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| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack/futurist master: Fix alignment of last finished strategy https://review.openstack.org/546490 | 05:11 |
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| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack/futurist master: Fix alignment of last finished strategy https://review.openstack.org/546490 | 05:19 |
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| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack/futurist master: Add last finished strategy + fast forward https://review.openstack.org/546490 | 05:28 |
| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack/futurist master: Add last finished strategy + fast forward https://review.openstack.org/546490 | 05:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack/futurist master: Add last finished strategy + fast forward https://review.openstack.org/546490 | 13:47 |
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| tobasco | is there any support matrix for oslo.messaging supported versions for each os release? in my case rabbitmq | 15:46 |
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| kgiusti | tobasco: hi - I'm not aware of any such document. As far as a release is concerned most testing is against whichever version of rabbitmq is provided by the platform (e.g. Ubuntu Xenial, Centos 7) at the time of release. | 16:02 |
| tobasco | kgiusti: ok thx | 16:03 |
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| dansmith | sileht: are you still around? and are you still the go-to person for oslo.messaging? | 19:02 |
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| openstackgerrit | prashkre proposed openstack/oslo.concurrency master: Mask passwords only when command execution fails https://review.openstack.org/537823 | 19:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | prashkre proposed openstack/oslo.concurrency master: Mask passwords only when command execution fails https://review.openstack.org/537823 | 19:42 |
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| kgiusti | dansmith: hey - anything I can help you with? | 19:45 |
| dansmith | kgiusti: I just wanted to discuss a thing I was thinking about proposing to o.msg | 19:46 |
| dansmith | just in case it's a "hell no" kind of situation :) | 19:46 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: kewl - are you going to PTG? | 19:46 |
| dansmith | yeah | 19:46 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: I'm all ears - they'll be more people at PTG if you want to discuss it more on Tuesday | 19:47 |
| dansmith | kgiusti: well, I'd like a little pre-sanity-checking and then I can get my code into a little closer to reviewable shape | 19:47 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: you've got code? Man you are serious :) | 19:47 |
| dansmith | oh yeah, working PoC and everything :) | 19:48 |
| dansmith | so, we have some long-running operations that can vary from quick to very long, that we access via rpc call | 19:48 |
| dansmith | we don't really want to increase the global rpc timeout to the longest one of those could be, but thats what users end up doing, sometimes to extreme values like an hour or more | 19:49 |
| dansmith | so I've had this idea in my head for a while and just banged out a PoC, | 19:49 |
| dansmith | which is to heartbeat from the server to the client that the thing is still running, so the client could have a soft and hard timeout kind of behavior | 19:50 |
| dansmith | like "if it's still running, I'll wait up to ten minutes, but if you stop responding (or never did), then I'm timing out in 30 seconds | 19:50 |
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| kgiusti | dansmith: interesting... | 19:51 |
| dansmith | the alternative is for us to convert things that are fundamentally calls to casts, and set up a rendezvous type thing at the higher layer to be able to continue processing a thing when the remote side casts back to us, | 19:51 |
| dansmith | but that's just us duplicating what is already there at the lower layer in o.msg | 19:52 |
| dansmith | so I figure if the server can indicate to the client that the thing is still running, the client can continue to wait up to the hard timeout (which may indicate something is hung) and that's a much cleaner way to go | 19:52 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: so there'd be some application to application heart beat that runs "in the background" ? | 19:52 |
| dansmith | it's all in o.msg, but yeah, separate from the connection heartbeating that we do with rabbit to know that rabbit is still alive | 19:53 |
| dansmith | I was thinking that if we pass what our timeout is to the server side, the server can heartbeat every timeout/2 seconds, so we're really not generating a ton of traffic like we would if we just did it every ten seconds or something | 19:53 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: are you trying to distinguish between an RPC call that is just taking extra time to execute, or a backed up queue, or a missing server? | 19:55 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: the broker in the middle adds a bit of uncertainty since the client and server are decoupled. | 19:55 |
| dansmith | that's the thing, right now we can't tell the difference between "the service isn't running" and "this is running, but taking a long time" | 19:56 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: right. So one thing to consider is the queues. your rpc request may be sitting on the queue for a while if no or slow server. | 19:56 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: won't the heartbeat messages also be queued up? | 19:57 |
| dansmith | yep, for sure, so we just reset the soft timer when we get a heartbeat, | 19:57 |
| dansmith | so if we get a flood of them, we don't suddenly increase the timer N times | 19:58 |
| dansmith | this won't really address the case where you're lacking mq bandwidth, or where the remote server is too busy to process all the requests | 19:58 |
| dansmith | that will hit the hard timeout just like it does today | 19:58 |
| dansmith | this will address the fact that the server may take ten minutes to create a 4TB volume, and we time out not knowing if it was working on it or just isn't running | 19:59 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: yeah, I'm worried that if the mq is heavily loaded and things have slowed down, then adding additional messages (heartbeat) could make things worse... | 19:59 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: what if we had an async rpc call? | 19:59 |
| dansmith | also, my code doesn't heartbeat until the dispatcher actually starts running the method, so no heartbeats while the original request is in a queue | 20:00 |
| dansmith | kgiusti: say more words | 20:00 |
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| kgiusti | dansmith: mmmm.... I had an idea but it may not help. It seems you need to know that not only is the request being processed, but what happens if the server processing the message craps out. | 20:02 |
| dansmith | yeah, we don't care so much about the latter, | 20:02 |
| dansmith | although we have to eventually time out if that happens of course | 20:02 |
| dansmith | I don't want to heartbeat like every second or anything | 20:02 |
| dansmith | I would expect the soft timeout would still be like it is today, about 60s, but the hard timeout could be higher like ten minutes | 20:03 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: oh. hmmm... well, what I meant by an async rpc call is that your client would fire off the rpc call without waiting for the response. The call itself would block only until the server gets the message and starts processing it. The client would get some sort of future like thingy back that would become ready when the server sends the reply. | 20:04 |
| dansmith | I don't think we'd add that much extra load to the mq, because we'd only heartbeat from calls that actually started in the server.. anything sitting in a queue because we're backed up won't do anything.. if we polled from the client, then we would generate extra load, which would be bad | 20:04 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: IOW the timeout would only apply to the transfer of the request to the server. | 20:05 |
| dansmith | kgiusti: I don't think that helps at all, because we're not trying to parallelize extra work on the client side, we usually can't do anything until we get the reply back anyway, we just don't want to wait ten minutes if the server is down, but are willing to if that thing is running and just doing lots of work | 20:05 |
| dansmith | we could also make this heartbeating thing only happen if the client requests, it, and we would only use it for things we know can take a long time like creating a volume, or scheduling a lot of instances | 20:07 |
| dansmith | I'd rather it just kinda work automatically, but... | 20:07 |
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| dansmith | if we only heartbeat at timeout/2 then that would mean today only things that took more than 30 seconds to finish would get a single heartbeat message in the interim, | 20:07 |
| dansmith | which I guess just doesn't seem like a big deal | 20:08 |
| dansmith | making calls that are running and consuming resources, but that we just give up on when we shouldn't is a much larger waste | 20:08 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: yeah it's not so much the async aspect as the early indication that the request hit the server... | 20:08 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: which doesn't preclude the server from heartbeating. | 20:09 |
| dansmith | okay, so in my model that's like one heartbeat immediately which scales the timer on the client way higher, assuming that if it hit the server it'll come back, so we wait longer than we would have normally? | 20:09 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: roughly yes - though it doesn't necessarily eliminate heatbeats in the background. | 20:10 |
| dansmith | yeah, I mean that addresses part of what I want I guess.. it's certainly better than what we have today | 20:11 |
| dansmith | if you think about an api call which calls to the scheduler to do a very large thing, the scheduler replies once, and then OOMs because you asked for a super big thing, you sit around for a long time before realizing that systemd restarted it a while ago :) | 20:12 |
| dansmith | but | 20:12 |
| dansmith | halfway between would be some sort of exponential thing where we get a heartbeat when we start running, and then heartbeats after that come at increasingly long delays up to some threshold | 20:12 |
| dansmith | and the client expects this (or is told when the next one will be) so it plays along | 20:13 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: yeah you'd still want that periodic "I'm still working on this" heatbeat from the server | 20:13 |
| dansmith | I would yeah | 20:14 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: which isn't impossible - o.m. could send back "in process" rpc replies until the final rpc reply arrives. | 20:14 |
| dansmith | so the async/future thing you're talking about is really a separate thing, which could be done separately from all of this that I'm describing, and while cool, it's not something I really think we'd use at the moment, just FYI | 20:15 |
| dansmith | kgiusti: that's what my PoC is doing already yeah | 20:15 |
| dansmith | there's already something in o.msg that seemed to anticipate this potential in the future, although it had been marked for removal "In N" which never happened | 20:15 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: what's that? | 20:16 |
| dansmith | there's an "ending" flag, which tells the waiting client whether the reply is the last one or not, and the client waits until it sees the ending one, then returns that as the reply | 20:16 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: heh, yeah that was never used. | 20:17 |
| openstackgerrit | Dan Smith proposed openstack/oslo.messaging master: WIP: Heartbeat active calls https://review.openstack.org/546763 | 20:17 |
| dansmith | kgiusti: ^ | 20:17 |
| dansmith | don't laugh, was never meant to see the light of day | 20:17 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: np. I may laugh, but it will be a respectful laugh :) | 20:18 |
| dansmith | heh | 20:18 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: but I'm usually too busy laughing at my own work. | 20:18 |
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| kgiusti | dansmith: I'll take a look at this, but in the meantime I'm def not saying "hell no" :D | 20:19 |
| dansmith | okay | 20:19 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: so if you want to talk about it at PTG that'd be great. | 20:19 |
| dansmith | is there a schedule for Tuesday? | 20:19 |
| dansmith | for oslo stuff I mean | 20:19 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: not exactly a hard schedule, but there is a list of topics folks want to talk about: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/oslo-ptg-rocky | 20:21 |
| dansmith | okay | 20:22 |
| dansmith | well, I'll try to pop in there | 20:22 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: feel free to raise a topic or simply add an item to my O.M. rocky goals list so I (or you) can bring it up. | 20:23 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: I'll ping you on #messaging before we start if you want. | 20:23 |
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| dansmith | cool, I'll tag along with yours there yeah | 20:23 |
| kgiusti | dansmith: crap - I mean #openstack-oslo | 20:24 |
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| dansmith | ack, cool | 20:24 |
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| kgiusti | dansmith: plan. | 20:26 |
| dansmith | thanks! | 20:26 |
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