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| tonyb | ttx: Has the election config been approved? can we +W https://review.openstack.org/#/c/506310/ ? | 00:11 |
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| ttx | tonyb: I asked for review, so they had their chance to comment, consider it +1 | 07:01 |
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| tonyb | ttx: okay thanks. | 09:16 |
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| ttx | Started the draft on last TC membership activity / vision progress https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/jpcEHdh9eU | 09:29 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy, cdent: iirc you were interested in helping with that draft | 09:30 |
| ttx | I seeded it with the stuff that got merged and some of the things we discussed at the PTG | 09:31 |
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| ttx | would be great to have it ready for tomorrow (or Monday) so tat we can post it next to the call for nominations | 09:32 |
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| johnthetubaguy | ttx: I should be able to take a look tomorrow | 09:59 |
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| ttx | getting tired of explaining to the PWG that external prioritization will never work | 13:31 |
| ttx | "Having a single priority list for projects" sigh | 13:32 |
| cdent | ttx it is a bit of a broken record | 13:34 |
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| cdent | however, that they keep doing it suggests that there’s an unstatisfied need | 13:34 |
| ttx | that need is called "control without investment" | 13:34 |
| cdent | there’s probably more than one | 13:35 |
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| cdent | if projects weren’t as backlogged as they are the situation might be different, including in terms of barriers to investment being lower | 13:36 |
| ttx | cdent: btw Started the draft on last TC membership activity / vision progress https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/jpcEHdh9eU | 13:36 |
| ttx | ICYMI in the backlog | 13:37 |
| cdent | ah, excellent | 13:37 |
| ttx | would be great to have it ready for tomorrow (or Monday) so that we can post it next to the call for nominations | 13:37 |
| cdent | I’ll stick it in my read queue for today | 13:37 |
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| johnthetubaguy | ttx: ++ on the PWG comment | 14:38 |
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| johnthetubaguy | ttx: I spent a lot of time on that discussion in vancover I think it was | 14:41 |
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| cdent | ttx, have read through https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/jpcEHdh9eU and made one long comment, and fixed a few typos | 14:44 |
| cdent | it really feels like there could be more there, but I’m not sure what, which depresses me somewhat | 14:45 |
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| ttx | cdent: te big thing missing is overall technical progress -- like saying how many projects are now supporting rolling upgrades or such | 14:47 |
| ttx | I focused on the TC direct achievements but I guess there could be space for that | 14:48 |
| cdent | should we add anything about which project-wide goals were approved or completed? | 14:49 |
| ttx | it's a bit staggered but ye | 14:49 |
| ttx | s | 14:49 |
| ttx | I mean, the Pike goals were decided before this membership, and implemented by others | 14:49 |
| cdent | I guess the progressive in me wants the document to answer “how has openstack changed because of the TC” and if the answer is “not much” then I feel like a conservative and I’ve let myself down :) | 14:49 |
| ttx | BTW should we have a session on constellations at the Forum ? | 14:50 |
| cdent | given that we need some sessions, I would say yes | 14:50 |
| ttx | we definitely need some brainstorm time around that | 14:50 |
| ttx | who was interested in pushing that that we could convince to file ? | 14:51 |
| ttx | anything more vision-related that we should add there ? | 14:51 |
| ttx | "Making OpenStack more palatable to part-time contributors", maybe ? | 14:52 |
| cdent | it’s certainly a topic that needs discussion | 14:52 |
| ttx | ok, I'll file that second one | 14:52 |
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| cdent | I meant to think some up this week, but have been swamped, will try some more tomorrow, or maybe today’s office hour will prompt something | 14:54 |
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| ttx | yay office hour | 15:01 |
| amrith | yeah | 15:01 |
| amrith | :) | 15:01 |
| * ttx gets his ping list | 15:01 | |
| ttx | should really have a bot for that | 15:02 |
| cdent | tc-members assemble! | 15:03 |
| ttx | As I mentioned earlier, at the PTG we said we should post something of a end-of-membership progress report along with the call to nominations for the TC election | 15:04 |
| ttx | draft is at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/jpcEHdh9eU for those interested in helping | 15:04 |
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| EmilienM | hello | 15:04 |
| ttx | Also the deadline for forum topic submission is tomorrow, so if there is anything you'd like to discuss I encourage you to post there | 15:05 |
| ttx | I filed a couple | 15:05 |
| cdent | I was going to mention LTS, but it’s already there | 15:06 |
| ttx | Need one volunteer to lead Constellations brainstorming | 15:06 |
| fungi | count me in for the palatable to part-time contributors discussion. that's my primary reason for pushing on the icla->dco work in the coming cycle | 15:06 |
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| ttx | great! | 15:06 |
| amrith | ttx ... I have a quick item for the meeting once you are done with whatever you are (now) up to. | 15:06 |
| fungi | also i'm well-placed to field the inevitable "why doesn't openstack just move development to gh?" sort of questions ;) | 15:07 |
| EmilienM | is it a meeting ? :-) | 15:07 |
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| cdent | I’ll put myself in as a backup on constellations, but if I can avoid it, I don’t want to lead as I’ve got a few other irons in the fire, so if nothing is in place by tomorrow evening, I’ll add something | 15:07 |
| ttx | amrith: feel free to say anything | 15:07 |
| smcginnis | fungi: :) | 15:07 |
| fungi | EmilienM: when people come together in a common venue, it's technically "a meeting" ;) | 15:08 |
| fungi | if an informal one in this case | 15:08 |
| amrith | making a paste | 15:08 |
| EmilienM | fungi: you win :P | 15:08 |
| cdent | semanticsRus | 15:08 |
| EmilienM | fungi: I was still in the corridor ;-) | 15:08 |
| smcginnis | ttx, fungi: I'm interested in the part time contributor discussion. Been doing onboarding talks at openstack days and helping the upstream institute stuff where I can. | 15:08 |
| fungi | smcginnis: awesome! | 15:09 |
| fungi | oh, and in case i don't respond in a timely fashion during office hour today, we started the zuul v3 cutover outage at the same time (zuul v2 is currently completely offline) | 15:09 |
| * ttx wonders if a ptgbot hackathon would be ontopic for forum | 15:10 | |
| ttx | probably a bit overspecific | 15:10 |
| smcginnis | ttx: That could be fun! | 15:10 |
| * ttx continues to go down his todo list | 15:10 | |
| cdent | I guess sometime between now and summit I’m going to need to come up with some topics on the community health thing, I guess chatting with alison is a way forward on that? | 15:10 |
| fungi | ttx: granted, less disruptive than the informal ptg hackathon we had going on at the ptg ;) | 15:10 |
| fungi | er, ptgbot hackathon | 15:10 |
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| amrith | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/488947/ | 15:11 |
| amrith | Had a chat with dims and fungi at last TC office hours re: the above issue (Trove maintenance mode). I’ve put it down to WF-1 with the understanding that the current team will be working on trying to improve things. I’ll leave things like single vendor, lack of diversity up to someone else to decide. In parallel, I am advancing the other project that I’ve been working on; called Hoard. | 15:11 |
| smcginnis | amrith: ++ | 15:11 |
| ttx | amrith: you should know better than take my cues on project naming | 15:11 |
| fungi | it does definitely sound like trove will lack diversity of affiliation for core reviewers in the coming months, so wouldn't be a bad idea to get that updated | 15:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | amrith: did you do a blog post of something on Trove vs Hoard? I am curious about the lessons learnt. | 15:12 |
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| amrith | I did not | 15:12 |
| amrith | will explain | 15:12 |
| amrith | I don't want to poison the well, is the short version. | 15:13 |
| ttx | also please all note that Cyborg will be approved tomorrow morning unless we have new objections | 15:14 |
| ttx | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/504940/ | 15:14 |
| amrith | hence I was hoping the maintenance mode patch would land. | 15:14 |
| amrith | But, since it didn't I will in effect be poisoning that well. | 15:14 |
| amrith | which I'm not happy about, but so be it. I play the hand I have been dealt. | 15:15 |
| cdent | cyborg++ | 15:16 |
| cdent | amrith: I’m not following. What’s the poison? | 15:17 |
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| * mordred waves to everyone | 15:17 | |
| * mordred hopes everyone enjoys our new Zuul v3 overlords | 15:17 | |
| cdent | yay! | 15:17 |
| dims | mordred : emerging from the dungeons after slaying the v2 beast | 15:17 |
| smcginnis | mordred: Is it done? | 15:18 |
| amrith | cdent if there's a team that is trying to get trove to run again (big hill, not good odds) and another new project comes along and says we fix those problems ... | 15:18 |
| mordred | smcginnis: it is currently processing | 15:18 |
| smcginnis | https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjI6hkw6nbYNQkz6/giphy.gif | 15:18 |
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| cdent | amrith: I think we over-estimate the cost of multiple approaches to similar problems. We should look at many of these efforts as research, not solutions | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | the problem I worry about with replacements / winners is the moving costs for users | 15:22 |
| cdent | that’s a valid concern, but in the case where we have two things neither of which are done or hugely deployed…? | 15:22 |
| cdent | (that is trove v hoard is different from the (not actually real) glance v glare concern) | 15:23 |
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| amrith | cdent yes, but I think that is a technical perspective (IMHO). From a customer (user) perspective though, this is a concern; saying that there are problems of a significant nature that warrant a new project, the lack of continuity (API, team), etc., are things that raise red flags. | 15:24 |
| mordred | cdent, amrith: *user hat on* only main concern Ihave is that different approaches have different service-type entries | 15:24 |
| cdent | mordred: :) | 15:24 |
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| mordred | as long as hoard doesn't try to use the same service-type as trove, I think it'll all be good | 15:25 |
| amrith | mordred yes, started that conversation with dean troyer (briefly). so long as a user doesn't install both, hoard can use the same service name (in keystone) if I understand your comment correctly. Same with client. | 15:25 |
| mordred | nononononononono | 15:26 |
| mordred | nononononononononononono | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | oh, no, no | 15:26 |
| amrith | mordred ... I do (currently) intend to register service 'database'. | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | hoard will have a new name and a new service type | 15:26 |
| mordred | plesae do not | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | it is a different thing | 15:26 |
| ttx | no no oh no | 15:26 |
| mordred | 'user' in this case means two diferent things | 15:26 |
| amrith | ok, is 'dbaas' OK | 15:26 |
| mordred | user as in deployer is a person who can make a choice to install hoard or trove | 15:26 |
| amrith | so, hoard registers as service 'dbaas' | 15:26 |
| mordred | user as a consumer can't | 15:27 |
| mordred | amrith: awesome | 15:27 |
| cdent | according to server-types-authority, only one project can have any service type | 15:27 |
| smcginnis | amrith: I like that. Kind of a good differentiation between the two if I remember your goal right. | 15:27 |
| mordred | cdent: yah- unless a second project was intending on being a completely compatible second implementation - and so far we haven't had anyone want to do that | 15:27 |
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| amrith | mordred: +1, no intent to make them compatible | 15:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | cdent: +1 your comment, its a different conversation for those two cases | 15:28 |
| fungi | also "replacement" is a strong word there... it's a competing implementation but one provider could offer both in parallel and let users choose which they want to use | 15:29 |
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| fungi | unlike, say, replacing the image storing backend for nova | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | ttx: the draft email looks ok, assuming the comments about line 13 are resolved | 15:29 |
| amrith | fungi as a project, I would strongly urge against that; for example, I'd use the same openstack 'CLI' words. Like openstack database create. | 15:30 |
| amrith | At least, that's the first part of a conversation with Dean. | 15:31 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: fixed | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ++ | 15:32 |
| mordred | amrith: well - from a shade perspective (and an ansible perspective) - we should chat about what that means semantically | 15:32 |
| mordred | amrith: we totally paper over different backend implementations of the same thign at the shade layer - such as hiding whether nova or neutron is responsible for security groups on a cloud | 15:33 |
| mordred | amrith: BUT - a nova security group and a neutron security group are *basically* the same thing so can be semantically normalized | 15:34 |
| amrith | mordred sure. None of this (to be clear) represents a cornerstone of any kind of design. so let's definitely discuss it more. | 15:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: I like the content of the etherpad now, will think on what is missing, can't think of anything right now | 15:34 |
| mordred | amrith: if a trove database and a hoard database can also be reasonably semantically normalized into an end-user 'database' object | 15:34 |
| amrith | yes, a trove database cluster and a hoard database cluster would be totally different things. | 15:34 |
| mordred | amrith: nod. so we'll want to figure out some good english to use to describe them | 15:34 |
| amrith | so 'openstack database create' would do very different things depending on the backend. | 15:34 |
| amrith | and I was hoping I could prescriptively say that it is 'trove' or 'hoard' but never the twain shall meet. Hence share the service type (database), ... | 15:35 |
| cdent | amrith: so is hoard “build me a database cluster” not “give me a database url”? | 15:35 |
| mordred | amrith: yah- in that case I would not have cloud.create_database be a front end for either/or and would likely try to come up with good english | 15:35 |
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| amrith | cdent hoard would be a mix of things, it could be as little as 'build me the infrastructure for a database cluster and I'll make the cluster and get the URL through some vendor specified tool' to 'get me a database cluster URL'. | 15:36 |
| cdent | that sounds like a lot of different things | 15:36 |
| amrith | specifically, with cassandra (for example). If you used the community one, you could build the cluster and hand back a URL. But some people want to use DSE with its management UI. In that case you leave it up to the user to build the cluster. | 15:37 |
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| amrith | yes, they are two very different things but both are dbaas use-cases and Trove was not able to address because it insisted on the 'I will get you the URL' approach. | 15:37 |
| amrith | if I have a cluster of resources, the DSE management tool can't (and Datastax has shown no interest in improving it to) provision resources in OpenStack. | 15:38 |
| amrith | a very important use case for us at Verizon is the ability to orchestrate a set of resources that will be compute, storage and networking, including the DSE components, and use the DSE management UI to make and manage the cluster. But, use OpenStack for resource provisioning. | 15:39 |
| cdent | I guess my question is mostly around satisfying the most generic use case: “I’m a user who wants to store some data in a SQL database and I expect _you_ to keep it performant but don’t care about anything else” | 15:39 |
| amrith | cdent that particular use case is something which hoard will support. yes. | 15:39 |
| amrith | to be precise, Trove was intended to be a framework within which that could be satisfied. Hoard will similarly be a framework within which that can be implemented. Where hoard will extend trove is that Trove was a rigid framework; it would be the ONLY management interface to manage a cluster. | 15:40 |
| amrith | Hoard will not take that position; it will allow for coexistance with other management mechanisms. | 15:40 |
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| amrith | cdent mordred fungi ^^ | 15:45 |
| * cdent nods | 15:45 | |
| fungi | thanks for the clarification | 15:46 |
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| amrith | so ... mordred cdent fungi ttx - what do you folks recommend? That I put up a spec for review and have the members of the TC review also? or have this discussion at a specific time at the tc office hours, something else. I'd hate to go a long way and be walking off into no mans land for no good reason. | 15:58 |
| cdent | amrith: spec for reviewing what in particular? the existence of hoard or something else? | 15:58 |
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| amrith | cdent, both, but independently. for hoard to exist or not in the short term is not so much of a review as my pushing up a skeleton of a project. But the approach and the way it fits into the openstack world. | 16:00 |
| amrith | for example, the namespace to use in openstack CLI | 16:00 |
| amrith | for example, the service name | 16:00 |
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| amrith | I'd hate to be much farther along and then find that these are things I could have fixed at the beginning | 16:00 |
| cdent | amrith, starting another meeting, will come back to this when I can | 16:01 |
| ttx | I guess you could set up a "hoard-specs" repo and push base design there for review | 16:02 |
| smcginnis | That might be a good way to start. | 16:02 |
| ttx | but i'm not sure we can promise now that it will be approved as official whenever proposed | 16:02 |
| amrith | thx ttx, smcginnis cdent | 16:02 |
| amrith | ttx, understood. | 16:02 |
| amrith | but to be clear, if it is about the name, ttx chose that :) | 16:03 |
| dhellmann | as far as the service type, there's a team managing that list in a separate repo, so they're the ones to talk to about good names | 16:03 |
| ttx | also imply the ML in early design review | 16:03 |
| smcginnis | amrith: I do like the name. ;) | 16:03 |
| amrith | smcginnis take it up with ttx, he's the boss of me | 16:03 |
| amrith | ttx, understood re: ML | 16:03 |
| smcginnis | hah | 16:04 |
| mordred | amrith: yah - and I think discussing semantics of the differences so that we can know what sort of UI we can provide to users so that we don't wind up with trove/hoard being a nova-net/neutron level of fun | 16:04 |
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| amrith | mordred YES! thanks, I'll push up specs and will be advertising broadly | 16:16 |
| dtroyer | dang, my apologies for missing this discussuin… | 16:17 |
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| amrith | hi dtroyer ... I took your name a couple of times. | 16:18 |
| amrith | signed you up for a bunch of things, including providing nice t-shirts for the team. | 16:18 |
| dtroyer | re the resource naming, what I recall talking about is where hoard and trove resources overlap (similar to security groups) we could look at common resource names | 16:18 |
| * dtroyer just finished reading scrollback | 16:18 | |
| amrith | YUP. the consensus is that I should write these up in more detail into a spec and use the normal review process (with more specifics and details). | 16:19 |
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| dtroyer | amrith: I think it is a good idea to flesh out some of that early on, expected resource names and actions peerformed against them, to see how things fall out | 16:19 |
| amrith | what we talked about was at a high level and when the rubber meets the road, we may find that we have to change that approach. | 16:19 |
| amrith | so while we think (now) that we could come up with common resource names, we may figure that it is too much of a pain and just have hoard use new names. | 16:20 |
| dtroyer | sure, but like you said, there will be some things that can and should be sorted early to make everyones lives better down the road, sounds like you are heading there | 16:20 |
| amrith | fine with that, would like to know early; hence the conversations early. | 16:20 |
| amrith | yup | 16:20 |
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| cdent | amrith: the sad but true is that any writing you do will only limit, not remove, the possibility that down the road someone will say “this is not what we need”, “you’re doing it completely wrong” or any of the variants on those themes | 16:36 |
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| amrith | cdent, understood. | 16:54 |
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