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| mlavalle | #startmeeting neutron_drivers | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Jun 21 14:00:13 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mlavalle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_drivers)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_drivers' | 14:00 |
| yamamoto | hi | 14:00 |
| slaweq | hi | 14:01 |
| amotoki | o/ | 14:01 |
| ralonsoh | hi | 14:01 |
| mlavalle | ok | 14:02 |
| mlavalle | good evening / afternoon / morning to everybody | 14:03 |
| mlavalle | let's get going | 14:03 |
| mlavalle | #topic RFEs | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "RFEs (Meeting topic: neutron_drivers)" | 14:03 | |
| haleyb | hi | 14:03 |
| mlavalle | Today we have 1 RFE to discuss: https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1832758 | 14:03 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1832758 in neutron "[RFE] Allow/deny custom ethertypes in security groups" [Wishlist,New] | 14:03 |
| slaweq | that is interesting one :) | 14:04 |
| amotoki | I haven't followed comments so far, but as a quick look it looks okay to accept ether types other than IPv4/IPv6. | 14:06 |
| amotoki | ovs flow allows us to do it. | 14:07 |
| slaweq | amotoki: yes, but the problem here is that in case of iptables fw driver all such custom ethertypes are allows already | 14:08 |
| slaweq | and there is no way to block them currently | 14:08 |
| slaweq | so we have totally different behaviour depends on what driver is used | 14:08 |
| haleyb | yes, with iptables_hybrid we might be able to do it using ebtables, right now it's almost a bug in the iptables_hybrid code imho | 14:08 |
| amotoki | slaweq: ah.... the fallback default rule allows all traffic? | 14:08 |
| slaweq | at least IIUC this bug report and what njohnston explained us recently, it is like that | 14:09 |
| mlavalle | so that tells me that we should strive for consistency, right? | 14:09 |
| slaweq | so IMO first question here is: | 14:09 |
| slaweq | which behaviour is correct | 14:10 |
| slaweq | 1. iptables_hybrid driver which allows custom ethertypes | 14:10 |
| slaweq | or | 14:10 |
| slaweq | 2. ovs driver which blocks it | 14:10 |
| mlavalle | another way to pose the question is: | 14:10 |
| mlavalle | do we believe that there are already users with this use case going on with iptables_hybrid | 14:11 |
| mlavalle | ? | 14:11 |
| mlavalle | if yes, that kind of tells us that is the right behavior | 14:11 |
| haleyb | yes, there are, but it might have been an oversight since we're allowing traffic that wasn't allowed by an SG rule | 14:12 |
| mlavalle | I know | 14:12 |
| slaweq | mlavalle: as njohnston wrote in comment, we had customers using e.g. InfiniBand which require such traffic | 14:12 |
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| mlavalle | I understand that. But if those users are working with those use cases without a problem, why would we rule it out? | 14:13 |
| mlavalle | the way I see it, we should catch up with reality | 14:14 |
| mlavalle | and make it explicit | 14:14 |
| amotoki | I generally agree with mlavalle. | 14:16 |
| amotoki | One point is how operators can check if such use cases are being used in their deployments. | 14:16 |
| mlavalle | ahhh, that's good point | 14:17 |
| mlavalle | the same as us, many of those deployment managers might not even know that this is going on | 14:17 |
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| haleyb | we had no idea, new deployment used ovsfw and boom! | 14:18 |
| mlavalle | exactly | 14:18 |
| slaweq | IMHO current situation is: correct behaviour is in ovs fw but some users are rely on broken iptables_hybrid driver, so do we want to "break" ovs fw driver and allow such traffic there too, or do we want to break some of existing deployments which uses iptables_hybrid driver? | 14:18 |
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| mlavalle | but we wouldn't be breaking any ovs fw driver sitaution | 14:19 |
| mlavalle | we would just open up another possibility to them | 14:20 |
| mlavalle | the converse is not true | 14:20 |
| haleyb | i guess i don't think we can change iptables_hybrid without a solution to then allow different ethertypes | 14:20 |
| mlavalle | with iptables_hybrid users, we would be braking scenarios | 14:20 |
| slaweq | mlavalle: exactly | 14:21 |
| yamamoto | slaweq: why do you think ovs-fw behaviour is correct? | 14:21 |
| amotoki | it would be nice if we have a kind of "permissive" mode as selinux does.... but I am not sure it can and is feasible | 14:21 |
| mlavalle | and yes, that is the next question, yamamoto | 14:21 |
| slaweq | yamamoto: because iptables driver now allows traffic which isn't explicity set to be allowed in SG rules | 14:21 |
| amotoki | yamamoto: I agree with slaweq. all traffic which aree not defined in SG rules should be dropped I think. | 14:21 |
| slaweq | but maybe it's "only" matter of proper documentation where we will say explicity what SG can filter and what not | 14:22 |
| mlavalle | I think it boils down to saying the community clearly what happened | 14:23 |
| mlavalle | allow the new behavior | 14:23 |
| mlavalle | and maybe, as suggested by amotoki's previous comment, provide tools for deployment managers to audit their deployments | 14:23 |
| mlavalle | and add rules in the case of iptables_hybrid | 14:24 |
| mlavalle | to make it explicit | 14:24 |
| haleyb | can probably do that by changing default to DROP instead of ACCEPT, i don't know | 14:25 |
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| mlavalle | maybe | 14:26 |
| haleyb | altough that's at iptables, which isn't in play | 14:26 |
| haleyb | i was getting ahead of myself... | 14:26 |
| mlavalle | maybe the way forward is approve the RFE with the comments ^^^^ and ask for a spec where we can sort out the details | 14:27 |
| mlavalle | but I don't see us dodging this one | 14:27 |
| amotoki | The RFE is about ovs-fw. one idea is to keep the current behavior of iptables-based impl and to add non-IP ethertype to ovs-fw. It would break nothing. | 14:28 |
| mlavalle | that's true | 14:28 |
| amotoki | we can accept non-IP ethertype if ovs-fw is used. | 14:28 |
| amotoki | the API extension would help us | 14:29 |
| mlavalle | and document exactly what happened, so community is aware | 14:29 |
| yamamoto | i wonder how other impls do | 14:29 |
| haleyb | that get's back to the question of should we be doing that? it seems like a security issue since user didn't authorize it | 14:29 |
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| slaweq | maybe we can align ovs-fw with iptables for now, so allow this non-IP ethertypes and update docs and later as second step add possibility to enable/disable such traffic - this second step would be treated as RFE | 14:30 |
| amotoki | how about making it explicitly? for example, we can insert a SG rule to allow non-IP ethertype traffic | 14:31 |
| haleyb | that would let you audit it i'd assume, seeing byte/packet counts on a flow rule | 14:32 |
| slaweq | amotoki: but this may be tricky to implement in case of iptables_driver, no? | 14:32 |
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| amotoki | slaweq: perhaps what we need to do is to keep ovs-fw compatible with iptable-hybrid w/ some audit way | 14:33 |
| mlavalle | it should be made explicit in both cases | 14:33 |
| mlavalle | with rules | 14:34 |
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| slaweq | amotoki: I agree, that would be good solution | 14:35 |
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| yamamoto | do we want to make some research about other SG impls? i can look at midonet if desirable | 14:38 |
| mlavalle | amotoki: what exactly is meant by "keep ovs-fw compatible? | 14:39 |
| mlavalle | does it mean just opening up those ethertypes by default? | 14:39 |
| amotoki | mlavalle: what I think is to allow non-IP traffic by default. | 14:39 |
| amotoki | mlavalle: yes | 14:40 |
| mlavalle | without explicit rules? | 14:40 |
| amotoki | I think "explicit (SG) rules" is optional. operators can check such traffic is sent from ovs flow stats (though we need to check it is feasible) | 14:41 |
| slaweq | amotoki: or maybe add new config option to allow operator to explicity say: "on this node, non-IP traffic should be allowed with ovs-fw driver" | 14:41 |
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| amotoki | slaweq: yes, that's another good option | 14:42 |
| mlavalle | another alternative is to enforce it / make it explicit at the upgrade moment: | 14:43 |
| mlavalle | 1) iptables-hybrid continues as is | 14:43 |
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| mlavalle | 2) when user upgrades to ovs-fw, he / she needs to create rules to allow other ether types | 14:44 |
| mlavalle | this way, over time, we nudge the community to make this bahvior explicit | 14:44 |
| mlavalle | and we provide tools for the upgrade | 14:45 |
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| yamamoto | mlavalle: does it mean "an SG implementation can choose either behaviors"? | 14:47 |
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| mlavalle | yamamoto: it means that when you upgrade to ovs-fw you have make your choice to allow other ether types explicit with rules in your security groups | 14:48 |
| mlavalle | this way, as the community adopts ovs-fw, we gradually line up the actual behavior with what is expressed in the security groups | 14:50 |
| amotoki | I think yamamoto's question is about third-party SG implementation. do they need to change the behavior on non-IP ether traffic at some time? or do they choose a behavior? | 14:50 |
| mlavalle | for that part of the proble, I think we need to understand what the current posture is, as suggested by yamamoto himself | 14:51 |
| mlavalle | what doesn midonet do now? | 14:52 |
| mlavalle | maybe some investigation is needed to answer this | 14:52 |
| yamamoto | mlavalle: dunno. i need to investigate | 14:52 |
| mlavalle | what doesn ovn do, haleyb? | 14:53 |
| haleyb | mlavalle: since it uses the ovsfw I'm assuming it drops the traffic, but i have not tested | 14:53 |
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| mlavalle | I think boden can help us with the nsx plugin | 14:54 |
| yamamoto | haleyb: doesn't it use ovn acls? | 14:54 |
| haleyb | yamamoto: i can ask, just not something i've looked at yet | 14:55 |
| mlavalle | ok, it seems that we need to take a pause on this one and revisit it next week | 14:56 |
| mlavalle | I'll try to find out what's the situation with networking-odl | 14:56 |
| mlavalle | does that sound sensible? | 14:56 |
| slaweq | +1 | 14:57 |
| amotoki | +1. it would be nice if we can cover vmware-nsx as well. | 14:57 |
| yamamoto | +1 | 14:57 |
| yamamoto | although i'm not sure i have time to look at midonet in a week. | 14:58 |
| mlavalle | amotoki: yes, I'll ask boden for help with that | 14:58 |
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| mlavalle | ok guys, have a great weekend | 14:59 |
| mlavalle | thanks for attending | 14:59 |
| mlavalle | #endmeeting | 14:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 14:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Jun 21 14:59:22 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2019/neutron_drivers.2019-06-21-14.00.html | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2019/neutron_drivers.2019-06-21-14.00.txt | 14:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2019/neutron_drivers.2019-06-21-14.00.log.html | 14:59 |
| amotoki | thanks all | 14:59 |
| slaweq | thanks o/ | 14:59 |
| yamamoto | good night | 15:00 |
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