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| hongbin | #startmeeting zun | 03:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 26 03:00:26 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 03:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 03:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'zun' | 03:00 |
| hongbin | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun#Agenda_for_2016-07-26_0300_UTC Today's agenda | 03:00 |
| hongbin | #topic Roll Call | 03:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:00 | |
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| Wenzhi | Wenzhi Yu | 03:00 |
| mkrai | Madhuri Kumari | 03:00 |
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| shubhams_ | Shubham | 03:00 |
| Namrata | Namrata | 03:00 |
| yanyanhu | hi | 03:00 |
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| flwang | o/ | 03:02 |
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| hongbin | Thanks for joining the meeting Wenzhi mkrai shubhams_ Namrata yanyanhu flwang | 03:02 |
| hongbin | #topic Announcements | 03:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:02 | |
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| hongbin | We have a CLI now! | 03:02 |
| hongbin | #link https://github.com/openstack/python-zunclient | 03:02 |
| hongbin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/337360/ service-list command is supported | 03:02 |
| flwang | cool | 03:02 |
| hongbin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/344594/ it is enabled in devstack | 03:02 |
| yanyanhu | great | 03:03 |
| hongbin | Thanks mkrai for the work :) | 03:03 |
| Wenzhi | bravo | 03:03 |
| mkrai | My Pleasure :) | 03:03 |
| hongbin | #topic Review Action Items | 03:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Items (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:03 | |
| hongbin | 1. hongbin investigate an option for message passing (DONE) | 03:03 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-container-state-management | 03:03 |
| hongbin | We have a session below to discuss it | 03:04 |
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| hongbin | #topic Re-consider RabbitMQ. How about using key/value store (i.e. etcd) for passing messages (shubhams) | 03:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Re-consider RabbitMQ. How about using key/value store (i.e. etcd) for passing messages (shubhams) (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:04 | |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-container-state-management | 03:04 |
| hongbin | Here you go | 03:04 |
| hongbin | Want a few minutes to work on the etherpad? | 03:05 |
| mkrai | hongbin, Thanks for the work | 03:05 |
| hongbin | np | 03:05 |
| mkrai | But seems we haven't looked at taskflow | 03:05 |
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| hongbin | taskflow looks more high level | 03:05 |
| mkrai | Shall we also look at it and then decide on a final option | 03:05 |
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| hongbin | mkrai: do you have an idea about how to use taskflow? | 03:06 |
| mkrai | No not yet | 03:06 |
| mkrai | But I can look at it | 03:06 |
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| hongbin | ok | 03:06 |
| shubhams_ | taskflow has more use cases for a component like heat .. Dividing each operation in small tasks and then work upon them | 03:06 |
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| hongbin | Sounds like it is not conflict with the choice of data store | 03:07 |
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| hongbin | You can have taskflows for tasks, but not for data store | 03:07 |
| mkrai | Yes more of message passing | 03:07 |
| hongbin | not sure for messaging pssing | 03:08 |
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| hongbin | anyway | 03:08 |
| Wenzhi | IMO rabbitmq is reliable for message passing | 03:08 |
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| hongbin | true | 03:09 |
| mkrai | And etcd for storage | 03:09 |
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| Wenzhi | and it's easy to implement by importing oslo.messaging | 03:09 |
| hongbin | Yes, it is | 03:09 |
| sudipto | o/ | 03:10 |
| hongbin | sudipto: hey | 03:10 |
| hongbin | sudipto: we are discussing this etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-container-state-management | 03:10 |
| sudipto | hongbin, thanks. Looking. | 03:10 |
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| hongbin | OK. Maybe I could summarize | 03:11 |
| hongbin | For data store | 03:11 |
| hongbin | The choice is etcd and db | 03:11 |
| hongbin | Both have pros and cons | 03:11 |
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| hongbin | For options for passing message | 03:11 |
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| Wenzhi | etcd is not designed for message passing but rabbitmq is | 03:11 |
| hongbin | The choices is http or message queue | 03:11 |
| hongbin | Wenzhi: yes | 03:12 |
| Wenzhi | I think it's risky to employ etcd for message passing | 03:12 |
| hongbin | No, etcd is not for passing message | 03:13 |
| yanyanhu | Wenzhi, I think that depends on how we design the communication mechanism between different modules | 03:13 |
| yanyanhu | using etcd, watching on configuration change is used to support it | 03:14 |
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| yanyanhu | but in most OpenStack services, messaging is the way applied | 03:14 |
| hongbin | yanyanhu: good summarize | 03:15 |
| yanyanhu | myself is also not so sure which one is better, but we do have two choices here | 03:15 |
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| Wenzhi | yanyanhu: yes I agree, etcd also could be used for message passing, but I don't think it's as reliable as rabbitmq | 03:15 |
| Wenzhi | as I said, it's not designed for this | 03:15 |
| yanyanhu | I see. | 03:16 |
| hongbin | There are ways to deal with the unreliability I think | 03:16 |
| yanyanhu | just have little experience about them | 03:16 |
| mkrai | Yes may be we are sure about rabbitmq because it is used in Openstack | 03:17 |
| mkrai | And that's not the case with etcd | 03:17 |
| hongbin | For example, perioidcally sync data from data store | 03:17 |
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| hongbin | mkrai: good point. rabbitmq is easier to understand for us maybe | 03:17 |
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| hongbin | Then, I would suggest to have both | 03:18 |
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| hongbin | We can abstract the message passing | 03:18 |
| shubhams_ | hongbin : option#3 in etherpad ? | 03:18 |
| sudipto | novice question w.r.t the etherpad - when you schedule the container - you are storing the 'data' of the container in the datastore - what is this data? The provisioning request? When you create the container - host agents again store back the 200 OK or SUCCESS states back to the data store? | 03:18 |
| hongbin | shubhams_: yes | 03:18 |
| hongbin | sudipto: I copied the idea from k8s | 03:19 |
| hongbin | sudipto: here is how it works (i think) | 03:19 |
| mkrai | sudipto, Is it architecture #1? | 03:19 |
| sudipto | mkrai, either #1 or #3 | 03:19 |
| hongbin | sudipto: the api server write the pod to etcd | 03:19 |
| hongbin | sudipto: the schedule assign pod to node, and write it to etcd, with state "pending" | 03:20 |
| mkrai | It is the scheduling request | 03:20 |
| hongbin | sudipto: kubelet watch the node, figure out there is a new pod | 03:21 |
| sudipto | hongbin, and this figuring out - happens through some kind of polling? | 03:21 |
| hongbin | sudipto: then, create the pod. WHen finish, write the state as "running" | 03:21 |
| hongbin | sudipto: In k8s, they do both | 03:21 |
| hongbin | sudipto: they call it list and watch | 03:21 |
| sudipto | hongbin, or is it some kind of a rpc call back? | 03:22 |
| sudipto | ok | 03:22 |
| hongbin | sudipto: they periodically pulling data from api, also watch data chance | 03:22 |
| sudipto | hongbin, ok | 03:22 |
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| hongbin | The watch will figure out there is a new pod | 03:22 |
| sudipto | data chance == data channel? | 03:23 |
| hongbin | If the watch is miss, it can be catched in the next pull | 03:23 |
| hongbin | I guess yes, it is basically a push | 03:23 |
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| hongbin | if kubelet watch a node, kubeapiserver will push an event to kubelet | 03:24 |
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| hongbin | I guess it happens via a http socket | 03:24 |
| sudipto | hongbin, ok... however, it does sound like - we will re-implement a scheduler in zun then? | 03:24 |
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| sudipto | sudipto, which i think is mostly needed since we want to do container scheduling and the reference architecture. | 03:25 |
| hongbin | sudipto: yes | 03:25 |
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| sudipto | hongbin, but i guess it should have some by pass mechanism while we are doing the COE support? Or should we just not think about it atm? | 03:25 |
| hongbin | No, this is not for COE | 03:26 |
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| hongbin | This is the runtime architecture | 03:26 |
| hongbin | which we call "referenced COE" | 03:26 |
| sudipto | hongbin, alrite. The runtime architecture which is the referenced one. | 03:26 |
| hongbin | yes | 03:26 |
| sudipto | hongbin, got it! | 03:26 |
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| sudipto | hongbin, the model does seem nice to follow for me. The only thing though is - this is a bit orthogonal to openstack | 03:27 |
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| sudipto | sounds like a lot of investment from development per say - but may be it's what we need. | 03:27 |
| hongbin | sudipto: yes, it is totally news for openstack devs | 03:27 |
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| hongbin | OK. Everyone, you have a choice or needs more time to decide? | 03:28 |
| mkrai | I think option #3 is better | 03:29 |
| hongbin | silent..... | 03:29 |
| yanyanhu | agree with #3 | 03:29 |
| mkrai | But nothing can be said now as it all depends on performance | 03:29 |
| yanyanhu | mkrai, +1 | 03:29 |
| hongbin | Then, I think option #3 is more flexible | 03:30 |
| shubhams_ | agree with #3 | 03:30 |
| sudipto | #3 with a proof of concept | 03:30 |
| hongbin | if we find performance is not good, we can switch the backends | 03:30 |
| hongbin | ok | 03:30 |
| hongbin | sounds we agreed on #3 | 03:30 |
| Wenzhi | +1 | 03:30 |
| mkrai | Yes the architecture remains the same | 03:30 |
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| hongbin | #agreed try option #3 in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-container-state-management | 03:31 |
| sudipto | hongbin, the language of choice to code - is still python right? | 03:31 |
| hongbin | sudipto: yes python | 03:31 |
| sudipto | with the Global Interpreter Lock :D | 03:31 |
| hongbin | ?? | 03:31 |
| sudipto | gah - sorry about that. Basically I was talking about the slowness of python . | 03:31 |
| hongbin | haha | 03:32 |
| hongbin | We are an OpenStack project, I guess we don't have choice for hte language | 03:32 |
| hongbin | :) | 03:32 |
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| hongbin | even if it is slow | 03:32 |
| hongbin | OK. Advance topic | 03:32 |
| hongbin | #topic Runtimes API design | 03:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Runtimes API design (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:33 | |
| hongbin | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/api-design The BP | 03:33 |
| yanyanhu | I have almost forgot everything I have learned about other language since I worked on openstack :) | 03:33 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-service-api The etherpad | 03:33 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-service-api-spec The spec | 03:33 |
| mkrai | I worked on the api patch last week but it is not yet ready | 03:33 |
| mkrai | To test it we first need to finalize the backend services | 03:33 |
| mkrai | Like what services we will have conductor or compute or both? | 03:34 |
| hongbin | mkrai: we just decided to go with #3 | 03:34 |
| hongbin | mkrai: that means no conductor basically | 03:34 |
| mkrai | Ok so compute and scheduler | 03:35 |
| hongbin | mkrai: just api and agent (compute) | 03:35 |
| hongbin | mkrai: yes | 03:35 |
| mkrai | Ok so I need to work on compute agent as it doesn't have the docker api calls | 03:35 |
| mkrai | This makes things more simpler | 03:36 |
| mkrai | I will work on same | 03:36 |
| sudipto | mkrai, can you explain what you meant by "doesn't have the docker api calls"? | 03:36 |
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| mkrai | sudipto, the compute code is not yet implemented that has the essential container related actions | 03:37 |
| mkrai | Like the docker container create or etc | 03:37 |
| sudipto | mkrai, sigh! My bad. Got it. | 03:37 |
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| mkrai | I have a patch upstream for conductor that has this all | 03:38 |
| mkrai | Now I will work on adding it to compute | 03:38 |
| mkrai | :) | 03:38 |
| sudipto | your calls to docker APIs were in the conductor? | 03:38 |
| Wenzhi | mkrai: I'll help on that | 03:38 |
| mkrai | Yes sudipto | 03:38 |
| mkrai | We are following the openstack architecture and that was bad | 03:39 |
| mkrai | s/are/were | 03:39 |
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| sudipto | oh - that doesn't sound like the place to put them anyway right? Since you would always have that in the compute agent - with the new design or otherwise. | 03:39 |
| mkrai | Yes that patch was submitted before compute agent I remember | 03:39 |
| sudipto | yeah ok... | 03:39 |
| mkrai | So that's why | 03:39 |
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| sudipto | i am up for doing code reviews - and help wherever i can. | 03:40 |
| mkrai | Thanks sudipto :) | 03:40 |
| mkrai | hongbin, that's all from my side. | 03:40 |
| hongbin | thanks mkrai | 03:40 |
| sudipto | the design of the compute agent probably also should go into an etherpad? | 03:40 |
| sudipto | before we start realizing it with code? | 03:40 |
| Wenzhi | mkrai: this is the bp for compute agent https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/zun-host-agent | 03:41 |
| sudipto | since i would imagine a stevedore plugin or some such thing to load drivers? | 03:41 |
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| mkrai | Thanks Wenzhi | 03:41 |
| hongbin | sudipto: I guess we can code first | 03:41 |
| mkrai | I will connect to you later | 03:41 |
| Wenzhi | okay | 03:41 |
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| sudipto | hongbin, i guess we should design first :) but that's me. | 03:42 |
| hongbin | sudipto: The compute is basically the implementation details, which cannot be explained clearly in an etherpad | 03:42 |
| sudipto | since we have now involved arch # 3 which will vary from the traditional openstack projects. | 03:42 |
| hongbin | sudipto: yes, maybe | 03:43 |
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| sudipto | but either way - i am good. | 03:43 |
| mkrai | Yes agree sudipto | 03:43 |
| hongbin | sudipto: OK, then I will leave it to the contribution | 03:43 |
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| hongbin | sudipto: if the contributor like to have the design in etherpad, it works | 03:43 |
| sudipto | hongbin, ok - shall be eager to work with mkrai and Wenzhi to have that in place. | 03:43 |
| hongbin | sudipto: if the contributor want to code first, it also works | 03:44 |
| hongbin | sudipto: k | 03:44 |
| Wenzhi | either works for me | 03:44 |
| hongbin | ok | 03:44 |
| sudipto | great progress so far :) | 03:44 |
| hongbin | yes | 03:45 |
| hongbin | let's advance topic | 03:45 |
| hongbin | #topic COE API design | 03:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "COE API design (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:45 | |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-coe-service-api Etherpad | 03:45 |
| hongbin | I guess we can leave the etherpad as homework | 03:45 |
| hongbin | and discuss the details there | 03:45 |
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| hongbin | Anything you guys want to discuss about the COE api? | 03:46 |
| Wenzhi | agree | 03:46 |
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| mkrai | I think we can discuss later | 03:46 |
| hongbin | k | 03:46 |
| hongbin | #topic Nova integration | 03:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Nova integration (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:46 | |
| hongbin | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/nova-integration The BP | 03:47 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-nova-integration The etherpad | 03:47 |
| sudipto | hongbin, not related to the API design as such, but i think - we can have a way to plug the scheduler as well. For instance - we could plug a mesos scheduler and work with runtimes above it? | 03:47 |
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| hongbin | sudipto: good point | 03:47 |
| hongbin | sudipto: I think this is a good idea, besides you, there are other people asking for that | 03:48 |
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| mkrai | sudipto, That's only specific to the COEs? | 03:48 |
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| mkrai | Let's discuss that in open discussion | 03:48 |
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| sudipto | mkrai, I would guess so - unless we build a zun runtime - that could be plugged to the mesos scheduler as well. So yeah open discussions then. | 03:49 |
| mkrai | Now nova integration :) | 03:49 |
| hongbin | Namrata_: are you the one who volunteer to work on Nova integration? | 03:49 |
| Namrata_ | yes | 03:49 |
| hongbin | Namrata_: anything you wan tto update the team? | 03:49 |
| Namrata_ | i have gone through ironic code | 03:49 |
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| Namrata_ | Nova conductor and scheduler are tightly coupled | 03:50 |
| Namrata_ | https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/conductor/manager.py#L470 | 03:50 |
| Namrata_ | as we are considering scheduler for zun | 03:50 |
| Namrata_ | we have two schedulers | 03:51 |
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| Namrata_ | imo we wwill give preference to zun's scheduler | 03:51 |
| Namrata_ | and discard the host info given by nova's scheduler | 03:51 |
| mkrai | Yes that's a pitfall for us | 03:51 |
| hongbin | yanyanhu: what do you think? | 03:52 |
| sudipto | i thought we were looking at it more like a replacement to the nova-docker driver? Is that still true? | 03:52 |
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| mkrai | Yes sudipto | 03:52 |
| mkrai | But nova-docker doesn't have any scheduler | 03:52 |
| sudipto | mkrai, yeah coz it's yet another compute driver to nova. | 03:53 |
| sudipto | but i keep forgetting... the reason we want to think like ironic is because of the dual scheduler thingy? | 03:53 |
| hongbin | For Ironic, it uses the nova scheduler | 03:53 |
| yanyanhu | hongbin, sorry, just trapped by some other stuff | 03:53 |
| hongbin | yanyanhu: we are discussing the scheduler | 03:54 |
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| yanyanhu | about scheduler, if we can reuse the nova scheduler, that will be the best I feel | 03:54 |
| yanyanhu | but not sure when they will split it out | 03:54 |
| yanyanhu | finally | 03:54 |
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| Wenzhi | I think it's not easy for us to reuse nova scheduler | 03:55 |
| sudipto | i am wondering - the API design we just had for the zun runtime - doesn't necessarily map to the nova VM states - so how do we want to deal with it? | 03:55 |
| Wenzhi | container is not like server(virtual or physical) | 03:55 |
| yanyanhu | Wenzhi, yes, they behaves differently | 03:56 |
| Namrata_ | yes | 03:56 |
| mkrai | So does it mean schedulers also differ? | 03:56 |
| Wenzhi | ironic use nova scheduler because physical servers are also servers | 03:56 |
| yanyanhu | just feel the scheduling mechanism could be similar | 03:56 |
| Wenzhi | they can fit into nova data model, but containers can not, right? | 03:56 |
| yanyanhu | just placement decision | 03:57 |
| sudipto | Wenzhi, precisely the point i thought... | 03:57 |
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| hongbin | #topic Open Discussion | 03:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:57 | |
| mkrai | sudipto, Doesn't the scheduler also? | 03:57 |
| yanyanhu | based on resource capability and also other advanced strategy | 03:57 |
| yanyanhu | s/capability/capacity | 03:58 |
| sudipto | mkrai, scheduler also - does not fit for containers you mean? | 03:58 |
| mkrai | Yes | 03:58 |
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| mkrai | I mean the nova scheduler for containers | 03:58 |
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| yanyanhu | mkrai, you mean for nova-docker? | 03:59 |
| sudipto | mkrai, yeah - i would guess so. It's a rabbit hole there. | 03:59 |
| sudipto | anyway that i don't mean to de-rail that effort... so either way again - it works for me. | 03:59 |
| hongbin | OK. Time is up. | 03:59 |
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| hongbin | Thanks everyone for joining the meeting | 03:59 |
| mkrai | Lets discuss on zun channel | 04:00 |
| hongbin | #endmeetings | 04:00 |
| Namrata_ | Thanks.. | 04:00 |
| mkrai | Thanks! | 04:00 |
| hongbin | #endmeeting | 04:00 |
| Wenzhi | thanks all | 04:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 04:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 26 04:00:11 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 04:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-07-26-03.00.html | 04:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-07-26-03.00.txt | 04:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-07-26-03.00.log.html | 04:00 |
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| Qiming | #startmeeting senlin | 13:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 26 13:00:23 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'senlin' | 13:00 |
| zzxwill | Hello. | 13:00 |
| yanyanhu | hi | 13:00 |
| elynn | o/ | 13:00 |
| Qiming | #topic roll call | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:00 | |
| Qiming | hello | 13:01 |
| yanyanhu | o/ | 13:01 |
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| elynn | Evening! | 13:01 |
| Qiming | xinhui or haiwei online? | 13:01 |
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| lixinhui_ | Yes | 13:01 |
| lixinhui_ | Just jumped in | 13:02 |
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| Qiming | you jumped beautifully | 13:02 |
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| lixinhui_ | :) | 13:02 |
| Qiming | #topic newton work items | 13:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "newton work items (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:02 | |
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| Qiming | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-newton-workitems | 13:02 |
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| Qiming | any progress on stress testing last week? | 13:03 |
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| Qiming | I saw yanyan's rally work blocked for release-cut window | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes | 13:04 |
| yanyanhu | still waiting, guess still need to wait for a while | 13:04 |
| Qiming | is that patch the last one we will "beg" rally to merge in? | 13:04 |
| yanyanhu | :) | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, it is not necessary to add all them into rally repo | 13:05 |
| Qiming | yep | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | but letting them stay in rally side is better than keeping them inside senlin | 13:05 |
| Qiming | benefit? | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | so will first add plugins into our repo and migrate them into rally gradually | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | we don't need to hold them by ourselves | 13:05 |
| Qiming | but it will still be senlin team to maintain it | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | sure | 13:06 |
| Qiming | then what's the benefit? | 13:06 |
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| yanyanhu | just once there some structure refactoring inside rally, we will know at once if it breaks senlin plugin I think | 13:07 |
| Qiming | hopefully, we won't forget adding/modifying rally jobs when we change things ... | 13:07 |
| yanyanhu | sure | 13:07 |
| Qiming | that testing can be done at senlin gate as well | 13:07 |
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| Qiming | a little bit upset by the slow reviews there | 13:08 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes, me too... | 13:08 |
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| yanyanhu | looks like the team has no enough bandwidth for all these reviews... | 13:08 |
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| yanyanhu | but we do get lots of important comments :) | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | to help improve my patch and let me get better understand of rally | 13:09 |
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| Qiming | anyway, I agree we should do this at senlin repo at first, then migrate to rally step by step | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | this is my plan | 13:09 |
| Qiming | graet | 13:10 |
| Qiming | any other updates about benchmarking/performance testing? | 13:10 |
| Qiming | guess no | 13:10 |
| Qiming | moving on | 13:10 |
| yanyanhu | no other progress I think | 13:10 |
| Qiming | health management | 13:11 |
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| Qiming | I spent some time reading oslo.messaging code | 13:11 |
| Qiming | 2 findings | 13:11 |
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| Qiming | 1. the transport used for listeners is supposed to be different from the one used for RPC, that one has been fixed, although we still get a working listener there somehow | 13:12 |
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| Qiming | 2. when invoking 'get_notification_listener', we have an opportunity to specify the 'executor' | 13:13 |
| Qiming | which defaults to 'blocking' today | 13:13 |
| Qiming | other choices are 'threading', 'eventlet' | 13:13 |
| lixinhui_ | oh? | 13:14 |
| Qiming | I tried them both but had to revert to 'blocking' for the listeners to work properly | 13:14 |
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| lixinhui_ | what do the other two mean? | 13:14 |
| Qiming | the only pitfall is that we will get a warning from oslo.messaging saying that our listener may be hang forever listening to events | 13:14 |
| Qiming | that is acceptable | 13:15 |
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| Qiming | they are imported from package 'futurist' directly | 13:15 |
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| Qiming | that package provides options to execute taks in different flavors | 13:15 |
| Qiming | I don't have a lot bandwidth to dig into that | 13:15 |
| lixinhui_ | ok | 13:15 |
| Qiming | if anyone is interested in this, here is the doc: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/futurist/api.html#executors | 13:16 |
| Qiming | that is how oslo.message dispatches events | 13:16 |
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| lixinhui_ | ok | 13:16 |
| Qiming | LB bug fix, any news there? | 13:16 |
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| lixinhui_ | Two of three patches have been accepted | 13:17 |
| lixinhui_ | still this one https://review.openstack.org/325624 | 13:17 |
| Qiming | btw, someone stopped by on senlin channel asking for a working version of health policy | 13:17 |
| Qiming | he said he watched our presentation on austin summit | 13:17 |
| lixinhui_ | oh | 13:18 |
| lixinhui_ | I can provide one | 13:18 |
| Qiming | that is ringing a loud alarm to me | 13:18 |
| lixinhui_ | if he or she needs | 13:18 |
| Qiming | we should be very very very careful when delivering presentation/demos | 13:18 |
| lixinhui_ | Adam has some concerns | 13:18 |
| Qiming | unless we can ensure users can reproduce the demo easily using the public code base | 13:19 |
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| lixinhui_ | I think you have revised the health policy from WIP | 13:19 |
| lixinhui_ | right? | 13:19 |
| Qiming | or else, we will have difficulties attracting them to come back | 13:20 |
| Qiming | that health policy is still not working | 13:20 |
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| Qiming | the loop is not closed | 13:20 |
| Qiming | and fencing is not there yet | 13:20 |
| Qiming | people will git clone and try it and see that it doesn't work | 13:21 |
| Qiming | then they leave | 13:21 |
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| Qiming | so ... for the coming barcelona presentations, no matter which one(s) are accepted | 13:22 |
| Qiming | the demos used in those talks must work | 13:22 |
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| Qiming | the code/profile/policy has to show up in main tree | 13:22 |
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| Qiming | I'll spend time on health management this week | 13:23 |
| Qiming | try to close the loop asap | 13:23 |
| Qiming | let's move on? | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | one question | 13:24 |
| Qiming | shoot | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | does https://review.openstack.org/345916 fixes the issues xinhui mentioned? | 13:24 |
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| yanyanhu | about wait after listener is tarted | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | https://review.openstack.org/346390 | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | this one | 13:24 |
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| Qiming | pls check the bug report | 13:25 |
| Qiming | https://launchpad.net/bugs/1605869 | 13:25 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1605869 in senlin "hang: wait is waiting for stop to complete" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Cindia-blue (miaoxinhuili) | 13:25 |
| Qiming | it is not an error reported by oslo.messaging | 13:25 |
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| Qiming | oslo.messaging is too smart in this respect | 13:25 |
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| Qiming | when it detects we didn't set a timer when calling wait() | 13:26 |
| Qiming | it will warn us that the listener may listen forever | 13:26 |
| yanyanhu | I see | 13:26 |
| Qiming | thus a 'hang' | 13:26 |
| Qiming | actually, that is what we wanted in a listener thread | 13:26 |
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| Qiming | a dedicated listener thread | 13:27 |
| Qiming | okay, moving on | 13:27 |
| yanyanhu | just need to ensure stop is explicitly called before stoping health manager | 13:27 |
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| Qiming | yep, that will be desirable | 13:27 |
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| Qiming | however, in multi-engine setup, we don't have a way to gracefully shutdown all threads | 13:27 |
| Qiming | if we start a single engine, we can see that all threads are gracefully killed | 13:28 |
| Qiming | that is a broader problem to solve | 13:28 |
| yanyanhu | yes, it is | 13:28 |
| Qiming | moving on, documentation | 13:28 |
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| Qiming | I'm working on tutorial documentation for autoscaling today | 13:29 |
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| Qiming | to make auto-scaling work, I am using ceilometer + aodh + senlin | 13:29 |
| Qiming | many interesting/annoying findings | 13:29 |
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| Qiming | but finally, I got auto-scaling with cpu_util working now | 13:30 |
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| Qiming | though I know in theory it should work | 13:30 |
| joehuang | exit | 13:30 |
| Qiming | share some findings with you: | 13:30 |
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| Qiming | 1. aodh alarm-update cannot process --query parameters properly, we have to get --query specified properly when doing 'aodh alarm create' | 13:31 |
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| Qiming | 2. recent modifications to python-openstacksdk is breaking server details retrieval | 13:32 |
| yanyanhu | sounds like a bug? | 13:32 |
| Qiming | we cannot get 'image' and 'flavor' properties if we are using latest master | 13:32 |
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| yanyanhu | means senlin node-show -D will break as well? | 13:32 |
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| Qiming | yes, that one was broken as well | 13:32 |
| yanyanhu | I see... | 13:33 |
| Qiming | I have rebased senlin resources to resource2/proxy2 | 13:33 |
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| yanyanhu | great | 13:33 |
| Qiming | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/344662/ | 13:33 |
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| Qiming | to make that work, I have spent a lot time discussing with sdk team about the 'to_dict()' method which was removed from resource2.Resource | 13:34 |
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| Qiming | it will break all senlinclient resource show command | 13:34 |
| yanyanhu | yes, think so | 13:34 |
| yanyanhu | we use [''] now | 13:34 |
| Qiming | if you are interested in this, you can check the review history: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/331518/ | 13:35 |
| yanyanhu | not a backward compatible change | 13:35 |
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| Qiming | it took about one month to get that accepted | 13:35 |
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| Qiming | back to the auto-scaling experiment | 13:36 |
| yanyanhu | yes, noticed the discussion between you and brian | 13:36 |
| yanyanhu | will check it :) | 13:36 |
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| Qiming | this is how I created an alarm: | 13:36 |
| Qiming | aodh alarm create -t threshold --name c1a1 -m cpu_util --threshold 50 --comparison-operator gt --evaluation-periods 1 --period 60 --alarm-action http://node1:8778/v1/webhooks/518fc9b7-01e8-410a-ac34-59fb33cb398f/trigger?V=1 --repeat-actions True --query metadata.user_metadata.cluster=113707a0-8fdc-434f-b824-98fd706a5e0d | 13:36 |
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| Qiming | the tricky part is in the --query parameter, not well documented, and it is using 'pyparsing' | 13:37 |
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| Qiming | the docs says that '==' can be used, but it won't work | 13:37 |
| Qiming | no one is telling you that you should use 'metadata.user_metadata.cluster' for filtering | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | well, inconsistency in document again... | 13:38 |
| Qiming | had to read the source code to get it work | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | sure, I did that two and half years ago | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | when I first time try fitlering in ceilometer | 13:38 |
| Qiming | after this step, you won't get an alarm | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | still happening :) | 13:38 |
| Qiming | because in all the cpu_util samples, you won't see the nova metadata included | 13:39 |
| Qiming | then ceilometer cannot evaluate the samples, aodh cannot fire an alarm | 13:39 |
| yanyanhu | looks weird | 13:40 |
| Qiming | after reading the source code, I figured that I have to add one line into ceilometer.conf file: | 13:40 |
| Qiming | reserved_metadata_keys = cluster | 13:40 |
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| yanyanhu | what does that mean? | 13:40 |
| Qiming | after that, restart ceilometer compute agent | 13:40 |
| Qiming | the ceilometer compute pollster will now know that 'cluster' value in the nova.metadate should be reserved | 13:41 |
| Qiming | or else, ceilometer is dropping all metadata key-values, unless the keys are prefixed by 'metering.' | 13:41 |
| Qiming | I don't think this is documented anywhere | 13:41 |
| yanyanhu | I see | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | I recalled I met similar problem before | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | at the end of 2014 | 13:42 |
| Qiming | I'll document the process into the tutorial doc, so users will know how to make the whole thing work | 13:42 |
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| yanyanhu | needed to do some hack to address it | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | since this condition was not always satisfied | 13:43 |
| Qiming | yep | 13:43 |
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| Qiming | since haiwei is not online and no one is working on container support, we can skip the container profile item | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | not a pleasant experience :) | 13:44 |
| Qiming | engine, NODE_CREATE, NODE_DELETE | 13:44 |
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| Qiming | I think the problem is solved now | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | saw those patches | 13:44 |
| Qiming | I was thinking of deriving cluster actions from node actions so that policies will be respected | 13:44 |
| Qiming | but it turned out to be too complicated | 13:45 |
| yanyanhu | current solution is good I think | 13:45 |
| Qiming | I did a workaround, making policy aware of NODE_xxx actions | 13:45 |
| Qiming | that is making things much more clearer | 13:45 |
| yanyanhu | yes, and differentiate node actions derived from different sources | 13:45 |
| Qiming | so .. deleting that work item | 13:46 |
| Qiming | yep, we had that design/impl in place, these patches were just leveraging them | 13:46 |
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| yanyanhu | yea | 13:46 |
| Qiming | em ... need to add some release notes about this | 13:46 |
| yanyanhu | right :) | 13:46 |
| Qiming | zaqar receiver thing | 13:47 |
| Qiming | where are we? | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | no progress this week... | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | still pending for sdk support | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | and also document updating | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | I have made some local test on 'message' resource | 13:47 |
| Qiming | if sdk support is in, we will get a working version soon? | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | but still some problems need to fix | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | to figure out | 13:47 |
| Qiming | then grab wangfl | 13:48 |
| yanyanhu | nope, it is just for queue | 13:48 |
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| yanyanhu | yea | 13:48 |
| yanyanhu | he is working on that I think | 13:48 |
| yanyanhu | saw his patch | 13:48 |
| Qiming | okay | 13:48 |
| Qiming | then continue grabbing him when necessary, :) | 13:48 |
| Qiming | no update about event/notification from last week | 13:49 |
| yanyanhu | sure :) owe him a beer | 13:49 |
| Qiming | ok | 13:49 |
| Qiming | #topic newton deliverables | 13:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "newton deliverables (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:49 | |
| Qiming | guys, if you take a look at the newton release schedule | 13:49 |
| Qiming | #link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 13:49 |
| Qiming | you will see that we are at week R-10 | 13:50 |
| Qiming | that means we still have 10 weeks before the final 2.0.0 release | 13:50 |
| yanyanhu | a month left | 13:50 |
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| Qiming | if we consider newton-3 milestone, we only have 1 month | 13:51 |
| yanyanhu | yes, for feature freeze | 13:51 |
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| Qiming | hopefully, we can deliver what we planned at the beginning of this cycle | 13:51 |
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| Qiming | e.g. profile-validate, policy-validate, cluster-collect, cluster-do, health policy, notification, container profile | 13:51 |
| yanyanhu | also message type of receiver | 13:52 |
| elynn | I might got some spare time next week, hope we can finish that. | 13:52 |
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| yanyanhu | elynn, great :) | 13:52 |
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| Qiming | yep, time to step up and claim some items that most interested you | 13:52 |
| yanyanhu | know you are really trapping on some annoying stuff :) | 13:52 |
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| Qiming | that is life | 13:53 |
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| elynn | :) | 13:53 |
| yanyanhu | yea | 13:53 |
| yanyanhu | always :) | 13:53 |
| Qiming | never meant to be an easy one for anybody | 13:53 |
| lixinhui_ | :) | 13:53 |
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| Qiming | glad wie can still get things moving forward and even accomplish something we feel good | 13:54 |
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| Qiming | let's see what we can complete during the coming month | 13:54 |
| Qiming | #topic open discussions | 13:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:54 | |
| yanyanhu | oh, BTW, about the mascot | 13:54 |
| Qiming | right, I replied their email | 13:55 |
| yanyanhu | I guess forest? | 13:55 |
| yanyanhu | :P | 13:55 |
| Qiming | maybe just forest | 13:55 |
| yanyanhu | its an obvious choice for us | 13:55 |
| Qiming | that is what senlin means | 13:55 |
| lixinhui_ | agree | 13:55 |
| Qiming | we still have choices | 13:55 |
| Qiming | if you have some favorite animal | 13:55 |
| elynn | yes!that what senlin is :) | 13:55 |
| yanyanhu | forest is straightforward :) | 13:56 |
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| yanyanhu | easy to understand, I think the picture we always use in the slice is ok | 13:56 |
| Qiming | email from Heidi: | 13:56 |
| Qiming | Thank you so much for the reply! Of course I won’t mock you. Actually, I’m thrilled to know you already have a great mascot that works with this project. Senlin will have the first right of refusal on a forest since that’s already your logo. You might want to discuss with your team whether you intend the trees in your forest to look deciduous, evergreen, or a specific variety (stands of Aspen, for example). That can help guide our illustrator | 13:56 |
| Qiming | to make a forest that reflects what you like. | 13:56 |
| Qiming | Cheers, | 13:56 |
| yanyanhu | hope no conflict with other projects :P | 13:56 |
| Qiming | Heidi Joy | 13:56 |
| yanyanhu | haha | 13:57 |
| Qiming | deciduous, evergreen, or ... | 13:57 |
| yanyanhu | evergreen sounds good, haha | 13:57 |
| yanyanhu | for HA | 13:57 |
| Qiming | good point | 13:57 |
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| Qiming | 2 minutes left | 13:58 |
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| Qiming | thanks for joining boys and girls | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | no other topic from me | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | thanks | 13:59 |
| Qiming | will you all a happy night | 13:59 |
| Qiming | pleasant one | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | take good care of you baby :) | 13:59 |
| elynn | :) | 13:59 |
| Qiming | #endmeeting | 13:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 13:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 26 13:59:54 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 13:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-07-26-13.00.html | 13:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-07-26-13.00.txt | 13:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-07-26-13.00.log.html | 14:00 |
| lixinhui_ | u2 | 14:00 |
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| christx2 | hello | 14:54 |
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| saggi | ping xiangxinyong456 | 15:00 |
| xiangxinyong456 | hello | 15:00 |
| saggi | Do you want to chair the meeting or should I? | 15:00 |
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| xiangxinyong456 | saggi, you best. | 15:01 |
| saggi | :) | 15:01 |
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| saggi | #startmeeting smaug | 15:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 26 15:01:25 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is saggi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'smaug' | 15:01 |
| xiangxinyong456 | i am on my mobile | 15:01 |
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| saggi | Hi everyone | 15:01 |
| zhonghua-lee | hi | 15:01 |
| xiangxinyong456 | hello | 15:01 |
| saggi | Anyone else here? | 15:01 |
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| xyang1 | hi | 15:02 |
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| saggi | OK | 15:02 |
| saggi | Are we waiting for anyone? | 15:02 |
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| xyang1 | saggi: can I bring up something quickly? | 15:03 |
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| saggi | Sure | 15:03 |
| saggi | Though there is an open discussion portion at the end | 15:03 |
| xyang1 | saggi: I can wait to the end | 15:03 |
| saggi | cool | 15:03 |
| saggi | #topic Add pause and resume interface for scheduled operations | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add pause and resume interface for scheduled operations (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 15:03 | |
| saggi | IIRC We already have this | 15:04 |
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| zhonghua-lee | already have? | 15:05 |
| chenzeng | saggi:yes, does everybody take a look at this suggestion | 15:05 |
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| chenzeng | saggi:maybe we have not suppot these two apis | 15:06 |
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| saggi | Why not just change the status? | 15:06 |
| saggi | If status is disabled\paused we don't trigger | 15:06 |
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| saggi | no need to unregister in the API | 15:06 |
| chenzeng | because we have registered the opertion to the trigger in the memory | 15:06 |
| saggi | chenzeng: In memory we can unregister. But no in the DB. | 15:07 |
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| chenzeng | saggi:yes, so we have two steps | 15:07 |
| saggi | So if the user modifies the scheduler operation to have status="paused". We will unregister internally. | 15:08 |
| saggi | No need for new API paths | 15:08 |
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| chenzeng | saggi:as i know, we don't have the logic as you said | 15:09 |
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| saggi | chenzeng: We can add it. I think it's preferable to having new API paths for pause\resume | 15:10 |
| chenzeng | saggi:i agree | 15:11 |
| saggi | Good! | 15:12 |
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| saggi | Anything else on this topic? | 15:12 |
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| chenzeng | saggi:no | 15:12 |
| saggi | #topic Where to show the status of restoration? | 15:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Where to show the status of restoration? (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 15:12 | |
| saggi | This is an interesting question. | 15:12 |
| xiangxinyong | yeah | 15:12 |
| xiangxinyong | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/restorestate | 15:12 |
| zhonghua-lee | :) | 15:12 |
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| saggi | Don't we get this from HEAT? | 15:13 |
| saggi | What does it use? | 15:13 |
| xiangxinyong | saggi: yeah. we can get it from heat. | 15:13 |
| saggi | It could be added to the restore model. | 15:13 |
| saggi | we get the information from heat and retrieve it there. | 15:14 |
| saggi | Similar to how we do it for checkpoint. | 15:14 |
| xiangxinyong | saggi: it seems we are talking about another question | 15:14 |
| xiangxinyong | When the end user restore a checkpoint | 15:14 |
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| saggi | This is what I'm talking about. This creates a restore object. | 15:15 |
| xiangxinyong | we will add a record into the restore table | 15:15 |
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| xiangxinyong | could i think the restore object is put into restores table? | 15:15 |
| saggi | Could you rephrase that. I don't understand. | 15:16 |
| xiangxinyong | yeah | 15:16 |
| xiangxinyong | We have a db table named "Restores" to store the records when we restore from a checkpoint. | 15:17 |
| saggi | ok | 15:17 |
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| saggi | It should relate the the corresponding Heat operation | 15:18 |
| xiangxinyong | and the DB table "Restores" has a field named "Status" | 15:18 |
| xiangxinyong | and also we have a "Status" on the checkpoint | 15:19 |
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| zhonghua-lee | where to restore the status? | 15:19 |
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| xiangxinyong | the status of checkpoint include "Protecting" "Available" | 15:19 |
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| saggi | xiangxinyong: "protecting"? | 15:19 |
| saggi | restoring maybe | 15:19 |
| xiangxinyong | yeah | 15:19 |
| xiangxinyong | saggi: about this question: Where to show the status of restoration? | 15:20 |
| xiangxinyong | do you think we need to show "Restoring" on the checkpoint? | 15:20 |
| xiangxinyong | or just onlu show "Restoring" on the DB table "Restores" | 15:21 |
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| xiangxinyong | or both? | 15:21 |
| saggi | I think just in restores | 15:21 |
| saggi | Since it's not a status for the checkpoint | 15:22 |
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| saggi | The restore should point the the checkpoint | 15:22 |
| saggi | not the other way around | 15:22 |
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| xiangxinyong | so you think the status of checkpoint just only include the protecting and available? | 15:23 |
| saggi | Yes | 15:23 |
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| zhonghua-lee | saggi: so smaug will update the record in Restore table after restoration. am I right? | 15:23 |
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| saggi | yes | 15:23 |
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| zhonghua-lee | looks good | 15:24 |
| chenzeng | saggi:agree | 15:24 |
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| xiangxinyong | OK. understood. | 15:25 |
| saggi | #topic add policy for checkpoints management | 15:25 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "add policy for checkpoints management (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 15:25 | |
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| zhonghua-lee | ok | 15:25 |
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| zhonghua-lee | this proposal just want to add a policy for checkpoint management | 15:26 |
| saggi | This is what Schedule Operations are for. You can have one that limits the amount of checkpoints every night to 10. | 15:27 |
| zhonghua-lee | e.g. the end user want to keep three checkpoints for one plan. | 15:27 |
| zhonghua-lee | saggi: yes | 15:27 |
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| zhonghua-lee | but how about add this function in checkpoint management moudule? | 15:28 |
| saggi | I don't understand the suggestion | 15:28 |
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| yuvalbr | Hey, sorry for being late | 15:28 |
| zhonghua-lee | I mean we can add a moudule to manage the checkpoints | 15:28 |
| saggi | These kind of operation are by design relegated to the Operation Engine or some external Policy mechanism | 15:29 |
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| zhonghua-lee | what means for external Policy mechanism? | 15:30 |
| saggi | Tricircle | 15:31 |
| zhonghua-lee | smaug provide a Rest API to delete checkpoint? query checkpoints by plan? | 15:31 |
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| zhonghua-lee | the other module do this operation? | 15:31 |
| saggi | Something can use the Rest API to query and delete. | 15:32 |
| zhonghua-lee | I perfer to Smaug. | 15:32 |
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| saggi | It will need to handle the transaction | 15:32 |
| saggi | The problem with implementing it in Smaug is that we find that many users want to use their own policy mechanisms | 15:32 |
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| zhonghua-lee | saggi: yes | 15:32 |
| zhonghua-lee | if we add this function into Operation Engine | 15:33 |
| saggi | This is it's purpose. | 15:33 |
| zhonghua-lee | that will make the policy very complex | 15:33 |
| saggi | Why? | 15:33 |
| zhonghua-lee | not only for backup policy | 15:34 |
| zhonghua-lee | but also for checkpoints policy | 15:34 |
| saggi | I'm sorry, but I don't understand the problem. Could you please be more specific? | 15:34 |
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| xiangxinyong | saggi: zhonghua means that if some users want to keep only 3 checkpoints every plan in the bank | 15:35 |
| chenzeng | saggi: what's your opinion about question 'just keep 3 checkpoint for a scheduled protection operation which will generate 1 checkpoint every day' | 15:35 |
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| zhonghua-lee | yeah , chenzegn give the example | 15:36 |
| saggi | You can have an advance operation that creates and deletes. The operation engine is built for these kind of transaction. | 15:36 |
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| zhonghua-lee | operation extension sounds the best choice | 15:37 |
| chenzeng | saggi:so you want to add a new operation? | 15:37 |
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| zhonghua-lee | but how the operation know the new checkpoint created successfully? | 15:38 |
| chenzeng | this operation will invoke the api to create the checkpoint, and then check the number of checkpoint, if ecceed the 3, delete the oldest | 15:38 |
| saggi | chenzeng: Exactly | 15:39 |
| xiangxinyong | but if the user only use the method "protect now"? | 15:40 |
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| saggi | It will delete when the scheduled operation runs. | 15:41 |
| saggi | Since this is the point it will check for the number of checkpoints. | 15:41 |
| zhonghua-lee | xiangxinyong: you mean user create checkpoint manully? | 15:41 |
| saggi | We could add checkpoint MD to make sure they don't get counted. | 15:41 |
| xiangxinyong | zhonghua-lee: yeah | 15:41 |
| chenzeng | zhonghua-lee:the 'create checkpoint' api will return a id of checkpoint if it success | 15:41 |
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| zhonghua-lee | saggi: who will check when ceeating manully? | 15:42 |
| zhonghua-lee | the caller? | 15:42 |
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| saggi | create checkpoint returns an ID from the start. Not only for success. | 15:43 |
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| saggi | zhonghua-lee: yes | 15:43 |
| zhonghua-lee | chenzeng: yeah, but it not really success until the status changed | 15:43 |
| saggi | Whoever calls is responsible for tracking | 15:43 |
| zhonghua-lee | s/it/it is | 15:43 |
| saggi | zhonghua-lee: Even if it fails the scheduled op needs to log it. | 15:44 |
| zhonghua-lee | saggi:but the number is not correct | 15:45 |
| chenzeng | zhonghua-lee:we can ignore the checkpoint which is created this time, just make sure the success checkpoint will not exceed 3. | 15:45 |
| zhonghua-lee | checkpoint number | 15:45 |
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| saggi | of course | 15:45 |
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| xiangxinyong | so it seems like whoever it invokes "createcheckpoint" will check the checkpoint amount? | 15:46 |
| zhonghua-lee | chenzeng: you mean we only care about the chenckpoints model numbers | 15:46 |
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| zhonghua-lee | ok, I agree | 15:47 |
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| saggi | I'm not sure that manual checkpoints should count. But this is a matter of policy. | 15:47 |
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| saggi | In any case, it has to be done in the operation engine. And the details are policy dependent :). | 15:48 |
| zhonghua-lee | let me think it over | 15:48 |
| zhonghua-lee | saggi: thanks | 15:48 |
| saggi | #topic Mark the source of checkpoint data | 15:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mark the source of checkpoint data (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 15:49 | |
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| saggi | This puts us back with the suggestion of having user defined MD on the checkpoints. | 15:49 |
| saggi | It's fine by me as long as it can only be set on checkpoint creation and can't be modified. | 15:50 |
| xiangxinyong | chenying sumbit this topic. | 15:50 |
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| zhonghua-lee | I think it's just for record | 15:50 |
| saggi | This means that scheduled operations can just add an MD key ("CHECKPOINT_SOURCE": "SCHEDULED_OPERATION-123") | 15:50 |
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| xiangxinyong | saggi: like that. | 15:51 |
| saggi | If it doesn't have this we can assume it was manual or some other source that doesn't wish to identify. | 15:51 |
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| saggi | similar to custom volume MD in cinder | 15:51 |
| xiangxinyong | add a parameter in the createcheckpoint interface | 15:52 |
| xiangxinyong | CHECKPOINT_SOURCE: Scheduled/Now | 15:52 |
| saggi | no | 15:52 |
| xiangxinyong | ? | 15:52 |
| saggi | we just add the ability to add any user metadata. | 15:52 |
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| saggi | and use the convention for 'smaug-checkpoint-source' to mark the source | 15:53 |
| saggi | if it's missing we assume manual since the scheduled operation will add it | 15:53 |
| saggi | and we would recommend other tools to add their own name in the entry | 15:53 |
| saggi | we need a proper blueprint for this though | 15:53 |
| saggi | I'll write one tomorrow. | 15:54 |
| zhonghua-lee | saggi: +1 | 15:54 |
| saggi | We could comment on that. | 15:54 |
| xiangxinyong | ok. we could add the checkpoint source into metadata | 15:54 |
| xiangxinyong | :) | 15:54 |
| saggi | yes | 15:54 |
| saggi | We'll continue this on the blueprint when I put it up. | 15:55 |
| chenzeng | saggi:great | 15:55 |
| xiangxinyong | saggi: thanks | 15:55 |
| saggi | #topic open discussion | 15:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 15:55 | |
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| saggi | xyang1: You had something you wanted to discuss | 15:55 |
| xyang1 | saggi: yes | 15:55 |
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| xyang1 | saggi: about the discussions on cinder replication spec | 15:56 |
| xyang1 | saggi: We talked about it at our mid cycle last week | 15:56 |
| saggi | Yes | 15:56 |
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| xyang1 | so the suggestion is fir smaug team to submit another spec about this requirement | 15:57 |
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| saggi | xyang1: Instead of the current one? | 15:57 |
| xyang1 | also we like to have an irc meeting to discuss | 15:57 |
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| saggi | xyang1: Sure, do you want to do it on the Cinder weekly spot or should we do it out of band? | 15:58 |
| xyang1 | saggi: the one I am working on is cinder replication group, you should submit another spec on hide namespace | 15:58 |
| saggi | xyang1: Sure | 15:58 |
| xyang1 | saggi: we could probably add an item to cinder meeting | 15:58 |
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| xyang1 | saggi: if it runs over, we can schedule a separate one to follow up | 15:59 |
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| saggi | I could try and have something ready for tomorrow's IRC | 15:59 |
| saggi | It's not complicated | 15:59 |
| xyang1 | sure | 15:59 |
| xyang1 | can you add an item to the meeting, I can add it too | 16:00 |
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| chenying | hi | 16:01 |
| xyang1 | saggi: ? | 16:01 |
| zhonghua-lee | time out. | 16:01 |
| chenying | I have a problom with my network. | 16:01 |
| * saggi is looking for the meeting wiki | 16:01 | |
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| saggi | Found it | 16:02 |
| saggi | xyang1: I'll add it now and update tomorrow with an etherpad link for the first bp draft | 16:02 |
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| xyang1 | great | 16:02 |
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| saggi | xyang1: So we'll pick it up tomorrow | 16:03 |
| xyang1 | sure | 16:03 |
| xiangxinyong | good night | 16:04 |
| saggi | Goof meeting | 16:04 |
| saggi | Thanks everybody | 16:04 |
| saggi | #endmeeting | 16:04 |
| xyang1 | thanks | 16:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:04 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 26 16:04:26 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:04 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-07-26-15.01.html | 16:04 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-07-26-15.01.txt | 16:04 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-07-26-15.01.log.html | 16:04 |
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| mmedvede | #startmeeting third-party | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 26 17:00:20 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mmedvede. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 17:00 |
| mmedvede | hi there, anyone around for third-party WG meeting? | 17:00 |
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| mmedvede | nothing on agenda today | 17:01 |
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| mmedvede | #endmeeting | 17:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:08 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 26 17:08:27 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:08 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-07-26-17.00.html | 17:08 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-07-26-17.00.txt | 17:08 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-07-26-17.00.log.html | 17:08 |
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| stevemar | o/ | 18:00 |
| breton | o/ | 18:00 |
| browne | o/ | 18:00 |
| topol | o/ | 18:00 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:00 |
| crinkle | o/ | 18:00 |
| shaleh | \o | 18:00 |
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| lamt | o/ | 18:00 |
| nk2527 | o/ | 18:00 |
| jaugustine_ | o/ | 18:00 |
| topol | I didnt get the ping | 18:00 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 18:00 |
| dstanek | o/ | 18:00 |
| lbragstad | ping ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gagehugo, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, jaugustine, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, MaxPC, morgan, nkinder, notmorgan, raildo, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek | 18:00 |
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| stevemar | no one did yet topol :O | 18:01 |
| dolphm | \o/ | 18:01 |
| rodrigods | o/ | 18:01 |
| rderose | o/ | 18:01 |
| ayoung | Oyez | 18:01 |
| stevemar | #startmeeting keystone | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 26 18:01:14 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| topol | its like the resistance killed the ping | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| gyee | \o | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:01 |
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| stevemar | topol: spies 4 life | 18:01 |
| topol | +++ | 18:01 |
| stevemar | agenda https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting | 18:01 |
| roxanaghe | o/ | 18:01 |
| ayoung | anything to discuss since everyone scooted early from the Midcycle? | 18:01 |
| stevemar | thanks everyone for coming to the midcycle! | 18:02 |
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| lbragstad | thanks cburgess for helping host! | 18:02 |
| stevemar | and notmorgan for organizing :) | 18:02 |
| cburgess | Sure no problem | 18:02 |
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| topol | +++ Thanks cburgess | 18:02 |
| ayoung | anyone care if I clear authorship colors from the Agenda? Hard to read as is | 18:02 |
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| ayoung | cburgess, thanks so much! | 18:03 |
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| stevemar | ayoung: you can change a setting in etherpad so you don't see colors | 18:03 |
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| stevemar | dolphm already posted a summary of the retrospective: http://dolphm.com/retrospective-on-openstack-midcycles/ | 18:03 |
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| stevemar | i'll be posting a summary on big topics | 18:03 |
| topol | good job dolphm | 18:03 |
| stevemar | but if you could not attend, then check out https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-newton-midcycle | 18:03 |
| henrynash | an excellent midcycle | 18:04 |
| lbragstad | ayoung under the settings wheel select/deselect authorship colors. | 18:04 |
| stevemar | its got pretty decent notes | 18:04 |
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| dolphm | hoping other projects find it useful, and we learn something in return | 18:04 |
| bknudson | hopefully we'll remember to look at it for the next midcycle. | 18:04 |
| bknudson | maybe we need a checklist. | 18:04 |
| stevemar | bknudson: definitely | 18:04 |
| gyee | nice summary | 18:04 |
| dolphm | bknudson: i thought about structuring it that way - it's not far off | 18:04 |
| stevemar | especially for organizers | 18:05 |
| * rodrigods has a lot to catch up | 18:05 | |
| lbragstad | s/bullet points/check boxes/ | 18:05 |
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| stevemar | first topic coming up | 18:05 |
| dolphm | i found it'd be too tempting to lose the "why's" if i went straight to a checklist | 18:05 |
| stevemar | #topic nasty bugs that need triaging and fixing before we release | 18:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "nasty bugs that need triaging and fixing before we release (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:05 | |
| samueldmq | hi all | 18:05 |
| topol | dolphm the justifications are very helpful | 18:05 |
| raildo | o/ | 18:06 |
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| lbragstad | dolphm topol agreed | 18:06 |
| stevemar | bug 1606426, bug 1604479, bug 1602407, and bug 1600393 | 18:06 |
| openstack | bug 1606426 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "Upgrading to Mitaka casues significant slow down on user-list " [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1606426 - Assigned to Ron De Rose (ronald-de-rose) | 18:06 |
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| openstack | bug 1604479 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "tenantId/default_project_id missing on Keystone service user in Mitaka" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1604479 - Assigned to Kam Nasim (knasim-wrs) | 18:06 |
| openstack | bug 1602407 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "MySQL tests significantly slower than PostgreSQL tests" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1602407 | 18:06 |
| openstack | bug 1600393 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "AttributeError: 'list' object has no attribute 'items'" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1600393 | 18:06 |
| breton | i am investigating 1606426 | 18:06 |
| stevemar | i did a preliminary review of open bugs and those were nasty ones | 18:06 |
| dolphm | those all sound pretty bad | 18:06 |
| stevemar | thanks breton | 18:06 |
| crinkle | 1602407 i don't think is a keystone issue | 18:06 |
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| stevemar | any one else want to jump on one (if you're not busy with reviews/features)? | 18:07 |
| stevemar | crinkle: yeah, thanks for looking into that one | 18:07 |
| dstanek | the mysql vs. postgres sounds like an interesting one, but is it keystone specific? | 18:07 |
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| stevemar | dstanek: see crinkle's comment ^ :) | 18:07 |
| crinkle | dstanek: i don't believe so, i saw the same thing running the nova tests | 18:07 |
| ayoung | "MySQL tests significantly slower than PostgreSQL tests" so we are going to swtich to Postgres? | 18:07 |
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| dolphm | crinkle: should it be marked as incomplete or invalid? | 18:07 |
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| ayoung | MySQL is a bug? | 18:07 |
| bknudson | it's possible that the live tests are doing something wrong in the setup | 18:08 |
| stevemar | dolphm: maybe incomplete for now? i'd like to see if clarkb has any other comments on it | 18:08 |
| dstanek | crinkle: could it be a misuse of certain features in our code or is it truly the db? | 18:08 |
| bknudson | like not re-using the database or something | 18:08 |
| dstanek | i wouldn't mark it as invalid until we know why it's a problem | 18:08 |
| crinkle | dolphm: probably yes but i'm not sure which project it should be filed under | 18:08 |
| crinkle | dstanek: i think it's the db connector engine | 18:08 |
| samueldmq | bknudson: good point | 18:09 |
| stevemar | crinkle: oslo.db and nova would be good starts | 18:09 |
| stevemar | since we know nova is also affected | 18:09 |
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| stevemar | anyone know Kam from bug 1604479 ? | 18:09 |
| openstack | bug 1604479 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "tenantId/default_project_id missing on Keystone service user in Mitaka" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1604479 - Assigned to Kam Nasim (knasim-wrs) | 18:09 |
| dstanek | crinkle: can you document in the bug how you came to that conclusion so i can duplicate? | 18:09 |
| crinkle | dstanek: i did | 18:09 |
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| dstanek | crinkle: cool, thanks. i'll take a look today then | 18:09 |
| henrynash | stevemar: so I conversed with him a bit on that | 18:10 |
| gyee | henrynash, is that bug reproducible? | 18:10 |
| henrynash | stevemar: I think the issues is that the services users weren't created with default projects | 18:10 |
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| rodrigods | crinkle, great investigation, btw | 18:11 |
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| crinkle | rodrigods: ty | 18:12 |
| henrynash | stevemar, gyee: and (perhaps) with how we now map v2 from v3, there is a comment saying don;t but tennatID attribute in the entity if the value of devault projet is None | 18:12 |
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| gyee | henrynash, we don't touch the default_project_id, even with local user migration | 18:12 |
| dolphm | rderose: have you looked at that bug? | 18:12 |
| ayoung | is it possible that the "user" table is conflicting with something in Postgresql? | 18:13 |
| stevemar | henrynash: if the service wasn't created with a default project that's fine, but if he had data there then it should still work and have been migrated | 18:13 |
| henrynash | gyee: I don't think there is anything wrong with our migration | 18:13 |
| dolphm | ayoung: we've always had a user table | 18:13 |
| ayoung | that bug report looks suspiciously like postgres is executing a view when doing select * from user; | 18:13 |
| gyee | I am very confused by the bug description, especially comment #8 | 18:13 |
| ayoung | dolphm, I know, and I think that user is a reserved word in postgres. | 18:14 |
| stevemar | all, we don't have to diagnose them all *here* :) | 18:14 |
| rderose | dolphm: I did briefly, but as henrynash says, I think the issue was that the services weren't created with a default project | 18:14 |
| stevemar | it was more of a call to action :) | 18:14 |
| dolphm | ayoung: yeah, the final query makes no sense in the context of a keystone db | 18:14 |
| rderose | default_project_id remained in the user table; wasn't moved | 18:14 |
| dolphm | rderose: they should still have the attribute in the API though | 18:14 |
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| rderose | dolphm: true, I was going to look at it further, but already assigned to Kam, who said he had a solution | 18:14 |
| stevemar | i can get jamie to diagnose the last one since it's probably middleware or auth related :P | 18:15 |
| rderose | dolphm: was waiting on him | 18:15 |
| henrynash | gyee, stevemar: I'll drive resolution on https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1604479 | 18:15 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1604479 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "tenantId/default_project_id missing on Keystone service user in Mitaka" [Critical,New] - Assigned to Kam Nasim (knasim-wrs) | 18:15 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:15 |
| stevemar | rderose: kam seems afk, don't wait too long if it's a critical bug | 18:15 |
| stevemar | rderose ^ thanks henrynash | 18:15 |
| stevemar | rderose: you got a lot on your plate already :P | 18:15 |
| rderose | stevemar :) you keep saying that | 18:15 |
| gyee | henrynash, go get'em tiger! | 18:16 |
| stevemar | and you keep adding to it | 18:16 |
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| stevemar | rderose: glutton for punishment! | 18:16 |
| dstanek | / join #plugdj | 18:16 |
| stevemar | dstanek is a DJ in his spare time | 18:16 |
| dstanek | lol, sorry! | 18:16 |
| bknudson | dstanek is bored. | 18:16 |
| stevemar | bknudson: ++ | 18:16 |
| rderose | stevemar: call me what you want, but at least I'm not a cheater! | 18:16 |
| stevemar | lol | 18:17 |
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| stevemar | shhh | 18:17 |
| lbragstad | lol | 18:17 |
| stevemar | #topic keep plugging away with code reviews for new features | 18:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "keep plugging away with code reviews for new features (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:17 | |
| stevemar | #link https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/newton-3 | 18:17 |
| dstanek | rderose: are you sure? | 18:17 |
| rderose | dstanek: not really | 18:17 |
| stevemar | most of the BPs are in good shape | 18:17 |
| stevemar | anyone want to deprecate something in newton before i mark the BP as implemented? | 18:17 |
| samueldmq | when is n3 happening ? just to state it here in the meeting | 18:18 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: ^ | 18:18 |
| lbragstad | R-5 | 18:18 |
| stevemar | Aug 29-02R-5 newton-3 milestone | 18:18 |
| lbragstad | Aug 29 - Sept 02 | 18:18 |
| breton | pff, still a month to go | 18:18 |
| stevemar | we also need to add henrynash's migrate complete stuff | 18:18 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: lbragstad thanks! | 18:18 |
| stevemar | breton: it'll fly by :) | 18:18 |
| dstanek | stevemar: nothing specific that i want to deprecate, but i'd be more than happy to review deprecations if we have them | 18:18 |
| stevemar | dstanek: all existing ones are merged | 18:19 |
| stevemar | i'll mark it as complete | 18:19 |
| gyee | deprecate the mongo dogpile backend if we haven't already | 18:19 |
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| stevemar | so if you're looking for stuff to review, those are always available | 18:19 |
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| stevemar | gyee: that'll be an oslo change, bug them | 18:19 |
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| gyee | stevemar, sure | 18:20 |
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| stevemar | #topic one last review for migrate complete | 18:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "one last review for migrate complete (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:20 | |
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| stevemar | i think this is ready: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/337680/ | 18:20 |
| dstanek | gyee: i think ours can be deleted now | 18:20 |
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| gyee | dstanek, yes | 18:20 |
| xek | stevemar, I just posted a comment on the spec | 18:20 |
| stevemar | dstanek: it's just an entry point, check the existing warning, i dont remember when it was changed | 18:21 |
| stevemar | xek: what was the comment? | 18:21 |
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| stevemar | nooo -1 | 18:21 |
| dstanek | stevemar: deprecated in M and to be removed in +1 | 18:21 |
| stevemar | dstanek: there ya go, reference removed-as-of-newton | 18:21 |
| xek | stevemar, I think there is a problem, where some instances can read outdated data in the scenario outlined in the spec | 18:22 |
| stevemar | henrynash: xek has some comments | 18:22 |
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| henrynash | xex: ok, I'll look | 18:22 |
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| dstanek | xek: yes, that is a good point you brought up | 18:23 |
| xek | adding a step in between will fix it, I hope it doesn't get too complicated | 18:23 |
| stevemar | xek: would you consider your comment a stopper or can we start implementation now (i think we can based on my understand of it) | 18:23 |
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| samueldmq | that should be a minor update in the spec | 18:24 |
| rodrigods | samueldmq, ++ | 18:24 |
| samueldmq | and just adpt it in the implementation | 18:24 |
| samueldmq | adopt | 18:24 |
| xek | I think we can start implementing it, the spec is somewhat high level, the devils are always in the details | 18:25 |
| stevemar | :) | 18:25 |
| henrynash | xek: always! | 18:25 |
| stevemar | okay, unless someone has something against the idea now, i'll approve the next revision | 18:25 |
| dstanek | basically that means that release n will read and write from both columns and only in release n+1 can we actually just use the new column? | 18:25 |
| samueldmq | but this is conceptual, I believe the spec could be easily updated | 18:25 |
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| samueldmq | henrynash: ^ just fixing a sentence/paragraph? :) | 18:26 |
| bknudson | having to keep columns around for an entire release isn't going to work for us since we're releasing from master. | 18:26 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: want us to merge it this week right ? | 18:26 |
| xek | dstanek, it can still be done in one release, but there would be to changes of the configuration / data compatibility mode | 18:26 |
| * ayoung has to check out soon (double booked on meetings) but will leave client up and will field any questions directed at /me in #openstack-keystone | 18:26 | |
| henrynash | stevemar, xek: and of course we don't support on-the-fly migration in N anyway, but it woul dbe good to get the sequence correct | 18:26 |
| xek | *two changes | 18:26 |
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| dstanek | xek: that means that all keystones would need to get the new configuration at the exact same time right? | 18:27 |
| stevemar | xek henrynash thanks | 18:27 |
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| henrynash | bknudson: I am absolutely goingto make sure this lets someone run close to master and still do rolling upgrades | 18:27 |
| xek | dstanek, if there is that additional step of writing to both columns and reading from the new one, then no | 18:27 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: good point. update config/restart service consistently | 18:27 |
| dstanek | samueldmq: not so sure it's just a sentence change. i at least want to look at the spec again with this new information | 18:27 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: okay. agree it's worth it to take a look at it again as a whole to make sure it looks correct | 18:28 |
| dstanek | who is going to make the update? | 18:28 |
| stevemar | dstanek: henrynash volunteered | 18:29 |
| henrynash | stevemar: yep, down to me | 18:29 |
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| stevemar | dstanek: give it a once over when it's updated | 18:29 |
| dstanek | coolio... henrynash can you kick me when you get it done so i can have a peek | 18:29 |
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| stevemar | may i recommend a poke rather than a kick | 18:29 |
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| henrynash | dstanek: absolutely | 18:30 |
| gyee | hah | 18:30 |
| stevemar | #topic MFA = password + TOTP | 18:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "MFA = password + TOTP (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:30 | |
| stevemar | this is a fun topic... | 18:30 |
| henrynash | (poke with toe extended) | 18:30 |
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| stevemar | gyee: you're up | 18:30 |
| gyee | I like the MFA patch, an elegant solution | 18:30 |
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| gyee | problem is how do we make it backward compatible | 18:30 |
| gyee | we have two options as commented in the review | 18:31 |
| bknudson | it's opt-in, right? | 18:31 |
| gyee | bknudson, opt-in can be done in two different ways | 18:31 |
| gyee | 1) do not set a totp credential | 18:31 |
| stevemar | bknudson: sort of? | 18:31 |
| gyee | 2) explicitly configure the passwordtotp plugin | 18:31 |
| gyee | I like 2) for a number of reasons | 18:32 |
| gyee | 1) we save an extra roundtrip to the backend for credential lookup | 18:32 |
| stevemar | gyee: i think it should be it's own incase the authenticator gets broken or some nonsense | 18:32 |
| bknudson | configuring passwordtotp means that using methods: ["password"] does password:totp? | 18:32 |
| dstanek | i also like #2, but i would make it MFAPlugin so you can configure it to use any other plugins, not just password and totp | 18:33 |
| bknudson | or do I have to do methods: ["passwordtotp"] | 18:33 |
| gyee | bknudson, just "password" | 18:33 |
| gyee | so we don't have to change the clients | 18:33 |
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| gyee | no need for another plugin on the client side | 18:33 |
| bknudson | but then every user has to do totp, right? | 18:34 |
| stevemar | not changing the clients would make adoption easier | 18:34 |
| bknudson | like service users? | 18:34 |
| stevemar | bknudson: nope | 18:34 |
| lbragstad | well - don't the clients have to append the totp? | 18:34 |
| dstanek | lbragstad: yes | 18:34 |
| stevemar | bknudson: there will be a check to see if the authenticated user *has* any TOTP credentials | 18:34 |
| lbragstad | so there is a client change required | 18:34 |
| gyee | bknudson, no, it is teeing off on the credential lookup | 18:34 |
| stevemar | bknudson: if no credentials, then regular password | 18:34 |
| bknudson | oh, it still does credential lookup | 18:34 |
| dstanek | bknudson: if you have a totp secret it would force you to use it | 18:35 |
| gyee | only users have a totp credential will be participate in totp | 18:35 |
| stevemar | if it has credentials, then it'll do password then passcode (totp) | 18:35 |
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| bknudson | the credential lookup needs to be optional otherwise that's going to slow down token issue. | 18:35 |
| gyee | bknudson, right, that's why I suggested option #2 | 18:35 |
| stevemar | thats another aspect | 18:35 |
| gyee | make the plugin explicit | 18:35 |
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| stevemar | gyee: okay, i think we need to go with #2 | 18:35 |
| stevemar | it'll be more "opt-in" like that | 18:36 |
| gyee | stevemar, alllrighty then | 18:36 |
| stevemar | we'll need to create a new auth plugin :( | 18:36 |
| gyee | stevemar, no, even #2 does not require client-side changes | 18:36 |
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| lbragstad | is that a bad thing? | 18:36 |
| stevemar | gyee: how so? | 18:36 |
| gyee | just keystone.conf changes | 18:36 |
| stevemar | lbragstad: would be nice to be able to do it out of box | 18:36 |
| gyee | password = PasswordTOTP | 18:37 |
| stevemar | gyee: that'll make it for the whole cloud | 18:37 |
| bknudson | is there going to be a keystoneauth plugin, also? | 18:37 |
| lbragstad | gyee the clients need to know how to append the totp to the password | 18:37 |
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| gyee | stevemar, no, still toggle on the totp credential | 18:37 |
| lbragstad | i thought in order for people to use the new feature, they'd need a new client that supports totp | 18:37 |
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| stevemar | lbragstad: check the patch, you'll see why | 18:38 |
| gyee | lbragstad, no, on the client side, just <passcode> + <password> | 18:38 |
| gyee | bknudson, no client-side changes needed | 18:38 |
| lbragstad | oh - so the user just passes that *as* the password and the plugin doesn't concatenate them... | 18:38 |
| gyee | right | 18:38 |
| lbragstad | gotit | 18:38 |
| gyee | the magic happens at the server side | 18:39 |
| dstanek | so with this in play users will have to do something different than they do now and we should document that | 18:39 |
| bknudson | the password keystoneauth plugin is going to be useless, it will try to refresh the token with the old totp value. | 18:39 |
| gyee | dstanek, we should document the behavior | 18:39 |
| stevemar | dstanek: only if they have totp credentials | 18:39 |
| lbragstad | bknudson yeah - that would be a problem | 18:39 |
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| gyee | bknudson, yes, token refresh will be a bit problematic | 18:39 |
| stevemar | eek | 18:40 |
| clarkb | is there a plan for how keystoneauth will reup tokens using this? | 18:40 |
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| gyee | but for MFA, we never have a good solution for token refresh anyway | 18:40 |
| lbragstad | token refresh will have to be user initiated... | 18:40 |
| topol | bknudson great catch! | 18:40 |
| dstanek | stevemar: agreed. as a user though it may be confusing? | 18:40 |
| bknudson | if the auth plugin had the key it could generate a new totp value. | 18:40 |
| lbragstad | well - token refresh and automation in general gets harder with more than one factor | 18:40 |
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| gyee | remember, totp is not really intended for non-interactive users | 18:40 |
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| stevemar | this is all ocata work anyway | 18:41 |
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| lbragstad | glad we're having the discussion early though | 18:41 |
| gyee | stevemar, we can't sneak it in? :( | 18:41 |
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| samueldmq | how will this affect other libraries like horizon auth lib ? | 18:41 |
| dstanek | gyee: noooo! | 18:41 |
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| topol | gyee, what could go wrong??? | 18:42 |
| gyee | nothing could go wrong | 18:42 |
| stevemar | gyee: not a chance :P | 18:42 |
| topol | death or glory gyee in the house | 18:42 |
| gyee | it works, guaranteed | 18:42 |
| stevemar | gyee: unless you've proven that you've thought of all the edge cases | 18:42 |
| lbragstad | (famous last words)? | 18:42 |
| bknudson | you can deploy the plugin internallly and tell us how it goes. | 18:42 |
| stevemar | hehe | 18:42 |
| topol | if I had a dime everytime I heard that... | 18:42 |
| gyee | I only use the 80/20 rule | 18:43 |
| gyee | when it comes to design | 18:43 |
| stevemar | gyee: just upgrade weekly like bknudson does | 18:43 |
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| gyee | ++ | 18:43 |
| stevemar | gyee: next topic? | 18:43 |
| gyee | that's all I have | 18:43 |
| dstanek | 80% this should work, 20% close enough | 18:43 |
| stevemar | we didn't end on anything here | 18:43 |
| lbragstad | smh | 18:44 |
| stevemar | #topic should PCI-DSS lockout include LDAP | 18:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "should PCI-DSS lockout include LDAP (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:44 | |
| stevemar | rderose: ^ | 18:44 |
| gyee | I thought we are going with #2 | 18:44 |
| rderose | The lockout feature locks out a user after x number of failed auth attempts. Currently, it's specific to the SQL backend driver for identity. However, we've had a request to include LDAP as well. | 18:44 |
| rderose | The idea being that a user is locked out of keystone, but not locked out of all corporate systems. | 18:44 |
| rderose | LDAP services typically do have a lockout policy, but doesn't allow you to only lockout a specific application. | 18:44 |
| stevemar | rderose: selfishly, this is not my problem :P | 18:44 |
| rderose | exactly ;) | 18:44 |
| shaleh | rderose: how hard is it to make it an option? | 18:44 |
| rderose | I'm on the side of not adding LDAP, as the LDAP lockout is expected behavior, but want to hear your thoughts. | 18:44 |
| shaleh | I can see some wanting and some not | 18:44 |
| dstanek | gyee: stevemar: yes, #2 with docs on how users must change, token refresh issues and other corner cases | 18:44 |
| rderose | shaleh: not hard | 18:45 |
| gyee | dstanek, amen, brother! | 18:45 |
| topol | it was stakeholder requested by AT&T | 18:45 |
| shaleh | rderose: I have worked with real hard cases that insist on locking early and often :-) | 18:45 |
| topol | so its causing real pain | 18:45 |
| stevemar | dstanek: gyee theres a spec out there for the mfa stuff, comment on the spec | 18:45 |
| bknudson | oh, I thought this was moving it into the manager and enforcing there. | 18:45 |
| gyee | stevemar, yes will do | 18:45 |
| bknudson | I would be fine if this was configurable in the ldap backend. | 18:45 |
| shaleh | I think an option, disabled by default is the right path. | 18:46 |
| stevemar | bknudson: elaborate? | 18:46 |
| dstanek | topol: so they wanted a lockout shorter in openstack that didn't lockout a user from the corporate system? | 18:46 |
| bknudson | I thought it was going to be a global config option so enforced on every backend | 18:46 |
| gyee | lockout is done at shadow user right? | 18:46 |
| topol | I believe the issues is through OpenStack/Keystone folks could repeatedly lock out LDAP. | 18:46 |
| samueldmq | if it"s in the manager, maybe have a list of backends it apply ? | 18:46 |
| bknudson | but if it was a config per backend I'd be fine with that. | 18:46 |
| gyee | is that the whole point for shadow users, consistency? | 18:46 |
| topol | dstanek yes! | 18:46 |
| lbragstad | bknudson meaning that if you were to deploy an ldap backend you could opt into using the lockout provided by ldap, or choose a more strict lockout through keystone config | 18:46 |
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| dstanek | topol: isn't that why corporate locks exist? | 18:47 |
| topol | keystone lockout ok, LDAP lockout bit corp headach | 18:47 |
| topol | must have been happening too much initiated from OpenStack | 18:47 |
| dstanek | it's no different then the user using the wrong password (or getting attacked) on their email...i'm surprised they care | 18:47 |
| gyee | lockout is a *keystone* policy | 18:47 |
| bknudson | lbragstad: yes, I agree with that. | 18:48 |
| browne | the ldap server may already have a lockout configured | 18:48 |
| rderose | lbragstad bknudson: in that case, why not just enforce lockout for SQL and LDAP | 18:48 |
| topol | we can go back and ask Tan from AT&T to explain the diff | 18:48 |
| stevemar | topol: so our internal messaging system relies on our LDAP, if i log into that thing 10x i'll be locked out of my corporate credentials too. | 18:48 |
| lbragstad | right - so the only case that would make sense would be to set keystone's lockout to a smaller value than the corp system | 18:48 |
| stevemar | topol: we don't change it there | 18:48 |
| lbragstad | otherwise its going to be confusing user experience | 18:48 |
| dstanek | topol: did they publish their usecase? | 18:48 |
| henrynash | lbragstad: the LDAP corpaorte lockout will happen on not depending on the config of LDAP, we can't opt in/out of that....we could only augment with a keystone if we chose to allow you to opt in to that | 18:49 |
| topol | dstanek. dont think so. just discussed at midcycle | 18:49 |
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| stevemar | lamt: did the login happen with the CLI or horizon? | 18:49 |
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| lbragstad | henrynash right | 18:49 |
| lamt | CLI | 18:49 |
| stevemar | maybe this is an issue with branding or lack of docs about what credentials to use? | 18:49 |
| lamt | the use case we have, not published, is that using keystone, we can send incorrect credential to LDAP, so the LDAP lockout policy kicks in | 18:50 |
| lamt | and locks the users out of the corporate LDAP | 18:50 |
| stevemar | but ... if i'm logging into something with "stevemar@ca.ibm.com" << i *know* i better use my corporate password | 18:50 |
| dstanek | lamt: do you'd have a more stick keystone lockout policy? | 18:50 |
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| rderose | henrynash lbragstad: all PCI is opt-in, but don't think we need a separate config for SQL and LDAP | 18:50 |
| stevemar | this is outside of PCI | 18:50 |
| dstanek | for instance, ldap locks after 5 tries and keystone after 4... | 18:50 |
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| bknudson | being more strict or not doesn't make much sense... if you allow 10 for keystone and 11 for ldap there might be 5 invalid ldap attempts already from another app. | 18:51 |
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| dstanek | bknudson: yep, it only helps you in the case where there are no pending bad logins | 18:51 |
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| lamt | it is true that there may be bad pending logins from other application | 18:52 |
| lbragstad | this feels a little like the PCI implementation from SQL is bleeding into LDAP | 18:52 |
| stevemar | lbragstad: thing is, it's independent of pci | 18:52 |
| rderose | for PCI though, LDAP has a lockout policy, whereas SQL doesn't currently | 18:53 |
| lbragstad | account lockouts are pci, right? | 18:53 |
| stevemar | if i setup an ldap now, i can toast my corporate credentials | 18:53 |
| browne | if your ldap server already has lockout policy, don't know why you want one in keystone too | 18:53 |
| samueldmq | btw, do we show useful messages in keystone side if there is a ldap-side lockout ? | 18:53 |
| rderose | lbragstad: right | 18:53 |
| dstanek | stevemar: ...but is it? we only implemented this is get SQL update for PCI compliance | 18:53 |
| lbragstad | PCI-DSS 8.1.6: Limit repeated access attempts by locking out the user | 18:53 |
| lbragstad | ID after not more than 6 attempts. | 18:53 |
| dstanek | samueldmq: probably not | 18:53 |
| browne | samueldmq: ++ good question | 18:53 |
| dstanek | samueldmq: at best we can show the message we got and i have no idea what that would be | 18:54 |
| browne | honor the ldap policy and expose the proper error messages IMO | 18:54 |
| gyee | PCI is application-specific, not backend-specific right? | 18:54 |
| stevemar | browne: ++ | 18:54 |
| samueldmq | question is whether we support pci in keystone regardless backend vs backend specific (sql) | 18:54 |
| dstanek | browne: ++ agreed | 18:54 |
| samueldmq | what was our primary decision? | 18:54 |
| bknudson | there's no question about honoring the ldap policy. there's no way to override it. | 18:54 |
| stevemar | samueldmq: we stated that its SQL only | 18:54 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: ++ | 18:55 |
| lbragstad | the main reason for the PCI work was so that keystone would have a somewhat PCI compliant backend out of the box | 18:55 |
| dstanek | samueldmq: we support being PCI compliant, but the organization still have work to do. nothing is compliant out of the box | 18:55 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: got it. who has the usecase? perhaps we should hear more why it is needed. and if it really is | 18:55 |
| bknudson | although I think we might have had problems with honoring ldap policy in the past when cn=admin was used. | 18:55 |
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| browne | bknudson: well, i can imagine wonky states where keystone user is locked but the ldap user backing it was already unlocked | 18:55 |
| stevemar | lbragstad: right | 18:55 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: ++ | 18:55 |
| stevemar | browne: right | 18:56 |
| bknudson | how do you unlock the locked ldap user? | 18:56 |
| jaugustine_ | Hey sorry in a physical meeting too. the issue was raised that keystone could be used to query ldap and lockout users | 18:56 |
| dstanek | unless there is a clear usecase i think we should move on.... | 18:56 |
| bknudson | also, we'd have to store ldap user data in sql. | 18:56 |
| topol | bknudson doughnut bribe admin | 18:56 |
| browne | bknudson: making a phone call to IT and complaining | 18:56 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: ++ | 18:56 |
| lbragstad | bknudson you'd have to contact someone on the corp ldap team, or something like that | 18:56 |
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| dstanek | jaugustine_: yes, that's correct | 18:56 |
| samueldmq | jaugustine_: so keytone lockout users in ldap (and maybe affecting other apps ) ? | 18:57 |
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| bknudson | I mean when the ldap user is locked in keystone. | 18:57 |
| stevemar | if we went down this route, the ldap user could be locked out of keystone, and their corp credentials; then the user would have to contact the LDAP admin to be unlocked; then the openstack admin to be enabled again | 18:57 |
| gyee | bknudson, go to the self-service portal and answer a few personal questions | 18:57 |
| gyee | bknudson, I'll send you a link | 18:57 |
| bknudson | what's my favorite color? | 18:57 |
| stevemar | gyee: lol | 18:57 |
| bknudson | or sea animal? | 18:57 |
| topol | turtle!! | 18:57 |
| dstanek | stevemar: it's back because you can be locked out of either or both | 18:57 |
| bknudson | we'd all pick turtle. | 18:57 |
| dstanek | s/back/bad/ | 18:57 |
| samueldmq | topol: what's your email address and ldap address again? | 18:57 |
| samueldmq | :-) | 18:58 |
| stevemar | dstanek: nope, it wouldn't be in the case of a keystone specific lock out | 18:58 |
| topol | stevemar@ca.ibm.com | 18:58 |
| jaugustine_ | We want to avoid malicious intent I believe. I can get more details | 18:58 |
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| samueldmq | kk gotcha, turtle as favorite animal, thanks topol | 18:58 |
| dstanek | jaugustine_: do you do the same with other applications? like webmail, etc? | 18:58 |
| stevemar | jaugustine_: sure, but you can lock out lamt by trying to log into *any* application as him :P | 18:58 |
| stevemar | jaugustine_: you just don't do it, cause you're a nice fella | 18:59 |
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| dstanek | stevemar: you could be locked out of keystone and not ldap, vice versa, or even both - so not you have to determine who you need to talk to | 18:59 |
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| samueldmq | stevemar: and that seems like we would be writting something to ldap, which is something we don't want anymore | 18:59 |
| samueldmq | afaict | 18:59 |
| rderose | bknudson: we already store ldap data in SQL, we shadow ldap users as well | 18:59 |
| stevemar | i gotta stop now, have to run to dentist | 18:59 |
| stevemar | thanks all | 18:59 |
| stevemar | good discussion | 18:59 |
| rderose | dstanek: ++ | 19:00 |
| stevemar | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 26 19:00:04 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-07-26-18.01.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-07-26-18.01.txt | 19:00 |
| lbragstad | later! | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-07-26-18.01.log.html | 19:00 |
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| rderose | what was the conclusion? | 19:00 |
| fungi | who's around for an infra meeting? | 19:00 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:00 |
| bkero | o/ | 19:00 |
| clarkb | me | 19:00 |
| lbragstad | head to #openstack-keystone rderose | 19:00 |
| dstanek | lamt: jaugustine_: please document a usecase :-) | 19:00 |
| crinkle | o/ | 19:00 |
| lamt | will do | 19:00 |
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| rcarrillocruz | o/ | 19:00 |
| Zara | o/ | 19:00 |
| fungi | today's topics courtesy of Zara, SotK, anteaya, markus_z, fungi, pleia2, pabelanger, zaro | 19:00 |
| SotK | o/ | 19:01 |
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| zaro | o/ | 19:01 |
| anteaya | I'm here | 19:01 |
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| prometheanfire | o/ | 19:02 |
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| corvus | too many people to count | 19:02 |
| ianw | o/ | 19:02 |
| anteaya | ha ha ha | 19:02 |
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| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 26 19:03:08 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:03 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:03 |
| fungi | #topic Announcements | 19:03 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| pleia2 | I was interviewed for the Super User blog, talked about us some, hoping to raise visibility again of the fact that support for our team is essential to openstack: http://superuser.openstack.org/articles/why-infrastructure-is-the-key-to-openstack-s-big-tent | 19:03 |
| jhesketh | o/ | 19:03 |
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| Zara | \o/ | 19:03 |
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| fungi | pleia2: thanks for your tireless efforts marketing us! ;) | 19:03 |
| pleia2 | hehe | 19:03 |
| anteaya | pleia2: thank you | 19:04 |
| corvus | pleia2: cool! | 19:04 |
| rcarrillocruz | \o/ | 19:04 |
| fungi | i haven't read it yet, but it's probably way better than my superuser interview | 19:04 |
| bkero | Good stuff, thanks pleia2 | 19:04 |
| prometheanfire | nice :D | 19:04 |
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| fungi | #info Reminder: late-cycle joint Infra/QA get together to be held September 19-21 (CW38) in at SAP offices in Walldorf, DE | 19:04 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/QAInfraNewtonSprint | 19:04 |
| clarkb | we have started the xenial as default test platform switchover | 19:04 |
| fungi | oh, good one | 19:05 |
| clarkb | had a minor issue getting job + branch selection correct for openstack-ansible which we fixed | 19:05 |
| clarkb | no one else has screamed | 19:05 |
| fungi | i should start having people submit announcements to me (or add them to the agenda) ahead of time | 19:05 |
| clarkb | so uh if you have time/interest feel free to help write chagnes to switch us over | 19:05 |
| bkero | clarkb: is that for stable releases as well, or are those in-time? | 19:05 |
| clarkb | bkero: no stable remains on trusty so we roll forward on xenial | 19:05 |
| anteaya | fungi: that sounds reasonable | 19:05 |
| bkero | So once newton is cut it will be xenial, then o, etc | 19:05 |
| clarkb | yup | 19:06 |
| bkero | okay | 19:06 |
| fungi | we could discuss this (xenial testing) under the priority efforts if there's a lot of questions | 19:06 |
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| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:06 | |
| fungi | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-07-19-19.02.html | 19:06 |
| fungi | pleia2 Submit a spec to host an instance of limesurvey | 19:06 |
| fungi | i didn't see one in review... keep for next week? | 19:06 |
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| pleia2 | it's half written, I'll finish it before friday (when I am traveling) | 19:06 |
| fungi | #action pleia2 Submit a spec to host an instance of limesurvey | 19:06 |
| fungi | right on | 19:07 |
| fungi | #topic Specs approval | 19:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:07 | |
| fungi | none new this week | 19:07 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts: A Task Tracker for OpenStack (Zara, SotK, anteaya, markus_z) | 19:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: A Task Tracker for OpenStack (Zara, SotK, anteaya, markus_z) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:07 | |
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| fungi | there was interest from markus_z in specifying a minimum warning period (maybe one month?) between tc acceptance and migration date | 19:07 |
| fungi | anybody think this is unreasonable to add to the spec? | 19:07 |
| SotK | I think its sensible | 19:08 |
| anteaya | I do not think it is unreasonable | 19:08 |
| Zara | I'm fine with it :) | 19:08 |
| fungi | basically providing some stability for the community to finish up tool rewrites that were using the lp api so that they work with sb | 19:08 |
| fungi | without the api risking changing out from under them | 19:08 |
| pleia2 | makes sense | 19:08 |
| fungi | anteaya: are you up for writing that spec patch? | 19:09 |
| fungi | just adding a sentence will do | 19:09 |
| anteaya | sure I will do so | 19:09 |
| fungi | we ideally would do some widespread announcement to the community once the tc accepts the migration plan anyway | 19:09 |
| anteaya | oh yes | 19:09 |
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| anteaya | currently in talking to stakeholders | 19:10 |
| anteaya | next step is tc | 19:10 |
| fungi | so just stating that there would be a minimum of one month from that until the actual migration or something | 19:10 |
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| fungi | in reality i expect it will end up being well more than a month regardless | 19:10 |
| anteaya | part of getting it on the tc agenda involves a post to the ml | 19:10 |
| anteaya | I also think it will be well more than a month | 19:10 |
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| anteaya | but don't see any harm in stating a one month minimum | 19:11 |
| fungi | okay, anything else we need to cover on this effort in the meeting? | 19:11 |
| anteaya | to ally fears | 19:11 |
| anteaya | not from me | 19:11 |
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| SotK | nor me | 19:11 |
| Zara | _o_ | 19:11 |
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| fungi | clarkb: bkero: did you need me to squeeze the "Newton testing on Xenial" effort into today's agenda or were your questions basically addressed during the announcements? | 19:11 |
| clarkb | I am good, but could use volunteers to help write teh changes likely | 19:13 |
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| clarkb | since I am traveling next week and much of the week after anddon't expect to have consistent internets | 19:13 |
| bkero | fungi: I'm good | 19:13 |
| clarkb | so uh ping me if you can help | 19:13 |
| fungi | i expect those volunteers will come out of the woodwork anyway | 19:13 |
| bkero | clarkb: what changes are you referring to? | 19:13 |
| clarkb | bkero: the changes to project-config that switch jobs to run on xenial | 19:13 |
| bkero | Got it, thanks. | 19:14 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts: Newton testing on Xenial (clarkb) | 19:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Newton testing on Xenial (clarkb) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:14 | |
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| fungi | #info Volunteers needed to draft project-config changes to switch more jobs to run on xenial | 19:14 |
| clarkb | basically just need to update jjb and zuul togetehr to switch things, there are a few examples up and merged now | 19:14 |
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| bkero | o/ I'll see if I can help out with that this week. | 19:14 |
| fungi | thanks clarkb, bkero! | 19:14 |
| clarkb | because we decided to go explicit in the config its not a single 90 line python script we are modifying so lots of typing typing | 19:14 |
| clarkb | bkero: thanks | 19:14 |
| fungi | #topic Infra mascot/logo (fungi) | 19:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Infra mascot/logo (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:15 | |
| bkero | typing typing typing and much seddings | 19:15 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/infra-mascot-ideas Infra mascot/logo ideas | 19:15 |
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| fungi | looks like we have a bunch more now | 19:15 |
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| fungi | are we all set for me to do a civs poll so we can rank preferences? | 19:15 |
| fungi | should i send ballots to the ptl electorate for infra? | 19:15 |
| fungi | or limit it to council members? | 19:15 |
| clarkb | fungi: there is a deadline for tomorrow I think? so we better be ready? | 19:16 |
| fungi | yeah, i've talked to heidijoy about it | 19:16 |
| clarkb | I would let everyone interested vote on it | 19:16 |
| anteaya | on the voting does the top item win? | 19:16 |
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| anteaya | like if everything gets one vote and one thing gets 2 votes, does it win? | 19:16 |
| fungi | we need fallback choices in case of conflicts either within or (in some situations) outside the community | 19:16 |
| clarkb | which is why you wanted to use civs which I think makes sense | 19:17 |
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| fungi | so a condorcet ranking is a sane way to do that fairly, yes | 19:17 |
| pleia2 | yeah | 19:17 |
| fungi | i'll send ballots to our ptl electorate then and any of them who care can register their preferences | 19:17 |
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| clarkb | ++ | 19:17 |
| fungi | how long would make sense to leave it open? one week? | 19:18 |
| anteaya | max one week | 19:18 |
| pleia2 | sounds good to me | 19:18 |
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| rcarrillocruz | yeaha | 19:18 |
| clarkb | assuming thats fine with heidi that seems like a good time period | 19:18 |
| anteaya | I think most folks will vote in 3 days | 19:18 |
| fungi | okay, i'll get that going right after the meeting, making it 6 days so i can close it before next week's meeting | 19:18 |
| Zara | yay | 19:18 |
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| fungi | #action fungi start a poll for infra mascot | 19:18 |
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| pleia2 | thanks fungi | 19:18 |
| fungi | #topic Contributor survey (pleia2) | 19:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Contributor survey (pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:19 | |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/infra-newton-contrib-survey Contributor survey draft | 19:19 |
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| pleia2 | not much new here, thanks to people who chimed in on the pad | 19:19 |
| fungi | next steps? | 19:19 |
| pleia2 | once we have a survey server up I'll put the questions in it | 19:19 |
| fungi | ahh, right-o | 19:19 |
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| pleia2 | we can likely chat about it again before we announce it | 19:19 |
| fungi | sounds good. can come off the agenda for now i guess? | 19:20 |
| pleia2 | yes, thanks | 19:20 |
| fungi | and you'll readd it once we're close | 19:20 |
| fungi | perfect | 19:20 |
| * pleia2 nods | 19:20 | |
| fungi | pabelanger: are you back yet? | 19:20 |
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| fungi | i'll reorder these two topics to give pabelanger a chance to get back to his computer | 19:21 |
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| fungi | #topic Gerrit 2.11.4 updates (zaro) | 19:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit 2.11.4 updates (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:21 | |
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| fungi | looks like we have several fixes merged, a couple still under review | 19:21 |
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| zaro | so it's been a while since we updated gerrit | 19:21 |
| zaro | i thought i would see what we are interested in updating. | 19:21 |
| fungi | yep, as we discussed a few weeks ago, this seems like a good idea | 19:21 |
| anteaya | what would be involved in updating? | 19:22 |
| zaro | the gson update is needed for storyboard plugin | 19:22 |
| Zara | :D | 19:22 |
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| zaro | anteaya: it means reving the version of gerrit we have on review.o.o | 19:22 |
| corvus | zaro: what's the deal with maven and bouncy castle? | 19:22 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/345540 re=nofollow spam deterrent (merged) | 19:22 |
| zaro | it would involve a patch to make that update | 19:22 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/260324 puppet code highlighting (merged) | 19:22 |
| anteaya | zaro: right, so how much downtime, do we need db backups, what steps are we following? | 19:22 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/311903 fix bouncy castle lib download (merged) | 19:23 |
| anteaya | or just restart gerrit once patches are merged? | 19:23 |
| Zara | (I am watching the its-storyboard patches like an oversized hawk; thanks again for working on those) | 19:23 |
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| corvus | yeah that one :) | 19:23 |
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| zaro | corvus: the libs disappeared from the repo so we needed to update the link in gerrit. i don't know why it disappeared though | 19:23 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/340157 update gson lib, required for its-storyboard plugin (open) | 19:23 |
| corvus | did they update that upstream too? | 19:23 |
| zaro | anteaya: no reindex required | 19:24 |
| anteaya | zaro: thank you | 19:24 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack-infra/gerrit+branch:openstack/2.11.4 other open changes for 2.11.4 | 19:24 |
| corvus | zaro: or does upstream use a different version of bouncy castle...? | 19:24 |
| zaro | yes, upstream was fixed the same way | 19:25 |
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| corvus | ok cool | 19:25 |
| corvus | i mean, weird, but cool. :) | 19:25 |
| zaro | the first 3 changes on the infra meeting page is required, so i'm wondering about the others open changes for 2.11.4. | 19:26 |
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| anteaya | zaro: the first three changes have all merged | 19:26 |
| fungi | i would like to see https://review.openstack.org/267927 go into the next build too, as that makes our election process more transparent | 19:26 |
| zaro | opps i mean first 4 changes. including the open gson lib update change | 19:26 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/267927 Remove required access permission to list account emails | 19:26 |
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| anteaya | fungi: that would be awesome | 19:27 |
| anteaya | zaro: ah okay | 19:27 |
| zaro | i think we also wanted https://review.openstack.org/#/c/267927/ or maybe at least anteaya wanted it | 19:27 |
| fungi | i believe that's the only remaining blocker for the revised electoral roll script to be runnable by non-gerrit-admins | 19:27 |
| corvus | are we okay with that from a privacy perspective? | 19:28 |
| anteaya | zaro: yes, I fungi linked it above, and yes it would be awesome to have in | 19:28 |
| anteaya | s/I// | 19:28 |
| zaro | ohh didn't fungi want this one too? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/277538/ | 19:28 |
| corvus | i guess most emails are already publically accessible -- either as the primary account email (is displayed on most pages in the ui) or as emails to match git authors (displayed on git commits) | 19:28 |
| corvus | i can't think of any other cases... | 19:29 |
| fungi | corvus: so gerrit already makes your preferred e-mail address queryable | 19:29 |
| fungi | yes | 19:29 |
| fungi | that | 19:29 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:29 |
| fungi | this just extends it to the additional non-preferred addresses too | 19:29 |
| corvus | sounds good then | 19:29 |
| mordred | that's what I was thinking | 19:29 |
| anteaya | zaro: can we get a consistent topic on all the patches you want to see merged prior to the update? | 19:29 |
| fungi | zaro: oh! right, 277538 while not necessary, will simplify the electoral roll generation script significantly | 19:30 |
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| fungi | takes out a lot of the current guessing around figuring out when a change actually merged | 19:30 |
| zaro | well ok, i conclude that we want 340157, 267927 and 277538 merged? | 19:30 |
| anteaya | zaro: sounds fine to me | 19:30 |
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| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/277538 Append submitted info to the change REST endpoint. | 19:30 |
| fungi | zaro: those three sound great, yes | 19:31 |
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| fungi | anybody have a vested interest in " | 19:31 |
| fungi | er | 19:31 |
| zaro | ok, infra-core do your thing and i'll prep a patch for the update | 19:31 |
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| fungi | anybody have a vested interest in "Increase default HTTP incoming connection queue" or "Init plugins' AllRequestFilters, even if they are loaded after startup"? | 19:31 |
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| zaro | ohh, maybe this one too? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/268689/ fix javamelody plugin updates | 19:32 |
| fungi | is that a significant bump in javamelody featureset over what we have now? | 19:33 |
| zaro | no changes to javamelody itself it just fixes a problem with updating the javamelody plugin while gerrit is running | 19:33 |
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| zaro | it's a fix to the mechanism of deploying the plugin. | 19:34 |
| zaro | also i can prep a change to update on review-dev.o.o and test it out there first before we update review.o.o | 19:35 |
| fungi | was it causing a problem for us, or is it likely to do so if we don't approve that backport? | 19:35 |
| fungi | just wondering what the impetus was for backporting that | 19:35 |
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| zaro | currently if we attempt to update the javamelody plugin without restarting gerrit it won't work. | 19:36 |
| fungi | i can't remember having done that | 19:36 |
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| clarkb | I thought the plugin version was tied to the war build anyways | 19:36 |
| zaro | ok, then it's probably not important. we can just restart gerrit when updating javamelody | 19:36 |
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| fungi | to clarkb's point, i think our current process for updating gerrit plugins has an implicit gerrit restart baked into its assumptions | 19:37 |
| zaro | clarkb: it is build against our fork of gerrit core but it's not packaged with the war | 19:37 |
| fungi | so yeah, this seems like something we can probably drop. we'll consume the fix the next time we upgrade to a newer gerrit release containing it | 19:37 |
| zaro | ok, then we should skip it. | 19:37 |
| zaro | i think it only failing for javamelody anyways. | 19:38 |
| fungi | thanks. anything else you wanted to cover on gerrit upgrades in the meeting? we should likely get the outstanding changes we've identified reviewed/merged prior to scheduling an upgrade maintenance | 19:38 |
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| zaro | so action is to merge 340157, 267927 and 277538 ? | 19:39 |
| fungi | yep | 19:39 |
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| zaro | cool, that's it. | 19:39 |
| fungi | #info We want 340157, 267927 and 277538 merged before we schedule a production Gerrit upgrade maintenance | 19:39 |
| zaro | ohh do we need to identify a date? | 19:40 |
| fungi | #undo | 19:40 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Info object at 0x7f5bbfd22550> | 19:40 |
| fungi | #agreed We want 340157, 267927 and 277538 merged before we schedule a production Gerrit upgrade maintenance | 19:40 |
| fungi | wanted to make that an agreement, not an info | 19:40 |
| fungi | zaro: we can probably leave scheduling for after those changes merge. it ought to be a relatively quick outage so lengthy warning announcement is probably not warranted. a few days heads up should be sufficient | 19:41 |
| zaro | ++ | 19:41 |
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| fungi | pabelanger: are you back at your keyboard yet? | 19:41 |
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| fungi | #topic Release git-review (fungi) | 19:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Release git-review (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:42 | |
| fungi | giving pabelanger a few more minutes to get back | 19:42 |
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| fungi | i want to tag a new git-review release later this week | 19:43 |
| rcarrillocruz | will that come with voting ? i.e. git review plus wip'it ? | 19:43 |
| fungi | anybody feel like reviewing probably non-impacting open changes for any we should squeeze in? | 19:43 |
| rcarrillocruz | i kind of remember a change for doing that in review | 19:43 |
| clarkb | fungi: do you think its worth adding a note about gerrit without bouncy castle and newer git support in git-review? | 19:43 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack-infra/git-review open git-review changes | 19:43 |
| clarkb | er newer ssh support | 19:43 |
| clarkb | I don't actually know how supporting gerrit without bouncy castle is considered | 19:44 |
| zaro | what's included in that git-review release? | 19:44 |
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| fungi | clarkb: to the readme/manpage? probably wouldn't hurt | 19:44 |
| clarkb | fungi: ok I can try to write that up quickly since I know at least one other person/group was affected | 19:45 |
| zaro | rcarrillocruz: #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/281504/ | 19:45 |
| fungi | zaro: see stuff above the 1.25.0 tag for what's already landed in master | 19:45 |
| fungi | #link https://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/git-review/log/ git-review log | 19:46 |
| rcarrillocruz | oh, there you go, thx | 19:46 |
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| fungi | rcarrillocruz: we want to avoid baking openstack community gerrit configuration assumptions into git-review features, so i don't expect a "wip" feature in git-review until we have a generic way of setting wip status in gerrit | 19:47 |
| zaro | fungi: i suggest this one, #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/285620/ | 19:48 |
| fungi | a compromise has been floated to add a feature for submitting an arbitrary review comment/vote immediately following a patchset push | 19:48 |
| rcarrillocruz | yeah, makes sense | 19:48 |
| Kiall | fungi: <drive by>add a --wip=Workflow-1 into .gitreview</drive by> | 19:48 |
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| corvus | not a bad idea | 19:49 |
| zaro | fungi: i don't understand your stament | 19:49 |
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| zaro | is the 'wip' vote the issue? | 19:49 |
| zaro | that feature is generic to set any vote, not specific to wip | 19:50 |
| fungi | zaro: proposing a git-review feature where you can ask it to submit a review comment with vote (e.g. workflow -1) when pushing a patchset | 19:50 |
| zaro | that feature is not specific to wip vote. you can set Code-Review vote or verified vote or any vote | 19:51 |
| zaro | you can do that with gerrit itself | 19:51 |
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| fungi | zaro: yes, this comes on the heels of prior patches proposing "wip" features to git-review where our advice was to implement what 281504 is doing | 19:52 |
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| fungi | zaro: i was probably not being clear. 281504 makes sense, and it's a good compromise | 19:52 |
| * rcarrillocruz went straight to the commit msg example and didn't realize the change is about setting whatever vote | 19:53 | |
| rcarrillocruz | so ++ | 19:53 |
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| zaro | we can change the example to Verified vote to ease your concern | 19:54 |
| fungi | pabelanger: back yet? | 19:54 |
| rcarrillocruz | heh | 19:54 |
| rcarrillocruz | no need :P | 19:54 |
| fungi | zaro: i don't have any concern. i'm in favor of the idea of 281504 i just haven't reviewed the implementation yet. it's on my short list now | 19:54 |
| zaro | sounds good, and i think i've already reviewed just about all of the oustand changes. | 19:55 |
| fungi | #topic Open discussion | 19:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:55 | |
| fungi | thanks zaro, it's a huge help | 19:55 |
| clarkb | Just a heads up I am likely to be AFK for all of next week and much of the week after. Visiting family and they live without Internets | 19:55 |
| prometheanfire | I'd like to see a lesser puppet run for simpler image builds | 19:56 |
| anteaya | clarkb: yay a break for you | 19:56 |
| anteaya | clarkb: have fun | 19:56 |
| fungi | prometheanfire: can you elaborate? | 19:56 |
| zaro | clarkb: those are the family i avoid visiting :) | 19:56 |
| prometheanfire | adding gentoo support to all the puppet modules is becoming a real pain | 19:56 |
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| fungi | prometheanfire: we're trying to unpuppetize our image builds over time | 19:57 |
| prometheanfire | I realize that, and that'd likely help | 19:57 |
| fungi | this is mostly an artifact of the bad old days when we only had static job nodes and they were built the same way as our other servers | 19:57 |
| clarkb | zaro: I have no idea how they survive (well really I do they live on a mountain side in hawaii and don't need Internets) | 19:57 |
| prometheanfire | it the thing I've been stumbling on | 19:57 |
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| pleia2 | I'm also AFK next week, conference+giving a tutorial in Mumbai and then may try to dodge rain as I attempt to tourist a bit during monsoon season | 19:58 |
| rcarrillocruz | :S | 19:58 |
| anteaya | pleia2: yay, break for you too | 19:59 |
| zaro | clarkb: well, i would compromise for hawaii though :) | 19:59 |
| fungi | pleia2: clarkb: don't get washed away! | 19:59 |
| fungi | we need you back soon | 19:59 |
| mtreinish | clarkb: aren't the mountains in hawaii volcanoes? :) | 19:59 |
| prometheanfire | all that puppet needs to do with the gentoo image is create a user | 19:59 |
| clarkb | mtreinish: they are and its active, all good fun | 19:59 |
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| fungi | okay, that's it for times | 19:59 |
| prometheanfire | so adding support for everything else seems excessive | 19:59 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 26 20:00:04 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-07-26-19.03.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-07-26-19.03.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-07-26-19.03.log.html | 20:00 |
| zaro | pleia2: yeah, lots of reviews in queue | 20:00 |
| flaper87 | Gentle Reminder TC Meeting: annegentle dims dhellmann flaper87 johnthetubaguy mestery mtreinish thingee mordred morgan russellb sdague ttx | 20:00 |
| bkero | prometheanfire: the user resource should work on Gentoo in the same way as other systems. | 20:00 |
| mestery | o/ | 20:00 |
| russellb | gu | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:00 |
| russellb | err, hi | 20:00 |
| mestery | lol russellb | 20:00 |
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| russellb | off by one error :) | 20:00 |
| * dhellmann pushes russellb's keyboard a bit to the right | 20:00 | |
| sdague | o/ | 20:00 |
| russellb | :) | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | er ,left | 20:00 |
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| * flaper87 gives some extra mins and hopes for quorum | 20:01 | |
| joehuang | hello | 20:01 |
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| flaper87 | joehuang: hi, glad to see you around | 20:01 |
| * jroll says hi | 20:01 | |
| joehuang | hi, all | 20:01 |
| flaper87 | I know ttx and annegentle won't be around | 20:01 |
| mtreinish | o/ | 20:01 |
| joehuang | Thanks to Monty and Mike for the chance to have a f2f talk in OpenStack China Days :) Hope to meet others f2f if possible, the more discussion, the better, I think all of us want to make OpenStack better:) | 20:02 |
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| dhellmann | ++ | 20:02 |
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| mordred | o/ | 20:02 |
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| flaper87 | ok, there's our quorum | 20:02 |
| flaper87 | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 26 20:02:52 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is flaper87. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| * rockyg slinks into the back, drinking a smoothie | 20:02 | |
| * edleafe tries to look cool hanging in the back | 20:02 | |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| mugsie | o/ | 20:02 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| * mordred agrees with joehuang - it was good to sit down in person ... although I have not yet produced my follow up email I said I would | 20:03 | |
| mordred | rockyg: did you bring enough smoothies for everyone? | 20:03 |
| flaper87 | #topic Equal Integration Chances for all Projects ( mugsie ) | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Equal Integration Chances for all Projects ( mugsie ) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| flaper87 | #link https://review.openstack.org/342366 | 20:03 |
| joehuang | to mordred :) | 20:03 |
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| flaper87 | mugsie: floor is yours | 20:03 |
| rockyg | mordred, Sure! You like tomato/mint/berry smoothies? | 20:04 |
| flaper87 | mugsie: if you're around, of course | 20:04 |
| flaper87 | :) | 20:04 |
| mugsie | so, I proposed this (as a long term) way for us to move forward in the big tent | 20:04 |
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| joehuang | what's the topic now? | 20:04 |
| flaper87 | joehuang: Equal Integration Chances for all Projects | 20:04 |
| mugsie | I think that if we are going to contiune in the big tent, we need to work on getting everyone equal oportunites for intergrating with horizontal teams | 20:04 |
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| mugsie | there has been a few emails about the issue | 20:05 |
| mugsie | and some good reviews. | 20:05 |
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| dhellmann | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-July/100007.html | 20:05 |
| mugsie | I suppose the question is if the substantive aim of the motion is something we can work towards | 20:05 |
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| dhellmann | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-July/099290.html | 20:06 |
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| mugsie | or if it is not really something people agree with | 20:06 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: thanks for getting those links | 20:06 |
| mugsie | yeap, thanks dhellmann | 20:06 |
| * mugsie should have had them ready | 20:06 | |
| dhellmann | were those the only 2 threads? I actually lost track of how many different threads we've had... | 20:06 |
| isunil | is this openstack scientific work group? | 20:06 |
| mugsie | I think so | 20:06 |
| mtreinish | dhellmann: I think it was just those 2 | 20:06 |
| flaper87 | I don't disagree with the view of giving projects equal opportunities but perhaps the approach proposed in the resolution is not the right one | 20:06 |
| jroll | I think there was a third subject line on the tail of one of those threads | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | mtreinish : thanks | 20:07 |
| Kiall | isunil: nope | 20:07 |
| flaper87 | Maybe a resolution itself is not the right first step forward | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | jroll : maybe you can find that one? | 20:07 |
| * jroll looks | 20:07 | |
| flaper87 | mugsie: the issues you highlight there seem, to great extent, to be technical. Some of them (OSC) seem to be being worked on | 20:07 |
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| mugsie | maybe - I am just trying to find a way forward | 20:07 |
| johnthetubaguy | so I like sharing the best practices between horizontal teams | 20:08 |
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| jroll | dhellmann: "plugins for all" -> "Equal Chances for all projects" here: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-July/100007.html | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | we considered this case when we originally discussed the big tent, and we wanted to give the cross-project teams flexibility in addressing how they would work with other teams. So we said that they had to come up with something, but that something might be different for different levels of support. | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | jroll : thanks | 20:08 |
| mugsie | yes, there is bugs, and yes they are being worked on, but to try and avoid them as we grow, i think something like htis in policy is a good thing | 20:08 |
| flaper87 | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-July/100007.html | 20:08 |
| flaper87 | jroll: thanks | 20:08 |
| jroll | np | 20:08 |
| sdague | I also think that part of the intent of the big tent was to give horizontal teams the freedom to figure out what pattern works for them, which this also rolls back | 20:08 |
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| mtreinish | flaper87: that was dhellmann's first link :) | 20:08 |
| sdague | dhellmann: right, exactly that | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | most of the teams have put some sort of liaison system into place to address the coordination and contribution load issues | 20:09 |
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| sdague | and the way you increase interactions between teams isn't policy, it's people stepping across fences and helping out | 20:09 |
| mtreinish | sdague: yes, that ++ | 20:10 |
| jroll | sdague++ | 20:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: +1 | 20:10 |
| mugsie | and as I have said, I will do when the skills I have can help | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | sdague: indeed, that's why I think a resolution is not the right first step | 20:10 |
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| dhellmann | so unless we have a situation where a team is refusing to cooperate at all, I don't think we want to start adding more rules on top | 20:10 |
| dtroyer | And even in that case, rules are not the first resort… | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : yep, your commitment isn't in question | 20:10 |
| mugsie | smaller project have had rules added to them to start using some of these projects | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | mugsie: identifying the issues is also a thing to do and you've helped there. I think highlighting those issue to each project would be a way to contribute | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer : right | 20:10 |
| sdague | dtroyer: agreed | 20:10 |
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| johnthetubaguy | maybe I missed something in the email, but mugsie where are you hitting issues? | 20:11 |
| mugsie | tempest, docs, grenade, osc, horizon | 20:11 |
| jroll | mtreinish: oops on the dupe link, I was thinking the "Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)" was one of the first two mentioned | 20:11 |
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| mugsie | is the short list in my head from this cycle | 20:11 |
| sdague | no one has to use grenade | 20:11 |
| mugsie | well, if we want to say we support upgrade, we basically | 20:11 |
| sdague | my life would be easier if less people did :) | 20:11 |
| Kiall | It's not necessary (IMO) about increasing interaction between teams. That's never going to scale to big tent, it's, again IMO, about ensuring horizontal teams are building a core widget, which is used by the projects they support in the same way projects they don't support can use that widget. | 20:11 |
| mugsie | + do | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : having the cross-project teams document their expectations is to be expected. by "rules" do you mean things you consider too onerous? | 20:12 |
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| mugsie | dhellmann: no, it is when developers from the project I work on see and issue, try to fix itm and get a -2, saying that @$thing is not for plugins@ | 20:12 |
| * mugsie switches KB mapping | 20:12 | |
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| dhellmann | Kiall : all of the existing examples appear to already be doing that, to varying degrees of "finished" | 20:13 |
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| mugsie | dhellmann: but in each case, there is a special section that is reserved for "privaledged projects" | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : that sounds like a discussion that needs to happen with the team in question, to understand how their interfaces work? | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | you keep using that word, but is it really "priviledged" or is it "not yet ported"? | 20:13 |
| mugsie | well, i was told to stop using core :) | 20:14 |
| mordred | I'm starting to have an old-grandpa moment where this is reminding me of pre-integrated release days | 20:14 |
| flaper87 | mugsie: each team should work with you on understanding how the interface works, what solutions you have and we should go from there | 20:14 |
| russellb | is there a specific case we can look at? | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : I understand your frustration, but you're coming at this presenting the issue as bad intent on the part of these other teams that I just don't see | 20:14 |
| mugsie | mordred: yup | 20:14 |
| sdague | dhellmann: right, it's like when I show up to change things in oslo.context, and you tell me "well... actually you shouldn't do it this way", and I bounce off a couple of options before I find a workable one | 20:14 |
| Kiall | dhellmann: yes, I think many are working that way, but it's so common that most of us smaller projects give up after a while and just use the APIs we aren't allowed to, or reimplement things. A formal policy helps keep this on the minds of everyone, and ensures over time we see this less and less. | 20:15 |
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| sdague | but that's just what happens when you explore into unfamiliar territory that doesn't have every use case documented out with examples | 20:15 |
| Kiall | (I'm on a cell, and typing real slow ;)) | 20:15 |
| mugsie | docs. we are told to put docs in docs.o.o/developer/<project> which is not linked from docs.o.o for users | 20:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | russellb: +1 | 20:15 |
| russellb | docs is a good example, though that issue has been specifically discussed on list | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : that's changing right? loquacities has described the experimentation they're doing with install guides, for example. | 20:15 |
| sdague | and, is evolving | 20:15 |
| mugsie | which in turn causes issues for adoption, which makes getting to the main docs eve harder | 20:15 |
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| russellb | i don't think a TC resolution helps that | 20:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | mugsie: so thats a good specific, but I thought they are working on that | 20:16 |
| mugsie | in one small area | 20:16 |
| jroll | random data point: ironic has been working through some of the same issues. and it *is* difficult to understand where the boundaries are and how everything works. but with enough talking to people, we've stumbled our way through it | 20:16 |
| flaper87 | FWIW, I think these issues are real but we should look at them individually. | 20:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | by they, I mean us | 20:16 |
| russellb | flaper87: ++ | 20:16 |
| flaper87 | We as in OpenStack/TEams and not necessarily the TC itself | 20:16 |
| jroll | docs people are very focused on fixing these things, e.g. they just finished up making the install guide pluggable | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | no, we had a very production session in austin with the docs team getting to the point of allowing more teams to write guides using their tools. this is all in flux. | 20:16 |
| mtreinish | johnthetubaguy: 'one of us' :) | 20:16 |
| jroll | but they can't do everything at once, if someone wants to make it move faster, they need to jump in and help :/ | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | jroll : does that point to a need for more documentation on those "boundaries"? | 20:16 |
| sdague | jroll: right, and I think that's kind of the point. OpenStack is really big, and everyone runs into things like that when in unfamiliar teritory | 20:16 |
| flaper87 | I don't think moving forward with a resolution will help us solving issues that, as of now, seem to be mostly technical and (hopefully) solvable | 20:16 |
| sdague | flaper87: or, honestly, more social | 20:17 |
| flaper87 | sdague: that too | 20:17 |
| mugsie | actually, this seems ot be a misconception - the timeline is not proposed in this motion | 20:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | what jroll said, they are working on it | 20:17 |
| flaper87 | (time check: giving this topic 4 more mins) | 20:17 |
| mugsie | and in no way do I think it should be in this cycle | 20:17 |
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| Kiall | flaper87: I think these are as much mindset as they are technical. But I've nothing to back that up bar my gut. | 20:17 |
| sdague | because I think there seems to be an expectation that the rest of openstack is a solved problem, without realizing the whole problem space is co-evolving | 20:17 |
| jroll | dhellmann: maybe, it might just be us trying to go between docs and code examples (which may or may not be doing it right) | 20:17 |
| mugsie | if it was 1 or 2 - yes - do it on a case by case basis | 20:17 |
| flaper87 | sdague: amen | 20:17 |
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| dhellmann | jroll : ok, I was looking for some sort of positive action we could recommend here | 20:18 |
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| mugsie | but as it is not, is seems to be a more overarchig problem, which would (in my mind) end up in the TC space | 20:18 |
| jroll | dhellmann: I think as more projects adopt these pluggable things, they should help others (e.g. I sit in -qa and try to help with devstack/grenade plugin questions if I can) | 20:18 |
| sdague | yeh, and jroll is super awesome with that. thanks for it. | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : if we approved this resolution, what change would you expect to see as an outcome from that? | 20:19 |
| jroll | dhellmann: or file bugs / write docs if they aren't sufficient | 20:19 |
| mugsie | and thank you for that jroll - i had been banging my head on a wall for a few days when you replied | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | jroll : ++ | 20:19 |
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| jroll | sdague: mugsie: :) | 20:19 |
| flaper87 | ok, the time for this topic is almost over. I can write a summary for this discussion but I'd like to close it with an action item if possible | 20:20 |
| mugsie | dhellmann: as we move forward over then next (x) cycles we would move all proects to plugins (or in tree) | 20:20 |
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| mugsie | flaper87: I honestly don;t think we are there yet | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : ok. we have in each of these cases indicated why we do not want to do that, though. | 20:20 |
| sdague | mugsie: I think blanket statements like that aren't really useful | 20:20 |
| flaper87 | Among the issues mugsie listed, can we at least identify which ones the TC can help with and which ones should be discussed with the different communities? | 20:20 |
| flaper87 | mugsie: well, I'm not looking for a solution but a step forward for the discussion | 20:20 |
| Kiall | I | 20:20 |
| Kiall | (cell phone ;)) | 20:21 |
| fungi | mugsie: i'm curious who the "we" is you're volunteering to "move all proects to plugins (or in tree)" | 20:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | it seems like most of the groups are working really hard on this already | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : and the fact that we have those reasons, and they are different for each cross-project concern, and the solutions are therefore different, is why we did not have this "treat all projects the same way" policy to begin with | 20:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | is there something we can do to ask for more help, or are there specific gaps that we should highlight here? | 20:21 |
| fungi | mugsie: it sounds like you're offering to show up with an army of new contributors to make your dream a reality | 20:21 |
| mugsie | and this seems weird to me. if we are oving this way already in projects, why should we not have it in policy | 20:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | it feels like all the key bits are moving forward right now | 20:21 |
| flaper87 | #info we need to identify what issues are being worked on and which ones should be discussed further with the TC or other teams | 20:21 |
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| dhellmann | mugsie : because we are not moving to the place that your policy defines | 20:22 |
| Kiall | flaper87 / mugsie I'd be interested in a poll of PTLs, assessing general agreement / disagreement with mugsie's resolution. Broken down by project size etc. I imagine that will shed light on if this is really a problem, or not | 20:22 |
| flaper87 | #action flaper87 to summarize the discussion on the review | 20:22 |
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| dhellmann | we do not want all projects to be treated exactly the same way in all cases, because we want cross-project teams to have flexibility in what they sign up to "own" versus what they sign up to support others doing | 20:22 |
| mugsie | i can do that | 20:22 |
| mugsie | Kiall: ^ | 20:23 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: ++ | 20:23 |
| jroll | Kiall: it's complicated, as a PTL I agree with mugsie's problem statement ("this is really hard right now"), but not the solution | 20:23 |
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| sdague | Kiall: that would be fine data to collect, but I also expect you would find that everyone thinks things are a problem that are different problems | 20:23 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: ++ | 20:23 |
| sdague | dhellmann: ++ | 20:23 |
| Kiall | dhellmann: agree, docs can't write everyone's docs. | 20:23 |
| fungi | as an example, the vmt is very specific about which deliverables they support directly and which they merely provide consultation and recommendations for | 20:23 |
| fungi | i don't think that can be changed safely/sanely | 20:23 |
| dhellmann | that's another good example, fungi | 20:23 |
| Kiall | But they can (as a medium to long term goal, which they are doing) ensure the tooling works from projects they manage, AND projects they don't by using the same APIs for both. | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | the way to solve these issues is to add more people to the *cross-project work* not just the siloed project work | 20:24 |
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| fungi | Kiall: in the case of the vmt, that "api" is a group of people having conversations | 20:24 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: ++ | 20:24 |
| sdague | Kiall: sometimes, and sometimes they have to evolve things | 20:24 |
| mugsie | but, the vmt will not block a project based on when it was integrated / other metrics, just on the basis of a review, which will have actionalble changes a project can do to get supprt | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | Kiall : that is already documented as an expectation | 20:24 |
| mugsie | and are activly moving in that direction | 20:25 |
| Kiall | fungi: yea, some groups really are different. And the resolution likely needs updating to reflect that | 20:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | +1 dhellmann, also I think its generally all a work in progress and happening | 20:25 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : which team is blocking you in that way? | 20:25 |
| mugsie | in which way? getting in tree? | 20:25 |
| fungi | similarly, you can't demand that the i18n team start translating more projects just because they're big tent. they need to decide where makes the most sense to focus their limited labor force | 20:25 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : in whatever way you just implied by the "based on when it was integrated ..." statement | 20:26 |
| flaper87 | fungi: another good example | 20:26 |
| mugsie | fungi: but you could ask them to allow all project into the transaltion system | 20:26 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : if you want to make a change-the-whole-world policy change, you need to be talking in more detail | 20:26 |
| mugsie | and they can use that to translate themselves | 20:26 |
| flaper87 | ok, we need to move on as there are other topics to discuss | 20:26 |
| fungi | mugsie: they already allow that | 20:26 |
| Kiall | fungi: agree, but the i18n tooling is open to all projects, and it's the same API used by all. Thus the problem mugsie's proposal is addressing doesn't exist | 20:26 |
| flaper87 | We'll bring this up again in the next meeting if necessary | 20:26 |
| mugsie | so, htey wouodl be fine in this motion | 20:26 |
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| dhellmann | flaper87 : +1 to moving on | 20:27 |
| flaper87 | mugsie: thanks a lot for your work there, as much as it might not look like it, I think we're moving somewhere | 20:27 |
| flaper87 | #topic Add project Tricircle to OpenStack big-tent ( joehuang ) | 20:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add project Tricircle to OpenStack big-tent ( joehuang ) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:27 | |
| flaper87 | #link https://review.openstack.org/338796 (round 2) | 20:27 |
| flaper87 | So, we discussed this topic in our lsat meeting | 20:27 |
| flaper87 | There were different opinions and feedback on the proposal and by now many of them have been posted in the review already | 20:28 |
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| flaper87 | joehuang: thanks again from joining us, we know this is a difficult hour in your TZ | 20:28 |
| joehuang | some questions I asked in the comment now answered yet | 20:28 |
| flaper87 | joehuang: anything you'd like to share/say ? | 20:28 |
| joehuang | thanks to flapper87 | 20:28 |
| joehuang | yes, I would like to express my opinion a little | 20:29 |
| flaper87 | joehuang: please do | 20:29 |
| joehuang | Thanks Kyle to check the material based on guideline. I think -1 should be based on guideline, http://governance.openstack.org/reference/new-projects-requirements.html. So I can't accept other -1 for now, need more clarification on why -1 for other comment. There are already several projects with tag "single vendor", single vendor is also not the reason to stop a project joining the big-tent. | 20:29 |
| sdague | I'm super not thrilled by the proxy API nature of this... especially as we've been deprecating the API proxies in Nova over this cycle | 20:29 |
| joehuang | which api proxy, you mean cells API proxy? | 20:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: +1 | 20:30 |
| dhellmann | joehuang : I'm not sure anyone is arguing your team has not followed the 4 opens. The objections I'm seeing are related to questions about whether "The project aligns with the OpenStack Mission" | 20:30 |
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| joehuang | to dhellmann | 20:30 |
| * jroll <3 flaper87's review on this | 20:31 | |
| joehuang | so I asked question in ttx's comment, | 20:31 |
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| flaper87 | mordred you had a discussion f2f with joehuang a couple of weeks ago, right. Anything you want/can share? | 20:31 |
| flaper87 | jroll: <3 | 20:31 |
| mordred | I've written adn deleted like 12 things since this topic started :) | 20:31 |
| russellb | i think this fundamentally changes nearly all OpenStack APIs and gives them 2 very different ways they may work, and i'm not convinced that's a good direction we should take | 20:31 |
| joehuang | can't figure out how the Tricircle will harmfully dilute an OpenStack cloud and hurt the mission, could you help me to point out more concretely, for example from technology, scenario, use case, etc aspect? From my understanding, the Tricircle will address four use cases listed in the communication material: | 20:31 |
| flaper87 | mordred: lol | 20:31 |
| flaper87 | mordred: take your time | 20:31 |
| russellb | overall, i'd like to see stronger consensus around this before making it official in any way | 20:31 |
| joehuang | To get more consensus is a good proposal, The Tricircle has already been developed under the "four open" guidelines, and discussed/reviewed almost one year in the design, not received objection during the development. When we talk about the "get consensus", I would like to know what's the process is, and what's the criteria, so that we have a target to strive for. | 20:32 |
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| russellb | i've rejected plenty in the past :) | 20:32 |
| mordred | I'm also not sure that the current proxy approach is the right one, and thingee and I chatted with joehuang a little bit about that. but that's an impl detail and one that can be worked on over time | 20:32 |
| mestery | joehuang: I posted another comment on the review, but I think russellb summarized my thoughts quite well | 20:32 |
| dhellmann | joehuang : we are working very hard to establish a single openstack API even among the existing projects so that we can have deployment interoperability. Tricircle is a proxy layer on top of that with subtle differences, which means it is yet another API. That dilutes the mission. | 20:32 |
| mordred | I think what's more important is the intent of the team and what they are trying to accomplish | 20:32 |
| russellb | i have absolutely no problem with the project existing, no need to object to that ... i just don't think it should be an official project | 20:32 |
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| mordred | and whether that intent is in keeping with our mission or not | 20:32 |
| joehuang | Just objection is easy, I would like to hear your proposal how to address the use cases mentioned in the reference material[1], if no new proposal to address these issues as, I would recommend to add Tricircle as incubation project. A compromise proposal is to restore incubation project type for Tricircle, or add an incubation tag in big-tent project. | 20:33 |
| russellb | there's no such thing as "incubation project" | 20:33 |
| sdague | dhellmann: ++ | 20:33 |
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| joehuang | If just objection is enough, then no consensus can be achieved no matter what proposal is given, because any one can just put -1 without concrete reason based on guideline for governance area. | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | joehuang: the fact that no one has objected so far does not mean that everyone agrees with the approach you've taken. as ttx points out in his comment, this is a significant architectural decision for the community. | 20:34 |
| mordred | impl details aside, tricircle is working on cross-cloud use cases, and ways of making certain complex cross-cloud use cases work better for end users | 20:34 |
| flaper87 | I'd feel more comfortable letting the project in the tent if there would be more discussions on the topic mostly because it's a difficult topic to address and I think it could definitely use a wider audience | 20:34 |
| edleafe | joehuang: I don't think anyone is placing -1's without reason | 20:34 |
| joehuang | to mordred: ++ | 20:34 |
| russellb | mordred: sure, but i do think the architecure matters too | 20:34 |
| mordred | I suggested when we were meeting that it might be worthwhile considering a completely new api that is focused on those use cases, and promised joehuang I would send him an email with a write up of more specific thoughts there | 20:34 |
| russellb | and there are fundamental objections to the approach at the most basic level ... | 20:34 |
| sdague | mordred: sure, but there are other efforts as well, like the federated cloud work from the umass folks | 20:34 |
| mordred | russellb: I do not think architecture matters, actually. not for big tent inclusion. but that's just my opinion and I respect alternate ones | 20:35 |
| mordred | sdague: sure there are, but the umass folks have not requested big tent inclusion and tricircle has | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | mordred : I don't think we want to have to deal with questions like "which version of the official openstack api do you mean?" | 20:35 |
| flaper87 | #info there's no objection to the technical merits and details of the project but rather on the timing of the proposal and its implications community wise | 20:35 |
| sdague | dhellmann: ++ | 20:35 |
| * flaper87 hopes that's a good first/partial summary | 20:35 | |
| mordred | dhellmann: I do not think that is the question we're asking or answering here | 20:35 |
| russellb | flaper87: i object to the technical merits and details of the project | 20:36 |
| mordred | nobody at any point in time has said anything about tricircle being a part of DefCore | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | mordred : I think that is the question we will be asked if we start accepting projects like tricircle | 20:36 |
| joehuang | to make the archi WG get consensus, | 20:36 |
| sdague | flaper87: I also object to the proxy nature | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | russellb: in general or as a part of tent ? | 20:36 |
| russellb | both? | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | I meant that as part of the evaluation but it's fair | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | #undo | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | mordred: I don't think that defcore is the be-all-end-all definition of the list of projects for which people will ask that question. | 20:36 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Info object at 0x7f5bbfbb3a10> | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | bom | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | :D | 20:36 |
| joehuang | it's good to include tricircle in the big-tent with incubation tag | 20:36 |
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| sdague | because I think that's the gratuitous overlap | 20:36 |
| jroll | given we don't like competing projects (missions?), the architecture does matter, right? or else we'll end up not accepting other valid multi-region scaling things? | 20:36 |
| russellb | there's no such thing as incubation | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | joehuang : we do not have a tag like that | 20:37 |
| jroll | s/valid/better/ even? | 20:37 |
| mordred | dhellmann: right. but I don't think adding something to the big tent adds a level of officianess to its api | 20:37 |
| mordred | like, literally that's the opposite of what we did with big tent | 20:37 |
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| dhellmann | mordred : we call big tent projects "official projects" | 20:37 |
| russellb | jroll: the amount i care about competing/overlapping projects depends on the layer of the stack ... i care for keystone ... i don't care about deployment projects, for example | 20:37 |
| dtroyer | mordred: that is not how many outside this group interpret the big tent | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer : ++ | 20:37 |
| joehuang | to dhellmann, good | 20:37 |
| sdague | mordred: and we are putting up official API docs now | 20:37 |
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| mordred | dtroyer: sure. that means we have failed at educating them | 20:37 |
| mordred | sure | 20:37 |
| jroll | russellb: sure, but we like to say there's on compute/identity/etc API, would we want multiple multi-region-control APIs? | 20:38 |
| mtreinish | mordred: maybe, but we don't have any other way to differentiate an apis officialness. If it's in the big tent it kinda means that | 20:38 |
| edleafe | will having tricircle in the big tent affect how we look at the umass project if they later apply for inclusion? | 20:38 |
| mordred | ok. listen. I get all of those arguements. but if we want to start judging projects based on the technical merits of their current implementation, then we need to change this process | 20:38 |
| mordred | that is not what this is currently | 20:38 |
| mugsie | i thought that the big tent was supposed to stop TC doing arch review of projects? | 20:38 |
| russellb | jroll: i would put this int he category of "strongly object to overlap/competition" category, yes | 20:38 |
| mordred | no matter who thinks it is erroneuously | 20:38 |
| sdague | russellb: ++ | 20:38 |
| jroll | russellb: right, that's the point I'm trying to make | 20:38 |
| russellb | k :) | 20:38 |
| jroll | :) | 20:38 |
| joehuang | to mordred +1 | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | mordred : I'm not making a technical judgement here. I'm saying that adding a second version of a nova API to openstack as an official project is a bad idea because it confuses things. It doesn't matter how that API is implemented. | 20:39 |
| mordred | dhellmann: right. which is one of the reasons I was suggesting to joehuang that we talk about different apis for tricircle | 20:39 |
| russellb | sounds like a great discussion | 20:39 |
| joehuang | that's how to governance tricricle will not make deviation on api | 20:39 |
| mordred | which may mean we need to defer making a call on this right now ... I just want to make sure if we reject or defer we're doing it for the right reasons | 20:39 |
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| dhellmann | mordred : ok, cool. I look forward to being a fly on the wall for that. | 20:39 |
| dtroyer | this is the cnace to get a single (appearing) aPI done 'right' fixing all the things we've learned in 6 years | 20:40 |
| dtroyer | so go do that | 20:40 |
| joehuang | I propose Nova/Cinder team can govern the tricircle api gw | 20:40 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer : shoot, if we could get the API right I'd support having something like this replace all of our existing apis :-) | 20:40 |
| anteaya | joehuang: do the nova/cinder teams want that responsiblity? | 20:40 |
| sdague | well, you know right for a week | 20:40 |
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| jroll | dhellmann: heh, +1 | 20:40 |
| sdague | then it would be wrong again | 20:40 |
| sdague | when the first new use case showed up :) | 20:41 |
| dtroyer | dhellmann: maybe in 6 more years it would… but that's what I hear mordred suggeesting, and I think is the right approach for this sort of thing | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | sdague : humbug | 20:41 |
| mtreinish | sdague: and then right again 5 years later :) | 20:41 |
| sdague | at stopped API is right twice a decade? | 20:41 |
| joehuang | the use cases are quite new | 20:41 |
| mordred | dhellmann: right. that's sort of exactly what I'm saying the effort here is _really_ wanting to do - but the team doing it is trying their best to play nicely with everyone | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | sdague : ++ | 20:41 |
| joehuang | I don't know how deep the new use cases have been discussed in the past 6 years | 20:41 |
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| mordred | gah | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | mordred : I appreciate and am not questioning that in any way | 20:41 |
| mordred | I mean dtroyer | 20:41 |
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| joehuang | please look at the use case2 from the finiacial segements | 20:42 |
| sdague | mordred: ok, well my experience is quite different there. Because the umass folks show up and talk with (at least the nova team) through issues, and have been for the past 2 years (summits and midcycles), which has not been true here | 20:42 |
| mordred | sdague: this is quite different than what they're trying to do | 20:43 |
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| mordred | sdague: this is a thing which actually understands all of your cloudregionzones, which is not a construct which exists anywhere in openstack, as openstack regions are completey independent sharednothing entities at the moment | 20:43 |
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| sdague | mordred: that's fine, I just want to characterize the level of collaboration I've seen | 20:43 |
| mordred | sdague: totally | 20:43 |
| jroll | sdague: well, this is just trying to duplicate the nova API as a proxy, there aren't hard technical problems to work out with the nova team, right? | 20:43 |
| jroll | it's just pick a nova and pass the request | 20:44 |
| joehuang | to mordred, multi-regions don't work for these use cases | 20:44 |
| sdague | jroll: what about when nova's are at different versions | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | Do we agree that we should defer the inclusion of Tricircle and encourage the team to work with the rest of the community on improving/discussing the approach taken on this issue? | 20:44 |
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| dhellmann | flaper87 : +1 | 20:44 |
| sdague | flaper87: +1 | 20:44 |
| sdague | I think that's what the vote looks like now | 20:44 |
| mestery | flaper87: +1 | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | so, not a rejection, but a deferral | 20:44 |
| mordred | flaper87: I will volunteer to work further with joehuang | 20:44 |
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| flaper87 | mordred: awesome! Thanks <3 | 20:45 |
| dhellmann | (which may actually look like a rejection in the short term if we abandon this specific review) | 20:45 |
| joehuang | to mordred: thanks | 20:45 |
| jroll | sdague: doesn't seem like they intend to solve that now (microversions don't exist in tricircle), but I think we digress | 20:45 |
| mordred | as I think that the work the team is doing is valuable, but currently not structured in a way the rest of the community is well positoined to accept | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | #action mordred will follow-up with joehuang to help the Tricircle team move forward | 20:45 |
| dhellmann | mordred : +1 | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | mordred: is that action item fair? Want me to change it? | 20:45 |
| jroll | sdague: good point though | 20:45 |
| sdague | mordred: +1 | 20:45 |
| joehuang | microversion support is listed in our agenda | 20:45 |
| mordred | flaper87: it's great | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | awesome | 20:45 |
| mordred | I owe like 10 different people writeups on like 10 different topics, so step one with joehuang may take a few weeks, and I apologize for that speed | 20:46 |
| flaper87 | joehuang: thanks a bunch again for joining and I do hope you all will continue working on what you're doing | 20:46 |
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| dhellmann | mordred : you need some interns or something | 20:46 |
| flaper87 | As a final note, joehuang, this is a deferral and not a rejection! Looking forward to the future proposal | 20:46 |
| joehuang | to mordred and flaper87: ok | 20:46 |
| joehuang | :) | 20:46 |
| jroll | he needs clones :) | 20:46 |
| flaper87 | ok, let's move on | 20:47 |
| mordred | dhellmann: then I'd have to tell the interns what to do, which would involve me writing up thoughts for them :) | 20:47 |
| * rockyg hands mordred an honarary tricircle member badge, and a rose | 20:47 | |
| anteaya | jroll: no, no clones | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | #topic Update thresholds for active reviewers ( flaper87 ) | 20:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Update thresholds for active reviewers ( flaper87 ) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:47 | |
| flaper87 | #link https://review.openstack.org/337853 and clarify what an active (core) reviewer is | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | #link https://review.openstack.org/342225 | 20:47 |
| jroll | anteaya: the more mordreds the merrier :D | 20:47 |
| joehuang | to flaper87, could you comment on the review for "defer but not rejection" | 20:47 |
| anteaya | no, no, no | 20:47 |
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| anteaya | one is more than enough | 20:47 |
| jroll | hehe | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | So, I kept the second link in the topic just to say that I'd prefer to talk about that one later :D | 20:47 |
| dhellmann | flaper87 : mordred mentioned doing something with standard deviations, too, did you look at what impact that would have over a simple %? | 20:47 |
| rockyg | or is that the more dreds the merrier? | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | I'd love for us to focus on this one https://review.openstack.org/337853 | 20:48 |
| joehuang | thank you, I have to sleep now :) | 20:48 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: I did not, tbh | 20:48 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: but I could | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | flaper87 : ok, just checking | 20:48 |
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| dhellmann | I'm curious, but I don't know what actually makes sense here | 20:48 |
| flaper87 | So, this is another split of the original proposal and it focuses on the changes to the teamstats.py script we use | 20:48 |
| flaper87 | we have majority already | 20:49 |
| flaper87 | I wonder if there are other questions | 20:49 |
| mugsie | so, i theory, if a team had 4 cores, the minimum level for an active reviewer wouold be closer to 15%, right? | 20:49 |
| mugsie | (based on each patch needing 2 +2's) | 20:49 |
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| * flaper87 tries to do the math in his head but it's passed the math hour in his TZ | 20:50 | |
| mugsie | and if it had 3 cores, it would be ~ 30% | 20:50 |
| flaper87 | :P | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : if you have 4 folks and one is very slack, the effort goes up for the others. that's one reason for looking into standard deviations, I guess. | 20:50 |
| * amrith scratches his head on that math | 20:50 | |
| mordred | mugsie: that's sort of why I was origianlly musing about standard deviations | 20:50 |
| mugsie | yeah | 20:50 |
| mordred | it's harder math of course | 20:50 |
| mtreinish | yeah, that's what I was just thinking too. It kinda depends on the number of reviews and the number of cores to be fair | 20:50 |
| mugsie | its just the 2% rule seems ... low | 20:50 |
| mtreinish | mordred: bring in numpy :) | 20:50 |
| mugsie | :D | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | mordred : in python 3 it's a function call: https://docs.python.org/3.5/library/statistics.html#statistics.pstdev | 20:51 |
| * flaper87 stores that link | 20:51 | |
| dhellmann | or https://docs.python.org/3.5/library/statistics.html#statistics.stdev | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | or someone who actually knows that math could find the right function :-) | 20:51 |
| * amrith thinks we should define what we want to accomplish before getting bogged down in the math functions | 20:51 | |
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| sdague | flaper87: so... what changed after this add? | 20:51 |
| sdague | like which projects moved across a line? | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | amrith: we're trying to make it so that teams that let core members "linger" even when they are not active do not benefit in terms of appearing to be diverse | 20:52 |
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| mordred | dhellmann: you are a walking encyclopedia of python | 20:52 |
| flaper87 | sdague: mostly not visible changes as some projects got closer to the line | 20:52 |
| amrith | dhellmann, in truth, this commit doesn't do that. | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | mordred : it comes in print and all major ebook formats... | 20:52 |
| mugsie | amrith: yeah. thats a good question - i may have missed a meeting thought - why do we need a definition of an active reviewer? is there teams suffing cores to get diversity? | 20:52 |
| sdague | flaper87: ok, which projects had the biggest drift? | 20:52 |
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| sdague | that might help validate if this feels fine | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : not "stuffing" no | 20:52 |
| flaper87 | sdague: telemetry is one example | 20:53 |
| flaper87 | sdague: it's in the edge of missing the diversity tag | 20:53 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, I stayed on the core team there way longer than I should have and that skewed their diversity stats for a while | 20:53 |
| mordred | mugsie: there are some projects that don't ever clean up old non-active cores so they look like they've got more active core teams than they actually do | 20:53 |
| mordred | mugsie: good example from dhellmann | 20:54 |
| sdague | flaper87: ok, that seems valid then | 20:54 |
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| johnthetubaguy | did we try 5%? | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | johnthetubaguy: we did but it left out some core reviewers that are clearly active | 20:54 |
| mugsie | yeah, meant telemetrey lost the diversity tag, right? | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | johnthetubaguy: in teams like Telemetry for example | 20:54 |
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| johnthetubaguy | ah, OK | 20:54 |
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| flaper87 | so, it was a bit too high | 20:54 |
| fungi | this still seems like a lot of added complexity for very little gain. i'm particularly curious how it handles the fact that many larger teams have different core reviewer groups on different deliverables with some overlap across deliverables | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | flaper87 : how are they "clearly active"? | 20:55 |
| flaper87 | We can adjust this later but the main change I would like to see is the check of activity for core reviewers | 20:55 |
| anteaya | fungi: like infra? | 20:55 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: number of reviews in the projects they are most focused on | 20:55 |
| fungi | anteaya: like infra and a number of others, sure | 20:55 |
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| flaper87 | dhellmann: Telemetry has other smaller projects | 20:55 |
| * anteaya thinks of the jjb team | 20:55 | |
| flaper87 | and not everyone reviews on every Telemetry project | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | flaper87: ok, oslo is another program like that | 20:56 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: yeah | 20:56 |
| mugsie | woul that not indicate that we shouldupdate the formula, not the % ? | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | s/program/project/ | 20:56 |
| * mugsie hates this keyboard | 20:56 | |
| johnthetubaguy | FWIW the more complicated logic gives me a warmer fuzzier feeling we have a better estimate than the straight 30 review cut off, not that it really makes any more sense | 20:56 |
| flaper87 | ok, we've 5mins left | 20:56 |
| flaper87 | Unless there are strong objections to discuss, I'll change topics to open discussion | 20:57 |
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| sdague | flaper87: ++ | 20:57 |
| flaper87 | (sorry for cutting some ppl off, do post comments on the review) | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | flaper87, johnthetubaguy : maybe we should change it to say "active for one deliverable" or something | 20:57 |
| fungi | i think the diversity tag is a fundamentally flawed implementation that needs to be per-deliverable for it to make any sense | 20:57 |
| corvus | some reviews take seconds. some take hours. the more complex we make this metric, the more important it is to get it right, and i fear that will be very difficult. | 20:57 |
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| dhellmann | corvus : good point | 20:57 |
| flaper87 | corvus: ++ | 20:57 |
| flaper87 | #topic Open discussion | 20:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: yeah, makes sense | 20:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:57 | |
| mugsie | which circles back to "why" ? | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | fungi : also a reasonable way to change it | 20:58 |
| johnthetubaguy | so its all an estimate, not sure there will ever by a good "automated" way to do it | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | In case ppl have some spare time for a meetbot review: https://review.openstack.org/342069 | 20:58 |
| fungi | also, as we know, adding metrics brings pervese incentives to make behavioral changes to meet the metric rather than to necessarily do what the metric intends to try and measure | 20:58 |
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| fungi | so i can see it encouraging core reviewers to focus on quick and easy reviews (to corvus's point) so they meet their quota | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | fungi: yeah, that's the main point against having an explicit definition of what "active" is | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | which is also why I've split this into several reviews | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | one for the code changes and another for the wording | 20:59 |
| mtreinish | johnthetubaguy: well, thats kinda why I +1'd it, best first effort. We can try to get better in the future or formalize giving up trying and make it subjective | 20:59 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : we want to accurately reflect how active people are, so we can accurately reflect how robust a team is, so users of projects can understand whether teams are stable or subject to the whims of a single corporate entity | 20:59 |
| johnthetubaguy | mtreinish: same here | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | mtreinish: ++ | 20:59 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so we are doing well with open | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | 1 min left | 21:00 |
| mugsie | dhellmann: is there an issue we need solved, based on this? a projects that needs to have the tag removed, or the sibgle verndor one applied, based on this discussion | 21:00 |
| * flaper87 takes a deep breath before shouting good night to everyone | 21:00 | |
| mugsie | or, should we deal with this on project basis? | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | mugsie: this is not targeting a single project, fwiw | 21:00 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : looking at some of the teams, we think they're less diverse than our current definition implies, yes | 21:01 |
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| flaper87 | ok, time's up | 21:01 |
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| flaper87 | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 26 21:01:17 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-07-26-20.02.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-07-26-20.02.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-07-26-20.02.log.html | 21:01 |
| mugsie | o/ | 21:01 |
| jroll | thanks flaper87 | 21:01 |
| dtroyer | thanks flaper87 | 21:01 |
| flaper87 | my pleasure | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | thanks, flaper87, good job keeping us on topic today :-) | 21:01 |
| flaper87 | *phew* | 21:01 |
| dims_ | shit, i missed the meeting !! | 21:01 |
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| mtreinish | dims_: heh :) | 21:02 |
| jmlowe | dims_: no problem, you can join ours starting any second now | 21:02 |
| b1airo | dims_, you can join ours! | 21:02 |
| dims_ | apologies! | 21:02 |
| oneswig | Ready for scientific WG? | 21:02 |
| dims_ | LOL. cool | 21:02 |
| b1airo | #startmeeting scientific-wg | 21:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 26 21:02:54 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is b1airo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'scientific_wg' | 21:02 |
| b1airo | #chair oneswig | 21:03 |
| openstack | Current chairs: b1airo oneswig | 21:03 |
| oneswig | Greetings | 21:03 |
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| b1airo | hi all o/ | 21:03 |
| leong | o/ | 21:03 |
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| jmlowe | hello | 21:03 |
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| oneswig | Where to begin? | 21:04 |
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| b1airo | hi leong, is that Yih Leong Sun from Intel? | 21:04 |
| mordred | oneswig: I misread the meeting start and thought that the topic was "oneswig" and I thought I'd clearly missed the addition of a project | 21:04 |
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| leong | yes b1airo | 21:04 |
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| anteaya | isunil: this is the scientific working group meeting | 21:04 |
| b1airo | mordred, lol | 21:04 |
| anteaya | isunil: you were an hour early | 21:04 |
| * mordred goes back into his hole | 21:04 | |
| oneswig | mordred: my life is a project but comparison to openstack is debatable... | 21:04 |
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| dims_ | lol mordred | 21:04 |
| b1airo | catchy names are required to stand out in the big tent | 21:05 |
| oneswig | oneswig: more of a peg than a tent | 21:05 |
| b1airo | leong, great so we can talk about openhpc today then! | 21:05 |
| dims_ | need a mascot now too b1airo | 21:05 |
| rockyg | oh, man, mordred , OneSwig would be a great project name! | 21:05 |
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| b1airo | or is it OnesWig | 21:05 |
| leong | sure! b1airo | 21:06 |
| oneswig | rockyg: In the Queen's English, indeed, One's Wig? | 21:06 |
| b1airo | ahh dear me, let's get into it then | 21:06 |
| rockyg | oneswig, that give the project with that name even possibly a reason to be! | 21:06 |
| jmlowe | two's complement | 21:06 |
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| b1airo | so this week we want to talk about: | 21:07 |
| b1airo | 1) SC16 activities | 21:07 |
| b1airo | 2) OpenHPC | 21:07 |
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| b1airo | 3) any news in our focus areas | 21:07 |
| b1airo | #topic SC16 activities | 21:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "SC16 activities (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:08 | |
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| b1airo | quick recap | 21:08 |
| b1airo | we have a panel session already scheduled at SC | 21:09 |
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| b1airo | oneswig, I can't recall - did we end up getting confirmation from everyone listed? | 21:09 |
| oneswig | I don't know, I think confirmation went to a person at SC | 21:09 |
| oneswig | I confirmed... | 21:10 |
| oneswig | Sure you did too | 21:10 |
| b1airo | not sure whether we heard from Kate or not? | 21:10 |
| oneswig | There must have been similar responses from others? | 21:10 |
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| katekeahey | You have not -- is it OK to confirm now? | 21:11 |
| leong | our team also planning for a BoF, maybe we can coordinate? | 21:11 |
| oneswig | Hi Kate! | 21:11 |
| jmlowe | hey, Kate's here | 21:11 |
| b1airo | hi katekeahey, yes great | 21:11 |
| katekeahey | Hello -- do we know yet when the panel is scheduled? | 21:11 |
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| b1airo | no i don't think the programme is out yet | 21:12 |
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| b1airo | i also notice that i have email soliciting "Final Panel Information" by 1st Aug | 21:12 |
| oneswig | Michaela Taufer? | 21:13 |
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| oneswig | Did you get mail from her Kate? | 21:13 |
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| katekeahey | Mail from Michaela? (I get a lot of mail from her but I don't think I got anything about the panel) | 21:14 |
| b1airo | oneswig, yes | 21:14 |
| katekeahey | Do you want me to ask her? | 21:14 |
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| oneswig | Aha, digging further back: "Your panel has been tentatively scheduled for Thu Nov 17, 3:30pm-5pm. " | 21:14 |
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| b1airo | it's basically just a confirmation of the submission we already submitted, but there is a chance to add panelist bios | 21:14 |
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| b1airo | oneswig, nice find | 21:14 |
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| katekeahey | OK, excellent so it looks like we have a date -- I should be able to make it | 21:15 |
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| hogepodge | This is Chris from the OSF. I'll be at SC this year, and I'm available for any booth duty or events. | 21:16 |
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| oneswig | katekeahey: I think things continue as they are by default, from a quick scan. I don't think you need to explicitly confirm but perhaps it wouldn't hurt to do so | 21:16 |
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| oneswig | Hi Chris - did you see the mail on user-committee from jmlowe on Indiana University's booth? | 21:17 |
| b1airo | presumably submissions.supercomputing.org will tell you if there are any outstanding actions | 21:17 |
| katekeahey | I should confirm to Bill then? | 21:17 |
| hogepodge | oneswig: I did, I will reply to it | 21:18 |
| jmlowe | I was just pinged again today about booth talks, so the sooner the better, it's not a lot just a line or two so the schedule can be made | 21:18 |
| oneswig | katekeahey: if you don't have any mails from SC's organising committee about this, probably worth figuring out | 21:18 |
| jmlowe | both small, I'm going to say up to 10 people, and large, 30 or so | 21:19 |
| katekeahey | OK, let me send mail then | 21:19 |
| b1airo | I think we have confirmation (email or chat) from everyone currently on the panel programme: katekeahey, Jon Mills, jmlowe, Robert Budden, oneswig, b1airo | 21:20 |
| oneswig | jmlowe: your deadline for submissions is 1st August? | 21:20 |
| jmlowe | friday, if at all possible | 21:20 |
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| jmlowe | 6/29 | 21:21 |
| b1airo | oneswig, did you say you were going to follow up to the panel thread? | 21:21 |
| anteaya | 7/29 | 21:21 |
| oneswig | jmlowe: I'll do a lightning talk on our OpenStack project at Cambridge - have to do it for the Bof (if it goes through) anyway | 21:21 |
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| oneswig | b1airo: sorry, you mean on the wording of the Bof? | 21:22 |
| jmlowe | that's great, sounds like a thing for a small talk, you can expect a big talk on jetstream in our booth of course | 21:22 |
| b1airo | oh no sorry, confused myself, that was hogepodge | 21:22 |
| b1airo | oneswig, do you see any "action" required in the submissions interface? | 21:23 |
| jmlowe | anteaya: yep, thanks, where did the time go? | 21:23 |
| anteaya | jmlowe: my thoughts exactly | 21:23 |
| oneswig | jmlowe: A talk on how we might use the work from Jetstream at Cambridge for example might tick some boxes? | 21:23 |
| jmlowe | sure | 21:23 |
| oneswig | jmlowe: I'll get to work on it :-) | 21:24 |
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| leong | do we have a BoF for SC16? | 21:24 |
| b1airo | ok so... | 21:24 |
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| jmlowe | I'm thinking some sort of "cloud and hpc w/ openstack helps you collaborate and easily move your work around" theme | 21:25 |
| b1airo | #action all: to follow up with jmlowe asap re. booth talks | 21:25 |
| b1airo | #action b1airo: ask SC16 panelists for Bio details | 21:25 |
| jmlowe | I can probably sell that | 21:25 |
| hogepodge | If we can encourage some academic clouds to consider adding identity federation to help share resources, that would be great | 21:25 |
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| hogepodge | along the line of collaborating and moving work loads | 21:26 |
| b1airo | leong, we are writing a BoF proposal at the moment, already have a panel | 21:26 |
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| b1airo | hogepodge, there is a reasonable amount of interest in that but i think many of us are unclear about the technical requirements | 21:27 |
| leong | our team is interested for a BoF as well, maybe we can collaborate ? | 21:27 |
| jmlowe | hogepodge: rbudden and I along with some others are working on setting up a xsede keystone with the express purpose of federating it with anybody and everybody | 21:27 |
| b1airo | jmlowe, sounds like something NeCTAR would be interested in | 21:28 |
| b1airo | leong, what topic were you thinking about? | 21:28 |
| hogepodge | b1airo: I can help out | 21:28 |
| hogepodge | jmlowe: that sounds great | 21:28 |
| leong | something along the line with OpenHPC + OpenStack | 21:28 |
| oneswig | leong: Do you have a proposal in the works? Makes sense to join them if so, increase the weighting | 21:28 |
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| jmlowe | I added this to the bof submission today "It is the intent of this BOF to provide the broader HPC community with examples of HPC work being done, lessons learned, and best practices from members of the OpenStack community." | 21:29 |
| anteaya | oneswig: nice direction | 21:29 |
| katekeahey | Is there a specific objective for the BOF? (such as for example to hear from the HPC community to what extent they would be interested in adopting either OpenStack or more generally IaaS type model?) | 21:29 |
| * anteaya is so heartened when witnessing collaboration | 21:29 | |
| anteaya | thank you scientific group | 21:29 |
| oneswig | leong: Wouldn't a BoF be about something people are already established with using? OpenHPC + OpenStack sounds like something on the event horizon | 21:29 |
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| leong | oneswig, i will discuss with my OpenHPC team on more details | 21:31 |
| b1airo | oneswig, that's what i was thinking too, but certainly relevant in the context of the OpenStack BoF | 21:31 |
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| b1airo | katekeahey, we'll send you the draft link... | 21:31 |
| katekeahey | Ah, fantastic, I figured there must be some shared context -- thank you! | 21:32 |
| oneswig | leong: Not to say I'm not highly interested in OpenHPC, it's the kind of topic I'd be very interested to discuss (among others) | 21:32 |
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| leong | i understand :-) | 21:32 |
| b1airo | so there is one question on the BoF submission that we need to sort out | 21:32 |
| leong | that can also be a potential topic to discuss at Barcelona summit | 21:32 |
| b1airo | (other than paring it down) | 21:32 |
| b1airo | we need a "primary session leader" | 21:33 |
| jmlowe | straws? | 21:33 |
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| b1airo | also katekeahey - the intent with the BoF is for folks interested in HPC on OpenStack | 21:34 |
| oneswig | Bill? | 21:34 |
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| b1airo | so it's sort of continuing on from the one Jon Mills led last year, which was generally cloud focused I believe, and this time being opinionated about using OpenStack | 21:34 |
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| b1airo | oneswig, yes could be Bill i guess. best if it is someone recognisable in the SC/HPC community | 21:35 |
| b1airo | jmlowe, you are most welcome to lead it if you like, no need for straws :-) | 21:36 |
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| b1airo | though we haven't heard from Jon for a while, he might expect to be doing it, so need to ping him | 21:37 |
| jmlowe | I thought it was convention that the short straw lost and would have to lead | 21:37 |
| b1airo | jmlowe - haha, you've exposed my graciousness as an act of laziness :-) | 21:38 |
| jmlowe | I'd do if if you had exhausted the list of better candidates | 21:39 |
| oneswig | Is everyone holding a straw? This one looks long | 21:39 |
| b1airo | ok, let's take this to email then oneswig ? | 21:40 |
| oneswig | b1airo: good plan, we can't speak for absent friends | 21:40 |
| b1airo | #action oneswig, b1airo: email lists and members re. BoF leaders and participants | 21:41 |
| b1airo | we need a rough idea of the numbers too, but i'm guessing it's going to be large | 21:41 |
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| b1airo | ok, any objections to moving on so we can here about what leong and Intel are up to in the OpenHPC - OpenStack integration space? | 21:42 |
| b1airo | s/here/hear/ | 21:43 |
| oneswig | go ahead | 21:43 |
| b1airo | #topic OpenHPC - OpenStack Integration | 21:43 |
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| b1airo | leong, want to give us a run down? | 21:43 |
| leong | sure.. | 21:43 |
| leong | we are starting a project for OpenHPC and OpenStack | 21:44 |
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| leong | investigating on how to integrate these two technologies together | 21:44 |
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| oneswig | leong: what do you see as the points of contact, and is there conflict/overlap at all? | 21:45 |
| anteaya | have existing projects been evaluated to see if any are a close fit? | 21:45 |
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| leong | we are now looking at OpenStack Ironic | 21:45 |
| anteaya | leong: awesome thank you | 21:45 |
| anteaya | jroll: ^^ | 21:45 |
| jroll | hi | 21:46 |
| leong | is still at the early stages of investigation.. | 21:46 |
| anteaya | jroll: thought you would want to be here for this | 21:46 |
| leong | but Ironic is identified as our initial project to integrate with | 21:46 |
| anteaya | wonderful | 21:46 |
| anteaya | leong: please meet jroll the Ironic PTL | 21:46 |
| jroll | that is great | 21:46 |
| anteaya | jroll: leong | 21:46 |
| leong | isunil is my team, he just join this discussion | 21:46 |
| isunil | Hello | 21:47 |
| anteaya | wonderful | 21:47 |
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| oneswig | leong: Is OpenHPC expected to image+boot HPC node instances on demand in this scenario? | 21:47 |
| leong | there is nothing much to report today, i just want to bring up the conversation and interest in this group? | 21:47 |
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| anteaya | I think meeting some ironic folks is a good first step | 21:48 |
| leong | oneswig, that can be one scenario, but we haven't got into that level of details yet | 21:48 |
| anteaya | I'm sure they can help you evaluate if ironic is a good fit | 21:48 |
| jmlowe | sure, I bet Bridges at PSC would be really interested | 21:48 |
| oneswig | leong: plenty of interest. If your focus is on Ironic, I wonder if OpenHPC might contribute a scalable way of imaging x thousand nodes simultaneously | 21:48 |
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| leong | we will keep this team updated on our progress | 21:49 |
| jmlowe | I think I remember rbudden (sends his regrets as he is on vacation) saying that it took 8 hours to image all of his ironic nodes | 21:49 |
| b1airo | oneswig, isn't that a problem the Rocks guys have had a pretty good solution to for some years? | 21:49 |
| leong | i'm wondering we can have further discussion at Barcelona for this OpenHPC topic | 21:49 |
| anteaya | jmlowe: with an image that already was built? or does that include building the image? | 21:50 |
| leong | we will probably have more results to share along the next few months | 21:50 |
| isunil | oneswig: I am new to OpenStack, excuse me for dumb question: is scalable provisioning via irnoic has a concern? | 21:50 |
| oneswig | b1airo: question is how to fit it into multi-tenant environment... | 21:50 |
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| jmlowe | anteaya: not sure, wasn't paying attention | 21:50 |
| anteaya | jmlowe: okay, image builds often take the infra team a considerable amount of time | 21:50 |
| oneswig | jmlowe: anteaya: my recollection was more like 2 days to image the whole lot (but was jetlagged at the time) | 21:50 |
| leong | there is some scalability concern when scheduling x-thounsand deployment | 21:51 |
| b1airo | for the record: http://www.rocksclusters.org/rocks-doc/papers/two-pager/paper.pdf | 21:51 |
| anteaya | oneswig: /nod | 21:51 |
| jroll | oneswig: ironic gained multitenant networking this cycle, there's just one nova patch left to go, I hope to see that in the newton release | 21:51 |
| anteaya | b1airo: thanks for the pdf | 21:51 |
| jmlowe | isunil: my understanding is that ironic as a whole doesn't scale well, single threaded and has trouble walking a large number of nodes | 21:51 |
| oneswig | jroll: that is so great, well done | 21:51 |
| jroll | jmlowe: define scale? ironic handles thousands of nodes pretty well | 21:52 |
| leong | that is one area we need to work closely with Ironic team on the scalability | 21:52 |
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| jroll | I'll admit there's work to do on simultaneous deployments, multicasting images and such | 21:52 |
| jmlowe | jroll: I don't run it, just foggy beer soaked recollections from war stories in Austin | 21:52 |
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| anteaya | jmlowe: if you can recollect any data with links, do share | 21:53 |
| oneswig | leong: if you came looking for ideas for work, I think you found it :-) | 21:53 |
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| jroll | jmlowe: hm, data would be nice :) | 21:53 |
| anteaya | jmlowe: folks in the #openstack-ironic channel are most friendly | 21:53 |
| jroll | indee | 21:53 |
| jroll | d | 21:53 |
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| leong | jroll, will ping you further when we can into OpenHPC integration with Ironic | 21:54 |
| b1airo | leong, so one thing i'd suggest is that you focus on things a little higher up the stack. to me openhpc looks promising from the perspective of a hpc SOE (insofar as that is an achievable thing). whatever you're doing you'd presumably want it to work for bare-metal and virtualised clusters? | 21:54 |
| oneswig | jroll: is there any work done on using pull models based on swift urls within tripleo for ironic? | 21:54 |
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| jroll | leong: cool | 21:54 |
| leong | sure b1airo | 21:54 |
| anteaya | leong: better yet, join the #openstack-ironic channel and be aware of the chat | 21:54 |
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| jroll | oneswig: I don't work on tripleo, but ironic certainly supports pulling images from swift for deployment | 21:54 |
| * devananda notices all the chatter about ironic, perks up a bit late to the conversation | 21:55 | |
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| b1airo | so the OpenStack integration could e.g. use Heat as the integration point with Nova or Ironic behind ? | 21:55 |
| jroll | I assume tripleo supports it, just needs swift and the right driver selected | 21:55 |
| anteaya | devananda: welcome | 21:55 |
| oneswig | Hi devananda | 21:55 |
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| b1airo | hi devananda | 21:56 |
| leong | we have 5 mins to the hour.. i will work with our OpenHPC team and came out with a plan on how to move this forward | 21:56 |
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| oneswig | jroll: is the pull-based deployment documented in ironic dev docs? Perhaps I should start at the tripleo end. | 21:56 |
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| b1airo | leong, do you have a goal for this project at this stage? | 21:56 |
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| anteaya | leong: here is some information on the ironic weekly meeting: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Ironic_(Bare_Metal)_Team_Meeting | 21:56 |
| b1airo | or is it not yet rubber-stamped by "the business" | 21:56 |
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| jroll | oneswig: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/ironic/drivers/ipa.html | 21:57 |
| anteaya | working with an existing project would really reduce your project maintenance over head | 21:57 |
| devananda | oneswig: tripleo is a means to deploy openstack -- it's not specifically about HPC or about Ironic | 21:57 |
| oneswig | Thanks jroll looks clear as always. | 21:57 |
| jroll | :) | 21:58 |
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| oneswig | devananda: no but it does use it (the other way) | 21:58 |
| anteaya | helping a current project with testing and docs is far easier than setting it all up yourself | 21:58 |
| isunil | b1airo: we are right now @very early stage for openHPC & OpenStack integration. | 21:58 |
| devananda | is there documentation or a reference somewhere I could read that explains what openHPC is, what the project goals are, and what the current implementation status is? | 21:58 |
| b1airo | hi Sunil | 21:58 |
| oneswig | isunil: leong: got a blog we can track? | 21:59 |
| b1airo | devananda, there is code of course :-) | 21:59 |
| b1airo | https://github.com/openhpc/ohpc | 21:59 |
| isunil | http://openhpc.community | 21:59 |
| oneswig | The bell chimes | 22:00 |
| oneswig | We are out of time | 22:00 |
| b1airo | indeed | 22:00 |
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| b1airo | sorry no time for AOB today! | 22:01 |
| leong | let me follow up with my team and we can discuss next time | 22:01 |
| oneswig | Thanks everyone, leong looking forward to it | 22:01 |
| b1airo | please take it to the list if there is anything to discuss | 22:01 |
| oneswig | b1airo: +1 | 22:01 |
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| b1airo | anteaya, jroll devananda - thanks for jumping on-demand | 22:01 |
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| jmlowe | leong: while you are here, I definitely want to meet up in Barcelona | 22:02 |
| b1airo | s/jumping/jumping in/ | 22:02 |
| jroll | blogan: welcome :) | 22:02 |
| leong | sure! | 22:02 |
| anteaya | sure, thanks for collaborating | 22:02 |
| leong | jmlowe | 22:02 |
| anteaya | so heartening | 22:02 |
| oneswig | Until next week... | 22:02 |
| anteaya | jroll: second character is the number one | 22:02 |
| anteaya | jroll: took me a few tries too | 22:02 |
| b1airo | #endmeeting | 22:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 26 22:02:57 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-07-26-21.02.html | 22:03 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-07-26-21.02.txt | 22:03 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-07-26-21.02.log.html | 22:03 |
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| jroll | anteaya: hm? | 22:03 |
| b1airo | anteaya, yeah i think the blair lurker in this channel is me too (an IRC bouncer i setup a while back but haven't got my settings sorted on this machine) | 22:03 |
| devananda | b1airo: fwiw, there are folks currently using ironic for provisioning HPC clusters. the project initially grew out of a join HPC research group from NTT and USC-ISI | 22:04 |
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| anteaya | jroll: b 1 <tab> | 22:04 |
| anteaya | b1airo: ah | 22:04 |
| anteaya | blair: there you are | 22:05 |
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| b1airo | devananda, yes we have some of them in the scientific-wg :-) | 22:05 |
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| jroll | anteaya: aha, I see it now, sorry b1airo :) | 22:05 |
| b1airo | np jroll | 22:05 |
| anteaya | jroll: no worries, great multitasking | 22:05 |
| b1airo | i knew what you meant | 22:05 |
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| b1airo | devananda, we haven't tried HPC provisioning with Ironic yet, but definitely interested. in Austin i heard some reports of scalability issues but i'm not too concerned about that as we aren't dealing with thousands of nodes anyway and by the time we get to it we'll be benefiting from the efforts of those trying to use it at scale | 22:06 |
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| devananda | b1airo: if configured appropriately, Ironic should be fine with 10^3 nodes, though there are definitely improvements we can make around parallel deployments to avoid saturating the network | 22:08 |
| devananda | b1airo: there were a couple developers from Cray working on scaling it to 10^5 nodes, but I haven't seen much work come from that team in about a year, I think | 22:09 |
| b1airo | yeah that's why i mentioned the Rocks installer - the p2p idea is a nice one | 22:09 |
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| devananda | we've drafted designs for p2p or multicast deployments several times, but no one's been motivated to do the work so far ... | 22:09 |
| devananda | I know several folks on the team would be eager to review / assist with that, if someone championed the development of such | 22:10 |
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| b1airo | good to know it's on the radar. i must run. thanks! | 22:12 |
| devananda | ciao! | 22:12 |
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