Thursday, 2015-08-27

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gfa15:25
gfaouch15:26
gfasorry15:26
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VW_morning folks - anyone able to make it in for the Large Deployments meeting?16:01
klindgrenI am here16:02
VW_I think it just may just be the two of us16:05
VW_but oh well...16:05
VW_#startmeeting Large Deployments Team August 2015 Meeting16:06
openstackMeeting started Thu Aug 27 16:06:26 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is VW_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:06
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:06
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'large_deployments_team_august_2015_meeting'16:06
VW_#topic Neutron and Segments16:07
VW_so, klindgren, I moved from one OpenStack event to another16:07
VW_anything happen after the LDT session where the Neutron folks dialed in?16:08
VW_guessing not :)16:12
klindgrenno - sorry didn't think this started until like another 20 min16:12
VW_tis OK16:12
VW_I'm actually doing this, and sitting in keynotes and OSSV15, so ....16:13
klindgrentrying to rmeember16:13
klindgrenI believe there was some discussion around scale.  Where scale in this case was relatively small16:13
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klindgrenlike 100 networks with neutron-client blowing up, and something about clients not handling multi-region well at all16:14
klindgrenwhen a common keystone was used16:14
klindgrenI believe all of those things were fixed upstream16:15
klindgrenbut points to a lack of functional testing in the gate16:15
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klindgrenI think that was it16:16
klindgrenOh - some stuff about trying to get a taxonomy group formed16:17
klindgrenso that people can communicat using the same languauge that has the same definitions - since some words are overloaded in openstack/cloud16:18
VW_yeah - there was that too16:18
VW_not sure if anyone else from that conversation showed up16:19
VW_today that is16:19
klindgrenSome discussion around lawfull intercept as well16:19
VW_yeah16:19
VW_so, to me, that's part of the larger conversation of whehter or not there needs to be a Public Cloud Team seperate from the LDT16:20
klindgrenyea - I think a number of large deployers *ARE* public clouds16:20
serverascodeI do think there should be a public cloud working group myself16:21
klindgrenand you can run an internal cloud like a public cloud as well.16:21
serverascodewe are public but not necessarily large16:21
klindgrenBut I would be fine with scale issues being LDT focus, and better multi-tenancy and other stuff being the focus of public cloud16:22
VW_that's fair16:23
klindgrenboth are currently far from ideal :-)16:24
VW_indeed16:24
VW_Ok16:25
klindgrenI jsut ask that we try not to schedule LDT and public-cloud stuff together16:25
VW_#action VW_ talk to Tom F. about a Public Cloud working group of some sort16:25
gfai think will be a lot of people in common on both groups16:25
VW_there are a lot of common folks gfa16:25
VW_ant that is my struggle16:25
klindgrenI am also ok expanding LDT to include both16:26
VW_serverascode: what blocks you from being comfortable from joining the LDT and helping drive the public cloud issues too?16:26
serverascodeI find the LDT is mostly about large scale networks16:27
gfaas klindgren says, as long as schedule don't overlap it will be ok16:27
gfai think latter both groups can merge back if they are too small/similar16:28
serverascodethere aren't very many public clouds afaik, so I would imagine it would be small group16:28
gfamaybe experiment 2 groups and if does not work. go back to one group16:28
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VW_those are fair comments16:30
gfaif we keep the same IRC channel and mailing list, split/join the groups should be easy IMHO16:30
VW_serverascode: we are focused on networks a lot right now becuase our interaction with Neutron, but we really try to think about scaling problems in general16:30
VW_yes gfa - LDT has pretty much settled on the "operators" - both list and channel - for pretty much everything16:31
serverascodeyeah, I might just be floating out here on my own with no real perspective :) I dunno. I'd just like a group of ppl with similar problems to talk about, and I don't think that is the LDT for me right now, but again I might be a one-off kinda situation16:33
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VW_no, those are valid points serverascode16:37
VW_like I said, I can argue it either way16:37
VW_serverascode, gfa - are you coming to Tokyo16:38
gfai'm :(16:38
gfa:)16:38
serverascodeyeah should be16:38
VW_ok - for now, let's do this.  I'll see if we are going to get a good block of time for LDT (like we did in YVR) for LDT16:39
VW_if so, then why don't you join us and we'll talk this out for a bit in person16:39
serverascodesounds good to me, thanks :)16:40
VW_sure!16:40
VW_I'll work on it and try to get an update out vie ML and the September LDT meeting16:40
VW_so, on that note16:40
VW_#topic LDT bug list for cells V116:41
VW_^ that is probably our next big collective push with devs16:41
VW_agree/disagree?16:41
klindgrenagree16:42
klindgrenJust want to try to consolidate the patchsets that we all carry16:43
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klindgrenand try to get those upstreamed16:44
klindgrensince it looks like cells v1 is going to be around for atleast 1+ years16:44
VW_yep16:44
klindgren(I also want to try to do the same thing for general opperators as well)16:44
VW_did we ever etherpad that?16:44
klindgrenwe did - but Only a little bit16:45
VW_yes, I think this goes beyond LDT16:45
klindgrenhttps://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PAO-LDT-cells-patches16:45
VW_sweet!16:45
klindgrenI htink sam and I are the only ones that added anything16:46
klindgren;-)16:46
klindgren*cough* VW *cough*16:46
* VW_ duly notes the public shaming16:46
VW_This should be a big topic of ours in Tokyo16:47
VW_but we can do a lot of prework in the next two months16:47
klindgrenyea16:48
VW_ok, so I'll my act together and get some updates on there16:48
VW_then we'll get it out to the list16:48
VW_Cern should probably have some they can put there too16:49
klindgrenI plan on starting another etherpad of patches that we have for just business logic16:49
VW_That's a good idea16:49
VW_Those may be harder because all of us will probably end up with a few that are so specific, they won't go upstream16:50
klindgrenright - but until we talk about it - we never know16:50
klindgren4 people might be doing the same thing16:50
klindgrenlike 3 people having patches to fix vif plugging under cells v116:51
klindgrenbut as someone else mentioned it possible too that instead of a patch - we could add in a hook16:52
klindgrenif 4 people want to do something on x event but want to do different things16:52
VW_agreed16:52
VW_OK, let's put that at the top of the list for next month then16:53
VW_get some traction on the cells v1 in the interim and potentially tee both of them up for Tokyo working session16:54
VW_with the Public Cloud bit, of course16:54
VW_:)16:54
VW_wow - we may have just planned an agenda two months out16:55
klindgrenSo the only other thing that I have is that we did some work to get a better handle on doing QoS/policing on vm traffic to prevent outbound ddos from vm's16:55
VW_ooh yeah16:55
VW_#topic open discussion16:55
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VW_you should share some more details about that here for us to capture for all16:55
klindgrenbut it was done via libvirt/qemu hooks to apply custom tc rules to a vm on startup/shutdown16:56
VW_interesting16:56
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klindgrenbut the requirement was to filter specific sized traffic to a lower rate, and attempt to be able to police traffic to a set threshold depnding on flavor16:57
VW_what have the results been?16:57
klindgrenno dedtactable outbound ddos's so far16:58
klindgrensince we had a free beta going on - we had a fair amount of cruft that got in16:58
gfawhat you did is cool16:58
klindgrenbut against is 100% outside of openstack16:59
gfawe have talked about elasticsearch, kibana, etc before. I don't think is OT17:00
klindgrenbut figure other public cloud people probably have this issue and probably want a soltuoion - and the default tuneables in nova/neutron don't give you that ability yet17:00
klindgrenVW_ also no customer complaints - yet17:00
VW_Yeah, I'm really interested in where it goes.  Like I told you when we chatted, our upstream Backbone folks usually detect and then our AUP suspends17:01
klindgrenwe have used something similar on our VPS product for a few years now17:01
VW_always a good litmus test, klindgren17:01
VW_alright, well I'm happy to chat more, but I'll end the recording since we are at time17:01
VW_thank you all for joining.17:01
VW_sorry for being a bit distracted and conferencing while meeting at the same time17:02
VW_#end meeting17:02
VW_#endmeeting17:02
openstackMeeting ended Thu Aug 27 17:02:20 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/large_deployments_team_august_2015_meeting/2015/large_deployments_team_august_2015_meeting.2015-08-27-16.06.html17:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/large_deployments_team_august_2015_meeting/2015/large_deployments_team_august_2015_meeting.2015-08-27-16.06.txt17:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/large_deployments_team_august_2015_meeting/2015/large_deployments_team_august_2015_meeting.2015-08-27-16.06.log.html17:02
VW_hey, sidenote, klindgren.  I know you guys are very interested in the Auditing and Resolver services of ours.  What about the inventory bits?17:03
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klindgrenI am interested.  We have our own homegrown inventory thing17:04
VW_ok.  Got a VP pushing me to see what we could actually put out there by Tokyo :O17:05
VW_my money is on the inventory and provisioning bits17:05
VW_but I have a truckload of stuff to figure out - quickly17:05
klindgrenbut I think we are also looking at moving towards servicenow for some of that stuff17:05
klindgrenbut from the cloud side - I am ok having 2 inventory systems, on for the company another for the cloud17:06
VW_well, remember, for us it's kind of that way too, but in our world view the "company's" system is the asset management piece17:07
VW_and we are just aggregating17:07
VW_actually, I have some cool slides from my Fleet Management talk yesterday that covers that and more17:08
klindgrenfeel free to send them my way :-)17:08
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mnaseranyone see this come up from time to time in their compute logs: "NeutronClientException: Authentication required" ?18:54
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raginbajinklindgren: We are using service now as our asset management stuff.19:08
raginbajinWe've done a lot of home grown scripts to pull data out and organize it in some sort of sane manner.19:09
klindgrenraginbajin, are those scripts somewhere?19:10
raginbajinWe don't do a lot of things publicly yet, but I may be able to share privately.19:11
klindgrenI am ok having the data in two places, with one being the asset management view, and the other being the real view of the system and its state.19:12
raginbajinYeah. I'd like to reduce the views if I can. We have service now, we have a "showback" dashboard in Kibana, and then what you find in OpenStack itself19:13
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mgagneklindgren: (I'm very late to the conversation) you said you had stuff for QoS? Was the QoS support for libvirt insuffisant?21:26
klindgrenmgagne, we do - and it was21:27
klindgrenfor us atleast21:27
mgagneklindgren: was [insuffisant] ?21:28
mgagneklindgren: we found out that udp traffic is not properly handled by the libvirt qos filters21:28
klindgrenWe wanted to do things like limit all output of all vm's to 90% of the available server bandwidth21:29
klindgrenwe also have expereince with a number of outbound ddos that use small packet sizes21:29
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mgagneoh, so it's not a hard limit21:29
klindgrenso we wanted to rate limit vm's on small packet sizes to something like say 500kbits/s21:30
mgagneis this something tc can do?21:30
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klindgrenthen some product managers decided that they wanted to offer flavors that are limited to say 100mbit/s21:30
mgagneif so, we might just move to tc instead of whatever libvirt provides21:30
klindgrenso we use policing in tc to shape the traffic to that as well21:31
klindgrenmgagne, it is indeed21:31
klindgrenI should say we use shaping vs's policing21:32
mgagneright21:32
klindgrenwhere the libvirt stuff was like anything higher than 100bmit/s drop21:32
mgagneyea, it's doesn't work that well to prevent outgoing DoS :-/21:32
klindgrenshapping will doe queuing and the like to allow tcp windowing to come int to play and keep the transfer rate down21:32
mgagneworks well on legit trafic over TCP21:32
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klindgrenyea21:32
klindgrenlet me see if I can get our libvirt hook out onto our github21:33
mgagnewe are also thinking about integrating our smtp throttling into neutron21:34
mgagnewe currently have custom scripts hooking into iptables to throttle smtp.21:34
klindgrenwe do that differently21:34
mgagnewhile we don't want to block 100% of it, we still wish to limit damage21:35
klindgrenwe have a hard block on outbound trafic21:35
mgagneand not maintain a smarthost/relay21:35
klindgrenand relay servers that you need ot use to relay traffic21:35
klindgrenthat are tied to a quota system21:35
mgagneyes, that's a great idea. we just don't have the man power to maintain it =)21:35
klindgrenwe've used that for many many years so - it doesn;'t make sense to replace the tooling thats already there21:36
mgagneif we had such systems, we sure would have hooked it up to our openstack product too =)21:37
klindgrenhehe21:38
klindgrenanyway the basic premis is that we hook into the vm.start and vm.stop events that libvirt emits21:38
klindgrenand we modify the TC rules for the vm oursleves21:38
klindgrenthat way you can do qdisks with subqdisks and the like21:39
mgagnethat's something I should read about then21:39
mgagneoh btw, we also did our first nova cells migration yesterday. ~15m max and we were done. :D21:40
klindgrencool21:41
mgagnewent something like this (very simplified): stop services ; mysqldump nova | mysql nova_c1 ; update configs ; start services21:42
klindgrenyea - iirc that was pretty close to what we did too21:46
mgagneyea, I every much based mine on mike dorman's blog post21:47
klindgrenha - k21:47
klindgrenhopefully completed without the large train wreck photo21:48
mgagneso far, no train wreck :D21:48
mgagnewe didn't go down the rabbit split brain path. we are using rabbit virtual host for now21:49
klindgrenah21:49
klindgrenyea21:49
klindgrenhonestly on that21:49
klindgrenI would have just spun up a new rabbitmq21:49
klindgrenwith everything stopped21:50
mgagnewe already have a region running cells with vhost, no problem so far.21:50
klindgrenchanged the service configs to use the new rabbitmq and started everything up21:50
mgagnewith rabbitmq clustering, this means 3 new servers to maintain. =)21:50
klindgrenthe thing we are seeing is that or cell app servers are pretty busy21:50
klindgrenwith nova-conductor and rabbitmq21:51
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klindgrenmgagne, https://github.com/krislindgren/libvirt-tc-hook22:06
klindgren>_>22:06
klindgren<_<22:06
mgagneawesome, tyvm!22:07
logan2wow that was on my todo list for next week...22:08
logan2thanks22:12
klindgrennow you guys can enter the lovely world of TC22:16
klindgrenfull of dark magic and headaches22:16
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mgagne^^'22:19
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klindgrenI want it to do more, but for now - it solved the asks from one of the business people here22:22
klindgrenI should note that we only use this on some HV's22:22
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klindgrenI updated to include some install stuff22:31
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* mgagne trying to develop/patch code in openstack: http://imgur.com/gallery/t0XHtgJ23:40
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