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| dims | jd_ : etcd upto 3.0.17 seems to work fine with tooz ("tox -e py27-etcd") | 12:13 |
| dims | jd_ : 3.1.3 fails on 2 tests | 12:14 |
| dims | at least intermittently | 12:16 |
| dims | hmm, IPCTestAPI, switching to linux to see if it's any better there | 12:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | Davanum Srinivas (dims) proposed openstack/tooz master: [WIP] Try latest etcd - 3.1.3 https://review.openstack.org/445470 | 12:34 |
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| jd_ | dims: IPC tests are not working well on Darwin if that is what you're seeing | 13:02 |
| dims | jd_ : yep | 13:02 |
| jd_ | I never dug why, since well, nobody really care :) | 13:02 |
| dims | :) | 13:02 |
| sileht | /1/15 | 13:24 |
| therve | dims, jd_ : I was thinking about reviving the work around using etcd as a backend for oslo.config | 13:38 |
| therve | Any interest/opinion? | 13:38 |
| jd_ | no opinion | 13:39 |
| jd_ | merely interested | 13:39 |
| jd_ | I'm not sure I really see the use case but I want to be convinced | 13:39 |
| jd_ | ;) | 13:39 |
| therve | jd_, Well, the use case is to remove the config files :) | 13:39 |
| jd_ | why are they a problem? | 13:40 |
| therve | And ship the configuration in etcd itself | 13:40 |
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| therve | Because they are stuff that you need to manage on disks on all your nodes | 13:40 |
| therve | Instead of an API to call | 13:40 |
| jd_ | therve: got an example? | 13:42 |
| therve | jd_, Of using etcd behind oslo.config? | 13:42 |
| jd_ | therve: yes, the kind of problem it solves that you can't solve with files | 13:42 |
| jd_ | I just want to hear a good use case :) | 13:42 |
| dims | therve : seen this already? (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/440835/) - bnemec is starting small there, objective would be what you stated | 13:42 |
| dims | bnemec : around? ^ | 13:43 |
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| therve | jd_, https://gist.github.com/chmouel/05fb715f96344161268c | 13:43 |
| therve | dims, Yeah I followed the discussion. The actual implementation is a much more trivial subject | 13:44 |
| therve | jd_, It's not really about not solving it with files, but rather not use files... | 13:44 |
| jd_ | therve: yeah so I guess being more stateless? | 13:45 |
| therve | jd_, Right | 13:46 |
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| therve | jd_, For example, kolla is doing some relatively weird stuff to expose configuration to the various openstack services | 13:46 |
| therve | Using volumes to have files available, maintaining the files on the volumes... | 13:47 |
| dims | therve : i'd support the use case, having hit this in several places | 13:47 |
| jd_ | therve: yeah I see | 13:48 |
| jd_ | makes sense | 13:48 |
| dims | therve : another example the keystone folks needed for was fernet keys, they initially wanted to use oslo.config but ended up defining their own stuff | 13:49 |
| jd_ | therve: does it play well with things like e.g. Puppet? | 13:49 |
| dims | lbragstad : right? ^ | 13:49 |
| therve | jd_, Well puppet only manages files. But it's easy to have them not step on each other toes | 13:49 |
| therve | dims, I guess that's another issue. They need the config to be reloaded, right? | 13:50 |
| jd_ | therve: so how are you supposed to fill etcd then? | 13:50 |
| therve | jd_, TBD? :) | 13:50 |
| * lbragstad reads back | 13:50 | |
| jd_ | therve: ok :) | 13:50 |
| therve | jd_, I think https://review.openstack.org/#/c/440835/ is the other side of the issue | 13:50 |
| dims | therve : y, we'll need some way to tell processes when things changed too (like the log level stuff) | 13:50 |
| jd_ | dims: SIGHUP? | 13:52 |
| therve | dims, jd_ : https://github.com/chmouel/oslo.config/commit/01ee54dd5219b1434eaac422055b58e77694d89f is the kind of change I'm thinking about currently | 13:52 |
| therve | (2 years old yesterday, woo) | 13:52 |
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| dims | therve : :) we need to convince dhellmann too | 13:53 |
| therve | dims, Yeah I'm testing the waters | 13:54 |
| dims | therve : here's another old one https://review.openstack.org/#/c/243114/ | 13:55 |
| dhellmann | dims, therve : as soon as someone can explain to me how to tell a service how to connect to etcd with a unique id that lets an operator configure different instances of the same type of service in different ways *without using a config file* then I'm on board. | 13:55 |
| dims | there you go therve :) ^ | 13:56 |
| dhellmann | you have to solve the deployment problem before any of the rest of the work is going to make sense | 13:56 |
| therve | dhellmann, OK, what about: nova --etcd-server http://10.0.0.1/openstack/nova/b79647f9-588a-47c2-be4e-310ac5291f92 | 13:56 |
| therve | Though I'm not sure you really want to configure the instances differently | 13:57 |
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| dhellmann | therve : some of the services other than nova may need to be configured differently | 13:58 |
| dhellmann | I assume there are some sort of credentials that would go in a URL like that | 13:58 |
| therve | dhellmann, Sure you can always define some kind of service class, no? IE not an unique ID | 13:58 |
| therve | I don't know if etcd supports auth. jd? | 13:59 |
| jd_ | I can't think of any service configured differently, that sounds weird | 13:59 |
| jd_ | therve: it does IIRC | 13:59 |
| therve | dhellmann, At any rate, you need some kind of bootstrap, sure. Why is that an issue? | 14:00 |
| dhellmann | jd_ , therve: in the past, the reason given for doing this was to make deployment tools "simpler" because they would be able to send the same config file to every host. If every host needs a unique URL, that argument doesn't make sense. There may be other reasons for using etcd, but I don't think I've heard any of them. I'm not against doing it, I just want to make sure there's some sort of user-visible benefit beyond | 14:01 |
| dhellmann | "etcd is what kubernetes uses" | 14:01 |
| dhellmann | we also have to handle the mutable/immutable config option situation | 14:02 |
| dhellmann | some options are cached inside code, so changing them in etcd won't change the service behavior | 14:02 |
| dhellmann | that's not a blocker, but we need to make sure we're communicating with deployers about limitations like that | 14:03 |
| dhellmann | (or fix the code to not cache the values) | 14:03 |
| therve | True, I don't have a plan to solve everything | 14:03 |
| therve | FTR I don't really care about k8s | 14:03 |
| therve | I want to deploy heat in a container. Having to push config files to that container is just kind of ridiculous | 14:03 |
| dhellmann | I don't want us to push out a half-baked feature without at least thinking through some of these issues | 14:03 |
| therve | It's like having a VM and manually doing the network | 14:04 |
| dhellmann | my point is that moving from static config to remotely served config is more than just providing a way to fetch things from urls or etcd | 14:04 |
| therve | dhellmann, It may be, but it doesn't have too in step 1? | 14:05 |
| dhellmann | we have some assumptions built into our services right now that we have to address | 14:05 |
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| therve | Yeah but it's a chicken and egg problem. We''re not going to do anything while those issues are not addressed? | 14:05 |
| therve | Meanwhile, even fetching config remotely at startup would be a win to me | 14:05 |
| dhellmann | address them in a spec, to at least have them written down with some sort of thought applied | 14:05 |
| dhellmann | fetching config remotely once at startup is one design we could do easily. does it buy us what we want? | 14:06 |
| dhellmann | what's the access pattern for config in etcd? one option at a time? | 14:06 |
| therve | To me it's better than mounting docker volumes and copying files to it | 14:06 |
| dhellmann | I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm suggesting that you work through more of the problem than writing an etcd driver for oslo.config so that when we roll this out into real services it works. | 14:07 |
| therve | I'm not sure what you mean by access pattern | 14:07 |
| dhellmann | for a typical application reading its config from etcd, does it fetch all of the config at one time or does it ask for individual config options as it needs them? | 14:07 |
| dhellmann | do deployers using etcd for config for other applications expect that if they change etcd the application notices that change automatically? | 14:08 |
| therve | I'm not a deployer and I don't use etcd, so I can't tell you | 14:08 |
| dhellmann | or do they expect to kill the container and start a new one each time they change the config? | 14:08 |
| dhellmann | we should get some input from someone who can answer those questions | 14:09 |
| dhellmann | maybe the architecture working group can help identify some people | 14:09 |
| therve | I guess | 14:10 |
| therve | It feels that we'll enter bikeshedding hell, and we'll talk about it again in 2 years :) | 14:12 |
| dhellmann | so instead we should build something that may not meet anyone's real requirements? | 14:12 |
| dhellmann | the driver is the easy part of this change. | 14:12 |
| dhellmann | I'll start a mailing list thread | 14:13 |
| therve | Well yeah. That's why I think we should do it! :) | 14:13 |
| dims | experimental :) | 14:13 |
| therve | Meeting anyone's requirements is also a good way to make sure we want do anything at all | 14:13 |
| therve | s/want/won't | 14:13 |
| dhellmann | if you don't know what you're building, why are you in such a hurry to start? | 14:14 |
| therve | ? | 14:14 |
| therve | I have a need, with a solution that works for me | 14:15 |
| therve | It's unfair to say "in a hurry", when discussions started 2 years ago and nothing happened | 14:16 |
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| dhellmann | but it's somehow fair to say that these questions I have are bikeshedding? | 14:19 |
| therve | No, I wasn't referring to your questions | 14:19 |
| dims | dhellmann : we can lay out exactly what we can do - example "applications can load the whole config just like we would load a whole file" | 14:21 |
| dims | dhellmann : and see what kind of feedback we get | 14:21 |
| dhellmann | dims : that would be a good step to take | 14:21 |
| dims | therve : i like the idea of a uuid or something to load options specific to a "thingy". would we have a base set of options and layer on the key/value pairs specific to a uuid? | 14:22 |
| dims | therve : that will turn into a question on how an operator would populate and maintain the etcd store | 14:23 |
| therve | dims, Right, we need to define some kind of structure | 14:24 |
| dims | therve : so let's lay down some structure, say a tool to set/update (may be from config files?) and the access pattern in a spec | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | do we need to build something to load config? or can we use existing tools for that? | 14:25 |
| dims | dhellmann : load from config (we have) and then save into etcd store (we will need) | 14:25 |
| dims | therve : if we can just point folks to existing etcd tools that others use, that may be good too, we don't need to invent | 14:26 |
| dhellmann | yeah, that's what I meant, do we actually need to do that? or can we just tell operators to use their normal etcd tools to set values in the store? | 14:26 |
| dims | right dhellmann | 14:26 |
| dims | we can just define the structure we expect | 14:27 |
| dhellmann | right | 14:28 |
| dhellmann | dims, therve : maybe one of you should start that ML thread, since I'm out next week for PTO | 14:29 |
| dims | therve : are you up for it? :) | 14:30 |
| therve | dims, Not sure to be honest :) | 14:31 |
| dims | therve : how about we get something into a spec first and then ML | 14:32 |
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| therve | dims, Sorry, I shouldn't have started this discussion. I'm too tried to drive it. | 14:47 |
| dims | therve : understood. though may i ask you to drop your ideas/thoughts into an etherpad? i can peel that onion next :) | 14:49 |
| therve | Sure | 14:50 |
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| dims | thanks therve ! | 14:52 |
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| openstackgerrit | Davanum Srinivas (dims) proposed openstack/tooz master: Switch tests to use latest etcd - 3.1.3 https://review.openstack.org/445470 | 15:17 |
| therve | dims, https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/oslo.config_etcd_backend | 15:20 |
| dims | therve : cool. so multiple urls means aggregate from all these sources (in the specified order) | 15:26 |
| therve | dims, Yeah it's the same semantic as multiple config-files currently | 15:27 |
| dims | right, makes sense | 15:28 |
| dims | then we don't have to dictate the url structure | 15:28 |
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| dims | SamYaple : here about config files i mentioned? :) | 15:29 |
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| SamYaple | dims: mayhaps | 15:31 |
| dims | SamYaple : so background, many times in the past we've had requests for oslo.config information to be not in a file.. so we have talked about backends like etcd, trying to re-raise that topic with this etherpad - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/oslo.config_etcd_backend | 15:33 |
| SamYaple | is this semi-related to the discussion we had come out of the PTG? | 15:34 |
| dims | y | 15:34 |
| SamYaple | i think jesse brought up the etcd point | 15:34 |
| SamYaple | cool | 15:34 |
| dims | SamYaple : thoughts here or on the etherpad. | 15:35 |
| dims | bnemec : ^ | 15:35 |
| SamYaple | dims: pinged odyssey4me on OSA with the etherpad as well. strong interest there | 15:42 |
| SamYaple | dims: looks like multistr opts are not going to work here | 15:43 |
| dims | SamYaple : need to refine the tree structure to support that | 15:44 |
| SamYaple | ive been thinking for a while on how to support multistr in any standard non-hacked-ini format, and im just not seeing how | 15:44 |
| SamYaple | what would that look like in etcd or any other format? | 15:45 |
| SamYaple | in yaml i might call it a list, but what about cases where you specify it in multiple configs | 15:45 |
| dims | example /openstack/heat/oslo_messaging_notifications/key/1 -> "abc" /openstack/heat/oslo_messaging_notifications/key/2 -> "xyz" | 15:46 |
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| SamYaple | dims: so are 1 and 2 arbitrary? | 15:47 |
| SamYaple | what if you are overriding 'key' with a second config | 15:48 |
| SamYaple | or appending | 15:48 |
| dims | SamYaple : do we allow append in the command line when we use config files? overriding would be picking up the key's values from the last url | 15:49 |
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| SamYaple | dims: i meant more in relation to the 1/2 naming | 15:52 |
| dims | SamYaple: added the question under challenges in etherpad | 15:52 |
| SamYaple | dims: danke | 15:52 |
| dims | ack, let's add stuff there and see if anyone has a better idea :) | 15:52 |
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| therve | dims, Aren't lists managed after file parsing? | 16:03 |
| therve | I thought they were | 16:04 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/tooz master: Switch tests to use latest etcd - 3.1.3 https://review.openstack.org/445470 | 17:58 |
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| ihrachys | sileht: fyi reported the RFE for oslo.messaging to allow to set timeout for all RPC communication as discussed during ptg: https://bugs.launchpad.net/oslo.messaging/+bug/1672836 | 18:50 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1672836 in oslo.messaging "[RFE] allow to set hard RPC timeout" [Undecided,New] | 18:50 |
| ihrachys | as for backoff RPC client, there is already a WIP from boden and a bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/oslo.messaging/+bug/1667445 | 18:50 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1667445 in oslo.messaging "[RFE] Backing off RPC client" [Undecided,New] | 18:50 |
| boden | yes, the WIP patch has had some discussion in the past, but not for awhile https://review.openstack.org/#/c/407722/ | 18:52 |
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| dims | harlowja : are you thinking of reworking tooz to support what Jay is doing? | 20:25 |
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| harlowja | dims the idea crossed my mind about 15 minute ago, lol | 20:29 |
| dims | y saw your email and was wondering | 20:29 |
| harlowja | some of the ideas maybe | 20:29 |
| harlowja | some are not right imho | 20:29 |
| harlowja | its really just a more capable member filtering api imho | 20:30 |
| harlowja | filtering/searching | 20:30 |
| harlowja | and concept of maintenance mode | 20:30 |
| harlowja | the rest i believe is mappable to tooz | 20:30 |
| harlowja | but ya, i'll wait on doing any work there :-P | 20:33 |
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| openstackgerrit | Anthony Washington proposed openstack/oslo.policy master: Add additional param to policy.RuleDefault https://review.openstack.org/439070 | 20:39 |
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| lifeless | dhellmann: hey | 23:21 |
| dhellmann | lifeless : hi! how're things? | 23:22 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: I haven't had time to prep a PR for Python's NEWS file management yet :( | 23:22 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: things are good but crazy busy | 23:22 |
| dhellmann | lifeless : I have a local branch I'm working on, but I keep getting distracted | 23:22 |
| dhellmann | let me push that somewhere you can see it | 23:22 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: I think we have 2 days left? | 23:22 |
| dhellmann | lifeless : https://github.com/dhellmann/cpython/tree/add-reno | 23:23 |
| dhellmann | oh, there was a deadline? | 23:23 |
| dhellmann | damn | 23:23 |
| dhellmann | I think the things left to do are break up some of the existing news to make examples, and then to update the build to generate Misc/NEWS instead of having the file checked in | 23:24 |
| lifeless | https://github.com/python/core-workflow/issues/6#issuecomment-284503174 | 23:24 |
| dhellmann | harlowja, jd_, sileht, bknudson_ : do any of you want to chime in on this thread about the folks asking oslo to adopt castellan? http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113863.html | 23:26 |
| harlowja | hmmmm | 23:26 |
| harlowja | i was thinking about it :-P | 23:26 |
| dhellmann | harlowja : ^^ | 23:26 |
| dhellmann | oh, got you the first time :-) | 23:26 |
| dhellmann | who am I missing. flaper87 ^^ | 23:26 |
| dhellmann | lifeless : I missed that comment. I was traveling. | 23:28 |
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| dhellmann | lifeless : it is not at all clear to me that the python-dev team is interested in using reno, based on the comments. they seem not to recognize that the benefit is you don't have to think about things like version numbers any more. | 23:30 |
| dhellmann | at least in advance of writing the ntoes | 23:30 |
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| lifeless | dhellmann: that seems like education. Whats the command you're using to build Misc/NEWS - just 'reno', or does it need parameters? | 23:39 |
| dhellmann | lifeless : it would be something like "reno report" and then redirected to a file, but the news file currently contains info that won't be in any notes so we'll have to accommodate the legacy information somehow | 23:40 |
| dhellmann | I thought maybe of moving NEWS to NEWS-legacy and then concatenating that with the output of "reno report" as a temporary solution, until the news file no longer needs to include the old data | 23:40 |
| lifeless | ok | 23:41 |
| lifeless | what info is missing? | 23:44 |
| dhellmann | let me look at my notes | 23:45 |
| dhellmann | lifeless : https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/reno-cpython | 23:45 |
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