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| VW | anyone around for the LDT meeting? | 03:00 |
|---|---|---|
| VW | sorrison: you online? | 03:00 |
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| VW | #startmeeting Large Deployments Team | 03:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Sep 16 03:01:45 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is VW. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 03:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 03:01 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'large_deployments_team' | 03:01 |
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| VW | looks like we might be short of folks for the LDT meeting scheduled, but I'll wait and see if some folks wander in | 03:03 |
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| VW | looks like not. we'll try again next month | 03:30 |
| VW | #endmeeting | 03:30 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Sep 16 03:30:23 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 03:30 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/large_deployments_team/2016/large_deployments_team.2016-09-16-03.01.html | 03:30 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/large_deployments_team/2016/large_deployments_team.2016-09-16-03.01.txt | 03:30 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/large_deployments_team/2016/large_deployments_team.2016-09-16-03.01.log.html | 03:30 |
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| sorrison | Hey VM sorry we had a going away lunch for a work mate and couldn't make it | 04:15 |
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| catintheroof | Hi, quick question, suppose i have lots of users into a single OU on ldap, and i need to assign each user to a new domain, i dont need domain specific driver for that right ? i just need multidomains enabled and how to do i do to filter that every user is a new domain ? can i apply some filter on keystone to achieve that ? | 12:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | Craig Sterrett proposed openstack/osops-tools-contrib: Edited Readme added testing information https://review.openstack.org/371705 | 16:40 |
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| pabelanger | afternoon | 17:06 |
| pabelanger | I'm trying to learn more about pre-caching glance images on compute nodes, interested in any documentation around the subject. | 17:07 |
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| pabelanger | With infracloud, we are only using the local HDD to the compute node to store the images from glance. | 17:08 |
| pabelanger | Obviously when we upload a new image to glance, we are setting problems launching new compute nodes for the first time because the need to fetch the new image | 17:08 |
| pabelanger | I'm curious how other operators deal with this issue. | 17:09 |
| pabelanger | These are qcow2 images too | 17:09 |
| jlk | Rackspace used something they build, scheduled images I think. | 17:10 |
| jlk | a system to prime the system behind the scenes | 17:10 |
| jlk | there were efforts to push that upstream, but I'm not sure where it stalled out | 17:10 |
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| jlk | at IBM private cloud we don't bother with it, image fetch time is pretty fast, and instance launch time hasn't been a customer complaint | 17:11 |
| pabelanger | Right, that is what I am finding in the googles. People have either implemented something locally or it is not an issue before of their setup | 17:14 |
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| mgagne | yea, looking for the same here. I think pabelanger is asking on my behalf ;) | 17:40 |
| mgagne | I will be looking into implementing a swift image download for https://github.com/openstack/nova/tree/master/nova/image/download | 17:41 |
| mgagne | and see where it goes | 17:41 |
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| notmyname | mgagne: I'm not sure of the context of that, but if you need guidance on swift, let me know | 17:53 |
| mgagne | notmyname: 1) upload a new image to Glance (with Swift backend) 2) Boot 50 instances spread on 50 computes. 3) Observe chaos where Nova and Glance struggle to download and cache the new image. | 17:54 |
| mgagne | notmyname: hmm so you are the one that wanted to be my friend at the ops meetup? =) | 17:55 |
| notmyname | mgagne: I want to be everyone's friend ;-) | 17:58 |
| mgagne | =) | 17:58 |
| notmyname | especially ops | 17:58 |
| mgagne | hehe | 17:58 |
| mgagne | so I'm looking to bypass Glance when downloading images stored in Swift and see where it goes in term of performance | 17:59 |
| notmyname | what's the current bottleneck? | 17:59 |
| notmyname | network, cpu, drive IO? | 18:00 |
| mgagne | we have yet to fully identify the problem (we have firewall, glance, swift, in the data path) but so far, we see Glance itself as an unnecessary element in the download chain | 18:00 |
| notmyname | ok | 18:00 |
| notmyname | so one image needs to be loaded by 50 compute instances. and, because it wouldn't be fun otherwise, all 50 need the image at the same time | 18:01 |
| mgagne | yep | 18:01 |
| mgagne | exact situation | 18:02 |
| notmyname | how big is the image? | 18:02 |
| mgagne | ask infra =), maybe 10GB | 18:02 |
| notmyname | ok | 18:02 |
| pabelanger | 8GB | 18:02 |
| pabelanger | qcow2 | 18:02 |
| notmyname | and the whole image is needed before any of it can be used, right? so eg you can't start using the first byte before the last byte is downloaded | 18:02 |
| pabelanger | actually not sure how that would work | 18:03 |
| pabelanger | or what other providers do | 18:03 |
| pabelanger | but, I would imagine, we need to whole image | 18:03 |
| notmyname | yeah | 18:03 |
| mgagne | so we could scale Swift and Glance. But with Glance, cache is not shared so it would need to warm up on all nodes first. Glance cache is not used at its full potential since every compute nodes want the image right now, Glance has no time to warm up the cache. | 18:04 |
| notmyname | ok, and how many drives are in your swift cluster? order of magnitude? more than 100? | 18:04 |
| mgagne | we can cap the network bandwidth just fine when downloading a file =) | 18:04 |
| mgagne | I think one of the network hardware between Glance and Swift could be a bottleneck and also Glance itself (need to verify that first) | 18:05 |
| notmyname | I'm thinking of drive bandwidth, and it matters if you have 8 drives or 80 drives (or 800) | 18:05 |
| mgagne | there is a lot of elements and system in the data path. I don't think Swift itself is the botteneck. | 18:06 |
| notmyname | I hope not :-) | 18:07 |
| mgagne | I'm sure it's not =) | 18:07 |
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| notmyname | but with the idea I want to share, I want to make sure my suggestion matches what's possible. and it *really* matters if you have a few drives or "enough" drives | 18:08 |
| mgagne | true, will consider this aspect when adding more proxies as drives might be the next bottleneck for Swift. | 18:08 |
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| notmyname | right. so do you have about 10 drives in the cluster or more than 100? | 18:09 |
| mgagne | would have to check, I'm not the one managing Swift =) | 18:10 |
| mgagne | more than 100 | 18:11 |
| notmyname | ok, so assuming you have enough drives, here's what I'd do if I were writing a client to download 8+GB objects from swift and wanted to get 100% of the bytes to 50+ clients ASAP... | 18:11 |
| notmyname | ok, 100+ is fine for this case | 18:12 |
| notmyname | first, since there's a 5GB limit on an individual object in swift, you'll need to use large object manifests. I would definitely use static large objects (SLO) | 18:12 |
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| notmyname | SLOs work by making an object who's contents is a json blob listing the *other* objects that make it up. think of it kinda like a table of contents | 18:13 |
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| notmyname | so I'd split the original image into small pieces before uploading it. somehting in the 100-250MB range | 18:14 |
| notmyname | so you'd split it locally using whatever you want (FWIW, the python-swiftclient SDK and CLI can do this for you) and upload those to /v1/myaccount/image_foo_segments/seg_00000 etc | 18:15 |
| notmyname | so with an 8Gb image and 100MB segments, you'd end up with ~80 segments | 18:15 |
| mgagne | Glance manages this aspect, the user/customer doesn't manage it. I'm sure we can configure Glance to split as suggested | 18:15 |
| notmyname | right | 18:15 |
| mgagne | might already be the case by default | 18:16 |
| notmyname | then the 81st object you'd put into swift is the SLO manifest: /v1/myaccount/myimages/awesome.image | 18:16 |
| mgagne | will have to check and apply suggestions | 18:16 |
| notmyname | yeah, they used to use DLOs and then did some work to switch to SLOs at some point | 18:16 |
| mgagne | I'm sure Swift isn't the bottleneck for now. As mentioned, we have network hardwares and Glance in the datapath that we will need to check first. Once those are fixed/removed, we will work on optimizing Swift which might better scale than Glance =) | 18:16 |
| notmyname | ok, so now you've got the image into swift. now let's load it really really quickly using all the hardware in teh swift cluster | 18:17 |
| notmyname | so the naive way is to simply have all 50 clients GET the SLO and stream the bytes | 18:17 |
| notmyname | that will have a few problems | 18:17 |
| notmyname | first is that you'll end up with a lot of drive contention as each client starts getting bytes off of a single (or small set of) drive | 18:18 |
| notmyname | an HDD is bad at serving bytes quickly to 50+ clients at the same time. HDDs are slow | 18:18 |
| mgagne | right, is there something that can be done in the proxy for that? | 18:18 |
| notmyname | the second problem is that one stream won't likely max the network bandwidth for one client | 18:18 |
| notmyname | so the trick to solve both problems is the same thing: concurrently download different parts | 18:19 |
| mgagne | is this something that is controlled on the client side? or can swift proxy do some magic? | 18:20 |
| notmyname | so I'd make each of the 50+ VM hosts download the SLO itself (ie get the manifest) and then parse it to find the segments. then each client should randomize the list and download 10 segments at a time. then after all 80+ segments are downloaded, reassemble locally (ie cat them together) | 18:20 |
| notmyname | no, you don't want the swift proxy to do this, otherwise you'll be limited by one swift proxy. much much better to do this on the client itself | 18:20 |
| mgagne | right so we are talking about implementation details in the nova image download driver (that doesn't exist atm) | 18:20 |
| notmyname | right | 18:20 |
| mgagne | awesome | 18:21 |
| notmyname | but a lot of that logic about concurrent downloads is already written in python-swiftclient. | 18:21 |
| mgagne | so it's just a matter of enabling the feature? | 18:22 |
| notmyname | so if this is done, you'll have 50+ clients concurrently downloading parts of the whole in such a way that 80+ drives in the cluster are used at the same time. you should be able to max out your network and not max out HDD IO in this way | 18:22 |
| mgagne | shuffle ? | 18:22 |
| mgagne | but it looks like the option is enabled by default. no? | 18:23 |
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| notmyname | hi timburke | 18:24 |
| mgagne | "download 10 segments" -> controlled by object_dd_threads ? | 18:24 |
| notmyname | thingee: meet mgagne | 18:24 |
| notmyname | timburke: | 18:24 |
| timburke | hi mgagne! | 18:25 |
| mgagne | hi! | 18:25 |
| notmyname | timburke: ok, here's the summary: mgagne wants to download an SLO as quickly as possible to 50+ clients | 18:25 |
| notmyname | timburke: what's the options in swiftclient (service) to do the concurrent SLO download stuff you wrote? | 18:25 |
| mgagne | or with a bit more context: I want to fix the thundering herd problem when a new private image is uploaded by a customer and boot 50 instances on as much compute nodes. =) | 18:26 |
| timburke | notmyname: i didn't *write* it yet! that's what https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-swiftclient/+bug/1621562 is about | 18:26 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1621562 in python-swiftclient "Download large objects concurrently" [Wishlist,Confirmed] | 18:26 |
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| notmyname | lolo | 18:26 |
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| notmyname | ok, yeah, that's what I was describing to mgagne as a way to do it | 18:27 |
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| notmyname | the option 1 there | 18:27 |
| timburke | basically, you'll want each client to download the manifest (rather than the large object), shuffle the segments, and download them into a sparse file | 18:28 |
| notmyname | mgagne: I knew timburke would have the answer ;-) | 18:28 |
| timburke | which also seems like what clayg prefers | 18:28 |
| notmyname | timburke: or local file that's then concat'd with the others at the end | 18:28 |
| mgagne | right, makes a lot of sense | 18:28 |
| timburke | fwiw, we have code to fetch the manifest and figure out the list of segments already | 18:29 |
| timburke | just a matter of typing :P | 18:29 |
| notmyname | but there's still some mechanism in swiftclient to facilitate that, if a client wanted to do it now | 18:29 |
| notmyname | the download threads/concurrency thing | 18:29 |
| mgagne | yea, found it. so I'm not sure how it relates to the bug report | 18:29 |
| timburke | how are we using it? cli or python? | 18:29 |
| mgagne | or could it be that python only support concurrent download of different objects and not large object chunks? http://docs.openstack.org/developer/python-swiftclient/swiftclient.html#swiftclient.multithreading.MultiThreadingManager | 18:31 |
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| mgagne | and upload is supported with segment_threads and not download of chunks? | 18:32 |
| mgagne | first time I'm looking at swiftclient so bear with me =) | 18:33 |
| notmyname | yeah, the bug report is to do that automatically on downloads. It should be possible to do it today, it's just that the magic auto-ness isn't in swiftclient downloads. but one could use the primitives to do the same thing that's tin the bug report | 18:33 |
| timburke | weeeeelllll... we can find a way around it, if we're willing to do the reconstruction client-side. but yes, the dd-threads option is talking about objects, not segments within a large object | 18:33 |
| mgagne | right. brb in 5m | 18:34 |
| notmyname | timburke: so a client could build the "work list" by fetching the manifest, then use the download threads to get concurrency, then reconstruct locally, right? | 18:34 |
| * notmyname needs to step out too. will be back later | 18:35 | |
| timburke | how much can we assume about the upload? eg, that it was done by swiftclient? that it was a dlo, or an slo? or do we want to discover all of this as part of it? | 18:35 |
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| mgagne | timburke: the idea I had is to add the ability to nova-compute to download an image from Swift if possible instead of Glance itself so middleman is bypassed. So it would have to support whatever methods Glance used to upload the image to Swift. | 18:38 |
| mgagne | I have a lot on my plate for the next weeks. So I might just throw resources/hardware at the problem for now. If I find time, I might work on the proposed idea. | 18:39 |
| timburke | makes sense. and doing it in python should make things easier | 18:40 |
| timburke | fwiw, glance would be uploading slos now, but dlos previously | 18:41 |
| mgagne | which version? | 18:41 |
| mgagne | we are running kilo atm, planning on upgrading soon (that's one of the task in my plate) | 18:42 |
| mgagne | but this future work would need the work described in above bug report, right? | 18:42 |
| timburke | actually, i stand corrected. glance uses dlos, and presumably has for a while. maybe i was thinking of shade or someone else? | 18:44 |
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| timburke | mgagne: depends on how exactly we want the integration to work. ideally, yes, we'd fix swiftclient to do the concurrent download of segments, then get nova to use the new feature | 18:47 |
| mgagne | :D | 18:49 |
| timburke | but if you need it in a hurry, you could get nova to head the object and determine the manifest prefix, get the appropriate container listing, pipe that back through swiftclient to download, and then reassemble yourself. with the caveat that hopefully that would all be replaced fairly quickly once the feature lands in swiftclient | 18:49 |
| timburke | having another person asking for it bumps this up *my* priority list a bit, so good to know :-) | 18:50 |
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| mgagne | I might not be able to invest time in the very short term but yes, it looks like a feature I would definitely use. | 18:56 |
| timburke | mgagne: fwiw, with a bit of cli magic, current swiftclient can do the concurrent download for dlos (doesn't take care of reconstruction, though, and what i've got leaves a rather messy path) | 18:59 |
| timburke | something like `swift download $(swift stat "$CONTAINER" "$DLO" | grep Manifest | sed -e 's/^[^:]*: //' -e 's!/! --prefix=!')` might be useful | 18:59 |
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