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| hongbin | #startmeeting higgins | 03:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 7 03:00:11 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 03:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 03:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'higgins' | 03:00 |
| hongbin | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Higgins#Agenda_for_2016-06-07_0300_UTC Today's agenda | 03:00 |
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| hongbin | #topic Roll Call | 03:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:00 | |
| yuanying_ | OTSUKA, Yuanying | 03:00 |
| sudipto | o/ | 03:00 |
| mkrai | Madhuri Kumari | 03:00 |
| Wenzhi | Wenzhi Yu | 03:00 |
| Namrata | o/ | 03:00 |
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| yanyanhu | hello | 03:00 |
| Vivek__ | o/ | 03:00 |
| sbalukoff | Hello! | 03:00 |
| Wang__Jian | o/ | 03:00 |
| haiwei_ | hi | 03:01 |
| shu-mutou | (^o^)/ | 03:01 |
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| adisky | hii | 03:01 |
| Qiming | o/ | 03:01 |
| eliqiao | o/ | 03:01 |
| hongbin | Thanks for joining the meeting yuanying_ sudipto mkrai Wenzhi Namrata yanyanhu Vivek__ sbalukoff Wang__Jian haiwei_ shu-mutou adisky Qiming eliqiao | 03:01 |
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| hongbin | #topic Announcements | 03:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:01 | |
| flwang | o/ | 03:02 |
| hongbin | I have no annoucement | 03:02 |
| hongbin | hey flwang | 03:02 |
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| flwang | hongbin: hi | 03:02 |
| hongbin | Anyone has annoucement? | 03:02 |
| flwang | will we talk about the new name? | 03:02 |
| hongbin | yes | 03:02 |
| hongbin | #topic Review Action Items | 03:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Items (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:02 | |
| hongbin | 1. hongbin collect a list of advanced features (DONE) | 03:02 |
| hongbin | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/python-higgins?searchtext=%5Blong-term-idea%5D | 03:02 |
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| hongbin | I created a few BPs for tracking long-term ideas | 03:03 |
| flwang | cool\ | 03:03 |
| hongbin | If you have any long-term ideas, please submit a BP and mark it as [long-term-idea] | 03:03 |
| hongbin | We will revisit them one-by-one | 03:03 |
| hongbin | Any comment about that? | 03:04 |
| sudipto | hongbin, great! | 03:04 |
| Qiming | sounds good | 03:04 |
| Wenzhi | good | 03:04 |
| hongbin | 2. hongbin raise a ML to collect idea of project naming (DONE) | 03:04 |
| hongbin | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-June/096318.html | 03:04 |
| hongbin | #link https://lists.launchpad.net/launchpad-users/msg06826.html Request for launchpad to rename | 03:04 |
| hongbin | I raised a ML in openstack-dev, it seems most people like the name "Zun" | 03:04 |
| yanyanhu | aha | 03:05 |
| hongbin | However, another thing is | 03:05 |
| yanyanhu | yep | 03:05 |
| flwang | again, i like Zun | 03:05 |
| Qiming | including me | 03:05 |
| hongbin | I contacted the launchpad "higgins" owner | 03:05 |
| mkrai | +1 for Zun | 03:05 |
| hongbin | He said he is willing to give the name "higgins" to us | 03:05 |
| Wenzhi | haha... | 03:05 |
| sbalukoff | Hmmm... Zun is pronounced a lot like Xen. Just sayin' ;) | 03:05 |
| hongbin | In this case, I am still OK to rename it to "Zun" if you like | 03:05 |
| mkrai | That would be great | 03:06 |
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| flwang | hongbin: should we vote? | 03:06 |
| hongbin | sure, want to vote? | 03:06 |
| yanyanhu | +1 for renaming :) | 03:06 |
| mkrai | I think we should keep it higgins then | 03:06 |
| mkrai | Ok vote | 03:06 |
| eliqiao | lots of codes are hard coded as higgins | 03:06 |
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| eliqiao | we'd better to change the name as early as long | 03:06 |
| flwang | eliqiao: then it's good time to fix it :) | 03:06 |
| hongbin | #vote Project name? higgins, zun | 03:07 |
| eliqiao | yeah, I agree, the earlier the better. | 03:07 |
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| hongbin | #startvote what is project name? Higgins, Zun | 03:07 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: what is project name? Valid vote options are Higgins, Zun. | 03:07 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 03:07 |
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| Qiming | #vote Zun | 03:07 |
| mkrai | #vote Higgins | 03:07 |
| yuanying_ | #vote Zun | 03:07 |
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| yanyanhu | #vote Zun | 03:07 |
| Namrata | #vote Zun | 03:07 |
| adisky | #vote Higgins | 03:07 |
| Vivek__ | #vote Higgins | 03:07 |
| fnaval_ | #vote Higgins | 03:07 |
| sudipto | #vote Higgins | 03:07 |
| Wang__Jian | #vote Higgins | 03:07 |
| haiwei_ | #vote Zun | 03:07 |
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| eliqiao | #vote Zun | 03:07 |
| shu-mutou | #vote Zun | 03:08 |
| flwang | #vote Zun | 03:08 |
| hongbin | I guess everyone has voted? | 03:08 |
| hongbin | #endvote | 03:08 |
| openstack | Voted on "what is project name?" Results are | 03:08 |
| openstack | Zun (8): eliqiao, shu-mutou, Qiming, Namrata, flwang, haiwei_, yuanying_, yanyanhu | 03:08 |
| openstack | Higgins (6): Vivek__, mkrai, Wang__Jian, sudipto, fnaval_, adisky | 03:08 |
| sheel | ah sorry..I missed | 03:08 |
| sheel | btw, my vote is for higgins | 03:08 |
| hongbin | Then, Zun still win | 03:09 |
| adisky | :) | 03:09 |
| hongbin | Zun has 8 votes | 03:09 |
| mkrai | hongbin: what's your vote? | 03:09 |
| hongbin | Higgins has 7 votes | 03:09 |
| sheel | ^^ | 03:09 |
| hongbin | mkrai: I am OK with both :) | 03:09 |
| sheel | to save a tie, its best option :) | 03:09 |
| sudipto | +1 hongbin | 03:09 |
| mkrai | Me too but I just wanted to avoid the renaming effort | 03:09 |
| hongbin | Then, let't rename it to Zun | 03:10 |
| hongbin | #agreed rename project name to Zun | 03:10 |
| hongbin | #topic Drive consensus on project scope | 03:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Drive consensus on project scope (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:10 | |
| flwang | hongbin: and i have already got the support from Monty and ttx for the name | 03:10 |
| Qiming | right, if we are gonna rename it, then do it NOW | 03:10 |
| flwang | s/i/we | 03:10 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/container-management-service etherpad for collaborating on project requirements | 03:10 |
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| hongbin | #action hongbin submit a request to rename the project | 03:10 |
| hongbin | 1. Nova integration | 03:11 |
| mkrai | I will do it for higginsclient | 03:11 |
| hongbin | mkrai: thx | 03:11 |
| mkrai | Is there any bp for this now? | 03:11 |
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| hongbin | OK, then let's back to the project scope discussion | 03:11 |
| hongbin | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/python-higgins/+spec/nova-integration | 03:11 |
| hongbin | We discussed the idea in the last meeting | 03:12 |
| hongbin | This is a continued discussion | 03:12 |
| eliqiao | the plan for nova integration is in 'Zun' side? | 03:12 |
| hongbin | eliqiao: ?? | 03:12 |
| hongbin | eliqiao: Like a Zun virt-driver for Nova | 03:12 |
| eliqiao | as for as I know, nova has reached spec freeze now. | 03:12 |
| sudipto | eliqiao, yup | 03:13 |
| hongbin | We don't have to get it into Nova tree | 03:13 |
| eliqiao | ya, so in Newton, we can not nothing in nova. | 03:13 |
| hongbin | We can have the driver in our repo at the beginning | 03:13 |
| eliqiao | hmm. and nova team doesn't support out-of-tree virt-driver. | 03:13 |
| mkrai | This can live in zun repo | 03:13 |
| yanyanhu | eliqiao, I think it's ok to keep it in zun repo in current stage | 03:13 |
| yanyanhu | yea | 03:13 |
| hongbin | eliqiao: really? | 03:14 |
| hongbin | eliqiao: ............ | 03:14 |
| eliqiao | ya, I will find a link | 03:14 |
| flwang | hongbin: yep, we can have a separate project temporarily for the driver | 03:14 |
| eliqiao | we may need to hack nove code. | 03:14 |
| yanyanhu | ... | 03:14 |
| hongbin | However, Nova should be designed to be pluggable | 03:14 |
| mkrai | Agree hongbin | 03:15 |
| flwang | hongbin: +1 and we do port it in next release | 03:15 |
| flwang | that's not a big deal, IMHO | 03:15 |
| hongbin | Yes | 03:15 |
| hongbin | Everyone agree to have a Zun virt-driver for Nova? | 03:15 |
| hongbin | Any opposing point of view? | 03:15 |
| mkrai | +1 | 03:15 |
| yanyanhu | +1 | 03:15 |
| Qiming | +1 | 03:16 |
| Wenzhi | +1 | 03:16 |
| Namrata | +1 | 03:16 |
| haiwei_ | +1 | 03:16 |
| shu-mutou | +1 | 03:16 |
| hongbin | #agreed Nova integration is in the scope of project | 03:16 |
| sheel | +1 | 03:16 |
| Vivek__ | +1 | 03:16 |
| hongbin | OK. Next one | 03:16 |
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| hongbin | 2. Neutron/Kuryr integration | 03:16 |
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| eliqiao | +1 | 03:17 |
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| hongbin | BTW, if anyone interest to work on Nova integration, we requires a spec | 03:17 |
| hongbin | And here is the BP: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/python-higgins/+spec/nova-integration | 03:17 |
| hongbin | I think we need a spec to clearify the design | 03:18 |
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| hongbin | OK. That is it for the Nova integration | 03:18 |
| sheel | I can help in that but wont be able to take sole ownership | 03:18 |
| adisky | i will also | 03:18 |
| adisky | i will give spec for nova integration along with sheel | 03:19 |
| hongbin | adisky: thx | 03:19 |
| hongbin | OK. Second item | 03:20 |
| adisky | :) | 03:20 |
| hongbin | 2. Neutron/Kuryr integration | 03:20 |
| sudipto | sheel, adisky i can help with reviews :) | 03:20 |
| sheel | sudipto: great | 03:20 |
| adisky | thnx sudipto... | 03:20 |
| sudipto | hongbin, +1 | 03:20 |
| hongbin | For neutron/kuryr integration, I think it is a must do | 03:21 |
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| hongbin | At least for neutron integration, it is a must | 03:21 |
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| sudipto | hongbin, agreed! | 03:21 |
| Wenzhi | agreed | 03:21 |
| yanyanhu | yes, definitely, otherwise, we can't call zun container service "in openstack" | 03:21 |
| hongbin | OK, it seems everyone agree | 03:22 |
| mkrai | We need expertise with networking for this | 03:22 |
| Qiming | does kuryr have a clearly defined scope? | 03:22 |
| mkrai | I am interested in it but not sure what it takes to work on Kuryr | 03:22 |
| Qiming | is it only about networking or is it about storage too? | 03:22 |
| hongbin | Qiming: ?? | 03:22 |
| hongbin | Qiming: Kuryr will do both | 03:22 |
| hongbin | Network and stokrage | 03:22 |
| hongbin | storage | 03:23 |
| Qiming | okay | 03:23 |
| hongbin | #agreed Nuetron/Kuryr integration is in scope | 03:23 |
| hongbin | For our side, we agreed to use Kuryr for networking | 03:24 |
| hongbin | I am not sure the storage part | 03:24 |
| haiwei_ | so Zun will integrate with kuryr for both network and storage? | 03:24 |
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| hongbin | We can discuss hte storage part | 03:24 |
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| hongbin | For me, I cannot tell how Kuryr is going to do the storage part | 03:25 |
| hongbin | The code is not there at all | 03:25 |
| yanyanhu | quick question, storage here only means something about "volume"? | 03:25 |
| hongbin | yanyanhu: Yes, it means cinder volume for container data volume | 03:25 |
| yanyanhu | I see | 03:25 |
| sheel | yanyanhu: I think yes... It seems related to Zun and cinder integratino | 03:25 |
| sheel | hongbin: right? | 03:26 |
| hongbin | sheel: yes | 03:26 |
| eliqiao | hongbin: should volume part, it will be a driver of Zun? | 03:26 |
| hongbin | eliqiao: not sure, maybe it can be a driver | 03:26 |
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| hongbin | eliqiao: however, Zun will be duplicated with Cinder if we want to implement a voume driver? | 03:27 |
| eliqiao | for now, we don't have any agent(maybe Kuryr) on the Host, how can we handle any driver functions | 03:27 |
| hongbin | We need to implement a agent (like nova-compute) | 03:27 |
| hongbin | IMO | 03:27 |
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| eliqiao | hongbin: agreed | 03:27 |
| Wenzhi | agreed | 03:27 |
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| hongbin | Everyone, Kuryr for storage? or pure Cinder for volume? | 03:28 |
| hongbin | Or decide it later? | 03:28 |
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| adisky | decide it later | 03:28 |
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| sheel | pure cinder for volume | 03:28 |
| mkrai | We need to look at Kuryr part also | 03:29 |
| yanyanhu | that depends on the maturity of Kuryr I think | 03:29 |
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| mkrai | so I think we should decide later | 03:29 |
| hongbin | yanyanhu: yes | 03:29 |
| Wang__Jian | decide later, | 03:29 |
| haiwei_ | currently kuryr storage seems too far to be used | 03:29 |
| yanyanhu | and IMHO, maybe cinder is a better start point | 03:29 |
| sheel | haiwei_: yes and cinder seems stable | 03:29 |
| Wenzhi | not familiar with Kuryr, but Cinder is reliable | 03:29 |
| sheel | yanyanhu: +1 | 03:29 |
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| hongbin | Then, we start with Cinder, and decide to switch to Kuryr later if it makes sense | 03:30 |
| mkrai | +1 | 03:30 |
| sheel | hongbin: seems right choice | 03:30 |
| Wenzhi | hongbin: sounds like a plan | 03:30 |
| sheel | +1 | 03:30 |
| adisky | +1 | 03:30 |
| shu-mutou | +1 | 03:30 |
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| yanyanhu | +1 | 03:30 |
| hongbin | #agreed start with Cinder integration and revisit Kuryr later | 03:30 |
| Wang__Jian | +1 | 03:30 |
| hongbin | 4. Glance integration | 03:31 |
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| hongbin | We discussed this in hte previous meeting | 03:31 |
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| hongbin | We can use Glance for storing container images | 03:31 |
| sudipto | sorry i missed the last meeting but i find the support of docker fs in glance inadequate at the moment. I will talk to flwang and see if he agrees. | 03:31 |
| sudipto | but unless we are looking at just storing the docker images ...it might be alright. | 03:32 |
| hongbin | sudipto: Glance don't support other container images? | 03:33 |
| sudipto | but i feel glance could be a meta-store of docker images, then storing the binaries again via "docker save" | 03:33 |
| flwang | hongbin: glance doesn't support layered images for now | 03:33 |
| sudipto | hongbin, well it does...but only static .gz files. | 03:33 |
| hongbin | bummer | 03:33 |
| flwang | sudipto: +1 | 03:33 |
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| sudipto | flwang, I will chat with you about this, glare might be another option... | 03:34 |
| flwang | sudipto: cool | 03:34 |
| sudipto | however, the support needs to be built up. | 03:34 |
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| hongbin | If we don't use glance/glare, any other options? | 03:35 |
| hongbin | maybe hosting a private docker registry? | 03:35 |
| sudipto | hongbin, i was thinking, if we don't have an in-band (openstack based) support for image repository - that may not help us in long term? (Considering release cycles etc) ? | 03:35 |
| * sudipto might be wrong | 03:35 | |
| flwang | hongbin: though private docker registry works, but i don't think it's a good opion | 03:36 |
| hongbin | sudipto: flwang ack | 03:36 |
| flwang | since it's a container mgmt service based on openstack | 03:36 |
| sudipto | flwang, +2! | 03:36 |
| mkrai | Agree flwang | 03:36 |
| flwang | if we don't use the services of openstack, then we don't have to keep this, right? | 03:36 |
| Wenzhi | Agree flwang | 03:36 |
| hongbin | yes | 03:36 |
| flwang | we can push changes in openstack/glance if we need something which don't exist for now | 03:37 |
| hongbin | For glance, we can use it for docker, but the drawback is it doesn't support layer of images. right? | 03:37 |
| eliqiao | flwang: +1, cool | 03:37 |
| sudipto | hongbin, yeah - very minimal support of the docker images too. | 03:37 |
| flwang | if we can figure out what we need for glance/glare, i can propose a spec and push it | 03:37 |
| sudipto | flwang, +1 | 03:37 |
| sheel | flwang: awesome | 03:37 |
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| hongbin | OK. Short term solution is using Glance for docker | 03:38 |
| hongbin | Long term solution is to contribute to Glance/Glare to get everything we want | 03:38 |
| sudipto | hongbin, ++ | 03:38 |
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| hongbin | Do I summary everything correct? | 03:38 |
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| flwang | hongbin: good for me | 03:38 |
| Wenzhi | +1 | 03:38 |
| flwang | hongbin: would you mind creating a bp for glance integration? | 03:38 |
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| flwang | so that we can use it to track the requirements | 03:39 |
| flwang | for glance/glare | 03:39 |
| hongbin | #action hongbin create a bp for glance integration | 03:39 |
| flwang | and assign it to me | 03:39 |
| hongbin | flwang: ack | 03:39 |
| flwang | hongbin: thanks | 03:39 |
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| hongbin | OK. Sounds we have a good discussion for image management | 03:39 |
| sudipto | flwang, will tag team with you on that one! | 03:39 |
| hongbin | cool | 03:40 |
| hongbin | Next item | 03:40 |
| hongbin | 5. Keystone integration | 03:40 |
| hongbin | This is a must | 03:40 |
| flwang | sudipto: ping me later :) | 03:40 |
| hongbin | I guess everyone will agree on Keystone integration? | 03:41 |
| sheel | +1 | 03:41 |
| mkrai | Yes | 03:41 |
| hongbin | If no, we aren't able to join the big tent | 03:41 |
| Wenzhi | sure thing | 03:41 |
| eliqiao | I got a question, will different tenant's containers run on same Host? | 03:41 |
| hongbin | #agreed Keystone integration is in scope | 03:41 |
| hongbin | eliqiao: Good question | 03:41 |
| eliqiao | as we know, containers have bad isolation. | 03:41 |
| mkrai | Same question eliqiao | 03:42 |
| flwang | eliqiao: i would like to have a param to say if i want a fully isolation | 03:42 |
| flwang | when boot the container | 03:42 |
| mkrai | We need to implement similar concept as "namespaces" in k8s for isolation of containers | 03:42 |
| eliqiao | flwang: then, that tenant will oppuy a whole host | 03:42 |
| flwang | it's a little bit complicated than the VM case | 03:43 |
| flwang | eliqiao: yep, and the user need to pay more ;) | 03:43 |
| mkrai | I don't like the idea of occupying whole host for a tenant | 03:43 |
| flwang | we have billing | 03:43 |
| hongbin | Another option is to use the hypervisor-based container runtime | 03:43 |
| hongbin | Like clear container, hyper | 03:44 |
| Wenzhi | agree mkrai | 03:44 |
| sudipto | we should be careful while choosing the option here - given clear containers/hyper might co-exist for different tenants on the same host. | 03:44 |
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| hongbin | IMO, we have a config for scheduler | 03:45 |
| mkrai | hongbin: That is one container per vm | 03:45 |
| mkrai | sudipto: Agree | 03:45 |
| hongbin | We can let operator to config a scheduling policy | 03:45 |
| hongbin | 1. Tenent per host | 03:46 |
| hongbin | 2. Tenants share host | 03:46 |
| hongbin | Operators should tune the config based on their requirements | 03:46 |
| sudipto | hongbin, that sounds like a good optoion | 03:46 |
| sheel | multiTenant | 03:47 |
| sbalukoff | Just a side note, I work on the Octavia project, and our use case emphasizes small container footprint over separation (since operators ought to be able to create service containers on hosts separate from standard tenants). So thank you for not insisting containers run only within a VM. | 03:47 |
| eliqiao | sbalukoff: haha .. | 03:47 |
| hongbin | sbalukoff: ack | 03:48 |
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| eliqiao | sbalukoff: I was thinking it running containers before.. | 03:48 |
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| hongbin | Any other comment for multi-tenancy? | 03:48 |
| hongbin | 6. TLS support | 03:48 |
| eliqiao | if you want a container, create a vm and that vm is fro that tenant, if vm's full of container, creat another one. | 03:48 |
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| mkrai | eliqiao: no that is not the case with hypercontainers | 03:49 |
| hongbin | mkrai: could you elaborate the TLS support? | 03:49 |
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| mkrai | Yes sure | 03:49 |
| sbalukoff | eliqiao: We specifically want to be able to run the containers on hosts, and not within a VM. | 03:49 |
| mkrai | We would need TLS support for secure communication | 03:50 |
| hongbin | eliqiao: For hyper, containers of different tenants will co-locate | 03:50 |
| eliqiao | sbalukoff: okay | 03:50 |
| mkrai | But now I don't see any use case as we don't have any other services running outside openstack | 03:50 |
| eliqiao | hongbin: yes, I see. hyper and clear conatiner has better isolation. | 03:50 |
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| hongbin | mkrai: Personally, I couldn't find how TLS fit into Zun | 03:51 |
| hongbin | mkrai: as we don't need to secure anything | 03:51 |
| mkrai | As of now, me too | 03:51 |
| mkrai | So we can leave it for now | 03:52 |
| hongbin | OK, then let's skip the TLS for now | 03:52 |
| hongbin | #topic Implement Higgins host agent | 03:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Implement Higgins host agent (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:52 | |
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| hongbin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/325707/ The patch | 03:52 |
| hongbin | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/python-higgins/+spec/higgins-host-agent The BP | 03:52 |
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| mkrai | Is it not good to let conductor do it? | 03:53 |
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| mkrai | What additional will host-agent do? | 03:53 |
| hongbin | if we need that, we need to rename zun-conductor to zun-agent (or something else) | 03:53 |
| hongbin | However, that is an option | 03:54 |
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| mkrai | hongbin: ^^ | 03:54 |
| hongbin | Right now, nova has 1) api 2) conductor 3) compute | 03:54 |
| hongbin | Zun can has #1, #2, #3 | 03:54 |
| hongbin | or Zun has #1 and #3 | 03:54 |
| hongbin | Which option is better? | 03:55 |
| sudipto | conductor is helpful for upgrades too | 03:55 |
| hongbin | sudipto: yes, I agreed, since conductor is the only place to access DB | 03:56 |
| mkrai | It is better to follow nova design | 03:56 |
| sheel | I think its ok to use conductor for local operations than seperate agent.. | 03:56 |
| eliqiao | 1 2 3 | 03:56 |
| Wenzhi | IMO, for better support for scheduler in the future, we should keep #1, #2, #3 | 03:56 |
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| Wenzhi | then we can just borrow the design from nova API->Conductor->Scheduler->Compute | 03:56 |
| hongbin | Wenzhi: ack | 03:57 |
| hongbin | Everyone agree to have #1 #2 #3? | 03:57 |
| hongbin | (might be a scheduler in future) | 03:57 |
| mkrai | hongbin: I would like to work on scheduler part | 03:57 |
| hongbin | mkrai: ack | 03:57 |
| mkrai | So have assigned the bp to me | 03:57 |
| Wenzhi | mkrai: I am willing to help | 03:58 |
| hongbin | #topic Open Discussion | 03:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:58 | |
| mkrai | Thanks Wenzhi | 03:58 |
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| sheel | we have only 2 more minutes.. | 03:58 |
| sheel | do we have any architecture diagram with us for now? | 03:59 |
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| hongbin | good question | 03:59 |
| mkrai | Not yet | 03:59 |
| hongbin | No, so far | 03:59 |
| mkrai | Design is not yet finalized :) | 03:59 |
| hongbin | However, it seems we agreed to borrow Nova architecture | 03:59 |
| sheel | I would need this for API design or I have to create one | 03:59 |
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| sheel | hongbin: right, It seems we can follow Nova.. | 03:59 |
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| hongbin | OK. Time is up | 04:00 |
| mkrai | Thanks everyone | 04:00 |
| hongbin | All, thanks for joining hte meeting | 04:00 |
| hongbin | #endmeeting | 04:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 04:00 | |
| sudipto | Thanks! | 04:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 7 04:00:19 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 04:00 |
| Namrata | thanks | 04:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/higgins/2016/higgins.2016-06-07-03.00.html | 04:00 |
| Wenzhi | thx | 04:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/higgins/2016/higgins.2016-06-07-03.00.txt | 04:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/higgins/2016/higgins.2016-06-07-03.00.log.html | 04:00 |
| sheel | quite good discusion today | 04:00 |
| sheel | thanks everyone | 04:00 |
| eliqiao | +1 for following nova. | 04:00 |
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| loquacities | install guide meeting in 5 mins, everyone | 05:55 |
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| loquacities | #startmeeting docinstallteam | 06:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 7 06:00:44 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is loquacities. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 06:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 06:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'docinstallteam' | 06:00 |
| loquacities | ok, who's here? | 06:00 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 06:00 |
| loquacities | hi lbragstad good to see you :) | 06:01 |
| strigazi | o/ Spyros Trigazis (magnum) | 06:01 |
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| loquacities | hi strigazi | 06:01 |
| lbragstad | loquacities thanks for the reminders :) | 06:01 |
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| loquacities | no trouble, sometimes i remember to send them ;) | 06:01 |
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| loquacities | anyone else? | 06:02 |
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| katomo | |_-) | 06:02 |
| loquacities | hiya katomo | 06:02 |
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| katomo | hello | 06:02 |
| bmoss | hi katomo | 06:03 |
| loquacities | oh hi bmoss :) | 06:03 |
| katomo | hi bmoss | 06:03 |
| bmoss | howdy lo | 06:03 |
| bmoss | howdy loquacities | 06:03 |
| loquacities | ok, let's kick off then | 06:04 |
| loquacities | #topic Action items | 06:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Action items (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:04 | |
| loquacities | #info loquacities to email CPLs about install guide meeting attendance | 06:04 |
| loquacities | #info i have done so, and look! people are here! :D | 06:04 |
| katomo | :) | 06:04 |
| loquacities | #info loquacities to create poll on naming | 06:05 |
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| loquacities | #info i have also done that, and we got 31 responses, and a clear winner :) | 06:05 |
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| loquacities | #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VlNFebI_KFobs-XIT5oRhULRymwrqON8SV9pH4uiYIQ/pubchart?oid=2070399201&format=interactive | 06:06 |
| loquacities | i hope that link works | 06:06 |
| loquacities | we'll come back to that :) | 06:06 |
| katomo | I can see it | 06:06 |
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| loquacities | #topic Infra setip | 06:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Infra setip (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:06 | |
| loquacities | #undo | 06:06 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x7fe23773ae90> | 06:06 |
| loquacities | #topic Infra setup | 06:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Infra setup (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:06 | |
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| loquacities | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/326039/ | 06:07 |
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| loquacities | #info Andreas created this overnight | 06:07 |
| bmoss | awesome! | 06:07 |
| strigazi | So, we add our project here? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/326039/6/jenkins/jobs/projects.yaml | 06:07 |
| katomo | great | 06:07 |
| loquacities | i'm hoping to have some instructions written up soon, but for now i'm still trying to get my head around it ;) | 06:07 |
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| loquacities | strigazi: yes, that's my understanding | 06:07 |
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| strigazi | ok, In out project of course | 06:08 |
| loquacities | strigazi: i also saw your convo with andreas on irc overnight last night (my time), so thanks for all your help on getting this sorted :) | 06:08 |
| strigazi | but in this file | 06:08 |
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| loquacities | yeah, so my understanding so far is: | 06:08 |
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| loquacities | * Project creates $repo/install-guide and puts something in it (based on the cookiecutter) | 06:08 |
| loquacities | * Docs (?) update the install-guide-jobs directive in the projects.yaml file with the name of the service | 06:08 |
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| loquacities | ok, any questions on that? | 06:10 |
| katomo | I'm okay. | 06:10 |
| loquacities | cool | 06:10 |
| loquacities | #topic New title: OpenStack Installation Tutorial | 06:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New title: OpenStack Installation Tutorial (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:10 | |
| loquacities | not much to say there, except we need to go ahead and do it | 06:11 |
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| loquacities | i'm also trying to work out what other content 'glue' we need to get this all published | 06:11 |
| loquacities | #topic reps for moving content | 06:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "reps for moving content (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:12 | |
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| loquacities | #info We have reps for Orchestration (pkovar), Shared File Systems (gouthamr), Object Storage (pkovar), and Telemetry (ildikov) (Thanks!) | 06:12 |
| loquacities | #info Still need a rep for Trove | 06:12 |
| loquacities | #action loquacities to reach out to reps shortly with instructions for moving content | 06:13 |
| loquacities | laurelm is listed as the CPL for trove, so i'll contact her this week to find out who we should be talking to for that content | 06:14 |
| lbragstad | loquacities are those the only projects listed for moving content? or are there others, too? | 06:14 |
| ildikov | o/ | 06:14 |
| * ildikov is sorry for being late, wifi issues | 06:14 | |
| loquacities | they're the ones that need to be moved out of the existing install guide and into their own repos | 06:14 |
| loquacities | the other defcore projects will stay | 06:15 |
| lbragstad | got it | 06:15 |
| loquacities | ildikov: welcome :) | 06:15 |
| katomo | hi, ildikov | 06:15 |
| loquacities | ok, questions on that topic? | 06:15 |
| ildikov | do we have a target finish date? | 06:16 |
| loquacities | ildikov: well, not other than 'before newton' | 06:16 |
| loquacities | but there's going to be a lot of polishing to be done, i imagine, so i want to get the content moved as soon as the infrastructure is ready to go | 06:16 |
| ildikov | loquacities: ok, cool tnx | 06:16 |
| loquacities | ok, moving on | 06:17 |
| loquacities | #topic Work Items | 06:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Work Items (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:17 | |
| loquacities | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/InstallGuideWorkItems | 06:17 |
| loquacities | i think we're in pretty good shape right now | 06:17 |
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| loquacities | once we get the infra up and running and some basic instructions, we can start moving projects from the existing install guide over to their own repos | 06:18 |
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| loquacities | we can also get the name changed, and then start working on any content for the new guide to glue it all together | 06:18 |
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| loquacities | any questions on work items? | 06:18 |
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| strigazi | I'm good | 06:19 |
| loquacities | yay! | 06:19 |
| loquacities | #topic open discussion | 06:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:20 | |
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| strigazi | about debconf | 06:20 |
| loquacities | yep? | 06:20 |
| strigazi | How we should write instructions? I mean, to be manual | 06:20 |
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| loquacities | by 'manual' we really mean 'not using an automated tool' | 06:20 |
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| loquacities | so if it's opening config files and editing them, then it's manual | 06:21 |
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| loquacities | debconf is considered an automated tool, in this sense | 06:21 |
| loquacities | which is why we split it out | 06:21 |
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| katomo | yeah | 06:22 |
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| strigazi | We should pass some parameters to apt-get install to stop debconf of configuring anything? | 06:22 |
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| loquacities | which book are you talking about? the debconf book or the non-debconf book? | 06:23 |
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| strigazi | non-debconf | 06:23 |
| loquacities | well, it shouldn't have debconf at all in it | 06:23 |
| strigazi | I guess we should do DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive apt-get install openstack-<service> right? | 06:24 |
| katomo | by default, on installing packages on debian, debconf configuration screen automatically appears. right? | 06:25 |
| strigazi | by default it does appear | 06:25 |
| katomo | strigazi: I'm not sure, but I think so. | 06:25 |
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| loquacities | that sounds about right to me | 06:26 |
| loquacities | ok, any other items? | 06:26 |
| katomo | I need to talk with debian master :) | 06:26 |
| loquacities | heh, yeah :) | 06:26 |
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| katomo | none from me | 06:26 |
| loquacities | great, thanks katomo | 06:27 |
| loquacities | everyone happy? | 06:27 |
| strigazi | yeap | 06:27 |
| bmoss | yep | 06:27 |
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| lbragstad | i think i'm good - unless there are specific keystone items needed from my end :) | 06:27 |
| ildikov | I'm sleepy, otherwise good :) | 06:27 |
| loquacities | lbragstad: not yet, but very soon! | 06:27 |
| lbragstad | loquacities awesome | 06:27 |
| loquacities | ildikov: time for coffee? ;) | 06:27 |
| ildikov | will come back with items after starting moving the docs :) | 06:27 |
| loquacities | great! | 06:28 |
| ildikov | loquacities: in progress by now :) | 06:28 |
| loquacities | thanks everyone for coming, this will be much easier now we're all talking to each other :) | 06:28 |
| loquacities | ildikov: \o/ | 06:28 |
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| loquacities | #endmeeting | 06:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 06:28 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 7 06:28:27 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 06:28 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docinstallteam/2016/docinstallteam.2016-06-07-06.00.html | 06:28 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docinstallteam/2016/docinstallteam.2016-06-07-06.00.txt | 06:28 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docinstallteam/2016/docinstallteam.2016-06-07-06.00.log.html | 06:28 |
| katomo | thanks, all | 06:28 |
| lbragstad | thanks | 06:28 |
| loquacities | o/ | 06:28 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 06:28 |
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| strigazi | bye | 06:28 |
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| Guest_84757 | Allah is doing | 11:09 |
| Guest_84757 | sun is not doing Allah is doing | 11:09 |
| Guest_84757 | moon is not doing Allah is doing | 11:10 |
| Guest_84757 | stars are not doing Allah is doing | 11:10 |
| Guest_84757 | planets are not doing Allah is doing | 11:10 |
| Guest_84757 | galaxies are not doing Allah is doing | 11:10 |
| Guest_84757 | oceans are not doing Allah is doing | 11:11 |
| Guest_84757 | mountains are not doing Allah is doing | 11:11 |
| Guest_84757 | trees are not doing Allah is doing | 11:11 |
| *** shaohe_feng has joined #openstack-meeting | 11:11 | |
| Guest_84757 | mom is not doing Allah is doing | 11:11 |
| Guest_84757 | dad is not doing Allah is doing | 11:12 |
| Guest_84757 | boss is not doing Allah is doing | 11:12 |
| *** epico has quit IRC | 11:12 | |
| Guest_84757 | job is not doing Allah is doing | 11:12 |
| *** nisha_ is now known as nisha | 11:12 | |
| Guest_84757 | dollar is not doing Allah is doing | 11:12 |
| Guest_84757 | degree is not doing Allah is doing | 11:13 |
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| Guest_84757 | medicine is not doing Allah is doing | 11:13 |
| Guest_84757 | customers are not doing Allah is doing | 11:13 |
| Guest_84757 | you can not get a job without the permission of allah | 11:14 |
| Guest_84757 | you can not get married without the permission of allah | 11:14 |
| Guest_84757 | nobody can get angry at you without the permission of allah | 11:15 |
| Guest_84757 | light is not doing Allah is doing | 11:15 |
| Guest_84757 | fan is not doing Allah is doing | 11:15 |
| Guest_84757 | businessess are not doing Allah is doing | 11:16 |
| Guest_84757 | america is not doing Allah is doing | 11:16 |
| Guest_84757 | fire can not burn without the permission of allah | 11:17 |
| Guest_84757 | knife can not cut without the permission of allah | 11:17 |
| Guest_84757 | rulers are not doing Allah is doing | 11:18 |
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| Guest_84757 | governments are not doing Allah is doing | 11:18 |
| Guest_84757 | sleep is not doing Allah is doing | 11:19 |
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| Guest_84757 | hunger is not doing Allah is doing | 11:20 |
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| Guest_84757 | food does not take away the hunger Allah takes away the hunger | 11:20 |
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| Guest_84757 | water does not take away the thirst Allah takes away the thirst | 11:21 |
| Guest_84757 | seeing is not doing Allah is doing | 11:21 |
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| Guest_84757 | hearing is not doing Allah is doing | 11:22 |
| Guest_84757 | seasons are not doing Allah is doing | 11:22 |
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| Guest_84757 | weather is not doing Allah is doing | 11:23 |
| Guest_84757 | humans are not doing Allah is doing | 11:23 |
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| Guest_84757 | animals are not doing Allah is doing | 11:24 |
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| Guest_84757 | the best amongst you are those who learn and teach quran | 11:24 |
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| Guest_84757 | one letter read from book of Allah amounts to one good deed and Allah multiplies one good deed ten times | 11:25 |
| Guest_84757 | hearts get rusted as does iron with water to remove rust from heart recitation of Quran and rememberance of death | 11:27 |
| Guest_84757 | heart is likened to a mirror | 11:27 |
| Guest_84757 | when a person commits one sin a black dot sustains the heart | 11:28 |
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| Guest_84757 | to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger | 11:30 |
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| Guest_84757 | read book www.fazaileamaal.com | 11:30 |
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| Guest_84757 | read book www.muntakhabahadith.com | 11:31 |
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| Guest_84757 | need spiritual teacher visit www.alhaadi.org.za | 11:32 |
| Guest_84757 | allah created the sky without any pillars | 11:32 |
| Guest_84757 | allah makes the sun rise from the east and Allah sets the sun in the west | 11:33 |
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| Guest_84757 | allah makes the day into the day and allah makes the night into the day | 11:34 |
| Guest_84757 | allah gives life and Allah gives death | 11:34 |
| Guest_84757 | all creation are useless,worthless,hopeless | 11:35 |
| Guest_84757 | can not do | 11:35 |
| Guest_84757 | can not benefit | 11:35 |
| Guest_84757 | can not harm | 11:35 |
| Guest_84757 | allah is the doer of each and everything | 11:36 |
| Guest_84757 | when Allah wants us to stand we stand | 11:37 |
| Guest_84757 | when Allah wants us to sit we sit | 11:37 |
| Guest_84757 | i am not doing Allah is doing | 11:38 |
| Guest_84757 | you are not doing Allah is doing | 11:38 |
| Guest_84757 | atom bomb is not doing Allah is doing | 11:38 |
| Zara | wait what | 11:39 |
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| Guest_84757 | rice is not doing Allah is doing | 11:40 |
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| Guest_84757 | all creation get together can not create one grain of rice | 11:43 |
| Guest_84757 | all humans get together can not stop rain | 11:44 |
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| Guest_84757 | all humans get together can not make anybody hungry | 11:47 |
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| Guest_84757 | all humans get together can not move sun one second up or down | 11:50 |
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| asettle | Zara: spam bot. Happened last week too | 11:51 |
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| Guest_84757 | we can not count the hair on our head | 11:55 |
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| Guest_84757 | we can not count the rain drops | 11:56 |
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| Guest_84757 | we can not count the particles of sand | 11:58 |
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| Guest_84757 | medicine has no power to cure | 11:59 |
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| Guest_84757 | two people take same medicine one passes away and one does not | 12:01 |
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| Guest_84757 | degree has no power to give job | 12:03 |
| Zara | asettle: sometimes I like to imagine spambots are real people, painstakingly typing out the same list of things :D | 12:04 |
| asettle | Zara: HAHAHA you and me both. | 12:04 |
| asettle | I get a real kick out of this one. | 12:04 |
| asettle | "We can not count the particles of sand" | 12:04 |
| asettle | Just, inspiring. | 12:04 |
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| Zara | I've never seen it get this far before. I also like how long it takes this one to paste the spam links. | 12:05 |
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| Zara | normally they only do that bit... | 12:05 |
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| asettle | It's trying something different? New? Exciting? :p | 12:09 |
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| Guest_84757 | many people have degrees but do not have jobs | 12:13 |
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| Guest_84757 | sustenance does not depend on effort | 12:19 |
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| Guest_84757 | one person is working very much but is earning very less | 12:20 |
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| Guest_84757 | other person is working very less but is earning very much | 12:21 |
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| Zara | haha, the spambot left of its own accord | 12:38 |
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| asettle | Zara that's kinda sad :p | 12:53 |
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| Zara | yeah, maybe it got paid less than another spambot and just came in here to rant about it | 12:54 |
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| Qiming | #startmeeting senlin | 13:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 7 13:00:10 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'senlin' | 13:00 |
| Qiming | #topic roll call | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:00 | |
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| yanyanhu | hello | 13:00 |
| Qiming | hi | 13:00 |
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| xuhaiwei__ | hi | 13:01 |
| Qiming | hi, haiwei | 13:01 |
| lixinhui_ | hi | 13:01 |
| yanyanhu | network connection at home is really unstable | 13:01 |
| elynn | o/ | 13:01 |
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| Qiming | #topic newton work items | 13:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "newton work items (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:01 | |
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| Qiming | testing, where are we ? | 13:01 |
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| elynn | enable tempest api on gate | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | 50% I think | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | about negative test cases | 13:02 |
| elynn | Saw some patches submitted by yanyanhu, many thanks! | 13:02 |
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| Qiming | okay, so we did find some inconsistencies in apis | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | elynn, my pleasure :) | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | also found some issues about our API implementation when writing the test | 13:02 |
| Qiming | elynn, posted some comments to you latest patches | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | that is valuable | 13:03 |
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| elynn | Qiming: will check :) | 13:03 |
| Qiming | tempest dsvm gate is not very slow, right? | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:03 |
| Qiming | great | 13:04 |
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| Qiming | rally side | 13:04 |
| Qiming | patch 318453 was in | 13:04 |
| yanyanhu | gate job is finally ready | 13:04 |
| Qiming | you mean gate job at senlin side? | 13:05 |
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| yanyanhu | and the 301522 works well now | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | both side | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | in rally and senlin | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | just need to address rally teams question about that patch | 13:05 |
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| yanyanhu | but no critical obstacle I think | 13:05 |
| Qiming | we don't rely on 301522 to run gate at senlin side, right? | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | that is for rally repo | 13:06 |
| Qiming | my question is about the gate failures we saw when doing 'check experimental' at senlin side | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | actually 307170 works as well | 13:06 |
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| yanyanhu | you mean this one? https://review.openstack.org/307170 | 13:07 |
| Qiming | oh? | 13:07 |
| Qiming | that is the first time we have gate-rally-dsvm-senlin-senlin working!! | 13:07 |
| yanyanhu | sorry, I was dropped | 13:08 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes :) | 13:08 |
| elynn | This name is a little weird... | 13:08 |
| yanyanhu | elynn, yes if you mean senlin-senlin.yaml :) | 13:08 |
| Qiming | yes, let's get it in and fix it later? | 13:08 |
| yanyanhu | that is because we try to match gate-dsvm-rally-senlin-{name} job template | 13:08 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, ok, I think I may need to do some clean job before that patch become ready | 13:09 |
| Qiming | okay | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | will remove[WIP] when it's ok | 13:09 |
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| elynn | double senlin, now we have amazon :P | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | :P | 13:10 |
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| yanyanhu | and will discuss with eldon about their test based on rally | 13:10 |
| Qiming | better rename that... it is strange, indeed | 13:10 |
| yanyanhu | hope can provide some help for them | 13:10 |
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| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes, I think maybe we can propose another job template in future | 13:11 |
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| Qiming | sure, we can work together on stress tests | 13:12 |
| elynn | Anyway, now we have many eyes on gates :) | 13:12 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:12 |
| Qiming | moving on | 13:12 |
| Qiming | health management | 13:12 |
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| Qiming | I saw xinhui has taken over that lbaas bug | 13:13 |
| Qiming | patch proposed now | 13:13 |
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| yanyanhu | cool | 13:13 |
| lixinhui_ | yes | 13:13 |
| lixinhui_ | I am doing that | 13:13 |
| Qiming | many thanks | 13:13 |
| lixinhui_ | my pleasure | 13:14 |
| lixinhui_ | will contribute more in next weeks | 13:14 |
| Qiming | there are still some gate failures | 13:14 |
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| lixinhui_ | en | 13:14 |
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| Qiming | I have added health monitoring by listening to vm lifecycle events | 13:15 |
| Qiming | it took me quite some time to understand the filtering logics | 13:15 |
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| lixinhui_ | congrats! | 13:15 |
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| lixinhui_ | you got it | 13:15 |
| Qiming | there are still things unstable inside oslo.messaging, complaining that some regex matching failures | 13:15 |
| lixinhui_ | will learn from you | 13:15 |
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| Qiming | anyway, we can get notified when vm status was modified (reboot, start, stop, ...) | 13:16 |
| Qiming | next thing is to trigger some actions | 13:16 |
| lixinhui_ | is that reliable? | 13:16 |
| Qiming | will dive into that | 13:16 |
| lixinhui_ | I mean the lisetning | 13:16 |
| Qiming | listening is reliable, just some initialization wasn't complete I guess | 13:17 |
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| lixinhui_ | ... | 13:17 |
| Qiming | when I restart the engine, the listeners are created, but not receiving events | 13:17 |
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| Qiming | maybe need to do some fuzzy delay | 13:17 |
| lixinhui_ | ok | 13:18 |
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| Qiming | as for health threshold | 13:19 |
| Qiming | I'm thinking of using desired_capacity | 13:19 |
| lixinhui_ | could you explain more? | 13:19 |
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| lixinhui_ | if time permits | 13:20 |
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| Qiming | make desired_capacity the health threshold | 13:20 |
| Qiming | a cluster is treated healthy if the number of active nodes >= desired_capacity | 13:21 |
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| Qiming | make sense? | 13:22 |
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| lixinhui_ | okay | 13:22 |
| lixinhui_ | too hash? | 13:22 |
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| yanyanhu | Qiming, if so, the node number could beyond desired_capacity? | 13:22 |
| Qiming | yes, between max_size and desired_capacity | 13:22 |
| xuhaiwei__ | what is the case node number bigger than desired_capacity? | 13:23 |
| yanyanhu | hmm, sounds a little different from our discussion in summit | 13:23 |
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| Qiming | when you do cluster check, there are some nodes not responding | 13:24 |
| Qiming | when you do some operations later, those nodes come back to life | 13:24 |
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| Qiming | did we have any discussion about the health threshold during summit? | 13:25 |
| xuhaiwei__ | so the desired_capacity only contains the alive nodes? | 13:25 |
| yanyanhu | yes, so will the total number of health node finally match the desired_capacity | 13:25 |
| Qiming | desired is always the 'desired' | 13:25 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, no, it's not about health threshold | 13:25 |
| yanyanhu | about the scaling basement | 13:25 |
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| Qiming | it is not the number of actually active nodes, we can never assume so | 13:26 |
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| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes, that's what I mean. I think the case that total number of node beyond desired_capacity is kind of transient status? | 13:26 |
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| Qiming | if you don't do something, those nodes will be there | 13:27 |
| yanyanhu | finally, health nodes amount will be desired_capacity | 13:27 |
| Qiming | there are transient status some nodes are not active when you are checking them | 13:27 |
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| Qiming | the question is why are we maintaining the number of healthy nodes? | 13:28 |
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| Qiming | we are already not so sure about the number of active nodes, considering that there are transient problems | 13:28 |
| Qiming | what we do care is "whether the cluster is healthy" | 13:29 |
| Qiming | which means there are enough nodes to share workloads | 13:29 |
| Qiming | by "enough" here, we mean that number of active nodes >= desired capacity | 13:29 |
| Qiming | yes, it is a bit hash | 13:30 |
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| yanyanhu | yes. I think user specifies the desired_capacity which is the number of health nodes they want to have, so we should try to match it and the actual active nodes number? | 13:30 |
| Qiming | but is there any way to maintain another statistics? | 13:30 |
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| Qiming | assume you are the user, when you are specifying desired_capacity, what are you thinking? | 13:31 |
| yanyanhu | hmm, I want a cluster with this number of nodes being active | 13:31 |
| yanyanhu | healthy | 13:31 |
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| Qiming | there could be a case where a user wants to create a cluster of 10 nodes, but 5 nodes is okay for him/her | 13:32 |
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| yanyanhu | yes, that is possible | 13:32 |
| Qiming | why is he doing that? | 13:32 |
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| Qiming | if 5 is okay, then 5 is the min_size, right? | 13:33 |
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| yanyanhu | hmm, I think that means in any cases, the cluster size should not be less than 5 | 13:34 |
| Qiming | yes, then 5 is actually the min_size | 13:34 |
| yanyanhu | that is not directly related to health management | 13:34 |
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| yanyanhu | yes, 5 is the min_size | 13:34 |
| Qiming | if the cluster is dropping below that level, the cluster is in error status | 13:34 |
| yanyanhu | I think that's two cases | 13:35 |
| Qiming | if cluster size is between min_size and desired_capacity, we can treat it as warning | 13:35 |
| yanyanhu | if cluster size is less than 5, that means internal error happened in senlin side | 13:35 |
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| Qiming | it is all about how we define the status of a cluster | 13:35 |
| Qiming | users don't care what happened | 13:35 |
| yanyanhu | yes, understand what you mean, just feel we shouldn't mix health management case and scaling case | 13:35 |
| Qiming | maybe some nova nodes crashed | 13:36 |
| Qiming | you cannot say it is senlin's fault | 13:36 |
| yanyanhu | IMHO, min_size/max_size/desired is about scaling cases | 13:36 |
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| Qiming | they are properties you specify when you create a cluster | 13:36 |
| Qiming | no matter you will scale that cluster or not | 13:36 |
| yanyanhu | yes, that's the hard limit of cluster size | 13:37 |
| yanyanhu | no matter the cluster has HA management support or not | 13:37 |
| Qiming | exactly | 13:37 |
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| Qiming | so ... I'm wondering if we do want to introduce another threshold into senlin at the moment | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | so I think desired_capacity is something related to HA since it's user desired | 13:38 |
| Qiming | and we can never make sure it matches the reality | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, I agree we consider desired_capacity a health related property | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | but min_size, max_size could not be | 13:38 |
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| Qiming | okay, agree to disagree | 13:39 |
| Qiming | let's think about it offline | 13:39 |
| yanyanhu | ok | 13:39 |
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| yanyanhu | we can have a further discussion tomorrow :) | 13:39 |
| Qiming | I'd suggest we forget all the actions/policies we have in senlin | 13:39 |
| yanyanhu | really need more thinking about it | 13:39 |
| Qiming | just think from a user's perspective, what makes a better sense for them | 13:40 |
| yanyanhu | agree with this | 13:40 |
| lixinhui_ | jealous | 13:40 |
| yanyanhu | a clear definition from user perspective is the most important | 13:40 |
| lixinhui_ | you can discuss face to face | 13:40 |
| Qiming | we will discuss on irc | 13:41 |
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| lixinhui_ | :) | 13:41 |
| yanyanhu | lixinhui_, you can come here, some one will buy you coffee :P | 13:41 |
| lixinhui_ | cool! | 13:41 |
| lixinhui_ | or you can come to VMware | 13:41 |
| lixinhui_ | tomorrow we have happy hour | 13:41 |
| yanyanhu | for free coffee :) | 13:41 |
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| lixinhui_ | :P | 13:41 |
| Qiming | we can define min_size, health_watermark, desired_capacity and max_size | 13:42 |
| Qiming | try if you can explain all these four numbers to users | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | hmm, need more thinking on it | 13:42 |
| Qiming | okay, let's move on | 13:42 |
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| Qiming | any news from you lixinhui_ on health management? | 13:43 |
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| lixinhui_ | Sorry, Qiming | 13:43 |
| lixinhui_ | I will try to contribute more in the followed weeks | 13:43 |
| yanyanhu | last sentence from me about this issue: maybe we should re consider why user define min_size/max_size and whether and when they really need it :) | 13:43 |
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| lixinhui_ | too distract | 13:43 |
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| Qiming | no worry, just ask questions, in case you have moving too fast | 13:43 |
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| lixinhui_ | :) | 13:44 |
| Qiming | no update on documentation from me | 13:44 |
| Qiming | container support | 13:44 |
| xuhaiwei__ | I submitted a patch | 13:44 |
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| xuhaiwei__ | initialize docker driver | 13:45 |
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| Qiming | saw some patches from haiwei, I think we have been mixing things in a strange way | 13:45 |
| Qiming | will have a closer look at the patch | 13:46 |
| xuhaiwei__ | yes, please comment it | 13:46 |
| Qiming | notification/event side, some basics are there | 13:46 |
| Qiming | need some serializers and an example to encapsulate a notification into an object | 13:47 |
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| Qiming | then dispatch that object to oslo.messaging or db | 13:47 |
| Qiming | will continue work on that | 13:47 |
| Qiming | zaqar work is stalled | 13:47 |
| Qiming | that's all from the etherpad | 13:48 |
| Qiming | things to add? | 13:48 |
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| yanyanhu | nope, really lots of work items | 13:48 |
| Qiming | #topic senlin cluster-do operation | 13:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "senlin cluster-do operation (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:49 | |
| Qiming | here is the patch: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/326208/ | 13:49 |
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| Qiming | we are adding OPERATIONS to a profile definition | 13:49 |
| Qiming | it is not exposed to users for customization | 13:49 |
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| Qiming | but implementation wise, we are modeling operation parameters using schemas | 13:50 |
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| yanyanhu | oh, its for this purpose | 13:50 |
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| yanyanhu | I didn't get it when saw it first time | 13:50 |
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| Qiming | so an operation can be easily verified when we get a JSON containing the operation requested | 13:51 |
| yanyanhu | will check it | 13:51 |
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| yanyanhu | yep | 13:51 |
| yanyanhu | that's a nice wrap | 13:51 |
| Qiming | an operation request could be {"reboot": {"type": "HARD"}} | 13:51 |
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| Qiming | when users input senlin cluster-do help cluster1 | 13:51 |
| Qiming | we can iterate through the OPERATIONS dict and return a help text --- here are operations you can try | 13:52 |
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| Qiming | just like when you do senlin profile-type-show <a-profile-type> | 13:52 |
| yanyanhu | nice | 13:52 |
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| Qiming | in the case of a nova server cluster, you can do 'senlin cluster-do reboot --type=HARD cluster1' | 13:53 |
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| Qiming | command wise, we can add more parameters so that users can reboot nodes with specific roles, but those can be added later | 13:53 |
| Qiming | parameters are checked just like profile/policy properties, they have data types | 13:54 |
| lixinhui_ | :) | 13:54 |
| Qiming | the only difference is that they are not 'updatable' | 13:54 |
| Qiming | that is why I revised the common schema module | 13:54 |
| yanyanhu | yes, saw that patch | 13:55 |
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| Qiming | in future there could be some extensions to Operation schema, today it is only just a Map | 13:55 |
| Qiming | that's some background about that patch | 13:55 |
| Qiming | #topic open discussions | 13:55 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:55 | |
| Qiming | I think we have covered the health management part | 13:55 |
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| lixinhui_ | yes | 13:56 |
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| Qiming | and ... 1 hour is definitely not enough for discussion | 13:56 |
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| lixinhui_ | nod | 13:56 |
| yanyanhu | yes :) | 13:56 |
| Qiming | need some homework before we discuss it again | 13:56 |
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| Qiming | pls think from user's perspective | 13:56 |
| Qiming | :) | 13:56 |
| yanyanhu | will think about it as well | 13:57 |
| lixinhui_ | :) | 13:57 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:57 |
| xuhaiwei__ | ok | 13:57 |
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| Qiming | oh, don't know if you have noticed it | 13:58 |
| Qiming | we have had senlin 2.0.0.0b1 released last Friday | 13:58 |
| Qiming | senlinclient 0.5.0 released today | 13:58 |
| xuhaiwei__ | saw it | 13:59 |
| Qiming | senlinclient version jump was based on release team's suggesion | 13:59 |
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| Qiming | leave some version numbers for back-port | 13:59 |
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| Qiming | em. | 13:59 |
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| yanyanhu | in global requirement? | 13:59 |
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| Qiming | not yet propsed to global requirements | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | I see | 13:59 |
| Qiming | feel free to do so | 13:59 |
| Qiming | #endmeeting | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 7 14:00:03 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-06-07-13.00.html | 14:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-06-07-13.00.txt | 14:00 |
| Qiming | thanks for joining | 14:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-06-07-13.00.log.html | 14:00 |
| ihrachys | #startmeeting networking | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 7 14:00:45 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ihrachys. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking' | 14:00 |
| mestery | o/ | 14:00 |
| njohnston | o/ | 14:00 |
| dasm | o/ | 14:00 |
| hichihara | hi | 14:00 |
| manjeets | hi | 14:00 |
| boden | o/ howdy | 14:01 |
| andreas_s | o/ | 14:01 |
| hoangcx | hi | 14:01 |
| HenryG | o/ | 14:01 |
| blogan | hi | 14:01 |
| bcafarel | o/ hi | 14:01 |
| haleyb | hi | 14:01 |
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| john-davidge | o/ | 14:01 |
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| johndperkins | hi | 14:01 |
| ajo_ | o/ | 14:01 |
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| ihrachys | wow, seems like people long for meetings | 14:01 |
| jschwarz | o/ | 14:01 |
| amotoki__ | hi | 14:01 |
| psargent | hi | 14:01 |
| ihrachys | happy to see all of you :) | 14:01 |
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| ankur-gupta-f1 | \o/ | 14:01 |
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| jlibosva | hi | 14:01 |
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| amuller | hiho | 14:01 |
| korzen | hello | 14:01 |
| njohnston | You sraw the crowds, ihrachys. | 14:01 |
| njohnston | s/sraw/draw/ | 14:02 |
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| ajo_ | :D | 14:02 |
| * ihrachys digs himself from under all those greetings | 14:02 | |
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| ihrachys | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings Agenda | 14:02 |
| ihrachys | #topic Announcements | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:02 | |
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| ihrachys | first thing first. We released Newton-1 yay! | 14:03 |
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| dasm | \o/ | 14:03 |
| ihrachys | deliverables can be found at: http://releases.openstack.org/newton/ | 14:03 |
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| ihrachys | afaik nothing really fancy included there, but I guess it's business as usual | 14:03 |
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| ihrachys | also, in case you haven't noticed, our PTL is on vacation | 14:04 |
| ihrachys | it doesn't stop him to stay online though :) | 14:04 |
| mestery | He's omniscient ihrachys :) | 14:04 |
| ihrachys | finally, thanks to HenryG we have a midcycle meetup in August! | 14:05 |
| ihrachys | WARNING: original dates of the event changed | 14:05 |
| ihrachys | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/096255.html | 14:05 |
| ihrachys | please make sure you don't book wrong dates! | 14:05 |
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| ihrachys | and I hope new dates are better for Europeans | 14:05 |
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| twm2016 | o/ | 14:06 |
| ajo_ | HenryG++ | 14:06 |
| ihrachys | #topic Ongoing discussions | 14:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Ongoing discussions (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:06 | |
| ihrachys | our glorious PTL had an attempt to change release model for *aas deliverables | 14:07 |
| ihrachys | but the attempt failed due to being late in the cycle, and no agreement | 14:07 |
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| ihrachys | still, Armando strives to revisit the governance structure for neutron deliverables a bit | 14:07 |
| ihrachys | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/323522/ | 14:07 |
| ihrachys | please comment, and bring your brushes | 14:08 |
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| ihrachys | also, I wonder whether amuller got the help he asked for at: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/094997.html | 14:08 |
| ihrachys | amuller: ? | 14:08 |
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| amuller | ihrachys: We didn't progress as much as I wanted to | 14:09 |
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| ihrachys | ok folks, something to consider ^ we can't leave our test lieutenant without soldiers :) | 14:09 |
| amuller | I don't like those terms =p | 14:09 |
| ihrachys | :) moving on... | 14:10 |
| ihrachys | #topic Bugs | 14:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:10 | |
| ihrachys | hichihara is the deputy of the previous week, and ajo_ is this wek | 14:10 |
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| ihrachys | hichihara: would you mind giving a brief update of the prev week? | 14:10 |
| hichihara | No. Previous week is Carl or ajo? | 14:11 |
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| ihrachys | oh. it's actually kevinbenton I think | 14:11 |
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| ihrachys | as per wiki page at least | 14:11 |
| carl_baldwin | Right, I was the week before. | 14:11 |
| kevinbenton | ihrachys: so if i was supposed to be last week i messed up the week | 14:12 |
| kevinbenton | ihrachys: and i have a backlog to go through :) | 14:12 |
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| ihrachys | the wiki page is confusing | 14:12 |
| ajo_ | I also messed up, and I thought mine was next week somehow.. so I have 1 day back log at least (monday), and taking up now | 14:12 |
| ajo_ | yes | 14:12 |
| ihrachys | it states kevinbenton to be the deputy | 14:12 |
| ihrachys | carl_baldwin: so you run the prev week? anything worthy? | 14:12 |
| ajo_ | that wiki page deserves a refactor (may be just two columns: date range, and who) ? | 14:12 |
| carl_baldwin | ihrachys: Mostly routine triaging. | 14:12 |
| ihrachys | kevinbenton: nah, that's ok, it seems wiki is wrong. | 14:12 |
| carl_baldwin | Saw one gate failure that was resolved by kevinbenton I think. | 14:13 |
| ihrachys | ajo_: make sure we don't have bugs missed without attention from either of you | 14:13 |
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| carl_baldwin | ajo_: +1 to wiki refactor. | 14:13 |
| ajo_ | ihrachys, ack, we're syncing in private to catch up all of them | 14:13 |
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| ihrachys | #action ajo_ to refactor wiki bug deputy section | 14:13 |
| ajo_ | carl_baldwin, ack, handling it as we talk | 14:13 |
| reedip | ajo_ +1 | 14:14 |
| rossella_s | ajo_, thanks! I was having troubles with that too | 14:14 |
| hichihara | ajo_: +1 | 14:14 |
| amotoki__ | for bug deputy etherpad might work | 14:14 |
| carl_baldwin | Reduce it from O(nm) to O(n) | 14:14 |
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| ihrachys | ok thanks folks for doing the triaging | 14:14 |
| ajo_ | who wants to be next, please tell me, I'll add as part of the refactor | 14:14 |
| ihrachys | right, we need next volunteers. | 14:14 |
| ihrachys | preferrably two next weeks | 14:14 |
| ihrachys | June 13-.. and June 20-.. | 14:15 |
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| HenryG | I can do June 13 | 14:15 |
| ihrachys | thanks HenryG! you already did it twice, it would be great to see someone with just one week served to chime in for June 20..- | 14:16 |
| rossella_s | I can take June 27...June 20 doesn't work for me, there's the opnfv summit | 14:16 |
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| ihrachys | rossella_s: sold! :) | 14:16 |
| ajo_ | ack, I'll ad you both, we need to cover June 20- if somebody could | 14:17 |
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| ajo_ | btw, I will remove dates from old history, just the ocurrences of people in a nick list with no dates just for reference (to avoid history growing too tall) | 14:18 |
| ihrachys | ajo_: ack | 14:18 |
| ihrachys | no volunteers? mestery: dasm: ? :) | 14:18 |
| rossella_s | ajo_, I like optimization | 14:18 |
| ajo_ | :D | 14:18 |
| ihrachys | haleyb: blogan ? | 14:18 |
| * ihrachys calls out people with one week served :) | 14:18 | |
| * ihrachys naively assumes the wiki is correct | 14:19 | |
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| ihrachys | jlibosva: ? | 14:19 |
| rossella_s | not only cores, everyone can volunteer! it's a good way to learn | 14:19 |
| * haleyb had tuned-out | 14:19 | |
| dasm | ihrachys: 13.07 can be for me | 14:19 |
| john-davidge | I can do it, but it will be my first time :) | 14:19 |
| dasm | ajo_: 13.07 | 14:19 |
| ihrachys | john-davidge: that's ok, it's expected | 14:19 |
| * blogan reads scrollback | 14:19 | |
| ihrachys | dasm: if HenryG gives it to you, I am ok | 14:19 |
| haleyb | ihrachys: yes, i'm due for another | 14:20 |
| john-davidge | ihrachys: Then I volunteer for the 20th | 14:20 |
| HenryG | dasm: it's all yours | 14:20 |
| HenryG | dasm: thanks | 14:20 |
| ihrachys | ok, so, June 13 is HenryG/dasm, June 20 is john-davidge and June 27 is rossella_s | 14:20 |
| dasm | HenryG: ++ | 14:20 |
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| ihrachys | ok, so we mentioned gate failures before... | 14:20 |
| blogan | put me down for the next one, but obviously thats too far away to put me down for | 14:20 |
| ihrachys | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bugs?field.tag=gate-failure | 14:21 |
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| ihrachys | doesn't seem like anything critical is in the list right now, which is good | 14:21 |
| ihrachys | grafana also seems calm now | 14:21 |
| ihrachys | #link http://grafana.openstack.org/dashboard/db/neutron-failure-rate | 14:21 |
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| ihrachys | we had a gate failure for -api job yesterday due to fwaas tempest plugin being broken | 14:22 |
| ihrachys | but the immediate fix landed into neutron-fwaas today | 14:22 |
| ihrachys | so it's safe to recheck | 14:22 |
| HenryG | Is the functional job timeout still happening sometimes? jlibosva? | 14:22 |
| ajo_ | ack | 14:22 |
| amuller | also due to devstack installing fwaas it broke the main neutron api job | 14:22 |
| dasm | HenryG: it seems so. i've seen timeouts couple of times | 14:22 |
| ihrachys | that said, we should really decouple -api job from fwaas, which is the goal of sc68cal's set of kill patches: | 14:22 |
| ihrachys | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:kill-off-fwaas-seriously | 14:22 |
| ihrachys | so folks please review ^ | 14:23 |
| jlibosva | I thought it doesn't, I'll sync with dasm | 14:23 |
| amotoki__ | api job failure lao broke ceilometer gate. | 14:23 |
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| dasm | jlibosva: ok. | 14:23 |
| ihrachys | amotoki__: they install fwaas too right? | 14:23 |
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| amotoki__ | looks so. | 14:23 |
| ihrachys | they probably do, due to devstack-gate | 14:23 |
| ihrachys | so, we should boost those patches of Sean. | 14:24 |
| ihrachys | but for now, ceilometer can also recheck | 14:24 |
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| ihrachys | ok, I guess we will skip going thru newton-2 blueprints today. just a note to neutron drivers and cores and others: please make sure that neutron-specs patches get enough attention so that feature progress is not blocked due to specs. | 14:25 |
| ihrachys | #topic Docs | 14:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Docs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:25 | |
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| * ihrachys haven't seen Sam-I-Am for a while | 14:26 | |
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| ihrachys | anyone to give an update on neutron docs? | 14:26 |
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| amotoki__ | recently some contents about dhcp has been moved from user guide. | 14:27 |
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| ihrachys | amotoki__: is it good? bad? | 14:27 |
| amotoki__ | also nwguide meeting faces low number of attendees | 14:27 |
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| amotoki__ | that,s what i heard. | 14:27 |
| ihrachys | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Networking_Guide_Team_Meeting | 14:28 |
| ihrachys | that's the meeting event ^ | 14:28 |
| ihrachys | amotoki__: thanks for the info | 14:28 |
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| amotoki__ | difficult to type on smartphone :( | 14:28 |
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| ihrachys | #topic Transition to OSC | 14:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Transition to OSC (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:29 | |
| ihrachys | dasm: wanna update the team? | 14:29 |
| ajo_ | off band link: let me know if I broke something: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings#Bug_deputy :-) | 14:29 |
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| dasm | ihrachys: probably amotoki__ knows better. | 14:29 |
| rtheis | I've updated https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/osc-neutron-support with current status for OSC 2.5.0 release | 14:29 |
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| rtheis | OSC plugin patch set progress is slow | 14:30 |
| amotoki__ | osc plugin patch got stalled. i talked with rtheis and I decided to take it. | 14:30 |
| rtheis | thanks amotoki__ ! | 14:30 |
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| hichihara | ajo_: Good! | 14:30 |
| ajo_ | thanks amotoki__ | 14:30 |
| ihrachys | rtheis: what's the strategy for new features? | 14:31 |
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| rtheis | ihrachys: we are following strategy in devref: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/python-neutronclient/devref/transition_to_osc.html | 14:31 |
| rtheis | core resources go into OSC | 14:31 |
| amotoki__ | one difficult point is where we should implement a patch. in general osc is the first priority. | 14:32 |
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| rtheis | *aaS and related go as OSC plugins within neutronclient | 14:32 |
| ihrachys | right. do we prioritize osc or neutronclient, and whether we should require new features to support OSC? | 14:32 |
| manjeets | rtheis: i guess etherpad can be update ip availability is done | 14:32 |
| manjeets | or is it updated after release ? | 14:32 |
| ajo_ | njohnston, do you remember if we have qos support in OSC ? we may want to add it otherwise | 14:33 |
| rtheis | manjeets: I've been updated after release, 2.6.0 is coming soon | 14:33 |
| hichihara | I thought new feature must go to OSC. | 14:33 |
| njohnston | ajo_: I believe it is in the list of things that still need to be done. | 14:33 |
| dasm | hichihara: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/python-neutronclient/devref/transition_to_osc.html#developer-guide | 14:33 |
| amotoki__ | neutronclient is optional | 14:33 |
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| ajo_ | njohnston, let's track it as a qos bug to make sure we don't forget or that we get help | 14:33 |
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| hichihara | dasm: Thanks | 14:34 |
| rtheis | no qos commands in OSC yet | 14:34 |
| rtheis | for network that is, there is volume qos support | 14:34 |
| ihrachys | interesting. I think we have specs in progress that talk about neutron CLI but not opentack. Maybe worth going thru them and -1? And maybe new spec template should state it more explicitly it's now a requirements... | 14:34 |
| njohnston | ajo_: agreed | 14:34 |
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| ajo_ | ihrachys: +1 | 14:34 |
| dasm | ihrachys: makes sense. | 14:35 |
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| ihrachys | #action ihrachys to -1 all specs that don't cover OSC | 14:35 |
| hichihara | ihrachys: +1 | 14:35 |
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| amotoki__ | ihrachys, +1 | 14:35 |
| ihrachys | #action ihrachys to update neutron-specs template to be explicit about OSC requirement | 14:35 |
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| manjeets | ihrachys: +1 | 14:36 |
| ihrachys | ok, I guess apart from that, it's a matter of coding and reviews that are always in shortage | 14:36 |
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| ihrachys | thanks amotoki__ for driving it! | 14:36 |
| ihrachys | #topic Moving to Keystone v3 API in Neutron | 14:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Moving to Keystone v3 API in Neutron (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:36 | |
| ihrachys | dasm: I guess that one is yours | 14:36 |
| dasm | ihrachys: indeed. | 14:36 |
| dasm | cli part is merged and i believe got to n1 | 14:36 |
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| dasm | currently there are leftovers with keystoneclient: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/322268/ | 14:37 |
| ihrachys | dasm: neutronclient is not part of milestones | 14:37 |
| dasm | ihrachys: ack | 14:37 |
| ihrachys | dasm: but we may want to release client anyway. maybe let's sync on it after the meeting. | 14:37 |
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| dasm | ihrachys: ++ | 14:37 |
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| dasm | next step is to update docs: especially developers | 14:38 |
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| dasm | and two more "huge" parts left: db and codebase. | 14:38 |
| dasm | i'll try to finish changes for docs till end of week | 14:38 |
| dasm | and next one will focus on db. | 14:38 |
| dasm | that's all | 14:38 |
| amotoki__ | do we need more volunteers? | 14:39 |
| ihrachys | dasm: re patch for keystoneauth1 switch: how can we validate it does not break anything? we don't have coverage for designate, right? | 14:39 |
| dasm | would be nice to have couple more eyes on it. esp in db. | 14:39 |
| dasm | ihrachys: we do not have. | 14:39 |
| dasm | ihrachys: i did the change based on keystone description, but there still could be a problem | 14:40 |
| ihrachys | dasm: is it covered in designate gate at least? | 14:40 |
| dasm | i'll check it again | 14:40 |
| dasm | and will talk to designate folks. | 14:41 |
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| ihrachys | let's make sure we don't break anything for a cleanup. I hope they have some scenarios for neutron. | 14:42 |
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| twm2016 | dasm: Are you talking about the keystone-v3 bp, that needs more help? For updating docs, and work in db and codebase. | 14:42 |
| dasm | twm2016: yes. | 14:42 |
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| twm2016 | - just clarifying, I'm going to look into it and see if i can help :) | 14:43 |
| dasm | twm2016: ++ | 14:43 |
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| ihrachys | ok cool | 14:44 |
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| ihrachys | let's make it happen | 14:44 |
| ihrachys | and finally... | 14:44 |
| ihrachys | #topic On Demand Agenda | 14:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "On Demand Agenda (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:44 | |
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| ihrachys | the agenda is empty | 14:44 |
| ihrachys | but I wanted to raise one thing | 14:44 |
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| ihrachys | upgrades team works on converting db code to using objects. | 14:45 |
| ihrachys | and sometimes we lack core reviewers. | 14:45 |
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| ihrachys | we think that maybe it's due to low exposure of the work to the whole team | 14:45 |
| ihrachys | so we started to produce bi-weekly status updates with links to interesting patches | 14:46 |
| ihrachys | first one is: | 14:46 |
| ihrachys | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-June/096512.html | 14:46 |
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| ihrachys | thanks to korzen for preparing it | 14:46 |
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| korzen | ihrachys, np | 14:46 |
| amotoki__ | nice idea | 14:46 |
| ihrachys | would love to see people read and click thru some links there to make yourself more aware about that process. | 14:46 |
| ajo_ | thanks, that's very helpful | 14:46 |
| blogan | +1 | 14:47 |
| ihrachys | ok, that's all I have. anything else? | 14:47 |
| carl_baldwin | ihrachys: That will be helpful. I'll try to review more there. | 14:47 |
| amotoki__ | for more background of the work, the summit video will help you much | 14:47 |
| ihrachys | carl_baldwin: thanks! some of that stuff is WIP, but I think we finally got to the point where we can land more invasive patches. | 14:48 |
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| ihrachys | I guess amotoki__ refers to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQLBw1_VGcU | 14:48 |
| amotoki__ | yeah | 14:48 |
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| ihrachys | ok, I guess no more topics and we can enjoy 10 mins till a next meeting :) | 14:49 |
| ihrachys | thanks everyone, really glad to see all of you at that early time of day (for some) :) | 14:49 |
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| ihrachys | #endmeeting | 14:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:49 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 7 14:49:23 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:49 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-06-07-14.00.html | 14:49 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-06-07-14.00.txt | 14:49 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-06-07-14.00.log.html | 14:49 |
| dasm | o/ | 14:49 |
| hichihara | bye | 14:49 |
| andreas_s | bye | 14:49 |
| jlibosva | \o | 14:49 |
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| manjeets | \o/ | 14:49 |
| amotoki__ | thanks | 14:50 |
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| carl_baldwin | Hi | 15:00 |
| john-davidge | hi | 15:00 |
| jschwarz | hi | 15:00 |
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| honghuixiao_ | hello | 15:00 |
| blogan | hello | 15:00 |
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| mlavalle | o/ | 15:00 |
| carl_baldwin | Let's get started. | 15:00 |
| haleyb | hi | 15:00 |
| carl_baldwin | #startmeeting neutron_routed_networks | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 7 15:00:49 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is carl_baldwin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_routed_networks' | 15:00 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Announcements | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:00 | |
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| carl_baldwin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/routed-provider-networks-notes | 15:01 |
| carl_baldwin | N-1 is past and I actually think we're pretty close to where I was hoping to be at this point. | 15:01 |
| mlavalle | ++ | 15:01 |
| carl_baldwin | Also, is everyone aware of the mid-cycle planned? | 15:01 |
| blogan | yep | 15:02 |
| mlavalle | I am | 15:02 |
| john-davidge | yep | 15:02 |
| mlavalle | 17 - 19 August | 15:02 |
| blogan | yall have fun :) | 15:02 |
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| carl_baldwin | ^ Please take special note of the dates as they have been changed! | 15:02 |
| jschwarz | yep | 15:02 |
| carl_baldwin | It is going to be Wed - Fri, not Mon - Wed as was originally announced. | 15:03 |
| mlavalle | This is the etherpad: | 15:03 |
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| mlavalle | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-neutron-midcycle | 15:03 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Thanks! | 15:03 |
| carl_baldwin | Any other announcements? | 15:04 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Devstack | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Devstack (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:04 | |
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| carl_baldwin | I got thinking yesterday that there is a fair amount of manual setup that needs to be done to get a devstack system to work with segments. | 15:05 |
| carl_baldwin | I started a patch to hopefully provide some help | 15:05 |
| john-davidge | great! | 15:05 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://review.openstack.org/326103 | 15:05 |
| carl_baldwin | It isn't much yet. | 15:05 |
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| mlavalle | I think this complements well what I've been doing with Vagrant | 15:06 |
| carl_baldwin | But, hopefully it can evolve in to something helpful. | 15:06 |
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| mlavalle | I am creating a Vagrant setup to to create a multi-node devstack with segments | 15:06 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: How's that going? Do you want to add information about what you're doing to this section of the etherpad? | 15:06 |
| blogan | sounds like a great idea | 15:06 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Maybe we can merge these efforts. | 15:07 |
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| mlavalle | carl_baldwin: yes I will add to the etherpad. I expect to port the product to github over the next couple of days | 15:07 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Sounds good. | 15:07 |
| mlavalle | as always, progress is slower that originally thought :-) | 15:07 |
| mlavalle | but I am making steady progress | 15:08 |
| mlavalle | and yes, let's merge these 2 efforts. I'll leverage your patchset | 15:08 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Great. Try to add to the etherpad when you have something that can be shared. | 15:08 |
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| carl_baldwin | #topic Associating Subnets to Segments | 15:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Associating Subnets to Segments (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:09 | |
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| carl_baldwin | There are a couple of patches in play | 15:09 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/295173 | 15:09 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/315573/ | 15:09 |
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| carl_baldwin | I've +2ed the first, it could use another core's eyes. | 15:10 |
| carl_baldwin | The second is a client patch. | 15:10 |
| carl_baldwin | Needs an update. | 15:10 |
| honghuixiao_ | I will udpate it in the following days | 15:10 |
| * honghuixiao_ is xiaohhui | 15:10 | |
| mlavalle | lol | 15:10 |
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| * carl_baldwin didn't even notice honghuixiao_ 's changed nick | 15:11 | |
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| carl_baldwin | Thanks, honghuixiao_ | 15:11 |
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| honghuixiao_ | It is just a temp name, might change back in another restart :) | 15:12 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Deferred IP Allocation on Port Update with Binding Info | 15:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Deferred IP Allocation on Port Update with Binding Info (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:12 | |
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| carl_baldwin | This is where I'm working lately. | 15:12 |
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| carl_baldwin | The IPAM work has been approved | 15:12 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://review.openstack.org/320631 | 15:12 |
| carl_baldwin | Thanks blogan and haleyb for the great reviews. | 15:12 |
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| carl_baldwin | I need to work on the Nova side to allow deferred allocation. | 15:13 |
| carl_baldwin | And, there is the bug with ML2 | 15:13 |
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| carl_baldwin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/321152 | 15:13 |
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| carl_baldwin | honghuixiao_: Sounds like you made some progress on this but I haven't had a chance to catch up. | 15:13 |
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| honghuixiao_ | I need to make some change to it, but basically, I can run the test case successfully locally | 15:14 |
| saggi | Sorry to barge in but if there is someone here for the Smaug meeting we are in #openstack-meeting-3 . We were sure it's an even week so we assume the room will be ours. Sorry for interrupting. | 15:14 |
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| carl_baldwin | saggi: No worries. Thanks. | 15:15 |
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| carl_baldwin | honghuixiao_: Cool, let me know when you have a patch set up. | 15:15 |
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| carl_baldwin | honghuixiao_: Great work. | 15:15 |
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| honghuixiao_ | I think the code is self-explanated, it is simple | 15:16 |
| carl_baldwin | So, I think this is going well. | 15:16 |
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| carl_baldwin | I'm also going to get started on adding a flag to the port so that Nova can know when to allow deferred ip allocation. I think that'll be easy once I get to it. | 15:17 |
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| carl_baldwin | That's all from me for this. Anyone else? | 15:17 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Schedule DHCP to Segments and Create DHCP ports | 15:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Schedule DHCP to Segments and Create DHCP ports (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:17 | |
| carl_baldwin | blogan: You're up. | 15:17 |
| blogan | so i split the original review into 2 | 15:18 |
| blogan | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/326261/ | 15:18 |
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| blogan | that's pretty straightforward | 15:18 |
| blogan | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/311931 | 15:18 |
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| blogan | that one is the one where the most discussion is going to happen, as it already has :) | 15:19 |
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| honghuixiao_ | So, for a network with multiple segments, and no segment_subnet in it, we will only have one dhcp service for the network, right?(assuming config to 1) | 15:19 |
| blogan | i need to read honghuixiao_'s latest comments more in depth, its morning for me :) | 15:19 |
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| honghuixiao_ | yeah, that is me adding the comments, :P | 15:19 |
| blogan | honghuixiao_: you mean multiple segments and no segment has a dhcp enabled subnet? | 15:20 |
| honghuixiao_ | yes, just the orignal muti-provider network. | 15:20 |
| carl_baldwin | honghuixiao_: That sounds about right. | 15:21 |
| carl_baldwin | What distinguishes a routed network is the subnets are attached to segments. If DHCP enabled subnets are not attached to segments, then they should work as before. | 15:21 |
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| honghuixiao_ | So, we should not delete the dhcp port in the segment automatically. Because that will cause the dhcp service unusable for the network. | 15:22 |
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| blogan | it'll make it unusable just for that segment | 15:22 |
| blogan | a dhcp port should be created per segment | 15:22 |
| blogan | an agent per segment | 15:22 |
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| carl_baldwin | honghuixiao_: Is there a comment about this already in the review? If so, do you have a link to it? | 15:23 |
| honghuixiao_ | 1 sec | 15:23 |
| honghuixiao_ | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317358/4/neutron/plugins/ml2/db.py | 15:24 |
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| honghuixiao_ | line 340 | 15:24 |
| blogan | it's totally possible, and probable, that i'm uninformed on some of this | 15:24 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317358/4/neutron/plugins/ml2/db.py@340 | 15:24 |
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| honghuixiao_ | learned, the link can be used this way | 15:25 |
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| carl_baldwin | honghuixiao_: I don't know why they didn't use the standard HTML anchor (e.g. #L340) | 15:26 |
| * mlavalle also just learned this | 15:26 | |
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| blogan | so segment should be able to be deleted if there is only the dhcp port bound to it correct? | 15:26 |
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| honghuixiao_ | I think the that is the result of discussion in previous mail list | 15:27 |
| blogan | honghuixiao_: and your concern is that there is only one dhcp port per network? | 15:27 |
| honghuixiao_ | yes, that is the original logic | 15:27 |
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| honghuixiao_ | And it is what I see when debug it | 15:28 |
| carl_baldwin | I think we might need to consider what kind of network it is (routed or not) | 15:28 |
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| honghuixiao_ | so a routed network, is the one with subnets associated with segments, right? | 15:28 |
| blogan | honghuixiao_: if each segment gets its own dhcp port would that solve the problem? i thought that already happens, but now you have me doubting myself :) | 15:28 |
| carl_baldwin | honghuixiao_: Right, that is the distinguisher. | 15:28 |
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| carl_baldwin | blogan: I think what you're saying is right *if* the network is a routed network. | 15:29 |
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| blogan | carl_baldwin: yes | 15:29 |
| carl_baldwin | But, if this code is also handling L2 adjacent networks, then it might need to be a little bit smarter. | 15:30 |
| carl_baldwin | I'd like to give the review a little more thought though before I'm sure. | 15:30 |
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| blogan | carl_baldwin: what do you mean? | 15:30 |
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| carl_baldwin | blogan: I'm not sure this code can assume it is working with a routed network. | 15:32 |
| carl_baldwin | blogan: If it isn't, and that DHCP port is the only one serving a multi-segmented network, it might be bad to delete it. | 15:32 |
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| carl_baldwin | honghuixiao_: ^ Is this kind of what you're thinking? | 15:32 |
| honghuixiao_ | yes, | 15:32 |
| mlavalle | that makes sense | 15:32 |
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| blogan | carl_baldwin: it should work the same if there are no segments | 15:33 |
| blogan | i mean the same as before | 15:33 |
| carl_baldwin | blogan: Segments couldn't be deleted before. | 15:33 |
| honghuixiao_ | yeah, we open the gate to operate segments now... | 15:34 |
| blogan | ah | 15:34 |
| reedip | sorry , some problem with my IRC, gets connection intermittently | 15:34 |
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| carl_baldwin | We have to be careful because we're adding the capability to add / delete segments for both routed networks and L2 adjacent networks. | 15:34 |
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| carl_baldwin | honghuixiao_: Is it okay if we provide feedback on that review a bit later? | 15:35 |
| honghuixiao_ | sure, | 15:35 |
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| carl_baldwin | I, for one, would like to let it sink in a little and then comment. | 15:35 |
| blogan | okay i think i see where the problem might be, ill need to run through some testing of this to get a better grasp on it | 15:35 |
| carl_baldwin | honghuixiao_: Thanks for bringing it up. It will be good to think this through. | 15:36 |
| blogan | +1 | 15:36 |
| honghuixiao_ | :) | 15:36 |
| carl_baldwin | blogan: honghuixiao_ : Anything else on DHCP? | 15:36 |
| blogan | nope | 15:36 |
| carl_baldwin | blogan: Thanks for updating the etherpad, that will be very helpful. | 15:36 |
| honghuixiao_ | I also leave a comment in the review, but I think it is OK to go on there | 15:36 |
| manjeets | etherpad link please ? | 15:37 |
| carl_baldwin | manjeets: ^^^ It is the first link in the meeting. | 15:37 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/routed-provider-networks-notes | 15:37 |
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| manjeets | thanks carl_baldwin: | 15:37 |
| carl_baldwin | manjeets: glad to help | 15:37 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Integration with Nova Scheduler | 15:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Integration with Nova Scheduler (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:38 | |
| carl_baldwin | I should've announced that the spec was merged! | 15:38 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Thanks for all of your help on that. | 15:38 |
| mlavalle | glad to help :-) | 15:38 |
| blogan | good job! | 15:38 |
| carl_baldwin | We have a few dependencies. Any way we can help there? | 15:39 |
| mlavalle | the challenge was not to miss the boat for Newton | 15:39 |
| mlavalle | The focus shifts now from specs to tracking code | 15:39 |
| mlavalle | I am tracking the new placement api | 15:40 |
| mlavalle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/293104/ | 15:40 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Are there some gerrit topics that we could link to the etherpad. | 15:40 |
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| mlavalle | Yes I will add them | 15:41 |
| mlavalle | essentially, 2 topics | 15:41 |
| mlavalle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/generic-resource-pools | 15:41 |
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| mlavalle | This is for the generic resource pools | 15:42 |
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| mlavalle | and the changes to allocate_for_instance: | 15:42 |
| mlavalle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/prep-for-network-aware-scheduling,n,z | 15:42 |
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| mlavalle | last check, johnthetubaguy hasn't posted any code yet for this one | 15:42 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Excellent. Let's stay on top of those. I'll try to work them in to my review routine. | 15:42 |
| mlavalle | Yes, we can help with reviews | 15:43 |
| mlavalle | and I have offered to johnthetubaguy to help with code if he thinks he needs it | 15:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I hope to start on that ASAP | 15:44 |
| mlavalle | In the meantime, as soon as I have the vagrant multinode test environment ready, I will strat playing with the code that is in gerrit | 15:44 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Sounds like a good plan. | 15:44 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: johnthetubaguy: Anything else for discussion? | 15:45 |
| mlavalle | not from me | 15:45 |
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| johnthetubaguy | not from me either really | 15:45 |
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| carl_baldwin | Thanks! | 15:45 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic L2 Adjacency Extension | 15:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "L2 Adjacency Extension (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:45 | |
| carl_baldwin | reedip doesn't seem to be around. I'll ping him out of band. | 15:46 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Enable Create / Delete of Segments on Existing Network | 15:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Enable Create / Delete of Segments on Existing Network (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:46 | |
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| mlavalle | he pushed a revision to his patchset | 15:46 |
| carl_baldwin | #undo | 15:47 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x7fe2376b8cd0> | 15:47 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: He did? | 15:47 |
| mlavalle | yeah | 15:47 |
| mlavalle | give me sec | 15:47 |
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| carl_baldwin | I guess I've already reviewed it so I didn't think it was new. But, it has been in the last week. | 15:47 |
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| carl_baldwin | #topic Enable Create / Delete of Segments on Existing Network | 15:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Enable Create / Delete of Segments on Existing Network (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:48 | |
| carl_baldwin | honghuixiao_: We've already started in to this a bit. Anything else? | 15:49 |
| honghuixiao_ | just need more reviews to it | 15:49 |
| honghuixiao_ | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317358 | 15:49 |
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| honghuixiao_ | Then nothing else | 15:49 |
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| carl_baldwin | honghuixiao_: ack and thank you. | 15:51 |
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| carl_baldwin | #topic Client | 15:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Client (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:51 | |
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| carl_baldwin | rtheis: Anything need attention? | 15:52 |
| rtheis | hi | 15:52 |
| rtheis | I merged a fix to the OSC client for network segments | 15:52 |
| rtheis | I would like to get to create/delete later this week | 15:53 |
| rtheis | and look at associating subnets to segments | 15:53 |
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| rtheis | that's all for now | 15:53 |
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| carl_baldwin | rtheis: Thanks, I am trying to watch the etherpad, keep it up to date as things change. | 15:54 |
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| carl_baldwin | #topic OVN plugin | 15:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OVN plugin (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:54 | |
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| carl_baldwin | Anything to discuss here? | 15:54 |
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| rtheis | OVN is now ML2 driver as of Friday | 15:54 |
| carl_baldwin | Awesome! | 15:54 |
| rtheis | I'm working on some ML2 related fixes and enhancements now. | 15:54 |
| rtheis | and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/302623/ is out for review...lots of activity on it | 15:55 |
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| honghuixiao_ | yeah, that is for geting the segment_host_maping for ovn now. Kyle is helping push the code forward | 15:55 |
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| carl_baldwin | Thanks, mestery ! | 15:56 |
| mestery | yw carl_baldwin :) | 15:56 |
| mestery | Though see comments on that patch honghuixiao_ .... | 15:56 |
| mestery | regXboi brough up an issue | 15:56 |
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| carl_baldwin | time check, we're almost done. | 15:57 |
| carl_baldwin | Anything else needs attention here? | 15:57 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Router External Gateways on Routed Networks | 15:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Router External Gateways on Routed Networks (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:58 | |
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| carl_baldwin | john-davidge has shown some interest in looking in to this. | 15:58 |
| john-davidge | Yeah, it would be good to get some eyes back on #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/300207 and the thread on the ML | 15:58 |
| john-davidge | we have a dependency on that spec going ahead | 15:58 |
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| carl_baldwin | Yeah, that thread kind of died. Do you have a link to it? | 15:59 |
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| john-davidge | i resurrected it a couple hours ago, but let me dig up the link | 15:59 |
| carl_baldwin | john-davidge: I need to get caught up on the mailing list today. | 15:59 |
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| carl_baldwin | We're out of time. | 16:00 |
| carl_baldwin | Thanks! | 16:00 |
| carl_baldwin | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
| john-davidge | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/096302.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 7 16:00:17 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-06-07-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-06-07-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-06-07-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
| carl_baldwin | john-davidge: Thanks. | 16:00 |
| honghuixiao_ | Bye~ | 16:00 |
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| sridhar_ram | #startmeeting tacker | 16:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 7 16:03:13 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sridhar_ram. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tacker' | 16:03 |
| sridhar_ram | #topic Roll Call | 16:03 |
| KanagarajM | hi | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:03 | |
| bobh | o/ | 16:03 |
| manikanta_ | o/ | 16:03 |
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| sripriya_ | o/ | 16:04 |
| vishwanathj | o/ | 16:04 |
| santoshk | hi | 16:04 |
| tbh | o/ | 16:04 |
| s3wong | o/ | 16:04 |
| sridhar_ram | alright, lets start... | 16:04 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic Agenda | 16:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Agenda (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:04 | |
| sridhar_ram | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Tacker#Meeting_June_7.2C_2016 | 16:04 |
| sridhar_ram | anything else to discuss beyond this ? | 16:05 |
| sridhar_ram | moving on.. | 16:05 |
| sridhar_ram | #topic Annoucements | 16:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Annoucements (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:05 | |
| sridhar_ram | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-June/096774.html | 16:06 |
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| sridhar_ram | we have new core team member for tacker (main) project.. | 16:06 |
| sridhar_ram | tbh: welcome to the team! | 16:06 |
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| sripriya_ | tbh: congrats! | 16:06 |
| vishwanathj | tbh congrats and well deserved | 16:06 |
| manikanta_ | Congrats tbh ...Way to go !! | 16:06 |
| KanagarajM | congrats tbh ! | 16:06 |
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| santoshk | congrats tbh | 16:07 |
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| sridhar_ram | tbh: thanks for all your contributions so far... we have many interesting things to accomplish ! | 16:07 |
| bobh | tbh: congrats and welcome! | 16:07 |
| sridhar_ram | next... | 16:07 |
| tbh | thanks all | 16:07 |
| tbh | sridhar_ram, sure | 16:07 |
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| sridhar_ram | Tacker now has support for Reno based releasenotes management | 16:08 |
| sridhar_ram | Please follow the usage guide at... | 16:08 |
| sridhar_ram | #link http://docs.openstack.org/developer/reno/usage.html | 16:08 |
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| sridhar_ram | ... please use it to capture new features , deprecation notes or any other heads up to our user community | 16:09 |
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| sridhar_ram | this is a best practice to pick early in our dev | 16:10 |
| sridhar_ram | moving on... | 16:10 |
| sridhar_ram | #topic Monitoring & Scaling specs | 16:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Monitoring & Scaling specs (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:10 | |
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| sripriya_ | sridhar_ram: should reno be updated whenever we implement a new feature? | 16:11 |
| sridhar_ram | sripriya_: yes | 16:11 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, for scaling, i think, spec is alomst ready | 16:11 |
| sripriya_ | sridhar_ram: ok | 16:12 |
| tung_doan | hi all. sorry i am late | 16:12 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, only two of your comments to be decided | 16:12 |
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| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: okay.. i think finalizing the TOSCA parser is important.. | 16:12 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, technically I think PATCH should be | 16:12 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, yeah, on TOSCA side, saw a patch on the support for sclaing policy | 16:13 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, should we add that in the spec? | 16:13 |
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| sridhar_ram | bobh: any thoughts on navigating the tosca-parser dependency for scaling ? | 16:14 |
| bobh | sridhar_ram: if the tosca-parser side can be completed soon it can be released in the next t-p point load and pulled in | 16:14 |
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| bobh | sridhar_ram: is there also a heat-translator dependency? | 16:14 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: bobh: do we have dep on both tosca-parser and heat-translator for our scaling needs ? | 16:14 |
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| sridhar_ram | bobh: hehe.. had the same question to you :) | 16:15 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, I saw a patch on the heat-translator, and i believe tosca parser alaready support the ppolicy | 16:15 |
| bobh | sridhar_ram: I should probably know that I guess..... | 16:15 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: bobh: first order of deps IMO is tosca-parser.. my understanding is heat-translator can be "managed" ? | 16:16 |
| bobh | sridhar_ram: I'll try to track down whats in flight on both t-p and h-t | 16:16 |
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| sridhar_ram | bobh: that would help...! | 16:16 |
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| bobh | sridhar_ram: that's one word for it :-) | 16:16 |
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| KanagarajM | bobh, thanks. that would help ! | 16:16 |
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| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: bobh: an important deviation i see is on the way the monitoring trigger policy is captured... | 16:17 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, how about the specs update for the reference to that heat-translaotr pathc | 16:17 |
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| sridhar_ram | fyi, please review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/302636/ .. this is still open in heat-translator | 16:18 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: i would like to discuss monitoring policy in TOSCA template. | 16:19 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram:monitoring policy is embedded in Scaling poplicy | 16:19 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, you mean supporting to monitor across vdus. | 16:19 |
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| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: sure.. lets update the spec mention that we will leverage tosca-parser & heat-translator as appropriate... | 16:19 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, ok. thats better. | 16:20 |
| sridhar_ram | moving to tung_doan monitoring spec... | 16:20 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: my understanding is you proposed a separate "tosca.policies.monitoring" node type for mon policy.. | 16:21 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram:right | 16:21 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: IMO, this is a very good approach | 16:21 |
| sridhar_ram | this mon policy can have 1 or more "targets" VDUs.. | 16:22 |
| KanagarajM | yeah, that would really helps to monitor across vdus. | 16:22 |
| sridhar_ram | we also have a separate "tosca.policies.scaling" node type specifically for scaling policy... | 16:22 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: actually it is also related to some actions | 16:23 |
| sridhar_ram | for auto-scaling the "tosca.policies.monitoring" should have an action triggering "tosca.policies.scaling" | 16:23 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: agree... | 16:24 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: KanagarajM: i don't mean to rat hole on this too much... once we have enough clarity we should wrap up the specs and move on to the implementation.. | 16:24 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: that is my concern | 16:24 |
| sridhar_ram | bobh: tung_doan: KanagarajM : what do you think ? | 16:24 |
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| sridhar_ram | bobh: can you help to make sure the TOSCA semantics gel well across these two specs ? | 16:26 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, yeah, that s good idea. I will push the patch on the spec today for scaling and start the impl by this week | 16:26 |
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| bobh | sridhar_ram: only concern is I'm on vacation for a week starting tomorrow | 16:26 |
| bobh | sridhar_ram: I can try to do a quick review tonight but I'll be offline after that until next Wednesday | 16:27 |
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| tung_doan | <sridhar_ram>: IMHO, separating them is not difficult work. | 16:27 |
| sridhar_ram | bobh: thanks | 16:27 |
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| KanagarajM | bobh, by then you will have many patches to look at ;) | 16:27 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: that's good.. it is better keep them independent in the beginning so that patchsets can keep landing | 16:28 |
| bobh | KanagarajM: :-) | 16:29 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: sure. I will follow Santosh's spec as well | 16:29 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: KanagarajM : how is callbacks (webhooks) from Ceilometer and Heat-Scaling going to be handled ? | 16:30 |
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| sridhar_ram | will tacker-service expose a webservice to receive these call backs ? | 16:31 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, tung_doan i think that is the way to go .... as ceilometer needs to inform the tacker | 16:31 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: yes. it should be defined in TOSCA template. | 16:31 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: we need to provide a webservice. it is way to go | 16:32 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: this piece is not related to the TOSCA template | 16:32 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: it will be good to describe this webservice in your spec... as it is technically an external facing endpoint | 16:34 |
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| tung_doan | KanagarajM: "ceilometer needs to inform the tacker". What do you mean? | 16:34 |
| sridhar_ram | we also need to secure this channel | 16:34 |
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| tung_doan | KanagarajM: you mean we can use directly Ceilometer? | 16:35 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: OK/// | 16:35 |
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| KanagarajM | tung_doan, when ceilometer evaluate the alarm, it needs to invoke the tacker, | 16:35 |
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| sridhar_ram | the way i parse this .. tosca.policies.monitoring --will translate--> HOT Ceilometer resource with webhook pointing back to tacker callback webservice | 16:36 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, +1 | 16:37 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: +1 | 16:37 |
| sridhar_ram | alright, we are the same page :) | 16:37 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: now for scaling.. | 16:37 |
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| sridhar_ram | .. how do you plan to keep Tacker in the loop when a scaling VM is created or deleted ? | 16:38 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, corresponding events will be generated and capture the scaling related details | 16:39 |
| sridhar_ram | like i mentioned in the spec, we need to support custom scaling workflows like giving the ip addr of the new scaled out VM to the control plan vm | 16:39 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: again, this will need a tacker webservice to handle the callbacks ? | 16:39 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: is it a webhook like callback or more like a RPC event ? | 16:39 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, webhook is a like a callback. a | 16:40 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, i think once scling is completed, we could pull the new VMs IP from the heat | 16:40 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: cool, i guess then we need to have *one* tacker webservice across these two specs... | 16:40 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: once integrating scaling and monitoring.. one tacker webservice is possible | 16:41 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, from heat to make it async , i.e or we could listen for scaling event from heat and then pull the IP of new VM | 16:41 |
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| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: tung_doan: I will be great if you both can co-ordinate on this common webservice piece that be leveraged to handle both ceilometer and scaling callbacks | 16:42 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, for scaling , imo, callbacks does not help | 16:42 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: it is truly goo d way to gi | 16:42 |
| tung_doan | *gi: go | 16:42 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: cool, can you please desc few sentences on this in your spec | 16:42 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, instead, we should depends on the heat spec | 16:42 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, yeah sure. | 16:43 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: what you mean by "depends on heat spec" ? | 16:43 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, sorry typo, heat events | 16:43 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: okay... make sense.. | 16:44 |
| sridhar_ram | alright, i think we are in the last legs of this specs.. i'd love to see both of these specs wrapped up by this week | 16:45 |
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| sridhar_ram | team - please do your last call reviews! | 16:45 |
| sridhar_ram | moving on... | 16:45 |
| sridhar_ram | #topic NSD Scoping | 16:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "NSD Scoping (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:45 | |
| sridhar_ram | dkushawa: are you here ? | 16:45 |
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| sridhar_ram | I don't see him here.. lets move this topic to next week | 16:47 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic Midcycle Meetup | 16:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Midcycle Meetup (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:47 | |
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| johncallaghan | topic: appeco_wg | 16:48 |
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| sridhar_ram | I'd like to do a quick poll here if the wider team is interested in participating in a Tacker midcycle meetup | 16:48 |
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| sridhar_ram | ... our team spread across diff TZs.. | 16:48 |
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| sridhar_ram | how many of you would prefer a 2-day virtual midcycle meetup ? | 16:49 |
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| sripriya_ | sridhar_ram: +1 | 16:49 |
| sridhar_ram | sripriya_: thanks... | 16:50 |
| s3wong | sridhar_ram: virtual is good | 16:50 |
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| bobh | sridhar_ram: +1 | 16:50 |
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| sridhar_ram | bobh: s3wong: thanks! | 16:50 |
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| sridhar_ram | i'll also send a doodle pool out to the ML to gauge the interest.. | 16:51 |
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| sridhar_ram | moving on... | 16:51 |
| sridhar_ram | #topic Open Discussion | 16:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:51 | |
| sridhar_ram | any general things to discuss ? | 16:51 |
| sridhar_ram | bugs, docs, gate jobs... | 16:52 |
| sripriya_ | sridhar_ram: i had one update on a rfe i'm working | 16:52 |
| sridhar_ram | sripriya_: sure, go ahead | 16:52 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, sripriya_ bobh kindly have a look at events spec https://review.openstack.org/#/c/321370/ | 16:52 |
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| sripriya | sridhar_ram: i'm planning to remove the whole <class name>-<file path-><uuid>-<vdu name> thing for heat stack names | 16:54 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: will do | 16:54 |
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| bobh | KanagarajM: will do | 16:54 |
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| sripriya__ | sridhar_ram: this will reflect on the vdu name as well | 16:55 |
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| sridhar_ram | sripriya: is there a way we can preserve <first 6 chars in uuid>-<vdu-name> ? | 16:55 |
| sripriya__ | sridhar_ram: which uuid ar eyou referrign to? | 16:55 |
| sripriya__ | *are you referring | 16:55 |
| sridhar_ram | the current uuid .. which is the vnf uuid | 16:56 |
| sripriya__ | sridhar_ram: is that serving any purporse now that we will make vnf names unique? | 16:56 |
| sridhar_ram | i'm suggesting something similar to "git log --oneline" | 16:56 |
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| sripriya__ | sridhar_ram: what does that do? | 16:58 |
| sridhar_ram | i was thinking removing is class-name and file-path makes perfect sense.. but i do see value in a portion of uuid+vdu-name for debugging purpose | 16:58 |
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| * sridhar_ram 2mins left | 16:58 | |
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| sripriya__ | sridhar_ram: the vdu names inside vnf are also unique resource names | 16:58 |
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| sridhar_ram | looks we are out of time for today.. | 16:59 |
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| sridhar_ram | sripriya__: let's take this offline ? | 16:59 |
| sripriya__ | sridhar_ram: i will be pushing a gerrit patch soon and we can discuss on that. i just wanted to give a heads up to the broader team on the refactoring of stack and nova namrs | 16:59 |
| sripriya__ | names* | 16:59 |
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| sridhar_ram | sripriya__: thanks for the heads up | 17:00 |
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| sridhar_ram | that's it folks.. | 17:00 |
| sridhar_ram | bye all | 17:00 |
| sridhar_ram | #endmeeting | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 7 17:00:18 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-06-07-16.03.html | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-06-07-16.03.txt | 17:00 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-06-07-16.03.log.html | 17:00 |
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| breton | lets meet. | 18:00 |
| samueldmq | courtesy ping to ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, MaxPC, morgan, nkinder, notmorgan, raildo, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tjcocozz, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek | 18:00 |
| henrynash_ | meetint | 18:00 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 18:00 |
| rodrigods | o/ | 18:00 |
| browne | o/ | 18:00 |
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| dstanek | o/ | 18:00 |
| roxanaghe | \o | 18:00 |
| lhcheng | o/ | 18:00 |
| rderose | o/ | 18:00 |
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| bknudson | meet() | 18:00 |
| ayoung | OYEZ OYEZ | 18:00 |
| jamielennox | do we have a stevemar this time? | 18:00 |
| amakarov | hi | 18:00 |
| knikolla | hiiii o/ | 18:01 |
| samueldmq | hi all, it's that time | 18:01 |
| nk2527 | howdy | 18:01 |
| notmorgan | o/ | 18:01 |
| ayoung | samueldmq, you running things this week? | 18:01 |
| notmorgan | \o | 18:01 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: he is | 18:01 |
| topol | o/ | 18:01 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox: not sure, I agreed with him I will be running this time | 18:01 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: ++ | 18:01 |
| jamielennox | samueldmq: all yours then | 18:01 |
| samueldmq | thanks | 18:01 |
| samueldmq | #startmeeting keystone | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 7 18:01:55 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is samueldmq. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:02 |
| shaleh | \o | 18:02 |
| samueldmq | welcome everyone | 18:02 |
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| nk2527 | o/ | 18:02 |
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| samueldmq | we have 4 topics to discuss today | 18:02 |
| samueldmq | #topic Mapping shadow users into projects and roles | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mapping shadow users into projects and roles (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
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| samueldmq | dolphm: o/ | 18:02 |
| notmorgan | samueldmq: i have an open topic at the end to add | 18:02 |
| notmorgan | samueldmq: so just save me ~5m at the end pl | 18:02 |
| notmorgan | z | 18:02 |
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| samueldmq | notmorgan: sure | 18:02 |
| samueldmq | is dolphm around ? otherwise we can just start with another topic and then circle back | 18:03 |
| ayoung | this is autoprovisioning. | 18:03 |
| dolphm | yes | 18:03 |
| ayoung | We've had a request for this for a long time | 18:03 |
| samueldmq | dolphm: nice, the floor is yours | 18:04 |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/324055/ | 18:04 |
| dolphm | so, this spec came directly out of the austin summit | 18:04 |
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| dolphm | the gist is that it makes a lot of sense to do some basic provisioning of authorization-related things in mapping, especially for federation use cases | 18:05 |
| dolphm | since we have a chicken & egg problem otherwise | 18:05 |
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| dolphm | ayoung's "Federated query APIs" specification has a pretty good illustration of that chicken & egg problem | 18:05 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: imnsho +2. | 18:05 |
| topol | dolphm +++ | 18:05 |
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| notmorgan | (imnsho = in my not so humble opinion) | 18:06 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, question...is control of this going to be managed solely by the mapping file, or will we use an additional domain specific config to "gate" whether a projedct can be automatically created within a specific domain? | 18:06 |
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| dolphm | so, the solution here is basically to lazily provision things like projects and role assignments during the auth process - after a user has been authenticated, but before we give them a token for the first time | 18:06 |
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| rodrigods | ayoung, there is a domain attribute | 18:06 |
| dolphm | so that token can actually be immediately useful, with a project, roles, and all | 18:06 |
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| ayoung | Actually...I'd like to see a domain specific config value "allowed_idps" for mapping in general, and then autocreate is on top of that | 18:07 |
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| notmorgan | ayoung: that is a fair request. | 18:07 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: i think. | 18:07 |
| dolphm | ayoung: as part of the spec, i'm envisioning mapping files to become a bit more domain-specific, if that makes sense. i think domain admins should be able to manage their own mapping files | 18:07 |
| rodrigods | idps should be tied to domains since the beginning | 18:07 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: ++ | 18:07 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, yeah, with the config options in the database, this is more practical, too | 18:07 |
| rodrigods | they are domains | 18:07 |
| henrynash_ | dolphm: so (as you know) I support this (although have a follow up concern whcih is next on teh agenda, but that doesn’t stop the conceptual idea here) | 18:07 |
| ayoung | dolphm, 10000% yes | 18:08 |
| dolphm | so, there's a domain ID attribute in the mapping which is the key to that notion | 18:08 |
| notmorgan | henrynash_: and i have a very strong view on that. but i'll hold until your topic. | 18:08 |
| henrynash_ | notmorgan: cool | 18:08 |
| shaleh | so where is the disagreement here? | 18:08 |
| dstanek | dolphm: could this eventually solve the "i project 1234 here and when i federation there i also get project 1234"? | 18:08 |
| samueldmq | shaleh: I don't think there is one :) | 18:08 |
| ayoung | dolphm, I think that if we say "create the domain, create the domain specific config, specify idps for domain, allow auto provisioning" in that order we are on the right track | 18:08 |
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| shaleh | are we doing on demand creation to save DB space or something? | 18:09 |
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| dolphm | shaleh: this spec is new since last meeting, so i was just looking for an opportunity to socialize it, and answer any questions | 18:09 |
| shaleh | dolphm: k | 18:09 |
| lbragstad | i'm on board | 18:09 |
| ayoung | then the mapping can be uploaded safely, as it can only map to specific domains | 18:09 |
| notmorgan | shaleh: on demand or pre-create doesn't really change the nature of the spec. | 18:09 |
| dolphm | shaleh: to save space versus pre-provisioning a bunch of projects you may not need? | 18:10 |
| shaleh | notmorgan: agreed. I was asking about the detail | 18:10 |
| ayoung | henrynash_, you are the Domain specific config guru. Does what I say make sense? is it practical? | 18:10 |
| lbragstad | and also to get around the weird ux of having a user hit keystone (uselessly) in order to assign them stuff | 18:10 |
| samueldmq | would it be a good idea to let admins explicitly set when a project is expected to exist ? | 18:10 |
| samueldmq | in the mapping ? ^ dolphm | 18:10 |
| shaleh | samueldmq: expand on that | 18:11 |
| dolphm | samueldmq: i replied to your comment in the review | 18:11 |
| rodrigods | samueldmq, good point | 18:11 |
| dolphm | samueldmq: L141 | 18:11 |
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| * samueldmq nods, looking | 18:11 | |
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| shaleh | on first read this sounds reasonable. I need to think about it some. | 18:11 |
| ayoung | dolphm, I'll respond to the review request with these suggestions. | 18:11 |
| dolphm | samueldmq: rodrigods: the suggestion implies a lot of complexity without a well defined use case to support it | 18:12 |
| henrynash_ | ayoung: probably…but need to dig in deeper | 18:12 |
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| dolphm | shaleh: cool - you'll have plenty of time to digest :) | 18:12 |
| rodrigods | dolphm, good point too in the reply :) | 18:12 |
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| rodrigods | dolphm, did you consider HMT? | 18:12 |
| rodrigods | i mean... the mapping is flat | 18:12 |
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| shaleh | rodrigods: nah, who wants that :-) | 18:12 |
| dolphm | rodrigods: it's a list of projects, and each project object could have a parent ID, description, etc -- the other things a project requires | 18:13 |
| samueldmq | dolphm: default would be true, but if it's set to create=False and it exists... mapping invalid ? | 18:13 |
| rodrigods | dolphm, ++ | 18:13 |
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| samueldmq | dolphm: that doesn't work, I agree that just adds complexity | 18:13 |
| jamielennox | still reading but in general i like it | 18:13 |
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| rodrigods | dolphm, and... inherited roles? the same? | 18:13 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: i believe it's what you were describing on the mailing list | 18:13 |
| dolphm | in the thread with amakarov | 18:14 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: whilst i need to think about the domain admins managing this - why does that need to be part of this spec?? | 18:14 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: this seems to cover a chunk of the provisioning concerns. so i am a fan. | 18:14 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: yea, but i assumed it would be more difficult than this :) | 18:14 |
| dolphm | rodrigods: i imagine inherited roles could be expressed as an attribute on the role object in the project definition? so for example, inherited=True (or whatever the attribute is called in the role assignment API) on L144 for example | 18:14 |
| rodrigods | dolphm, yeah, makes sense | 18:15 |
| rodrigods | dolphm, suggest just to add a note about them there | 18:15 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: good question. the constraint is not a hard requirement, but it simplifies the mapping definition (otherwise, you'd have to specify a bunch of domain IDs in the mapping, for each project and all) | 18:15 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: doing it once at the top seems to solve everyone's use cases that i've talked to, and simplifies the security model quite a bit | 18:16 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: ++ | 18:16 |
| dolphm | notmorgan: a chunk? where would you want to take it next / what does it not cover? | 18:16 |
| samueldmq | nice, any other concerns on this spec ? I think we seem to have an agreement on it | 18:17 |
| dolphm | notmorgan: i assume you agree this is MVP for the idea | 18:17 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: yes. | 18:17 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: and can be built on. | 18:17 |
| ayoung | henrynash_, I'd be OK with, instead of them being domain specific config options, they go on the domain object in the resource backend. | 18:17 |
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| * topol felt very MVP to me as well | 18:17 | |
| notmorgan | dolphm: i don't see anything clearly needing to be added now. a good starting place | 18:17 |
| dolphm | notmorgan: ack | 18:17 |
| dolphm | samueldmq: thanks, we can move on | 18:17 |
| samueldmq | dolphm: perfect | 18:17 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: and like i said +2 :) | 18:17 |
| samueldmq | so please review the spec, and let's move on | 18:17 |
| henrynash_ | ayoung: but could you write policy rule to control management? | 18:17 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: yea, in general i would think it simplifies most peoples case and helps the domain admin model, but there is some additional validation i think you would want to see like if you specify a domain id for a whole mapping then you shouldn't be able to specify a different domain id for any project or role | 18:17 |
| ayoung | henrynash_, I don't think you need to. | 18:18 |
| samueldmq | #topic Should shadowing users be optional? | 18:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Should shadowing users be optional? (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:18 | |
| jamielennox | dolphm: to the point where it should almost be a different spec | 18:18 |
| samueldmq | henrynash_: o/ | 18:18 |
| * notmorgan grabs soapbox. | 18:18 | |
| henrynash_ | ah oops | 18:18 |
| ayoung | henrynash_, it could be enforced by the rules engine at mapping time, or even confirmed when the mapping is uploaded | 18:18 |
| henrynash_ | ayoung: later, i’;m up | 18:18 |
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| jamielennox | also where is that domain name immutable flag | 18:18 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, that is a global value | 18:19 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: agree, and i forgot about that flag | 18:19 |
| notmorgan | ok, please coninute this convo on the spec | 18:19 |
| henrynash_ | so my concern here is about whether we NEED to have shadow users…what If I don’t want local direct assigments…and have multidatcentres….don;t I know have another bigs table to replicate? | 18:19 |
| dolphm | notmorgan: ++ | 18:19 |
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| samueldmq | notmorgan: ++ | 18:19 |
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| notmorgan | henrynash_: yes. we do. | 18:19 |
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| samueldmq | let's focus on the current topic | 18:19 |
| ayoung | henrynash_, would that be on a per Idp basis? | 18:19 |
| notmorgan | henrynash_: this should not be optional | 18:19 |
| BroNeed | What is this place? | 18:19 |
| henrynash_ | notmorgan: becasue.... | 18:19 |
| notmorgan | the data doesn't move that fast, it simplifies out internal code paths AND security model | 18:20 |
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| notmorgan | and it prevents us from many many extra edge cases | 18:20 |
| BroNeed | AND you say? | 18:20 |
| rderose | notmorgan: ++ | 18:20 |
| dstanek | henrynash_: replication shouldn't be terrible unless you are adding/removing users at lightning speed | 18:20 |
| dolphm | henrynash_: so... your use case is that you have separate clouds that should not have replicated identity data? | 18:20 |
| dolphm | henrynash_: why are you replicating in the first place? | 18:20 |
| notmorgan | have multiple code paths, security models, etc all means we're battling a lot of possible paths of maintenance and optimisation | 18:20 |
| BroNeed | many many you say? | 18:20 |
| henrynash_ | dolphm: I am assuming federation, but replication projects and assignments | 18:20 |
| jamielennox | yea, i don't think shadow users should be optional | 18:21 |
| BroNeed | optimization u say? | 18:21 |
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| BroNeed | shadow users you say? | 18:21 |
| notmorgan | fungi, jeblair, mordred, might need a kick here in this channel (cc anyone who is op) | 18:21 |
| jamielennox | there are too many things that will hopefully rely upon it like direct role assignment | 18:21 |
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| shaleh | can we find a way to prevent the need to replicate? | 18:21 |
| ayoung | shaleh, no, I don't think so | 18:21 |
| henrynash_ | so why do we need direct role assignment if we have this mapping faciity we sjust discussed? | 18:22 |
| ayoung | shaleh, actuallllly | 18:22 |
| ayoung | yes | 18:22 |
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| notmorgan | fungi, jeblair, mordred: will ping if it becomes really important. (thnx) | 18:22 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: thanks | 18:22 |
| BroNeed | Do any of you know what are you are talkibg about or arw you just using fancy words with no meaning? | 18:22 |
| ayoung | henrynash_, so, what if we forced the id_mapping approach on shadow users | 18:22 |
| dolphm | BroNeed: are you here for an actual discussion, or are you just spamming the channel? | 18:22 |
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| BroNeed | Yes | 18:22 |
| BroNeed | I asked what is this place | 18:22 |
| rderose | henrynash_: mapping relies on direct role assignments | 18:22 |
| henrynash_ | (don’t ecnourage it) | 18:22 |
| ayoung | dolphm, pretty sure it is a bot | 18:23 |
| dolphm | ayoung: agree | 18:23 |
| BroNeed | Lol no | 18:23 |
| BroNeed | I am no bot. | 18:23 |
| dolphm | BroNeed: please don't disrupt the meeting unless you have something to contribute | 18:23 |
| BroNeed | Just asking what this placw is | 18:23 |
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| shaleh | ^topic | 18:23 |
| BroNeed | Yes mam | 18:23 |
| dstanek | ayoung: you think we can do away with the replication? | 18:23 |
| ayoung | dstanek, yep | 18:23 |
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| ayoung | if the userid is deterministic | 18:24 |
| ayoung | it will be the same in all places | 18:24 |
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| ayoung | for LDAP idMapping we do | 18:24 |
| dolphm | henrynash_: i don't see the data being created by shadow users to be particularly burdensome for replication | 18:24 |
| henrynash_ | redrose: if the mapping is going to create an assignment (whcih is what we just dsicused), why couldn’t it use teh epemeral user_id created by the mappoing | 18:24 |
| shaleh | considering all the work Fernet puts into limiting replication, I'd rather not add more | 18:24 |
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| ayoung | sha256{userid, domainid} | 18:24 |
| ayoung | we'd make Federation use idp instead | 18:24 |
| dolphm | henrynash_: as usual, there will be bursts of writes when new users arrive, but that's true today anyway | 18:24 |
| ayoung | sha256{userid, idpid} | 18:24 |
| ayoung | with the userid value the value from the assertion | 18:24 |
| jamielennox | user id being deterministic doesn't get you things like role assignments that were created | 18:24 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: ++ | 18:25 |
| notmorgan | but role assignments could be replicated without too much worry -- | 18:25 |
| jamielennox | notmorgan: so could user ids | 18:25 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: sure. | 18:25 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: i'd argue you'd probably replicate it all. | 18:25 |
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| notmorgan | but i see this as non-optional, is my only point, not digging into replicate-or-not-to-replicate | 18:26 |
| dolphm | shaleh: it's also the difference between rather static data (users, roles, projects), and highly disposable data (tokens) | 18:26 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, but if there are explicit role assignments, those would have to be replicated anyway. henrynash_ 's complaint is that his setup does not have direct role assignments in the normal case | 18:26 |
| henrynash_ | i’d just seems really odd that we have federation, then we require keystone to replaciate around shadow versions of this same info | 18:26 |
| dstanek | i'm a firm -1 here because it just makes things too complicated. | 18:26 |
| shaleh | dolphm: understood | 18:26 |
| dstanek | at what scale is user replication problematic? | 18:26 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: -1 on optional? | 18:26 |
| dstanek | yes | 18:26 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: or -1 on required? | 18:26 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: :P | 18:26 |
| dstanek | it needs to be required | 18:26 |
| lbragstad | you'd have to be creating thousands of users a second, no | 18:26 |
| lbragstad | ? | 18:27 |
| notmorgan | ok cool. | 18:27 |
| dstanek | lbragstad: maybe? | 18:27 |
| notmorgan | replication of even a few thousand rows is not that much | 18:27 |
| notmorgan | fwiw. | 18:27 |
| shaleh | lbragstad: new group onboarding, M&A, etc. | 18:27 |
| dstanek | is this an actual problem that we can quantify and solve or is it theoretical right now? | 18:27 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: but therefore what you can have keystones without replicating data? what about projects etc? | 18:27 |
| * notmorgan steps off the soapbox. | 18:27 | |
| * notmorgan shoves the soapbox back under the desk | 18:27 | |
| dolphm | dstanek: ++ | 18:28 |
| gyee | you can also configure selective replication right? doesn't have to be all tables | 18:28 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: good question | 18:28 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, it would work like this: | 18:28 |
| notmorgan | gyee: you can. | 18:28 |
| rderose | henrynash_: yeah, it's possible, but I think the goal is to eventually treat federated users like any other users and not have these special edge cases (ephemeral). | 18:28 |
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| notmorgan | samueldmq: 30m in (fyi) | 18:28 |
| topol | do we have use cases for all these fancy replication bells and whistles? | 18:28 |
| gyee | notmorgan, then we don't need to do anything special on the keystone side | 18:29 |
| ayoung | don't replicate shadow user, but replicate role assignment./ User goes from instance 1, where they have a shadow user record, to instance 2 where they do now. Shadow user record is created, and mataches id in role assignment | 18:29 |
| notmorgan | gyee: exactly | 18:29 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: thnaks, we're changing topics now | 18:29 |
| notmorgan | topol: replication is deployer choices and out of scope of keystone imo | 18:29 |
| samueldmq | so, we don't seem to have a 100% agreement on this right now, henrynash_ please post comments on the spec and continue discussion there | 18:29 |
| samueldmq | we need to move on | 18:29 |
| ayoung | dolphm, do you have any strong objection to the userid generation scheme I proposed? | 18:29 |
| henrynash_ | ayoung: assuming you don’t have something liek service users in your default domain, which you probably do | 18:29 |
| shaleh | ayoung: that sounds like what we all discussed happening in Tokyo | 18:29 |
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| bknudson | we're likely going to need to figure out a way to replicate users, projects, etc., so that we can share tokens between datacenters. database replication doesn't work when the code is at different levels. | 18:29 |
| ayoung | henrynash_, will still work | 18:29 |
| jamielennox | yea, -1 on making this optional, you already replicate a lot of data to make this work, users is not a big deal and simplifies our code a lot | 18:30 |
| samueldmq | please continue in dolphm's spec | 18:30 |
| samueldmq | #topic SAML2 Middleware | 18:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "SAML2 Middleware (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:30 | |
| henrynash_ | ok, thx | 18:30 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: o/ | 18:30 |
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| gyee | bknudson, don't share, trust :-) | 18:30 |
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| dstanek | samueldmq: o/ | 18:30 |
| dstanek | #link https://github.com/dstanek/keystone-saml2-experiment/tree/testshib-hacking (experimental hacking) | 18:30 |
| dstanek | this is something i've been working on and wanted to give an update and collect some input | 18:30 |
| topol | notmorgan yes those bells and whistles were scaring me a little | 18:30 |
| dstanek | i need the IdPs that a Keystone SP can use to be highly dynamic and controlled by an API | 18:31 |
| dstanek | i want to limit Apache restarts | 18:31 |
| lbragstad | ++ | 18:31 |
| dstanek | i want to limit the need to use Keystone's API to manipulate thirdparty configuration | 18:31 |
| dstanek | i want centralized control over the IdP configuration (read: database not distributed XML files) | 18:31 |
| dstanek | so...i started working on middleware to replace mod_shib/shibboleth - that is mostly backed by pysaml2 | 18:31 |
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| topol | dstanek very cool! | 18:32 |
| shaleh | dstanek: less dependence on apache too??? | 18:32 |
| ayoung | dstanek, could you tackle this in mod_auth_mellon instead | 18:32 |
| ayoung | please | 18:32 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: in? | 18:32 |
| gyee | dstanek, we went over this awhile back | 18:32 |
| ayoung | the world needs this. It is not a Keystone specific requirement | 18:32 |
| gyee | I remember we hit a few critical issues | 18:32 |
| dstanek | right now i can almost do a round trip using testship (will be done by the end of the day) | 18:32 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, anything that needs SSO needs to be able to mananage the Idps | 18:33 |
| gyee | 1) how to prevent replay attack | 18:33 |
| dstanek | i did lots of experiments with shib and mellon, but not a lot of good results | 18:33 |
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| dstanek | ayoung: i will provide for the world! | 18:33 |
| dolphm | gyee: a replay of what against what? | 18:33 |
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| samueldmq | dstanek: this is a great idea | 18:33 |
| ayoung | dstanek, we have a team that works on that kind of stuff. | 18:33 |
| gyee | dolphm, submit the saml doc twice | 18:33 |
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| dstanek | gyee: that's not terrible. you just need a list of open requests. | 18:33 |
| gyee | like managing the relay state | 18:34 |
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| dstanek | samueldmq: not my idea :-) i'm just hacking on it | 18:34 |
| ayoung | its a python specific approach. I have real concerns with doing crypto heavy operations in python | 18:34 |
| ayoung | but, that is not the real issue | 18:34 |
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| samueldmq | dstanek: hacking on it in keystone is your great idea ;) | 18:34 |
| dstanek | gyee: right now my demo code does this with a process cache, but in a real impl i would have to use the database | 18:34 |
| dolphm | gyee: so after breaking the SSL connection between the client and keystone, you want to prevent a third party from sending that same request? | 18:34 |
| jamielennox | gyee: i don't remember there being a nonce or anything in saml2? is there? | 18:35 |
| ayoung | the real issue is that having SAML handled by a module for Apache that needs config file changes is too static | 18:35 |
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| dstanek | dolphm: yes. because clients are stupid and may log saml or whatever | 18:35 |
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| gyee | there's a relay state management in shibd | 18:35 |
| jamielennox | gyee: there's a validity period on the assertion, but nothing that the server does specifically for replays | 18:35 |
| gyee | it also includes trust originator | 18:35 |
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| gyee | like the entire request URL is part of the signature itself | 18:35 |
| ayoung | I don't want to get Keystone into the world of general SAML support unless we are going to use SAML to replace tokens | 18:36 |
| bknudson | is this a new library or does it live in keystone? | 18:36 |
| gyee | I remember we were having trouble with it when fronted by a proxy | 18:36 |
| bknudson | probably has to live in keystone if it's got a db | 18:36 |
| dolphm | gyee: how does shib / mellon solve that problem? | 18:36 |
| dstanek | bknudson: i would like it to live in keystone since i think it would be generally useful | 18:36 |
| gyee | dolphm, it validates what's in the relay state against the caller | 18:37 |
| ayoung | this is the wrong community for this dstanek . SAML is only one of several Federation protocols. We've had more requests for openicd lately than SAML | 18:37 |
| gyee | like the request URL, time stamp, etc | 18:37 |
| dstanek | ayoung: do you mean writing code to parse and interpret saml or writing code that uses a library to do that? | 18:37 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: is there a spec up for review so we can review/use for discussions ? | 18:37 |
| gyee | if we implement relay state in middleware that would be awesomer | 18:37 |
| ayoung | dstanek, even the second part | 18:37 |
| ayoung | its not a keystone specific problem | 18:38 |
| dstanek | ayoung: we already do this for k2k - this just brings it full circle | 18:38 |
| ayoung | dstanek, I know. and it was a mistake then | 18:38 |
| bknudson | is restarting apache that big of a deal? you spin up a new instance and shut down the old one. | 18:38 |
| rodrigods | k2k is crippled saml | 18:38 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: the keystone specific problem is managing one or more trusted IdP's per domain via the API as a domain admin without having to be the cloud operator, etc, right? | 18:38 |
| dstanek | samueldmq: no, but there can be | 18:38 |
| dolphm | bknudson: as a domain admin, i don't have the ability to do that | 18:38 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: I think that would be useful | 18:39 |
| jamielennox | also k2k is an saml idp which is an easier problem | 18:39 |
| dstanek | samueldmq: couldn't design it before digging in | 18:39 |
| ayoung | dolphm, even that is a general problem, we just solve it as an abstraction layer for the rest of openstack | 18:39 |
| dstanek | jamielennox: an SP is actually pretty easy too | 18:39 |
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| gyee | just use PKI tokens :-) | 18:39 |
| ayoung | well...ok you mean domain as an Openstack specific object, so yes you are right | 18:39 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: got it | 18:39 |
| dolphm | ayoung: yes, that's what i meant | 18:39 |
| dstanek | the hardest thing is dealing with shibboleth | 18:39 |
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| gyee | ain't kidding | 18:40 |
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| ayoung | dstanek, I am working on a POC with a different IdP right now | 18:40 |
| rodrigods | dstanek, not worried about implementing saml but regarding the whole security of such authenticator involves | 18:40 |
| ayoung | I've worked with both Ipsilon and Keycloak | 18:40 |
| rodrigods | gyee gave few examples | 18:40 |
| ayoung | and the mod_mellon part is being extracted by jdennis | 18:40 |
| samueldmq | #action dstanek to post a spec on SAML2 Middleware up to review | 18:40 |
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| gyee | rodrigods, PKI token are S/MIME doc essentially | 18:40 |
| dolphm | ayoung: extracted to where? | 18:40 |
| Wundrlnd | This has got to be the gayest nerd network tranny shit I have ever stumbled across I am going back to Dalnet where the pussy is. | 18:41 |
| gyee | S/MIME's being around since the beginning of time | 18:41 |
| * notmorgan doesn't have a strong opinion on this front. | 18:41 | |
| dstanek | bknudson: the other issue is that it's easy for me to crash shib and i wouldn't want domain admins to be able to do that | 18:41 |
| ayoung | there is registration code for mod_mellon to talk to Ipsilon as part of the ipsilon proejct, and he's done a standa lone for keycloak. | 18:41 |
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| ayoung | I'll link | 18:41 |
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| dstanek | rodrigods: is it any worse than what we already do? | 18:41 |
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| ayoung | https://github.com/jdennis/keycloak-httpd-client-install | 18:41 |
| dstanek | does anyone have an hardcore "this is stupid" or "i hate you" type of feedback? | 18:42 |
| dstanek | otherwise i'm just going to proceed | 18:42 |
| ayoung | nkinder, dstanek is proposing moving the SAML processing to a middleware inside of keystone | 18:42 |
| gyee | no, middleware is a great idea! | 18:42 |
| gyee | if we get it to cover the bases | 18:42 |
| ayoung | dstanek, I have a hard "please don't do it in keystone" feedback | 18:42 |
| jamielennox | dstanek: so first thing is i don't see any management urls, but i assume they are an easy problem after getting the authenticator to work | 18:42 |
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| rodrigods | the problem is to know the whole base upfront | 18:42 |
| ayoung | I don't think you are stupid and I don't hate you, dstanek | 18:42 |
| dstanek | i've started looking into shibboleth's dynamic federations, but it seems to be too complicated for actual use | 18:42 |
| rderose | dstanek: i think you should proceed, it can just be another option | 18:42 |
| rodrigods | gyee, ^ | 18:42 |
| notmorgan | just keep in mind python sucks at crypto work | 18:43 |
| dolphm | ayoung: do you object to the domain-admin use case for managing federations, or to the implementation? | 18:43 |
| samueldmq | so ayoung and dstanek (and others) please keep in the discussion in -keystone ? | 18:43 |
| jamielennox | dstanek: i've in the past said to implement it elsewhere and i know you've looked into it so if you really have to do it in middleware i'd prefer it to live upstream in keystone | 18:43 |
| ayoung | dolphm, implementation | 18:43 |
| dstanek | ayoung: not moving...this is all new stuff for a SP | 18:43 |
| notmorgan | well, likely will get better if we get some JIT added and/or asyncio+uvloop | 18:43 |
| samueldmq | it should have a general agreement so dstanek can proceed with the spec/implementation | 18:43 |
| samueldmq | we gotta move | 18:43 |
| notmorgan | but just keep that in mind. | 18:43 |
| samueldmq | #topic Performance testing patches up for review | 18:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Performance testing patches up for review (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:43 | |
| jamielennox | dstanek: but mostly i'd want to make sure this becomes something in contrib that people _can_ use, i don't think we should ever recommend it as the default | 18:43 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: o/ | 18:43 |
| dolphm | ayoung: i'm not clear on how an alternative implementation would satisfy the domain-admin-federation-manager use case, then | 18:44 |
| lbragstad | so performance has been coming up ... a lt | 18:44 |
| dstanek | jamielennox: ++ | 18:44 |
| lbragstad | lot* | 18:44 |
| ayoung | dolphm, I want a general solution to SSO. I want to have mod_mellon do exactly what dstanek is proposing anyway | 18:44 |
| dolphm | ayoung: or at least, i'm not clear on what that alternative should look like | 18:44 |
| notmorgan | samueldmq: can you timebox this at 10 min instead of 15 [for my last minute topic] | 18:44 |
| lbragstad | i wanted to try and get something written that would allow us to test performance the same way | 18:44 |
| lbragstad | that way we can get recreateable results | 18:44 |
| notmorgan | lbragstad: ++ and i like it | 18:44 |
| lbragstad | and hopefully tie it into reviews | 18:44 |
| lbragstad | with something like leaving commit | 18:44 |
| lbragstad | comment* | 18:44 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: sure, I will do that and leave your 5 mins at the end | 18:44 |
| rodrigods | lbragstad, nice | 18:44 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: you have 10 mins :) | 18:45 |
| lbragstad | like "recheck" but "check performance" | 18:45 |
| gyee | rodrigods, bases as in managing and validating relay states | 18:45 |
| ayoung | dolphm, so, accepting a new IdP is an operator level operation. Lets assume we can make it far more managable than shibboleth does today. jdennis 's tool is for that exact problem in keuycloak | 18:45 |
| notmorgan | lbragstad: 3rd party CI can trigger on any event | 18:45 |
| ayoung | and is based on the ipsilon approach | 18:45 |
| lbragstad | so I start contributing what i have to one of my own repos https://github.com/lbragstad/keystone-performance | 18:45 |
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| ayoung | the two really should be merged into a single tool that knows about multiple Idps, but the amount of Idp specific logic is high right now | 18:45 |
| lbragstad | ^ that will go through and set up keystone using openstack ansible | 18:45 |
| shaleh | dstanek: even if it goes no where official, the code is worth exploring. | 18:45 |
| ayoung | so...that is something that can be done by ansible fairly simply | 18:45 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: we need to continue on, this convo will need to continue in -keystone or on a spec | 18:45 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, ++ | 18:46 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: sorry. just keeping things moving. | 18:46 |
| shaleh | dstanek: maybe it gets folded into another project, maybe it becomes a project. Still of value. | 18:46 |
| jamielennox | lbragstad: so is this 3rd party or going to be on infra resources? | 18:46 |
| lbragstad | the performance tests are extremely basic but I wanted to throw it out there so that people can play wiht it | 18:46 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: ayoung ++ | 18:46 |
| jamielennox | lbragstad: also i think it's beneficial | 18:46 |
| lbragstad | jamielennox i might be able to get some bare metal resources | 18:46 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: it can't be in infra unless there is hardware dedicated to it. | 18:46 |
| henrynash_ | lbragstad: it’s a GREAT start | 18:46 |
| bknudson | lbragstad: this is going to be really useful | 18:46 |
| henrynash_ | lbragstad: and we really neeed this | 18:46 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: it needs to be consistent hardware that isn't affected by bad neighbor/different provider | 18:46 |
| bknudson | we'll likely wind up implementing something like this for our cloud, too. | 18:47 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: thanks for the initiative, and for sharing it | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | notmorgan: ++ | 18:47 |
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| gyee | are we talking about rally gate? | 18:47 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: or it needs to be run at least in consistent providers on consistent flavors | 18:47 |
| lbragstad | so please play wiht it, open bugs against the plays, etc.. | 18:47 |
| notmorgan | gyee: no. | 18:47 |
| bknudson | and hopefully we can share the tests, although every deployment is going to be different | 18:47 |
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| notmorgan | gyee: rally has failed to meet what lbragstad is proposing. | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | notmorgan: mostly i was just thinking it's a lot easier problem if we just consider it a 3rd party job | 18:47 |
| lbragstad | my next step is to write something that would kick of infra per patch | 18:47 |
| shaleh | lbragstad: thanks for sharing the work you have | 18:47 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: i would like this ot be 3rd party tbh | 18:47 |
| rodrigods | it needs dedicated hardware | 18:48 |
| lbragstad | yep | 18:48 |
| lbragstad | it is | 18:48 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: i am happy to ask -infra about taking it on, but right now they aren't (afaik) in aplace for supporting this | 18:48 |
| lbragstad | it's hosted on rackspace dedicated bare metal servers | 18:48 |
| rodrigods | it needs to run lots of times, to get "real world" reports | 18:48 |
| notmorgan | once infra-cloud is in a place it might be a topic worth considering with them. | 18:48 |
| amakarov | lbragstad, why not to use rally for that? The only issue - it uses devstack | 18:48 |
| lbragstad | exactly | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | notmorgan: no, i'm thinking 3rd party is good, particularly if we have hardware in rax and rax people to fix it | 18:49 |
| notmorgan | but there are lots of questions about running real bare-metal resources that i wouldn't want to lump on them until thye have a clear plan/story for it | 18:49 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: ++ | 18:49 |
| bknudson | if we can get rally to help out then we should take that | 18:49 |
| bknudson | but as it is our needs are pretty simple. | 18:49 |
| gyee | trouble with performance tests is really environment isolation and consistency | 18:49 |
| bknudson | not that hard to write a script to validate a token | 18:49 |
| gyee | something we can't do well with VMs | 18:49 |
| notmorgan | i'm fine with rally being used. i wont support it being a "rally" job | 18:49 |
| * topol trust me henrynash really needs this performance stuff :-) | 18:49 | |
| henrynash_ | topol: :-) | 18:49 |
| notmorgan | i support it being "use appropriate technology" behind the scenes, regardless of what it is | 18:50 |
| notmorgan | amakarov: ^ | 18:50 |
| jamielennox | lbragstad: have you got code somewhere for what will be run? | 18:50 |
| samueldmq | topol: henrynash_ :) | 18:50 |
| dolphm | gyee: hence, lbragstad is going straight to dedicated bare metal | 18:50 |
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| gyee | dolphm, no argument here | 18:50 |
| jamielennox | lbragstad: what scope do you expect? just token validate? | 18:50 |
| bknudson | jamielennox: https://github.com/lbragstad/keystone-performance/blob/master/validate.py | 18:50 |
| amakarov | notmorgan, why not? | 18:50 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: token issue, token validate | 18:50 |
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| notmorgan | amakarov: because it doesn't matter what tech is used. | 18:50 |
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| notmorgan | amakarov: i will be very against calling it a "rally gate" | 18:50 |
| notmorgan | amakarov: let the team decide what they'll use | 18:51 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: doh - thanks | 18:51 |
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| notmorgan | it can be rally. | 18:51 |
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| notmorgan | it can be something else | 18:51 |
| amakarov | notmorgan, understood | 18:51 |
| lbragstad | jamielennox it does authenticate 1000 times and valiate 1000 times | 18:51 |
| notmorgan | but if you lock it in as rally, i'm -2 | 18:51 |
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| samueldmq | notmorgan: ++ | 18:51 |
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| lbragstad | jamielennox https://github.com/lbragstad/keystone-performance | 18:51 |
| notmorgan | amakarov: and rally very well might be the right tool :) | 18:51 |
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| samueldmq | lbragstad: nice, so basically make people aware of the performance tests | 18:51 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: you done ? | 18:51 |
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| lbragstad | samueldmq yep | 18:51 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: thanks | 18:52 |
| notmorgan | lbragstad: make sure you get a proper 3rd party CI account | 18:52 |
| bknudson | so one thing that's going to be tricky is dealing with larger config changes... e.g., switch from uuid to fernet for example | 18:52 |
| lbragstad | all, ping me if you have questions | 18:52 |
| samueldmq | #topic Open Discussion | 18:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:52 | |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | lbragstad: and somewhere to push results to, for pretty graphs? | 18:52 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: o/ | 18:52 |
| notmorgan | ok | 18:52 |
| notmorgan | so | 18:52 |
| notmorgan | going to harp on review numbers again | 18:52 |
| dolphm | bknudson: i think the configuration that we use for testing needs to be "opinionated" for exactly that reason | 18:52 |
| dolphm | bknudson: testing sqlite is not useful, for example | 18:52 |
| notmorgan | #link http://paste.openstack.org/show/508737/ | 18:52 |
| gyee | so I am a bit concerned about this patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/309146/ | 18:52 |
| lbragstad | dolphm so OSA is what I chose but I'm open to other opinions | 18:52 |
| gyee | it will change the behavior of fernet tokens | 18:53 |
| notmorgan | there have been 59 business days or so since RC1 of mitaka | 18:53 |
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| notmorgan | it is not unreasonable that all cores should be at 1-review-per-business day (newton) | 18:53 |
| samueldmq | please let's focus on notmorgan's topic, just to keep moving :) | 18:53 |
| notmorgan | people are doing better. | 18:53 |
| notmorgan | but still calling to action - review. | 18:53 |
| notmorgan | i will be administratively abandoning old reviews with no movement very soon. | 18:54 |
| notmorgan | but please review. | 18:54 |
| gyee | sir yes sir | 18:54 |
| notmorgan | everyone should review. -1s, +1s, +0 all matters to us and helps | 18:54 |
| topol | yep. will do | 18:54 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: ++ | 18:54 |
| dolphm | #goteam | 18:55 |
| samueldmq | cores and non-cores are more than welcome to review | 18:55 |
| * dstanek hangs his head in shame | 18:55 | |
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| notmorgan | I've been working with steve to keep an eye for potential new cores as well | 18:55 |
| rodrigods | for non-cores, review is the best way to learn | 18:55 |
| shaleh | dstanek: can't code all day :-) | 18:55 |
| dstanek | shaleh: challenge accepted | 18:55 |
| * topol topol cant believe gyee reviewed more than he did.... | 18:55 | |
| notmorgan | also if you CANT remain core, or don't want to, you can step down and be fast-tracked back in if you have time again | 18:55 |
| dolphm | shaleh: what is the alternate universe you speak of | 18:55 |
| shaleh | dolphm: married life :-) | 18:55 |
| gyee | topol, the day ain't over yet | 18:56 |
| notmorgan | just keep it in mind that we want you to be able to contribute | 18:56 |
| notmorgan | and feel successful at it | 18:56 |
| notmorgan | reviews, code, etc | 18:56 |
| dstanek | shaleh: "sorry honey, but i really need to code right now." | 18:56 |
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| samueldmq | notmorgan: ++ | 18:56 |
| dolphm | memorize it! | 18:56 |
| notmorgan | what ever makes it easiest for you to succeed. | 18:57 |
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| samueldmq | #action everyone to review/contribute code! | 18:57 |
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| notmorgan | core, non-core, etc, that is what we (core team, PTL, etc) is for. | 18:57 |
| notmorgan | heck even bug triage | 18:57 |
| gyee | dolphm, its MEMOIZE | 18:57 |
| notmorgan | s/heck even/also | 18:57 |
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| samueldmq | notmorgan: keystone says: challenge accepted! | 18:58 |
| notmorgan | i'm using stackalytics Newton cycle | 18:58 |
| notmorgan | and http://www.timeanddate.com/date/workdays.html to figure out the number of "business days" | 18:58 |
| amakarov | gyee, memoize also innvolves "invalidate" and "expire" :) | 18:58 |
| gyee | there will be a draw at the end of the cycle for a free trip to barcelona | 18:58 |
| gyee | drawing | 18:58 |
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| notmorgan | usually it's not quantity over quality, but when the numbers are this low... quantity matters too :) | 18:58 |
| rodrigods | brazil has far less working days fwiw :) | 18:58 |
| rodrigods | lots of holidays | 18:59 |
| samueldmq | so, we're running out of time | 18:59 |
| notmorgan | rodrigods: still 59 reviews since March 16th isn't unreasonable :P | 18:59 |
| shaleh | rodrigods: even more time for review then :-) | 18:59 |
| samueldmq | thanks everyone, it was a pleasure to ru nthis meeting :) | 18:59 |
| notmorgan | rodrigods: in newton | 18:59 |
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| bknudson | don't forget to vote. | 18:59 |
| notmorgan | (across all keystone repos) | 18:59 |
| topol | good job samuelmdq | 18:59 |
| samueldmq | #endmeeting | 18:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:59 | |
| * notmorgan is done | 18:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 7 18:59:33 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:59 |
| shaleh | bknudson: ++ | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-06-07-18.01.html | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-06-07-18.01.txt | 18:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-06-07-18.01.log.html | 18:59 |
| samueldmq | thanks | 18:59 |
| rderose | samueldmq: nice job :) | 18:59 |
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| prometheanfire | :D | 18:59 |
| samueldmq | fungi: infra folks: floor is yours | 18:59 |
| fungi | thanks! | 19:00 |
| prometheanfire | ianw: you here for this? | 19:00 |
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| fungi | infra team, resemble! | 19:00 |
| ianw | prometheanfire: yes | 19:00 |
| Zara | \o/ | 19:00 |
| yolanda | o/ | 19:00 |
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| mmedvede | o/ | 19:00 |
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| pleia2 | o/ | 19:00 |
| jeblair | howdy | 19:00 |
| SotK | o/ | 19:00 |
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| notmorgan | fungi: hey i resemble that remark | 19:00 |
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| fungi | excellent! | 19:01 |
| bkero | o/ | 19:01 |
| Shrews | o/ | 19:01 |
| olaph | o/ | 19:01 |
| stajkowski | o/ | 19:01 |
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| docaedo | o/ | 19:01 |
| hashar | o¡ | 19:01 |
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| hashar | (merely lurking) | 19:01 |
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| cbader | o/ | 19:02 |
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| fungi | today's topics are brought to you by pleia2, mtreinish, pabelanger, Zara, and the letter 3 | 19:03 |
| prometheanfire | o/ | 19:03 |
| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 7 19:03:45 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:03 |
| anteaya | the letter 3 again | 19:03 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:03 |
| mtreinish | fungi: ? | 19:03 |
| anteaya | when does the number 3 get a turn | 19:04 |
| fungi | anteaya: i'm unoriginal | 19:04 |
| mtreinish | oh, I did put something on the agenda last week | 19:04 |
| mtreinish | I forgot | 19:04 |
| fungi | mtreinish: excellent, someone else with an even worse memory than mine! ;) | 19:04 |
| fungi | #topic Announcements | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
| fungi | #info Tentative late-cycle joint Infra/QA get together to be held September 19-21 (CW38) in at SAP offices in Walldorf, DE | 19:04 |
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| fungi | check with mkoderer and oomichi for details | 19:04 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/QAInfraNewtonSprint | 19:04 |
| fungi | also we did a couple project renames last week. i screwed one of them up by turning puppet back on a few minutes early | 19:05 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:05 |
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| fungi | there is now a dead "openstack-infra/ansible-puppet" repo with just a readme in it, in read-only mode. we can safely purge that from disk before the next gerrit reindex | 19:05 |
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| pabelanger | o/ | 19:05 |
| * AJaeger apolizies for beeing late | 19:06 | |
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| * fungi hangs head in shame | 19:06 | |
| fungi | moving on | 19:06 |
| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:06 | |
| fungi | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-31-19.03.html | 19:06 |
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| fungi | pleia2 set up filtering to direct provider account contact address(es) into a high priority inbox | 19:06 |
| fungi | i saw that happened! | 19:06 |
| pleia2 | so, filtering! | 19:06 |
| fungi | filtering!!! | 19:06 |
| pleia2 | I went ahead and filed a ton of old mail too | 19:06 |
| * fungi us using up his exclamation mark quota for the month) | 19:06 | |
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| zaro | o/ | 19:06 |
| notmorgan | fungi: uhm. they have a quota for that? :( | 19:07 |
| pleia2 | so it should be in the proper place, not everything is in filtering rules though since some companies send from multiple addresses and domains | 19:07 |
| * bkero lets fungi borrow some of his exclamation mark quota. He's clearly making better use of them. | 19:07 | |
| pleia2 | I figure I'll log in and tweak over time, the work I did last week was a massive first pass over 25k messages | 19:07 |
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| pleia2 | do we have imap or pop access to this? | 19:08 |
| anteaya | pleia2: thank you for this | 19:08 |
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| fungi | supposedly imap works | 19:08 |
| pleia2 | I couldn't find docs for it through their help menus, so I wasn't sure | 19:08 |
| fungi | i think it might be the same thing that i use to read my jeremy@openstack.org address, so sync up with me after the meeting and we'll see if similar parameters work | 19:09 |
| pleia2 | but I think the next step is figuring out how we stay on top of this email, logging in all the time is not something I can really do, but I could drop it in my imap client where I monitor other addresses | 19:09 |
| pleia2 | fungi: cool, thanks | 19:09 |
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| fungi | yeah, same, if it works over imap and there's a high=priority inbox then i'll just check it from mutt as continuously as my other addresses | 19:09 |
| fungi | er, high-priority | 19:10 |
| * pleia2 nods | 19:10 | |
| fungi | fungi start an ml thread revisiting current priority efforts list | 19:10 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-June/004374.html | 19:10 |
| fungi | follow up to that and i'll provide a specs update once we come to some stasis there | 19:10 |
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| fungi | hopefully should have somthing up for approval in next week's meeting | 19:10 |
| Zalman{-} | evening, people this is british server? | 19:10 |
| pleia2 | anyone interested can see how I filtered and we can adjust accordingly | 19:10 |
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| fungi | #topic Specs approval | 19:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:10 | |
| fungi | #info Approved spec "A Task Tracker for OpenStack" | 19:11 |
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| fungi | #link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/task-tracker.html | 19:11 |
| fungi | (and there was much rejoicing) | 19:11 |
| pleia2 | \o/ | 19:11 |
| anteaya | #link small edit https://review.openstack.org/#/c/326680/ | 19:11 |
| anteaya | and yay! | 19:11 |
| Zara | \o/ | 19:12 |
| fungi | anteaya: oh, lgtm. approving | 19:12 |
| anteaya | thanks, it works locally | 19:12 |
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| fungi | should merge shortly | 19:13 |
| anteaya | thank you | 19:13 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts | 19:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:13 | |
| fungi | i don't see any urgent updates there, but we've got some updates filtering in on the aforementioned ml thread | 19:14 |
| fungi | also rcarrillocruz mentioned that hpe is moving our infra-cloud hardware again in ~4-6 weeks to a less damp facility | 19:14 |
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| Zara | :D | 19:14 |
| pabelanger | Did we decided if we wanted to try used the hardware today anyways? | 19:14 |
| yolanda | :( | 19:14 |
| pabelanger | /used/using | 19:15 |
| pleia2 | I miss our weekly updates | 19:15 |
| fungi | i'll leave it up to rcarrillocruz and anyone else currently wrangling the hardware to determine if that's feasible | 19:15 |
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| fungi | pleia2: yep, as soon as we get the priority list pruned and updated i'd like to start doing them again, or at least collecting incremental updates | 19:15 |
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| fungi | or you just mean you miss the updates on infra-cloud? | 19:16 |
| anteaya | jeblair also made a point that perhaps we could entertain the idea of another hardware provider | 19:16 |
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| pabelanger | anteaya: ++ | 19:16 |
| pleia2 | fungi: infra-cloud, the ones cody was doing | 19:16 |
| jeblair | yeah, at this point, if someone else offers hardware (or we still have folks interested waiting in the wings), i think that would be a good idea | 19:16 |
| anteaya | s/another/a different | 19:16 |
| fungi | yeah, there is at least one company who has reached out to us about the logistics of providing hardware/colocation | 19:16 |
| jeblair | we're 6 months behind on this, mostly due to hp logistical issues | 19:16 |
| fungi | i can get people involved in a discussion with them as long as i get some volunteers to steer that | 19:17 |
| pabelanger | I'm happy to get more involved where ever needed | 19:17 |
| * bkero willing to help out any way he can | 19:17 | |
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| fungi | ideally at least one person currently involved in the infra-cloud effort too, so that we can get some continuity on the effort | 19:18 |
| yolanda | i can collaborate, and give advice, but cannot compromise on that at the moment | 19:18 |
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| fungi | thanks yolanda | 19:18 |
| yolanda | i need to figure how much time could i dedicate | 19:18 |
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| pabelanger | yolanda: I'm free whenever you find the time | 19:19 |
| fungi | also no idea if rcarrillocruz is interested in helping with a separate provider, but he said he's missing the meeting today and will catch up afterward | 19:19 |
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| fungi | so should probably continue this discussion outside the meeting | 19:19 |
| yolanda | pabelanger, we can schedule some time and i give you an overview | 19:19 |
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| pabelanger | yolanda: ack | 19:20 |
| fungi | #topic Timeline for first Xenial systems (pleia2) | 19:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Timeline for first Xenial systems (pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:20 | |
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| pleia2 | so, this came up because planet.o.o is a bit stuck with a broken package in trusty, the idea was floated to switch to pulling it from source | 19:20 |
| fungi | looks like there are a few drivers for having at least some preliminary use of xenial for our servers | 19:20 |
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| pleia2 | and can't upgrade zanata until it's on xenial, and the i18n team is eager for the new features that the zanata folks put in for us | 19:21 |
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| pleia2 | so this topic is mostly to get a feel for our priority for moving to xenial on some systems | 19:21 |
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| pleia2 | I'd rather not rewrite our planet module if it'll be fixed by an upgrade in a month, but if we aren't planning to go to xenial for 6 months, that's a very different story (and something I need to talk to the i18n folks about) | 19:22 |
| fungi | my recollection from the discussions befpre and at the summit was that we weren't going to push to upgrade all our trusty systems to xenial until next year, but that running xenial where it makes sense to do so is acceptable | 19:22 |
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| pleia2 | yeah, that makes sense, just trying to pin down when we should aim for the first xenial systems | 19:23 |
| pabelanger | We still have some servers running precise, I'm trying to focus on upgrading them before moving into xenial. But happy to review code | 19:23 |
| fungi | these all sound like cases where running xenial is at least no worse than trying to make things work on trusty | 19:23 |
| fungi | we did also say we'd avoid deploying new xenial systems until we finished precise to trusty upgrades | 19:24 |
| pleia2 | zanata could probably run on trusty if we grab java from a 3rd party repo, but that does not give me good feels :) | 19:24 |
| fungi | we can likely knock out zuul and static pretty easily, but wiki is going to be a pretty involved upgrade due to its lack of configuration management | 19:24 |
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| pleia2 | yeah, the wiki is hard | 19:24 |
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| pabelanger | wiki is last item on my list | 19:25 |
| pabelanger | I've been pusing it to the end on purpose because of the amount of work | 19:25 |
| * pleia2 nods | 19:25 | |
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| pabelanger | with that said, if we want xenail first, I'm happy to skip wiki for the moment | 19:26 |
| fungi | i was talking about it earlier today in #-infra, but we really need some clear cut plan on how to maintain it. i did a little research on whether we could run it from distro packages, and what the state is for the puppet modules in the forge, but ultimately i want whoever's going to be working on the uprgade to decide what's the most maintainable long term | 19:26 |
| pabelanger | Is the wiki long term now? | 19:26 |
| fungi | not necessarily long term, but long enough term to get us a graceful exodus | 19:27 |
| pleia2 | btw, mediawiki is being removed from debian and that's where ubuntu gets it from | 19:27 |
| fungi | which i think involves having it maintainable in the long term (regardless of whether we opt to actually maintain it indefinitely) | 19:27 |
| fungi | pleia2: not "being removed" but removed more than a year ago | 19:27 |
| pabelanger | Right, I'm hoping 12 more months honestly of keeping wiki.o.o online | 19:27 |
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| fungi | pleia2: i also looked into rpms, and the packaging situation is even less fun there | 19:28 |
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| pleia2 | aha | 19:28 |
| fungi | everyone these days seems to be installing from source | 19:28 |
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| pleia2 | yeah | 19:28 |
| fungi | anyway, this is getting off onto a tangent | 19:28 |
| pabelanger | maybe we need to revisit moving away from mediawiki to something else? Not that I want to talk about it now | 19:29 |
| pabelanger | fungi: ++ | 19:29 |
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| pleia2 | loosely speaking, do we think we can aim for having our first xenial systems available in a month? | 19:29 |
| pleia2 | I can start working on fixes we need in puppet | 19:29 |
| fungi | to tie that subtopic up, i'd love to have a very short spec describing a plan to get the wiki into configuration management and upgraded so that it can go onto the priority specs list | 19:29 |
| fungi | thanks pleia2. any additional help there is appreciated | 19:29 |
| pabelanger | I'd like to stand up our xenial wheel mirror first, if possible. Assuming rackspace has the image uploaded | 19:30 |
| pleia2 | I'd like to have a new zanata server up for translations this cycle, which means having it ready for testing by august at the latest | 19:30 |
| fungi | pleia2: yeah, that sounds reaosnable | 19:30 |
| pleia2 | ok, great | 19:30 |
| fungi | anybody object to having a xenial server or two in our corral in ~ a month? | 19:30 |
| anteaya | I do not object | 19:31 |
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| anteaya | and I agree with fungi's call for a spec for the wiki | 19:31 |
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| fungi | being able to meet the i18n team's needs, being able to get planet sanely off of precise, et cetera trump the risks of running a couple xenial servers "early" for me at least | 19:31 |
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| fungi | #topic Setup a common message bus using mqtt (mtreinish) | 19:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Setup a common message bus using mqtt (mtreinish) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:32 | |
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| fungi | that topic you forgot to remember | 19:32 |
| pleia2 | I can start drafting up the wiki spec (and pabelanger or anyone else is welcome to push changes to it as we go) | 19:32 |
| fungi | thanks pleia2! | 19:32 |
| pabelanger | pleia2: thanks | 19:32 |
| mtreinish | fungi: well I did remember to put it on the wiki | 19:33 |
| anteaya | mtreinish: yay! | 19:33 |
| mtreinish | that counts for something :) | 19:33 |
| fungi | mtreinish and i were discussing his gerrit to mqtt event translation and sdague's one-stream-to-rule-them-all vision | 19:33 |
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| fungi | the idea here is that mtreinish and i would co-author a spec to add something like a firehose.openstack.org server with an mqtt view of everything in our infrastructure, adding gerrit's event stream as the first feature | 19:34 |
| pleia2 | cool | 19:34 |
| * mtreinish really likes that hostname | 19:34 | |
| fungi | something similar to the fedora community infrastructure's fedmsg, but not zeromq | 19:34 |
| jeblair | ++ and ++ | 19:35 |
| anteaya | sounds good | 19:35 |
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| pleia2 | I don't know anything about mqtt and don't want to derail, but I will mention that the Fedora Infra team uses http://www.fedmsg.com/en/latest/overview/ very similiarly | 19:35 |
| fungi | this was just a quick sync up in the meeting to see if that's a completely insane idea and we should pack it in and pretend it never came up | 19:35 |
| pleia2 | there's an instance of it running in debian infra as well | 19:35 |
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| fungi | yeah, i expect that the mechanics of getting arbitrary system events into mqtt are pretty similar to zeromq, so we can probably borrow a lot from fedora infra and dsa for those | 19:37 |
| jeblair | i think it's a swell idea -- one thing i would like to caution though is that i think some of the things that we are using message buses for today we can and probably should use zuul for in zuulv3 | 19:37 |
| fungi | jeblair: you mean as far as what nodepool is consuming from jenkins? | 19:37 |
| notmorgan | jeblair: ++ | 19:37 |
| fungi | (and also what nodepool is consuming from zuul as of this week) | 19:38 |
| fungi | what other message busses are we using? | 19:38 |
| jeblair | fungi: well, that specific case is not applicable in v3. i was thinking more along the lines of some of the post-processing things we do might be better implemented as zuul jobs in v3 | 19:38 |
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| mtreinish | jeblair: oh like the logstash and subunit processing? | 19:39 |
| fungi | oh, sure, i would mostly see teh firehose as a third-party/personal point of integration | 19:39 |
| mtreinish | fungi: we do use zeromq for that path. Jenkins -> zmq -> gearman client -> gearman -> gearman worker | 19:40 |
| jeblair | yeah. i don't have that all mapped out yet. *maybe* it's best as an independent queue, or maybe it fits in to zuulv3. mostly i mention that as something to keep in mind as we start thinking about how we can use it | 19:40 |
| fungi | i'm unconvinced we should drive any internal infrastructure off of it, at least initially, and even then only if it makes sense to do so | 19:40 |
| anteaya | ++ swell idea | 19:40 |
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| mtreinish | fungi: yeah that was my thinking too, set it up for external use initially, but it might make sense eventually to start using it for internals too | 19:40 |
| jeblair | fungi: that seems like a good way to start -- get to know it before we start depending on it | 19:40 |
| fungi | so teh spec definitely wouldn't go into using it for anything other than experimentation | 19:41 |
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| fungi | but having it might help us drive some additional innovation from outside into the team | 19:41 |
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| fungi | as people see a consistent place to access some of the currently internalized events | 19:42 |
| fungi | anyway, i think that more or less covers it. we still have a couple topics to go today... | 19:42 |
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| fungi | #topic zuul.o.o / static.o.o migration to ubuntu-trusty: Outage required (pabelanger) | 19:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "zuul.o.o / static.o.o migration to ubuntu-trusty: Outage required (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:42 | |
| fungi | so, wanting to work out a maintenance window for these? | 19:42 |
| pabelanger | Yup | 19:43 |
| pabelanger | I think we need about 1-2 hours to be safe | 19:43 |
| pabelanger | I was thinking if we stopped gerrit, we should be safe to stop zuul and detach / attach volumes on static.o.o | 19:43 |
| fungi | yeah, i could _probably knock static.o.o out in 15 minutes if all goes smoothly, but wouldn't want to bank on that | 19:43 |
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| fungi | so 2 hours seems like a safe estimate | 19:43 |
| jeblair | zuul should be pretty fast too. very little state. | 19:44 |
| fungi | my schedule is wide open, and i'm happy to help with it | 19:44 |
| fungi | in zuul's favor, we also have zuul-dev successfully running on trusty now | 19:44 |
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| fungi | so shouldn't run into unexpected puppet issues | 19:44 |
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| rcarrillocruz | heya | 19:44 |
| jeblair | and i think the only critical firewall involved is *on* the zuul host | 19:44 |
| rcarrillocruz | i'm around | 19:45 |
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| pabelanger | Yup, I think we can do it pretty quick | 19:45 |
| anteaya | whoever wants to drive this please suggest a date | 19:45 |
| rcarrillocruz | wootz, quite a bit of notifications | 19:45 |
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| pabelanger | just need to decide how much heads up to give the community | 19:45 |
| pabelanger | too early / late to do it this friday? | 19:45 |
| anteaya | friday is fine for me | 19:45 |
| fungi | i'm free this friday, but for a two-hour projected outage i'd be hesitant to announce it on such short notice | 19:46 |
| anteaya | nothing of note this friday in the release schedule: http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 19:46 |
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| pabelanger | okay, happy to defer to fungi for the right day | 19:46 |
| fungi | you beat me to linking it | 19:46 |
| fungi | #link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 19:46 |
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| anteaya | yay I beat fungi | 19:46 |
| anteaya | that never happens | 19:47 |
| fungi | if we do next week, that's the n2 milestone week | 19:47 |
| anteaya | fungi: June 17 | 19:47 |
| anteaya | fungi: you are looking at July | 19:47 |
| fungi | indeed, i am | 19:47 |
| fungi | le sigh | 19:47 |
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| jeblair | let's do it before then :) | 19:48 |
| fungi | so trove specs proposals deadline is the most exciting thing happening next week | 19:48 |
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| fungi | yeah, i'm happy to help, and i'm available friday, june 17 | 19:48 |
| pabelanger | okay, lets aim for that | 19:48 |
| pabelanger | I'll get something into pastebin to review | 19:49 |
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| pabelanger | then send out the email to ML | 19:49 |
| fungi | pabelanger: thanks! | 19:49 |
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| fungi | anything more to discuss on that? | 19:49 |
| pabelanger | I think we are good | 19:49 |
| fungi | #topic task-tracker migration-- load testing storyboard using storyboard-dev, and gerrit integration (Zara) | 19:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "task-tracker migration-- load testing storyboard using storyboard-dev, and gerrit integration (Zara) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:50 | |
| pleia2 | exciting :) | 19:50 |
| Zara | hi! :) I squooshed two things together... | 19:50 |
| fungi | Zara: i assume this is stemming from last week's question about maybe setting up the storyboard plugin on review-dev and pointing it at storyboard-dev? | 19:50 |
| fungi | oh, or maybe not? ;) | 19:50 |
| Zara | ah, sorry, it was actually a bit different but it stemmed from there | 19:51 |
| anteaya | fungi: that is the second part of this two part topic | 19:51 |
| fungi | you have the floor! | 19:51 |
| Zara | the first thing is more general: if we're expecting lots of new users, we should check storyboard works to scale... | 19:51 |
| Zara | what's the best way to do that? | 19:51 |
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| fungi | we've done some pretty minimal load testing of services in the past | 19:52 |
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| fungi | i think clarkb found a took to load-test etherpad for example and we tried out pointing it at etherpad-dev | 19:52 |
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| fungi | the openstackid devs did some load testing of authentication for their summit app pointed at openstackid-dev | 19:53 |
| fungi | et cetera | 19:53 |
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| fungi | so it's generally been custom/ad-hoc whitebox solutions (based on some internal knowledge of the application and expected usage patterns) | 19:53 |
| Zara | ah, okay | 19:53 |
| Zara | I think it also depends on the expected pace of migration | 19:54 |
| Zara | for how heavy a load we need to have tested at any time | 19:54 |
| fungi | i'm also perfectly happy to address nonobvious scaling challenges as we come across them rather than spend development rime prematurely optimizing for things we don't know will actually be an issue | 19:55 |
| fungi | s/rime/time/ | 19:55 |
| anteaya | okay that helps, thank you | 19:55 |
| anteaya | that was the prime dev concern when I asked are we ready for the masses | 19:56 |
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| anteaya | Zara: are you ready to move to the second bit on the topic? | 19:56 |
| fungi | storyboard already has some pretty aggressive/challenging features on its roadmap, and so unnecessarily taxing the devs with scalability testing seems like an undue burden | 19:56 |
| anteaya | fungi: thank you | 19:57 |
| anteaya | and yes agreed | 19:57 |
| Zara | okay, I was the one who was worried about it, but I'm fine if other people are willing to share that down the line :) | 19:57 |
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| fungi | note we're running out of meeting time if there's a part 2 | 19:57 |
| * SotK too | 19:57 | |
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| Zara | so the other thing was that I was tasked with gerrit integration, right now I have a big review backlog and so on, and it's unlikely to make fast progress while I'm on it | 19:58 |
| fungi | (2 minutes remaining) | 19:58 |
| anteaya | Zara: well I think we are asking if someone can help with adding the storyboard gerrit plugin to the review-dev server | 19:58 |
| anteaya | at least that was what I was asking ofr | 19:58 |
| anteaya | for | 19:58 |
| anteaya | and also to squeeze it in we have a StoryBoard bug sprint coming up: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/VirtualSprints#StoryBoard_Bug_Sprint | 19:59 |
| fungi | zaro seems like an obvious choice as he has knowledge of the puppet module, root access to the review-dev server and is the author of that gerrit plugin | 19:59 |
| Zara | ah, related, was going to say: if someone wants it right away, someone else needs to prod about it and push for that sort of thing | 19:59 |
| fungi | but i don't know what his availability is | 19:59 |
| anteaya | so hopefully we can onboard some new storyboard developers who are willing to help with bugs | 19:59 |
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| fungi | okay, duly noted | 19:59 |
| fungi | and with that, we're at time | 19:59 |
| anteaya | thank you | 20:00 |
| fungi | thanks everyone! | 20:00 |
| zaro | i can help but will need to wait for a little bit | 20:00 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 7 20:00:11 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-07-19.03.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-07-19.03.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-07-19.03.log.html | 20:00 |
| ttx | o/ | 20:00 |
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| sdague | o/ | 20:00 |
| * fungi more or less ended on time this week | 20:00 | |
| thingee | o/ | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:00 |
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| * dhellmann may drop off of this hotspot at some point | 20:00 | |
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| ttx | annegentle, dims, flaper87, johnthetubaguy, mestery, mtreinish, mordred, morgan, russellb : around ? | 20:00 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:00 |
| annegentle | o/ | 20:00 |
| * mestery buckles in | 20:00 | |
| notmyname | dhellmann: ok. probably nothing contentious to be discussed ;-) | 20:00 |
| mordred | also may drop off this hotspot at any time | 20:01 |
| * edleafe hides in the back | 20:01 | |
| mordred | is on a train | 20:01 |
| dims | oh dear! :) | 20:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 7 20:01:08 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:01 |
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| mtreinish | o/ | 20:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | alright... | 20:01 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today is: | 20:01 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:01 |
| ttx | #topic Call out GPL style licenses in testing/validation. | 20:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Call out GPL style licenses in testing/validation. (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
| * Rockyg is petting a sweet cat that slinked in through the back | 20:01 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/293140 | 20:01 |
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| ttx | Feels like everyone is in agreement here, so unless someone yells, I'll just approve this one | 20:02 |
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| ttx | no yelling | 20:02 |
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| ttx | approved then | 20:02 |
| ttx | #topic Remove Cue project team | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Remove Cue project team (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/324412 | 20:03 |
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| ttx | This one is about delivering on a promise some of us made of cleaning up the tent when a project just doesn't deliver on the expectations | 20:03 |
| ttx | Especially when a project does not process reviews anymore, or doesn't release anymore, or doesn't addess vulnerabilities anymore, or doesn't participate to events anymore, or doesn't hold meetings / discuss on ML anymore | 20:03 |
| ttx | Cue is a bit of a low-hanging fruit there, since they don't really have recent activity, missed the Mitaka release, missed the Austin Design Summit, and no recent meeting or ML discussion | 20:03 |
| mtreinish | ttx: I'm just curious is there an activity requirement for projects written down anywhere? | 20:04 |
| ttx | So I personally think they fell below the bar of activity that is expected of official OpenStack projects | 20:04 |
| thingee | mtreinish: no | 20:04 |
| dhellmann | I'm glad to see us taking these one at a time | 20:04 |
| thingee | case by case | 20:04 |
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| ttx | mtreinish: actually there is | 20:04 |
| mordred | has anyone pinged vipul about it? | 20:04 |
| dhellmann | the release model tags specify release activity | 20:04 |
| ttx | but there is no metric, we are just asking that a project is active before we can vet it | 20:04 |
| mugsie | mordred: I pinged min | 20:04 |
| annegentle | ttx: yeah I was going to ask the same, is there a list or measure? | 20:04 |
| mugsie | (the new ptl) | 20:05 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 20:05 |
| mordred | mugsie: ah - cool. | 20:05 |
| ttx | min was CCed on the review | 20:05 |
| mtreinish | ttx: it'd be nice if we had something we could point to in the commit msg | 20:05 |
| ttx | I think it's a case of a single-vendor project where the single vendor lost most of its interest | 20:05 |
| mestery | ttx: Sounds about right | 20:06 |
| mtreinish | because from my pov not every project is going to be super active all the time | 20:06 |
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| dtroyer | ttx ++ and a highlight of the dangers of low diversity | 20:06 |
| sdague | diversity:danger | 20:06 |
| mtreinish | ttx: but in this case I agree with the single vendor losing interest | 20:06 |
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| mtreinish | I'm thinking more for the future | 20:06 |
| thingee | mtreinish: missing releases is pretty bad | 20:06 |
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| annegentle | I think we have good input since Min answered, but did wonder about "who's next" | 20:06 |
| ttx | mtreinish: missing the release, the summit, the IRC meetings and no ML discussion is pretty much clear cut to me | 20:06 |
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| sdague | yeh, it seems pretty straight forward | 20:07 |
| ttx | I mean, they can totally be back if they pick it up | 20:07 |
| mestery | ttx: Seems about right to me too | 20:07 |
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| thingee | annegentle: not our problem of who is next. it's retired and someone can revive. | 20:07 |
| ttx | but fact is, they have not the level of activity that is expected of openstack projects at this point | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | thingee : we very well may end up with oslo libraries stable enough to not need a release in a given cycle, so it's not out of the question | 20:07 |
| edleafe | Making it easier for projects to come in should also make it easier for them to go out | 20:07 |
| ttx | dhellmann: yes, in that case it's more of a combination of things | 20:08 |
| dtroyer | edleafe: ++ | 20:08 |
| ttx | the project also happens to be not mature | 20:08 |
| mestery | edleafe: ++ | 20:08 |
| ttx | edleafe: exactly | 20:08 |
| mordred | edleafe: ++ | 20:08 |
| thingee | dhellmann: as it stands, cue is part of the release, and they failed at that. That's fine for future cases that maybe out of the process. | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | ttx: right, that's why I don't think we want too many hard-and-fast rules | 20:08 |
| sdague | dhellmann: but the whole oslo project isn't going to dry up | 20:08 |
| ttx | greasing the door goes both ways | 20:08 |
| sdague | dhellmann: agreed | 20:08 |
| dims | ttx +1 | 20:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: stability is a good point, when we come to making the rules | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | thingee : sure, I support removing them, I was just pointing out that we can't make "you didn't release" a firm rule that automatically drops a project | 20:08 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: ttx: ok so rules/lists/metrics won't really work | 20:08 |
| sdague | I also think there is a difference, because oslo libs in some levels are like subtrees in a lot of other projects | 20:08 |
| annegentle | case by case then | 20:08 |
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| edleafe | another way to look at it: if they applied today for the big tent, would we feel that they measure up? | 20:09 |
| sdague | fortunately we've got 13 elected representative humans that have human judgement | 20:09 |
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| dhellmann | sdague : ++ | 20:09 |
| ttx | annegentle: yes. My rule of thumb for the start is... having a tc member who cares enough to propose the removal | 20:09 |
| dims | ++ sdague | 20:09 |
| edleafe | sdague: yes! | 20:09 |
| thingee | dhellmann: I'm confused by your "we very well may end up..." ... makes it sounds like this is not happen, so it's not really relevant right now? | 20:09 |
| mestery | sdague: yes! | 20:09 |
| sdague | I think coming up with an algorithm instead of just "representative humans" is the wrong thing to do | 20:09 |
| ttx | It's not "you miss a release, you're out" | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | thingee : it is not sufficient for me to say that because a project did not release, they must be removed from openstack. I gave an example of where that would be OK. | 20:10 |
| thingee | dhellmann: that's not what we're saying | 20:10 |
| ttx | It's just one symptom amongst others | 20:10 |
| thingee | dhellmann: that is just one of the things | 20:10 |
| mtreinish | ttx: that's all I wanted to clarify. Because the commit msg could be read that way | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | ok. that was the one I caught as it went past | 20:10 |
| ttx | mtreinish: oh, yes, there is no rule we are following here | 20:11 |
| dims | we are not talking about archiving. just remove from governance. so easy +1 for removal | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | yes, in this case the project appears extremely inactive, as demonstrated by the many points raised. as long as we're all clear that no one of those points is sufficient on its own, I'm happy. | 20:11 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: it's all still human judgement | 20:12 |
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| dhellmann | ok, good | 20:12 |
| ttx | agreed | 20:12 |
| sdague | I think that's our algorithm | 20:12 |
| sdague | a TC vote | 20:12 |
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| ttx | just a pile of symptoms and a gut call | 20:12 |
| sdague | yes | 20:12 |
| ttx | That case was arguably easy | 20:12 |
| ttx | which is why I posted it first | 20:12 |
| thingee | dims: you can bring something out of archive. Just like you can bring something out of retirement. | 20:12 |
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| ttx | ok, looks like we have majority there | 20:12 |
| notmorgan | ttx: can we swap the next two topics (before we swap) | 20:13 |
| dims | thingee true | 20:13 |
| fungi | also, unlike int the beforetime, we can take a project out of openstack without having to rename its git repos | 20:13 |
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| notmorgan | ttx: the url entry should be less contentous/take less time. | 20:13 |
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| ttx | notmorgan: sure | 20:13 |
| flaper87 | notmorgan: ++ | 20:13 |
| annegentle | yeah sounds good to swap | 20:13 |
| dims | fungi : was thinking about http://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/drivers.html#retiring-a-project steps | 20:14 |
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| ttx | ok, so, I'll approve it now | 20:14 |
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| ttx | approved | 20:14 |
| ttx | #topic Adds a contributordocs: URL entry to projects.yaml | 20:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Adds a contributordocs: URL entry to projects.yaml (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:15 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/316396 | 20:15 |
| ttx | This is still in progress work, Anne do you have all you need to make progress ? | 20:15 |
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| annegentle | as I said in the review, it's a draft. | 20:15 |
| notmorgan | i'm generally for this, needs a little cleanup though. | 20:15 |
| mestery | yes | 20:15 |
| notmorgan | but it's def. going the right way | 20:15 |
| mestery | One tag removal in there | 20:15 |
| mestery | notmorgan: ++ | 20:15 |
| annegentle | mestery: yes nice catch | 20:15 |
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| mestery | annegentle: nice work though! | 20:15 |
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| annegentle | I'd like to figure out how to deal with projects with multiple repos with docs? | 20:15 |
| mtreinish | annegentle: yeah, that's what I was just gonna ask | 20:16 |
| notmorgan | annegentle: make it a list? | 20:16 |
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| annegentle | would it be better to put a docs: line for each repo? | 20:16 |
| mtreinish | because things like qa and infra have lots of very different projects | 20:16 |
| notmorgan | annegentle: hm. probably per-repo | 20:16 |
| annegentle | someone tell me YAML solutions here :) | 20:16 |
| dims | annegentle : where are we going to render/use this info? | 20:16 |
| flaper87 | annegentle: haven't read the latest PS but, did you find a way to avoid adding the repos with `None` urls ? | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : or per deliverable | 20:16 |
| amrith | annegentle, could it be as simple as a link to a page with that list of docs? is there value in having all the links in the infra project? | 20:16 |
| notmorgan | dhellmann: ++ | 20:16 |
| flaper87 | that said, I'm certainly in favor of this | 20:16 |
| notmorgan | dhellmann: yeah per deliverable would be my vote | 20:16 |
| annegentle | flaper87: I think I can leave the line blank instead of None, but I sorta used None to indicate "I'd expect something here" | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | annegentle: you can, but None is fine as well. | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | i like the explicits | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : does the yaml parser turn "None" into a None value? | 20:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | +1 for adding None explicitly, its kinda nice | 20:17 |
| annegentle | amrith: not sufficient if I want to expand beyond contributor docs | 20:17 |
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| annegentle | dhellmann: not sure, good question | 20:17 |
| * dims envisions a pypi like interface for all this info | 20:17 | |
| notmorgan | dhellmann: it should. if not we should make sure we're passing the right thing in | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | annegentle : because I wouldn't want the rendering code to have a special case for that | 20:17 |
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| amrith | annegentle, if that's the case should the link be at the project level or the release level? | 20:18 |
| sdague | dhellmann: I'm nearly sure that it does | 20:18 |
| notmorgan | i think "null" is correct | 20:18 |
| notmorgan | not "none" | 20:18 |
| annegentle | is there a way to say docs: and then what type? in YAML? | 20:18 |
| notmorgan | http://yaml.org/type/null.html | 20:18 |
| sdague | notmorgan: yeh, that might be | 20:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | notmorgan: good point | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | sdague : possibly, but ... what notmorgan said | 20:18 |
| annegentle | amrith: you might be onto something there | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | we can deal with that when we update the rendering code | 20:18 |
| flaper87 | annegentle: cool | 20:18 |
| annegentle | amrith: release level perhaps | 20:18 |
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| amrith | annegentle, maybe both? | 20:19 |
| ttx | annegentle: ok, so you will iterate on the review | 20:19 |
| annegentle | ok I probably have enough to do another passthrough... for more reviews | 20:19 |
| annegentle | yeah | 20:19 |
| notmorgan | annegentle: :) | 20:19 |
| annegentle | thanks | 20:19 |
| ttx | annegentle: sounds good | 20:19 |
| amrith | thx annegentle | 20:19 |
| mtreinish | notmorgan: heh, I like the definition there, "devoid of value" | 20:19 |
| notmorgan | mtreinish: hehe | 20:19 |
| ttx | just wanted to make sure you had all you needed to make progress | 20:19 |
| ttx | next topic... | 20:19 |
| ttx | #topic Add golang as an approved language | 20:20 |
| amrith | like the review of my book, "this book fills a much needed void". | 20:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add golang as an approved language (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:20 | |
| * dims dreads | 20:20 | |
| * notmorgan braces for impact. | 20:20 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/312267 | 20:20 |
| ttx | OK, so I'll say this upfront, I dislike all the options we are given here | 20:20 |
| * edleafe gets the popcorn | 20:20 | |
| ttx | Like Monty I tend to lose sleep over them over the past week | 20:20 |
| * notmorgan steals edleafe's popcorn | 20:20 | |
| dhellmann | ttx: I think that's one thing we can all agree on. | 20:20 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:20 |
| ttx | Like there must be a solution that is perfect but I can't find it | 20:20 |
| dims | ttx : yep, don't like it at all | 20:20 |
| annegentle | I'll be honest, I feel backed in a corner. | 20:20 |
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| ttx | Most TC members voiced their position on this one, I'll try to summarize | 20:20 |
| notmorgan | so fwiw, i've changed my view somewhat. | 20:21 |
| ttx | Flavio raised that opening the floodgates to another language is not the right call at this time for OpenStack | 20:21 |
| dougwig | ttx: any chance this can be tabled until the TC tackles defining openstack? | 20:21 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 20:21 |
| ttx | As we are still struggling with driving more consistency and share more things between components of OpenStack | 20:21 |
| annegentle | Timing, urgency, emotional ties... rather than data-driven. | 20:21 |
| ttx | dougwig: we kind of already did | 20:21 |
| ttx | a long time ago | 20:21 |
| notmorgan | dougwig: i would prefer to not take that on first if we're revisiting | 20:21 |
| * Rockyg hands edleafe a pot of hot butter | 20:22 | |
| ttx | And I tend to I agree with Flavio -- I'm still very much supporting the 2011 view that OpenStack is a thing, rather than a loose collection of things | 20:22 |
| notmorgan | dougwig: this is about language first, scope is a separate convo | 20:22 |
| edleafe | Rockyg: mmmmmm | 20:22 |
| notmorgan | if it is being revisited | 20:22 |
| ttx | But we are struggling to share more between projects, and I fear that adding Go would put the final nail in that coffin | 20:22 |
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| ttx | mestery advocated that we should just let the projects use the best tools. | 20:22 |
| ttx | However I think Flavio's option is still giving projects enough choices, including letting projects use dependencies written in other languages, maybe he can develop that in a minute | 20:22 |
| ttx | dims said the TC should vet which projects did enough due diligence to get to use Go and which didn't | 20:23 |
| mestery | The alternative is to say they are not openstack if they use a language like Go I guess | 20:23 |
| ttx | which on the surface sounds like a nice compromise option | 20:23 |
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| dims | ttx : cross-project with guidance from TC | 20:23 |
| flaper87 | yeah, I'm really worried about the community impact this will have and I lean towards the 2011 decision we made. More importantly, I'm in favor of taking a smaller step this time (or no step at all) and give us some extra time to process the big tent change | 20:23 |
| ttx | But I really don't want that. I prefer to say "use a dependency" than be in the business of granting exceptions and telling others "no you're not tall enough to use Go" | 20:23 |
| ttx | mordred was very eloquent and I wouldn't dare summarize his views, maybe he can | 20:23 |
| dims | ttx ack | 20:23 |
| mordred | ttx: no chance - that took me a long time to write | 20:23 |
| flaper87 | mestery: not necessarily, some projects can use a dependency model as the one proposed 2 weeks ago but some projects won't be able to do that and, admitedly, the project might need to make other decisions there | 20:23 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I can't imagine how we could effectively police the "appropriate" use | 20:24 |
| notmorgan | i am very very very very very very very against the TC saying "you can use go" individually | 20:24 |
| flaper87 | mordred: lol | 20:24 |
| thingee | dhellmann: +1 | 20:24 |
| notmyname | the TC has already supported other languages than python for valid technical reasons. and it seems everyone agrees with the technical justifications that have been given | 20:24 |
| mordred | ttx: I hate both choices, I just think one is a little less bad than the other | 20:24 |
| ttx | notmorgan: that we agree on | 20:24 |
| flaper87 | notmorgan: yup, not the plan | 20:24 |
| ttx | mordred: it's also easier to revisit, although I'd hate that too | 20:24 |
| * notmorgan summarizes mordred's email as "read the email for context" | 20:24 | |
| mestery | flaper87: Some not all, thus my comment was relevant :) | 20:24 |
| mordred | notmorgan: ++ | 20:24 |
| ttx | Any others I missed ? | 20:24 |
| mugsie | and we have in the past just let other languages slip in, and said nothing | 20:24 |
| edleafe | I'd still like to see an attempt to use gopy to create an extension for the "slow part" so that the majority of the code can remain in Python | 20:24 |
| ttx | I think thingee is also on flaper87 option | 20:24 |
| flaper87 | mugsie: yup | 20:24 |
| mestery | mugsie: What? Blasphemy | 20:24 |
| * ttx ctaches up with recent reviews | 20:25 | |
| flaper87 | mugsie: that was for mestery | 20:25 |
| mestery | lol :) | 20:25 |
| dims | dhellmann : cross-project spec and debate at cross project meeting | 20:25 |
| mugsie | flaper87: tab+m? | 20:25 |
| notmyname | edleafe: all we've talked about now with swift specifically is a small part of the whole. we're not planning on rewriting everything in go | 20:25 |
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| flaper87 | mugsie: guilty as charged | 20:25 |
| notmorgan | as long as we clearly say this is a big tent issue (go is not part of the tent), but (as long as infra doesn't raise a flag, and they havent), you can use our CI. | 20:25 |
| mestery | I like dtroyer's comment, it was spot on I think, and aligns with what dougwig mentioned too. | 20:25 |
| edleafe | notmyname: that was more for Designate's concerns | 20:26 |
| notmorgan | i'm fine with it at this point, regardless of the direction taken. | 20:26 |
| thingee | yes, I think if the TC provides the option for projects to have an outside requirement based on go that's not part of the big tent, that would be fine. | 20:26 |
| sdague | mestery: then propose some removes if that is your primary concern | 20:26 |
| * notmorgan feels that a decision needs to be made today fwiw on this. | 20:26 | |
| ttx | mugsie made good points on more fragemntation at specific project level vs. more fragmentation at openstack-level | 20:26 |
| flaper87 | thingee: ++ | 20:26 |
| notmorgan | thingee: and that as the add on point | 20:26 |
| flaper87 | notmorgan: +! on making the decision today | 20:26 |
| dhellmann | thingee : we don't currently have any formal restrictions about the language of third-party dependencies, do we? | 20:26 |
| mestery | sdague: Fair point | 20:26 |
| dims | thingee : i'd like people to do their work here, not go elsewhere.. | 20:26 |
| annegentle | the timing is what's troubling. Why didn't you come to the TC over a year ago to map out a plan notmyname ? Why are we in this position of a black-and-white decision? | 20:26 |
| notmyname | does "not in the tent" mean that it's not in the openstack/* namespace at all? | 20:26 |
| thingee | dhellmann: nope | 20:26 |
| flaper87 | notmyname: nope | 20:26 |
| mordred | notmyname: the openstack/ namespace does not convey meaning | 20:27 |
| notmorgan | notmyname: no, just not in governance | 20:27 |
| devananda | thingee: that sounds like we're saying "if you develop your libraries elsewhere, you can use what ever language you want, and you can use them in openstack projects" | 20:27 |
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| mugsie | I also would ask, we are talking about devs who are cross -virtical project devs. - did we ever really have that many? (aprart from the period when stuuff was being brought out of nova) | 20:27 |
| notmorgan | notmyname: absolutely still possible to be in openstack/* namespace if they want to be :) | 20:27 |
| dhellmann | devananda : as long as you can pip-install them | 20:27 |
| thingee | dims: no one said to go elsewhere. you're still part of the community. it's the project's choice if they can't work with the option given | 20:27 |
| notmorgan | it is up to the project to make that choice. | 20:27 |
| mugsie | notmorgan: is it? | 20:27 |
| mordred | dhellmann: or apt/yum | 20:27 |
| dtroyer | mordred: as much as I wish that were true, it is not | 20:27 |
| devananda | dhellmann: I can't "pip install mysql" - but we depend on mysql | 20:27 |
| dhellmann | mordred : or import from python, I guess I should say | 20:27 |
| devananda | mordred: right. that's better | 20:27 |
| anteaya | mugsie: it is not the number it is the workload | 20:27 |
| dhellmann | devananda : mysql is not a lib | 20:27 |
| mordred | dtroyer: it may imply meaning to people, but it does not convey chosen meaning | 20:27 |
| notmorgan | mugsie: it is. infra has said they are willing to help make go part of the deal, like java can be, like javascript can be | 20:28 |
| anteaya | mugsie: and those that do cross project have had an increaased workload | 20:28 |
| edleafe | mysql is also not part of OpenStack | 20:28 |
| flaper87 | mordred: +1 | 20:28 |
| mugsie | anteaya: the point raised in the review was loack of cross-virtical-project developers | 20:28 |
| anteaya | right | 20:28 |
| dims | thingee : ttx : do we let code be in openstack/ git and use CI but just not in governance? | 20:28 |
| ttx | "not in the tent" just means "not under the TC rule" | 20:28 |
| notmorgan | mugsie: so the code can use opoenstack infra and be in openstack/* namespace, just not be in governance as an official openstack deliverable (it can be a dep like mysql is) | 20:28 |
| ttx | which is kind of what you want here | 20:28 |
| anteaya | and the ones that are currently active have an increased workload | 20:28 |
| mordred | dims: yes. we have tons of things like that | 20:28 |
| sdague | dims: yes | 20:28 |
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| dims | whew ok | 20:28 |
| mugsie | notmorgan: yeah - I knew that, but the issue around community costs is still going to happen then | 20:29 |
| thingee | dims: projects not part of the governance can already do that | 20:29 |
| cdent | having lots of things that are not OpenStack™ in /openstack is bound to cause external folk a ton of confusion | 20:29 |
| flaper87 | and some actually do already, IIRC | 20:29 |
| ttx | projects can continue to use openstack infrastructure and prove us wrong | 20:29 |
| notmorgan | mugsie: somewhat. it doesn't convey ATC, doesn't convey other benefits, doesn't convey VMT coverage, etc | 20:29 |
| notmyname | what you're asking is that the swift contributors, in order to move forward with the best technical solution, will work in 2 separate repos? one under the TC and one not, where one is dependent on the other | 20:29 |
| cdent | s/a ton of/increasaed | 20:29 |
| anteaya | and if the workload decreased to a managable amount we might get more folks doing cross project work | 20:29 |
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| dims | thingee : that softens the blow | 20:30 |
| anteaya | cdent: it already is | 20:30 |
| devananda | notmorgan: ah, thanks for the clarification. would it be correct to restate that as "develop it using shared openstack resources, but not under openstack governance" ? | 20:30 |
| annegentle | right on the dependency... I don't understand any technical reason not to keep having the separate golang solution for object portion? What changed notmyname other than ttx's request? | 20:30 |
| dims | not sure what practical difference it makes to infra/docs etc | 20:30 |
| thingee | cdent: I disagree, we have things not part of openstack that are dependencies for certain use cases. | 20:30 |
| notmorgan | devananda: yes, better phrasing | 20:30 |
| cdent | thingee: I'm just reporting what people tell me | 20:30 |
| devananda | notmorgan: maybe I'm being obtuse, but what's the practical difference, then? | 20:31 |
| notmorgan | notmyname: i would almost argue that should be the case in either case. | 20:31 |
| notmyname | annegentle: that is what we're planning on. having a golang object server (and a few supporting daemons). but there's not a dividing line between that and the rest of the project | 20:31 |
| thingee | cdent: I'm just reporting what is happening today :) - I mean libvirt is fine for example | 20:31 |
| edleafe | cdent: that was recognized when we got rid of stackforge | 20:31 |
| ttx | notmyname: the trick is how to allow you to do that without breaking the rest of openstack with crazy Golang rewrites | 20:31 |
| dhellmann | notmyname : we would also need to decide how that dependency is consumed. I'm not sure devstack would want to install it from source, for example. Maybe? | 20:31 |
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| notmorgan | devananda: it's a resource allocation thing, horizontal teams are not required to be part of it, and those resources are very constrained. | 20:32 |
| notmorgan | devananda: and a marketing thing. | 20:32 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: ++ | 20:32 |
| notmyname | it's like going to any other project and picking some files from some subdirectory and asking those to be developed in a separate repo now | 20:32 |
| annegentle | notmyname: is there a technical problem with the dividing line? (really trying to understand, this is not a judging stance) | 20:32 |
| mugsie | so, as a straw man, we could have a repo that docs the usage, and how to install a repo in openstack/ , and for features requires work in both repos, but the 2nd repo is not part of openstack | 20:32 |
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| flaper87 | dhellmann: notmyname but that's something we can work together on with the infra team and whatnot if needed | 20:32 |
| mugsie | what is the difference then | 20:32 |
| dims | dhellmann : i dont know how doing this way in any way reduces burden on cross project teams... | 20:32 |
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| notmyname | annegentle: yes. I went into this in great detail in an email to tts and flaper87, but that's not currently a public document | 20:32 |
| ttx | annegentle: yes there is... notmyname explained it to me quite well. the way swift is designed makes it hard to split it along dependency lines | 20:32 |
| jroll | ttx: I find your use of the word "breaking" there interesting, why does re-writing things in golang inherently break things? or do you mean break openstack into two communities, between the go bits and the python bits | 20:32 |
| annegentle | notmyname: ok | 20:33 |
| ttx | which is why it's not a nideal solution at all | 20:33 |
| flaper87 | annegentle: notmyname: happy to share the contents of that email | 20:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | cdent: agreed the current state of /openstack is confusing, points to the deeper questions we still need to answer here | 20:33 |
| mordred | jroll: community | 20:33 |
| notmyname | flaper87: I would totally support that | 20:33 |
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| jroll | mordred: noted, the wording threw me | 20:33 |
| annegentle | flaper87: notmyname: thanks that will help me understand | 20:33 |
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| flaper87 | annegentle: notmyname: coolio, I'll probably just put everything on an etherpad | 20:33 |
| devananda | notmorgan: I am struggling to see how the distiction of whether a golang-based project falls under TC guidance has any bearing on cross-project teams (aside from the TC) | 20:33 |
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| notmyname | flaper87: annegentle: I can put it on the ML after the meeting | 20:33 |
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| dims | devananda : me too | 20:34 |
| notmorgan | devananda: docs team, VMT, etc | 20:34 |
| ttx | annegentle: it's a problem that is linked to the very integrated design in swift, other openstack projects are less likely to have the same problem | 20:34 |
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| jroll | devananda++ | 20:34 |
| devananda | notmorgan: docs, VMT, etc, already don't have to care about new projets | 20:34 |
| jroll | ^ | 20:34 |
| devananda | notmorgan: so why would they care about this one? | 20:34 |
| annegentle | I basically still sense that the problem is complex, the solution proposed is too simplified, so we all can't agree. | 20:34 |
| clarkb | devananda: dims we spend a significant amount of time hand holding every little piece of dev | 20:34 |
| notmorgan | devananda: but the non-governance repos can't ask for these resources | 20:34 |
| dhellmann | devananda : not true. They don't have to do the work for them, but they have to support them with tooling and guidance. | 20:34 |
| ttx | annegentle: yes | 20:34 |
| notmorgan | devananda: in an official capacity that is | 20:34 |
| dims | clarkb : saying, you can create new repos with go code and use CI/infra etc..does not reduce that burden | 20:35 |
| anteaya | having to go to teams and re-iterate what took place in a different meeting or summit session that they didn't know about because they were doing their own work | 20:35 |
| devananda | dhellmann: I see. so the removal of the expectation that horizontal teams do (or do not) have to provide guidance to go-lang projects -- is that the sticking point? | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | devananda : that resulted in "the install guide" being renamed and repurposed, for example, to make space for other guides | 20:35 |
| clarkb | dims: yes it does I dont have to debug your tests when they fail | 20:35 |
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| anteaya | there is a lot of repeating of events that goes along with cross project work | 20:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | devananda: dhellmann: well, you end up getting a parallel set of tooling for all the go folks I guess? regardless of who does it | 20:35 |
| clarkb | or teach you how to use sphinx etc | 20:35 |
| mugsie | clarkb: even for some big tent projects - they dont get that | 20:35 |
| dims | clarkb : interesting distinction | 20:35 |
| notmorgan | devananda: that is part of the deal. also marketing from the foundation and ATC etc conveyance would be excluded | 20:35 |
| devananda | clarkb: adding a dependency on another language, regardless of whether horizontal teams support that language, or whether the TC has oversight, still results in "me needing to debug it when it fails and affects my gate" | 20:35 |
| clarkb | mugsie: they totally so... | 20:35 |
| clarkb | I spend a large chunj of my time debugging your code | 20:36 |
| devananda | clarkb: so adding golang _at all_ carries that shared debugging burden | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy : possibly. expectations for something likes i18n might be lower if the project isn't official. | 20:36 |
| notmorgan | dhellmann: ++ | 20:36 |
| johnthetubaguy | devananda: true | 20:36 |
| johnthetubaguy | oops | 20:36 |
| devananda | regardless of TC oversight of golang-based projects | 20:36 |
| dims | clarkb : so we'll let folks use other languages instead of swift in new git repos? | 20:36 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: true | 20:36 |
| ttx | devananda: infra costs are mostly similar. It just makes it a lot harder to introduce new organizations to "openstack development", for example | 20:36 |
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| ttx | or drive any sort of cross-project initiative | 20:36 |
| dims | oops golang | 20:36 |
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| devananda | ttx: ok, thanks. that is what I envision, but not what notmorgan was claiming above | 20:36 |
| Guest43585 | why not have two separate object storage projects that implement the object storage API defined by the object storage program? | 20:37 |
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| clarkb | dims: we already do... java, Go, php, even objective C I tink | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | devananda : that's a good point. and projects may choose not to depend on unstable unofficial projects for that reason. | 20:37 |
| devananda | scotticus: that's not what was proposed, nor what we're discussing | 20:37 |
| jbryce | notmorgan: from a practical perspective i would have a hard time feeling ok with excluding talking about something that is a better user experience developed by the same team that develops the rest of the project…. | 20:37 |
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| notmorgan | jbryce: there is a difference from the standpoint of "this is an openstack project" and "this is a dependency such as mysql" | 20:38 |
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| notmorgan | jbryce: my words are insufficient to cover the fidelity there | 20:38 |
| notmorgan | jbryce: it may be the best experience to do this with this dependency | 20:38 |
| notmyname | notmorgan: jbryce: but in this case, you're talking about a required dependency that's developed by the same group of people | 20:38 |
| devananda | notmyname: * and on the same shared infrastructure :) | 20:38 |
| notmorgan | notmyname: i'm going to go out and say RDBMS is required. | 20:38 |
| ttx | we are already building a solution out of things that are developed in openstack, or developed in openstack infra but by non-TC-driven teams, and stuff that is developed outside. The question here is where do we draw the line | 20:39 |
| notmorgan | notmyname: and in most cases that is mysql | 20:39 |
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| flaper87 | ttx: or developed by openstack people out side openstack and inside openstack that depend on openstack | 20:39 |
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| flaper87 | that came out messy but you get my point | 20:39 |
| mordred | we typically do not depend on external _source_ repositories. we depend on released binaries of things | 20:39 |
| * flaper87 hopes | 20:39 | |
| clarkb | (dont read my comments as anti new lang I enjoy the challenges, but generqlly think that alot of the cross project work is taken for granted when we complwtwly fix the random lang rwlated test thing that broke your tests and ypu didnt notice because we fixed) | 20:39 |
| mordred | so we do not install mysql from source to install openstack | 20:39 |
| annegentle | ttx: to me the line is drawn based on priorities, and right now I don't want to prioritize in this language-contributor-centric way. | 20:39 |
| dims | clarkb :) no worries | 20:40 |
| mordred | we apt-get/yum install mysql | 20:40 |
| notmyname | but in this case it's that you've got one group of people working on one thing, but forced to develop it in two separate repos | 20:40 |
| mordred | it's a dependency | 20:40 |
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| annegentle | clarkb: yes, that. | 20:40 |
| jroll | clarkb: <3 | 20:40 |
| ttx | notmyname: yes, that is why I don't like this solution. I just hate it less than the other option | 20:40 |
| devananda | clarkb: and thank you :) | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | annegentle: that pretty much summarizes my comment and concern. | 20:40 |
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| notmyname | ttx: the other option being golang is ok? (which everyone has agreed is probably the right answer, technically) | 20:41 |
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| edleafe | notmyname: technical merits aren't the only (or most important) thing | 20:41 |
| devananda | ttx: if i'm following, this will force openstack projects that want to develop some compoent(s) in golang to build, test, and publish those component(s) independently,so that they can be installed via package managers | 20:42 |
| ttx | notmyname: the other option being to say that rewriting things in Go is ok across the board, and struggle to drive cross-project goals or specs incrementally more | 20:42 |
| dims | ttx : are we back where we are or do we need a resolution to say - "You can be in big tent only if the project is written in python"? | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | the technical merits is not what we're weighting more here, fwiw | 20:42 |
| dims | we are essentially saying that here | 20:42 |
| ttx | so it's about project-centric pain vs. cross-project pain. You can actually see that in the vote spread | 20:42 |
| annegentle | dims: you already don't need that. | 20:42 |
| edleafe | dims: or rather, you really need to demonstrate why you *can't* write it in Python | 20:42 |
| scotticus | dims: i feel like i have a solution for that :P | 20:42 |
| jbryce | in a pre-big-tent world, the drawing of the lines would seem more rational to me, but in a post-big-tent world where we’ve already created a lot of confusion externally, this seems like an arbitrary place to deny an official project team’s consensus request, discussed over 3 design summits, on mailing lists, back by data… | 20:42 |
| thingee | dims: I think that would probably be the result of this discussion ... a resolution of some sort | 20:42 |
| scotticus | or proposal. | 20:42 |
| dims | annegentle : we don't say it explicitly, we should now that we have a decision here | 20:42 |
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| devananda | ttx: if that's a correct summary, I would restate it as "non-python projects must be developed and released completely independently, and consumed by python projects only in their binary / released / distro'd forms" | 20:43 |
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| annegentle | dims: it's that this proposal is written too black-and-white. | 20:43 |
| dims | thingee ++ | 20:43 |
| mordred | devananda: I believe you stated that very clearly | 20:43 |
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| flaper87 | devananda: ++ | 20:43 |
| dims | annegentle : don't know how else it could have been written :( | 20:43 |
| notmyname | annegentle: how so? what shoudl change? | 20:43 |
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| jbryce | big tent was a much bigger move in terms of cross-project impact and we sort of ran headlong into that one. and i thought that was about a shift of “what is openstack” to “who is openstack” | 20:43 |
| annegentle | dims: notmyname: More like the considerations upfront than the "contributors are in pain let's alleviate that" | 20:44 |
| devananda | jbryce: ++ | 20:44 |
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| ttx | jbryce: yes, and "who is openstack" is defined by the practices that we share | 20:44 |
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| flaper87 | ttx: ++ | 20:44 |
| annegentle | notmyname: though what I also would dive into is what was the order of javascript additions? | 20:44 |
| dims | annegentle : don't know if it would have changed the outcome | 20:44 |
| jroll | blunt question: we've talked a lot about the community impact here; has anyone considered the impact if swift decides to no longer be part of openstack? | 20:44 |
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| ttx | and I feel like this is extending it beyond our capacity to absorb it | 20:44 |
| annegentle | notmyname: it's possible my history order is incorrect | 20:44 |
| anteaya | ttx: ++ | 20:44 |
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| ttx | I don't like yes, I don't like no, and I don't like stalling. Someone help me | 20:45 |
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| scotticus | if openstack is wanting to be a series of control planes, shouldn't it just be a collection of API contracts/definitions? | 20:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: it doesn't help, but I am in the same camp right now | 20:46 |
| mordred | scotticus: no | 20:46 |
| notmyname | it's never been that scotticus | 20:46 |
| mordred | scotticus: that was decided a very long time ago | 20:46 |
| edleafe | scotticus: no, that was decided a long time ago | 20:46 |
| mordred | edleafe: jinx | 20:46 |
| edleafe | mordred: jinx | 20:46 |
| dims | everyone abstain? (looking at @notmorgan) | 20:46 |
| flaper87 | scotticus: tbh, I believe that's quite a loaded question that's not going to help with this discussion but no is the answer | 20:46 |
| mordred | hahaha | 20:46 |
| notmorgan | dims: no i don't think adding it is going to work, and i cannot -1 rollcall the addition | 20:47 |
| * flaper87 hands a cookie to edleafe and mordred | 20:47 | |
| notmyname | ttx: go to what the data says. we've got data points from swift and definite interest from other projects as well | 20:47 |
| notmorgan | dims: i agree strongly with both notmyname and mordred | 20:47 |
| jbryce | i definitely don’t think this is an easy one at all. i know that several have said they don’t like the idea of opening up alternate languages on a case-by-case basis through a tc approval process, but in the situation where there isn’t a clear consensus for one side, maybe that is the right way to start | 20:47 |
| ttx | dims: stalling it would be an option, but I don't feel like it's much better for notmyname than saying no | 20:47 |
| notmorgan | dims: and since i cannot and CANNOT make a case here right now, i will support the decision made. | 20:47 |
| dims | agree | 20:47 |
| jbryce | the swift team has set a pretty high bar for making that justification | 20:47 |
| carolbarrett | If the desire is to be able to include add'l languages in the future - why not establish a team to go off and create a proposal for the TC to review/approve by some point in time? | 20:47 |
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| edleafe | jbryce: exactly. Demonstrate why you need Go or anything else | 20:47 |
| dtroyer | I think the TC getting a bit more involved in actually guiding projects is not a bad thing at all | 20:47 |
| jbryce | literally over more than a year of time, testing, data gathering | 20:47 |
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| ttx | edleafe: to whom ? | 20:48 |
| notmorgan | dtroyer: ++ | 20:48 |
| edleafe | ttx: to the TC | 20:48 |
| carolbarrett | dtroyer ++ | 20:48 |
| edleafe | ttx: that is a technical decision, no? | 20:48 |
| notmyname | edleafe: has swift not done that sufficiently yet? | 20:48 |
| devananda | notmyname: what would the impact be if the golang parts of swift were released independently and consumed by the rest of swift as system libraries (eg, apt-get install my-faster-swfit-lib) ? | 20:48 |
| amrith | dtroyer ... ++ | 20:48 |
| jbryce | and if we can’t feel good about a blanket deicision, maybe we are just not at a point to be able to make the blanket decision and we need to use the tc algorithm like sdague said | 20:48 |
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| annegentle | devananda: apparently there's a document about that | 20:48 |
| edleafe | notmyname: For swift, yes. For Designate, no | 20:48 |
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| devananda | annegentle: oh? | 20:48 |
| ttx | edleafe: I really fear we'll be back into granting exceptions, and judging projects technical analysis | 20:48 |
| dims | ttx : we can let folks add proposals to cross-project specs and talk about it there and vote on the spec and let some amount of vetting happen | 20:48 |
| annegentle | devananda: I asked something similar and flaper87 and notmyname can send | 20:49 |
| dims | will give a say to everyone in the process on a specific projects plans | 20:49 |
| ttx | like swift is pretty clear-cut, I totally get why they need go. What about designate ? | 20:49 |
| notmyname | devananda: it would be very disruptive for swift contributors. it's a very silly and arbitrary project division. we would likely do our best to keep them as unified as possible | 20:49 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: maybe that how we don't stall and don't decide right now? | 20:49 |
| edleafe | notmyname: hence the dislike of making all Go (or anything else) accepted by default | 20:49 |
| devananda | notmyname: ok, thanks | 20:49 |
| dims | i agree that TC should not be the police. can we use cross project to do that? | 20:50 |
| * jlvillal wonders if the 'repo' tool would help with multiple project development | 20:50 | |
| notmorgan | dims: doubtful. | 20:50 |
| ttx | So... one option would be to give Swift an exception and let them use Go. That is pretty safe. But that makes them special again | 20:50 |
| anteaya | dims: noone likes to be the police | 20:50 |
| edleafe | ttx: yes, but I don't see any way out of that. Unless we're willing to trade community for a bunch of loosely-associated tribes | 20:50 |
| notmyname | honestly, my biggest challenge, if the TC says "split", as PTL would be to convince swift contributors to not ragequit and find something else to do | 20:50 |
| flaper87 | dims: fwiw, I'd prefer the TC to do that in this case | 20:50 |
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| notmorgan | notmyname: fair data point | 20:50 |
| thingee | no, I'm not for special case. I'm really unhappy with the previous special cases. | 20:50 |
| dtroyer | flaper87: ++ | 20:50 |
| flaper87 | ttx: I honestly would prefer to stay consistent in this case | 20:50 |
| flaper87 | so no special case | 20:51 |
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| notmyname | thingee: I've never asked for this to be a special case for swift :-) | 20:51 |
| dims | that's all the ideas i had :) | 20:51 |
| notmorgan | i'm at the point that i think (don't hate me) a special case is the only thing i can vote for/against clearly | 20:51 |
| flaper87 | time check | 20:51 |
| thingee | I don't really understand how stalling is going to bring some magic answer to this. It's a difficult decision, but the TC has weighed in on the issue. I think both options suck, but I don't really understand the point of decisions being made if we're not going to go by them. | 20:51 |
| edleafe | notmorgan: agree | 20:51 |
| mordred | thingee: ++ | 20:51 |
| notmorgan | stalling is not going to answer it | 20:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | so in a years time, we will know the impact it has had on swift | 20:52 |
| devananda | thingee: +1 | 20:52 |
| ttx | So I'm open for someone (dims) to propose a mechanism by which we would be able to vet projects individually | 20:52 |
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| dtroyer | thingee: ++ please do something, and then follow though on it | 20:52 |
| notmorgan | bascially a stall here is a -1 imo | 20:52 |
| flaper87 | thingee: ++ | 20:52 |
| dims | ttx : very cool. i am open to that | 20:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | its possible swift will build a group of folks that work well in both go and python | 20:52 |
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| johnthetubaguy | or they might decide to move everything to go | 20:52 |
| edleafe | dims: I'd love to help | 20:52 |
| devananda | johnthetubaguy: it's already been in discussion for a long time, and the impact is becoming clear to that project | 20:52 |
| ttx | but the current resolution can' tpass at this stage, unless a few people who voted -1 decide to change their vote | 20:52 |
| dims | edleafe : ack | 20:52 |
| flaper87 | dims: ttx until that happens, I think we should stick with what's been voted on | 20:52 |
| ttx | we have a majority to deny this as it stands | 20:53 |
| notmorgan | ttx: so i think the answer is no to golang. by the nature of the votes. | 20:53 |
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| amrith | dims, I'm interested in that as well; am happy to help with that proposal. | 20:53 |
| dims | amrith : ack | 20:53 |
| thingee | ok, so we stall because some member abstain and need more time? | 20:53 |
| notmyname | all the things you're proposing as future things for swift is exactly what's happened in the feature branch. which seemed entirely ok with everyone. and now we want to merge some golang code to master and this is what it's turned in to | 20:53 |
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| dims | notmyname : i'll need your help as well | 20:53 |
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| dtroyer | dims: me too | 20:54 |
| notmyname | dims: with what now? I missed somethign it seems | 20:54 |
| dims | notmyname : "<ttx>So I'm open for someone (dims) to propose a mechanism by which we would be able to vet projects individually" | 20:54 |
| notmorgan | notmyname: basically special case with a clear set of guidelines for anyone wanting it in the future | 20:54 |
| ttx | notmyname: propose a mechanism for selective access to extra languages | 20:54 |
| notmorgan | notmyname: so it's "here is how you get approval for this" | 20:54 |
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| notmyname | ok | 20:55 |
| thingee | dims: I and other members have expressed we'd not like the TC to be part of that process. | 20:55 |
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| jroll | if we assert that allowing go will break the community, and then allow a select few projects to use it, won't that still break the community? | 20:55 |
| notmyname | does that imply that the TC is ok with swift's code repo having golang code? | 20:55 |
| * jroll devil's advocate | 20:55 | |
| ttx | since it looks like we can't resolve ourselves to accept blank approval | 20:55 |
| notmorgan | ttx: so lets call it "no to golang in this proposal". | 20:55 |
| devananda | jroll: ++ | 20:55 |
| thingee | dims: to which others expressed the community should vet | 20:55 |
| mugsie | jroll: ++ | 20:55 |
| dims | thingee : yep, i mentioned that already | 20:55 |
| thingee | which I also don't think is productive | 20:55 |
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| annegentle | notmyname: revise not to "go or no go" but to a "here's what we expect from projects when they add a language" | 20:55 |
| jroll | fwiw, I'm on the 'allow' side of this line but don't get a vote | 20:55 |
| jbryce | thingee: i think at least one other tc member said he would like to be | 20:56 |
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| devananda | as far as notmorgan's objection earlier to the TC getting back into the busiess of special casing projects, I agree - TC shouldn't do that | 20:56 |
| edleafe | jroll: small cracks are much better than chasms | 20:56 |
| dims | annegentle : agree | 20:56 |
| thingee | jbryce: I'd hate to repeat pre big tent unproductive discussions. | 20:56 |
| devananda | edleafe: small cracks widen over time | 20:56 |
| jroll | edleafe: I disagree that it would be any worse allowing anyone to use go | 20:56 |
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| carolbarrett | If the TC won't take the role of making decisions about governance across the projects, then who should? | 20:56 |
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| carolbarrett | I thought that was a key part of the TC charter | 20:56 |
| jroll | edleafe: or any "larger of a crack", using your analogy | 20:56 |
| devananda | carolbarrett: the TC does make decisions across projects | 20:56 |
| notmyname | I seem to be seeing a lot of contradictory things being said. let's special-case. specical-case is bad. no golang. but here's how any new language should be ok | 20:56 |
| sdague | jroll: as someone who maintains common infrastructure everyone has to use in the gate, it's always worse when people do things differently | 20:57 |
| notmorgan | ttx: so. | 20:57 |
| devananda | carolbarrett: but blessing exceptions to its own rules? that's not what the TC is about | 20:57 |
| notmorgan | if i am reading this: | 20:57 |
| ttx | notmorgan: I'm lost | 20:57 |
| notmorgan | 1) No to golang, blanket is what i am hearing | 20:57 |
| notmorgan | please correct me if i am wrong | 20:57 |
| ttx | yes, I think that's fair | 20:57 |
| carolbarrett | devananda: sounds like a cross-project governance decision to me... | 20:57 |
| jroll | sdague: right, so why is allowing select people to do something different better than allowing anyone? if nothing else, allowing anyone will make that special thing less special | 20:57 |
| jbryce | that’s where the votes on the review sit currently, yes | 20:57 |
| notmorgan | 2) dims, notmyname, etc will come up with a guideline to cover access for other languages | 20:57 |
| dims | 3 mins time check | 20:57 |
| notmorgan | something we can judge the projects by | 20:58 |
| sdague | jroll: I agree, I don't think it's better. And wouldn't really feel any different about it. | 20:58 |
| mordred | notmorgan: and there are some people who have expressed interest in that, some who have express dislike, and others who have not said anything | 20:58 |
| notmorgan | 3) Swift is not being told no to "golang" | 20:58 |
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| jroll | sdague: fair enough | 20:58 |
| notmorgan | mordred: i dis like it a lot | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | notmorgan: somehow, I'm afraid that guideline will endup in the TC voting on the same thing we're voting on right here | 20:58 |
| mordred | notmorgan: right. I'm just annotating | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | but I could be wrong, need to read it first | 20:58 |
| notmorgan | mordred: ++ | 20:58 |
| ttx | notmorgan: hmm, expand on 3 ? | 20:58 |
| mugsie | well, i think this is going to end in the current language policy | 20:58 |
| notmorgan | 3) swift is being asked to rpopose the way we vette projects - and they'd be the first in the line for it | 20:58 |
| mordred | notmorgan: like, 2 isn't "we've agreed it's a good idea" - more, 2) may be another avenue worth discussing pending details | 20:58 |
| ttx | because we are not really saying yes either ;/ | 20:59 |
| notmyname | ttx: I feel like this meeting should use executive privilege and keep going for a few minutes to get to a conclusion | 20:59 |
| mestery | notmorgan: 3 seems to conflict with 1 | 20:59 |
| mugsie | use python, want something else go to the TC | 20:59 |
| notmorgan | not being told to "go away and split off" | 20:59 |
| notmorgan | explicitly | 20:59 |
| notmorgan | it was more of 2a. | 20:59 |
| notmorgan | not 3 | 20:59 |
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| flaper87 | notmorgan: yeah | 20:59 |
| notmorgan | that was what i read from this meeting. | 20:59 |
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| ttx | notmyname: I'm fine with that yes | 20:59 |
| ttx | I think we need a few extra minutes | 20:59 |
| ttx | next meeting if any could move to another room | 20:59 |
| notmorgan | i was just summarizing what i saw in the meeting | 20:59 |
| ttx | although that makes me getting drunk to forget all this later away | 21:00 |
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| flaper87 | notmorgan: sounds like a fair summary to me | 21:00 |
| anteaya | ttx: I don't see a conflict in the ical schedule | 21:00 |
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| flaper87 | ttx: I'm ahead of you on that ;) | 21:00 |
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| * flaper87 acts normal | 21:00 | |
| edleafe | ttx: maybe we should all have a few drinks, and then continue :) | 21:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I think that is a good summary, and its not self-consistent really, hence the issue | 21:00 |
| dims | we need to find a reasonable way to vet proposals and make aware of people the deeper issues behind choices | 21:00 |
| ttx | So, summary | 21:00 |
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| cdent | So, something I'd like to be more clear about: What does swift gain by being in OpenStack? | 21:01 |
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| mordred | I think 1 is the only thing that's clear - 2 and 3 are maybes as things to explore to mitigate the results of 1 | 21:01 |
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| mordred | since there are clearly people who are unhappy with 1 - and working to find ways to move forward are the next steps that we are likely to explore | 21:01 |
| flaper87 | mordred: right, I believe #2 should be very specific. Something projects would apply for and that defines the process to get a vet | 21:01 |
| notmorgan | cdent: i am going to say that is a convo outside the scope of this - please please do not bring that part back in here. Swift has decided they want to be part of openstack, i am willing to view that as face value worthy | 21:01 |
| ttx | We have a framework for accepting extra languages (and this proposal was made under it) that grant blanket access to extra languages | 21:01 |
| jbryce | to me it sounds like people are generally uncomfortable with both of the blanket options currently on the table, but feel that it’s potentially more harmful to open the “flood gates” to an unlimited set of go proposals across all projects | 21:01 |
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| * Rockyg hands mordrd a bottle of single malt | 21:02 | |
| ttx | jbryce: yes | 21:02 |
| flaper87 | Rockyg: yo, don't forget me ! | 21:02 |
| mordred | jbryce: ++ | 21:02 |
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| thingee | jbryce: +1 | 21:02 |
| ttx | I think that there is a majority at the TC that is not comfortable with Go blanket access | 21:02 |
| notmorgan | jbryce: yes. | 21:02 |
| * Rockyg passes out glasses | 21:02 | |
| amrith | heh heh ... Rockyg gives edleafe butter and mordred single malt :) | 21:02 |
| edleafe | jbryce: more than that. When the next new popular language comes up, why say no to that one? And then the next? | 21:02 |
| ttx | There MAY be room for more selective access, although a lot of us hate what that may mean | 21:02 |
| * edleafe thinks Rockyg is typing in a pantry | 21:02 | |
| * dims carries the burden | 21:03 | |
| mordred | ttx: right. but it's possible that that is less bad to people generally | 21:03 |
| ttx | but that eeds some work, basically a new framework for us to accept language additions | 21:03 |
| * amrith carries dims | 21:03 | |
| mordred | depending on what magic dims and notmyname write up | 21:03 |
| devananda | jbryce: additionally, some members of the TC do not want the TC to be in the positin of judging which projects are 'worthy' of using golang | 21:03 |
| ttx | mordred: yeah, maybe, devil is in the details | 21:03 |
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| ttx | devananda: but that still may be the less worse option htere | 21:03 |
| mordred | ttx: right. I don't have a strong opinion on that yet, as I haven't spent much time mulling it, personally | 21:03 |
| jbryce | at the same time do most people acknowledge that hummingbird provides a technical improvement for swift? | 21:03 |
| annegentle | cdent: marketing events infra test docs automation debugging frameworks a community and more. but no commas ever. :) | 21:03 |
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| dtroyer | devananda: which is too bad because I think that is its job… | 21:03 |
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| mordred | jbryce: I do not think anyone disputes that | 21:04 |
| ttx | so as far as this patricular resolution is concerned, I think we need to deny it | 21:04 |
| flaper87 | jbryce: mordred ++ | 21:04 |
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| edleafe | jbryce: I think that's the point: swift demonstrated clearly why it was necessary | 21:04 |
| devananda | dtroyer: we were in that position before the big-tent .. it's not great | 21:04 |
| annegentle | jbryce: that's not the heart of the belief set this change brings | 21:04 |
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| ttx | jbryce: I'd agree to that. | 21:04 |
| flaper87 | ttx: and wait for what dims and others will work on | 21:04 |
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| dtroyer | devananda: as implemented then, right. I think we're worse off now | 21:04 |
| ttx | which is why I want to find a way for them to use it without killing the cross-project efforts while doing it | 21:04 |
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| mordred | jbryce: the vexxing part is balancing the tech and the non-tech results - since the two aren't directly comparable | 21:04 |
| devananda | dtroyer: constructively, I disagree | 21:04 |
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| mordred | jbryce: if it was all one or all the other, I think this would be much easier to talk about and discuss and whatnot | 21:05 |
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| notmorgan | honestly, i'm willing to special case swift here. provided they work with dims et al on a forward proposal. | 21:05 |
| * dhellmann returns | 21:05 | |
| notmorgan | mordred: also +10000 | 21:05 |
| mordred | dhellmann: welcome back! | 21:05 |
| jbryce | and also the swift project team sees a separation of the hummingbird object server implementation from openstack swift bits as a difficult ongoing softward lifecycle model to follow? | 21:05 |
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| notmyname | jbryce: yes. absolutely | 21:05 |
| fungi | openstack/liberasurecode also provides a technical improvement for swift, but is consumed as an unofficial repo. it might help to outline how hummingbird is in a different situation | 21:06 |
| flaper87 | jbryce: yup, that was the feedback we got | 21:06 |
| annegentle | jbryce: notmyname to me it's unclear why that separation is untenable | 21:06 |
| ttx | jbryce: and also results in local fragmentation | 21:06 |
| * mordred is now arrived in his trainstation - y'all enjoy, must AFK | 21:06 | |
| carolbarrett | devananda: Someone has to make decisions, it's a fact of life. The TC is elected to govern the projects. If a person isn't comfortable making decisions, then why would they want to be part of the TC? | 21:06 |
| jbryce | mordred: yeah i get that part. as i said to ttx and thingee earlier i’m torn myself because of it | 21:06 |
| devananda | carolbarrett: it's not about making decisions or notmaking decisions | 21:06 |
| anteaya | mordred: safe travels | 21:06 |
| annegentle | fungi: yes I wondered that as well | 21:06 |
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| notmyname | fungi: that's an external project, just like mysql or anything else. but we wanted it to move to openstack/* because frankly lawyers let employees contribute there isntead of some random bitbucket repo | 21:07 |
| ttx | dhellmann: summary is we'll deny this one, and some people will work on a new framework that lets us get the technical benefits without most of the community drawbacks, by rating more selective access | 21:07 |
| notmyname | fungi: and the original authors have about a hundred other thigns on their plate too | 21:07 |
| fungi | notmyname: but the swift community is contributing to it? | 21:07 |
| notmyname | fungi: some | 21:07 |
| notmyname | fungi: just like we do to eventlet | 21:07 |
| carolbarrett | devananda: would be interested to have a follow-up conversation to better understand your viewpoint | 21:07 |
| fungi | are swift team members its primary contributors now? | 21:07 |
| devananda | carolbarrett: be happy to | 21:07 |
| ttx | s/rating/granting | 21:08 |
| notmyname | fungi: hard to say. the move is recent | 21:08 |
| carolbarrett | devananda: Thanks | 21:08 |
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| ttx | timecheck again | 21:08 |
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| notmyname | ttx: that sounds like restarting this discussion and having it again with some different details | 21:08 |
| ttx | I don't think we'll get any further today | 21:08 |
| notmorgan | ttx: 8min over. we can continue for a few more. | 21:08 |
| notmyname | for the record, I think rejecting this proposal is the wrong choice | 21:08 |
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| ttx | noted | 21:09 |
| annegentle | notmyname: recorded | 21:10 |
| notmyname | (wanted that on the record so in 5 years when meeting logs are brought up again, it'll be there) ;-) | 21:10 |
| notmorgan | notmyname: hehe | 21:10 |
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| annegentle | notmyname: heh nice | 21:10 |
| ttx | notmyname: and maybe prove you right | 21:10 |
| dims | :) | 21:10 |
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| Rockyg | should add something as a comment that a different proposal will appearsoon | 21:10 |
| notmorgan | ttx: if we need to wait 5 years... i'm going to be sad. | 21:10 |
| ttx | ok, I'll comment on the review to call it, and close this meeting | 21:10 |
| ttx | unless anyonte has items for open discussion | 21:10 |
| notmyname | yes, one final thing please | 21:10 |
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| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 21:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 21:11 | |
| ttx | notmyname: go for it | 21:11 |
| notmyname | so fir now, it seems that the swift contribs will continue. and I'll work with dims. and this will be brought up again | 21:11 |
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| notmorgan | notmyname: that is how i understand it. | 21:11 |
| notmyname | no mandate from the TC that swift needs to split into differnet projects, one in and one out of openstack | 21:11 |
| EmilienM | (just a review request, if TC can approve https://review.openstack.org/#/c/323027/ -- it will help Puppet group to release Newton b1, thanks) | 21:11 |
| ttx | for the record, I'm really losing sleep over this. Sometimes I wish I cared less | 21:11 |
| ttx | notmyname: nothing of the sort | 21:12 |
| devananda | carolbarrett: short version is: judging the "value" or "worthiness" of a project (and the team of developers behind it) is detrimental to community building, and created a lot competition between projects and negative pressure on the TC | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | ttx: thanks for the summary, there was a lot of scrollback | 21:12 |
| dims | notmyname : no change in status quo | 21:12 |
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| ttx | notmyname: just no to the resolution as it stands | 21:12 |
| notmyname | thanks for the explicit clarification | 21:12 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: new topic: I would like to find a way to merge changes to the projects.yaml file that only affect release tags faster, because the week review delay is holding up some project releases. | 21:13 |
| Rockyg | notmyname, so, limbo still.... | 21:13 |
| devananda | carolbarrett: so the TC adopted more objective guidelines for "being one of us" rather than subjective judgements of "being good enough to be one of us" | 21:13 |
| notmyname | Rockyg: yeah | 21:13 |
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| carolbarrett | devananda: if we have a set of criteria, then everyone in the community knows the rules... | 21:13 |
| notmorgan | EmilienM: proposal works for me btw. | 21:13 |
| ttx | ok, thanks everyone, we need to close it. | 21:13 |
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| annegentle | thanks ttx | 21:13 |
| jroll | thanks ttx | 21:13 |
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| anteaya | ttx: thank you | 21:13 |
| ttx | Now let's bring me that bottle of Absinth | 21:13 |
| annegentle | thanks notmyname | 21:13 |
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| devananda | carolbarrett: exactly. I think that's what this discussion has been, in part, about | 21:14 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:14 | |
| edleafe | thanks everyone | 21:14 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 7 21:14:02 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:14 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-06-07-20.01.html | 21:14 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-06-07-20.01.txt | 21:14 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-06-07-20.01.log.html | 21:14 |
| Rockyg | Thanks! | 21:14 |
| devananda | ttx: what's your preferred variety? | 21:14 |
| amrith | thx ttx | 21:14 |
| devananda | of absinthe :) | 21:14 |
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| ttx | devananda: the sort they serve in Prague will do | 21:14 |
| * fungi assumes "the green kind" | 21:14 | |
| notmorgan | ttx: heh. | 21:15 |
| devananda | hah | 21:15 |
| fungi | resulting in varying degrees of blindness when consumed | 21:15 |
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