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| mihalis68 | Ops Meetups Team, 25 minutes time | 13:35 |
|---|---|---|
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| openstackgerrit | Andrey Kurilin proposed openstack/osops-tools-generic master: Add script for monitoring resource utilization of VMs https://review.openstack.org/518973 | 13:58 |
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| mihalis68 | #startmeeting Ops Meetup Team | 14:00 |
| mihalis68 | hello everyone | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 14 14:00:18 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mihalis68. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Ops Meetup Team)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ops_meetup_team' | 14:00 |
| med_ | \o | 14:00 |
| mihalis68 | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ops-meetups-team agenda | 14:00 |
| mihalis68 | if you are here for the meeting, please add your name to Attendees there on the etherpad | 14:00 |
| shintaro | hi | 14:01 |
| mihalis68 | hi! | 14:01 |
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| mihalis68 | #topic review of actions | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "review of actions (Meeting topic: Ops Meetup Team)" | 14:02 | |
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| mihalis68 | I had some actions about setting up ether pads for the recent summit, but I got busy. I believe Erik took care of those. | 14:02 |
| mihalis68 | Hi EMC | 14:02 |
| emccormick | o/ | 14:02 |
| mihalis68 | also actions about getting the word out about various sessions. COMPLETE | 14:03 |
| mihalis68 | and another action regarding the openstack operators guide conversion to wiki - that is finally done! | 14:03 |
| mihalis68 | Link on the agenda | 14:03 |
| emccormick | yeah I think we can scratch off all summit things ;) | 14:03 |
| emccormick | woohoo! | 14:03 |
| mihalis68 | yeah. done or not done they are past | 14:03 |
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| mihalis68 | the conversion was done by a canonical contractor I have David Desrosiers. I am very pleased with it | 14:04 |
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| med_ | Met him in Sydney | 14:04 |
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| mihalis68 | anyone else have updates on past actions? | 14:04 |
| shintaro | great work! | 14:04 |
| med_ | SuSE has been notified of Sydney Ops Meetup | 14:04 |
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| mihalis68 | #topic review Sydney summit | 14:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "review Sydney summit (Meeting topic: Ops Meetup Team)" | 14:05 | |
| med_ | ah, I didn't meet David D in Sydney. Different guy. | 14:05 |
| mihalis68 | maybe Marcus? | 14:05 |
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| mihalis68 | Marcus Furlong from my team attended, as well as Kundai Midzi | 14:05 |
| med_ | <shrug> someone. | 14:05 |
| mihalis68 | ok I can't usefully lead a review of this event, someone help please | 14:06 |
| mihalis68 | first subtopic was Tom's farewell | 14:06 |
| med_ | I put that on the list | 14:06 |
| shintaro | great karaoke party | 14:06 |
| med_ | good turnout for Tom's farewell. I didn't stay until the bitter end. Not sure there was any announcement of his next adventure. | 14:06 |
| mihalis68 | unless you tell me different, I am seeing a tolkienesque farewell | 14:06 |
| mihalis68 | Tom getting on the boat | 14:06 |
| med_ | 50+ folks at the party | 14:06 |
| mihalis68 | good! | 14:07 |
| emccormick | He doesn't know his next adventure | 14:07 |
| med_ | and foundation picked up the tab. | 14:07 |
| emccormick | He's going on holiday until further notice | 14:07 |
| mihalis68 | I asked my guys to make sure he got a good sendoff | 14:07 |
| med_ | emccormick, can sing | 14:07 |
| mihalis68 | like make sure he didn't want for a beer or three | 14:07 |
| mihalis68 | Sounds like job well done | 14:07 |
| emccormick | "Managing opensource communities isn't a career" so says he | 14:07 |
| emccormick | :D | 14:07 |
| mihalis68 | we'll miss him | 14:07 |
| emccormick | *duck* | 14:07 |
| shintaro | we sure will | 14:08 |
| emccormick | All things are possible with alcohol | 14:08 |
| mihalis68 | next sub-topic was OpenStack LTS releases | 14:08 |
| emccormick | This needed to be a double session | 14:08 |
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| emccormick | but there was movement and it got hallway track action all day afterwards | 14:09 |
| shintaro | That session was the most active and packed forum session | 14:09 |
| shintaro | great moderation by emccormick | 14:09 |
| emccormick | And nobody got stabbed | 14:09 |
| emccormick | Thanks :). It kind of ran itself | 14:09 |
| mihalis68 | judging from afar, it seems the agreement is not quite what I hoped for | 14:09 |
| mihalis68 | I see talk of making it possible for other people to "do LTS work" | 14:09 |
| emccormick | well it is getting a little twisted on the list | 14:09 |
| mihalis68 | admittedly the debate on the list has been very back and forth | 14:10 |
| med_ | it is basically that TC punts to UC for LTS work and distros and ops have to pick it up (my summary) | 14:10 |
| emccormick | I've recovered enough now, I'm going to jump in and try to straighten things out a little | 14:10 |
| med_ | and every other release proposed as LTS | 14:10 |
| mihalis68 | #action emccormick to join the openstack Lts debate on the mailing list | 14:10 |
| mihalis68 | ah, every other is new to me | 14:10 |
| mihalis68 | thanks | 14:10 |
| emccormick | There are a few barriers to be overcome to make the every other one happen. | 14:11 |
| med_ | that was the proposal I think seeded by Thierry | 14:11 |
| emccormick | This is rather a multistep process | 14:11 |
| mihalis68 | one thing I did see was people questioning the rigid 2/year stable branch policy | 14:11 |
| emccormick | Initially we are going to cease deleting old stable branches | 14:11 |
| mihalis68 | that's good | 14:11 |
| mihalis68 | I still feel the 2/year needs to be re-examined | 14:11 |
| emccormick | then we are going to form a new team of reviewers | 14:11 |
| mihalis68 | the dev teams act like that's written in stone and requests for LTS are therefore requests for yet more work | 14:12 |
| emccormick | this team / repo will maintain releases beyond stable branch policy | 14:12 |
| emccormick | yes, this is a thing that needed overcoming | 14:12 |
| emccormick | and this is how it can happen | 14:12 |
| mihalis68 | I guess there's no point in getting in too deep here, since it's a broad community issue and the debate is ongoing | 14:12 |
| emccormick | numerous operators as well as distros are already maintaining releases beyond EOL | 14:12 |
| mihalis68 | I am pleased the debate got kicked off in earnest | 14:13 |
| emccormick | they patch them and run their own CI on them | 14:13 |
| emccormick | those CI's, in theory, can become voting members of the new repo. | 14:13 |
| mihalis68 | that's neat | 14:13 |
| emccormick | That relieves stable branch guys from having to deal with OS changes breaking infra CI | 14:14 |
| emccormick | in order to get to a real LTS though, we need the other thing to come to life | 14:14 |
| shintaro | I hear distros has dedicated LTS maintainer team different from dev team so the model will be similar I guess | 14:14 |
| emccormick | That thing being fast-forward upgrades | 14:14 |
| mihalis68 | is that the same thing as +2 upgrades? | 14:14 |
| mihalis68 | i.e. upgrade from older releases to current? | 14:14 |
| emccormick | well it's exactly +2, at least to begin | 14:15 |
| shintaro | not skip-level but fast-forward one by one | 14:15 |
| mihalis68 | "fast-forward" doesn't quite explain anything to me, sorry! | 14:15 |
| emccormick | also from PTG notes I take it it will still require offline | 14:15 |
| emccormick | at least at first | 14:15 |
| emccormick | right, so simplification of what we do now. | 14:15 |
| emccormick | The end game is still direct N -> N+2 without stopping over | 14:16 |
| med_ | fast-forward upgrades, as discussed at PTG and now SYD are one-by-one release upgrades with db upgrades. | 14:16 |
| emccormick | and to have to maintain only N and N+2 while scrapping N+1 | 14:16 |
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| med_ | At SYD there was also discussion in LTS at having LTS to LTS upgrades (and that would be owned by whoever owns the LTS) | 14:17 |
| emccormick | right. That's what they felt they could deal with right now | 14:17 |
| med_ | so kind of a skiplevel upgrade | 14:17 |
| emccormick | deployment tools are in on that work | 14:17 |
| med_ | A (skip B) to C (skip D) to E | 14:17 |
| emccormick | OSA already has it apparently, and Kolla is looking at it. | 14:17 |
| emccormick | So anyway, the conversation and work will go on for numerous cycles. | 14:18 |
| emccormick | But for now we can look forward to not deleting old versions, and some amount of patching and backporting going on. | 14:18 |
| mihalis68 | sure. but this is a start of something very important in my view (and of my employer) | 14:18 |
| emccormick | which is better than what we have today | 14:18 |
| mihalis68 | so thank you emccormick! | 14:18 |
| emccormick | One other barrier was that distros are night aligned on what they support | 14:19 |
| mihalis68 | any more on this topic? we are ~20 minutes in | 14:19 |
| emccormick | look at the bottom of the etherpad and you'll see Suse is off one from Redhat and Canonical | 14:19 |
| emccormick | no idea where Debian is at | 14:19 |
| emccormick | also at the bottom of the etherpad is a large list of companies that wish to contribute | 14:19 |
| med_ | One other Sydney point, request/suggestions for better planning ahead of Vancouver. | 14:19 |
| emccormick | I think that's the biggest deal in the whole thing | 14:19 |
| mrhillsman | o/ | 14:20 |
| mrhillsman | apologies so late | 14:20 |
| mrhillsman | totally forgot about the time change | 14:20 |
| emccormick | heya mrhillsman! | 14:20 |
| shintaro | hi mrhillsman | 14:20 |
| mihalis68 | hi! | 14:21 |
| med_ | Pro-Tip: Google cal allows you to set UTC as the timezone so that it detaches from DST. | 14:22 |
| mihalis68 | med_ please elaborate on the planing request? | 14:22 |
| mihalis68 | is that something the operators community needs to raise the bar on ? | 14:22 |
| med_ | mihalis68, I think this was in the smaller session where it was mostly Foundation and the meetup ops team | 14:22 |
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| med_ | I think so, yes, the Ops team needs to get more (if necessary) Forum sessions planned and on the cal. | 14:22 |
| med_ | in adv of Vancuver | 14:23 |
| mihalis68 | ok | 14:23 |
| med_ | unless they don't need more meetings.... | 14:23 |
| med_ | that's what I picked up. Maybe I misunderstood though. | 14:23 |
| mihalis68 | I am planning to make it to Vancouver | 14:23 |
| med_ | ack, likewise. | 14:23 |
| mihalis68 | great. let's make it best yet! | 14:23 |
| mihalis68 | I will endeavor to make it for day 1 this time! | 14:24 |
| mihalis68 | (painful travel SNAFU details elided) | 14:24 |
| mihalis68 | #topic Tokyo | 14:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tokyo (Meeting topic: Ops Meetup Team)" | 14:24 | |
| mihalis68 | Thanks for the updates via the ether pad, shintaro | 14:24 |
| mihalis68 | sponsorship is requested for breakfast and schwag, and that's it? | 14:24 |
| shintaro | right | 14:25 |
| shintaro | other thing we will take care | 14:25 |
| mihalis68 | will you be able to provide details on who would be paid for those? | 14:25 |
| mrhillsman | do you have cost for breakfast and schwag? | 14:25 |
| mihalis68 | that's a very generous hosting offer from NTT, by the way! | 14:25 |
| mrhillsman | as well | 14:25 |
| shintaro | our contractor will deal with the money | 14:26 |
| mihalis68 | yes, payment details and amounts | 14:26 |
| mihalis68 | speaking entirely personally, I love special logo t-shirts from events, with dates | 14:26 |
| emccormick | Me too | 14:26 |
| mihalis68 | sadly the ones I got from mexico were in child sizes I think | 14:26 |
| shintaro | waiting for breakfast cost. | 14:26 |
| mrhillsman | lol | 14:26 |
| emccormick | was a little bummed about the beach towel. Will have to wear it as a cape per med_ | 14:27 |
| mihalis68 | If you can share the cost as soon as you have it, I can see if Bloomberg will sponsor one of those | 14:27 |
| mrhillsman | well, i hate to say it, but more than likely apac shirts will be undersized | 14:27 |
| med_ | it makes a fine cape. Not too bad as a beach towel either--lots of folks #afterstacked beach towel on actual beaches. | 14:27 |
| emccormick | like EU shirts are HUGE | 14:27 |
| mihalis68 | seems like an habitual problem with branded clothes | 14:27 |
| mihalis68 | we just got bloomberg engineering hoodies | 14:27 |
| shintaro | for us, US size is oversized :) | 14:27 |
| mrhillsman | hehe | 14:27 |
| emccormick | I was sad not to be able to stick around. Surfing looked great | 14:27 |
| mihalis68 | the 2X size I couldn't comfortable even get the sleeves over my arms | 14:27 |
| med_ | Yep, I don't think I can wear any shirts from EU or APAC. | 14:28 |
| med_ | but hats fit and umbrellas fit. | 14:28 |
| emccormick | I swam in my large Barcelona shirt | 14:28 |
| mihalis68 | I also see that telecom track is moving forward? | 14:28 |
| mrhillsman | i can ask as well shintaro huawei but not sure how that works so sooner the better on cost i'd imagine for sponsorship | 14:28 |
| shintaro | I asked some telcos at the Summit to come to the Meetup | 14:28 |
| mihalis68 | sounds great. I am booked for Tokyo on eventbrite | 14:29 |
| shintaro | I will ask my contractor to provide the cost ASAP mrhillsman | 14:29 |
| mrhillsman | ;) | 14:30 |
| mihalis68 | seems like logistics are moving ahead very well | 14:30 |
| mihalis68 | what about 1st day evening social? | 14:30 |
| shintaro | We got the budget and looking for the place. we couldn't reserve the beer place emccormick suggested | 14:30 |
| mrhillsman | i loved the ping pong spot in NYC | 14:31 |
| mihalis68 | In NYC, the event was at a combined ping-pong hall/var | 14:31 |
| mihalis68 | bar | 14:31 |
| mihalis68 | yeah! | 14:31 |
| mrhillsman | great minds | 14:31 |
| mrhillsman | ;) | 14:31 |
| shintaro | that place was great | 14:31 |
| emccormick | There's a pool hall chain there in Tokyo | 14:31 |
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| mrhillsman | it was great having an activity vs food+beer(drinks) | 14:32 |
| emccormick | I went on my birthday last time | 14:32 |
| mrhillsman | only | 14:32 |
| shintaro | I will check if we can find one | 14:33 |
| mihalis68 | maybe we could get a reservation at some place that has activities as well as refreshments? I love a beer hall, but it's not working out too well anyway, so... | 14:33 |
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| med_ | Pinball/Arcade bars are getting very popular here in Colorado | 14:33 |
| med_ | that's another possibility | 14:33 |
| mihalis68 | is it time to start topic planning for Tokyo? | 14:33 |
| med_ | and the TopGolf thing is as well | 14:33 |
| mihalis68 | and do we need to change how we do it? | 14:33 |
| mrhillsman | +1 to topic planning | 14:34 |
| shintaro | +1 | 14:34 |
| emccormick | I can't read this, but check if there's a location near where we will be shintaro | 14:34 |
| emccormick | https://r.gnavi.co.jp/g486509/ | 14:34 |
| mihalis68 | last comment on social: I do like mini golf! | 14:34 |
| mihalis68 | for topic planning, I would think we should embrace dual-track immediately | 14:35 |
| mihalis68 | so that's telecom and everything else | 14:35 |
| mrhillsman | maybe keep how we do it but modify a little how we structure the topics? | 14:35 |
| mrhillsman | +1 mihalis68 | 14:35 |
| mrhillsman | so it is not such an abrupt change? idk | 14:35 |
| mihalis68 | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/TYO-ops-meetup-2018 | 14:36 |
| mihalis68 | I see this already has telecom track | 14:37 |
| shintaro | emccormick the place can hold only up to 40 people | 14:37 |
| emccormick | Shall we blast that to the list to get people started putting topics in? | 14:37 |
| mrhillsman | not sure if this was mentioned earlier re future ops meetups topic | 14:37 |
| emccormick | :O | 14:37 |
| emccormick | I went to the one kinda near Shinjuku and it was huge | 14:37 |
| mrhillsman | but foundation was keen on, which we agreed, meetup feeding back into larger event cycle/system | 14:37 |
| emccormick | guess the others are not so big | 14:37 |
| mihalis68 | I think in principle the feedback is expected to happen via etherpads | 14:38 |
| mihalis68 | in practice they are very scattered and disconnected in my view | 14:38 |
| shintaro | emccormick I was wrong it can hold up to 180 people at maximum | 14:39 |
| mihalis68 | +1 from me for opportunity to demonstrate terrible pool skills | 14:39 |
| emccormick | shintaro On a Tuesday it was empty. Maybe we can just rent the whole place ;) | 14:39 |
| * med_ is losing the thread of convo w/r/t Vancouver planning | 14:39 | |
| mihalis68 | fair point | 14:40 |
| * med_ suspects renting a place like that is expensive | 14:40 | |
| med_ | ah, maybe we are still on Tokyo. My bad. | 14:40 |
| mihalis68 | yeah | 14:40 |
| mihalis68 | the last comment on Vancouver was a request to do better planning and get more forum sessions together | 14:40 |
| mihalis68 | I think everyone agrees | 14:40 |
| mihalis68 | meanwhile next event is now Tokyo | 14:41 |
| emccormick | Yeah. We need to solicit sessions before the foundation calls for it | 14:41 |
| emccormick | Our etherpad was sad | 14:41 |
| med_ | Exceedingly unlikely I will attend Tokyo so I"m going to drop now for my next meeting. Good fortunes. I | 14:41 |
| emccormick | Also we need to split up the submissions so I don't end up with 4 again ;) | 14:41 |
| med_ | I'll read scrollback later. | 14:41 |
| mihalis68 | if I might be permitted, I'd say: | 14:41 |
| mihalis68 | logistics: good | 14:41 |
| mihalis68 | telecom track: agreed | 14:41 |
| mihalis68 | other track: unknown | 14:41 |
| mihalis68 | bye med_ | 14:41 |
| emccormick | have a good day med_ | 14:42 |
| mihalis68 | should we try to find volunteer owners for each track instead of for the whole event? | 14:42 |
| mihalis68 | for topic curation, moderator acquisition etc? | 14:42 |
| shintaro | we will have one large room and two small rooms so we can have 3 sessions maximum | 14:42 |
| emccormick | I think someone dedicated to curating NFV session would be good | 14:43 |
| emccormick | I know squat about that stuff | 14:43 |
| mihalis68 | shintaro do you have event planning support within NTT? | 14:43 |
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| mihalis68 | or is it on you? | 14:43 |
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| shintaro | what do you mean? | 14:43 |
| mihalis68 | will you be able to find time to lead planning on telecom track, perhaps? | 14:44 |
| mihalis68 | if you are busy with event logistics that might be too much to ask | 14:44 |
| shintaro | I can. I have contact to several telcos | 14:44 |
| shintaro | I can hand over logistics to my contractor | 14:44 |
| mihalis68 | Ok #agreed shintaro to own telecom track topics | 14:44 |
| mihalis68 | is there a volunteer to do the other track? | 14:45 |
| mihalis68 | I do want there to be non-telecom sessions | 14:45 |
| mihalis68 | for example Bloomberg is not a telecom company :) | 14:45 |
| shintaro | I've asked several large operators to attend, too. Line and Yahoo!Japan | 14:45 |
| emccormick | I'll handle the others | 14:45 |
| mihalis68 | #agreed emccormick to handle non-telecom-track session topic planning | 14:46 |
| mihalis68 | very good. I'll help | 14:46 |
| mihalis68 | thanks! | 14:46 |
| mihalis68 | any more about tokyo today? | 14:46 |
| emccormick | Should we go ahead and start soliciting? | 14:46 |
| mihalis68 | yes I think so! | 14:47 |
| emccormick | I can send out a general email for both tracks | 14:47 |
| emccormick | maybe we'll just put a separate section in the etherpad for telco sessions | 14:47 |
| mihalis68 | I think med_ did have a point, I took the topic forward to tokyo without mentioning future meetups policy | 14:47 |
| emccormick | that way they're separate to start | 14:47 |
| mihalis68 | +1 for separate sections | 14:47 |
| mihalis68 | much easier | 14:47 |
| mihalis68 | people will know if they are telecom track, I feel | 14:47 |
| emccormick | k | 14:47 |
| mrhillsman | sorry had to step away for a moment | 14:48 |
| mihalis68 | so backtracking, to honor the agenda, was progress made on whether to co-locate future ops meetups with PTG? | 14:48 |
| mrhillsman | no progress | 14:48 |
| mrhillsman | up for discussion | 14:48 |
| shintaro | not really. | 14:48 |
| mrhillsman | needs to make sense | 14:49 |
| emccormick | I think we decided to table it until we see if we get proposals for fall | 14:49 |
| emccormick | the issue is that PTG runs 5 days | 14:49 |
| mihalis68 | I don't really like the idea | 14:49 |
| mihalis68 | neither does VW IIRC | 14:49 |
| emccormick | they've talked about shortening it, and if they do so, perhaps we can squeeze in easier | 14:49 |
| mihalis68 | anyone else have personal stance they wish to share? | 14:49 |
| emccormick | but for now I think we are keeping it split | 14:50 |
| mrhillsman | from going to the ptg, it could work imho | 14:50 |
| mihalis68 | yeah, there's going to be nothing left of the PTG people's energy after 5 days | 14:50 |
| mrhillsman | first 3 days of the ptg, open discussions more or less, last 2, head down working | 14:50 |
| mihalis68 | as I see it, if operators meet up was part of PTG that would be one thing | 14:50 |
| mihalis68 | but just setting up our tent nearby and hoping to talk to the developers after PTG? Seems useless and humiliating | 14:51 |
| mrhillsman | i do not think it was really about getting ptg folks to attend ops midcycle as much as it was reducing travel costs | 14:51 |
| mrhillsman | and logistics, etc | 14:51 |
| mihalis68 | "hey, can we talk about skip-level db upgrades?" "sorry man, I'm tired and hungover so I booked an earlier flight" | 14:51 |
| mrhillsman | at least from my perspective of the conversation | 14:51 |
| mrhillsman | it has always been about cost reduction, travel fatigue, sponsor fatigue, etc | 14:52 |
| emccormick | The sponsor fatigue is the big plus for colocation for me. | 14:53 |
| mrhillsman | and where those who overlap can/would, they have a chance to | 14:53 |
| mihalis68 | I understand that would be great if it worked, but I just don't see it working | 14:53 |
| emccormick | not too many people are inclined to spill over to both events. | 14:53 |
| emccormick | but perhaps I'm underestimating them | 14:53 |
| mrhillsman | they should not overlap i think is the key | 14:53 |
| mihalis68 | clearly an issue that must continue to be debated widely | 14:54 |
| mihalis68 | 6 minutes left | 14:54 |
| zioproto | hello all | 14:54 |
| mihalis68 | hi there | 14:54 |
| mrhillsman | hey zioproto | 14:54 |
| zioproto | I think the bad idea was to make two events, one for developers and one for operators | 14:54 |
| emccormick | hiya zioproto! | 14:54 |
| zioproto | we have a community split that you can see also on the mailing lists. | 14:54 |
| shintaro | Foundation said they can't afford two-week event | 14:54 |
| zioproto | devs dont read operators ML | 14:54 |
| mihalis68 | well PTG has already been launched and is very strictly defined | 14:54 |
| mrhillsman | ^ not entirely true | 14:54 |
| mihalis68 | I am an operator and there's no real valid reason for me to be at PTG, I've read their "who should attend" very carefully | 14:55 |
| emccormick | well, it could be done as extra space within the same week I think | 14:55 |
| mrhillsman | there are quite a few folks who read both lists, let's not make a blanket statement | 14:55 |
| emccormick | eg. just an extra couple of rooms | 14:55 |
| zioproto | not entirely true, but I read both lists, and I see some people only on 1 side and some other people only on the other side | 14:55 |
| mrhillsman | mihalis68 it is not to make you attend the ptg | 14:55 |
| mrhillsman | agreed zioproto | 14:56 |
| mihalis68 | I know, what I'm saying is zioproto said the mistake was to split them | 14:56 |
| emccormick | we are talking colocation, not combination | 14:56 |
| mrhillsman | ^ | 14:56 |
| emccormick | I think we need to clarify that | 14:56 |
| mihalis68 | well PTG makes that definitive | 14:56 |
| med_ | reading scrollback VW was definitely against colo with pTG | 14:56 |
| emccormick | it's 2 events under one roof | 14:56 |
| zioproto | anything that goes in the direction of making devs and ops communities closer to each other is a good step for me. | 14:56 |
| med_ | and his point is we need to stand up on our own two feet | 14:56 |
| emccormick | PTG is still as it was and Ops meetup is just there in other rooms and devs can pop in if they want. | 14:57 |
| mihalis68 | I am in favor of pulling things closer together again. However, PTG is very starkly defined. I am not attending that as a hanger-on | 14:57 |
| mrhillsman | will definitely have to discuss further | 14:57 |
| mrhillsman | not sure why we have to keep calling out attending the ptg | 14:57 |
| emccormick | we need to dedicate a lot next week to this | 14:57 |
| mrhillsman | no one is suggesting ops folks "have" to or should | 14:58 |
| emccormick | we need to figure out which way we are going for next fall | 14:58 |
| zioproto | I have been to a couple of ops mid-cycles, but never at the PTG. I will try to attend the next PTG and only then I can give my idea how to get the two events somehow closer to each other. | 14:58 |
| emccormick | if we stay on our own we need to start soliciting proposals | 14:58 |
| mihalis68 | here is why: they have an event, they are in charge of it, it is located and timed for their convenience | 14:58 |
| med_ | not really | 14:58 |
| med_ | it's all done by the FOundation | 14:58 |
| mrhillsman | ^ is it not also convenient for the ops midcycle is the question? | 14:58 |
| med_ | not by the devs | 14:58 |
| mihalis68 | I understand "co-location" not "attendance" but still | 14:58 |
| emccormick | Their timing and ours are basically the same | 14:59 |
| med_ | I'd say they are in charge of content, yes. | 14:59 |
| emccormick | mid way between summits | 14:59 |
| mihalis68 | we're out of time | 14:59 |
| * med_ goes to next meeting. TTFN. | 14:59 | |
| mrhillsman | :) | 14:59 |
| emccormick | what is so dev specific about the venue? We would still do our own content | 14:59 |
| med_ | thanks mihalis68 | 14:59 |
| mihalis68 | please check out the operators guide conversion (on the agenda linked above) | 14:59 |
| emccormick | again it's not to become part of the PTG | 14:59 |
| mrhillsman | guide looks great mihalis68 | 14:59 |
| mrhillsman | awesome work | 14:59 |
| zioproto | thanks ! | 15:00 |
| emccormick | it's to quit having to deal with venue problems and focus on content | 15:00 |
| mihalis68 | thanks for feedback. Everyone else please do check it out | 15:00 |
| mihalis68 | ok done | 15:00 |
| mihalis68 | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discussion of topics related to operating Openstack infrastructures at scale |Â Mailing list: http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators |Â Logs: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 14 15:00:26 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ops_meetup_team/2017/ops_meetup_team.2017-11-14-14.00.html | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ops_meetup_team/2017/ops_meetup_team.2017-11-14-14.00.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ops_meetup_team/2017/ops_meetup_team.2017-11-14-14.00.log.html | 15:00 |
| mihalis68 | anyone want to carry on that last item of debate? | 15:00 |
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| emccormick | I've got a few minutes | 15:00 |
| mrhillsman | we should have a advantages/disadvantages doc | 15:00 |
| emccormick | pro-con the hell out of it. | 15:01 |
| mihalis68 | PTG is planned with the dev teams in mind | 15:01 |
| mihalis68 | and as you say it's "owned" by the foundation | 15:01 |
| emccormick | NO | 15:01 |
| emccormick | the topics are | 15:01 |
| emccormick | which we would not participate in | 15:01 |
| mrhillsman | https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BgICOa-Mct9pKwjUEuYp_BSD1V_GdRLL_IM-BU0iPUw/edit?usp=sharing | 15:01 |
| emccormick | again, what is dev specific? | 15:01 |
| mrhillsman | ^ | 15:01 |
| mihalis68 | it's an event for them. That's really right there on the pages | 15:01 |
| mrhillsman | disregard the ptg chris | 15:02 |
| mihalis68 | project team gathering. project team=developers | 15:02 |
| mrhillsman | no one is asking ops to attend the ptg | 15:02 |
| mrhillsman | not sure why you want to keep focusing on that bud | 15:02 |
| mihalis68 | Let me repeat. When talking about PTG, PTG is for PT, right? | 15:02 |
| shintaro | getting rid of the venue problem seems attractive but if we need devs in OpsMeetup, co-locating is not a good idea | 15:02 |
| mrhillsman | we are not talking about the ptg | 15:03 |
| mrhillsman | we are talking about a location | 15:03 |
| zioproto | if we make the two events in the same city/location, on after the other, it would be easier for international travelling | 15:03 |
| mrhillsman | ^ | 15:03 |
| emccormick | OK try this | 15:03 |
| mrhillsman | those kinds of things we are really discussing | 15:03 |
| emccormick | Are the Summit and the Forum the same thing? | 15:04 |
| mrhillsman | not the content of an event | 15:04 |
| mihalis68 | PTG is 5 days, right? | 15:04 |
| emccormick | Does attending the Summit require you go to the forum? | 15:04 |
| zioproto | I have no idea how long is the PTG | 15:04 |
| emccormick | Did attending it before require going to the Design Summit? | 15:04 |
| mrhillsman | ptg is indeed 5 days | 15:04 |
| mihalis68 | someone said it's 5 days | 15:04 |
| emccormick | They maintain their own schedules, have their own proposal systems, and cater to specific groups of people. Those groups could cross if they wanted to but didn't have to | 15:04 |
| mrhillsman | but why does that matter? | 15:05 |
| mrhillsman | ops midcycle is two | 15:05 |
| mihalis68 | are you expecting devs to do 5+2? | 15:05 |
| zioproto | so I see at list 3 goals | 15:05 |
| mrhillsman | nope | 15:05 |
| mrhillsman | forget about the ptg buddy | 15:05 |
| zioproto | goal 1) make travelling easier for people that want to attend both events and come from far away | 15:05 |
| emccormick | it doesn't even have to split over 2 weeks | 15:05 |
| shintaro | mihalis68 is pointing out that devs can't attend OpsMeetup if they are so busy in PTG | 15:05 |
| emccormick | but they can drop into a session of interest | 15:06 |
| zioproto | goal 2) try to make devs and ops communties closer to each other | 15:06 |
| zioproto | goal 3) let the foundation handle the burden of the venue finding and organization | 15:06 |
| zioproto | did I catch right the three goals ? | 15:06 |
| mrhillsman | ;) | 15:06 |
| emccormick | I think that's fair, yeah. | 15:07 |
| zioproto | mihalis68: you look afraid that goal number 2 will make smaller the importance of the Ops | 15:07 |
| zioproto | mihalis68: because we get incorporated in a Devs event | 15:07 |
| mihalis68 | I don't find "close" that useful. When the summit was "conference" "design summit" and "ops meet up" all at the same time I felt it was completely insane. How can we usefully even plan through all of that | 15:07 |
| emccormick | well that's because you tried to attend 2 things | 15:08 |
| zioproto | mihalis68: but if it was 3 days PTG and 2 days Ops meetup in the same week and in the same location, would it make sense? | 15:08 |
| emccormick | you don't | 15:08 |
| emccormick | you focus on 1 | 15:08 |
| mihalis68 | right now the devs have a 5 day event full already | 15:08 |
| emccormick | I can't see PTG going to 3 days | 15:08 |
| mihalis68 | where does their availability for anything else come from? | 15:08 |
| zioproto | mihalis68: right now, but in the future that can change | 15:08 |
| emccormick | but say it's 4 and 2 with one overlap day | 15:08 |
| mrhillsman | q: how many devs were attending the ops midcycle? | 15:08 |
| emccormick | last time, 2 | 15:08 |
| mrhillsman | exactly | 15:09 |
| emccormick | Sean and MIke | 15:09 |
| mrhillsman | maybe a few more than that, but, barely any devs | 15:09 |
| mrhillsman | and how many ops folks for ptg, probably about the same, i know i was there, mainly for the first 3 days of open discussions | 15:09 |
| mrhillsman | which again, leave it up to whoever to decide what they attend, that is not the reason/goal imho | 15:10 |
| mrhillsman | whatever a person has interest or energy to attend or not attend is their perogative | 15:10 |
| mihalis68 | if PTG definition were changed, all kinds of things could be possible | 15:10 |
| mrhillsman | and should not be the basis upon which we make wise decisions | 15:11 |
| emccormick | but our event is not PTG | 15:11 |
| emccormick | stop looking at it as attending the PTG | 15:11 |
| mrhillsman | ^ | 15:11 |
| mihalis68 | you've said that many times guys | 15:11 |
| mihalis68 | I can read | 15:11 |
| mihalis68 | honestly | 15:11 |
| emccormick | that's the blocking factor in your head I think | 15:11 |
| emccormick | I just go tthrough this also | 15:11 |
| mihalis68 | that's the event that exists | 15:11 |
| emccormick | So what does the charter have to do with us? | 15:11 |
| mihalis68 | you're talking about leveraging it in some way | 15:11 |
| mrhillsman | can i ask you why it is so important to point out the ptg? | 15:11 |
| emccormick | but it's 2 events in one place | 15:11 |
| emccormick | no | 15:11 |
| emccormick | I"m talking about leveraging the facility | 15:11 |
| mrhillsman | we are not talking about leveraging the ptg | 15:11 |
| mrhillsman | the location bud, travel costs, etc | 15:12 |
| emccormick | combining resources on the foundation side | 15:12 |
| mihalis68 | do you expect some devs to join operators sessions? | 15:12 |
| mrhillsman | nope | 15:12 |
| emccormick | 2 events, 1 roof, separate rooms. | 15:12 |
| mrhillsman | could care less if they do or not | 15:12 |
| mihalis68 | well that has been said by others for sure | 15:12 |
| mrhillsman | not from a bad way | 15:12 |
| mrhillsman | i expect folks to do what they want | 15:12 |
| mrhillsman | and make the case for attending one event or another to their boss(es) | 15:13 |
| mihalis68 | people talked about 3 then 3 or 4 plus 2 | 15:13 |
| * zioproto leaving to get other stuff done | 15:13 | |
| mrhillsman | i expect us as leaders to make it easy | 15:13 |
| emccormick | My only concern, not having attended a PTG, is that our very presence would create a distraction. I just want the blessing of the TC before we would do it. | 15:13 |
| mihalis68 | it seems the proposal has changed. Maybe someone in favor would like to write down what the proposal is now and share | 15:14 |
| shintaro | I don't think it would emccormick, devs are focusing on their work | 15:14 |
| emccormick | mihalis68 There was talk that PTG might go down to 4 days next time around. We could, for example, have Monday and Tuesday Ops meetup and Tuesday - Friday PTG. | 15:14 |
| mrhillsman | the issue there emccormick - just imo - is that we should not have to worry about attending the ptg if information is fed into it as it is designed to be | 15:14 |
| mihalis68 | originally people talked about co-location after the PTG and hoping that some devs could stay around | 15:14 |
| emccormick | one day of Ops would overlap with discussion day at PTG | 15:14 |
| emccormick | If a dev wished to join us for a session on, say, LTS, they could do that | 15:15 |
| emccormick | or not | 15:15 |
| emccormick | mihalis68 I think the separate days entirely might be impractical from a foundation standpoint | 15:16 |
| emccormick | we discussed that idea and it seemed logistically it would be difficult to span weeks | 15:16 |
| mihalis68 | I don't know what the proposal is any more. What I understood to be the proposal has been rather emphatically denied here just now. | 15:16 |
| mrhillsman | ops midcycle could be any days - 1 or both - overlapping with ptg | 15:17 |
| emccormick | We are making the proposal mihalis68 :) | 15:17 |
| mriedem | remember how the design summit used to be first 2 days ops + cross project, and last 3 days were dev stuff, while ops were still around? | 15:18 |
| emccormick | right, that's what I was thinking of | 15:18 |
| mriedem | only difference with that and the ptg is the ptg format replaced the midcycles, which were still vertical dev teams but less time restricted (no planned 40 minute time boxed sessions) | 15:18 |
| emccormick | in this case I would not think of doing a cross-project day | 15:19 |
| mriedem | the first two days at the ptg in denver were basically time boxed cross project, like the old design summit | 15:19 |
| emccormick | Unless devs really wanted to do it for some reason | 15:19 |
| mriedem | cross-project == horizontal teams | 15:19 |
| mriedem | so qa, docs, infra, interop, etc | 15:19 |
| mriedem | SIGs | 15:20 |
| mriedem | and that stuff should have involvement from uses, ops and devs | 15:20 |
| mriedem | imo | 15:20 |
| mriedem | *users | 15:20 |
| mrhillsman | and the last days were head down work | 15:20 |
| mrhillsman | i did not see any of you folks lol | 15:20 |
| mriedem | the last days were vertical dev teams yes | 15:20 |
| mrhillsman | and walked around, it was a ghost town pretty much | 15:20 |
| mriedem | i was in the interop room in denver for the topic i cared about, and then moved to other stuff :) | 15:20 |
| mriedem | fast forward upgrade room was standing only the first day | 15:21 |
| emccormick | So ideally, if we did it, it would be Ops early | 15:21 |
| emccormick | I must admit I wish I'd been there for that session alone | 15:21 |
| mrhillsman | but discussions would not be relevant to the current ptg correct? (vertical days i mean) | 15:22 |
| shintaro | so that sounds like another forum session? | 15:22 |
| emccormick | shintaro, it sounds like the first 2 days of PTG are exactly that | 15:22 |
| emccormick | and ours is basically that the whole time. | 15:23 |
| emccormick | Although I must admit I have wished for a 3rd day for Ops groups to do some stuff. Like an Ops guide sprint for example | 15:23 |
| emccormick | but that's another discussion | 15:24 |
| mrhillsman | at this point, can we use the doc to write proposals? | 15:24 |
| mrhillsman | and add to next week's agenda? | 15:24 |
| emccormick | Sounds reasonable to me. | 15:25 |
| mihalis68 | I would suggest making a separate document proposing how this would work, then start next weeks agenda and link to it | 15:25 |
| mrhillsman | #link https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BgICOa-Mct9pKwjUEuYp_BSD1V_GdRLL_IM-BU0iPUw | 15:25 |
| mrhillsman | mihalis68 i can update the doc there | 15:25 |
| mrhillsman | just added something quickly to the agenda etherpad | 15:26 |
| mrhillsman | placeholder | 15:26 |
| emccormick | cool. | 15:27 |
| mihalis68 | ok I'll take a look when you have something. | 15:27 |
| mrhillsman | cool, thx | 15:27 |
| mihalis68 | talk to you all later | 15:28 |
| mrhillsman | ttyl | 15:28 |
| emccormick | Thanks mihalis68 | 15:28 |
| shintaro | thanks | 15:28 |
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| emccormick | mrhillsman Can you link in that ML thread you mentioned? | 15:30 |
| emccormick | my google-fu is not turning it up. | 15:30 |
| emccormick | (the UC list thread re: colocation) | 15:30 |
| mrhillsman | sure | 15:30 |
| emccormick | ty | 15:30 |
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| mrhillsman | welcome | 15:43 |
| mrhillsman | zioproto can you access that doc? i see a request in gmail from you | 15:44 |
| zioproto | mrhillsman: I had view only before | 15:45 |
| zioproto | I think you shared a link for view only | 15:45 |
| mrhillsman | sorry, just fixed | 15:45 |
| zioproto | thanks | 15:45 |
| mrhillsman | welcom | 15:45 |
| mrhillsman | welcome | 15:45 |
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| dims | zioproto : mrhillsman : folks interested in LTS ... please add your ideas and vote and volunteer - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/LTS-proposal | 16:34 |
| mrhillsman | thx dims | 16:35 |
| mrhillsman | added name, will vote and volunteer as requested | 16:35 |
| dims | zioproto : NO, discussion is not enough to change policies, you need to submit a change to the policy and existing stable core team has to vote and approve | 16:37 |
| dims | (for stable release policy) | 16:38 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/osops-tools-monitoring master: Fix for check_cinder_volume https://review.openstack.org/517938 | 18:17 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/osops-tools-generic master: Add script for monitoring resource utilization of VMs https://review.openstack.org/518973 | 18:25 |
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| bollig | anyone know if it is possible to hide deactivated images from users in horizon by default? | 19:13 |
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