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| openstackgerrit | wanghongtao proposed openstack/nova master: Fix the metadata re to match the unicode https://review.openstack.org/536236 | 00:43 |
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| openstackgerrit | tianhui proposed openstack/nova master: Fix bug to api-ref https://review.openstack.org/571375 | 01:59 |
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| openstackgerrit | Yikun Jiang (Kero) proposed openstack/nova master: Fix invalid raise in test_compute_mgr https://review.openstack.org/571610 | 02:25 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/nova stable/queens: libvirt: Skip fetching the virtual size of block devices https://review.openstack.org/571425 | 02:27 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/nova master: libvirt: configure trust mode for vfs https://review.openstack.org/458514 | 04:19 |
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| openstackgerrit | Vishakha Agarwal proposed openstack/python-novaclient master: No requirement of –all-tenants while listing servers https://review.openstack.org/569090 | 04:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Vishakha Agarwal proposed openstack/python-novaclient master: No requirement of –all-tenants while listing servers https://review.openstack.org/569090 | 04:25 |
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| openstackgerrit | Yikun Jiang (Kero) proposed openstack/nova master: Adapt _validate_instance_group_policy to new policy model https://review.openstack.org/571465 | 07:34 |
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| openstackgerrit | Elod Illes proposed openstack/nova stable/pike: placement: Fix HTTP error generation https://review.openstack.org/571218 | 08:23 |
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| openstackgerrit | jichenjc proposed openstack/nova master: z/VM Driver: Initial change set of z/VM driver https://review.openstack.org/523387 | 08:47 |
| openstackgerrit | jichenjc proposed openstack/nova master: z/VM Driver: Spawn and destroy function of z/VM driver https://review.openstack.org/527658 | 08:47 |
| openstackgerrit | jichenjc proposed openstack/nova master: z/VM Driver: add snapshot function https://review.openstack.org/534240 | 08:47 |
| openstackgerrit | jichenjc proposed openstack/nova master: z/VM Driver: add power actions https://review.openstack.org/543340 | 08:47 |
| openstackgerrit | jichenjc proposed openstack/nova master: z/VM Driver: add get console output https://review.openstack.org/543344 | 08:48 |
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| openstackgerrit | jichenjc proposed openstack/nova master: not reraise DiskNotFound if instance is resized https://review.openstack.org/571410 | 09:19 |
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| sahid | jaypipes: hello, if I can ask you, I think we made with matt some good progress with the trsuted-vf feature | 09:26 |
| sahid | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/sriov-trusted-vfs+(status:open+OR+status:merged) | 09:26 |
| sahid | can you have a look when you have a moment | 09:26 |
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| openstackgerrit | Stephen Finucane proposed openstack/nova-specs master: Add 'numa-aware-vswitches' spec https://review.openstack.org/541290 | 09:42 |
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| sahid | jangutter: if you can address the last comment https://review.openstack.org/#/c/570959/ I will +2 your patch so when sean is comming back that will be approved | 09:58 |
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| jangutter | sahid: thanks! I'm happy to whack that. But, check the nova patches out for another wrinkle, it seems this route might only be useful for some very esoteric cases and not be needed after all. | 10:02 |
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| sahid | jangutter: ok will look at that | 10:10 |
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| openstackgerrit | Chen proposed openstack/nova master: WIP https://review.openstack.org/571472 | 11:25 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/nova master: libvirt: add vf_trusted field for network metadata https://review.openstack.org/566343 | 12:12 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/nova master: metadata: add vf_trusted field to device metadata https://review.openstack.org/566344 | 12:16 |
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| mriedem | the trusted vf series just has one remaining patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/458820/ | 12:44 |
| mriedem | and it's pretty simple | 12:45 |
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| mriedem | stephenfin: artom: i've got some questions in the numa-aware vswitch, new ones about live migration support https://review.openstack.org/#/c/541290/ | 13:00 |
| artom | mriedem, dammit, I was hoping I'd get to avoid that massive thing ;) | 13:03 |
| artom | Nah, I'll check it out, see if I can be useful | 13:03 |
| mriedem | stephenfin: i think for any move operation, we'll have to modify the request spec to include the current numa-aware interface information from the instance info cache so the NUMATopologyFilter can pick a proper destination host | 13:04 |
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| stephenfin | mriedem: Yeah, I was planning to just build one of those InstanceNUMANetworks objects from instance info cache | 13:04 |
| mriedem | which kind of makes me wonder, if you can't attach numa-aware interfaces to a running instance, then the instance info_cache should match the original request spec's requested_networks, and then i wonder why we wouldn't persist it for move operations | 13:04 |
| mriedem | dansmith: ^ | 13:05 |
| stephenfin | mriedem: You can attach them - you just won't get NUMA affinity | 13:05 |
| mriedem | are you guys all on happy time red hat meeting fun hour right now? | 13:05 |
| mriedem | stephenfin: ok so if i want to attach new numa-aware instances with affinity, i'd have to do that and then resize my instance to get it to move | 13:05 |
| stephenfin | I mean, I guess we could enforce that if we wanted to but the spec is already too big for its own good. I want to land _something_ :) | 13:06 |
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| stephenfin | mriedem: At present, yes | 13:06 |
| * stephenfin thinks he said "this will be addressed in the future" | 13:06 | |
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| stephenfin | mriedem: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/541290/15/specs/rocky/approved/numa-aware-vswitches.rst@405 | 13:06 |
| stephenfin | giblet: Thanks for the reminder | 13:06 |
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| * giblet lost this week on corporate downstream crazyness | 13:07 | |
| mriedem | finucannot: yeah i know it says that | 13:07 |
| mriedem | finucannot: i know you want to land something, | 13:07 |
| mriedem | but i also don't want to land a gaping hole that we don't fix for 4 years like the existing numa stuff | 13:08 |
| mriedem | so what does the "claim" actually do? | 13:09 |
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| mriedem | since we won't have a claim during live migration | 13:09 |
| finucannot | mriedem: The claim builds the guest's NUMA topology | 13:09 |
| finucannot | For that to happen, I need to have information about the networks attached to the guest | 13:09 |
| finucannot | Far as I can see, for a new instance the info cache is not yet populated | 13:10 |
| finucannot | finucannot: Agreed on not having a gaping hole. The approach artom takes for solving live migration for NUMA should get us this almost for free, I'm guessing | 13:11 |
| finucannot | *mriedem: | 13:11 |
| artom | Passing IntanceNUMATopology as part of live_migrate_data? | 13:11 |
| mriedem | finucannot: so this spec depends on artom's bp for live migration then? | 13:11 |
| finucannot | mriedem: Kind of but not really | 13:12 |
| mriedem | so you guys might want to talk about this.... | 13:13 |
| finucannot | It needs that spec for live migration to work, but so does everything that involves NUMA and CPU pinning | 13:13 |
| mriedem | i'm not familiar enough with artom's spec yet | 13:13 |
| mriedem | right, ok, | 13:13 |
| mriedem | so i think we call that out as a dependency for live migration to work, that's fine, | 13:13 |
| finucannot | Seeing as they're currently very much tied, much to jaypipes chagrin | 13:13 |
| mriedem | the rest could go ahead with that caveat | 13:13 |
| finucannot | ack | 13:13 |
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| giblet | finucannot, mriedem: very similar thing will happen with the bandwidth. We need to regenerate the bandwidth request part of the request spec for all the VM move operations | 13:15 |
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| mriedem | giblet: yup, i think that was called out in your spec | 13:16 |
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| mriedem | finucannot: ok so i left some targeted things to update in your spec, then i think i'm +2 | 13:16 |
| mriedem | i just want to make sure it's written down because it's a lot of churn and w/o the list of work items we're likely to forget something | 13:16 |
| finucannot | Yup, that's fair | 13:16 |
| giblet | mriedem: yes, it was | 13:17 |
| mriedem | giblet: hopefully the internal churn doesn't negatively impact you | 13:17 |
| giblet | mriedem: and now have some TODOs in the currently proposed patches where to do those. I.e. https://review.openstack.org/#/c/567268/9/nova/compute/api.py@4234 | 13:17 |
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| giblet | mriedem: there will be nice rebases I'm sure. But that is life :) | 13:18 |
| mriedem | giblet: request spec tinkering should happen in conductor | 13:18 |
| giblet | mriedem: OK, then 'badly placed TODOs' :) I can push those up in the call chain | 13:18 |
| leakypipes | finucannot: well remembered. | 13:18 |
| giblet | mriedem: thanks for the comments in that bwm patch about my TODOs. Thanks for the pointer like 'reset_request_destinations' | 13:23 |
| mriedem | giblet: i might have gotten that method name wrong | 13:23 |
| giblet | mriedem: I can apply AI to find the right one :) | 13:23 |
| mriedem | reset_forced_destinations | 13:23 |
| giblet | mriedem: ty | 13:24 |
| mriedem | ha | 13:24 |
| mriedem | is that your new job now? AI master? | 13:24 |
| mriedem | train the machine to write your bw-aware series | 13:24 |
| giblet | mriedem: it is more like a wanabe hobby | 13:24 |
| mriedem | well at least you have a hobby | 13:24 |
| giblet | mriedem: but it would be so easy just to push it to an AI | 13:24 |
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| bauzas | warning, I'm changing my Friday nick | 13:25 |
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| PapaOurs | leakypipes: thanks for having reviewed https://review.openstack.org/#/c/557065/ | 13:25 |
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| PapaOurs | leakypipes: as far as I understand, your strong -1 is related to the fact it's about traits and nvidia | 13:26 |
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| PapaOurs | leakypipes: but look at https://github.com/intel/gvt-linux/wiki/GVTg_Setup_Guide#51-check-mdev-module-kvmgt-only | 13:27 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: mdev's supported_types is a kernel's VFIO feature | 13:27 |
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| sususuryashines | hansmoleman: you finally got your friday nick!? :D | 13:27 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: so even if only nvidia uses it, why the spec should be about nvidia ? | 13:27 |
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| openstackgerrit | Stephen Finucane proposed openstack/nova-specs master: Add 'numa-aware-vswitches' spec https://review.openstack.org/541290 | 13:31 |
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| fried_rice | What's ironic's nova CI called? | 13:33 |
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| leakypipes | PapaOurs: that mdev_supported_types is nothing more than a reference to NVIDIA's product names. | 13:34 |
| sususuryashines | dansmith, hansmoleman: would like your opinion on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/560042/ whenever you have the time. | 13:34 |
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| dansmith | this sounds like a job for... | 13:35 |
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| jroll | fried_rice: something-ironic-something :P | 13:35 |
| jroll | ironic-tempest-dsvm-ipa-wholedisk-bios-agent_ipmitool-tinyipa | 13:36 |
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| fried_rice | oh, there it is. | 13:36 |
| fried_rice | thanks jroll | 13:36 |
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| jroll | np | 13:36 |
| MurderTheLeafBlo | damn restrictions on nick length. | 13:36 |
| jroll | heh | 13:36 |
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| fried_rice | leakypipes: DieLeafBlowerDie ought to fit | 13:37 |
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| leakypipes | fried_rice: oooh, nice. | 13:37 |
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| hansmoleman | sususuryashines: only temporary | 13:40 |
| hansmoleman | i'm actually allergic to fun | 13:40 |
| openstackgerrit | Tsuyoshi Nagata proposed openstack/nova master: nova improvement of maximum attach volumes more than 26 vols https://review.openstack.org/567472 | 13:40 |
| sususuryashines | hansmoleman: :P | 13:41 |
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| hansmoleman | finucannot: thanks, +2 | 13:42 |
| hansmoleman | superdan: +2 on finucannot's numa-aware vswitch spec now https://review.openstack.org/#/c/541290/ | 13:43 |
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| finucannot | hansmoleman: Thanks, appreciate it | 13:43 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: "you make sure the "mdev_supported_types" node with differenct vgpu type existed(The "V#ID" represent the corresponding platform, "V4" means it is "Broadwell" platform, "V5" means it is "Skylake" or "Kabylake" platform)" | 13:45 |
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| PapaOurs | leakypipes: unless I'm misunderstanding the above, but it's related to an Intel thing, right? | 13:45 |
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| PapaOurs | leakypipes: and yet again, it's a VFIO abstraction | 13:46 |
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| PapaOurs | leakypipes: why should we call it 'nvidia' even if the nvidia folks provided it ? | 13:47 |
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| PapaOurs | it's like if we would say that a libvirt feature supported by the Nova API is only a 'libvirt' one | 13:47 |
| PapaOurs | it could be a Xen or VMWare feature if the virt driver supports it | 13:47 |
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| leakypipes | PapaOurs: they *are* the libvirt ones. | 13:48 |
| leakypipes | PapaOurs: I'm not saying we should be leaking vendor details out of the user-facing API. I'm just saying when referring to "vGPU types", we should be honest about it and say what we mean, which is "the NVIDIA vendor model for this NVIDIA pGPU". | 13:49 |
| hansmoleman | is cdent out this week? | 13:49 |
| leakypipes | hansmoleman: I'm not sure. I've seen him on ML off and on. not much on IRC. | 13:49 |
| figleaf | hansmoleman: he's at the vmware mother ship, so I'm sure his attention is spread thin | 13:49 |
| hansmoleman | ah ok | 13:50 |
| hansmoleman | gonna setup a 100 node fake devstack env for some scheduler perf testing, i knew he did something like this before | 13:50 |
| leakypipes | PapaOurs: btw, where is Bauwser? :) | 13:51 |
| leakypipes | hansmoleman: placecat. | 13:51 |
| hansmoleman | i don't need to test placement | 13:51 |
| leakypipes | hansmoleman: https://github.com/cdent/placecat/ maybe what you were thinking? | 13:51 |
| fried_rice | hansmoleman: He has some fairly detailed step-by-step on his blog. Let me know if you want me to dig that up. | 13:51 |
| hansmoleman | fried_rice: yeah i've seen that one before, i think i've got this, it's basically (1) fake virt driver (2) noop quota and (3) NUMBER_FAKE_NOVA_COMPUTE=x | 13:52 |
| hansmoleman | i'm going to try and test before and after https://review.openstack.org/#/c/569247/ | 13:52 |
| hansmoleman | with 100 nodes, 1000 instances, 10 per node | 13:52 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: but again, looks like Intel have multiple types, where each of them about an Intel platform | 13:53 |
| leakypipes | PapaOurs: show me. everything I see in their docs refers to NVIDIA vGPU types. | 13:53 |
| superdan | hansmoleman: finucannot I still have questions in there, maybe hansmoleman can clear it up for me if he gets it and I'm just slow | 13:53 |
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| leakypipes | PapaOurs: and GVT-g, GVT-d, GVT-s are not different vGPU typoes. | 13:54 |
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| PapaOurs | leakypipes: tbh, I need to get an Intel GVT-g hardware | 13:54 |
| ralphlauren | Look up his real name | 13:54 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: GVT-g is for vGPUs | 13:54 |
| PapaOurs | GVT-d and GVT-s are different features | 13:54 |
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| leakypipes | PapaOurs: yes, I know. and I don't see any evidence that they use vGPU types for aniything other than referencing NVIDIA's vendor model names. | 13:54 |
| PapaOurs | and Intel GVT-g for KVM is also called KVMGT | 13:54 |
| leakypipes | yes, I know that. | 13:55 |
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| PapaOurs | leakypipes: you've seen my link ? https://github.com/intel/gvt-linux/wiki/GVTg_Setup_Guide#51-check-mdev-module-kvmgt-only | 13:55 |
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| leakypipes | PapaOurs: yes. | 13:56 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jan Gutter proposed openstack/os-vif master: Add multiqueue port profile for VIFGeneric https://review.openstack.org/570959 | 13:56 |
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| PapaOurs | PapaOurs: so, looks like to me there are multiple types for each pGPU | 13:57 |
| PapaOurs | even for an Intel's one | 13:57 |
| leakypipes | 915-GVTg_V5_4 is a driver. | 13:57 |
| PapaOurs | because when creating the mdev, you need to tell which type to use | 13:57 |
| leakypipes | It's Not A Tumor! | 13:57 |
| openstackgerrit | Jan Gutter proposed openstack/nova master: Use vif.vif_name in _set_config_VIFGeneric https://review.openstack.org/571461 | 13:57 |
| openstackgerrit | Jan Gutter proposed openstack/nova master: Convert vrouter legacy plugging to os-vif https://review.openstack.org/571325 | 13:57 |
| openstackgerrit | Jan Gutter proposed openstack/nova master: Pass virtio multiqueue info to os-vif plugins https://review.openstack.org/571462 | 13:57 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: i915-GVTg_V5_1 is one type, i915-GVTg_V5_2 is another type | 13:58 |
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| leakypipes | PapaOurs: it isn't though... | 13:59 |
| PapaOurs | from a VFIO arch, it is | 13:59 |
| leakypipes | PapaOurs: they are just trying to pidgeonhole their driver info into the NVIDIA mdev framework :( | 13:59 |
| PapaOurs | LOL | 13:59 |
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| superdan | mdev is a linux kernel abstraction, right? | 14:00 |
| leakypipes | it's all a load of hardware-specific bullshit, IMHO. | 14:00 |
| leakypipes | superdan: some call it that. | 14:00 |
| * superdan eyerolls | 14:00 | |
| * leakypipes eyerolls back | 14:00 | |
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| PapaOurs | leakypipes: I mean, I understand your point | 14:01 |
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| PapaOurs | I'm not saying vendors don't do bullshit | 14:01 |
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| PapaOurs | (heh, use of a double negative /o\) | 14:01 |
| PapaOurs | but, the fact is, for the good or worst, they use the VFIO mdev abstraction exactly like nvidia does | 14:02 |
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| leakypipes | PapaOurs: "better or worse" :) | 14:02 |
| openstackgerrit | Andrey Volkov proposed openstack/nova master: Test Compute API in multiple cells https://review.openstack.org/547273 | 14:03 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: I'm now called PapaOurs, it's making clear that I'm French now :p | 14:03 |
| leakypipes | well, I can agree with you on at least one thing, PapaOurs... | 14:03 |
| cfriesen | PapaOors: I thought AMD used SRIOV | 14:03 |
| leakypipes | PapaOurs: it certainly would be nice to afford to play with some of these things in real life. | 14:04 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: that's in my todo list :) | 14:04 |
| leakypipes | cfriesen: oh, hai Chris. welcome to our own private hell. | 14:04 |
| PapaOurs | cfriesen: excellent point | 14:05 |
| PapaOurs | cfriesen: if an hardware vendor doesn't use the VFIO mdev interface with its kernel driver, then sure, vGPUs aren't supported | 14:05 |
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| PapaOurs | cfriesen: they can use a different arch, like SR-IOV, but then it's very different | 14:06 |
| leakypipes | I'm a mushroom cloud layin' motherf**ker. | 14:06 |
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| * elbragstad hands leakypipes the "quote of the day" award :) | 14:07 | |
| cfriesen | I've been following the vGPU stuff only casually, but it sure looks like a pain. :) | 14:07 |
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| leakypipes | elbragstad: just sayin' Vincent, I'm Superfly TNT. | 14:10 |
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| giblet | fried_rice: I've fixed as much as I can from your comments in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/569417 | 14:11 |
| PapaOurs | cfriesen: the real question is, why a separate vendor doesn't use the kernel interface for that ? | 14:11 |
| leakypipes | cfriesen: here's the thing... it actually *wouldn't* be a pain, IMHO, if we just called a spade a spade and carved out a vendor-specific part of the codebase for Intel and NVIDIA to dump their code into and then we required them to simply hand us a library whose sole purpose was to contain a dict, keyed by their product IDs, containing a list of standardized capabilitiies for each of their products. | 14:11 |
| leakypipes | cfriesen: oh, and have them write meaningful, understandable documentation for their products *before* releasing them. | 14:12 |
| fried_rice | giblet: ack | 14:12 |
| hansmoleman | superdan: good questions, i dropped my +2 and left some replies, finucannot fyi | 14:12 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: that was your second concern in my spec, and we could somehow *do* that, but looks to me that's just going to be a hecking thing to update | 14:12 |
| finucannot | hansmoleman: (y) | 14:12 |
| leakypipes | PapaOurs: "heck of a thing"? :) | 14:12 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: I can imagine a shit number of nvidia folks coming by nova and asking us to merge their change just for updating that module | 14:13 |
| * jrollinhatin prefers hecking | 14:13 | |
| leakypipes | hehe | 14:13 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: we could do a lib tho | 14:13 |
| PapaOurs | but the problem remains | 14:13 |
| leakypipes | PapaOurs: I hope you know I'm just "pulling your chain" on your English phrases. :) | 14:13 |
| leakypipes | it's Friday after all. | 14:13 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: and yeah, I don't disagree with you on the poor abstraction that only relies on strings that are defined by the vendor, hence not versioned | 14:13 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: I don't take any offense here, no worries ;) | 14:14 |
| PapaOurs | and again, I now officially claim the French verbage | 14:14 |
| leakypipes | :) | 14:14 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: so, yeah, I can't argue with you on the fact types are just poorly defined by vendors | 14:15 |
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| PapaOurs | the best of that is that's a mandate for keeping those type names identical across releases | 14:15 |
| PapaOurs | so, say, if nvidia wants to rename nvidia-35 type name into something like "M60-8G-MY_SUPER-TYPE", they would be able | 14:16 |
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| leakypipes | PapaOurs: well, since they only started doing any of this back in like April last year, we'll just have to wait and see if they completely change the interface here in the next year or so. My bet is, of course they will. | 14:16 |
| PapaOurs | because the kernel directly takes the names straight for the kernel module... | 14:16 |
| PapaOurs | froù | 14:16 |
| PapaOurs | from* | 14:16 |
| leakypipes | I liked frou better. | 14:16 |
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| PapaOurs | so, yeah, you can see me sometimes ranting on that btw. | 14:17 |
| PapaOurs | but back to the spec, the only abstraction we have is that poorly-defined-tho-mandatory-and-alone interface that we call 'mdev_supported_types' | 14:17 |
| PapaOurs | good luck with that | 14:17 |
| leakypipes | "standardized pointer to randomness". | 14:18 |
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| * leakypipes is reminded of hansmoleman's random bag of dicts. | 14:19 | |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: that quote is awesome | 14:19 |
| fried_rice | giblet: +1, nice. | 14:19 |
| giblet | fried_rice: thanks | 14:19 |
| ralphlauren | Where did I see a hard_dict? | 14:19 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: and now, you guess why QEMU folks push back the nvidia implementation for live migration | 14:20 |
| ralphlauren | I definitely saw a hard_dict somewhere | 14:20 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: b/c nvidia just wants to live migrate based on foobar capabilities they solely define and expose | 14:20 |
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| PapaOurs | anyway, I need to drop | 14:22 |
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| hansmoleman | leakypipes: dan akroyd had a bag-o-glass, i've got a bag-o-dicts | 14:30 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/nova master: network: update pci request spec to handle trusted tags https://review.openstack.org/458820 | 14:32 |
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| openstackgerrit | Tsuyoshi Nagata proposed openstack/nova master: nova improvement of maximum attach volumes more than 26 vols https://review.openstack.org/567472 | 14:56 |
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| PapaOurs | leakypipes: hmmm, so I looked at some GVT-g links and that one looks good https://01.org/igvt-g/blogs/wangbo85/2017/gvt-g-new-architecture-introduction-update | 15:05 |
| PapaOurs | they say they still use "mdev_supported_types" | 15:05 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: so, I'll modify my spec for saying which hardware vendors support mdevs | 15:06 |
| hansmoleman | woot another one bites the dust https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/sriov-trusted-vfs | 15:06 |
| PapaOurs | ie. Intel and Nvidia | 15:06 |
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| fried_rice | Do "we" have any interest in, or strong objections to, allowing unicode characters in metadata/extra_specs keys? | 15:07 |
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| fried_rice | hansmoleman, superdan: ^ ? | 15:12 |
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| leakypipes | fried_rice: 💩 | 15:13 |
| superdan | I thought we already said no unicode there, | 15:13 |
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| superdan | but allowed it in things like name and tag | 15:13 |
| fried_rice | superdan: Okay, where did we say that? | 15:13 |
| superdan | long ago | 15:13 |
| superdan | during the post-v3 API strictification | 15:14 |
| superdan | aka "the nova dark ages" | 15:14 |
| fried_rice | superdan: I just reviewed https://review.openstack.org/#/c/536236/ (bug 1737711). It's not right atm, but if we're never going to allow it, I'd like to be able to shut it down so they don't go off and do a bunch of work to get it right. | 15:15 |
| openstack | bug 1737711 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "nova boot failed when use the chinese metadata key and value" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1737711 - Assigned to wanghongtao (hongtao.wang) | 15:15 |
| fried_rice | superdan: But to get it shut down, I'd like to be able to point to something that says we don't want it, and ideally, why. | 15:15 |
| superdan | fried_rice: ask hansmoleman I bet he remembers more (correctly) than I do | 15:15 |
| superdan | or maybe leakypipes does | 15:15 |
| superdan | hence my "I thought" hedging | 15:16 |
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| leakypipes | superdan: unfortunately, I don't remember much about that decision either, sorry :( | 15:18 |
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| hansmoleman | i don't either | 15:20 |
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| hansmoleman | sdague likely might, but | 15:20 |
| superdan | yeah | 15:21 |
| hansmoleman | or alex or ken'ichi | 15:21 |
| hansmoleman | or gmann | 15:21 |
| superdan | am I remembering correctly that we made a point of not allowing unicode there though? | 15:21 |
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| openstackgerrit | Balazs Gibizer proposed openstack/nova master: Add bandwidth related standard resource classes https://review.openstack.org/570847 | 15:22 |
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| openstackgerrit | Balazs Gibizer proposed openstack/nova master: Transfer port.resource_request to the scheduler https://review.openstack.org/567268 | 15:22 |
| openstackgerrit | Balazs Gibizer proposed openstack/nova master: Send resource allocations in the port binding https://review.openstack.org/569459 | 15:22 |
| superdan | or do ya'll not remember one way or the other? | 15:22 |
| hansmoleman | i don't really remember | 15:23 |
| hansmoleman | could have been related to how we stored that stuff in the db, but not sure | 15:23 |
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| hansmoleman | i'm not sure why we'd have unicode in flavor extra specs, | 15:24 |
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| hansmoleman | those are system-defined things that the code needs to understand | 15:24 |
| hansmoleman | user metadata is fuzzy | 15:24 |
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| hansmoleman | auggy had a spec related to this also i think... | 15:25 |
| hansmoleman | maybe that was just case sensitivity in the db | 15:25 |
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| hansmoleman | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/350843/ | 15:26 |
| hansmoleman | that was case, not unicode | 15:26 |
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| hansmoleman | smcginnis: does cinder allow unicode in volume type extra specs? | 15:26 |
| hansmoleman | or volume metadata? | 15:27 |
| smcginnis | hansmoleman: Hmm, I believe the values but not the keys that are set in the extra specs. | 15:27 |
| smcginnis | hansmoleman: And I believe it is fine the the volume metadata. | 15:27 |
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| hansmoleman | are you sure? https://github.com/openstack/cinder/blob/master/cinder/api/validation/parameter_types.py#L147 | 15:29 |
| hansmoleman | doesn't look like it does | 15:29 |
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| hansmoleman | https://github.com/openstack/cinder/blob/master/cinder/api/schemas/volume_metadata.py#L35 | 15:29 |
| fried_rice | hansmoleman: The *key* doesn't, but the *value* does. | 15:29 |
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| hansmoleman | oh right yeah | 15:30 |
| hansmoleman | just a 255 character string | 15:30 |
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| fried_rice | okay, so cinder is using the same regex as nova for the key. | 15:30 |
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| fried_rice | I don't have a sense of how these things get sprayed around in a real deploy. Does this mean that we can't have one of those regexes be a superset of the other, because chars outside the smaller set would then break when they cross that boundary? | 15:31 |
| hansmoleman | for extra specs, i would ask which specific flavor extra specs do they need unicode values | 15:31 |
| hansmoleman | or is it just out of tree enablement | 15:31 |
| hansmoleman | if it's the latter, then i care much less about this | 15:31 |
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| jgwentworth | fwiw I don't remember any discussion about unicode metadata keys | 15:32 |
| openstackgerrit | Artom Lifshitz proposed openstack/nova master: Refactor _build_device_metadata https://review.openstack.org/533804 | 15:32 |
| openstackgerrit | Artom Lifshitz proposed openstack/nova master: Consider hostdev devices when building metadata https://review.openstack.org/533805 | 15:32 |
| superdan | for extra_specs I think the case to be made is super weak regardless of what they way | 15:33 |
| ralphlauren | finucannot, ^^^ if you want to re-review | 15:33 |
| superdan | for metadata I can imagine more realistic scenarios | 15:33 |
| jgwentworth | it makes sense to me that someone might want that, to be able to set keys/names in their own language | 15:34 |
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| jgwentworth | but yeah, not sure if there's some other gotcha that we'd hit somewhere by changing it to allow unicode | 15:34 |
| fried_rice | superdan: The bug isn't real specific about why they want it. But jgwentworth yeah, that. | 15:34 |
| superdan | not sure how we signal it appropriately either.. a microversion will be frustrating as older ones would have to just omit pairs that use unicode | 15:35 |
| hansmoleman | fried_rice: likely because they have out of tree code that's busted | 15:35 |
| superdan | yup | 15:35 |
| hansmoleman | so i'd nack until they can give specifics | 15:35 |
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| fried_rice | Roger wilco. | 15:36 |
| fried_rice | thanks guys | 15:36 |
| hansmoleman | i'd be willing to bet Kevin_Zheng knows if we (huawei) have a need for this | 15:37 |
| hansmoleman | like, maybe i need to get my chinese unicode name passed through user metadata to config drive for something running in the image | 15:37 |
| hansmoleman | to register with some internal system | 15:37 |
| hansmoleman | idk | 15:37 |
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| PapaOurs | silly question but... does cloud-init support unicode ? | 15:39 |
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| hansmoleman | https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/search.html?q=unicode&check_keywords=yes&area=default | 15:42 |
| hansmoleman | the answer is, shrug | 15:42 |
| fried_rice | Marked Incomplete asking for details: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1737711 | 15:43 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1737711 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "nova boot failed when use the chinese metadata key and value" [Undecided,Incomplete] - Assigned to wanghongtao (hongtao.wang) | 15:43 |
| SpamapS | PapaOurs: it should, if it doesn't that's a bug. | 15:43 |
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| openstackgerrit | Matt Riedemann proposed openstack/nova master: Restrict CONF.quota.driver to DB and noop quota drivers https://review.openstack.org/410996 | 15:44 |
| hansmoleman | finucannot: i made that release note update you wanted ^ if you want to just fast approve | 15:45 |
| finucannot | hansmoleman: Done and done | 15:46 |
| hansmoleman | thanks | 15:46 |
| mnaser | so wild Friday cells v2 question: how much does latency affect operations overall? | 15:46 |
| superdan | mnaser: latency to the cell db? no more or less than with one cell | 15:47 |
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| mnaser | superdan: well, say you have your api in NA and a cell in .. say.. thailand. | 15:47 |
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| superdan | mnaser: that's probably not the best plan | 15:48 |
| mnaser | (nfv use case, and company has world wide presence, so i suggested 4 regions with a single cell split geographically) | 15:48 |
| mnaser | but i was thrown "cells v2" at me | 15:48 |
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| SpamapS | mnaser: you'll always get the latency of the slowest round trip from api->cellbits .. so it will suffer as much as your latency varies | 15:48 |
| jgwentworth | mnaser: the api connects directly to cell databases, so that scenario would be slow | 15:48 |
| superdan | mnaser: if unified control plane is what you care about the most, then... | 15:48 |
| superdan | SpamapS: that's not true | 15:48 |
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| mnaser | so the thing is, api operations isn't a big deal for them, but i don't know how much slower they'd be | 15:49 |
| jgwentworth | superdan: I think he means for a scatter-gather, yeah? | 15:49 |
| mnaser | aka if the value of having a unified control plane is enough to take that performance hit | 15:49 |
| SpamapS | Well, worst latency that has instances in the project you're listing I suppose | 15:49 |
| superdan | SpamapS: if you spread things evenly across cells then it will, but if you have a tenant per cell (as one example) then you'll get normal performance if you're not in one of theother cells | 15:49 |
| superdan | jgwentworth: yes | 15:50 |
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| superdan | mnaser: right, so relatively static workload, they just want a unified view of it, even if operations take a while, because they're infrequentish? | 15:50 |
| SpamapS | I didn't mean to say all operations will suffer that much | 15:50 |
| mnaser | superdan: according to them, correct | 15:50 |
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| superdan | mnaser: yeah, so if that's the preference, that's cool. we're not as good as we should be on tolerating faults in the remote links right now, | 15:51 |
| superdan | mnaser: which means you're increasing your chances for things not working if one link is down, but that's on the books to improve | 15:51 |
| mnaser | i guess that's for them to understand as a limitation if we do take this path | 15:52 |
| mnaser | maybe good feedback to bring back :p | 15:52 |
| superdan | at least the story is on the path to improve, but yeah | 15:52 |
| mnaser | i'm suggesting 4 regions instead (na-east, na-west, europe, asia).. sure its not a unified control plane but still a lot better in terms of surprises we'll run into | 15:52 |
| superdan | yep, that's a better approach if they can tolerate it | 15:53 |
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| hansmoleman | there are projects meant to abstract the multi-region thing https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Kingbird | 15:54 |
| * mnaser is still waiting for fiber to be setup to get playing with cells v2 | 15:54 | |
| hansmoleman | but no idea how good those are | 15:54 |
| SpamapS | mnaser: those are the 4 regions we have, and we do not have a unified control plane. It's nice that they're isolated from eachother. | 15:54 |
| mnaser | yeah i've heard of kingbird before but it's a bit scary as a concept :p | 15:54 |
| SpamapS | The only thing they share is LDAP. | 15:54 |
| mnaser | yeah, i was thinking share a single keystone, multiple regions in the catalog | 15:55 |
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| mnaser | if this works out, hopefully we can share the story, what they're doing with nova is really, really cool. | 15:55 |
| hansmoleman | that would be great | 15:56 |
| jgwentworth | bpoulos: just fyi cert validation is back in a review runway, so be on the lookout for reviews https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/nova-runways-rocky | 15:56 |
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| mnaser | jgwentworth: superdan SpamapS thanks for the input | 15:58 |
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| openstackgerrit | Lee Yarwood proposed openstack/nova stable/ocata: libvirt: handle DiskNotFound during update_available_resource https://review.openstack.org/571432 | 16:02 |
| openstackgerrit | Lee Yarwood proposed openstack/nova stable/ocata: libvirt: Skip fetching the virtual size of block devices https://review.openstack.org/571433 | 16:02 |
| superdan | mnaser: since you're around, and since you do upgrades a lot, let me ask... | 16:03 |
| mnaser | i'm always around :p what's up? | 16:04 |
| superdan | mnaser: when you do an upgrade from say pike to queens, do you move everything off of every compute node before you do anything to that node, or do you just stop compute services, upgrade packages, and then re-start services? | 16:04 |
| mnaser | we have the ability to live migrate everything because of ceph, but i've never needed to do that, my thought process is -- services are control plane and they don't affect vms | 16:04 |
| mnaser | so it's always been in place upgrades | 16:05 |
| superdan | mnaser: right okay, that's what I'd expect | 16:05 |
| jgwentworth | it was in place upgrades when I was at yahoo too | 16:05 |
| mnaser | superdan: and that's also a lot of what 99% of deployment tools do as well, afaik | 16:05 |
| superdan | mnaser: if we forced you to migrate every instance in your cloud to roll to rocky, that would be a big deal right? | 16:06 |
| superdan | jgwentworth: yeah, I think it's the only case for very large clouds because it's not feasible to move everything, so that's good data | 16:06 |
| superdan | pretty sure I can say RAX didn't either | 16:06 |
| jgwentworth | yep, that | 16:06 |
| mnaser | superdan: uh, very big, and id hope its <blink> bright red in the release notes | 16:07 |
| mnaser | and also the problem is that it's not possible for some other users which don't have the infrastructure to do migrations | 16:07 |
| hansmoleman | superdan: i want to say huawei public cloud does a lot of live migrations, but Kevin_Zheng would know better than me on their upgrade strategy | 16:07 |
| jgwentworth | yeah, I think penick would have a problem with that too | 16:07 |
| superdan | mnaser: what about when you need to patch hypervisors or kernels? you do full slide puzzle to prevent any instance downtime? | 16:07 |
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| mnaser | yes, hypervisor and kernel patching (as well as ceph for customers who we do hyperconverged deployments) all get emptied out first | 16:08 |
| mnaser | reasoning is: hypervisor and kernel touches something that affects the actual running vm, nova-compute does not | 16:08 |
| superdan | mnaser: okay, you never schedule downtime per instance? my cloud provider does it that way | 16:08 |
| mnaser | nope, since we have ceph everywhere, live migrations are easy and function extremely well | 16:08 |
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| mnaser | 10g network + ceph = no problems | 16:09 |
| superdan | mnaser: yeah, so what if you didn't have that? I know it's a bit theoretical but, | 16:09 |
| superdan | what if you had to transfer the entire disk and memory across the network for every migration? | 16:09 |
| hansmoleman | we know that would kill NTT.. | 16:09 |
| hansmoleman | at least | 16:09 |
| superdan | would that change the calculus? | 16:09 |
| mnaser | yeah, big time, it would make the upgrade a huge pain | 16:10 |
| superdan | ack, okay thanks | 16:10 |
| mnaser | especially in a public cloud, you have to coordinate across so many customers.. | 16:10 |
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| hansmoleman | is there something specifically up for review or being debated that would require us to move all instances to migrate to rocky? | 16:10 |
| superdan | yeah, the NRP allocation conversion thread | 16:10 |
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| hansmoleman | ok i figured | 16:11 |
| hansmoleman | i've been blissfully ignorant on that so far | 16:11 |
| mnaser | ^^ me too | 16:11 |
| superdan | I don't think forcing operators to migrate all instances to convert their allocations to nested is reasonable | 16:11 |
| mnaser | because i don't particularly understand it that much :) | 16:11 |
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| mnaser | but maybe i should chime in, because i don't know all that much about the whole story | 16:11 |
| SpamapS | We have 20gbit networking for migrations, and we're not ceph based. We aren't going to do a full migration for kernel/kvm updates, we'll schedule downtime. Reboot time is about 8 minutes. | 16:11 |
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| SpamapS | We do AZ's, and make sure to complete one AZ before doing the next. | 16:12 |
| superdan | SpamapS: ah sweet, that's a data point I was looking for | 16:12 |
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| superdan | my cloud provider does the same | 16:12 |
| superdan | basically tells me that my instances will reboot on X at Y hour, downtime is minutes | 16:12 |
| mnaser | i think in subjects like this, it would be helpful if operators can get a much more simple question like the one superdan asked rather than having to understand whats going on with nested resource providers | 16:12 |
| superdan | and lets me do it early if I want | 16:12 |
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| jgwentworth | my cloud provider does that too | 16:12 |
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| hansmoleman | can't we have an allocation transformer tool or something for NRP? | 16:13 |
| superdan | mnaser: right, knowing if you're affected by the NRP change, or how, is also something I don't want to mix into the upgrade decision for them either | 16:13 |
| SpamapS | And when people are sad because their one pet VM was down for 10 minutes causing their service to be down, we definitely pat them on the back and say "there there". https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/glee/images/7/7a/Sheldon-leonard-there-there.gif/revision/latest?cb=20140908045609 | 16:13 |
| superdan | hansmoleman: that's what I'm saying we owe to the users | 16:13 |
| superdan | SpamapS: ++ | 16:13 |
| * penick perks up | 16:13 | |
| superdan | oh shit | 16:13 |
| hansmoleman | nova-manage placement heal_allocations --fix-nrp | 16:13 |
| superdan | you woke the bear | 16:13 |
| hansmoleman | --easy-button | 16:14 |
| superdan | hansmoleman: unfortunately, we can't really do it completely outside with a tool I think, because we need info from the compute node | 16:14 |
| SpamapS | superdan: the "lets me do it early" is interesting. So you're saying that if you hard reboot your instance, you don't get a downtime during the window? | 16:14 |
| hansmoleman | superdan: maybe on restart of the compute service then? like we did for ironic instance flavors? | 16:14 |
| superdan | SpamapS: I can opt to take the downtime early, which is just them (cold) migrating me to another node that is already fixed, but on my schedule instead of theirs, yeah | 16:15 |
| hansmoleman | and we'll be doing for legacy bdm attachments | 16:15 |
| SpamapS | AH | 16:15 |
| superdan | hansmoleman: right, that's what I think we need to do | 16:15 |
| SpamapS | that's neat | 16:15 |
| SpamapS | I think I'm going to put that on our todo list. | 16:15 |
| superdan | SpamapS: sometimes I opt fo that so I can check the health ofmy pet immediately, and sometimes I don't care, depending on which instance it is | 16:15 |
| jgwentworth | superdan, hansmoleman: ++ cause that also works with FFU | 16:15 |
| hansmoleman | well, | 16:15 |
| superdan | jgwentworth: well, actually it doesn't | 16:15 |
| hansmoleman | right | 16:16 |
| hansmoleman | there was that big stink about pci stuff in one of the upgrades | 16:16 |
| mnaser | ok so really silly could a rocky nova-compute check if it's running for the first time and do the migrations? | 16:16 |
| superdan | jgwentworth: we have to provide them a way to do it outside too | 16:16 |
| superdan | hansmoleman: right | 16:16 |
| superdan | mnaser: yes | 16:16 |
| jgwentworth | oh, right... depending on where the startup code is during the fast-forward. I see | 16:16 |
| hansmoleman | which is why there was a migration CLI for the ironic flavor stuff as well | 16:16 |
| openstackgerrit | Matt Riedemann proposed openstack/nova master: Trim the fat on HostState.instances https://review.openstack.org/569247 | 16:17 |
| jgwentworth | yeah. as long as there's a way we can, just worried about stuff like the PCI thing that required a pause in a fast forward | 16:17 |
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| bpoulos | jgwentworth: thank you for the heads up! I'll keep my eye on the cert validation patches | 16:19 |
| hansmoleman | sob, oom with the fake virt driver in devstack after 26 computes out of 100 | 16:20 |
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| jgwentworth | bpoulos: awesome, thanks | 16:20 |
| mnaser | well it could be an upgrade note where "if you're doing ffu, run this nova-manage thing, if you're doing a normal upgrade, nova will fix things on start" | 16:20 |
| jgwentworth | yeah, it could be that (and is how we've done previous things). provide a way to do an offline batch migration | 16:21 |
| superdan | mnaser: we _have_ to provide that yeah | 16:22 |
| jgwentworth | being able to do offline batch is useful in other ways too, for example the flavor migration from (was it kilo?) where instead of having flavors migrated on-the-fly while things are running, an operator could choose to do them in a batch via nova-manage during off peak time | 16:23 |
| superdan | mnaser: what I want to avoid is you having to do N manual conversions for N compute nodes, when you're not FFUing and upgrading in place | 16:23 |
| superdan | jgwentworth: yeah that was much easier because it didn't require knowledge of resource topologies | 16:23 |
| * jgwentworth nods | 16:23 | |
| mnaser | superdan: well, maybe i'm over simplifying things but if there is some function of fix_nested_resource_providers() and that same one can either be called from nova-manage or on start up | 16:23 |
| superdan | mnaser: yeah, totes, I'm saying we should do it automatically if we can, fall back to manual if you are FFUing or want to do it while stuff is offline | 16:24 |
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| mnaser | the reason i like it being done online is that it simplifies life for those doing normal upgrades | 16:25 |
| mnaser | and while i'm not implying lets make life hard for fast forward upgrades | 16:26 |
| mnaser | but i assume they operate with the infrastructure needed to do this per-compute-node task etc | 16:26 |
| openstackgerrit | Sylvain Bauza proposed openstack/nova-specs master: Proposes Multiple GPU types https://review.openstack.org/557065 | 16:26 |
| mnaser | while most other deployment tools that don't do ffu don't have to add too much wild logic | 16:26 |
| PapaOurs | leakypipes: hope my new revision addressed most of your concerns https://review.openstack.org/557065 | 16:26 |
| superdan | mnaser: yep | 16:26 |
| PapaOurs | calling it a day now | 16:26 |
| PapaOurs | bye, folks | 16:26 |
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| superdan | mnaser: I'm asserting that for larger clouds, the in-place upgrade case is more common, | 16:27 |
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| superdan | and I think there is some perception that the common case is always to evacuate a compute node before upgrading nova-compute on it | 16:27 |
| mnaser | superdan: i think i agree with you on that because usually they have more resources to keep them maintained | 16:27 |
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| superdan | which works for 100 nodes, but not for 10,000 | 16:27 |
| jgwentworth | mnaser: to be clear, doing online is the standard and the offline batch is an additional tool provided for those who prefer to leverage it or are doing FFU | 16:28 |
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| mnaser | jgwentworth: yep, i agree with that | 16:28 |
| mnaser | so if this 'process' doesnt run, what are the consequences? | 16:28 |
| mnaser | like will the scheduler be weird? instances wont spawn? | 16:28 |
| superdan | mnaser: the NRP conversion? it can't not run | 16:28 |
| superdan | it's a pivot of all the resource accounting we do | 16:29 |
| mnaser | i'm just wondering what will happen with the inevitable cloud which will skip running them :p | 16:29 |
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| superdan | if they were manual only, | 16:30 |
| superdan | then compute would have to refuse to start if the conversion hadn't been run | 16:30 |
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| mxevgenis | hi everyone! i have deployed an openstack cloud via ansible deployment and although i have 6 compute node in the nova availability zone all my instances are launched on the first 2 nodes. As a result the resources of the 4 nodes are not in use. Any idea what is going wrong? | 16:33 |
| hansmoleman | scheduler defaults to pack first | 16:34 |
| hansmoleman | rather than spread across all hosts | 16:34 |
| jgwentworth | yep that | 16:35 |
| hansmoleman | mxevgenis: see https://docs.openstack.org/nova/latest/configuration/config.html#filter_scheduler.host_subset_size | 16:35 |
| mxevgenis | thanks a lot. However when i launched many instances in order to consume all the available resources and force it to use the rest node, i got the error no valid host. Which means there are no extra resources. Is it normal considering the problem you mentioned? | 16:38 |
| hansmoleman | low-hanging-fruit for someone https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1774676 | 16:39 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1774676 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Confusing usage information in max_instances_per_host config option" [Medium,Triaged] | 16:39 |
| hansmoleman | mxevgenis: then there is likely something wrong with those other hosts, not reporting inventory properly or something | 16:39 |
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| hansmoleman | you'd probably have to dig into what those are reporting for inventory, via the os-hypervisors API and checking in placement (using the osc-placement plugin) | 16:39 |
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| hansmoleman | https://developer.openstack.org/api-ref/compute/#hypervisors-os-hypervisors | 16:39 |
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| hansmoleman | https://docs.openstack.org/osc-placement/latest/index.html | 16:40 |
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| jgwentworth | mxevgenis: what version of nova are you using? do you mean that you launch N instances at the same time and you expect some to go to the rest of the nodes once the first nodes are full? by default, nova will try to reschedule to another host when one is full https://docs.openstack.org/nova/latest/configuration/config.html#scheduler.max_attempts | 16:40 |
| mxevgenis | i deployed the ocata version of openstack using the openstack-ansible project. I launched many instances not simultaneously until all of my resources (of the first two nodes) where reserved. The n+1 instance which should be launched on one of the rest nodes failed | 16:43 |
| mxevgenis | with no valid host error | 16:43 |
| mxevgenis | The wired thing is that in the compute nodes tab the hosts are displayed as active | 16:43 |
| jgwentworth | and any subsequent separate attempt to boot an instance is resulting in NoValidHost even though the rest of the nods are available? in that case, like hans_lunch mentioned, something else is wrong and you need to take a look at your nova-scheduler and nova-compute logs to see why it's being rejected | 16:45 |
| jgwentworth | *nodes | 16:45 |
| mxevgenis | thanks a lot. i appreciate your help!!! | 16:45 |
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| jgwentworth | prior to pike, it was possible for parallel requests to race in a way that even with reschedules, some requests could fail with NoValidHost as nodes filled up. but it sounds like that's not what you're hitting | 16:46 |
| mxevgenis | i should take a look on the logs and see what happens | 16:46 |
| jgwentworth | yeah, agreed. good luck | 16:47 |
| mxevgenis | the wired thing is that the nodes which are working fine are different in terms of hardware to the rest servers | 16:47 |
| mxevgenis | thanks a lot for your help again | 16:48 |
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| jgwentworth | yeah, there might be some host aggregate metadata mismatch going on (which if so, you will see in the logs) if you have things set differently depending on the hardware config of the servers. so yeah, have to check the logs to find out what's happening | 16:49 |
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| openstackgerrit | Dan Smith proposed openstack/nova master: Use oslo.messaging per-call monitoring https://review.openstack.org/566696 | 17:02 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/nova master: libvirt: place emulator threads on CONF.compute.cpu_shared_set https://review.openstack.org/510897 | 17:25 |
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| cfriesen | mnaser: for what it's worth I've played with kingbird a bit and it's somewhat useful but lacking robustness and functionality. (It only supports specific quotas for example.) | 17:33 |
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| fried_rice | superdan, mnaser, SpamapS, jgwentworth: I think I'm providing a way to do it live without the operator/admin having to do anything or even know it's happening. | 17:43 |
| superdan | fried_rice: yeah I think I acknowledged that you may be in my reply, but -EFRIDAY on processing it | 17:44 |
| fried_rice | superdan: ack | 17:45 |
| jgwentworth | kewl | 17:45 |
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| SpamapS | was hoping to discuss https://review.openstack.org/#/c/568953/ and https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1742102 today | 17:49 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1742102 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Simple user can disable compute" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Matt Riedemann (mriedem) | 17:49 |
| SpamapS | but I don't see a mriedem so maybe will have to wait until next week | 17:50 |
| SpamapS | I'm a little concerned that it may be very easy to DoS clouds that are set up to "pack" instead of "spread". | 17:50 |
| superdan | SpamapS: so turn it off | 17:50 |
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| superdan | SpamapS: mriedem is hans_lunch today, btw | 17:51 |
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| SpamapS | superdan: yes I"m suggesting that telling people to turn it off should be a CVE | 17:52 |
| jgwentworth | default is "pack", so this is a problem out-of-the-box | 17:52 |
| SpamapS | since the default is to have it turned on | 17:52 |
| superdan | calling it a CVE is way overblown, IMHO | 17:52 |
| SpamapS | and one basically just has to get nova to try and send a bunch of broken image+flavor reqs to a single compute node to disable it... and then keep doing that until they're all disabled. | 17:53 |
| SpamapS | If a regular user can disable your compute nodes, that rises to CVE IMO. | 17:53 |
| jgwentworth | mnaser: I think you hit this too, right? ^ | 17:53 |
| SpamapS | There are a lot of examples of advisory CVE's where certain configurations are vulnerable, and no code fix is available because it requires heavy refactoring. | 17:54 |
| SpamapS | I don't really want to write an exploit for this | 17:54 |
| SpamapS | but if you guys want to suggest it's not feasible.. we can go down that road, and maybe disprove it is feasible and forget about a CVE. | 17:54 |
| SpamapS | But we already had our stage cloud get all of its compute nodes disabled because of a bad image. | 17:55 |
| mnaser | yes i ran into this too | 17:55 |
| jgwentworth | fwiw, I think it's feasible and I think it's a serious problem. I'm just not so experienced with CVEs | 17:55 |
| mnaser | um one second | 17:55 |
| superdan | SpamapS: that feature was specifically requested by a bunch of ops in Boston, you know | 17:56 |
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| SpamapS | Feature is great! Implementation, not so much. | 17:56 |
| superdan | um | 17:56 |
| mnaser | sometimes it would be like | 17:56 |
| mnaser | nova-compute tries to create volume, user hit their quota, volume create fails, that gets labeled as a failed deploy | 17:56 |
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| mnaser | do enough of that and you'll start disabling everything, for us, we kinda just disabled that for now | 17:57 |
| SpamapS | Though IMO it should have included a back-off re-enabler too since, presumably, a disabled compute node may recover on its own and be able to serve traffic again. It's worth it to retry nodes that were in bad shape before. | 17:57 |
| superdan | mnaser: right, but that's just because volume create shouldn't be included in the list of disable-able things | 17:57 |
| superdan | it was intended to only be things that were obviously fatally broken | 17:57 |
| SpamapS | mnaser: yeah we're disabling the feature, and likely won't re-enable it until it also re-enables compute nodes automatically. But I figure there are likely Nova users out there that have it enabled, and are vulnerable to a malicious or even just poorly-configured user disabling all their compute nodes. | 17:58 |
| superdan | SpamapS: well, we could do that, but when I brought it up in the room, nobody wanted it to re-enable | 17:58 |
| mnaser | superdan: agreed, it includes things like ports, i think i worked partially on this but i forgot what progress i had :( | 17:58 |
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| superdan | for what it's worth, | 17:59 |
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| jgwentworth | mnaser: yeah. I think we saw that it would quickly become whack-a-mole, so we didn't have a straightforward way to solve it. trying to whitelist a bunch of things is a mess | 17:59 |
| superdan | anything that accidentally falls into the disable bucket are also things that generate retries, | 17:59 |
| superdan | so a user that can abuse that can also generate a ton of extra churn in the system, being DoSish on its own | 18:00 |
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| superdan | should we CVE for having max_attempts>1? | 18:00 |
| SpamapS | Anyway, there are two things I'd like to see happen and I'm happy to drive either or both. (1) Fix it so that it only increments on *specific* faults that are permanent failures on the compute node, instead of just a whitelist for exceptions to ignore. And (2) inform the user community of the danger they may be in. | 18:00 |
| superdan | SpamapS: it already only increments for specific things | 18:00 |
| superdan | SpamapS: it's just that set needs tweaking | 18:00 |
| SpamapS | did you see the list harlowja made? | 18:00 |
| mnaser | superdan:, SpamapS: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-nova/%23openstack-nova.2018-04-12.log.html | 18:01 |
| mnaser | brief discussion there | 18:01 |
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| SpamapS | Those don't seem well thought out. | 18:01 |
| SpamapS | And aren't explicitly listed. | 18:01 |
| SpamapS | mnaser: indeed, I found that yesterday. | 18:01 |
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| superdan | well, part of the problem is that we convert stupid exceptions to stupid build results | 18:01 |
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| superdan | and it operates on the latter | 18:01 |
| SpamapS | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1774527 | 18:02 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1742102 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "duplicate for #1774527 Simple user can disable compute" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Matt Riedemann (mriedem) | 18:02 |
| SpamapS | has Josh's list | 18:02 |
| mnaser | and then previous discussion here too http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-nova/%23openstack-nova.2018-01-23.log.html#t2018-01-23T19:36:41 | 18:02 |
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| mnaser | but i have to get back to doing some $work stuff but yeah, we disabled it on ourside | 18:02 |
| SpamapS | superdan: perhaps we shouldn't disable on stupid things? | 18:02 |
| superdan | SpamapS: I think I've said I agree with that statement :) | 18:02 |
| SpamapS | indeed | 18:02 |
| superdan | how come you guys think this is CVEish and just filed a non-security bug for it? | 18:03 |
| superdan | that kinda eliminates the supposed desire to make a big deal over it :) | 18:03 |
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| jgwentworth | superdan: they filed it as security but it's already known | 18:03 |
| jgwentworth | so I'm not sure how that works. | 18:03 |
| superdan | it's public, so not a security bug | 18:03 |
| SpamapS | and agreed that if you can cause a bunch of retries you are already causing the cloud some slowness. But the compute nodes disable somewhat silently, and permanently, creating a far worse situation than just "it's slow now" | 18:04 |
| jgwentworth | well, IMHO it should have been a security bug from the start, but the original bug reporter reported it as public | 18:04 |
| SpamapS | We didn't actually think it was a security bug, just reporting "hey this broke our cloud" | 18:04 |
| SpamapS | and then we debugged more and were like "zomg security" | 18:04 |
| SpamapS | and then we found out there was already public knowledge | 18:04 |
| superdan | SpamapS: you're going to DoS the first three nodes in your pack scenario | 18:05 |
| superdan | if you're just hitting those | 18:05 |
| superdan | so, anyway, | 18:05 |
| mnaser | except if you boot with --num-instances 100 | 18:05 |
| superdan | mnaser: well, true, but you're going for DoS so you don't do that if you're an attacker, right? | 18:05 |
| superdan | anyway, I'd really like to fix the thing and not rip it out, | 18:05 |
| superdan | but if people want to disable it by default for now, that's cool | 18:06 |
| superdan | although I think that means we'll never fix it | 18:06 |
| mnaser | maybe i should hush but nova doesn't even let us control the # to provide in --num-instances (and i'm agreeing that we clean it up rather than remove it) | 18:06 |
| mnaser | so if you have enough quota you can --num-instances one-zillion | 18:06 |
| SpamapS | I think the right fix is to pick *specific* build results that have high or absolute confidence are the fault of the compute node. | 18:06 |
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| superdan | mnaser: OMG CVE! :) | 18:06 |
| mnaser | shhh its friday | 18:06 |
| mnaser | we don't want that | 18:06 |
| superdan | SpamapS: we do pick specific build results, that's the thing | 18:06 |
| superdan | SpamapS: we convert _exceptions_ to build results in not the right way | 18:07 |
| mnaser | anything that results in a rescheduled build will trigger that counter to increase i think | 18:07 |
| SpamapS | How does an image too big for flavor failure land in that bucket then? | 18:07 |
| SpamapS | Or a "failure to download image" | 18:07 |
| mnaser | i think that's a bug that nova considers that a reschedule-able failure | 18:07 |
| SpamapS | yeah see re-schedulable doesn't mean it's the compute node's fault. | 18:08 |
| jgwentworth | I dunno, I do think it's worth an advisory to call this out because if any ol user could disable a lot of compute nodes by just making normal requests, it's a major problem | 18:08 |
| mnaser | failure to download image could be that specific compute node cannot talk to glance | 18:08 |
| mnaser | but it's a tricky weird thing to balance | 18:08 |
| SpamapS | could be | 18:08 |
| SpamapS | but you don't *know* | 18:08 |
| mnaser | but if your glance is down then | 18:08 |
| mnaser | all your compute nodes are going disabled | 18:08 |
| jrollinhatin | SpamapS: looks like two members from the VMT are already aware of this bug and triaging how we notify about it; if you're looking to have it tagged with a CVE perhaps engage them instead (since they're the people that do that thing)? | 18:08 |
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| SpamapS | yeah if glance is down or just partitioned from 1/3 of your cloud for right now, you don't want that to take that entire part of the cloud down without also re-enabling it when it comes back or unpartitions. | 18:09 |
| superdan | SpamapS: failure to download an image is pretty legit to disable, no? not flavor too small though, obviously | 18:09 |
| superdan | yeah, if glance is down that's fair I guess | 18:09 |
| SpamapS | jrollinhatin: ah good point. K, I've not actually driven a CVE before. | 18:09 |
| SpamapS | superdan: failure to download an image is pretty ambiguous. | 18:09 |
| SpamapS | And very likely to be temporary. | 18:10 |
| superdan | SpamapS: it's easy for some computes to be unable to download images, partition like you said | 18:10 |
| SpamapS | Like, to be able to really know where the fault is, you need something like Vitrage. | 18:10 |
| superdan | SpamapS: so this came up as one compute node being unable to do basic stuff like that can _also_ take down your whole cloud because it attracts all new builds and fails them | 18:10 |
| superdan | scientific cloud with no reschedules, pack mode, one compute node takes the whole thing down with it | 18:10 |
| SpamapS | Right, so maybe the right thing is to split into two categories. | 18:11 |
| SpamapS | Things to disable permanently for, and things to drop from retry list. | 18:11 |
| superdan | maybe what we should have done is just make a weigher or filter based on the fail score | 18:11 |
| SpamapS | or.. not retry | 18:11 |
| mnaser | i like that idea | 18:11 |
| SpamapS | but things to stop scheduling for | 18:11 |
| superdan | mnaser: that's a fairly easy iteration from where we are | 18:11 |
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| SpamapS | This is where k8s's scheduler does something smarter. If they get a failure on a node, they retry for a while on that node, and then they start backing off from it.. scheduling less and less frequently to it. | 18:12 |
| SpamapS | It's not disabled.. they keep trying it.. but less and less often. | 18:12 |
| SpamapS | A weighter would be perfect. | 18:13 |
| SpamapS | Just expose the consecutive failures counter and have a coeficient based on that. | 18:13 |
| SpamapS | So as it gets higher, the node gets less and less attempts. | 18:13 |
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| jgwentworth | makes sense | 18:14 |
| SpamapS | Arguably it should not reset to 0 on success, but just decrement. | 18:14 |
| superdan | SpamapS: why? | 18:14 |
| SpamapS | Flapping. | 18:14 |
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| superdan | SpamapS: you end up with a pretty hard to explain situation for why some compute nodes rarely get used, | 18:14 |
| SpamapS | If you reset it to 0, you start dumping lots on it again, which may make it start failing again. | 18:14 |
| superdan | which boils down to "it was partitioned for a long time a month ago and hasn't recovered" | 18:14 |
| SpamapS | Yeah maybe there needs to be a time based decrementer too. | 18:15 |
| superdan | so decrement by ten on each success | 18:15 |
| SpamapS | Like, decrement by 1 every x seconds, and 1 every success. | 18:15 |
| superdan | counter = min(0, counter - 10) | 18:15 |
| superdan | SpamapS: you're building a complicated thing that generates DB traffic | 18:15 |
| SpamapS | Yeah or you could weight heavily toward successes. | 18:15 |
| SpamapS | am I? I was thinking this number lives in the compute node and just goes along with ram/cpu/etc. stats? | 18:16 |
| superdan | SpamapS: we're trying to get rid of those stats that get reported all the time for no reason | 18:16 |
| SpamapS | and thus gets included in the current weighters? | 18:17 |
| SpamapS | Oh, how are we going to schedule without them? (Sorry for the basic questions, I'm not up to speed on current refactors) | 18:17 |
| superdan | we report resources in different ways now, and we don't constantly report "yep, the compute node still has a total of 192G of ram, same as last minute" | 18:18 |
| SpamapS | Yeah we just report on changes or something, yes? | 18:18 |
| SpamapS | so could be the same for this score, no? | 18:18 |
| superdan | well, we do via the old mechanism, but that's what we want to remove, and eventually hopefully the need to even run periodically | 18:18 |
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| SpamapS | can you point me at a description of those different ways? I want to understand. :) | 18:19 |
| superdan | the thing that is responsible for checking resources has nothing to do with this either | 18:19 |
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| superdan | everything we've done with placement lately? | 18:19 |
| superdan | I can't point you at one thing | 18:19 |
| SpamapS | I don't want you to have to type it all into IRC.. if there's just a description, I can think more clearly about how to make a weighter based on the scheduling health, which I think might be a nice way to evolve this feature. | 18:20 |
| superdan | it's not the weigher that's a problem, of course, | 18:20 |
| superdan | it's just more complicated if you have a periodic, which has a decay interval (config) and runs either independently (we have so many) or glommed onto something else like resource audit, which it has nothing to do with | 18:21 |
| superdan | and a successful boot either zeroing or aggressively decrementing the value is semantically closer to what we implemented initially, which people liked | 18:21 |
| SpamapS | I think it makes sense to decay it based on time, but maybe there are better ways. I like the idea of just having a coeficient to pull the fail counter down faster than it rises. | 18:22 |
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| superdan | the less we change the behavior, the more likely we are to be able to maybe backport something too | 18:23 |
| jgwentworth | SpamapS: coincidentally I happened upon this earlier today when trying to answer a different question, might be a good starting point for learning more if you're interested https://docs.openstack.org/nova/latest/reference/scheduling.html | 18:23 |
| SpamapS | Yeah, I think we'd just have to tell people to turn it off if they're in a situation where they might get DoS'd. | 18:24 |
| SpamapS | jgwentworth: thanks, was just reading that! :) | 18:24 |
| jgwentworth | oh, heh | 18:24 |
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| SpamapS | like, 30s before you sent, so, we're on the same page. Literally. | 18:25 |
| jgwentworth | haha | 18:25 |
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| SpamapS | The thing is, it would have to go down over time or nodes that got way off the rails might never see activity again. | 18:26 |
| superdan | if you're packing, you're opting into empty nodes right? | 18:26 |
| SpamapS | like if some aggregate got really full and a poorly weighted HV that is unhealthy gets scheduled and fails a lot for a while.. its score gets really high, then you add capacity somehow.. that node may never get any attempts unless you decrement or reset the counter. | 18:26 |
| superdan | I'm just trying to think about how we can do this initially with minimal change (config, code) and minimal semantic difference | 18:27 |
| superdan | for the purposes of applying to to existing stuff | 18:27 |
| superdan | if we're not interested in backporting it (backporting a weigher would be a first I bet) then maybe it doesn't matter | 18:27 |
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| SpamapS | Yeah I'm not sure. Still thinking through what might be a more self-managing place for the feature is all. | 18:27 |
| SpamapS | Good chat. I'll give it some thought, and see if we can also help the VMT determine if we should notify users about the potential for DoS. | 18:29 |
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| superdan | I just looked over all our periodics and I don't think it fits with any of the existing ones | 18:35 |
| superdan | there are a couple that would be closeish, but would still look really random to just do this other thing in the middle, | 18:35 |
| harlowja | people can if they want try http://paste.openstack.org/show/722481/ on some public openstack cloud, though i'd recommend u communicate with their operators before doing it at any scale | 18:35 |
| superdan | plus you probably want to be able to control the interval of this, which means it needs its own knob | 18:36 |
| harlowja | we ran that on one of our idle clouds and it was able to knock off 2 compute nodes in about 15 minutes | 18:36 |
| harlowja | afaik because of https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/compute/manager.py#L1804-L1810 | 18:36 |
| harlowja | line 81 -> 85 are the 'triggers' | 18:36 |
| harlowja | boot faster than nova can build | 18:37 |
| jrollinhatin | probably best not to post a working exploit for a security bug in an irc channel this large :| | 18:37 |
| harlowja | *boot and delete | 18:37 |
| superdan | jrollinhatin: yeah nfs | 18:37 |
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| penick | harlowja dude | 18:39 |
| harlowja | i'd have kept it on https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1774527 but that is already public as well | 18:41 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1742102 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "duplicate for #1774527 Simple user can disable compute" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Matt Riedemann (mriedem) | 18:41 |
| SpamapS | Cat's been out of the bag since January guys. That's not exactly rocket science. | 18:41 |
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| superdan | we've discussed it in public many times before then, | 18:43 |
| superdan | but if ya'll are so concerned about disclosure.. seems weird to argue for that and posting exploits :) | 18:43 |
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| hans_lunch | jgwentworth: i think this bp is probably also done now https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/overhead-pin-set+(status:open+OR+status:merged) | 18:47 |
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| jgwentworth | hans_lunch: awesome thanks. maybe I'll double check with sahid before closing it out | 18:49 |
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| mriedem | so it seems some fun times were had while i was eating bbq | 19:01 |
| mriedem | mnaser: btw, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/510235/ was a brain dump on the "limit --min-count during server create" issue | 19:02 |
| mriedem | it's really weird though | 19:02 |
| mriedem | from what i remember (of me writing the thing) is proposing a per-request limit | 19:02 |
| mriedem | configurable like quotas | 19:03 |
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| superdan | just like max_results, but inbound yeah? seems to make sense to me | 19:03 |
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| mriedem | right it's the exact same idea as metadata_items and injected_files quotas | 19:03 |
| mriedem | those are purely rate limiting | 19:04 |
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| mriedem | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/510235/1/specs/queens/approved/instance-max-count-limit.rst@94 | 19:04 |
| superdan | well, I wouldn't call them quotas since they're per-request and not per-tenant, but yeah | 19:04 |
| superdan | being a loaded term and all | 19:04 |
| mriedem | right | 19:04 |
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| mriedem | your rpc heartbeat thing solves part of this also | 19:05 |
| mriedem | with the select_destinations retry thing | 19:05 |
| mnaser | a per request limit is really what's needed because i can add some middleware to limit # of api requests easily | 19:05 |
| mnaser | but min_servers=999999999999999 isn't something i can control much | 19:05 |
| mriedem | right, well, it sounds like there is interest in this :) | 19:05 |
| superdan | mnaser: yeah | 19:05 |
| superdan | mriedem: if we enable it for select_destinations yeah | 19:06 |
| mriedem | i currently seem to have too many spinning plates | 19:06 |
| mriedem | i could probably get yikun to work on this though... | 19:06 |
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| openstackgerrit | Kashyap Chamarthy proposed openstack/nova master: libvirt: Remove usage of migrateToURI{2} APIs https://review.openstack.org/567258 | 19:44 |
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| cfriesen | kashyap: are the valid "param" keys for | 20:25 |
| cfriesen | Personally I'd replace the first sentence with something like "Thanks for checking out the StarlingX codebase." I think we'd want to make inclusion in the community an explicit opt-in thing rather than making assumptions. Sounds like Matt's got the technical details covered though so maybe it's a moot point. | 20:25 |
| cfriesen | I don't think there's any chance Kashyap would be interested in doing the actual work. He (and others) have already expressed skepticism at the idea that anyone outside of Intel/Wind River would ever contribute to StarlingX. | 20:25 |
| cfriesen | Chris | 20:25 |
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| cfriesen | well that's embarassing | 20:26 |
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| cfriesen | what I was trying to say, was are the valid "param" keys for the migrateToURI3() function documented somewhere? I didn't see them on the Libvirt API docs. | 20:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/nova master: Restrict CONF.quota.driver to DB and noop quota drivers https://review.openstack.org/410996 | 20:56 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/nova master: Fix invalid raise in test_compute_mgr https://review.openstack.org/571610 | 20:56 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/nova master: Implement granular policy rules for placement https://review.openstack.org/524425 | 21:06 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jay Pipes proposed openstack/nova master: Add a microversion for consumer generation support https://review.openstack.org/565604 | 21:12 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jay Pipes proposed openstack/nova master: placement: always create consumer records https://review.openstack.org/567678 | 21:31 |
| openstackgerrit | Jay Pipes proposed openstack/nova master: add consumers generation field https://review.openstack.org/557958 | 21:31 |
| openstackgerrit | Jay Pipes proposed openstack/nova master: placement: Allocation.consumer field https://review.openstack.org/565405 | 21:31 |
| openstackgerrit | Jay Pipes proposed openstack/nova master: rework allocation handler _allocations_dict() https://review.openstack.org/565407 | 21:31 |
| openstackgerrit | Jay Pipes proposed openstack/nova master: Add a microversion for consumer generation support https://review.openstack.org/565604 | 21:31 |
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| mriedem | woot 20 fake compute nodes in devstack single node, time for some fun | 21:41 |
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| * cdent thinks mriedem broke it | 21:43 | |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/nova master: [placement] default to accept of application/json when */* https://review.openstack.org/568630 | 21:45 |
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| openstackgerrit | Chris Dent proposed openstack/nova master: Extract part of PlacementFixture to placement https://review.openstack.org/568359 | 21:53 |
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| openstackgerrit | karim proposed openstack/nova master: Handle rebuild of instances with image traits https://review.openstack.org/569498 | 22:16 |
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| openstackgerrit | Eric Fried proposed openstack/nova master: Test for multiple limit/group_policy qparams https://review.openstack.org/568713 | 22:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | Matt Riedemann proposed openstack/nova master: Add nova-manage placement heal_allocations CLI https://review.openstack.org/565886 | 22:47 |
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| openstackgerrit | Chris Dent proposed openstack/nova master: Optional separate database for placement API https://review.openstack.org/362766 | 23:07 |
| openstackgerrit | Chris Dent proposed openstack/nova master: Isolate placement database config https://review.openstack.org/541435 | 23:08 |
| openstackgerrit | Chris Dent proposed openstack/nova master: Ensure that os-traits sync is attempted only at start of process https://review.openstack.org/553857 | 23:08 |
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| openstackgerrit | Chris Dent proposed openstack/nova master: Add PLACEMENT_DB_ENABLED=True to the nova-next job https://review.openstack.org/564067 | 23:09 |
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| openstackgerrit | Chris Dent proposed openstack/nova master: Use nova.db.api directly https://review.openstack.org/543262 | 23:10 |
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