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| pilgrimstack1 | j^2: what does it mean? how it could be big tent but not ATC? | 08:07 |
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| yankcrime | pilgrimstack1: i think the plan is to credit osops-related contributions with something that isn't just a reflection of code committed | 11:38 |
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| RaginBajin | yankcrime pilgrimstack1: That's right. There were a few sessions at the Summit about providing a different type of recognition instead of ATC. That way others who may not contribute code are recognized for their work. | 13:08 |
| RaginBajin | This was the session - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/AUS-ops-Ops-Recognition | 13:09 |
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| pilgrimstack1 | ping pfreund, this should concern yourself | 13:11 |
| pfreund | I was there. | 13:12 |
| pfreund | ;) | 13:13 |
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| mrhillsman | morning | 13:20 |
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| RaginBajin | morning | 13:42 |
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| mdorman | anybody out there making use of private flavors much? | 16:08 |
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| mgagne | mdorman: with cells? :D | 16:10 |
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| jlk | mdorman: kinda? I think some of our customers are making flavors, that may or may not be public. | 16:35 |
| mdorman | mgagne: well, yeah, with cells, hehe. | 16:43 |
| mdorman | mgagne / jlk yeah we’re looking at making special flavors for certain users with specific use cases that need a much larger root disk , or something like that. but we don’t wnat to expose those out to all the users generally | 16:44 |
| mdorman | just curious how well the private flavors stuff actually works as far as them only being availble to a single tenant | 16:44 |
| jlk | I think ti's been working fine for us | 16:44 |
| mdorman | kk | 16:46 |
| mdorman | good data point, thanks | 16:46 |
| automagically | We use them pretty regularly as well | 16:46 |
| automagically | And they seem to work out well | 16:47 |
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| jlk | So good news. It appears you can cleanly and easily upgrade from Kilo directly to Mitaka. | 16:53 |
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| mgagne | jlk: great news! :D | 17:05 |
| jlk | I only had to make minimal changes to our upgrade playbook we used for havana -> kilo. | 17:05 |
| mgagne | jlk: so this means we might be able to skip a couple of versions too :D https://twitter.com/mgagne/status/726201431016005633 | 17:05 |
| jlk | heh | 17:06 |
| jlk | even more awesome, every step of the way my cloud stayed minimally functional, testing between each major service upgrade. | 17:06 |
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| mriedem | so, are there any large production openstack clouds running with 0mq that anyone is aware of? | 17:16 |
| mriedem | and doing it better than with rabbitmq? | 17:16 |
| mriedem | jlk: klindgren: j^2: ^? | 17:17 |
| jlk | I haven't heard of anybody at scale being successful with 0mq | 17:18 |
| jlk | for... just about anything, let alone OpenStack | 17:18 |
| klindgren | I am not aware of anyone doning 0mq either | 17:18 |
| mriedem | ok, thanks for the info | 17:18 |
| mriedem | i didn't think so | 17:18 |
| * mriedem is about to send a rant | 17:18 | |
| klindgren | I thought mirantis was doing some testing and showed that for openstack 0mq was slower? | 17:18 |
| mriedem | jaypipes told me that they are testing 0mq and have had issues | 17:19 |
| klindgren | part of that might be the way components are using 0mq. IE Openstack's implementation of 0mq is less than ideal and no one has put the time in it to make it better. | 17:20 |
| mriedem | sure, and people using rabbit is what has made it better in oslo.messaging, like the heartbeat thing | 17:21 |
| klindgren | exactly | 17:22 |
| jlk | yeah, I'd be really really curious what problem people are trying to solve with 0mq | 17:22 |
| jlk | Cells + rabbit seems to have scaled rather well for RAX | 17:23 |
| mgagne | If we really want to talk about scaling, I hope we design with 100k+ nodes in mind then. | 17:24 |
| jlk | Well, RAX wasn't there yet, when I left | 17:25 |
| jlk | 60K~ between 6~ regions | 17:26 |
| mgagne | I'm more or less hoping that planning for much more than needed will force people to find and fix limitations in design and plan for hyperscale instead | 17:27 |
| mgagne | 10k is enough right? then comes the next guy with 50k nodes and we have to redesign again | 17:28 |
| jlk | sure, but some designs for super scale are overly complicated for reasonable scale. | 17:30 |
| mgagne | true and I unfortunately don't have any proposition. We already had that situation anyway with RAX writing cells on its own. So I have this weird feeling that history will repeat itself again. | 17:32 |
| mgagne | I'm however very curious about the implementation details of cellsv2, didn't have time to check yet | 17:33 |
| mgagne | still trying to make xenial responds to ping :-/ | 17:33 |
| mgagne | which isn't glamorous :-/ | 17:33 |
| jlk | hah | 17:34 |
| jlk | I sat in a cellsv2 design session at summit | 17:34 |
| jlk | it's still a ways off. | 17:34 |
| jlk | and there are still concerns with scheduler bottleneck given the design of v2 | 17:34 |
| mgagne | jlk: yes, that's my main concern, scheduling performance | 17:34 |
| jlk | so with cellsv2, there is still just a single scheduler | 17:35 |
| jlk | there is not a scheduler per-cell | 17:35 |
| mgagne | yea... we were able to partition cloud and baremetal in cells. now it would be gone | 17:35 |
| jlk | improving scheduler performance is its own project, not necessarily tied to cells. | 17:35 |
| mgagne | and we already see races in baremetal scheduling due to the number of nodes and the way ironic driver in Nova compute works (lack of clustering) | 17:36 |
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| jlk | Upstream gate tests aren't even really testing cells yet. THere is a plan for single-cell testing, where nova-api and other services are separated across two nodes. Multi-cell testing comes later. | 17:36 |
| mgagne | but the presentation made by Intel about scheduling performance gave me great insight about the bottleneck and how to improve it | 17:37 |
| jlk | ah I missed that one | 17:37 |
| jlk | glad to see people putting resources behind improving it though | 17:37 |
| jlk | Nova has been talking about splitting scheduling off to it's own DB as well | 17:37 |
| mgagne | jlk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcHyiOdme2s | 17:38 |
| jlk | THanks, one of hundreds of those I need to watch :/ | 17:38 |
| mgagne | yea, just not enough time to watch them all and do work at the same time =( | 17:39 |
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| clayton | mdorman: we do private flavors pretty regularly | 18:23 |
| clayton | you can give more than one tenant access to a private flavor | 18:23 |
| clayton | we have some that are kind of standard that we give people access to as needed | 18:23 |
| mdorman | cool cool, thanks for info. | 18:25 |
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| klindgren | Re: scale - I would like to see projects be able to handle "modderate scale" without sharding - but then have a sharding story to handle massive scale. | 18:39 |
| jlk | so that's basically single cell vs multiple cells | 18:42 |
| klindgren | moderate scale being between 5-10k nodes - 100k-200k vm's, imho. before sharding is needed | 18:42 |
| jlk | and a scale point for single cell where things start to fall over | 18:42 |
| jlk | or do you mean sharding as in regions? | 18:42 |
| klindgren | cells like solution | 18:42 |
| jlk | because with your numbers, I think that's more scaling (with cells) within a single region, and then going to regions for the next level up. | 18:43 |
| klindgren | bascially - I want to run a whole DC behind openstack | 18:43 |
| mdorman | for varying size values of “DC” :) | 18:43 |
| jlk | right | 18:44 |
| klindgren | Without having to have regions like DC - server room a DC - server room b. | 18:44 |
| jlk | that's what RAX did. Each DC was essentially a region. | 18:44 |
| mdorman | yeah same for us | 18:44 |
| mgagne | jlk: I don't feel regions should be seen as a scaling solution | 18:44 |
| jlk | each DC would scale upwards to 30K or so HVs before I left | 18:44 |
| jlk | mgagne: no, it just happened to work well | 18:44 |
| jlk | no idea what happens if you try to throw 60K HVs at one region. | 18:45 |
| jlk | we just don't have any clue what the pain points are for A) size of a single cell, B) aggregate size of all cells, and C) sheer # of cells | 18:45 |
| mgagne | jlk: how do you think that A provider doing scaling at the control plane? nothing the user can see for sure | 18:47 |
| jlk | I'm having a hard time parsing that question | 18:47 |
| mgagne | what is EC2 doing to scale? | 18:47 |
| klindgren | not using openstack | 18:48 |
| mdorman | wouldn’t we all like to know :) | 18:48 |
| klindgren | >_> | 18:48 |
| klindgren | <_< | 18:48 |
| mgagne | jlk: clearly you don't have to switch "regions" in the same AZ zone and I'm sure it supports much more than 10k nodes | 18:48 |
| jlk | well it really depends on how you set up your control plane | 18:48 |
| jlk | Nothing officially scales that big | 18:48 |
| jlk | dumping all those nodes into a single cell is going to have some pain points. DB access contention (sheer bandwidth concerns), rabbit contention, glance bandwidth, scheduler performance, nova conductor performance, network segmentation, etc... | 18:49 |
| mdorman | yeah there is always going to be some other bottleneck somewhere | 18:50 |
| mgagne | jlk: I'm sure they have a different design than openstack :D | 18:50 |
| klindgren | not to mention failure domain size | 18:50 |
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| jlk | Currently in OpenStack there is no tech to scale out of those problems. Cells is the answer for that, for better or worse, and cellsv1 is just incomplete, and cellsv2 is also incomplete | 18:50 |
| mgagne | 2 incomplete versions? :O | 18:51 |
| mdorman | haha | 18:51 |
| jlk | yeah, cellsv1 was done out of tree by RAX, and it has some tradeoffs | 18:51 |
| jlk | it was never complete enough to go in-tree | 18:51 |
| mgagne | =) | 18:51 |
| jlk | the cellsv2 design is loosely based on it, but significantly different in some ways | 18:51 |
| jlk | and, well, just isn't really complete yet. | 18:51 |
| mdorman | getting there | 18:52 |
| klindgren | For next summit - I am thinking of a t-shirt that says: I am the original cell0. | 18:52 |
| jlk | add to this we have so few companies doing scale beyond 10K nodes | 18:52 |
| jlk | getting any sort of real #s is going to be difficult, as it can vary greatly on workload | 18:53 |
| klindgren | yea - that is an interesting point where per the user survey most openstack ( like > 80%, iirc) installs are under 100 nodes | 18:54 |
| klindgren | with more than 50% being under 20 | 18:54 |
| jlk | It takes a lot of $$ to drive 10K nodes | 18:54 |
| mgagne | are we considering baremetal nodes? =) | 18:55 |
| jlk | generally yes, the hypervisor count is 1 HV per bare metal computer | 18:55 |
| mgagne | hehe | 18:55 |
| mgagne | we might get over 10k soonish then =) | 18:56 |
| mdorman | :) | 18:56 |
| mgagne | we fun to hear about how Mirantis enrolled existing nodes to Ironic | 18:56 |
| mdorman | RaginBajin: may be afew minutes late for meeting, need to go grab food real quick first. but i’ll catch up on the convo. | 18:57 |
| RaginBajin | Sounds good. | 18:57 |
| mgagne | our reaction was: Hey! we could have given that talk! | 18:57 |
| jlk | I've seen some really good demos from Deva using bifrost for that | 19:00 |
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| mgagne | jlk: this slide summarizes the enrollment process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIGKSYEOt6Y&feature=youtu.be&list=PLRkaKWXET-H6IBSoFzKA1LYJ83IKTQCVi&t=1078 | 19:18 |
| mgagne | use Ironic fake driver, use scheduler hint in Nova to enroll Ironic node in Nova | 19:19 |
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