Sunday, 2019-09-15

« Saturday, 2019-09-14 Index Monday, 2019-09-16 »
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: DB API changes to get non-matching aggregates from metadata  https://review.opendev.org/67107401:34
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: New objects for NUMA live migration  https://review.opendev.org/63482702:57
openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: LM: Use Claims to update numa-related XML on the source  https://review.opendev.org/63522902:57
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: Note about Destination.forbidden_aggregates  https://review.opendev.org/68094505:34
openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: Add a new request filter to isolate aggregates  https://review.opendev.org/67107505:36
openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: db: Add resources column in instance_extra table  https://review.opendev.org/67844706:12
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: object: Introduce Resource and ResourceList objs  https://review.opendev.org/67844806:33
openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: Add resources dict into _Provider  https://review.opendev.org/67844906:33
openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: Set user_id/project_id from context when creating a Migration  https://review.opendev.org/67941306:33
openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: Retrieve the allocations early  https://review.opendev.org/67845006:33
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: Docs for isolated aggregates request filter  https://review.opendev.org/66795209:20
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: NUMA live migration support  https://review.opendev.org/63460611:12
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openstackgerritgaryk proposed openstack/nova master: Deconstruct the mother of all locks  https://review.opendev.org/68224211:23
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MarkMielkeoslo_utils doesn't seem to have unit tests, but nova does... if oslo_utils needs a fix, is there any special downstream nova process that should be followed to pick it up, and test with it?14:48
MarkMielkespecifically, I'm talking about https://review.opendev.org/682247 which I just submitted14:49
sean-k-mooneyoh your fixing that issue15:05
sean-k-mooneythat is on my todo list15:05
sean-k-mooneyi personally would add tests to oslo utils15:05
sean-k-mooneythats breaking fedora with the virt preview repo enabeld currently15:07
sean-k-mooneyalshtough im not sure it affct any distros default packages yet?15:07
MarkMielkeright15:07
MarkMielkeqemu 4.1 provides important nVMX patches15:08
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MarkMielkeso not necessarily in distro15:08
MarkMielkecan use qemu 4.1 on RHEL 7 if need be15:09
MarkMielkeall of the tests for outputs seem to be in nova15:09
MarkMielkeseems like unit test confusion :-)15:09
sean-k-mooneynon of them shoudl be in nova15:09
sean-k-mooneythey should all be in oslo_untils15:10
sean-k-mooneybut i think that code was original ported from nova15:10
sean-k-mooneyso i guess they did not mvoe the tests15:10
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MarkMielkeI want to add a test, but I'm not familiar with setting it up from scratch, and I don't want to take on doing it all :-)15:11
sean-k-mooneynova really should not be asserting the parseing behavior of oslo code so i sustpect the nova tests are just legacy test we did not remove15:11
MarkMielketwo character fix :-( hehe15:11
sean-k-mooneyyou could add more test in nova but personally i think those are techdebt15:11
MarkMielkei agree from observing15:12
sean-k-mooneywell you could file a bug for the lack of test in oslo_utils15:12
MarkMielkegood idea15:12
sean-k-mooneyand submit the ptach without tests. you would have to use a depend on to test the feature in nova15:12
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sean-k-mooneybut we are pass the non client lib freeze so i dont exepct there to be another oslo release in Train15:13
MarkMielkehmm - i wondered about that15:13
MarkMielkehow important patches get in to dependency libraries15:13
sean-k-mooneyform a rhel perspective we can always backport this downstream15:14
MarkMielkepatches to the packages, you mean?15:14
sean-k-mooneybut i dont really consider this an important patch unless your saying the advance virt strema now ships this by default on rhel 715:14
MarkMielkewell i wondered in general - importance depends upon perspective, so i agree others might not consider it important15:15
MarkMielkeqemu 4.1 is important for nested virtualization use case15:15
MarkMielkeit's the first release that officially supports nested virtualization live migration15:15
sean-k-mooneynested virt work without it15:15
MarkMielkenah, they've eliminated it in 3.1 and 4.015:15
sean-k-mooneynested virt live migration also work without it15:15
MarkMielkebecause it was fundamentally broken15:15
MarkMielkethey have a live migration blocker implemented15:15
MarkMielkethat many distros disable15:15
sean-k-mooneyyou mean live migat of th l1 guest15:16
MarkMielkeit's basically unsafe15:16
sean-k-mooneynot the l2 guest15:16
MarkMielkethere is special KVM state in the L0 hypervisor that isn't transferred prior to qemu 4.115:16
MarkMielkebasically results in undefined memory at the target15:16
MarkMielkeundefined behaviour is the result ... better not actually be doing nested virtualization previously :-)15:17
sean-k-mooneyright but are you saying that qemu 4.1 fix live migration of l1 vms that contin l2 vm or live migration of l2 vms15:17
MarkMielkeyes15:17
sean-k-mooneyok that is different15:17
MarkMielkethe patches were added - and it passes for Oracle and others15:17
sean-k-mooneyyou could previosly safely migrate the l2 guests15:17
MarkMielkeunfortunately i have a use case that it doesn't work for15:17
MarkMielkebut they've tried to solve all the edge cases15:17
MarkMielkeit uses several new kernel features only in Linux 4.19 and later15:18
MarkMielkeso RHEL 8 would be a candidate for some of it15:18
sean-k-mooneyrhel 8 is based on 4.1815:18
sean-k-mooneybut ya it could be backported15:18
MarkMielkeyuck i thought it used 4.1915:19
sean-k-mooneynope which is annoying15:19
sean-k-mooneybut rhel kernel version dont really mena anything15:19
MarkMielkeRed Hat will just backport most of the patches anyways :-)15:19
sean-k-mooneyrhel 7 was 3.x and has patch from 4.1515:19
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sean-k-mooneyi work for redhat by the way which is why i said we could backport the oslo utils change if it was need becaue we stated shiping qemu 4.1 by default on rhel 7 with the advance vert stream15:21
MarkMielkehttps://github.com/qemu/qemu/commit/ebbfef2f34cfc749c045a4569dedb4f748ec024a15:21
sean-k-mooneybut i dont think we have or we would have got a bug report15:21
MarkMielkethere are a few patches in the set... but that's one of the important ones15:21
MarkMielkeI've been tracking these changes and the need for them since 2018, so it being almost usable is great. :-)15:24
MarkMielkelots of nVMX patches in Linux 5.0, 5.1, and 5.2 though... so 4.18 will just be annoying to patch to for you15:25
sean-k-mooneyout of interest why to you need to migrate the l1 guests? are the l1 guest your tenant guest and they are using nested virt on your cloud?15:26
MarkMielkein my particular use case - the users have "simulations" of network equipment running in guests15:26
MarkMielkepreviously they were on physical workstations15:26
MarkMielkenow they are in virtual machines15:26
MarkMielkecould be an embedded Linux using KVM, or could be Vxworks15:27
MarkMielkeso those machines are basically not safe to live migration until now15:27
MarkMielkei've found the only safe recipe is one by one:15:27
sean-k-mooneyyes but live migration is really only for mantaince15:27
MarkMielke1) confirm no L2 guests running in the L1 hypervisor15:27
sean-k-mooneyis that your usecase15:27
MarkMielke2) rmmod kvm_intel15:28
MarkMielke3) live migrate15:28
MarkMielke4) modprobe kvm_intel15:28
MarkMielkeit's terribly painful for 1700+ machines15:28
MarkMielkeyes, maintenance - basically to patch the hypervisors15:28
sean-k-mooneyif you do step 1 then why do you need 2 and 415:28
MarkMielkeor to balance load if necessary (although because of the limitations we basically ensure it is never necessary)15:28
sean-k-mooneyif there are no l2 guest it should be safe to migrate the l115:28
MarkMielkebecause they might have used KVM in past15:28
MarkMielkeif they used it, and then not using it - it still transfers bad state15:29
MarkMielkeundefined memory where the KVM state should be15:29
MarkMielkethe qemu people say it's dangerous always15:29
MarkMielkebut i haven't hit one problem doing the above15:29
MarkMielkei believe it triggers re-initialization of the memory15:30
sean-k-mooneyok i was not aware it permently tainted the guest15:30
MarkMielkeyeah that's why they made live migration blocker15:30
MarkMielkethey don't want to support it at all after they realized how bad it was15:30
sean-k-mooneythey have not comunicated that well15:30
MarkMielkenope :-)15:30
MarkMielkethey just went from it working sort of15:30
sean-k-mooneyif they did we might have considerd blocking it in nova15:31
MarkMielketo live migration fails if VMX is enabled on the guest :-)15:31
MarkMielkebut Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. disable the live migration blocker15:31
MarkMielkewhich I also did in my custom builds15:31
MarkMielkebecause I still need to do it - even if I choose to almost never do it15:31
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sean-k-mooneyya i use nested vert all the time. and often migrate l1 guests15:32
sean-k-mooneyi have never had a problem15:32
sean-k-mooneythat said i have never migrated an l1 guest with l2 guests15:32
sean-k-mooneyalthough i normally end up migrating l2 guest more often the l115:32
sean-k-mooneyos that s proably why15:33
MarkMielkei've never done l2 guest myself - but i know that the users do it on their own, because that's really their use case15:33
MarkMielkethey just know they want to move the guest from point A to point B15:33
MarkMielkeno idea it's L2 or not :-)15:33
sean-k-mooneywell on my dev systems im spinning up l1 guests to run devstack and then testing live migartion move l2 guests around15:34
MarkMielkeah right15:34
MarkMielkeopenstack on openstack :-)15:34
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sean-k-mooneyso for me l1 is simulating a cloud and l2 is my test workload15:34
sean-k-mooneyand yes but not with tripleO15:34
MarkMielketripleO doesn't even mean tripleO anymore, right? doesn't it mean OpenStack on K8? haha15:35
sean-k-mooneynot yet15:35
sean-k-mooneybut yat they are  slowlow dismanteling the undercloud15:35
sean-k-mooneypersonally i much prefer kolla-ansible or OSA15:36
MarkMielkeme too15:36
sean-k-mooneytriplo is too complicated15:36
sean-k-mooneyand has too much techdebt in all its layers15:36
MarkMielkeit's somewhat purist without regard to consequences15:36
MarkMielkemy view :-)15:37
sean-k-mooneyim not sure i would agree. i think it use to be more pure and simple15:37
sean-k-mooneyand now with contariation its less pure and more complicated15:37
sean-k-mooneylucally while i have to debug customer systems ocationally (mainly via logs) i dont actuly need to use triplO day to day15:38
MarkMielkeKayobe is the one that was appealing to me15:39
MarkMielkeIronic in stand-alone mode15:39
MarkMielkeKolla15:39
MarkMielkeAnsible15:39
sean-k-mooneyyep when i work at intel i pitched basically what they implemented internlaly15:39
sean-k-mooneyi wrote the original kolla biforst container15:39
MarkMielkecool15:40
sean-k-mooneyi really wanted to see koll ansibel become the default openstack installer but i dont really work on the installer anymore15:40
MarkMielkeI think it will pick up.15:42
sean-k-mooneyif kaobe does then yes15:42
sean-k-mooney*kayobe15:42
MarkMielkeIt's so much simpler.15:43
sean-k-mooneyyep15:43
sean-k-mooneyits simple to debug and extend15:43
sean-k-mooneythe config overrde mechanisum is easy to use15:43
sean-k-mooneyand no puppet/ruby15:43
sean-k-mooneywhich is defintly a win15:43
MarkMielkeRunning Kubernetes on hypervisors seems overly complex to me personally. It's not really the right use case for it.15:43
MarkMielkeIf you were running Docker containers - sure... but virtual machines from within Nova/libvirtd/qemu? I don't think so.15:44
sean-k-mooneythe last thing i was trying to push in kolla before i stope working on it was move to running the contaienr using systemd service file15:44
sean-k-mooneyso that tehre was a determinisitc order to them on host reboot15:44
MarkMielkethe move away from "Docker" may help with that :-)15:45
sean-k-mooneywhat are they moving too15:45
MarkMielkepodman, etc.15:45
sean-k-mooneyah ok15:45
sean-k-mooneyya podman now create the unit file for you15:45
MarkMielkeRHEL 8 pushing that hard15:45
sean-k-mooneyin the lates version15:45
MarkMielkedoesn't come with Docker even in Extras. :-)15:45
sean-k-mooneynot as much as you would think15:45
sean-k-mooneywell docker yes15:46
MarkMielkewe didn't move up to RHEL 8 yes - will start to soon - but Docker being gone was a surprise to me15:46
sean-k-mooneybut redhat is not really encouraging use to work upstream in kolla15:46
sean-k-mooneyto move kolla ansible to podman15:46
MarkMielkeright15:46
sean-k-mooneyi was thinking about getting involved again to help with that but people internally didnt care that much so i focused on nova15:47
MarkMielkeonly so much time in day :-)15:47
sean-k-mooneythey didnt disucrage me but suggested i look at getting involved in triplo instead15:48
sean-k-mooneyand i have no interst in that15:48
MarkMielkeat OpenStack conference, I thought it was amusing when they were talking about future of TripleO15:48
MarkMielkeand one of the Kayobe people spoke up "we've already done this"15:48
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MarkMielkeit's fine though - community needs to develop ideas and then discover intersection of common objectives15:49
sean-k-mooneywell i mention trying to adopt kayobe when the topic of simplify triople o came up and it was more or less ignored15:49
sean-k-mooneythere is too much of a sunken cost falacy around triplo15:50
MarkMielkeyeah i see that15:50
MarkMielkebut despite working a bit in parallel and duplication of work15:51
sean-k-mooneythey have a vaild point that we would have to support migarate all existing customer to it15:51
MarkMielkethey're converging15:51
sean-k-mooneybut that seams simpler to solve then simplfying triple015:51
MarkMielkeif TripleO is using containers and Ansible for deployment by the end of it15:51
sean-k-mooneythey will diverge again when triplo moves to k8s15:51
MarkMielkeit's not really that different from Kayobe15:51
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MarkMielkemore superficial than not15:52
MarkMielkejust taking the long way around to get to that point15:52
MarkMielke:-)15:52
sean-k-mooneywell kayobe and kolla-ansible will not move to running the contaienr in k8s15:53
sean-k-mooneyso while the continer may be the same15:53
sean-k-mooneyall the tooling around upgrades and operation will diverge15:53
MarkMielkeyeah, the orchestration around how runc launches will be different15:53
MarkMielkebut fundamentally, it'll be the same technology doing the same thing underneath15:53
MarkMielketwo groups vehemently disagreeing15:54
MarkMielkebut fundamentally agreeing :-)15:54
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MarkMielkeyou can see how I am jaded :-)15:55
MarkMielkei haven't used podman yet much - but the idea that it supports Kubernetes pods,15:56
MarkMielkeis interesting15:56
sean-k-mooneywell it does and it does not15:56
sean-k-mooneyit suport the cncf cri15:56
sean-k-mooneyit also provides cli compatiablity with docker15:57
sean-k-mooneyso you can use it to interact/manage pods but on its own it would do any of the orchstartion fo the pods that k8s does15:58
MarkMielkeprobably with some limitations, it still means that something designer for Kubernetes15:58
MarkMielkecan almost work in stand-alone capacity15:58
sean-k-mooneyfor example without the newst version it wont start the contaner after a host reboot15:58
MarkMielkesystemd :-)15:58
sean-k-mooneythe newest version will creat systemd files for you to implement docker restart policies15:58
sean-k-mooneybefore that you had to do it by hand15:58
MarkMielkeas you mentioned earlier -15:59
MarkMielkei like the systemd model of managing containers15:59
MarkMielkevs the brainless auto-restart15:59
sean-k-mooneywhere as the k8s kubelet would have done that via the podsepc15:59
MarkMielkedependency management, as well as notification of when an application is up and healthy15:59
sean-k-mooneyso its more a tool for defineing pods on a local system without any of the orchetration16:00
MarkMielkeprimarily for development stand-alone vs running in a production cluster with overhead16:00
MarkMielkeright?16:00
sean-k-mooneykind of but it can be used as a building block for you orchelstartion16:00
sean-k-mooneyit does support heatbeat continer for examle16:01
sean-k-mooneybut no direct graphs fo dependce16:01
sean-k-mooneythat said systemd supports that so who know what will happnen16:01
MarkMielkethat's what i would mostly use systemd for16:01
sean-k-mooneyya you are just missing the syntax in podman to express the depences16:01
sean-k-mooneythen rely on the before/after freatuers in systemd or targets16:02
sean-k-mooneyto tie it all toghter16:02
MarkMielketoday we cheat a bit... /etc/systemd/system/docker.conf.d/ lists dependencies, but they all dependencies for all contianers16:02
MarkMielkeso delay docker start until pre-requisites are met16:02
MarkMielkeit's not great for inter-container dependencies16:02
MarkMielkei.e. PostgreSQL should be up before Jira16:04
MarkMielkewe mostly rely on PostgreSQL coming up really really fast :-)16:04
MarkMielkeand Jira, in Java, coming up slow16:04
sean-k-mooneywhat i wanted to fix in kolla is that the ovsdb shoudl be up before the ovs-vswtichd starts16:04
MarkMielkedo you containerize those too? or you just mean in general16:05
sean-k-mooneyno ovs is containerised16:05
sean-k-mooneyit runs with net=host16:05
MarkMielkeinteresting - I guess it's fine since the data plane is in kernel16:05
sean-k-mooneynot always16:06
sean-k-mooneythat is what i was trying to fix16:06
sean-k-mooneyif you are using ovs-dpdk where the dataplane is in userspace16:06
sean-k-mooneythe ovsdb need to be started first16:06
MarkMielkeah16:06
sean-k-mooneyso that the vswtihcd can detect that dpdk is enabled when it starts up16:06
MarkMielkeovs-dpdk... that's an interesting one for a related subject...16:07
MarkMielkeit's presumedly faster than kernel, but I also discovered that the Red Hat builds of Docker use seccomp16:07
MarkMielkeand seccomp normally triggers some of the more expensive Spectre mitigations16:08
MarkMielkei think i have that right16:08
MarkMielkedo you disable that?16:08
sean-k-mooneyby default redhat does not tend to disabel security feature16:09
sean-k-mooneyim not sure it would impact dpdk performace it might16:10
sean-k-mooneywhen we mesure something like that as an imparct16:10
sean-k-mooneywe usually docmet how to disable it and let it up to the custoemr16:10
MarkMielkeit disables indirect branch spectulation for the threads :-(16:10
MarkMielkei started changing them to prctl instead of seccomp16:11
sean-k-mooneyif there threat profile allwos it then there is no reas for them to not do it but they need to make that threat assement themselves16:11
MarkMielkebut then I found that Red Hat build of OpenJDK also uses prctl :-)16:11
MarkMielkeso now we often disable it entirely (shocker!)16:11
MarkMielkehehe16:12
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sean-k-mooneymy dev machines uses to have almost all the mitgation disabled at one point16:13
MarkMielkei settled on a config which ends up being similar to RHEL 7.7 ended up setting by default16:13
MarkMielkespectre_v2=retpoline16:13
sean-k-mooneyit got kind fo annoying to have to keep updating my grub config16:13
MarkMielkeok - well i should get a few other things done. Thanks for the chat. I think I'll open that bug with regard to oslo_utils unit tests being left in nova.16:15
sean-k-mooneyo/16:15
MarkMielkeand if it's easy to add test i'll add to oslo_utils, but if too hard, i may add another test or two for nova as separate submission16:15
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sean-k-mooneyralonsoh: its a sunday what are you doing on irc16:17
ralonsohhahahaah and you??16:17
ralonsohsean-k-mooney, I'm trying to fix an small problem16:17
MarkMielkeit's always a small problem16:17
sean-k-mooneyim playing eve online and have it open on another monitor16:17
ralonsohhahahahhaah16:17
MarkMielkethen before you know it16:17
MarkMielkeyour whole weekend is gone on that small problem :-)16:17
ralonsohno no, it's going to be just a simple commit16:18
MarkMielkeso was mine16:18
MarkMielkehaha16:18
MarkMielketwo characters16:18
sean-k-mooneyralonsoh: im also watching the gate to make sure everythin merges16:18
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MarkMielkeCorrection for above conversation... oslo_utils does have tests for units. I missed them because I was looking for qemu-info info sample output and "virtual size". This does exist in Nova. However, there is unit tests for parsing the value portion of the qemu-img info output in oslo_utils, and I can easily add tests here for QEMU 4.1.17:49
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: Claim resources in resource tracker  https://review.opendev.org/67845220:13
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: libvirt: Enable driver discovering PMEM namespaces  https://review.opendev.org/67845321:22
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: libvirt: report VPMEM resources by provider tree  https://review.opendev.org/67845421:36
openstackgerritMerged openstack/nova master: libvirt: Support VM creation with vpmems and vpmems cleanup  https://review.opendev.org/67845521:36
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