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| ttx | Stable team meeting today at 15:00 UTC on #openstack-meeting-4 to discuss proposing a separate team. Feel free to join | 09:05 |
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| mriedem | huzzah | 15:03 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 15:03 |
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| Jokke_ | o/ | 15:03 |
| ttx | I'm pretty sure they didn't book that slot. I'll flame them later | 15:03 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 15:03 |
| ttx | So | 15:04 |
| dhellmann | ttx: they're 12 hours off, according to my calendar | 15:04 |
| ttx | team scope | 15:04 |
| ttx | 1. Policy enforcement and definition | 15:04 |
| ttx | That includes defining and applying tags, since they are the weapon we can wield | 15:05 |
| ttx | The idea being to try to make sure teams that pretend to follow policy are actually following policy | 15:05 |
| mriedem | i agree with that one | 15:05 |
| Jokke_ | ++ | 15:05 |
| ttx | could be some periodc review, can't be all the time | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | apuimedo: ++ | 15:05 |
| mriedem | i usually gauge by ML shame | 15:06 |
| dhellmann | oops, just ++ | 15:06 |
| ttx | 2. Help projects | 15:06 |
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| ttx | That's answering questions, encouraging releases, doing doc...) | 15:06 |
| ttx | 3. Keep CI working on stable | 15:06 |
| ttx | That's pretty essential, I think the team can't work if they don't take that one | 15:07 |
| flaper87 | number #3 takes quite some time and it's super important! | 15:07 |
| ttx | yeah, number doesn't mean priority | 15:07 |
| mriedem | 3 also ties into 1 | 15:07 |
| mriedem | b/c if 1 sucks, 3 suffers | 15:07 |
| ttx | 4. Mentoring/growing the team (shamelessly stolen from mriedem's priorities) | 15:08 |
| ttx | 5. Improve tooling/automation | 15:08 |
| mriedem | fin? | 15:09 |
| ttx | That's all I had. In particular, deciding on stable support timeframes is *not* in team scope. That needs alignment between Infra, QA and Stable, and would be arbitrated at TC level if there is disagreement | 15:09 |
| flaper87 | One of the things I'd like to see coming out of this new team is #5 | 15:09 |
| Jokke_ | ttx: +++ | 15:09 |
| ttx | So am I missing something ? | 15:09 |
| flaper87 | It'd be super cool for the PTL of this team to lead those efforts | 15:09 |
| mriedem | i'm happy to hear about timeframes not being in scope | 15:09 |
| ttx | mriedem: I think it's good to explicitly spell it out, otherwise the team will be under a lot of pressure | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | deciding time frames isn't, but enforcing might be (coordinating with the infra team) | 15:10 |
| mriedem | yes, i'm already getting direct emails on keeping juno around | 15:10 |
| ttx | mriedem: I think I have a good idea of where those come from | 15:10 |
| ttx | anyway, if we agree on team scope I think we can move on | 15:11 |
| mriedem | i think we have 2 main gaps for #5 so agree with flaper87 there | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | that's a good list of initial priorities | 15:11 |
| mriedem | yeah i think those are good points | 15:11 |
| Jokke_ | I'd like to slam 2 and 4 together ... I really think inclusion and through that mentoring and growing the stable team would be the key to also grow the part of that team that does the gate fixing | 15:11 |
| ttx | Jokke_: yes, the pool of $project-stable-maint people is the natural recuitment ground | 15:11 |
| ttx | So next topic is membership / voters | 15:12 |
| ttx | What would constitute "contribution" to the team and grant voters one vote for PTL elections ? | 15:12 |
| ttx | I'm fine including all $project-stable-maint + stable-maint-core | 15:12 |
| ttx | although that feels a bit self-selected | 15:13 |
| Jokke_ | ttx: I'd like to see that happening at the beginning | 15:13 |
| mriedem | does stable-maint-core stay a separate thing? i assumed it would. | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | ttx: landing a patch on a stable branch of any project managed by the team? | 15:13 |
| bknudson | you could also include anyone that's proposed a patch to stable | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | bknudson : jinkx | 15:13 |
| flaper87 | mmh, what about we start small and open for volunteers ? | 15:14 |
| mriedem | yeah i'm not sure if we're talking about stable-maint-core right now or voting rights? | 15:14 |
| mriedem | since i think those are different thigns | 15:14 |
| Jokke_ | bknudson: I was thinking of that as well, but that just could send wrong signal | 15:14 |
| mriedem | *things | 15:14 |
| ttx | mriedem: stable-maint-core... that's more of a failsafe to be able to quickly land gate-unblocking patches and -2 obviously-wrong things when people escalate questions to the team | 15:14 |
| Jokke_ | mriedem: I think we're talking about stuff like who can vote for the Stable PTL | 15:15 |
| ttx | mriedem: should definitely be refactored | 15:15 |
| ttx | Jokke_: +1 | 15:15 |
| mriedem | ttx: ok, i wasn't sure if you were suggesting we make all $project-stable-maint part of stable-maint-core now | 15:15 |
| ttx | mriedem: oh no, membership to the team as in "who votes" | 15:15 |
| mriedem | ok, then yeah, +1 on that | 15:15 |
| ttx | not membership to stable-maint-core | 15:16 |
| Jokke_ | ++ | 15:16 |
| ttx | (stable-maint-core destiny shall be decided later, it's a tool) | 15:16 |
| ttx | So... authors of stable patches on managed teams ? | 15:16 |
| ttx | One issue with that is... | 15:17 |
| ttx | It means we have "managed teams" | 15:17 |
| ttx | I thought we would only have "compliant teams" | 15:17 |
| mriedem | right....nova-docker has a stable/icehouse still... | 15:17 |
| mriedem | but would not work | 15:17 |
| ttx | could be "any stable patch on any compliant team" | 15:18 |
| mriedem | and compliant teams are tagged in the governance repo? | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | ttx: sure, teams with the tag managed by the stable team | 15:18 |
| Jokke_ | so which way we want to look this? Do we want to include people who got their patch backported by someone to the stable team, or people who actively backports suitable patches | 15:18 |
| ttx | or $project-stable-maint + at least 2 patches for a "compliant team" | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | Jokke_ : the person doing the backport | 15:18 |
| flaper87 | latest sounds better | 15:18 |
| Jokke_ | so committer, not author | 15:19 |
| flaper87 | patch owner | 15:19 |
| ttx | yeah, we always look at owner | 15:19 |
| * dhellmann isn't sure if owner==committer or owner==author | 15:19 | |
| ttx | it's a separate concept | 15:19 |
| dhellmann | k | 15:19 |
| mriedem | committer i think | 15:19 |
| Jokke_ | ok ... that works, just wanted to confirm as author stays original with backports | 15:19 |
| ttx | gerrit owner vs. git author/committer | 15:20 |
| Jokke_ | dhellmann: you cannot make either assumption | 15:20 |
| ttx | would one backport be enough to vote ? Slightly concerned about crazy numbers of voters here | 15:20 |
| mriedem | that's how ATCs are handled, so.. | 15:20 |
| ttx | yeah, fair | 15:21 |
| mriedem | seems if you're going to open it up to people that backport and land a change, | 15:21 |
| mriedem | it's the same | 15:21 |
| Jokke_ | I'd like to see bit more activity, so we don't get just those drive by backporters hoping for voting rights | 15:21 |
| bknudson | I don't think it's going to be a large number based on keystone | 15:21 |
| bknudson | It might just be OpenStack Proposal Bot that gets to vote. | 15:21 |
| mriedem | yeah, honestly, most drive by backport people are not even knowing this is a thing we're discussing | 15:21 |
| stevemar | i'd agree with that statement mriedem | 15:22 |
| ttx | so... until we get the tags straight, I propose we use release:managed as a substitute for stable:compliant | 15:22 |
| ttx | if we need to run an election now for example | 15:22 |
| Jokke_ | mriedem: I'm more worried company XYZ pushing every team member to do a backport so they get maximum amount of voting power | 15:23 |
| mriedem | how far back does the backport thing go? active stable branches? or also EOL? | 15:23 |
| ttx | Jokke_: we'd likely be able to spot that | 15:23 |
| bknudson | that would be awesome if a company got interested in backporting | 15:23 |
| stevemar | bknudson: hehe | 15:23 |
| ttx | mriedem: active stable branches | 15:23 |
| mriedem | ok | 15:23 |
| ttx | mriedem: so at the end of liberty elections, we'd do stable/liberty stable/kilo | 15:24 |
| ttx | err | 15:24 |
| dhellmann | Jokke_ : they have to *land* the backports | 15:24 |
| ttx | at the N elections at the end of the mitaka cycle we'd do stable/liberty and stable/kilo | 15:25 |
| Jokke_ | so do we limit the membership to 1 cycle and all supported stable branches in it? | 15:25 |
| ttx | elections are at the end of a cycle, so current stable branches then | 15:25 |
| bknudson | I prefer all active. There might just not be a lot of fixes required for 1 cycle back. | 15:25 |
| ttx | all active | 15:25 |
| mriedem | +1 | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | yeah, it would be simpler to say all active branches | 15:26 |
| Jokke_ | ttx: so for N stable/[liberty,kilo,juno] within mitaka cycle | 15:26 |
| ttx | OK, agreed: membership is recent owners of backports on any stable branch active by election time | 15:26 |
| ttx | Jokke_: I wouldn't count Juno, but I think it's a detail | 15:27 |
| ttx | I guess we could say "active during the cycle" | 15:27 |
| mriedem | heh, i guess it depends on when you hold the election | 15:27 |
| Jokke_ | I'd like that as there is overlap between start of cycle and EOL | 15:28 |
| ttx | membership is last 6 months worth of backport owners on active stable branches | 15:28 |
| Jokke_ | that++ | 15:28 |
| ttx | by definition if you did the backport then those were active branches | 15:28 |
| dhellmann | how far back do we go for other teams? | 15:28 |
| ttx | dhellmann: 6 months | 15:28 |
| dhellmann | k | 15:28 |
| flaper87 | ++ | 15:28 |
| ttx | err, checking | 15:29 |
| * flaper87 has to drop now! | 15:29 | |
| dhellmann | are we at risk of having a stable branch removed before the electorate is calculated? | 15:29 |
| flaper87 | super happy to see this team kicking off! | 15:29 |
| * Daviey_ is here now... Reading scrollback | 15:29 | |
| ttx | dhellmann: actually it's "last 2 cycles" | 15:29 |
| mriedem | Daviey_: are you connected via OnStar? | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | ttx: that's what I thought I remembered | 15:29 |
| ttx | "Members who committed a change to a repository of a project over the last two | 15:29 |
| ttx | 6-month release cycles are considered APC for that project team." | 15:29 |
| ttx | oh, well, make that a year then | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | so even after we remove the stable/juno branch at the end of november we'll need a way to determine who contributed patches to it so we can produce the electorate for the N cycle | 15:30 |
| ttx | dhellmann: the branch may be removed, the data is still there thanks to the tag ? | 15:30 |
| dhellmann | I think that's right, yes | 15:30 |
| ttx | anyway, technical detail | 15:30 |
| bknudson | master..juno-eol | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | I'm not sure how fungi's scripts do that now. It may not be a big deal. | 15:31 |
| ttx | Alright so... membership is last year worth of backport owners on active stable branches | 15:31 |
| ttx | Next topic is PTL candidates. Two people stepped up for leading the team, Jokke_ and mriedem | 15:32 |
| * dhellmann is impressed with the amount of interest | 15:33 | |
| ttx | I think both would do great, although I think mriedem experience with fixing stable gate might be critically useful as we set up the team, to set the tone there | 15:33 |
| Daviey_ | Two great candidates! but i agree that mriedem's visibility and willingness to own technical issues is +1. | 15:33 |
| ttx | We can hold an election if both want to run | 15:34 |
| ttx | I'd say Jokke_ has more experience with stable policy, but that's more of a traditional skill of the team | 15:35 |
| ttx | so I'm slightly less worried on that side | 15:36 |
| Jokke_ | I'm still up for it and gotta say that which ever way it turn at least I will be happy member of the new team :) | 15:36 |
| Daviey_ | Seems reasonable to hold an election. | 15:36 |
| ttx | totally | 15:36 |
| Jokke_ | I'm really happy that I wasn't the only one | 15:36 |
| ttx | OK, I can call for other candidates and try to set up something | 15:37 |
| ttx | or call for candidates and have you post, for reference | 15:38 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ++ to having each candidate post for reference | 15:38 |
| ttx | Wondering about the order now. Should we get the team blessed first ? Or have a PTL ? | 15:39 |
| ttx | probably have a ptl | 15:39 |
| dhellmann | ttx: one of the requirements for an official team is having a leader | 15:39 |
| dhellmann | it's not clear how much stock we put in the election itself | 15:40 |
| ttx | yeah | 15:40 |
| ttx | alright, so actions... I'll call for candidates (and explain the voting membership) on a thread soon | 15:40 |
| ttx | I'll document team scope on the wiki somewhere for reference | 15:41 |
| Jokke_ | ttx: sounds good | 15:41 |
| ttx | and we'll wait for the PTL to be selected to formally propose the team for inclusion as an official project | 15:41 |
| ttx | (no hurry on that) | 15:41 |
| dhellmann | ttx: should we put the team scope in the project team guide instead of wiki? | 15:42 |
| ttx | until then, the Release team is fine hosting the project if anything is needed | 15:42 |
| ttx | dhellmann: maybe yes | 15:42 |
| ttx | If everybody is fine with it | 15:42 |
| Daviey_ | ttx: How about you be interim leader until the election? | 15:42 |
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| ttx | Daviey_: so that we speed up team adoption ? I don't think it needs to be sped up that much | 15:43 |
| mriedem | so there can be a lightning rod for keeping juno around for another year | 15:44 |
| mriedem | :) | 15:44 |
| ttx | and I think the new leader will signal that the team changed (rather than keep the same lead from last cycle and call it separate) | 15:44 |
| Jokke_ | dhellmann: are you ok hosting stable under the wings of release until the paperwork is done? :P | 15:44 |
| dhellmann | Jokke_ : sure | 15:44 |
| Daviey | ttx: fair enough | 15:44 |
| ttx | Daviey: in practice, dhellmann is the lead until we spin out | 15:44 |
| ttx | Alright, I have all the points I wanted to cover | 15:45 |
| ttx | Questions ? Thoughts, Comments ? | 15:45 |
| Jokke_ | ttx: thanks for taking the lead on this | 15:46 |
| dhellmann | thanks again to mriedem and Jokke_ for stepping up as leaders, and to everyone else who is interested in participating in the new stable team | 15:46 |
| Daviey | ttx: I think we could do with summarizing the outcome of this meeting. | 15:46 |
| ttx | Have a few things I think we'll need to work on soon -- like rewrapping stable-maint-core, evolve how to manage additions to $project-stable-maint, and replacing the horrible has-stable-maint tag by something about policy compliance | 15:46 |
| dhellmann | Daviey : ++ | 15:47 |
| ttx | Daviey: I'll summarize it as part if the PTL nomination email | 15:47 |
| ttx | a.k.a. "here are the rules of the game, wanna play ?" | 15:47 |
| Jokke_ | ttx: ehat do you mena by rewrapping stable-maint-core? | 15:47 |
| Jokke_ | what even | 15:47 |
| ttx | Jokke_: cleaning it up | 15:48 |
| Jokke_ | ttx: oh, that's stale as well? :( | 15:48 |
| ttx | Like I said earlier, it's a failsafe group, doesn't need to keep inactive members around | 15:48 |
| Jokke_ | ttx: indeed | 15:48 |
| ttx | OK, looks like we are done. Thanks everyone for gathering on such short notice | 15:49 |
| Jokke_ | thanks | 15:49 |
| bknudson | and on thanksgiving week no less. | 15:49 |
| ttx | I'll get that email done before tomorrow morning | 15:50 |
| ttx | bknudson: thanksgiwhat? | 15:50 |
| ttx | Alright, consider the meeting over, even if it was not started | 15:50 |
| ttx | And now I'll troll the Kuryr meeting | 15:50 |
| jordanP | :) | 15:50 |
| Daviey | ttx: thanks! | 15:52 |
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| ttx | Jokke_, mriedem: sent the PTL self-nomination opening email at http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/080249.html | 17:12 |
| mriedem | ok, thanks | 17:12 |
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| Jokke_ | ttx: thnx, got it | 17:21 |
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| mriedem | anyone for a +W so i can continue backporting this? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/247825/ | 18:47 |
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