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| mrhillsman | g'morning | 13:24 |
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| openstackgerrit | Craig Sterrett proposed openstack/osops-tools-contrib: Added dir and heat files for interop challange https://review.openstack.org/351799 | 17:55 |
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| klindgren_ | For those of you guys doing cd and you are using jenkins, what are you using to actually do deployments out to your physical assets or running puppet/ceph or the like? | 20:01 |
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| klindgren_ | Or I guess the question I should be asking is. Do you guys use jenkins to attempt to deploy stuff (new packages/config changes/service restarts) via jenkins | 20:05 |
| klindgren_ | or are you using a whole different system to do that | 20:05 |
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| jlk | Jenkins | 20:07 |
| jlk | We use ansible + heat to create a cloud on VMs | 20:07 |
| jlk | and ursula to deploy ( because what we're testing is usually Ursula ) | 20:07 |
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| jlk | eventually some of that heat may be replaced or augmented with ironic for testing on larger bare metal clouds | 20:08 |
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| mgagne | klindgren_: we use Jenkins for our apps because we don't know better for UI and task automation =) | 20:18 |
| mgagne | klindgren_: we are using ansible only (+ Puppet) for our cloud platform (no jenkins for deployment management) | 20:18 |
| mgagne | cool part about jenkins is the pipeline view so you get a general idea about what and when stuff are deployed | 20:19 |
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| klindgren_ | so are you kicking ansible runs off by Jenkins? | 20:19 |
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| mgagne | klindgren_: we have 2 deployments system in fact | 20:20 |
| klindgren_ | bascially - trying to get the hell out of running puppet on servers with masterless puppet and wrapping that with a bunch of other checks done by mr jenkins | 20:20 |
| mgagne | 1) "dev" apps: Jenkins triggers a custom bash script which rsync Puppet manifests and run puppet apply. | 20:20 |
| klindgren_ | but using jenkins to run ansible to run puppet or other tasks seems... like an odd use of jenkins | 20:20 |
| mgagne | 2) OpenStack: We run Ansible and it deploy latest puppetmaster package, rest is done with puppet agent | 20:21 |
| mgagne | klindgren_: when you don't know better and have legacy, that's what you get =) | 20:21 |
| klindgren_ | bascially using jenkins as a task runner/deployer for which it seems like other systems do that work better? | 20:21 |
| mgagne | let me know if you know a better system, I'm really open to ideas at this point | 20:21 |
| mgagne | better of jenkins: you benefit from the pipeline view. So you know build #12 passed unit tests, integration tests, deployed in staging, now awaiting deployment in produciton | 20:22 |
| openfly | i've seen jenkins used to deploy stuff | 20:23 |
| openfly | i prefer to use a CFM for the deploy | 20:23 |
| mgagne | but with our "stable master" initiative, (gerrit and friends), our "main" jenkins now only has deployment tasks | 20:23 |
| openfly | but jenkins for STAGING the deploy | 20:23 |
| klindgren_ | openfly, CFM? | 20:23 |
| openfly | and if you do use jenkins for production rollouts... use an isolated one. not the same one your devs use. | 20:23 |
| xavpaice | GoCD is an option too | 20:24 |
| openfly | configuration management software. puppet / chef / whathaveyou | 20:24 |
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| openfly | also folks have been using docker for deploying the service components of jenkins | 20:24 |
| openfly | or raw AMIs | 20:24 |
| openfly | which is another approach | 20:25 |
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| openfly | IE build the docker / ami what have you in jenkins and roll out via standard orchestration | 20:25 |
| klindgren_ | eh - thats not really an answer then imho. Bascially talking about getting the hell out of logging into servers to run x or figuring out ordering or what not. IE I have x change defined I want to push a button and it makes it so in the correct ordering on the correct servers | 20:25 |
| openfly | which is doable in a dev environment but terrible for production rollout | 20:25 |
| klindgren_ | with checks along the way to make sure things aren't going down in a blaze of glorry | 20:26 |
| openfly | you want as few moving parts as possible in prod / uat rolls | 20:26 |
| openfly | static EVERYTHING to avoid any failurse in dynamic methods | 20:26 |
| klindgren_ | um? then how do you deploy static everything? | 20:26 |
| openfly | one way is docker | 20:26 |
| klindgren_ | Like you have puppet - pretty much impposible to get static everything? | 20:27 |
| openfly | another is packaging venvs | 20:27 |
| openfly | which is wierd and a bit tricky | 20:27 |
| openfly | only debian really has a supported way to do that | 20:27 |
| klindgren_ | eh - I think we are talking about two different things here | 20:27 |
| openfly | but you can do it in rpm | 20:27 |
| xavpaice | we're driving towards using GoCD to drive ansible runs + other config management to do deploys - full pipeline with a pushbutton to move across steps, and access controls | 20:27 |
| mgagne | I think Jenkins or not isn't the question here since you are looking for validation and Jenkins isn't the one that will help you here | 20:27 |
| jlk | You want as little open-ended as pssible | 20:27 |
| openfly | yeah that's a lot of complexity for low return | 20:27 |
| jlk | no "latest" versions of things | 20:27 |
| jlk | explicit versioning. Ideally building as much code as possible into an artifact | 20:28 |
| jlk | that's re-used over and over | 20:28 |
| xavpaice | +1 | 20:28 |
| openfly | +1 to jlk | 20:28 |
| klindgren_ | yea - check | 20:28 |
| jlk | in a fantasy world, everything goes into a container that's immutable | 20:28 |
| klindgren_ | now working to how do you deploy that | 20:28 |
| openfly | build it all in CI/CD stage it to whatever repo | 20:28 |
| openfly | then roll as a single entity / artifact from there | 20:28 |
| klindgren_ | which is what I am really targeting with my questioning | 20:28 |
| jlk | klindgren_: We build deb packages of openstack code in virtualenvs | 20:28 |
| openfly | jlk you can get pretty close to ideal state with low effort | 20:28 |
| jlk | and deploy those packages with ansible | 20:28 |
| klindgren_ | do you trigger those ansible runs from jenkins? | 20:29 |
| jlk | we build once, and test in CI, preprod, prod | 20:29 |
| openfly | jlk i do similar with rpms | 20:29 |
| mgagne | yea, no latest here too, all pinned or static artifacts | 20:29 |
| xavpaice | we also use debs like that (borrowed tooling from jlk) | 20:29 |
| mgagne | brb lunch | 20:29 |
| jlk | Ci is jenkins, preprod and prod are still manual runs of ursula | 20:29 |
| openfly | but i've heard the bluebox folks are moving to docker containers | 20:29 |
| jlk | openfly: maybe? It's on the wishlist | 20:29 |
| openfly | i tried years back but the networking wasn't there | 20:29 |
| xavpaice | that seems to be where docker sits for a number of people | 20:29 |
| openfly | it's gotten better or so i am told. | 20:29 |
| openfly | but yeah portable venvs ftw | 20:30 |
| jlk | right, blockers are network, nova-compute (iscsi for volumes), swift for disk access, things like that | 20:30 |
| xavpaice | jlk: with the venvs packaged up, do you sometimes see issues where binaries (xxx-dev) packages differ between the build env and the target? | 20:30 |
| openfly | network is... tricky | 20:30 |
| openfly | i admit i used to work for bigswitch... but they had some damned fine gear for pushing configs to. | 20:31 |
| xavpaice | LXC is the same issues as docker in that respect | 20:31 |
| jlk | xavpaice: sometimes, but rarely in a meaningful way. We are usually pretty prescriptive about our needs in those cases. | 20:31 |
| xavpaice | it's usually fine for us, except when we're going through an upgrade and have, e.g., Liberty Cinder and Mitaka something else | 20:31 |
| xavpaice | but that's mainly because we're bad and co-exist all the things on the OS | 20:32 |
| jlk | ah, we do all of them in the same run | 20:32 |
| xavpaice | brave :) | 20:32 |
| jlk | like, we don't plan to have mixed versions for longer than it takes to complete the ansible playbook | 20:32 |
| jlk | xavpaice: we don't have the resources to test the various scenarios :) | 20:32 |
| openfly | years back i put all my cisco configs in puppet | 20:32 |
| openfly | and just templated em | 20:32 |
| xavpaice | tbh, nor do we ;) | 20:32 |
| jlk | but yeah, we just completed Kilo -> Mitaka | 20:32 |
| openfly | kinda sketch but it worked enough for top of rack | 20:33 |
| openfly | pushed in the config via an ssh-agent script | 20:33 |
| openfly | i know some of the sdn switches out there have puppet modules these days | 20:33 |
| openfly | =/ | 20:33 |
| openfly | anywho i am going to go back to work. | 20:34 |
| jlk | we've got some automation for vyatta OS for our front LBs | 20:34 |
| openfly | GL all | 20:34 |
| xavpaice | klindgren_: is jenkins enough to trigger things between various stages, e.g. dev -> staging -> prod, with gates to allow that to happen? | 20:35 |
| xavpaice | feels like it's not quite the right tool for that | 20:35 |
| xavpaice | only because it seems less than obvious as to how - whereas tools like GoCD use Jenkins to run their stages, which, to me, seems a bit more logical | 20:36 |
| klindgren_ | I will checkout gocd | 20:36 |
| xavpaice | we were pointed at it due to a number of other areas in the business using it, so had the advantage of access to people that can drive it | 20:37 |
| xavpaice | warning: xml configs | 20:37 |
| klindgren_ | ugh - xml | 20:38 |
| klindgren_ | not the wrose but seriously. | 20:38 |
| xavpaice | yeah, luckily there's config management tools for it | 20:41 |
| jlk | So, rundeck might be more useful for those deploy type tasks | 20:45 |
| jlk | or, something like Ansible Tower | 20:46 |
| jlk | Jenkins is more useful to artifact build up, development CI, etc.. Rundeck more for operational repeatable tasks with limited input | 20:46 |
| jlk | You could do it with jenkins though, RAX did | 20:46 |
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| * xavpaice googles rundeck | 20:48 | |
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| xavpaice | that might just solve a bunch of problems round here :) | 20:55 |
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| klindgren_ | xavpaice, what scale are you using gocd at? | 21:10 |
| xavpaice | small. Very small. | 21:12 |
| xavpaice | and not particularly complex, either | 21:12 |
| jlk | Thoughtworks tried to get us to use GoCD before they open sourced it. (this was when I was at RAX). But we rejected it. | 21:13 |
| xavpaice | open source is a pre-req for anything we use here | 21:13 |
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| jlk | good | 21:14 |
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| xavpaice | it's a nice place to work :) | 21:14 |
| jlk | I felt like goCD was really heavy, and only was really useful if it had its hands on everything, every aspect of software delivery | 21:14 |
| jlk | and that's really concerning to me | 21:14 |
| jlk | lock-in | 21:14 |
| xavpaice | it's quite new for our team, we're still finding our feet - but it helps having other people in the business that have more experience | 21:15 |
| xavpaice | I'm interested in playing with rundeck though - even as a complimentary tool - there's some gaps in our toolset that I've been trying to fill with Ansible plays but that's confusing for the rest of the team if I'm not really careful | 21:16 |
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| yankcrime | +1 for rundeck | 21:25 |
| yankcrime | i hear (or heard) good things about stackstorm as well | 21:25 |
| jlk | Note, we don't use rundeck currently, but I've put some thought into it | 21:26 |
| yankcrime | and apache brooklyn might be worth looking at | 21:26 |
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| xavpaice | going back to the containers thing, are people deploying things like the Neutron L3 agent, nova compute, swift storage, in containers at all? | 21:40 |
| xavpaice | APIs and such seems pretty straightforward, but the Neutron L3 agent with all the network namespaces and openvswitch stuff we use just seems a little complex | 21:40 |
| jlk | right | 21:41 |
| jlk | I haven't looked all that deeply | 21:41 |
| jlk | because I've been told there are some non-starters | 21:41 |
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| xavpaice | that's why we've shied away too, but KVM VMs are getting expensive | 21:44 |
| yankcrime | we're only sticking things in containers that lend themselves to being deployed in that way (for now) | 21:47 |
| yankcrime | so yeah, that's mostly the api / scheduler components etc. | 21:47 |
| yankcrime | giving our customers the ability to manage and run containers natively is a bigger priority for us tbh | 21:48 |
| yankcrime | our own use of containers for various bits of infra is secondary really | 21:48 |
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| xavpaice | I'm only really interested in our infra being in containers to provide some kind of separation beyond what's on offer with venvs, and so we can add/remove items more rapidly rather than patch/maintain | 22:06 |
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| yankcrime | yup, exactly the same rationale for us | 22:12 |
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