| *** david-lyle is now known as david-lyle_afk | 00:13 | |
| *** matt_____ is now known as mattoliverau | 08:39 | |
| *** asalkeld has joined #openstack-relmgr-office | 08:58 | |
| asalkeld | hi ttx | 08:58 |
|---|---|---|
| ttx | #startmeeting ptl_sync | 08:58 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 18 08:58:47 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:58 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:58 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ptl_sync' | 08:58 |
| ttx | #topic Heat | 08:58 |
| ttx | asalkeld: o/ | 08:59 |
| asalkeld | hey, first timer here | 08:59 |
| asalkeld | be gentle | 08:59 |
| asalkeld | :-) | 08:59 |
| ttx | My first question would be, do you plan to follow release management stuff directly, or would you prefer to delegate that to a release management liaison | 08:59 |
| ttx | ? | 08:59 |
| asalkeld | for now, me | 09:00 |
| ttx | cool. | 09:00 |
| asalkeld | we are having a weekly meeting | 09:00 |
| asalkeld | and i'll bring it up | 09:00 |
| asalkeld | (if anyone else wants to do it) | 09:00 |
| ttx | Second question -- about how we curate the blueprint list in LP | 09:00 |
| asalkeld | ok, I think i need to tweek some | 09:01 |
| ttx | As you know we use the "milestone target" field to curate per-milestone list of stuf being done | 09:01 |
| ttx | problem is, Launchpad lets anyone set that field | 09:01 |
| ttx | so we use a combination of priority *and* target milestone | 09:01 |
| ttx | only project drivers can set priority | 09:02 |
| ttx | so I have a script that will automatically remove from the milestone any unprioritized blueprint | 09:02 |
| asalkeld | i think i need to read this: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/PTL_Guide#Blueprints | 09:02 |
| ttx | For example, on https://launchpad.net/heat/+milestone/kilo-1 ... there are 3 undefined | 09:02 |
| ttx | (two of them implemented, so probably safe :) | 09:02 |
| ttx | I can run that script on a crontab, and it will automatically clean up the list | 09:03 |
| ttx | so that only the stuff you vet appears there | 09:03 |
| asalkeld | ttx, does anything automatically happen when a spec is approved? | 09:03 |
| asalkeld | or is there a way for me to figure out what is out of sync | 09:04 |
| ttx | asalkeld: nothing at thius point. I have another script that can set the blueprint fields for you on spec approval | 09:04 |
| asalkeld | nice | 09:04 |
| ttx | but it's not trigfgered automatically | 09:04 |
| ttx | and I need to rebase it | 09:04 |
| ttx | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/release-tools/tree/spec2bp.py | 09:04 |
| asalkeld | checking all the bp's is going to get old fast | 09:04 |
| ttx | yes, and having two parallel paths is also a bit painful | 09:05 |
| ttx | which is why I wrote the autokick script to autoclean things up | 09:05 |
| asalkeld | ok, that should help | 09:05 |
| asalkeld | do I run that or you? | 09:05 |
| ttx | My question would be, do you want that script running for Heat (like it did in the past ?) | 09:06 |
| asalkeld | yes, if it can run automatically | 09:06 |
| ttx | It usually simplifies a lot (you choose what appears on the list, rather than have to curate it all the time) | 09:06 |
| ttx | yes I run it on a crontab from some server in the cloudTM | 09:06 |
| asalkeld | yes, please that amazing:-) | 09:06 |
| ttx | ok, let me tell you what happens if I run it now | 09:07 |
| ttx | so that you can check it's not crazy | 09:07 |
| asalkeld | i'd expect some need setting to approved | 09:08 |
| ttx | http://paste.openstack.org/show/134302/ | 09:08 |
| ttx | If I run the script, it would remove the milestone targets for both of those | 09:08 |
| asalkeld | that sounds right | 09:08 |
| ttx | so you may want to set a priority for them if you want them to stay | 09:08 |
| asalkeld | ok, makes sense | 09:09 |
| ttx | asalkeld: the general goal here is to use the milestone pages to communicate the main things being worked on | 09:09 |
| ttx | like a report | 09:09 |
| asalkeld | ok, I'll try keep on that | 09:09 |
| ttx | obviously once storyboard is everywhere it will be all integrated :) | 09:10 |
| *** zz_johnthetubagu is now known as johnthetubaguy | 09:10 | |
| asalkeld | ttx that spec2bp.py - I need to run that? | 09:10 |
| ttx | ok, script is running now | 09:10 |
| ttx | asalkeld: so spec2bp just helps if you want to set the fields when a spec is approved | 09:10 |
| ttx | I can send you an email about it | 09:11 |
| asalkeld | thanks, that would help | 09:11 |
| ttx | #action ttx to send aslakeld info about spec2bp | 09:11 |
| ttx | I have another version up for review that I need to rebase | 09:11 |
| ttx | and then I'll advertise it again | 09:11 |
| asalkeld | it would be nice if that ran on approval | 09:11 |
| ttx | asalkeld: how representative would you say https://launchpad.net/heat/+milestone/kilo-1 is? | 09:12 |
| ttx | is is missing a lot of stuff that is being worked on ? | 09:12 |
| ttx | asalkeld: the main issue with spec2bp is that there is no way to CREATE the damn spec using launchpad api | 09:13 |
| ttx | so the spec has to be manually created | 09:13 |
| asalkeld | well there are people working on unapproved specs | 09:13 |
| ttx | err.. the bp | 09:13 |
| asalkeld | but that is ok | 09:13 |
| asalkeld | we should be approving some specs soon | 09:13 |
| asalkeld | and i'll clean up | 09:13 |
| asalkeld | (small'ish specs) | 09:14 |
| asalkeld | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/heat-specs,n,z | 09:14 |
| ttx | I think at some point we said we could track the "not approved yet" specs as "Blocked" | 09:14 |
| asalkeld | quite a heap | 09:14 |
| ttx | if they are part of the plan | 09:14 |
| asalkeld | not sure that is so nice | 09:15 |
| ttx | asalkeld: ok, I guess you should add the BP as the specs get approved. Don't forget to set a priority if you want them to survive the script. We'll review progress there next week | 09:15 |
| ttx | and I'll send you that email about the script | 09:16 |
| asalkeld | ok, thanks ttx | 09:16 |
| ttx | any topic for the cross-project meeting tomorrow morning ? | 09:16 |
| asalkeld | i don't think so | 09:16 |
| ttx | ok then, talk to you later! | 09:16 |
| asalkeld | later | 09:16 |
| ttx | mikal, johnthetubaguy: around? | 09:16 |
| mikal | I am! | 09:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | yes, but kinda busy with a deploy right now :( | 09:17 |
| ttx | #topic Nova | 09:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | kilo-1 is a mess that I hope to sort out last friday, but hopefully this afternoon now | 09:17 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, hey, any chance to sync earlier today? (/me travelling and will be available for ~ hour today) | 09:17 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: sure, just after Nova ? | 09:17 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, awesome, thx! | 09:18 |
| ttx | mikal: as far as release management liaisons are concerned, I think we can safely say that John is the liaison for Nova, but you inteznd to still follow the release syncs and all ? | 09:18 |
| mikal | ttx: well, that's a little bit up to johnthetubaguy | 09:19 |
| mikal | ttx: he's our release guy, and I'll attend these if he finds value in me doing so | 09:19 |
| mikal | I guess I need to anyways as prep for tomorrow's release meeting? | 09:19 |
| ttx | mikal: trying to abuse him while he is busy with the deploy | 09:19 |
| mikal | I'm not sure johnthetubaguy attended release meetings in juno? Just the syncs? | 09:20 |
| ttx | mikal: the cross-project meeting might turn into a busy meeting for all PTLs and cross-project liaisons | 09:20 |
| mikal | Ahhh, ok. | 09:20 |
| mikal | That would make sense | 09:20 |
| mikal | So yeah, perhaps this is the john / ttx syncup then | 09:20 |
| mikal | I'd be fine with that | 09:20 |
| ttx | we can discuss that next time | 09:21 |
| mikal | Sure | 09:21 |
| ttx | #action johnthetubaguy/mikal to clarify formal release management liaison delegation | 09:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK, its more a super bad time for me, that cross project meeting, but yeah | 09:21 |
| mikal | johnthetubaguy: I can cover for you in that one if I know what you need done there | 09:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am happy to be release liaison, if that makes sense | 09:21 |
| mikal | johnthetubaguy: yeah, you're totally on the hook for that | 09:22 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: you don't *have to* attend the other one, the PTL can represent | 09:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | mikal: cool, we need to sync anyways | 09:22 |
| mikal | johnthetubaguy: agreed | 09:22 |
| ttx | I'm just trying to empower the CPLs (cross project liaisons) to encourage people to step up | 09:22 |
| ttx | mikal, johnthetubaguy: that's what would get kicked off milestones if I enabled the adjust script right now: http://paste.openstack.org/show/134304/ | 09:23 |
| ttx | (remedmber: script kills all unprioritized stuff) | 09:23 |
| ttx | you may want to do a tour and ping me when I can enable the script | 09:24 |
| ttx | doesn't have to be just now | 09:24 |
| mikal | Huh, there's some weird stuff targetted and in that list | 09:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: thats cool with me, I think, I haven't looked at that list since the summit, so it gonna be a bit odd right now | 09:24 |
| ttx | mikal: yeah, same issue as always, anyone can set the milestone is LP | 09:24 |
| mikal | Remind me what criteria the script uses to kick things? | 09:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | there are approved specs I need to deal with, etc | 09:24 |
| ttx | which is why we use the prio/milestone combo | 09:24 |
| mikal | Yeah, I agree we should wait for John | 09:25 |
| ttx | mikal: the script removes unprioritized stuff | 09:25 |
| mikal | But that script looks like a good thing to enable after that | 09:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am good turning that on, it worked well last release | 09:25 |
| ttx | #action johnthetubaguy to do a final tour of milestones before pinging ttx to enable autokick | 09:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | sure, will do, this afternoon hopefully | 09:26 |
| ttx | I'll rework spec2bp soon to help with setting fields | 09:26 |
| ttx | mikal, johnthetubaguy: is "<johnthetubaguy> I am happy to be release liaison, if that makes sense" a "yes" ? | 09:27 |
| * ttx can update the CPL page | 09:27 | |
| mikal | ttx: yes | 09:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am good with that being a yes | 09:27 |
| ttx | #info johnthetubaguy will be release liaison for Nova | 09:28 |
| mikal | johnthetubaguy is the CPL for Compute / Nova / Whatever we're called | 09:28 |
| ttx | the Nova thing | 09:28 |
| ttx | ok, any topic you want to raise for the cross-project meeting? | 09:28 |
| mikal | Not that I can think of, apart from that I'd like to see projects who intend to have mid-cycles announce dates ASAP | 09:29 |
| ttx | ok, we can talk a bit about those tonight | 09:30 |
| mikal | Ta | 09:31 |
| ttx | Anne and I would like to understand why people organize them, too, see if anything can be done to reduce the need for them | 09:31 |
| ttx | so that can be discussed tonight/tomorrow | 09:31 |
| ttx | mikal, johnthetubaguy: ok, talk to you later! | 09:31 |
| mikal | Yep, I am getting a lot of push back from a small number of companies about having one at all | 09:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: cool, thanks | 09:31 |
| mikal | I do think its nessesary for Nova at the moment, but we're working to make that less true in the future | 09:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | mikal: we could try a remote one, but yeah, its tricky, means someone is up late at somepoint | 09:32 |
| ttx | mikal: I think they fear that too many decisions would be made there, rather than just work getting done | 09:32 |
| ttx | hackathons/social gatherings are fine | 09:32 |
| ttx | "Core secret meeting", they kind of have to attend it | 09:33 |
| mikal | Hmmm | 09:33 |
| mikal | Its complicated | 09:33 |
| ttx | it is indeed | 09:33 |
| ttx | especially when you factor the delays for organizing travel in | 09:33 |
| mikal | Nova is under a lot of pressure to deliver a lot, and that's very hard to do without keeping people in sync | 09:33 |
| mikal | But some of the same people applying that pressure don't want to sync up | 09:33 |
| ttx | i.e. predicting 3 months in adfvance you'll need one | 09:34 |
| * ttx needs to run quickly for an errand | 09:34 | |
| mikal | Fair enough | 09:34 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: be right back | 09:34 |
| mikal | We can talk more later | 09:34 |
| ttx | yes, at that meeting :) | 09:34 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, ok | 09:34 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: ready now | 09:45 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, me too | 09:45 |
| ttx | #topic Sahara | 09:45 |
| ttx | IIRC you said you would handle release liaison directly | 09:45 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, yup | 09:46 |
| ttx | #info SergeyLukjanov will handle release liaison directly | 09:46 |
| ttx | Should I enable the script that clears out unprioritized targeted blueprints ? | 09:47 |
| ttx | at this point it appears it wouldn't kick anything out | 09:47 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, yup | 09:47 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, if we have something unprio than we need to pull it out | 09:47 |
| ttx | ok, the script will now do that automatically | 09:47 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, ack | 09:48 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: how complete is k1 ? | 09:48 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, I think it's on a good shape | 09:48 |
| ttx | does it represent most stuff you plan to work on ? Or just a very partial view at this point ? | 09:48 |
| SergeyLukjanov | #link https://launchpad.net/sahara/+milestone/kilo-1 | 09:48 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, due to the summit and vacations after it - it's partial IMO | 09:49 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, we probably have some other stuff that'll be included | 09:49 |
| ttx | ok, we'll refine it as we get closer | 09:49 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, I'm on vacation this week too, so, will se next week I think | 09:49 |
| ttx | ok | 09:50 |
| ttx | anything you want to discuss at meeting today? | 09:50 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, I think no, everythong is going ok | 09:50 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, horizon stuff is in a good progress too | 09:51 |
| ttx | alright then, ttyl | 09:51 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, thx! | 09:51 |
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| eglynn | ttx: knock, knock, ready when you are | 13:00 |
| ttx | yep ,just a sec | 13:02 |
| ttx | finishing an email, 1 min | 13:02 |
| eglynn | cool, no rush | 13:03 |
| ttx | eglynn: o/ | 13:04 |
| ttx | #topic Ceilometer | 13:04 |
| eglynn | #link https://launchpad.net/ceilometer/+milestone/kilo-1 | 13:04 |
| ttx | sorry about that | 13:04 |
| eglynn | np! | 13:04 |
| eglynn | so we're begining to flesh out kilo-1 | 13:04 |
| eglynn | but early days yet | 13:05 |
| eglynn | lots of specs reviews in flight | 13:05 |
| eglynn | and more to come I expect | 13:05 |
| ttx | If I turn on the autokick script, it will kick out kafka-publisher (from kilo-1) | 13:05 |
| ttx | because it has no priority set | 13:05 |
| ttx | Should you fix it before I turn it on ? | 13:05 |
| eglynn | yeah the spec hasn't landed yet | 13:05 |
| ttx | ah, hm | 13:05 |
| eglynn | I'll manually kick, not sure how got targetted | 13:06 |
| eglynn | I'll manually kick *it, not sure how *it got targetted | 13:06 |
| ttx | ok, cal I enable the script crontab for ceilometer now ? | 13:06 |
| ttx | can* | 13:06 |
| eglynn | yep | 13:06 |
| eglynn | please do | 13:06 |
| ttx | ok done | 13:06 |
| eglynn | so on the specs process for kilo | 13:06 |
| eglynn | I missed this session at summit https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-crossproject-specs | 13:07 |
| ttx | we mostly said that would be used only for truly cross-project specs (i.e. likely to affect everyone) | 13:07 |
| eglynn | but I take there was some unease at how spec across the board worked in juno? | 13:07 |
| eglynn | so the practice within individual projects will remain as-was? | 13:08 |
| ttx | It felt like people were happy with it and wanted to standardize | 13:08 |
| ttx | The TODO in that etherpad translate what we'd like to try pretty well | 13:09 |
| eglynn | I guess the key question in my mind is "not all blueprints need a spec?" | 13:09 |
| eglynn | from the etherpad it seems that wiggle room was closed off somewhat? | 13:10 |
| ttx | I would say, not all features need a spec, and not all features need a blueprint | 13:10 |
| ttx | no, projects can still very much set the bar where they want | 13:10 |
| ttx | as far as "integrated release" is concerned, it's the blueprint view (i.e. the subset of features that we track for release purpose) that matters | 13:10 |
| eglynn | cool, it's the set different of those two categories above that I was wondering about | 13:11 |
| eglynn | i.e. features that do need a BP (for tracking) but not necessarily a spec (as the way forward is self-evident) | 13:11 |
| eglynn | set *difference | 13:12 |
| ttx | my view on it is... use spec for stuff which requires design/choice, and/or use blueprint for stuff that makes sesne to track as part of the release cycle | 13:12 |
| eglynn | cool, got it :) | 13:12 |
| ttx | there may be smallish stuf that falls between the cracks | 13:12 |
| ttx | in which case the commit message should be self-explaning | 13:12 |
| ttx | I assume you will handle release management directly ? No release management liaison ? | 13:13 |
| eglynn | yep | 13:13 |
| eglynn | I'm also down as stable-maint liaison for now | 13:14 |
| eglynn | no one jumped at the call for volunteers | 13:14 |
| eglynn | a lot of the more active cores are already liaising on something | 13:14 |
| eglynn | (oslo, docs, qa etc.) | 13:15 |
| ttx | Note that if they are part of your roadmap, you can also track "features that are waiting for spec approval" in blueprints using "Blocked" status | 13:15 |
| eglynn | cool, I'll adopt that practice | 13:15 |
| ttx | i.e. if those are a priority in your release plans | 13:15 |
| * dhellmann makes a note of that, too | 13:15 | |
| ttx | Working on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/108041/ | 13:15 |
| eglynn | cool | 13:16 |
| ttx | that way blueprints are truly a reporting tool, disconnected from spec status | 13:16 |
| ttx | reporting/planning | 13:16 |
| eglynn | nice :) | 13:16 |
| ttx | would be nice if only Launchpad could create a blueprint from the API | 13:16 |
| ttx | ok, I think I've got the urgent points covered | 13:17 |
| eglynn | yep, thanks for your time :) | 13:17 |
| ttx | #info Eoghan will do release management duties directly | 13:17 |
| ttx | eglynn: anything to add to agenda for meeting tonight ? | 13:17 |
| eglynn | nope | 13:17 |
| ttx | ok then | 13:18 |
| ttx | adding you to https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons | 13:18 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ready? | 13:18 |
| dhellmann | ttx: here | 13:19 |
| ttx | #topic Oslo | 13:19 |
| ttx | I suspect you'll stay the release management liaison for Oslo, whatever that means ? | 13:19 |
| ttx | i.e. you'll be the one attending this sync ? | 13:19 |
| dhellmann | yes, I think that's going to be simplest | 13:19 |
| dhellmann | I'll put myself on the list | 13:19 |
| ttx | we don't exactly discuss the same things as other projects, but I think we still benefit from a sync | 13:20 |
| ttx | I'm on it | 13:20 |
| dhellmann | ok | 13:20 |
| ttx | Looking to the autokick script, not sure it makes sense in Oslo world | 13:20 |
| dhellmann | I've asked for volunteers for stable maint and documentation liaisons, too, but no one raised their hand | 13:20 |
| dhellmann | that's the thing that removes blueprints if they don't have a priority set? | 13:21 |
| ttx | that's the script which will remove unprioritized blueprints from kilo milestones | 13:21 |
| dhellmann | I'd be happy to have that running to help keep us honest | 13:21 |
| ttx | we'd have to list all the launchpad projects | 13:21 |
| dhellmann | oh, so it wouldn't run against the project group? | 13:21 |
| ttx | hmmm, worth a try | 13:22 |
| dhellmann | if not, it's not a big deal | 13:22 |
| ttx | https://api.launchpad.net/devel/oslo object has no attribute 'getSeries' | 13:22 |
| ttx | I would have to hack the script to dereference the projectgroup | 13:22 |
| dhellmann | I've explained to everyone about using the new release tool, so we shouldn't get too cluttered | 13:22 |
| ttx | I guess it's doable | 13:22 |
| dhellmann | if you find time, fine, otherwise don't worry about it | 13:22 |
| ttx | #action ttx to look into supporting projectgroups in autokick.py, so that we can apply it to Olso | 13:23 |
| ttx | in the mean time it won't run | 13:23 |
| dhellmann | ok | 13:23 |
| ttx | I wanted to read https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Oslo/ReleaseProcess and comment | 13:23 |
| ttx | maybe I can do that now | 13:23 |
| dhellmann | please do! | 13:23 |
| ttx | I'll ping you in 5 min once I read it ? | 13:24 |
| dhellmann | I'm going to the bakery for breakfast right after we're done, but I'll be back in 20 min | 13:24 |
| ttx | OK, let's close the 1:1 first | 13:24 |
| dhellmann | sure | 13:24 |
| ttx | anything to add for todays meeting agenda ? | 13:25 |
| dhellmann | I don't think so | 13:25 |
| dhellmann | is it worth mentioning the alpha version decision? | 13:25 |
| dhellmann | that's the only thing that really comes to mind for me | 13:25 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I think the only person who I can remember opposing a part of it (stable dep capping) would be markmc | 13:26 |
| dhellmann | ok | 13:26 |
| ttx | so not sure disucssing it in meeting would help/change | 13:26 |
| dhellmann | I have a note to myself to propose the cap change in the stable global requirements list, so I'll try to do that today | 13:26 |
| ttx | although pinging him could be seen as a courtesy | 13:26 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I'll do that, too | 13:26 |
| ttx | ok then, go to bakery, buy croissants, ping me when back. I'll read that page in the next 5 min | 13:27 |
| ttx | and we can quickly discuss it when you're back | 13:27 |
| dhellmann | ok, bbiab | 13:27 |
| * ttx braindumps random remarks | 13:33 | |
| ttx | - the main goal of the "fix leftover bugs" stop is to let people try to manually fix the bugs Launchpad is timeouting on, could be good to mention that | 13:34 |
| ttx | - the email example is using an alpha pre-release, would be good to switch to a "normal" release template | 13:35 |
| ttx | - Would be cool to add the link to the Launchpad milestone page, since we build one | 13:36 |
| ttx | Otherwise looks good. | 13:36 |
| dhellmann | ttx: back | 13:44 |
| dhellmann | points 1 and 2 ack, I'll do that today | 13:44 |
| dhellmann | not sure what you mean for point 3? | 13:44 |
| ttx | the announcement email doesn't include a link to the Launchpad milestone page that oslo_release.sh helps build | 13:46 |
| dhellmann | ah, ok, that makes sense | 13:46 |
| dhellmann | I need to automate generating that email body more anyway | 13:46 |
| ttx | ack | 13:48 |
| *** david-lyle_afk is now known as david-lyle | 14:43 | |
| mestery | ttx: Here when you're ready! | 15:03 |
| ttx | mestery: hi | 15:04 |
| ttx | #topic Neutron | 15:04 |
| ttx | mestery: you fine with being the release management liaison for kilo, or would prefer to delegate that ? | 15:04 |
| mestery | ttx: Ack, I'm good with that. | 15:05 |
| ttx | Been looking into enabling autockick for Neutron/kilo | 15:05 |
| ttx | http://paste.openstack.org/show/134396/ shows what would happen | 15:05 |
| mestery | Please do! I thought that was very useful during Juno. | 15:05 |
| * mestery looks | 15:05 | |
| ttx | you might want to fix those by hand before I enable the crontab | 15:05 |
| mestery | Looks good to me | 15:05 |
| ttx | ok, enabling | 15:06 |
| mestery | Thanks! | 15:06 |
| mestery | I had been manually kicking a bit the past few weeks already ;) | 15:06 |
| ttx | updating wikipages | 15:06 |
| ttx | ok done | 15:07 |
| mestery | Thank you! | 15:07 |
| ttx | #info Kyle will handle release management directly | 15:07 |
| ttx | https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/kilo-1 | 15:07 |
| ttx | feels like this is incomplete at this point | 15:07 |
| mestery | This will be changing over the next week as we start approving specs | 15:07 |
| mestery | We're in the process now, people are spending lots of time reviewing specs | 15:08 |
| ttx | Note that if you want to track specs-still-needing-approval as part of your milestone roadmap, you can use "Blocked" | 15:08 |
| mestery | Ah, right, I'll do that! | 15:08 |
| ttx | useful for tracking essential stuff | 15:08 |
| ttx | that you know you need to do anyway | 15:08 |
| mestery | Perfect | 15:08 |
| ttx | We'll discuss meetups in general at the cross-project meeting today | 15:08 |
| ttx | anything else you'd like to add ? | 15:09 |
| mestery | That's about it! markmcclain and I are in the process of proposing the advanced services spin-out from neutron now | 15:09 |
| ttx | ack | 15:09 |
| mestery | We'll be emailing hte list and gettingthat on a TC agenda soon | 15:09 |
| mestery | We have our mid-cycle Dec 8-10 as well, may be worth noting that in the logs here. | 15:10 |
| ttx | #info Neutron mid-cycle Dec 8-10 | 15:10 |
| mestery | Otherwise, that's it for now! Hopefully next week I'll have more interesting BPs in kilo-1 ;) | 15:10 |
| ttx | ok then, have a good day! | 15:10 |
| mestery | you too, thanks ttx! | 15:10 |
| ttx | nikhil_k: ready when you are | 15:16 |
| nikhil_k|afk | ttx: ready | 15:16 |
| ttx | #topic Glance | 15:16 |
| *** nikhil_k|afk is now known as nikhil_k | 15:16 | |
| nikhil_k | have one item from my side | 15:16 |
| ttx | nikhil_k: sure, shoot | 15:16 |
| nikhil_k | ttx: the author of this commit https://review.openstack.org/#/c/133858/ | 15:17 |
| nikhil_k | requested it to be in juno | 15:17 |
| nikhil_k | ttx: wanted to see if we can get that one in and what was "general" process of allowing such changes in stable/* | 15:17 |
| nikhil_k | do we delegate to the stable maintainers? (now per project) | 15:18 |
| ttx | nikhil_k: feels like it should be acceptable per stable rules | 15:18 |
| ttx | if stuck, you can raise a thread on -dev with [stable] prefix | 15:19 |
| ttx | you can also reach out on #openstack-stable | 15:19 |
| nikhil_k | sure, I'll remove the -2 and make it +2 then | 15:19 |
| nikhil_k | ah nice, sure | 15:19 |
| ttx | nikhil_k: I assume you'll be handling release management liaison duties for Glance ? | 15:19 |
| nikhil_k | ttx: yes | 15:20 |
| ttx | #info Nikhil will do relmgt liaison for Glance | 15:20 |
| ttx | The other thing I wanted to discuss are autocleaning of milestone plans | 15:20 |
| ttx | We are using blueprints and target milestone to communicate which features are likely to land in which milestone | 15:21 |
| ttx | it's like a roadmap that is communicated outside the project | 15:21 |
| ttx | so we maintain pages like https://launchpad.net/glance/+milestone/kilo-1 | 15:21 |
| ttx | BUT launchpad unfortunately doesn't restrict who can set "starget milestone" on a blueprint | 15:22 |
| nikhil_k | sure, I'm aware (for the most part at least) :) | 15:22 |
| ttx | so we use a combination of priority being set AND milestone | 15:22 |
| nikhil_k | ah ok | 15:22 |
| ttx | and I have a script that will remove any unprioritized stuff from milestone | 15:22 |
| ttx | so that nobody can sneak stuff in without the project drivers approval | 15:23 |
| ttx | That script is not enabled yet for glance in kilo | 15:23 |
| ttx | but I can enable it | 15:23 |
| nikhil_k | sure, the thing is in Glance we use specs | 15:23 |
| ttx | (it wouldn't have any effect right now) | 15:23 |
| nikhil_k | so just wanted to get some of you thoughts on it | 15:23 |
| ttx | So, you can use spec to vet for design | 15:23 |
| ttx | and blueprints to communicate a roadmap out | 15:23 |
| ttx | I have another script called spefc2bp that can be used to sync status between spec and bp | 15:24 |
| nikhil_k | this would be an issue after a spec is approved right? | 15:24 |
| ttx | but unfortunately that script can't create a blueprint, so you still have to create it byu hand | 15:24 |
| nikhil_k | that script sounds nice | 15:24 |
| ttx | you can track a feature in blueprints even befgore the spec is approved | 15:24 |
| nikhil_k | sure, that's ok. BP are only for bookkeeping anyways with most design details in the spec | 15:25 |
| ttx | if you know a specific spec is really on the roadmap | 15:25 |
| nikhil_k | ohk, that issues sounds bad | 15:25 |
| ttx | Imagine you have a key feature you want delivered in Kilo release, you can add a blueprint to track it even before the spec is approved | 15:26 |
| ttx | just set status to "Blocked" | 15:26 |
| ttx | I'll rebase my spec2bp script and land it, then send an email about it | 15:26 |
| nikhil_k | gotcha | 15:26 |
| ttx | more about that next week | 15:26 |
| nikhil_k | sure | 15:26 |
| ttx | #action ttx to also clearly explain difference between spec (design) and blueprint (tracking) | 15:27 |
| nikhil_k | also, if you could help me understabd where do we set the priority | 15:27 |
| nikhil_k | ? | 15:27 |
| nikhil_k | in th BP? | 15:27 |
| ttx | yes, you set priority in the blueprint | 15:27 |
| ttx | for example https://blueprints.launchpad.net/glance/+spec/refactoring-glance-logging is set to "Low" | 15:28 |
| ttx | nikhil_k: next week we'll aslo start looking at kilo-1 goals, so you might want to populate that with accepted specs you want on your roadmap (currently a bit empty) | 15:28 |
| ttx | That's all for this week anyway, anything you want to add to the meeting agenda for today ? | 15:28 |
| nikhil_k | ttx: yeah, I thought that before spec is approved we prolly don't want to do that.. though this makes sense | 15:28 |
| ttx | you don't want to list random specs before they are approved obviously | 15:29 |
| nikhil_k | ttx: just wanted to say that we've a volunteer from glance for the role of stable-maint* liaison | 15:29 |
| ttx | only key priorities that you already know will have to make it | 15:29 |
| nikhil_k | ttx: yeah, def | 15:29 |
| ttx | cool! Just edit https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons#Stable_Branch directly | 15:29 |
| nikhil_k | (situation is still a bit wonky atm) | 15:29 |
| nikhil_k | ah ok, sure | 15:30 |
| ttx | any last minute question ? | 15:30 |
| nikhil_k | ttx: no, thank you! | 15:30 |
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| ttx | #topic Cinder | 15:31 |
| ttx | thingee: o/ | 15:31 |
| thingee | o/ | 15:31 |
| ttx | sorry for the wrong channel name | 15:31 |
| thingee | that's ok | 15:31 |
| ttx | thingee: I take it you intend to fill release management liaison duties directly ? | 15:31 |
| thingee | ttx: yes | 15:31 |
| thingee | ttx: so 28 bps. this is because of the rush deadline of drivers. | 15:32 |
| ttx | #info Mike will cover Cinder release management directly | 15:32 |
| ttx | https://launchpad.net/cinder/+milestone/kilo-1 | 15:32 |
| ttx | thingee: that's fine :) | 15:33 |
| ttx | better rush at k1 | 15:33 |
| thingee | ttx: luckily majority of bps are in code review. | 15:33 |
| ttx | thingee: as you may know, we are using a combination of priority and target milestone to build those pages | 15:33 |
| ttx | (we require prio to be set, because otherwise anyone can add to milestone) | 15:33 |
| ttx | I have a script that will autokick things out if they miss prio | 15:34 |
| ttx | that avoids having to keep an eye on the list for intruders all the time | 15:34 |
| ttx | If I enabled the script right now, it would kick out: | 15:34 |
| ttx | KICK kilo-rbd-driver-feature-enhancement (from kilo-1) | 15:34 |
| ttx | KICK filtering-weighing-with-driver-supplied-functions (from kilo-1) | 15:34 |
| ttx | if you want to keep them in you might want to set a priority for them | 15:35 |
| thingee | ok those are fine. I will fix priorities now | 15:35 |
| ttx | ok, let me know when I can set the script to run on crontab for cinder | 15:35 |
| thingee | done | 15:35 |
| ttx | ok script enabled | 15:35 |
| thingee | thank you | 15:35 |
| ttx | I guess you don't expect much more to be added to k1? That's already a lot by Cinder standards :) | 15:36 |
| thingee | definitely. I have spoken to core on drivers get priority this milestone. that's the benefit to vendors working hard to getting in this milestone. | 15:36 |
| ttx | alright then. Anything you'd like to se discussed at the cross-project meeting today at 21:00 ? | 15:37 |
| ttx | see* | 15:37 |
| thingee | I'm mostly interested in the oslo object version work, but I don't know if it makes sense to get a progress report on where that's going. | 15:38 |
| ttx | I guess you can ask during open discussion then, if you're around | 15:38 |
| thingee | since it was at the summit we discussed things. not a lot of time to make progress. | 15:38 |
| thingee | will do | 15:38 |
| ttx | Questions before we close ? | 15:38 |
| thingee | I'm good. | 15:39 |
| ttx | thingee: alright then, have a good day! | 15:39 |
| ttx | david-lyle: around? | 15:39 |
| thingee | and you have a good evening | 15:39 |
| david-lyle | ttx: here | 15:41 |
| ttx | #topic Horizon | 15:41 |
| ttx | david-lyle: do you plan to handle release liaison directly, or delegate that ? | 15:42 |
| david-lyle | I'll handle it | 15:42 |
| ttx | #info David will fill release liaison duties for Horizon | 15:42 |
| ttx | david-lyle: last cycle IIRC we did not enable autokick for Horizon (the automatic kick out for unprioritized blueprints in a milestone) | 15:43 |
| ttx | would you like to enable it for this cycle ? | 15:43 |
| ttx | Do you use specs now ? | 15:43 |
| david-lyle | we don't use specs, but have changed the blueprint process a little | 15:43 |
| david-lyle | autokick would just remove unprioritized bp from milestones/ | 15:44 |
| david-lyle | ? | 15:44 |
| ttx | yes, to makes ure you can curate the list without people randomly adding stuff | 15:44 |
| david-lyle | ooh, that sounds nice :) | 15:44 |
| ttx | but then you can't use the milestone page as part of a blueprint approval workflow | 15:45 |
| david-lyle | true | 15:45 |
| ttx | i.e. only things you vet will appear there | 15:45 |
| david-lyle | let's leave it off for now | 15:45 |
| ttx | so you need another way to get a list of "candidates" | 15:45 |
| david-lyle | we may move to the specs process next release | 15:45 |
| ttx | if you use specs, approval/design happens there, so BPs are only used for rodamp, tracking, communication | 15:46 |
| ttx | roadmap* | 15:46 |
| david-lyle | I get enough surprise bps at the end of a release as it is | 15:46 |
| ttx | but if you don't use specs yet, approval still kind of happens in launchpad | 15:46 |
| ttx | so you need some way for people to propose their stuff for a milestone | 15:47 |
| ttx | and kicking stuff out aggressively might destroy that :) | 15:47 |
| david-lyle | yeah, let's leave it for now | 15:47 |
| ttx | #info Horizon to stay out of autokick at this point (doesn't use specs yet) | 15:48 |
| ttx | david-lyle: so that means you'll have to watch the unprioritized stuff on https://launchpad.net/horizon/+milestone/kilo-1 | 15:48 |
| ttx | and either untarget it, or set some priority if you approve of it | 15:48 |
| ttx | your k1 looks pretty good though already | 15:49 |
| david-lyle | yeah, been working through it | 15:49 |
| ttx | ok, anything you want to discuss at meeting today? | 15:50 |
| david-lyle | no, I don't think so | 15:50 |
| ttx | Any last-minute question before we close ? | 15:50 |
| david-lyle | no, I'm good | 15:50 |
| ttx | david-lyle: alright then, have a good day! | 15:51 |
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| ttx | notmyname: o/ | 16:50 |
| notmyname | ttx: hi! | 16:50 |
| ttx | #topic Swift | 16:50 |
| ttx | Welcome back | 16:50 |
| notmyname | thanks | 16:50 |
| notmyname | I'm still getting my head around what's going on, in general. | 16:51 |
| ttx | Probably a bit early for plans, but do you have an idea of the next release timeframe ? | 16:51 |
| notmyname | I'm working on refreshing our priority reviews | 16:51 |
| notmyname | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Swift/PriorityReviews | 16:51 |
| notmyname | no clue | 16:51 |
| notmyname | and seagate has contributed a full chinese translation | 16:51 |
| notmyname | #link https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/swift/ | 16:51 |
| notmyname | just waiting on the cron to run and propose it | 16:52 |
| ttx | ok | 16:52 |
| notmyname | most of my focus is looking at the EC work | 16:52 |
| ttx | I take it you'll be doing release management liaison for Swift this cycle ? | 16:52 |
| notmyname | I suspect we'll have a release around the end of the year (ish). but that's just a guess for now | 16:52 |
| notmyname | ya | 16:52 |
| ttx | #info John will do release management liaison for Swift in kilo | 16:53 |
| ttx | ok, not much to discuss then | 16:54 |
| notmyname | what other logistical stuff needs to happen? | 16:54 |
| ttx | any topic to add to meeting agenda for today? | 16:54 |
| ttx | notmyname: what do you mean by other logistical stuff? | 16:55 |
| notmyname | boilerplate things at the start of an integrated release cycle | 16:55 |
| ttx | nothing that I can think of | 16:56 |
| notmyname | no, I don't think I have anything for the meeting. I'm interested in the TC discussions around core/integrated/tent/cats | 16:56 |
| ttx | If you add blueprints to next-kilo they should appear on http://status.openstack.org/release/ | 16:56 |
| ttx | but nothing special required | 16:56 |
| notmyname | ok | 16:56 |
| ttx | ok then, I'll talk to you later then | 16:57 |
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| notmyname | bye | 16:57 |
| ttx | morganfainberg: ready when you are | 16:57 |
| ttx | notmyname: thx! | 16:57 |
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| morganfainberg | Ttx o/ | 16:58 |
| ttx | #topic Keystone | 16:58 |
| ttx | morganfainberg: I assume you'll be filling release management liaison duties for the kilo cycle ? | 16:58 |
| morganfainberg | Yes. | 16:58 |
| * ttx adds morganfainberg to https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons#Release_management | 16:59 | |
| ttx | next question about enabling autokick for your blueprints, let me explain a bit | 16:59 |
| ttx | anyone can set milestone target in launchpad, which messes up our usage of launchpad blueprint page as a roadmap communication tool | 17:00 |
| ttx | since random people wil add stuff | 17:00 |
| morganfainberg | Yep. | 17:00 |
| ttx | so instead we use priority + target milestone | 17:00 |
| ttx | since priority can only be set by project drivers | 17:01 |
| morganfainberg | Makes sense. | 17:01 |
| ttx | I have a script that will automatically remove unprioritized stuff from milestone | 17:01 |
| ttx | so that you don'ty have to watch the list for intruders all the time | 17:01 |
| morganfainberg | I'm a fan of that. | 17:01 |
| ttx | I'll take that as a "yes, enable it now" | 17:01 |
| morganfainberg | Please do enable it :) | 17:01 |
| ttx | done. | 17:02 |
| ttx | quick check @ https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/kilo-1 | 17:02 |
| ttx | I suppose it's at the very early stages | 17:02 |
| morganfainberg | Yeah. I was planning on starting the classification this week | 17:03 |
| ttx | remember you can track specs that have not been approved yet (if they are key milestone objectives) by setting status to Blocked | 17:03 |
| morganfainberg | And targeting. | 17:03 |
| morganfainberg | Great. Will do so. | 17:03 |
| ttx | that makes it much more useful as a tracking tool, rather than a painful duplication of effort | 17:03 |
| morganfainberg | Yep. | 17:03 |
| ttx | Ok, that's all I had for this week | 17:03 |
| ttx | Anything you'd like to discuss at meeting today? | 17:04 |
| morganfainberg | Nope. Most everything is just moving along. | 17:04 |
| ttx | Any last-minute question ? | 17:04 |
| morganfainberg | Nope. Thanks. | 17:04 |
| ttx | devananda: does your plane have wifi ? | 17:05 |
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| devananda | ttx: oh hai! | 17:10 |
| ttx | devananda: oh! | 17:10 |
| ttx | #topic Ironic | 17:11 |
| devananda | smoehow this was on my calendar for yesterday | 17:11 |
| ttx | devananda: do you plan to do release management liaison work, or do you plan to delegate that to a trusted monkey? | 17:11 |
| devananda | so I don't have anything prepared ... | 17:11 |
| ttx | that's fine | 17:11 |
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| devananda | for now, I will continue to do that, but lucas has expressed some interest | 17:12 |
| devananda | and I'm happy if he wants to start doing it as the cycle progresses | 17:12 |
| ttx | nothing really requiring prep at this point | 17:12 |
| ttx | just a few questions and info bits | 17:12 |
| ttx | ok, makes sense | 17:12 |
| ttx | #info Deva will do release management liaison for the time being | 17:12 |
| ttx | devananda: as explained above... | 17:13 |
| ttx | next question about enabling autokick for your blueprints, let me explain a bit | 17:13 |
| ttx | anyone can set milestone target in launchpad, which messes up our usage of launchpad blueprint page as a roadmap communication tool | 17:13 |
| ttx | since random people will add stuff | 17:13 |
| ttx | so instead we use priority + target milestone | 17:14 |
| ttx | since priority can only be set by project drivers | 17:14 |
| ttx | I have a script that will automatically remove unprioritized stuff from milestone | 17:14 |
| ttx | so that you don'ty have to watch the list for intruders all the time | 17:14 |
| devananda | ++ | 17:14 |
| ttx | would you like that to be enabled for ironic ? | 17:14 |
| devananda | sure | 17:14 |
| * ttx enables | 17:14 | |
| ttx | the only downside is people complaning to me why I untarget their stuff | 17:15 |
| ttx | at 3am in the morning | 17:15 |
| devananda | heh | 17:15 |
| devananda | is it part of release-tools? | 17:15 |
| devananda | I can also run it | 17:15 |
| devananda | so they complain to me :) | 17:15 |
| ttx | I run it on a crontab | 17:16 |
| ttx | so that it never sticks | 17:16 |
| ttx | #action ttx to post autokick.py in some repo | 17:16 |
| devananda | also, we are changing the format of our weekly meetings, and adding an alternate time slot | 17:17 |
| ttx | devananda: given how much time you spent home so far, I suspect https://launchpad.net/ironic/+milestone/kilo-1 is still WIP ? | 17:17 |
| ttx | (as far as completeness goes) | 17:17 |
| devananda | yea | 17:17 |
| devananda | if by WIP you mean untouched by me since the summit :) | 17:17 |
| * devananda adds that to his backlog of tasks | 17:18 | |
| ttx | note that you have the option to track yet-unapprover-specs-but-still-in-our-priority-roadmap stuff by having "Blocked" blueprints in your milestone | 17:18 |
| ttx | unapproved* | 17:18 |
| ttx | that makes the milestone page slightly beter at predicting what will likely happen in a milestone | 17:19 |
| ttx | anything you'd like to discuss at meeting today ? Any last-minute question ? | 17:19 |
| devananda | just noting that we'll be changing our meeting time in two weeks | 17:20 |
| devananda | I'll announce once everyone has finished voting on the new slots | 17:20 |
| ttx | ok cool | 17:20 |
| ttx | #info Ironic will be changing our meeting time in two weeks | 17:21 |
| ttx | SlickNik: around? | 17:21 |
| ttx | devananda: thanks for your time! | 17:21 |
| SlickNik | ttx: o/ | 17:21 |
| ttx | #topic Trove | 17:21 |
| devananda | ttx: cheers, thank you! | 17:21 |
| ttx | SlickNik: same questions for you. Do you plan to fill release management liaison duties during kilo ? Or delegate ? | 17:21 |
| SlickNik | ttx: I'll be on the hook for release management duties. | 17:22 |
| ttx | #info Nikhil will do relmgt liaison | 17:22 |
| SlickNik | ttx: I'll update the wiki page. | 17:22 |
| ttx | SlickNik: already done | 17:22 |
| SlickNik | ttx: thanks! | 17:23 |
| ttx | You are switching to specs this cycle | 17:23 |
| SlickNik | Yes, we already did. | 17:23 |
| ttx | As explained above... | 17:23 |
| ttx | you can read what I said to devananda 10 minutes ago | 17:23 |
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| SlickNik | doing that right now. | 17:23 |
| ttx | and let me know if you'd like said script to be activated for Trove as well | 17:23 |
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| * ttx dry-runs the script to test effect | 17:24 | |
| ttx | $ ./autokick.py --dryrun trove kilo | 17:24 |
| ttx | KICK cassandra-cluster (from kilo-2) | 17:24 |
| ttx | KICK clustering-replicasets (from kilo-1) | 17:24 |
| ttx | KICK guest-rpc-ping-pong (from kilo-1) | 17:24 |
| ttx | that's what would happen if I ran it now ^ | 17:24 |
| ttx | you might want to fix those if you want to keep them in | 17:25 |
| SlickNik | Yes, I don't have the priority set for those right now, which I will follow up on. | 17:25 |
| ttx | (fix = give them a priority) | 17:25 |
| SlickNik | Got it. | 17:25 |
| ttx | SlickNik: point is, once the script runs on crontab, those would have been removed automatically | 17:25 |
| ttx | so only what you add (with a priority) will stick in the list | 17:26 |
| ttx | taht's usually the workflow you want once you switched to spec for design/approval part | 17:26 |
| ttx | you want to curate a list for comunication/tracking purposes without everyone using it as their playground | 17:26 |
| SlickNik | Got it, I'll make sure we're setting the priority for the BPs. | 17:26 |
| SlickNik | going forward. | 17:27 |
| ttx | OK, let me know when you fixed them, and I'll enable the script | 17:27 |
| ttx | #info Waiting on SlickNik's ping to enable autokick for Trove | 17:27 |
| SlickNik | I had another question wrt specs. | 17:27 |
| ttx | sure, shoot | 17:27 |
| SlickNik | Should the actual spec review in gerrit get +2 and merged when the spec is approved, or when the feature actually lands. | 17:28 |
| ttx | general process is when the design is approved | 17:28 |
| SlickNik | I think it's the former, but some folks seemed to think it's the latter, so I wanted to double check. | 17:28 |
| ttx | feature completion is tracked in Launchpad blueprints basically (if you care) | 17:29 |
| ttx | so yes, the former | 17:29 |
| SlickNik | Roger that. Thanks for the clarification. | 17:29 |
| ttx | specs are a way to iterate on design and track approvals. We still use Launchpad for tracking the implementation and when that lands in our cycle | 17:30 |
| ttx | ok, unless you have another question, we can close for this week | 17:30 |
| SlickNik | That's it from my end. I'll update the LP BPs and ping you to enable the kick-script. | 17:31 |
| SlickNik | Thanks ttx! | 17:31 |
| ttx | SlickNik: awesome thx | 17:31 |
| ttx | #action slicknik to prio BPs and ping ttx when done | 17:31 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 17:31 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 18 17:31:33 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:31 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2014/ptl_sync.2014-11-18-08.58.html | 17:31 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2014/ptl_sync.2014-11-18-08.58.txt | 17:31 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2014/ptl_sync.2014-11-18-08.58.log.html | 17:31 |
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