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| mihalis68 | #startmeeting Ops Meetup Team | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Mar 20 14:00:28 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mihalis68. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Ops Meetup Team)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ops_meetup_team' | 14:00 |
| mihalis68 | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ops-meetups-team | 14:00 |
| smcginnis | o/ | 14:01 |
| jamesmcarthur | o/ | 14:01 |
| mrhillsman | o/ | 14:01 |
| mihalis68 | o/ | 14:02 |
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| mihalis68 | hello everyone! | 14:02 |
| mihalis68 | #topic actions | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "actions (Meeting topic: Ops Meetup Team)" | 14:02 | |
| shintaro | hi | 14:02 |
| mihalis68 | I ask people to self-report their actions | 14:02 |
| mihalis68 | I have a few in my queue | 14:03 |
| mihalis68 | work on the ops guide wiki - no progress other than the discussion in tokyo | 14:03 |
| shintaro | Done Tokyo! | 14:03 |
| mihalis68 | and very well done it was too! | 14:03 |
| smcginnis | Thanks for the great work shintaro! | 14:03 |
| mihalis68 | I'm also working on a proposal to host in august, but we don't have anything yet | 14:03 |
| shintaro | thank you | 14:04 |
| mihalis68 | any more actions to report? | 14:04 |
| jamesmcarthur | mihalis68: Not sure if this fits in on the actions side or not... | 14:05 |
| mihalis68 | actually one update on the ops guide wiki from Anne - she looked into setting an approver for that wiki, but couldn't find a setting. It seems (according to her) she was remembering a setting available in the women of openstack wiki (only) | 14:05 |
| jamesmcarthur | But I wanted to note that the Foundation staff really wants to help the Ops community have a successful event. | 14:05 |
| mihalis68 | so we actually don't have much of a plan for documents that come out of core openstack docs into community-edited wikis | 14:06 |
| jamesmcarthur | I've been working on a lengthly email with some thoughts and would like to solicit feedback from this group before sending it to the larger Ops mailing list. | 14:06 |
| mihalis68 | sure | 14:06 |
| jamesmcarthur | Great :) I'll send out after the meeting today. | 14:07 |
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| mihalis68 | #topic tokyo recap | 14:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "tokyo recap (Meeting topic: Ops Meetup Team)" | 14:07 | |
| mihalis68 | I emailed the ops meetups team with some thoughts on how tokyo went. Shintaro responded, but we haven't shared that with the wider community just yet | 14:08 |
| mihalis68 | should I cut and paste here? | 14:08 |
| shintaro | or on the etherpad? | 14:08 |
| mrhillsman | ^ | 14:09 |
| mrhillsman | i think i responded - albeit very short response :) | 14:09 |
| mihalis68 | I just dumped them in todays agenda | 14:10 |
| mihalis68 | the things we need to do better next time are: | 14:11 |
| mihalis68 | verify moderators at the beginning of each | 14:11 |
| mihalis68 | day | 14:11 |
| mihalis68 | have a master of ceremonies for each room if more than one | 14:11 |
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| mihalis68 | e.g. shintaro was in the telecom track room quite a lot and the main room didn't have anyone in charge | 14:11 |
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| mihalis68 | more consideration of language issues | 14:12 |
| shintaro | language issues are more likely in Asian countries | 14:13 |
| mihalis68 | we ended up having to suggest having translator support for some people who tried to participate in english but struggled. Now of course my japanese is ... none ... so definitely not a criciticism | 14:13 |
| mihalis68 | anyone else have suggestions for the future based on how it went in Tokyo? | 14:13 |
| shintaro | We need more promotion on agenda creation. and if possible, ask the attendees to put in some contents before the meetup. | 14:14 |
| mihalis68 | I also felt that the "working session" concept met with varying success, let's say | 14:14 |
| mihalis68 | yes, the agenda and moderators are the heart of the event, and the biggest struggle | 14:15 |
| mrhillsman | i think the working session came from new york and milan | 14:15 |
| mihalis68 | for example : I put ceph on the proposed topics list, it received several +1s, so I volunteered to moderate that session | 14:15 |
| mihalis68 | however I ended up doing more of a ceph lecture | 14:15 |
| mrhillsman | or were more successful there because there were folks from UC working groups / teams in attendance | 14:15 |
| mihalis68 | it was definitely "working sessions" in my first ops event (Philadelphia/comcast) | 14:16 |
| mrhillsman | mexico city was the only one for me that did not have | 14:17 |
| mrhillsman | not even on the agenda i mean | 14:17 |
| mihalis68 | mexico city was working sessions, not sure what you're saying | 14:17 |
| mihalis68 | for example the first session was documentation. I moderated but it was a roundtable discussion style thing, definitely not a presentation | 14:18 |
| shintaro | Good balance of ops and devs/foundation seems to work better | 14:18 |
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| mihalis68 | yeah, for those not there there was a very interesting discussion on the often-discussed idea of somehow merging ops meetups and ptg | 14:19 |
| mrhillsman | i think of working sessions as actually working on something vs discussion | 14:20 |
| mrhillsman | discussion could be presentation and/or going through an etherpad | 14:20 |
| smcginnis | Maybe we need to change it from "moderator" to something else. To me at least, my expectation was moderating would just involve asking leading questions and making sure everyone got a chance to speak. But it sounds like we are actually looking for moderators to be closer to be something more than that. | 14:20 |
| mrhillsman | just my perspective/definition difference | 14:21 |
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| mrhillsman | but i got you | 14:21 |
| mihalis68 | moderating is meant to be what you say Sean, as I understand it, however when the room is unresponsive you have to adapt or it feels like failing | 14:21 |
| mrhillsman | ^ | 14:22 |
| smcginnis | It seemed like there was an expectation of a lot more background preparation. | 14:22 |
| mihalis68 | I mean, the tradition handed down by Tom has always been that the moderator is just a faciitator | 14:22 |
| mihalis68 | for LTS in mexico, for example just a few comments were needed to light the room on fire (metaphorically speaking!) | 14:22 |
| mihalis68 | we had ops with strong feelings, representatives of distros who want this to happen e.g. maria from redhat | 14:23 |
| mihalis68 | that conversation was definitely "working together" not a presentation from the front (although there's no code involved) | 14:23 |
| jamesmcarthur | Perhaps a light agenda for each working session would help facilitate things? | 14:23 |
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| jamesmcarthur | I mean, come in with some goals and discussion points for the gropu. | 14:23 |
| mrhillsman | ^ we have those | 14:23 |
| mihalis68 | we did have that for most sessions, but for some of them the room was quite unresponsive | 14:24 |
| jamesmcarthur | got it | 14:24 |
| jamesmcarthur | that's frustrating | 14:24 |
| mihalis68 | I suspect culture and language were more of an impediment that I had previously anticipated | 14:24 |
| mrhillsman | sounds like it | 14:24 |
| jamesmcarthur | One of the ideas we've been discussing with the UC (and I discuss this a bit in my email) is to start putting Ops tracks in OpenStack Days. | 14:25 |
| mihalis68 | one of the local attendees felt the need to tell his fellow attendees to speak up and not feel intimidated. He mentioned that a -1 on a code review can feel like personal rejection, for example | 14:25 |
| mrhillsman | maybe not so much of a problem but rather enlightening factor | 14:25 |
| jamesmcarthur | Maybe if we get some feedback from users at the OpenStack Days events, that would provide some more ammo to spark conversation. | 14:26 |
| mihalis68 | yes, my goal in mentioning is to work out how to do even better in future evnts | 14:26 |
| mrhillsman | i think also jamesmcarthur that can help ^ | 14:26 |
| mrhillsman | to know beforehand culture/language nuances | 14:26 |
| mihalis68 | One interesting bit of info, PTG may not continue as is. Without getting into too much detail, the next one is the last one guaranteed to happen | 14:27 |
| mihalis68 | so any plan to merge ops meetups into those is already questionable | 14:27 |
| jamesmcarthur | mihalis68: that's not been decided yet | 14:27 |
| mrhillsman | ^ | 14:28 |
| shintaro | I think I need to train local ops on how to do working sessions since they have not attended PTG nor Forum before. | 14:28 |
| mihalis68 | that's what Ann told me | 14:28 |
| smcginnis | We should know after the board of directors meeting right before the Vancouver summit. | 14:28 |
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| mihalis68 | I'm not saying they won't happen after then, only that they are not guaranteed to happen | 14:28 |
| jamesmcarthur | Perhaps a miscommunication, but it's definitely still on the table. | 14:28 |
| mrhillsman | shintaro i think that is a good comment in general and to jamesmcarthur point may be helped via openstack days, local user groups having some format for facilitating ops meetup like sessions | 14:29 |
| mihalis68 | I'm not betting the farm on openstack days - openstack days east simply didn't happen last year (the ones for this neck of the woods) | 14:30 |
| smcginnis | I wonder though if the ops meetup was linked to it, if that would make it more likely to always happen. | 14:31 |
| mrhillsman | that's fine no concern for those that do not happen :) | 14:31 |
| mrhillsman | pretty sure there are some user groups that are listed that are not active | 14:31 |
| aprice | mihalis68: there are several OpenStack Days around the world that have voiced interest in having this event as the users and operators and interested in that kind of opportunity, particularly in Europe and Asia where the events continue to grow. | 14:31 |
| mrhillsman | but for those that are there are probably some things that could be helped using those that are | 14:31 |
| mihalis68 | Oh definitely. When openstack days happen, I think operators should attend! I was disappointed we didn't get one in NE USA last year | 14:32 |
| mihalis68 | in the meanwhile, though, there seemed good interest in a traditional Ops Meetup in NYC in August this year | 14:32 |
| mihalis68 | by the way, the nature of sessions at those events is described fairly clear here: | 14:33 |
| mihalis68 | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Operations/Meetups | 14:33 |
| mihalis68 | we had "general sessions" which we hoped would require light moderation, but in the end needed quite strong, active leading by the moderator | 14:33 |
| mihalis68 | Any more for Tokyo recap? | 14:35 |
| mrhillsman | timecheck - 25 minues :) | 14:35 |
| mihalis68 | #topic august 2018 meetup | 14:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "august 2018 meetup (Meeting topic: Ops Meetup Team)" | 14:35 | |
| mihalis68 | as mentioned, Bloomberg is trying to obtain a venue and make a proposal for an Ops Meetup in NYC, August this year | 14:36 |
| shintaro | I will put up some statistics on the etherpad later. | 14:36 |
| mihalis68 | unfortunately Civic Hall (the venue we provided in august 2016) has ditched that space | 14:36 |
| mihalis68 | we are talking to another similar organization, but can't show any results yet | 14:36 |
| mihalis68 | along with Bloomberg, Verizon and Walmart have strong interest in that event, since they have teams in the region | 14:37 |
| jamesmcarthur | So, this is also in the email, but we are able to host at the PTG in North America, but we would need to know by April 4. | 14:37 |
| mrhillsman | personally, just my .02 of course, i think we should really resolve concerns related to ^ | 14:37 |
| mihalis68 | When I read the definition of PTG, it is not for me. | 14:37 |
| mrhillsman | like ^ | 14:37 |
| jamesmcarthur | If it was hosted there, Ops Meetup would get its own space, branding, etc.. | 14:37 |
| mihalis68 | This was discussed quite a bit in Tokyo | 14:37 |
| smcginnis | I think that would be great to make sure there was still separate branding and space. | 14:38 |
| jamesmcarthur | mihalis68: up to this point, it's been for Project Teams. However, the event could certainly change to fit the OPs Meetup as well. | 14:38 |
| smcginnis | Same event, just happens to be at the same time and place as the PTG. | 14:38 |
| jamesmcarthur | We'd even consider renaming it. | 14:38 |
| smcginnis | Allowing at least some cross-polination. | 14:38 |
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| jamesmcarthur | But yeah... it would allow for evening conversations and such, which I think could be fruitful for the whole community. | 14:38 |
| mihalis68 | yes, I contend it would have to change, and in which case many things become possible | 14:39 |
| jamesmcarthur | If you all decided to hold the Ops Meetup there, it has already been agreed that the branding around the event and space would be adapted for your needs. | 14:39 |
| mihalis68 | here's what it says currently | 14:39 |
| mihalis68 | "Who Should Not Attend | 14:39 |
| mihalis68 | The event is not optimized for non-contributors or people who can’t relate to a specific project team. Each team is given a single room and attendees are expected to spend all their time with their project team. Attendees who can’t pick a specific team to work with are encouraged to skip the event in favor of attending the OpenStack Summit, where a broader range of topics is discussed." | 14:39 |
| jamesmcarthur | Right. I'm saying that would change. | 14:40 |
| mihalis68 | ok good | 14:40 |
| mrhillsman | like summit and opendev | 14:40 |
| jamesmcarthur | Because now it would be both Ops and a Project Teams meeting. | 14:40 |
| mrhillsman | two different events same space | 14:40 |
| mihalis68 | Ann put it very nicely "when two people move in together, it's important that they both make changes, move their stuff, etc" | 14:40 |
| smcginnis | :) | 14:40 |
| jamesmcarthur | I would think of it more like you rented an apartment next door and get to see each other in the halls ;) | 14:40 |
| mrhillsman | ^ | 14:40 |
| mrhillsman | i was trying to think of something with less holes lol | 14:41 |
| smcginnis | Great analogy. :) | 14:41 |
| mrhillsman | same complex different apartments | 14:41 |
| mihalis68 | Sure. Her comment was very apt for some ideas that were proposed previously where the ops event was sort of like crashing the event and trying to snag people in the hallways | 14:41 |
| mrhillsman | hrm, never got that from previous ideas | 14:42 |
| mrhillsman | that's unfortunate but good to know | 14:42 |
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| mihalis68 | is the next PTG defined anywhere? | 14:42 |
| jamesmcarthur | mihalis68: not yet. It would largely be dependent on if the Ops Meetup were co-located there. | 14:43 |
| jamesmcarthur | In which case we would update the language and branding to reflect that. | 14:43 |
| jamesmcarthur | It's just a web page at the moment and can easily change :) | 14:43 |
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| jamesmcarthur | We'd be happy to collaborate with you all to make sure the language reflects the event you want to put on, | 14:44 |
| mihalis68 | do you have rough dates? | 14:44 |
| mrhillsman | should this be voted on? feels like we will just continue to discuss/philosophy without | 14:44 |
| jamesmcarthur | So that the Dev and Ops communities are comfortable | 14:44 |
| mrhillsman | with traditional as fallback | 14:44 |
| jamesmcarthur | week of September 10 | 14:44 |
| jamesmcarthur | in North America | 14:45 |
| smcginnis | 15 minutes | 14:45 |
| mrhillsman | or just do it :) | 14:45 |
| jamesmcarthur | (all these details are in the email I'm sending over too ftr) | 14:45 |
| smcginnis | With NY already in the works, that makes it a little trickier. | 14:45 |
| mihalis68 | right now we look like having a viable event in august with three sponsors and other stated interest. I'm not sure that's a "fallback" | 14:45 |
| smcginnis | But I think if we decided to do this, it might make it more likely that the PTG will continue to be around past September. | 14:45 |
| jamesmcarthur | smcginnis: I think it would certainly show the board that it's an important event for the whole community | 14:46 |
| jamesmcarthur | mihalis68: Would those sponsors consider sponsoring it at a different venue? | 14:46 |
| mrhillsman | "around past September" ? | 14:46 |
| smcginnis | Or if it's too late to stop the New York train (or undesired at this point) at least declaring the public intention of aligning with the PTG would be good stuff to bring to the BoD in May. | 14:47 |
| mrhillsman | or just around Sept | 14:47 |
| mrhillsman | asking because Berlin is Nov of course | 14:47 |
| VW | hey guys - sorry for being mia for most of this | 14:48 |
| jamesmcarthur | To be clear, we already have a venue and space lined up for September. | 14:48 |
| mrhillsman | ok | 14:48 |
| mrhillsman | hey VW | 14:48 |
| mihalis68 | where's the venue? | 14:48 |
| jamesmcarthur | We're going into contract with them, so we can't disclose until after April 9. | 14:48 |
| smcginnis | jamesmcarthur: And would that venue accomodate another 100+ people for a simultaneous event. | 14:48 |
| jamesmcarthur | But it's in the US | 14:48 |
| jamesmcarthur | And the date is the week of September 10 | 14:48 |
| jamesmcarthur | smcginnis: yes | 14:49 |
| smcginnis | jamesmcarthur: Can you share what general area of the US? | 14:49 |
| smcginnis | East, west, central? | 14:49 |
| jamesmcarthur | We just have to give them the word that we want the space by April 4 | 14:49 |
| jamesmcarthur | Central | 14:49 |
| smcginnis | jamesmcarthur: There aren't any trains close by? :) | 14:49 |
| mrhillsman | hehe | 14:49 |
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| mrhillsman | get your hook out the water smcginnis | 14:50 |
| VW | smcginnis, mihalis68 - I, myself am a convert to this idea of co-location, so I'm happy to discuss with either of you in more detail offline | 14:50 |
| smcginnis | mrhillsman: hehe | 14:50 |
| mihalis68 | sure | 14:50 |
| VW | but I think we can structure the sessions to honor the intent of both of the original events | 14:50 |
| smcginnis | VW: I was originally against it when we spoke about it in the past, but I think I've come around to the benefits. | 14:50 |
| VW | but also reap the bennifit of after hour social interactions, etc | 14:51 |
| smcginnis | VW: Totally agree. | 14:51 |
| mihalis68 | to answer the question of would the sponsors consider sponsoring a different venue, I am not sure they would tbh | 14:51 |
| mrhillsman | same here, just quicker to come around i guess :) | 14:51 |
| smcginnis | The after hours part I think could be really beneficial for all. | 14:51 |
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| aprice | ++ | 14:51 |
| mrhillsman | 9 minutes ;) | 14:51 |
| mihalis68 | but it depends on the details. the amounts we put into ops meetups are small and bloomberg is very happy with the cost/benefit | 14:51 |
| mihalis68 | we declined to sponsor ptg, it was a lot more money | 14:52 |
| smcginnis | But I feel like there are a few of us now for this that are dominating the discussion. I don't want to railroad the whole group. (pun intended) | 14:52 |
| mihalis68 | neither do i and sorry if it seems that way | 14:52 |
| mrhillsman | lol | 14:52 |
| mrhillsman | i was saying earlier to that i think we need to just write down the concerns and address them | 14:53 |
| mrhillsman | if we can at all | 14:53 |
| mrhillsman | and if it makes sense, move forward | 14:53 |
| smcginnis | Maybe a ML thread? | 14:53 |
| mrhillsman | if not, move forward :) | 14:53 |
| smcginnis | jamesmcarthur: You were going to start one, first to just us, then the whole list, right? | 14:53 |
| jamesmcarthur | should I just send my email to the Ops Mailing list and get the discussion started? | 14:53 |
| mrhillsman | april 4th is the deadline for foundation | 14:53 |
| mihalis68 | I can't speak for verizon and walmart, except to say they are very much looking to send operators to a get-together. Could absolutely be appropriate for a redefined event, but not for the traditional PTG as currently defined | 14:53 |
| mihalis68 | jamesmcarthur I think the ops mailing list would be the right place to start yes | 14:54 |
| jamesmcarthur | alrighty... I'll send and duck ;) | 14:54 |
| smcginnis | :) | 14:54 |
| * VW braces for impact | 14:54 | |
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| mihalis68 | this team tries to "facilitate" ops meetups, is not "Ops Board of Directors" or any governance type thing! | 14:54 |
| smcginnis | And if anyone here is strongly against it - please don't feel like you should stay quiet just because there are some for it. | 14:55 |
| mihalis68 | mailing list and voting is the true discussion and decision mechanism | 14:55 |
| mrhillsman | ^ | 14:55 |
| mihalis68 | #topic any other business | 14:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "any other business (Meeting topic: Ops Meetup Team)" | 14:55 | |
| mihalis68 | think we covered a lot today | 14:56 |
| smcginnis | Great discussion. | 14:56 |
| mihalis68 | 10 am EST seems to be vastly more successful time slot than the previous one | 14:56 |
| mrhillsman | ++ | 14:56 |
| mihalis68 | apologies to those for whom it moves around due to us lunatics doing DST | 14:56 |
| mrhillsman | :) | 14:57 |
| shintaro | and now its 1 hour earlier for me, too | 14:57 |
| mrhillsman | your summaries help | 14:57 |
| mihalis68 | that's... good? | 14:57 |
| shintaro | which is good | 14:57 |
| mihalis68 | ah, good! :) | 14:57 |
| mihalis68 | my favorite memory of tokyo is still how long it took for those at the table to work out payment arrangements at "Prime Meat" that was hilarious | 14:58 |
| VW | math is hard | 14:58 |
| smcginnis | Especially after a couple beers. :) | 14:58 |
| shintaro | we were too drunk to do the calculation :)_ | 14:58 |
| mihalis68 | especially after ... "socialising" | 14:58 |
| VW | nice | 14:59 |
| mihalis68 | i will say if the event is redefined and welcomes operators, I'd be in favor of convergence and try to drag my companies sponsorship to it | 14:59 |
| mihalis68 | last call for comments! | 14:59 |
| mihalis68 | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discussion of topics related to operating Openstack infrastructures at scale | Mailing list: http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators | Logs: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Mar 20 15:00:02 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ops_meetup_team/2018/ops_meetup_team.2018-03-20-14.00.html | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ops_meetup_team/2018/ops_meetup_team.2018-03-20-14.00.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ops_meetup_team/2018/ops_meetup_team.2018-03-20-14.00.log.html | 15:00 |
| mihalis68 | thanks everyone! | 15:00 |
| shintaro | thank you mihalis68 | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | I would like to hear Bloomberg, Verizon, etc input on the idea since they are willing to sponsor a separate event. | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | Thanks all. | 15:00 |
| jamesmcarthur | thanks everyone for the discussion! | 15:00 |
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| mihalis68 | I'll talk to them and report back (and even give myself an action to do so!) | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | mihalis68: Excellent, thanks! | 15:00 |
| VW | cool - and I'll be more on time next week to try and elaborate some of my thoughts :D | 15:01 |
| VW | in the meantime, I'm sure I'll be chiming in on the thread that comes out of jamesmcarthur's email | 15:01 |
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