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| openstackgerrit | Tuan Luong-Anh proposed openstack/governance master: Fix the format file name https://review.openstack.org/523008 | 03:28 |
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| openstackgerrit | Chris Dent proposed openstack/governance master: Remove redundant links in index.rst https://review.openstack.org/523121 | 13:16 |
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| smcginnis | fungi, TheJulia, cdent: Just reading backscroll and completely agree with you all. | 13:38 |
| smcginnis | pabelanger: You too. :) | 13:38 |
| cdent | smcginnis: which topic, or on everything we’ve ever said? | 13:38 |
| smcginnis | Yes, everything. :D No, the discussion about talking over people, having time to process a little, and running out of time before being able to speak up. | 13:39 |
| cdent | yeah | 13:40 |
| cdent | I think it is a problem that people who don’t experience it really don’t see | 13:40 |
| cdent | https://twitter.com/EdLeafe/status/933935019147411456 | 13:41 |
| smcginnis | I hadn't seen that response. True. | 13:45 |
| cdent | I think Ed was sufficiently on vacation at that time to express himself freely | 13:47 |
| smcginnis | :) | 13:47 |
| openstackgerrit | Juan Antonio Osorio Robles proposed openstack/governance master: Add tripleo-ipsec to tripleo deliverables https://review.openstack.org/523126 | 13:47 |
| cdent | It feels like there’s a bit of an emerging split between people who want more interaction/inclusion between the TC and board/ptls/everyone and those who are okay with the status quo. That doesn’t really capture what I’m trying to say accurately. | 13:48 |
| smcginnis | I'm not necessarily saying I want _more_ interaction. I just don't want to lose the current (albeit limited) amount we have. | 13:49 |
| * cdent nods | 13:50 | |
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| * amrith tunes in to the interesting conversation | 13:51 | |
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| cdent | amrith: the interesting bits are in the backlog from … friday? | 13:55 |
| amrith | cdent yes, I was watching that interaction | 13:56 |
| amrith | I want to listen; I have some thoughts on this status-quo/change insider/outsider issue | 13:56 |
| cdent | sounds like maybe you should speak for a bit and share those thoughts? | 13:57 |
| amrith | but want to listen to what others have to say which is why I said nada last week | 13:57 |
| cdent | Unless smcginnis is queueing up something massive, I think we’ve reached a lull | 13:57 |
| amrith | smcginnis always does that ... | 13:57 |
| * smcginnis is lulling | 13:58 | |
| cdent | at least you’re not LOLing | 13:58 |
| cmurphy | cdent: I feel like you could expand on your comment about the emerging split, I'm not sure that connects to the interrupt-driven discussion discussion | 13:58 |
| cmurphy | *how that | 13:58 |
| cdent | cmurphy: it was sort of tangential, but during the various conversations that have been going on in this channel, in twitter, and elsewhere, there’s a sense by which some think the existing styles of interaction are “okay” or “natural” and others think that even if it is natural, some work is required to be more actively inclusive | 14:00 |
| cmurphy | cdent: got it, thanks | 14:01 |
| cmurphy | cdent: so - do you have ideas on how to make these interactions more inclusive? short of dissolving the in-person meetings i'm not sure there's an action we could take on it | 14:02 |
| cdent | I think there are at least some people at the boundary of the issue can perhaps encourage the interruptors (etc) to be aware of their behavior | 14:03 |
| cdent | or to put it more generically (and weakly): consciousness raising | 14:04 |
| TheJulia | +1 | 14:06 |
| TheJulia | err, gah | 14:06 |
| * TheJulia glares at irccloud | 14:06 | |
| TheJulia | +1 still applies even though new lines appeared on my screen suddenly | 14:07 |
| cdent | TheJulia: what was it supposed to be in response to? | 14:08 |
| TheJulia | cmurphy's message to you from about 10 minutes ago | 14:09 |
| TheJulia | but then I also agree with your latest message | 14:09 |
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| fungi | everyone seems unusually agreeable this week | 14:25 |
| cdent | maybe the usa-based people are fat and sassily satisifed from thanksgiving? | 14:26 |
| fungi | i fear i can't blame the holiday for my present girth | 14:27 |
| fungi | nor mirth | 14:27 |
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| dhellmann | re-reading the logs from last thursday, I'm struggling to understand the purpose a new blog meets that isn't already met with our existing tools | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | I agree with cdent that "news" should go on the mailing list | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | "how to" content should go into project documentation | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | possibly announcing new dev features or techniques not tied to a specific project would make sense | 14:42 |
| dhellmann | otoh, that could also just go to the mailing list | 14:42 |
| cdent | dhellmann: I think the idea is to read people not on the mailing list | 14:43 |
| dhellmann | harlowja's idea was to write dev-focused content for readers outside of openstack, a sort of humble-brag thing | 14:43 |
| cdent | for _some_ things | 14:43 |
| cdent | yeah | 14:43 |
| dhellmann | and that makes some sense | 14:43 |
| dhellmann | I just question if we have people who want to write that sort of content who don't already have an outlet | 14:43 |
| mugsie | well, I think harlowja indicated he was one person who would, and does not have one. but that is a small sample size | 14:44 |
| dhellmann | rob creswell posted on twitter last week about having trouble keeping up with what other projects are doing | 14:44 |
| smcginnis | For me, it's people not on the mailing list, and a venue for a technical focused location for folks to go to that would get diluted with either the ML or the superuser blog. | 14:44 |
| cdent | there’s a difference between the stuff that josh wants and ttx wants. The stuff that josh wants could potentially be met by human curated syndication | 14:44 |
| cdent | the human factor is important | 14:45 |
| mugsie | cdent: ++ | 14:45 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : yeah, I find it difficult to believe harlowja doesn't have a way to have a blog | 14:45 |
| smcginnis | Maybe human curated syndication is really the answer. | 14:45 |
| dhellmann | cdent : right | 14:45 |
| mugsie | his example was http://blog.kubernetes.io/ - which is very different to super user | 14:45 |
| mugsie | and planet.o.o | 14:45 |
| dhellmann | if this is just a "PTL progress report" blog, then I'm not sure we want a blog for it | 14:45 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: I think that was a different discussion from the one I was talking about. | 14:46 |
| mugsie | the k8s one is human curated, technical overviews / news / feature showcase for people both in and outside the k8s community | 14:47 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : oh, I'm looking at http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2017-11-23.log.html#t2017-11-23T15:16:17 | 14:47 |
| mugsie | I am not sure we would have enough content though | 14:47 |
| mugsie | yeah, that was the ladt discussion, not the one that kicked it off though | 14:47 |
| mugsie | let me see if I can find it in my logs | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | I agree they're 2 different things | 14:48 |
| * dhellmann should finish reading thursday's logs | 14:48 | |
| cdent | dhellmann: the logs from thursday and friday last week were pretty chaotic (and interesting) | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | my comment on twitter was that this seems like another issue caused by the fact that we don't have active project managers | 14:51 |
| dhellmann | summarizing progress and project status is usually part of that role | 14:51 |
| dhellmann | we ask PTLs to be team leads, then dump a bunch of project management work on them | 14:52 |
| cdent | pms are starting to emerge, but more often than not the thing (e.g. placement) being managed grows without bound | 14:52 |
| dhellmann | what if we just ask a volunteer each cycle to keep up with that stuff and spread the info around? then it's not more work on PTLs | 14:52 |
| mugsie | PWG used to do some things like that - they used to interview PTLs and try and distil info. I havent seen it in a few cycles though | 14:55 |
| dhellmann | right, that never really felt like it was fully connected to what was actually happening on the ground | 14:57 |
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| dhellmann | regarding TC time at the PTG, I think the idea of having a time & place would be good but if we make it too much time then we have the problem of asking TC members to not participate in other discussions with their other teams, which is the issue I had in Denver | 14:59 |
| dhellmann | I'd like to see PTGBot tied in to twitter so I can subscribe to alerts | 14:59 |
| dhellmann | regarding the last BoD/TC meeting: The TC did seem unusually quiet this time. We've had more active discussions in the past. To some degree I think that was because the content was new to a lot of people, and it wasn't really clear what the impact was. I know the discussion of the foundation expansion was presented *very* differently to what I had seen in previous meetings. | 15:02 |
| * dhellmann has made it through thursday's logs | 15:03 | |
| cmurphy | i was definitely lacking context on that before going in | 15:03 |
| cmurphy | i was also really shocked that it was considered acceptable to run over time on topics | 15:03 |
| dhellmann | I was confused as hell, and I participated in one of the meetings where they were trying to write that presentation. | 15:03 |
| dhellmann | we've done worse, but we've definitely done better with time management | 15:04 |
| mugsie | dhellmann: yeah - what was presented was very watered down from slide decks I had seen floating around before. I knew what they were getting at, but only from seeing a diagram that was on a slide deck | 15:06 |
| dhellmann | right. I was no longer sure the proposal was in any way the same. | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | I made it to 1 out of 3 pre-meetings I think? so for all I knew things had taken a dramatic turn somewhere | 15:07 |
| cdent | cmurphy: there’s a rather mixed bag of attention to meeting formalisms, isn’t there? | 15:08 |
| mugsie | and, I am not sure that there was much anyone could say - it was more of a "we want to do x" vs "what do you think about doing x" | 15:08 |
| cmurphy | cdent: indeed | 15:08 |
| mugsie | that said I missed context of previous meetings, so that may have happened before | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | we probably didn't do a good job, as the tc, of making sure our new members were up to speed on what was going to be discussed | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | we're sort of used to lots of continuity, but that's a trap even if we don't have new members because not everyone is paying attention to all of the topics in advance anyway | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | so we should probably do some sort of "here's what this 1 line agenda item means" email before the meetings | 15:10 |
| cdent | that’s a good idea | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | if someone helps me remember I said I'd do that for Vancouver, I'll try :-) | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | at least for topics that aren't brand new, we do occasionally have those (like the at&t presentation) | 15:12 |
| mugsie | should we add a reminder bot here? :P | 15:12 |
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| dhellmann | oh, no, not another bot telling me what to do! | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | I already feel like I work for siri | 15:12 |
| cdent | dhellmann: i’ve stuck it on my reminder system defered and due may 1st | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | cdent : I suppose I could have just done that too, thanks | 15:13 |
| ttx | dhellmann: you do work for Siri | 15:13 |
| cdent | it’s more fun/useful/helpful/collaborative this way | 15:13 |
| * dhellmann sobs in acknowledgment of the truth | 15:13 | |
| cdent | assuming I or my computer don’t explode between now and then | 15:13 |
| smcginnis | One other thing I think contributes is the TC coming in half way through the daylong meeting. So for the BoD, it's just continuation of the morning. For the TC it's jumping in mid-stream. | 15:13 |
| smcginnis | So I think part of the feeling is, I don't want to bring up a question for something that was already discussed. | 15:14 |
| smcginnis | Whether that's really the case or not. | 15:14 |
| cdent | don’t cross the streams! | 15:14 |
| ttx | the timing of our elections is not optimal to get new members up to speed on topic that will be discussed on the TC+BoD meeting agenda | 15:14 |
| cdent | ttx we had some discussion of tweaking that a bit, if I recall? | 15:14 |
| smcginnis | But lacking the background, I'm not sure (see Foundation proposal which I thought I knew but then wasn't too sure based on actual presented material). | 15:14 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : I didn't pay close attention to how many people attended the whole day vs. just the joint session. Do you remember rough numbers? | 15:15 |
| cmurphy | the timing of the elections isn't optimal to make sure new members even get to the meeting | 15:15 |
| ttx | cdent: yes, asking for more global input | 15:15 |
| cmurphy | it was mostly by luck that i wasn't a day late | 15:15 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: I came in mid-day because I was helping with training in the morning, so I do not know. | 15:15 |
| dhellmann | cmurphy : good point | 15:15 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : yeah, I know several folks had other commitments but I wasn't sure how many | 15:16 |
| mugsie | The room for the joint session was a lot fuller than the board meeting | 15:16 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: Based on the seat shuffling, I think probably at least half of TC? | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | as far as speaking up goes, a bunch of the board and tc members have now been in joint meetings together many times so we feel more comfortable interjecting. that's not really fair to the folks who haven't been participating in those meetings for so long | 15:17 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis: that seems likely | 15:17 |
| dhellmann | the place I need to run my errands is now open, so I'm going to go do that. bbiab. | 15:17 |
| mugsie | as pointed out on Friday (?), relying on a culture of interjecting is not very inclusive | 15:18 |
| ttx | but again, I think the future of those meetings will be to have only a few TC members participate and represent | 15:19 |
| cdent | ttx I think that’s a step backwards | 15:20 |
| ttx | I don't believe in 30+ people meetings | 15:20 |
| cdent | Sure, but limiting the interaction of the board and _all_ of the TC seems bad (to me) | 15:21 |
| ttx | it's an antipattern that creates its own problems, like shy people not feeling ok to interject | 15:21 |
| cdent | I think that’s a misunderstanding of the situation. The fault is _needing_ to interject | 15:21 |
| cdent | But I also need to run some errands, so will have to come back to this. Will check the logs later | 15:22 |
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| mugsie | ttx: for that to be effective, you would need full documents distributed before the meeting. (this may not be a bad idea in general fwiw) | 15:24 |
| mugsie | in a chaired board meeting, if can be quite easy to ensure people get to speak | 15:24 |
| mugsie | but it requires the the chair to be an active chair, and distribute floor time | 15:25 |
| mugsie | there is reasons that we have things like Robert's Rules of Order for these style of meetings - to ensure that louder voices do not dominate. | 15:30 |
| ttx | The BoD+TC+UC+Staff thing is not a governance body, it's a communication tool. We don't need to decide or vote on anything... So I don't feel like everyone needs to be present | 15:30 |
| mugsie | the problem was not the size of the meeting, it was the style, and the people present | 15:31 |
| ttx | This meeting only exists because of the communication gap | 15:31 |
| mugsie | I have seen more order in meetings twice the size | 15:31 |
| cmurphy | mugsie: ++ it seems funny to me that a formal meeting like this suffers the same problems as the anything-goes style we have for design sessions | 15:31 |
| mugsie | cmurphy: yeah - cdent's post about the forum could apply to that meeting as well | 15:32 |
| ttx | we raise topics that we feel like the Board is not paying enough attention to, and they raise topics they feel like we don't pay enough attention to | 15:32 |
| ttx | usually each party listens politely while the other exposes their points | 15:33 |
| ttx | and I feel like most of the times the lines don't move much | 15:33 |
| ttx | Like when we expose our top 5 needs | 15:33 |
| ttx | or like when some board members expose their "priorities" | 15:34 |
| ttx | The only time where there was "one group" was during the workshop, because (1) there was a common exercise to follow and (2) wendar did a lot of preparation | 15:35 |
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| mugsie | well, these meeting will either a) stop, or b) need massive restructuring as we add new "projects" (is that the term for things like CI / Edge / etc? ) | 15:37 |
| ttx | "strategic focus area" is the workign totle | 15:37 |
| ttx | title | 15:37 |
| mugsie | as it may well be the only meeting of the tech leadership for the stratigic focus areas | 15:37 |
| ttx | migsyes | 15:38 |
| ttx | mugsie: yes | 15:38 |
| ttx | there will likely be a communication gap to solve there at some point | 15:39 |
| mugsie | My only frame of reference is that last meeting, but if previous ones were more controlled, and less intrupt driven, it may be OK going forward | 15:42 |
| mugsie | but I think it is worth trying to make the meeting more formal, which allows for scaling as we add more people, and ensures we can allow people to speak if they feel they need it. | 15:43 |
| ttx | basically if all we do is bring topics that we feel the other party is ignoring too much, just having a few members from each group present (with duty to report to teh rest of the group) might be a better use of people's time and travel. | 15:43 |
| ttx | but maybe I'm just burnt out from repeating the same thing over the years | 15:44 |
| mugsie | sure - but as said ^ we rely on contanuity a lot as it is, and that small group is likely to be the same people, purpetuating the issue. | 15:45 |
| ttx | I would rather rotate based on what the topic is... but yes I see your point | 15:46 |
| cmurphy | fwiw i won't feel sad about needing to attend fewer meetings :) | 15:46 |
| smcginnis | :) | 15:46 |
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| mugsie | the TC is already a small group, partly elected to represent the developers at things like this, so having an extra 6 people to help represent the thousands of ATC is not a bad idea | 15:50 |
| ttx | CNCF's TOC just merged rules for new projects acceptance: https://github.com/cncf/toc/blob/master/PRINCIPLES.md | 15:50 |
| ttx | Interesting read to spot the differences | 15:51 |
| cdent | ttx [t 3gMd] makes it sound a bit like you've given up? That's not really the case is it? | 15:53 |
| purplerbot | <ttx> and I feel like most of the times the lines don't move much [2017-11-27 15:33:51.101361] [n 3gMd] | 15:53 |
| ttx | cdent: I've given up on convincing people in the meeting. I doubled down on more informal / personal contacts | 15:54 |
| cdent | Yes, and that is the point I've been trying to make. That's exclusionary. | 15:54 |
| ttx | cdent: what do you suggest ? Continue hammering the same nails ? | 15:55 |
| ttx | We've been explaining that resources set priorities and not the other way around for as long as the board exists | 15:55 |
| ttx | and yet we still have weird discussions about "priorties for teh TC" at those meetings | 15:56 |
| cdent | Well it appears that at least some people would like us to be more formal about how the meeting is run: active chair. That suggests someone (you, me, cmurphy ?) needs to talk to the chair and express our concerns. | 15:56 |
| cdent | I don't know what the solution is, but I think it is clear the current situation is not okay. | 15:56 |
| ttx | cdent: I feel like the meeting is inefficient because there are no goals to it, not because of how the chair handle it | 15:58 |
| ttx | the board meeting is clear, you vote on motions | 15:59 |
| ttx | the TC/Board/UC/Staff meeting is more like open discussion | 15:59 |
| ttx | so yes the discussion could certainly be more inclusive, but in the end I don't feel we'd get more out of it | 15:59 |
| * ttx jumps to meeting | 16:00 | |
| cdent | I'll keep thinking on it and see if I can come up with something concrete to suggest. | 16:00 |
| smcginnis | Maybe we (the TC) need to be better about preparing ahead of time what we want our goals to be there. | 16:00 |
| cmurphy | I lean toward ttx's feelings, without a clear goal beyond "bring some things up" i'm not sure there's a need for everyone to be there or for there to be a drastic change in how it's run | 16:00 |
| openstackgerrit | Tytus Kurek proposed openstack/governance master: Add charm-interface-designate project https://review.openstack.org/517339 | 16:01 |
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| fungi | for the tech blog idea, i think we first need someone to characterize what the roles of superuser, the openstack blog and the openstack planet are, and then we can better see whether one of those can/should be expanded to support the desired content or whether a fourth needs to exist to fill in the gaps | 17:14 |
| ttx | fungi: yeah at this point we should probably kill the openstack blog, since it's a bit superseded by superuser | 17:15 |
| ttx | I'll bring it up to Lauren | 17:15 |
| openstackgerrit | Lance Bragstad proposed openstack/governance master: Update policy goal for cloudkitty https://review.openstack.org/523174 | 17:22 |
| smcginnis | I forgot there was such thing as the OpenStack blog. Maybe we just need to revive that and start using it for community/dev related things more. | 17:26 |
| smcginnis | fungi: I think you are right. With the resources you point out, it's almost more of a marketing thing that we need to make it clear what each resource is for. | 17:28 |
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| openstackgerrit | Kendall Nelson proposed openstack/governance master: Add Storyboard Migration to Rocky https://review.openstack.org/513875 | 18:02 |
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| harlowja | ok i'm back btw, turkey time over, lol | 19:00 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: stop linking to documentation from governance https://review.openstack.org/523195 | 19:04 |
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| * dims notes dhellmann trying to drag harlowja back into active duty :) | 19:12 | |
| harlowja | 10-4 | 19:13 |
| harlowja | i've been making a (slack and local telnet) bot that does all the openstack things | 19:13 |
| dims | :) | 19:14 |
| harlowja | so i don't have to, lol | 19:14 |
| harlowja | including smart response to alerts and stuff | 19:14 |
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| harlowja | and blah blah deployments | 19:14 |
| harlowja | and blah blah | 19:14 |
| harlowja | i'll get it opened eventually, lol | 19:14 |
| dims | nice :) | 19:14 |
| harlowja | dims but yes, i will get back on front-lines boss | 19:21 |
| harlowja | roger dodger | 19:22 |
| harlowja | lol | 19:22 |
| * harlowja starts packing bullets | 19:22 | |
| * harlowja puts on bullet proof vest | 19:23 | |
| harlowja | dhellmann the force is strong with u | 20:02 |
| harlowja | lol | 20:02 |
| fungi | harlowja, engineer and acquisitions editor for openstack blog | 20:02 |
| harlowja | the force is also strong with u fungi | 20:02 |
| harlowja | lol | 20:02 |
| dhellmann | harlowja : I'm not trying to *force* you to do anything ;-) | 20:02 |
| harlowja | :p | 20:02 |
| harlowja | wrong kind of force,lol | 20:02 |
| dhellmann | yes, bad pun | 20:02 |
| fungi | jedi mind trick maybe | 20:02 |
| dhellmann | heh | 20:03 |
| dhellmann | harlowja : fwiw, I was Acquisitions Editor for Python Magazine for a while and it was a blast. It gave me an excuse to walk up to random people at conferences and ask them questions about their work, so I learned about all sorts of interesting projects. | 20:04 |
| harlowja | hmmm | 20:04 |
| fungi | i _so_ hope you had a "press" card for your hatband | 20:05 |
| harlowja | do i get to turn into spiderman at the end | 20:05 |
| harlowja | lol | 20:05 |
| harlowja | pretty sure he was similar, lol | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | fungi : ha! no, but I did put "Python Magazine" on my badge a few times | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | harlowja : peter parker was only a photographer. Clark Kent was a reporter, though. | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | #knowyoursuperheros | 20:06 |
| fungi | knowing is half the battle | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | not giving away your diabolical plan in a gratuitous monologue goes a long way, too | 20:07 |
| harlowja | dhellmann damn, i thought peter parker did reporting to, guess u are right, lol | 20:07 |
| harlowja | so i guess i'll be clark 'josh' kent | 20:36 |
| harlowja | can i get that on my badge | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | harlowja : I'm sure that can be arranged, but I think you'll need to bring your own cape. | 20:41 |
| harlowja | i can handle that lol | 20:42 |
| dhellmann | although maybe diablo_rojo has one in the box of team picture props | 20:52 |
| smcginnis | What's a magazine? | 20:57 |
| smcginnis | :P | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : aw, man. too soon. | 21:01 |
| * dims hands harlowja his sydney openstack towel as his cape :) | 21:06 | |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add "champions and stewards" as a top-5 help wanted area https://review.openstack.org/510656 | 21:19 |
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| TheJulia | I will never want a cape after watching the incredibles... but the towel does seem like it would be an awesome cape! | 22:09 |
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| TheJulia | Oh, and on the subject of diabolical plans... the someone actually made a list many years ago of all the things to keep in mind as the evil overlord. | 22:10 |
| TheJulia | s/the someone// | 22:21 |
| * TheJulia just goes back to looking at review | 22:22 | |
| harlowja | lol | 23:01 |
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