| puck | o/ | 07:00 |
|---|---|---|
| fkr | o/ | 07:00 |
| tobberydberg | o/ | 07:00 |
| puck | Gosh, it's busy in here! | 07:00 |
| tobberydberg | haha | 07:00 |
| fkr | wohooo | 07:00 |
| * fkr is looking forward to a report from Vancouver | 07:01 | |
| tobberydberg | Don't hope for to much ;-) | 07:01 |
| tobberydberg | #startmeeting publiccloud_sig | 07:02 |
| opendevmeet | Meeting started Wed Jul 5 07:02:27 2023 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is tobberydberg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 07:02 |
| opendevmeet | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 07:02 |
| opendevmeet | The meeting name has been set to 'publiccloud_sig' | 07:02 |
| tobberydberg | Kick it off or hold a few minutes if people join late? | 07:03 |
| puck | Wait till 5 minutes past? | 07:03 |
| tobberydberg | +1 | 07:04 |
| puck | ding dsing | 07:05 |
| tobberydberg | 1. (fkr) Quick re-cap of discussion regarding domain admin role that happened on Monday 5th June, 2023 | 07:06 |
| fkr | that was from two weeks ago ;) | 07:06 |
| fkr | (the agenda item) | 07:06 |
| puck | 4 weeks ago. | 07:06 |
| * fkr scratches his head | 07:06 | |
| tobberydberg | Aha :-) | 07:06 |
| puck | I renamed the June 7th meeting to July 5th. | 07:06 |
| tobberydberg | Ok ok | 07:07 |
| fkr | I'm working in my head to summarize it | 07:08 |
| tobberydberg | So, start with recap from Vancouver? | 07:08 |
| puck | ha | 07:08 |
| tobberydberg | hehe | 07:08 |
| puck | I believe there was a post to openstack-discuss about it | 07:08 |
| fkr | - for once while everyone (= CSPs) said domain admin role is useful, it was apparent that there are quite a few things that CSPs don't want customers to be doing (even with domain admin) | 07:09 |
| fkr | - partially due to being afraid of side-effects (in the example of purging stuff that is not properly purged) | 07:09 |
| * puck nods | 07:10 | |
| fkr | - as such the understanding of 'domain admin' is something that would need proper definition and to assure (upfront) a common understanding | 07:10 |
| fkr | - on the long run (done properly) it would ease a lot of things (especially for newcomers to the CSP landscape that do not yet have their own tooling around it) | 07:11 |
| fkr | - Cleura, OTC and PlusServer were there CSPs that took part in the discussion | 07:11 |
| tobberydberg | This was discussed in Vancouver as well, just to have that said | 07:12 |
| fkr | - we want to schedule a follow-up session that is set at a time that suits catalyst cloud | 07:12 |
| fkr | tobberydberg: and there I'd be really interested in the results | 07:12 |
| fkr | :) | 07:12 |
| tobberydberg | Trying to find the etherpad... | 07:12 |
| tobberydberg | But I don't at this point | 07:13 |
| puck | Cool. Thank you for that. One of my colleagues has prepared some policies that will implement domain admin in a way that we think will work - we're called it organisations. I need to finish a security review of it, because, yeah, that's critical for this kind of thing. | 07:13 |
| fkr | :) | 07:14 |
| tobberydberg | In general, they are dropping the "different scope thing" from what I understood, or at least that is the plan | 07:14 |
| puck | I guess in some respects "domain admin" will mean different things to different clouds. | 07:14 |
| fkr | puck: exactly | 07:14 |
| puck | We think that policies will actually allow it. | 07:15 |
| tobberydberg | Had some discussions about alternate plans, for example a role that can only do "domain admin stuff", that in that case only need to exist in keystone | 07:15 |
| puck | But, yet to follow prove that! | 07:15 |
| puck | Another alternate plan is to make more use of Adjutant to provide "admin" workflows. | 07:15 |
| tobberydberg | That would simplify it quite a bit, even though "domain scope" would have taken that further | 07:16 |
| tobberydberg | I have too little knowledge about Adjutant. Is it still an "active official openstack project" puck? | 07:16 |
| puck | We currently use Adjutant for signups, inviting new/existing users to a project, quota adjustments. | 07:17 |
| puck | Hmm... I think it is. | 07:17 |
| puck | Hmm, looks like last release was Zed. Arse. | 07:18 |
| puck | I expect that even with "domain admin", we'd still use Adjutant, because "domain admin" doesn't solve everything. | 07:19 |
| puck | That's a great recap fkr, sounds like there is interest for it, but more discussion required. | 07:19 |
| tobberydberg | Indeed | 07:20 |
| puck | Oh, ordering on https://releases.openstack.org/teams/adjutant.html is confusing. There is an Antelope release of Adjutant. | 07:20 |
| tobberydberg | To be frank, not sure what the best way forward is, especially if they drop the domain/system scope thing | 07:20 |
| tobberydberg | Yea, the ordering becomes strange there indeed | 07:21 |
| puck | Domains might be dropped?! Hmm... We had planned on allowing customers to back their own auth source to their domains to allow AD/LDAP integration for customers. | 07:21 |
| tobberydberg | domain-scope-thing | 07:21 |
| tobberydberg | not domains per se :-) | 07:21 |
| puck | Ah, huh | 07:22 |
| puck | Ah ha | 07:22 |
| puck | (typo) | 07:22 |
| tobberydberg | https://docs.openstack.org/keystone/rocky/admin/identity-tokens.html | 07:24 |
| tobberydberg | That is how I understood it at least | 07:24 |
| tobberydberg | https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/rbac-operator-feedback-vancouver2023 | 07:24 |
| fkr | ah | 07:24 |
| fkr | thanks | 07:25 |
| puck | I would have joined some of those meetings, but the timezone delta sucked for us. | 07:25 |
| tobberydberg | It was touched in that session, but mostly discussions around project reader role | 07:25 |
| puck | And I had my kids that week, so getting up in the middle of the night wasn't an option. | 07:25 |
| fkr | puck: I was not aware that those sessions were remotely available | 07:25 |
| puck | Ha, actually, neither here. I didn't bother looking! :) | 07:26 |
| tobberydberg | No they were not unfortunate | 07:26 |
| fkr | shall I see to organize a follow up videocall session for us? | 07:26 |
| puck | I'm keen. | 07:27 |
| fkr | this would actually lead also to the next point on the agenda (how to get more people active here) | 07:27 |
| fkr | tobberydberg, OK to jump to next item on the agenda as well? | 07:27 |
| tobberydberg | for sure | 07:28 |
| tobberydberg | Yes | 07:28 |
| tobberydberg | 2. (fkr) Further ways and ideas to get more people involved in the public cloud SIG | 07:28 |
| fkr | in the SCS world I organize some regular formats for SCS Operators (for example a monthly lean coffee where problems / hurdles are discussed) and I wondered wether a format in the OpenInfra Public Cloud SIG scope would be nice | 07:29 |
| fkr | for bringing together OpenStack Operators from here to discuss things as technical hurdles, exchange ideas | 07:29 |
| fkr | i do think it is different than pure textual format | 07:30 |
| tobberydberg | It sure is, and becomes more effective and fruitful discussions | 07:30 |
| puck | Catalyst Cloud occasionally, should be more regular, chats directly with an Australian OpenStack cloud. | 07:30 |
| tobberydberg | I'm totally fine with that. We could use this slit for it potentially? | 07:31 |
| fkr | tobberydberg: +1 | 07:31 |
| puck | I can certainly check and see if they're aware of it. | 07:31 |
| fkr | I'd be open to facilitate / moderate it | 07:31 |
| fkr | (actually, I'd like to do that :) | 07:31 |
| puck | (hah, cross conversation, but my statement still holds about the Aussies) | 07:32 |
| fkr | sorry | 07:32 |
| fkr | :) | 07:32 |
| tobberydberg | +1 | 07:32 |
| puck | Could OpenInfra reach out to the public clouds that are members and make sure they know about this SIG? | 07:33 |
| fkr | puck: please do get them in the loop! | 07:33 |
| fkr | puck: I can reach out to OpenInfra | 07:33 |
| tobberydberg | Should we do it asap, lets say next meeting in 2 weeks, or hold off until after summer in Europe? | 07:33 |
| fkr | tobberydberg: in two weeks works fine for me | 07:33 |
| tobberydberg | puck They do that to every new member of the foundation that are a public cloud | 07:33 |
| puck | cool | 07:34 |
| fkr | puck: the "please do get them in the loop" was in regards to the australian cloud | 07:34 |
| puck | Yup, that's how I took it | 07:34 |
| tobberydberg | BUT ... I actually think that if we put something together that can be mentioned in a newsletter or something, that can be valuable as well | 07:34 |
| fkr | tobberydberg: +1 | 07:34 |
| tobberydberg | good idea actually | 07:34 |
| tobberydberg | We can look for a even more directed message to all public openstack clouds as well... | 07:35 |
| puck | I guess something there is, being listed as a public cloud with OpenInfra, the required membership fee is a barrier... | 07:36 |
| tobberydberg | Yea it is | 07:38 |
| puck | Looking at https://www.openstack.org/marketplace/public-clouds/ , I know there are more public clouds that are using OpenStack. | 07:38 |
| fkr | that is a short list | 07:39 |
| fkr | i'm surprised about its shortness | 07:40 |
| tobberydberg | Yea, lets think a bit about how we can reach out there for more exposure. Could be something like a section on one of those pages mentioning the group etc | 07:40 |
| tobberydberg | As puck said, you need to be a member | 07:40 |
| tobberydberg | I think that some outreach in the SCS world might be another way as well? | 07:40 |
| fkr | tobberydberg: yes (that is also the reason why frosty-geek is in this room) | 07:41 |
| fkr | :) | 07:41 |
| tobberydberg | +1 | 07:42 |
| tobberydberg | Wrote a few notes in the etherpad about this | 07:44 |
| tobberydberg | 3. (puck) Community support for users | 07:44 |
| tobberydberg | lets take the next topic ... soon out of time :-) | 07:44 |
| puck | Cool. This came up as some feedback from one of our customers something like "finding how to do this on AWS is easy, lots of places to find help". The options for OpenStack are limited, and kinda suck. | 07:45 |
| puck | I listed the recommedations on the agenda, which is just stackoverflow for users. | 07:45 |
| puck | I don't think emailing openstack-discuss is a valid suggestion. | 07:45 |
| puck | Is this something that others are seeing as a problem? | 07:46 |
| tobberydberg | Totally agree that email list isn't the best way for users... | 07:46 |
| tobberydberg | Yes, I see that as an issue | 07:46 |
| puck | That is listed on https://ask.openstack.org/ | 07:46 |
| puck | Which is a shit suggestion for users. :) | 07:47 |
| tobberydberg | the hard part of it is that all openstack clouds work different when it comes to details, compared to AWS for example | 07:47 |
| puck | Agreed, but the general concepts are the same. Mostly APIs, cloud-init, Terraform etc. | 07:47 |
| puck | We do have our own docs (and we know some other clouds have forked them!), but we can't cover everything. | 07:48 |
| tobberydberg | Yes, it would make it soooo much better than nothing :-) | 07:48 |
| tobberydberg | We have started our "journey" of a docs site as well | 07:48 |
| tobberydberg | But, to be frank, I've used your docs from time to time as well :-) | 07:48 |
| fkr | tobberydberg: in detail yes (which is why "we" (scs) think that it is worthwhile to have something like SCS) - but the concepts are the same and just as in teaching, it is needed to teach users about the concepts then | 07:48 |
| puck | https://github.com/catalyst-cloud/catalystcloud-docs BTW | 07:48 |
| puck | ha, awesome. :) | 07:49 |
| tobberydberg | One example: Try to find the way how you get the openstack client working on windows out there :-) | 07:49 |
| tobberydberg | Not that I ever recommend that, but we do have customers that don't know anything else than that | 07:49 |
| puck | https://docs.catalystcloud.nz/sdks-and-toolkits/windows-cli.html :) | 07:50 |
| fkr | :) | 07:50 |
| puck | And yeah, understood. | 07:50 |
| fkr | just to better understand: | 07:50 |
| fkr | puck: could this also be a 'problem' of the right content for the right people? | 07:51 |
| fkr | see https://diataxis.fr/ | 07:51 |
| fkr | diataxis basically divides documentation into different types of documentation | 07:51 |
| fkr | tutorials is something different than a reference guide | 07:51 |
| puck | fkr, yup, totally, and yes, completely right. And Youtube videos != documentation. | 07:51 |
| fkr | and often users are looking much for tutorial than reference guide | 07:51 |
| puck | We try to provide both, but tutorials need to be refreshed. | 07:52 |
| puck | So, I'm not sure on the best way forward here, but I was wondering if others are finding this a problem (the answer appears to be "yes"), and what others might be doing to try and resolve it. | 07:53 |
| tobberydberg | yes | 07:53 |
| tobberydberg | I would assume that the "right way" would be have the documentation on docs.openstack.org | 07:54 |
| puck | Yes. | 07:54 |
| puck | Oh. | 07:54 |
| puck | And also, oh my goodness, having docs missing from the latest release sucks. | 07:54 |
| tobberydberg | yes | 07:54 |
| puck | That sucks so so so much | 07:54 |
| tobberydberg | That is the hard part about that, keeping it up to date for all releases etc etc | 07:55 |
| tobberydberg | https://docs.openstack.org/operations-guide/ | 07:55 |
| puck | Better to have it, even if people find it is incorrect than to require users/admins to go back through each version to find the last documentation. | 07:55 |
| tobberydberg | You have the operator guide that is a little bit different | 07:56 |
| tobberydberg | That is not "release cycle dependent" | 07:56 |
| tobberydberg | But it sucks so much that there are no "User Guide" in the same sense | 07:56 |
| tobberydberg | It is more detailed with each and every project | 07:57 |
| puck | But look at https://docs.openstack.org/2023.1/user/ it is missing Neutron! | 07:57 |
| tobberydberg | and plenty of guides for projects are missing | 07:57 |
| tobberydberg | exactly | 07:57 |
| puck | Like, WRD? | 07:58 |
| puck | er, WTF? | 07:58 |
| tobberydberg | I would assume due to the fact of not up to date with last release | 07:58 |
| puck | Have the projects really changed that much? No. | 07:58 |
| tobberydberg | The guides that exist are actually good and detailed, some better than other, but just the fact that its hard to find if it isn't updated with the last release sucks | 07:59 |
| puck | Any ideas on how we get those pulled through? | 08:00 |
| tobberydberg | AND ... I think something more "generic" or "use case focused" would be needed | 08:00 |
| tobberydberg | Like docs.catalystcloud.nz or docs.cleura.cloud is | 08:00 |
| fkr | I'll move my attention to the IaaS call @ SCS now | 08:00 |
| puck | Agreed, that's why we wrote our own docs. | 08:00 |
| fkr | thanks for this nice and lively discussion today :) | 08:00 |
| puck | Okay, outta time. Good meeting! :) | 08:00 |
| tobberydberg | exactly the same here ... and it also becomes more "single cloud focused" ... illing and what not... | 08:00 |
| tobberydberg | Yes, lets think about if that is something for this group to "take on" or make suggestions for ... I guess it will be talking to TC to get it in place, if that is what we think is the right approach | 08:02 |
| puck | aye | 08:02 |
| tobberydberg | Thanks for a good meeting and have a great day or a good sleep ;-) | 08:02 |
| tobberydberg | #endmeeting | 08:02 |
| opendevmeet | Meeting ended Wed Jul 5 08:02:34 2023 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 08:02 |
| opendevmeet | Minutes: https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/publiccloud_sig/2023/publiccloud_sig.2023-07-05-07.02.html | 08:02 |
| opendevmeet | Minutes (text): https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/publiccloud_sig/2023/publiccloud_sig.2023-07-05-07.02.txt | 08:02 |
| opendevmeet | Log: https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/publiccloud_sig/2023/publiccloud_sig.2023-07-05-07.02.log.html | 08:02 |
| puck | I'm off to get some dinner ready. :) | 08:02 |
| frickler | fyi I've notified the release team about the ordering of releases on their team pages | 08:38 |
| frickler | also neutron never had a user guide, so that's not a regression. still pretty worthwhile to write one I'd say, if someone was so inclined | 08:39 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.3 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!