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| anteaya | #startmeeting third-party | 08:05 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 18 08:05:19 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:05 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 08:05 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 08:05 |
| anteaya | hello hello if anyone is here | 08:05 |
| lennyb | Hi | 08:05 |
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| eantyshev | o/ | 08:06 |
| eantyshev | hello! | 08:06 |
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| anteaya | hello lennyb and eantyshev | 08:07 |
| anteaya | how are you? | 08:07 |
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| lennyb | thanks, how are you? | 08:07 |
| anteaya | good thanks | 08:08 |
| anteaya | what shall we discuss today? | 08:08 |
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| lennyb | if we have nothing to discuss I have a question | 08:09 |
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| eantyshev | I have nothing particular important | 08:10 |
| anteaya | go ahead | 08:10 |
| lennyb | I heard there is a way to trigger my CI after it passed some basic gates. where can I read more about it? | 08:10 |
| anteaya | eantyshev: okay thannks | 08:10 |
| anteaya | I don't know whaat you mean lennyb | 08:10 |
| anteaya | can you try to explain what you are talking about? | 08:10 |
| anteaya | sorry if I am being slow | 08:11 |
| anteaya | can you just try again? | 08:11 |
| eantyshev | lennyb, do you mean after Openstack Jenkins completed its check? | 08:11 |
| lennyb | I would like to be triggered not by gerrit commit, but by pass of let's say gate-system-config-pep8 | 08:11 |
| lennyb | eantishev: yes, I guess | 08:12 |
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| anteaya | I don't know where to read about doing thata | 08:12 |
| lennyb | eantishev: after Jenkins completed with success | 08:12 |
| anteaya | as that isn't something I would advocate for | 08:12 |
| eantyshev | I think I know what you mean, our CI is triggered by comment of 'jenkins' user including 'Builb succeeded' message, will give you a piece of config now | 08:12 |
| anteaya | some pepole do configure there systems that way and I can't stop them | 08:13 |
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| anteaya | but I personally am not a supporter of that direction | 08:13 |
| eantyshev | we do that because we have to | 08:13 |
| lennyb | anteaya: why? I dont see a reason to load git and our setups if Jenkins failed. | 08:14 |
| eantyshev | or there will be too much computation for our CI | 08:14 |
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| anteaya | right that is the arguement from ci operators | 08:14 |
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| anteaya | the counter argument is that information inn't available earlier in the patch cycle to be incoporated either from reviews by the ci operators on the patch or by the author or human reviewers | 08:15 |
| anteaya | I'm not stopping you | 08:16 |
| anteaya | but I don't personally support it | 08:16 |
| anteaya | and we don't have documentation around that configuration | 08:16 |
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| lennyb | anteaya: thanks. I see your point. | 08:17 |
| anteaya | okay thanks | 08:17 |
| lennyb | eantyshev: thanks about configuration tip | 08:17 |
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| eantyshev | lennyb: http://paste.openstack.org/show/420156/ | 08:17 |
| anteaya | that was all I was trying to share | 08:17 |
| eantyshev | that's how ours works | 08:18 |
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| eantyshev | anteaya, could you please explain more, I don't understand | 08:19 |
| anteaya | lennyb: can you try to explain my point to eantyshev? | 08:19 |
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| anteaya | and I can try to fill in any holes | 08:19 |
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| lennyb | eantyshev: I think the point is to provide as much info and as as quickly as possible to developer. | 08:21 |
| anteaya | lennyb: thank you, yes that is the point | 08:22 |
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| anteaya | also that there is a difference between what infra supports and what operators choose to do | 08:22 |
| anteaya | so should an operator choose to do something that is not the process supported by infra | 08:23 |
| anteaya | and a patch merges that breakes the operator's ci system | 08:23 |
| lennyb | anteaya: how much time usually takes to Jenkins to comment the patch? | 08:23 |
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| anteaya | that responsibility rests with the ci operator | 08:23 |
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| anteaya | depends on how many tests are run | 08:23 |
| anteaya | pep8 and lint jobs are fast | 08:24 |
| anteaya | unit tests take as long as unit tests take | 08:24 |
| eantyshev | lennyb: usually 1 hour for nova and cinder which we check, but sometimes longer | 08:24 |
| anteaya | and functional and integration tests can take over an hour | 08:24 |
| anteaya | depends on the individual test job | 08:24 |
| anteaya | we like to support jobs running in about an hour | 08:25 |
| anteaya | but there are jobs that are more than that | 08:25 |
| anteaya | because that is how long it takes | 08:25 |
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| anteaya | but we do encourage review of how jobs are built by individual repos | 08:25 |
| anteaya | and encourage refactoring to shave off time | 08:26 |
| anteaya | and infra works to reduce build time as well | 08:26 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: I understand that concerns, recent merge failures of some CIs is a consequence of this optimization | 08:27 |
| anteaya | sorry can you expand on your point? | 08:27 |
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| eantyshev | those CIs which are triggered by Jenkins comments, have higher probability to fail to merge the patch | 08:29 |
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| anteaya | ah | 08:30 |
| anteaya | I see | 08:31 |
| anteaya | did we want to discuss this topic further? | 08:31 |
| anteaya | or are we done? | 08:31 |
| lennyb | I have nothing else | 08:32 |
| eantyshev | another thing I want to mention | 08:32 |
| eantyshev | I have created https://review.openstack.org/#/c/207094 some time ago | 08:32 |
| eantyshev | and I need another +2 on that | 08:33 |
| anteaya | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/207094 | 08:33 |
| anteaya | yes you do | 08:34 |
| anteaya | I councel patience | 08:34 |
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| eantyshev | I beleive this should improve the experience of third-party CI operators, as this enables them to check cross-repo dependencies | 08:34 |
| anteaya | it is really hard to get all the things reviewed when we want them in | 08:34 |
| anteaya | I belive your perspective | 08:34 |
| anteaya | hopefully jeblair will have time to look at it soon | 08:35 |
| eantyshev | thanks | 08:35 |
| anteaya | he did just buy a house today | 08:35 |
| anteaya | so he will be very busy offline for the next while doing home new ownership things | 08:35 |
| anteaya | but hopefully your patch will be reviewed soon | 08:35 |
| anteaya | thanks for bringing it up | 08:36 |
| anteaya | anything more today? | 08:36 |
| eantyshev | no | 08:36 |
| anteaya | okay thank you | 08:36 |
| anteaya | so nice to talk to you both every week | 08:36 |
| anteaya | :) | 08:36 |
| anteaya | enjoy the rest of your day | 08:36 |
| anteaya | and see you next week | 08:36 |
| anteaya | #endmeeting | 08:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 08:36 | |
| eantyshev | thanks, see you! | 08:36 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 18 08:36:52 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 08:36 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-08-18-08.05.html | 08:36 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-08-18-08.05.txt | 08:36 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-08-18-08.05.log.html | 08:36 |
| anteaya | :) | 08:37 |
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| alex_xu | #startmeeting nova api | 12:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 18 12:00:09 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is alex_xu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 12:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 12:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_api' | 12:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 12:00 |
| alex_xu | who is here today? | 12:00 |
| gmann_ | o/ | 12:00 |
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| edleafe | o/ | 12:00 |
| alex_xu | hello everyone~ | 12:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | I have a feeling sdague is away, but I might have my weeks mixed up | 12:01 |
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| alex_xu | yea | 12:01 |
| alex_xu | let's get start | 12:01 |
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| alex_xu | #topic actions from last meeting | 12:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:01 | |
| alex_xu | there are two actiosn for sdague~ so we can't ensure this week | 12:02 |
| alex_xu | one from me about cleanup elevated context | 12:02 |
| alex_xu | I created bp for it https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/cleanup-elevated-context | 12:03 |
| alex_xu | that will be M release work item | 12:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | what were the actions for sean? | 12:03 |
| alex_xu | sdague to build experimental devstack/tempest job to test v2.0 on v2.1 | 12:03 |
| alex_xu | sdague to find gerrit query to pull all API changed specs | 12:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool | 12:03 |
| alex_xu | let's check with him when he back, or next week | 12:04 |
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| alex_xu | #action check sdague his action in next week meeting :) | 12:04 |
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| alex_xu | the last one is about checking merge api samples status, and gmann_ in the meeting today, let us talk about that later | 12:05 |
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| gmann_ | experimental devstack/tempest job to test v2.0 on v2.1 is interesting | 12:05 |
| alex_xu | #topic v2.0 on v2.1 | 12:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "v2.0 on v2.1 (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:05 | |
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| alex_xu | gmann_: yea | 12:05 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so this change is interesting: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/214085/3 | 12:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | see the tempest failures | 12:06 |
| alex_xu | #info bp relax-api-validation is finished | 12:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: except, we break tempest | 12:06 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: we remember we said create v2 on v2.1 endpoint after we have tempest experimental job for relax validation? | 12:07 |
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| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: hummm | 12:07 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: emm..... | 12:07 |
| johnthetubaguy | I didn't but that makes some sense | 12:07 |
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| johnthetubaguy | tempest.api.compute.servers.test_server_metadata_negative.ServerMetadataNegativeTestJSON looks to be failing | 12:08 |
| alex_xu | but it's worth take a look at what happend for tempest failure in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/214085/3 | 12:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | I guess thats because of the relaxed validation? | 12:08 |
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| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: alex_xu may be validation is fully relaxed as of v2 | 12:10 |
| alex_xu | not sure, it return 500, looks like some unexpected exception raise up | 12:10 |
| gmann_ | or there might be valid failure as per v2.1 strong validation | 12:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think its just tempest is adding extra props, which we don't check | 12:10 |
| gmann_ | ye, need to look up those | 12:10 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I suspect v2 used to validate that, but v2.1 with relaxed validation is not | 12:10 |
| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: yea seems like that | 12:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | anyway, my idea is to get that patch into liberty | 12:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | default to v2.1 for everything | 12:11 |
| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: in those case we need to put such validation in python code | 12:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | remove v3 endpoint | 12:11 |
| alex_xu | yea | 12:11 |
| edleafe | johnthetubaguy: +1 | 12:12 |
| alex_xu | +1 | 12:12 |
| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: tomorrow i have plan to rebase all merge tests thing and have you patch depends on those | 12:12 |
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| johnthetubaguy | gmann_: my patch does depend on all those already | 12:13 |
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| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: gmann_ means depend on https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:merge_sample_tests,n,z | 12:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | anyways, I think we are agreeing the end goal | 12:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: gmann: ah, OK | 12:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: gmann: not sure thats needed | 12:14 |
| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: on v3 tthings but not on functional tests merge.thats why nova functional job fail | 12:14 |
| gmann_ | yea | 12:14 |
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| johnthetubaguy | gmann: I don't see any test failures after my patch though, unit test wise, its just the tempest issues | 12:14 |
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| johnthetubaguy | anyways, I think the key thing is, v2.1 by default, deprecate v2.0 and remove v3 | 12:15 |
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| johnthetubaguy | now to do that, we might need some tempest tweaks, including those sdague was going to be looking into for us | 12:15 |
| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: i can look tomorrow in JST if i find time | 12:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | gmann: you mean the tempest failures? | 12:16 |
| gmann_ | yea | 12:16 |
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| johnthetubaguy | gmann: cool, that would be good, thanks | 12:16 |
| alex_xu | gmann_: thanks | 12:16 |
| alex_xu | gmann_: I also can give help on it | 12:16 |
| gmann_ | np | 12:16 |
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| gmann_ | alex_xu: sure thanks | 12:16 |
| alex_xu | anyway we are on almost same timezone | 12:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK, I guess we are done with this bit? maybe? | 12:17 |
| gmann_ | alex_xu: yea | 12:17 |
| alex_xu | #action gmann_ and alex_xu take a look at tempest failure of https://review.openstack.org/#/c/214085/3 | 12:17 |
| alex_xu | #topic policy.json updates to remove admin hard code at the db level | 12:17 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "policy.json updates to remove admin hard code at the db level (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:17 | |
| alex_xu | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:bp/nova-api-policy-final-part,n,z | 12:18 |
| alex_xu | The last one patch is ready! | 12:18 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: if you have time, it is easy patch | 12:18 |
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| johnthetubaguy | cool | 12:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | looks good | 12:19 |
| alex_xu | then nothing need to do in Liberty for this, will remove it from the agenda | 12:19 |
| edleafe | yep | 12:19 |
| alex_xu | ok, let's move on | 12:19 |
| alex_xu | #topic Test collapse of v2.0 and v2.1 | 12:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Test collapse of v2.0 and v2.1 (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:20 | |
| alex_xu | already metion a little | 12:20 |
| alex_xu | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:merge_sample_tests,n,z | 12:20 |
| alex_xu | after gmann_ rebase those patch, then we need a lot of review for them | 12:20 |
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| gmann_ | alex_xu: yea, around 80% is done. left out i will finish by tomorrow | 12:21 |
| gmann_ | then those will be ready for review | 12:21 |
| alex_xu | gmann_: so we can remove v3 endpoint after those patches merged, right? | 12:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | do we have a blueprint to track the progress of all this? | 12:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think that would be useful | 12:21 |
| gmann_ | alex_xu: yea, we can remove | 12:21 |
| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: we do not have BP, should i create one? | 12:22 |
| alex_xu | I guess not | 12:22 |
| alex_xu | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/merge_sample_tests | 12:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | gmann_: create one, and pass me the link and I can get that approved | 12:22 |
| alex_xu | as I know, gmann_ use etherpad track them | 12:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | now I think this is lower priority that some of our other efforts, but I could me missing something | 12:22 |
| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: sure | 12:22 |
| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: just BP not spec right? | 12:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | gmann_: yes | 12:23 |
| gmann_ | ok | 12:23 |
| alex_xu | if you want to remove v3 endpoint from api-paste.ini, then it isn't low priority... | 12:23 |
| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: the unit tests pass right now when I removed that, somehow | 12:23 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: yea, the main problem is functional test | 12:24 |
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| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: UT will pass. actually some functional tests use /v3 | 12:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah, so I totally didn't see that one, gotcha | 12:25 |
| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: current merger tests work make them on v2.1 and v2 | 12:25 |
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| alex_xu | almost all the patch at here, the patch review is high priority | 12:26 |
| alex_xu | ok, so no more question for this? | 12:27 |
| alex_xu | ok, let's moving one | 12:27 |
| alex_xu | #topic Removal of v3 naming from source tree | 12:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Removal of v3 naming from source tree (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:27 | |
| alex_xu | all the file moving are done! | 12:27 |
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| edleafe | \o/ | 12:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | so there is the v21 vs no version debate | 12:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, top job on getting the moves done, awesome to see :) | 12:28 |
| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: +1 | 12:28 |
| alex_xu | yea, v2.1 is name for nova new api with microversions | 12:28 |
| alex_xu | and actually v2.1 always bump it's version | 12:28 |
| edleafe | I've always felt that versions in the URL are an anti-pattern | 12:29 |
| alex_xu | so we prefer not mention the version in the code | 12:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | edleafe: sure, but they are there now, sadly | 12:29 |
| edleafe | johnthetubaguy: can you think of a better time to remedy that? | 12:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | edleafe: its too late, I feel | 12:29 |
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| edleafe | we are changing the way we approach versioning | 12:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | edleafe: at least we don't have v2.13 in the URL | 12:29 |
| edleafe | johnthetubaguy: heh | 12:30 |
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| edleafe | that would be horrible | 12:30 |
| edleafe | but it shows that versions simply don't belong there | 12:30 |
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| gmann_ | and it will difficult to remove as uri has tenant-id also | 12:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | so we are keeping compatiblity with the old APIs, so the /v2 and /v1.1 have to stay | 12:31 |
| alex_xu | gmann_: yea, it also a problem | 12:31 |
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| johnthetubaguy | unfortunately, we have already released v2.1, so that has to stay too | 12:31 |
| alex_xu | anyway look like we have agreement on this. | 12:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, lets talk about liberty | 12:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | the class names | 12:31 |
| edleafe | how about /v∞ | 12:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | what should they be | 12:31 |
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| johnthetubaguy | edleafe: sure | 12:32 |
| edleafe | :) | 12:32 |
| alex_xu | I'm working on update this https://review.openstack.org/212734 | 12:32 |
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| edleafe | class names: definitely not V3; probably V21 for now | 12:33 |
| alex_xu | remove the V21 prefix from the class name | 12:33 |
| edleafe | we can always change in M | 12:33 |
| edleafe | when we drop v2 | 12:33 |
| gmann_ | alex_xu: me also on side to not hve v21 in class nme | 12:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | so the worse case, is leaving v3 in there | 12:34 |
| alex_xu | edleafe: is it ok for you? let's remove it for now, as we already touch them | 12:34 |
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| edleafe | alex_xu: sure | 12:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | as long as v3 goes, I am happy really | 12:34 |
| alex_xu | I think we needn't remove V21 form those test class https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/tests/unit/api/openstack/compute/test_access_ips.py#L32 | 12:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | so here is the thing | 12:34 |
| edleafe | I was thinking more gradual until the dual-support ends, but I'd love to get rid of it now | 12:35 |
| alex_xu | that is used to distinguish v2 and v2.1 unittest in the same file, after we remove v2 code and test, we cleanup them | 12:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | v3 -> v21 might be better to be consistent with those other ones | 12:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | then maybe we remove all v21 when we drop the v2 code (probably in O release) | 12:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | so I have a lean towards v21 for the moment | 12:36 |
| alex_xu | ok, if we think keep V21 for now is more clear, I'm ok with that | 12:37 |
| gmann_ | plan looks good | 12:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | just in terms of consistency I guess | 12:37 |
| edleafe | johnthetubaguy: that's pretty much what I was thinkning | 12:37 |
| alex_xu | yea | 12:37 |
| edleafe | thinking, even | 12:37 |
| alex_xu | ok, I needn't update the patch | 12:37 |
| alex_xu | ok, so we have consistency now, let's move on | 12:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool | 12:38 |
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| alex_xu | #topic API Documentation Improvement | 12:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "API Documentation Improvement (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:38 | |
| edleafe | so we're keeping V21 in class names and URLs? | 12:38 |
| annegentle | what I woke up for! | 12:38 |
| edleafe | morning, annegentle! | 12:38 |
| alex_xu | edleafe: V21 in class, not URL | 12:38 |
| alex_xu | annegentle: morning | 12:38 |
| alex_xu | edleafe: use '/v2' in the unittest | 12:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | edleafe: its in there, and we released the API already, don't think we have a choice now | 12:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | edleafe: / is the API that lists the available versions | 12:39 |
| edleafe | alex_xu: you should record those with the #agreed action | 12:40 |
| alex_xu | ha, we have such command | 12:40 |
| edleafe | johnthetubaguy: understood. Not ideal, but necessary at this point | 12:40 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I think its the best option of those we had available at the time | 12:40 |
| edleafe | alex_xu: yeah, I think only the chair can use that one | 12:41 |
| alex_xu | #agreed use V21 for class name for consistency now. After v2 api removed, we will remove V21 prefix from the class name also | 12:41 |
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| alex_xu | #agreed use '/v2' in the unittest that is consistency with existed unittest | 12:41 |
| alex_xu | back to the doc | 12:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think we might need to change the unit tests, eventually, but yeah, lets not worry about that for now, its docs time | 12:42 |
| annegentle | alex_xu: did you get a chance to look at fairy-slipper? | 12:42 |
| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: +1. i have plan to do that | 12:42 |
| alex_xu | annegentle: yea, I take a look at few weeks ago, but honest a little hard to get understand it | 12:43 |
| annegentle | Also I've updated the API docs spec to describe how to write conceptual information https://review.openstack.org/#/c/209669/ | 12:43 |
| alex_xu | annegentle: any doc how to use it, and how it structure | 12:43 |
| annegentle | you can write more content in nova/docs/ and we'll publish to developer.openstack.org | 12:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | so, just for the avoidance of doubt, docs are the most important API issue to get straight this release, and we have lost our way a little on that | 12:43 |
| annegentle | alex_xu: no, sorry, and I know that's a big limiter. So far I know this: | 12:43 |
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| annegentle | run migrate.sh to clone a copy of the api-site and then look for errors in the WADL | 12:44 |
| gmann_ | alex_xu: annegentle : does fairy-slipper does same as json-home? | 12:44 |
| annegentle | run a pecan server to serve the Swagger and RST content | 12:44 |
| gmann_ | as we have pln for json-home which generate api info from mapper | 12:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | do we still have WADL for all our different versions? | 12:44 |
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| annegentle | gmann_: fairy-slipper should let us serve reference content | 12:45 |
| annegentle | #link http://fairy-slipper.russellsim.org/swagger-ui-jensoleg/#!/images/get_tenant_id_images | 12:45 |
| annegentle | that's an example | 12:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | annegentle: do you have examples where it deals with version changes? | 12:45 |
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| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: for v2 and 21 yes and fairy-slipper has helped detect where the source doc is wrong | 12:45 |
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| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: not yet I have a related question for this group tho | 12:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | annegentle: we have lots and lots of versions though now | 12:46 |
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| gmann_ | annegentle: Thanks. ll look | 12:46 |
| annegentle | Inheritance or annotation? Examples: | 12:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/api/openstack/rest_api_version_history.rst | 12:47 |
| annegentle | :http:get /image/ | 12:47 |
| annegentle | :inherits: /image/@>1.1 | 12:47 |
| annegentle | or | 12:47 |
| annegentle | (oh followed by) | 12:47 |
| annegentle | :parameter image_id: an image id | 12:47 |
| annegentle | or | 12:47 |
| annegentle | :parameter image_id@>1.1<3.0: an image id | 12:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | it could be removal or addition, technically, in a new version | 12:47 |
| annegentle | so the parameter exists in versions greater than 1.1 but less than 3.0 and would only appear in the documentation within that version range | 12:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | so I guess its a whole new doc tree for each version? | 12:48 |
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| johnthetubaguy | do the users get to see "changes" since the last version inside those docs at all? | 12:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am thinking about the python docs | 12:48 |
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| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: What we talked about is the drop down list next to Version: here https://libgit2.github.com/libgit2/#HEAD | 12:49 |
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| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: how that's sourced I don't recall | 12:49 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I was thinking something more like this: https://docs.python.org/2/library/unittest.html#unittest.TestCase.setUpClass | 12:49 |
| johnthetubaguy | but in a REST API sense | 12:49 |
| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: that's what that above question about params tries to encapsulate | 12:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | annegentle: yeah, gotcha, I think | 12:51 |
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| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: I think that the versions will be sourced from the python code so all different versions of the doc will be in that doc string | 12:51 |
| annegentle | we'll want to make nav consistent for every API | 12:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | annegentle: yeah, that makes sense | 12:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | so we need to get to a point of generating the docs | 12:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | who is taking on that job? | 12:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | at least scoping the scale of the problem | 12:52 |
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| annegentle | I can run the code locally now, but Russell Sim is working on the display/rendering. I'd like a volunteer to ensure they understand the decisions / output for microversions | 12:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am sensing a tumble weed | 12:54 |
| annegentle | so don't feel like you're signing up for a huge pile of work. | 12:54 |
| annegentle | heh | 12:54 |
| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: send out a call for help | 12:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I kinda want the subteam to own the call for help here, but happy to back that up if needed | 12:54 |
| annegentle | #link https://github.com/russell/fairy-slipper | 12:54 |
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| johnthetubaguy | annegentle: so is the ask, look at the sample stuff thats been rendered and check it? | 12:55 |
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| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: look at the code base, ensure you understand what it's doing, correct if it isn't going to work for nova | 12:55 |
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| johnthetubaguy | OK, got it | 12:56 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so does anyone know if we have up to date WADL | 12:56 |
| alex_xu | sorry, I reboot the laptop.... | 12:56 |
| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: we've caught and fixed WADL source bugs (still working on one myself) | 12:56 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I get the impression thats a no? | 12:56 |
| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: this tool detects errors in the WADL | 12:56 |
| johnthetubaguy | annegentle: where is the WADL coming from, I don't remember us updating that ever | 12:56 |
| alex_xu | I can help on any microversion question | 12:57 |
| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: right it is in the api-site repo and authored over years | 12:57 |
| alex_xu | annegentle: is there gerrit for https://github.com/russell/fairy-slipper? | 12:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | annegentle: thats what I was worried about, its not auto generated | 12:58 |
| annegentle | alex_xu: no, but we think it can live as a common library | 12:58 |
| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: this migration process will then autogenerate swagger | 12:58 |
| annegentle | johnthetubaguy: the wadl conversion is a baseline to compare | 12:58 |
| alex_xu | we are run out of time, have to move on | 12:58 |
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| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: what topics did we not cover today? | 12:59 |
| annegentle | #help Take a look at https://github.com/russell/fairy-slipper | 12:59 |
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| alex_xu | no exactly | 12:59 |
| alex_xu | #topic open | 12:59 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "open (Meeting topic: nova api)" | 12:59 | |
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| gmann_ | annegentle: Thanks. ll look sometime | 12:59 |
| annegentle | With less than 60 days until release it's crucial we get this doc generation working. I know I'm "preaching to the choir" | 12:59 |
| alex_xu | sorry just jump to open, avoid some body need help in open | 12:59 |
| gmann_ | johnthetubaguy: BP for test merge - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/test-collapse-v2-and-v21 | 13:00 |
| alex_xu | annegentle: yea, will try to undersand fairy-slipper again | 13:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | alex_xu: can you ask on the ML for some help with this? | 13:00 |
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| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: you mean fairy-slipper? | 13:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah | 13:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | we need that doing 4 weeks ago, basically | 13:00 |
| alex_xu | johnthetubaguy: yea, that is right way | 13:01 |
| alex_xu | sorry, we have to close the meeting | 13:01 |
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| johnthetubaguy | we do, lets move on | 13:01 |
| alex_xu | #endmeeting | 13:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 13:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 18 13:01:31 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 13:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-08-18-12.00.html | 13:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-08-18-12.00.txt | 13:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-08-18-12.00.log.html | 13:01 |
| gmann_ | Thanks all | 13:01 |
| alex_xu | thanks all | 13:01 |
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| yanyanhu | #startmeeting senlin | 13:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 18 13:02:07 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yanyanhu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'senlin' | 13:02 |
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| yanyanhu | hello | 13:02 |
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| yanyanhu | Qiming is still in travel and can't join the meeting tonight | 13:03 |
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| yanyanhu | so if you guys have anything want to update, please feel free to add it to the agenda, thanks | 13:03 |
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| yanyanhu | will wait for a while. If there is no topic we want to discuss, will just skip this meeting | 13:06 |
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| yanyanhu | hi, haiwei | 13:11 |
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| haiwei | hi | 13:11 |
| yanyanhu | I guess other guys haven't joined | 13:11 |
| haiwei | only both of us? | 13:12 |
| yanyanhu | planned to do some update about current workitem | 13:12 |
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| yanyanhu | seems so | 13:12 |
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| yanyanhu | but I think if just two of us, maybe we just skip this meeting? | 13:12 |
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| haiwei | it is ok i think | 13:14 |
| haiwei | the network in my home is really bad | 13:14 |
| haiwei | I thought I can't attend this room | 13:15 |
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| yanyan | just dropped when I was typing 'me too'... | 13:16 |
| haiwei | yanyanhu, about this week's plan, I will try to finish the exception handling of other driver modules | 13:16 |
| yanyan | network is not very stable, I'm using my phone as hot spot | 13:16 |
| haiwei | haha | 13:16 |
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| yanyan | :) | 13:16 |
| yanyan | cool | 13:16 |
| yanyan | I think we need to fix the test case issue | 13:17 |
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| haiwei | ok, don't need to bear it | 13:17 |
| yanyan | it blocked the progress of rework exception handling of keystone driver | 13:17 |
| yanyan | ok | 13:17 |
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| yanyan | so will try to recheck those open patches and merge some of them | 13:17 |
| haiwei | ok | 13:18 |
| yanyan | I will keeping working on functional test | 13:18 |
| haiwei | cool | 13:18 |
| yanyan | I think the basic workflow has been ok now | 13:18 |
| yanyan | the first test case can be run correctly in gate | 13:18 |
| haiwei | I will join that job too, if I have time | 13:18 |
| yanyan | nice :) | 13:18 |
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| haiwei | ok, that's all for the meeting | 13:19 |
| haiwei | see you tomorrow | 13:19 |
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| yanyan | ok, see U | 13:19 |
| yanyan | will end the meeting | 13:19 |
| yanyan | thanks | 13:20 |
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| yanyan | #endmeeting | 13:20 |
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| yanyan | umm, seems after relogging, I'm not the chair of the meeting... | 13:22 |
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| yanyanhu | #endmeeting | 13:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 13:24 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 18 13:24:33 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 13:24 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-08-18-13.02.html | 13:24 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-08-18-13.02.txt | 13:24 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-08-18-13.02.log.html | 13:24 |
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| krtaylor | #startmeeting third-party | 17:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 18 17:01:46 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is krtaylor. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 17:01 |
| krtaylor | hey everybody, its that time again | 17:02 |
| krtaylor | anyone here for CI working group? | 17:02 |
| rfolco | o/ | 17:02 |
| mmedvede | hey krtaylor | 17:02 |
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| patrickeast | hey | 17:02 |
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| krtaylor | hi rfolco mmedvede patrickeast | 17:03 |
| krtaylor | patrickeast, havent seen you in a while | 17:03 |
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| sweston | \o | 17:04 |
| krtaylor | here's the agenda for today: | 17:04 |
| asselin_ | hi, I'm half here | 17:04 |
| krtaylor | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty#8.2F18.2F15_1700_UTC | 17:04 |
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| krtaylor | hi sweston asselin_ | 17:04 |
| sweston | hi krtaylor | 17:04 |
| krtaylor | any quick announcements? deadlines? | 17:05 |
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| krtaylor | none on the agenda | 17:05 |
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| krtaylor | #topic Common CI | 17:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Common CI (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:06 | |
| krtaylor | asselin_ I understand if you are too busy to discuss | 17:06 |
| krtaylor | LOTS of patches | 17:07 |
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| krtaylor | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:downstream-puppet,n,z | 17:07 |
| asselin_ | no updates from me. Still working through patches and reviews. There's progress which is good news. | 17:07 |
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| krtaylor | several look really close to merge | 17:07 |
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| krtaylor | ok, next then | 17:09 |
| krtaylor | #topic Spec to have infra host scoreboard | 17:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Spec to have infra host scoreboard (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:09 | |
| krtaylor | this is moving along | 17:09 |
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| krtaylor | although not NEARLY as fast as we were hoping when jeblair and I first discussed this idea | 17:10 |
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| krtaylor | the idea was to push this out fast, then start working on radar | 17:10 |
| krtaylor | sigh | 17:10 |
| mmedvede | the main block is that it would not be as temporarily as initially was intended | 17:11 |
| krtaylor | anyway, it should be fairily close if we can et reviewers | 17:11 |
| krtaylor | why couldn't it be mmedvede ? | 17:11 |
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| sweston | what can folks do to hurry it along? | 17:11 |
| patrickeast | ill try and take another look at it today | 17:11 |
| * patrickeast has been busy with cinder things :( | 17:11 | |
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| mmedvede | because we are asking infra team to deploy it, there needs to be infrastructure for maintaining it | 17:12 |
| krtaylor | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194437/ | 17:12 |
| mmedvede | I am writing puppet module to deploy scoreboard. Almost done | 17:12 |
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| krtaylor | it would be good to get more reviews so I could stop having to push a refresh for every nit | 17:13 |
| sweston | can this be set up in such a way that when we are ready to suggest radar hosting, it can be easily dropped in? | 17:14 |
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| mmedvede | patrickeast: should we name puppet module puppet-ci_scoreboard or puppet-scoreboard? | 17:14 |
| krtaylor | mmedvede, for the naming, there are so many dashboards now proposed, I felt it added clarity without too much overhead | 17:14 |
| krtaylor | but will change it if you feel strongly about it | 17:15 |
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| krtaylor | sweston, that is the intention, at least the url, vm, etc would be there | 17:15 |
| sweston | krtaylor: good enough | 17:15 |
| mmedvede | krtaylor: no strong feelings. If people agree with naming, need more opinions | 17:16 |
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| patrickeast | yea i don't really have strong feelings on the puppet module naming either | 17:16 |
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| krtaylor | darn white space, I checked it too (then added that line) sigh | 17:17 |
| krtaylor | anyway, new patchset pushed just now | 17:17 |
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| krtaylor | check it out and review, the more +1's we get on it, the more likely that the infra folks will assist | 17:17 |
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| mmedvede | krtaylor: my -1 was not about whitespace. I try not to -1 for style | 17:18 |
| sweston | Will do | 17:18 |
| mmedvede | it was for section still missing about gerrit account requirement | 17:18 |
| krtaylor | mmedvede, understood, all good, I didn't think so | 17:19 |
| krtaylor | oh, I didn't add that, crap | 17:19 |
| krtaylor | will do | 17:19 |
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| krtaylor | mmedvede, what do you think? I feel like it should have it's own id | 17:20 |
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| krtaylor | anyone else have any comments on the hosting spec? | 17:21 |
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| mmedvede | krtaylor: it might be a necessity | 17:21 |
| krtaylor | mmedvede, agreed | 17:21 |
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| mmedvede | patrickeast: do you think the scoreboard would be able to handle the load once it is used by more people? | 17:21 |
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| krtaylor | mmedvede, I based this spec on other hosting specs, and it was not mentioned in them, it may be a "given" | 17:21 |
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| mmedvede | patrickeast: is uses flask. I know it is possible to also use apache along flask to make it more resilient | 17:22 |
| patrickeast | mmedvede: maybe, my biggest concern would be how it is serving static files we should at some point switch it to using apache or something | 17:22 |
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| patrickeast | mmedvede: yea exactly | 17:22 |
| krtaylor | or put that work into radar | 17:22 |
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| patrickeast | mmedvede: it should be ok, the one i have in a little aws vm uses like <2GB of ram peak and like .1 cpu load on average | 17:23 |
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| mmedvede | krtaylor: hmm, maybe. I wanted to make the account requirement explicit, so infra team knows what they are getting into :) | 17:23 |
| patrickeast | mmedvede: i don't anticipate a ton more folks would start hitting it | 17:23 |
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| krtaylor | .1, that much :) | 17:23 |
| krtaylor | mmedvede, I'll add it right after this, thought I did | 17:24 |
| krtaylor | too many tasks atm | 17:24 |
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| mmedvede | patrickeast: I remember you aws instance was down sometimes, did you figure out the reason? | 17:24 |
| patrickeast | ' 17:21:11 up 169 days, 16:59, 1 user, load average: 0.10, 0.10, 0.13 ' | 17:24 |
| patrickeast | from uptime | 17:24 |
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| patrickeast | mmedvede: its something wrong with flask/python socket handling, i haven't tracked it down yet but also haven't had much time to look at it | 17:25 |
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| mmedvede | patrickeast: I think after official announcement, the ci-dashboard.o.o might get more traffic. We can try to harden it, but it would be easier once it is running. | 17:26 |
| patrickeast | mmedvede: would probably be fixed if we migrate towards an apache integrated solution | 17:26 |
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| krtaylor | mmedvede, I am proposing a Work Item to create a user account for 'ci-dashboard' | 17:27 |
| krtaylor | see any problems with that? | 17:27 |
| krtaylor | thought a generic account name could be reused for whatever solution is deployed in the future | 17:28 |
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| mmedvede | krtaylor: the thing is, it would need to be account managed by infra team | 17:29 |
| mmedvede | e.g. they would need to manage private ssh key | 17:29 |
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| krtaylor | mmedvede, wouldn't that be a work item? | 17:29 |
| krtaylor | so you are thinking a dependency? | 17:30 |
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| mmedvede | krtaylor: Are you talking about work item inside the spec? | 17:31 |
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| krtaylor | yes, in the Work Item section | 17:31 |
| krtaylor | I can note that it would need to be created and maintained by the infra team | 17:32 |
| mmedvede | +1 | 17:32 |
| krtaylor | since none of us have that acls | 17:32 |
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| krtaylor | ok, cool, I'll finish that asap | 17:33 |
| krtaylor | any other comments on hosting the dashboard spec? | 17:33 |
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| krtaylor | BTW, lightning session topic: "Using CI Dashboard to check on a CI system's health" | 17:34 |
| krtaylor | for Tokyo | 17:34 |
| krtaylor | I'm just sayin.... :) | 17:34 |
| krtaylor | ok, let's move on | 17:35 |
| krtaylor | #topic Radar spec | 17:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Radar spec (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:35 | |
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| krtaylor | sweston graciously moved the spec to our third party tool repo | 17:36 |
| krtaylor | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/211713/ | 17:36 |
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| krtaylor | so, there are two ways to address this | 17:37 |
| krtaylor | 1) is to merge it then patch it for spec changes | 17:37 |
| krtaylor | 2) is to wait till we all agree on its content them merge it meaning that the design is complete | 17:37 |
| krtaylor | I am leaning toward 1 | 17:37 |
| krtaylor | comments? | 17:37 |
| mmedvede | the (2) kind of defeats the purpose of moving it | 17:38 |
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| sweston | I am leaning toward 1 as well, this spec has been hanging too long for approval, and it is blocking progress | 17:38 |
| mmedvede | we could work on it at its original location | 17:38 |
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| krtaylor | well, moving it always implied that it would be re-proposed to infra after we worked on it | 17:38 |
| krtaylor | mmedvede, yes, long history here, it was agreed to move it | 17:39 |
| krtaylor | mmedvede, that would have been the preferred approach, but it was too confusing for some reason | 17:40 |
| krtaylor | we can't wait to improve CI system trust | 17:40 |
| krtaylor | the sytems that are busting their behinds to push reliable results need to be trusted | 17:41 |
| krtaylor | and in order to do that we have to show developers the test results | 17:41 |
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| krtaylor | hence, the tactical/strategic approach | 17:42 |
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| sweston | krtaylor: +1 | 17:42 |
| * krtaylor gets off his soapbox | 17:42 | |
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| krtaylor | so, do we agree on merging it first, then patching design ideas and corrections? | 17:43 |
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| krtaylor | if no one disagrees, then I'll merge it this afternoon | 17:44 |
| sweston | krtaylor: I vote for merging it as it is now. I will be writing Gerrit queries and integrating some data into Radar over the next two weeks, and I would prefer to have the spec approved | 17:44 |
| patrickeast | +1 for merging it | 17:44 |
| mmedvede | hard for me to have a good opinion, I did not work on many specs to understand what is best, so I abstain :) | 17:45 |
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| asselin_ | +1 merge | 17:45 |
| krtaylor | done | 17:45 |
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| krtaylor | so, next up | 17:46 |
| krtaylor | #topic Patches | 17:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Patches (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:46 | |
| krtaylor | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:stackforge/third-party-ci-tools+status:open,n,z | 17:46 |
| * krtaylor looking | 17:47 | |
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| patrickeast | i need to update my FC passthrough one | 17:47 |
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| patrickeast | asselin_: did you and hemnafk figure out how to get the offline check one to work? | 17:48 |
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| asselin_ | patrickeast, that's on hold a bit | 17:48 |
| krtaylor | patrickeast, looks like some minor changes | 17:49 |
| asselin_ | patrickeast, I'd like to get your landed first, and then look at detaching at the end of the job | 17:49 |
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| krtaylor | patrickeast, explain offline check? | 17:49 |
| asselin_ | and then include the offline check | 17:49 |
| patrickeast | krtaylor: the HBA's can get into an 'offline' state | 17:49 |
| patrickeast | krtaylor: and then the passthrough will fail | 17:49 |
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| patrickeast | krtaylor: the idea is to have some notification early on that it is happening | 17:50 |
| patrickeast | asselin_: that makes sense | 17:50 |
| krtaylor | ah, interesting, thanks for the education | 17:50 |
| asselin_ | patrickeast, or include that check adter the detach before the attach | 17:50 |
| asselin_ | patrickeast, perhaps we can make it more general, when fc fails altogether, send an e-mail (if configured) | 17:51 |
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| patrickeast | asselin_: yea i was thinking it might be a better nagios kind of check since they don't seem to recover automatically | 17:52 |
| patrickeast | needs some manual intervention (right now) | 17:52 |
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| krtaylor | ah, it is well documented in the next patch, my bad | 17:53 |
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| krtaylor | so a quick open discussion then | 17:54 |
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| krtaylor | #topic Open Discussion | 17:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:54 | |
| mmedvede | krtaylor: there was another topic, about stackforge migration | 17:54 |
| mmedvede | small thing - we need to remember to add our repo to the list | 17:54 |
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| mmedvede | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2015-August/003069.html | 17:54 |
| krtaylor | ah, just added, I needed to refresh | 17:54 |
| mmedvede | that is all for that :). I do not believe there is a wiki page yet | 17:55 |
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| krtaylor | mmedvede, yeah, not seeing a page yet | 17:56 |
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| krtaylor | but it is good to keep that on the agenda, we don't want to miss the "move" | 17:57 |
| krtaylor | thanks mmedvede | 17:57 |
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| krtaylor | any other topics? | 17:57 |
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| asselin_ | I've been running into a recent issue with nodepool and juno openstack clouds. | 17:58 |
| patrickeast | asselin_: i have been having issues with it too, what problem are you getting? | 17:58 |
| asselin_ | don't update unnecessarily...still working on the fix | 17:58 |
| asselin_ | {"error": {"message": "Project ID not found: admin (Disable debug mode to suppress these details.)", "code": 401, "title": "Unauthorized"}}[ | 17:59 |
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| asselin_ | {"error": {"message": "User e082a15d2e6b490ba8329e60e7f092ea is unauthorized for tenant admin (Disable debug mode to suppress these details.)", "code": 401, "title": "Unauthorized"}}[ | 17:59 |
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| krtaylor | thanks everyone! | 17:59 |
| sweston | Thanks!! | 18:00 |
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| krtaylor | #endmeeting | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 18 18:00:13 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-08-18-17.01.html | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-08-18-17.01.txt | 18:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-08-18-17.01.log.html | 18:00 |
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| breton | authorized? Someone said auth? | 18:00 |
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| breton | o/ | 18:00 |
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| henrynash | the sun’s over yee yard armmm | 18:01 |
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| dstanek | ping ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rharwood, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, stevemar, topol, vivekd, wanghong | 18:01 |
| lbragstad | dstanek: o/ | 18:01 |
| ericksonsantos | o/ | 18:01 |
| morgan_2549 | o/ | 18:01 |
| tsymanczyk | o/ | 18:01 |
| samueldmq | hey o/ | 18:01 |
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| raildo | o_ | 18:01 |
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| jamielennox | o/ | 18:01 |
| dstanek | that's a terrible roll call | 18:02 |
| browne | hi | 18:02 |
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| rodrigods | hi | 18:02 |
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| henrynash | je suis ici | 18:02 |
| stevemar | dstanek: o/ | 18:02 |
| dstanek | #startmeeting keystone | 18:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 18 18:02:53 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dstanek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:02 |
| samueldmq | henrynash, très bien :) | 18:02 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:02 |
| dstanek | not a ton today! | 18:03 |
| dstanek | #topic Agenda | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Agenda (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:03 | |
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| dstanek | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:03 |
| dstanek | lbragstad: you in here? | 18:03 |
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| * stevemar will probably be a bit quiet while he finishes up lunch | 18:03 | |
| lbragstad | dstanek: yep | 18:03 |
| ayoung | oyez | 18:03 |
| dstanek | #topic Voting on SPFE for IdP Specific WebSSO | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Voting on SPFE for IdP Specific WebSSO (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:03 | |
| dstanek | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/199339/2 is the spec | 18:03 |
| henrynash | type and chew, type and chew | 18:03 |
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| dstanek | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-August/071131.html is the mailing list discussion | 18:03 |
| dstanek | lbragstad: go fer it | 18:03 |
| lbragstad | is jamielennox here? | 18:03 |
| jamielennox | ya | 18:04 |
| lbragstad | cool, just wanted to get an idea for how people felt about this as an SPFE? | 18:04 |
| lbragstad | I think what jamielennox has is a good solution for the public cloud cases | 18:04 |
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| stevemar | +1 on it being a spfe | 18:04 |
| lbragstad | (which have been brought up and highlighted on the mailing list) | 18:04 |
| ayoung | the current is too limiting...need what jamielennox is proposing for any sane deployment | 18:04 |
| dstanek | lbragstad: want to give the 10 second overview? | 18:05 |
| lbragstad | basically, | 18:05 |
| henrynash | (and how much code are we talkin’ here) | 18:05 |
| lbragstad | we would be adding a call to keystone federation that would allow us to get federated authentication based on the IdP id | 18:05 |
| lbragstad | and the protocol | 18:05 |
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| lbragstad | like this call; https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/master/keystone/contrib/federation/routers.py#L80-L81 | 18:06 |
| lbragstad | but specific for an IdP | 18:06 |
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| dstanek | henrynash: when we were talking about it last week it didn't seem like a lot | 18:06 |
| henrynash | dstanek: that would be my guess | 18:07 |
| stevemar | henrynash: very little new code | 18:07 |
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| lbragstad | so, it would kinda look like http://goo.gl/80yyjF | 18:07 |
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| stevemar | it should just be the new route, thats about it | 18:07 |
| dstanek | questions, comments or concerns? or just vote? | 18:07 |
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| lbragstad | where step 3 would be the new stuff being added in the SPFE | 18:07 |
| lbragstad | so, this part - /v3/OS-FEDERATION/identity_providers/{idp_id}/protocol/{protocol_id}/websso/ | 18:08 |
| topol | o/ | 18:08 |
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| jamielennox | so i consider this a blocker for doing some of chadwick's horizon based discovery, or properly running a lot of different protocols on the same websso page, the concern is obviously how close we are to feature freeze | 18:09 |
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| ayoung | I think it is fine...won't break anyone | 18:09 |
| jamielennox | but i expect if we get the go ahead there can be code up in the next day or two and it should be a relatively easy revie | 18:09 |
| jamielennox | w | 18:09 |
| ayoung | existing code will run fine | 18:09 |
| dstanek | if we are really talking about a route and a few controller lines is there much risk or regressions elsewhere? | 18:10 |
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| lbragstad | I'm stepping up to sponsor this, so i'll have eyes on reviews as soon as they are posted | 18:10 |
| jamielennox | it's more of a refactoring of existing code than anything new | 18:10 |
| dstanek | who will be coding it? | 18:10 |
| lbragstad | I can help out with the coding, but I'd feel comfortable if jamielennox reviewed it | 18:11 |
| stevemar | spec says jamie or lance :) | 18:11 |
| jamielennox | lbragstad and I will manage between us | 18:11 |
| lbragstad | jamielennox: ++ | 18:11 |
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| dstanek | ok, then we can hold both of your feet to the fire | 18:11 |
| dstanek | #startvote Approve SPFE for IdP Specific WebSSO? yes,no,dont_care | 18:11 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: Approve SPFE for IdP Specific WebSSO? Valid vote options are yes, no, dont_care. | 18:11 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 18:11 |
| henrynash | so I minded to support this….my concren is whether manyof our cores are off coding real late in the cycle and not available for reviews…and we have some big stuff yet to get in (e.g. reseller) | 18:12 |
| stevemar | #vote yes | 18:12 |
| lbragstad | #vote yes | 18:12 |
| ayoung | #vote yes | 18:12 |
| rodrigods | #vote yes | 18:12 |
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| stevemar | henrynash: reasonable thing to be worried about | 18:12 |
| bknudson | #vote yes | 18:12 |
| raildo | #vote yes | 18:12 |
| bknudson | why do we even have a spec freeze? | 18:13 |
| stevemar | bknudson: process for the sake of proces | 18:13 |
| morgan_2549 | #vote dont_care | 18:13 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: at least it makes things difficult at this point | 18:13 |
| henrynash | #vote no (even though I love the feature…we need cores doing reviews) | 18:13 |
| openstack | henrynash: no (even though I love the feature…we need cores doing reviews) is not a valid option. Valid options are yes, no, dont_care. | 18:13 |
| henrynash | #vote no | 18:13 |
| dstanek | #vote i'll let the cards fall where they fall | 18:13 |
| openstack | dstanek: i'll let the cards fall where they fall is not a valid option. Valid options are yes, no, dont_care. | 18:14 |
| bknudson | I agree with henrynash but if cores don't want to do reviews they're not going to do them. | 18:14 |
| ayoung | henrynash, this is a small one code wise, but big feature for end users | 18:14 |
| dstanek | bknudson, henrynash: yeah, we definitely need more reviews | 18:14 |
| breton | #vote yes | 18:14 |
| dstanek | vote closing in 5.. | 18:14 |
| jamielennox | #vote yes | 18:14 |
| henrynash | ayoung: I’m sure that’s true….but.... | 18:14 |
| bknudson | 5 hours? | 18:14 |
| jamielennox | and i was thinking about it.. | 18:14 |
| ayoung | it allows a singe IdP to support multipe protocols for Federation | 18:14 |
| lbragstad | bknudson: long running votes | 18:14 |
| dstanek | #endvote | 18:14 |
| openstack | Voted on "Approve SPFE for IdP Specific WebSSO?" Results are | 18:14 |
| openstack | yes (8): rodrigods, lbragstad, ayoung, bknudson, jamielennox, raildo, breton, stevemar | 18:14 |
| openstack | dont_care (1): morgan_2549 | 18:14 |
| henrynash | ayoung: I love the fetaure, don’t get me wrounf | 18:14 |
| openstack | no (1): henrynash | 18:14 |
| dstanek | bknudson: nope, done ... need to move on! | 18:15 |
| lbragstad | thanks all | 18:15 |
| dstanek | roxanaghe_: you here? | 18:15 |
| roxanaghe_ | dstanek, yes | 18:15 |
| ayoung | henrynash, we need to push right up until Milestone 3. There is not enough time to get work done in the release the way we have things tstrucutured nw | 18:15 |
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| dstanek | #action lbragstad and/or jamielennox to code up the IdP specific WebSSO flow | 18:15 |
| dstanek | #topic Change default endpoint type for Keystone v3 to 'public' | 18:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Change default endpoint type for Keystone v3 to 'public' (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:15 | |
| dstanek | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/185200/ is the review | 18:16 |
| dstanek | roxanaghe_: you're up | 18:16 |
| jamielennox | i would suggest we revist next week where we want to have things more or less merged | 18:16 |
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| roxanaghe_ | ok, so this review has been sitting there for a while | 18:16 |
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| roxanaghe_ | we need a decision | 18:16 |
| dstanek | jamielennox: ++ | 18:16 |
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| roxanaghe_ | it's about changing default endpoint type for v3 keystone to public | 18:16 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox, ++ for all the big subjects we are planning to get this cycle | 18:16 |
| roxanaghe_ | all other services have public by default | 18:17 |
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| roxanaghe_ | but there are concerns about breaking stuff if we just change it like that | 18:17 |
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| breton | ++ for that | 18:17 |
| breton | *for the switch | 18:17 |
| jamielennox | i'm pretty sure this is changed using sessions | 18:17 |
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| jamielennox | looking for the code to back me up there | 18:18 |
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| ayoung | what does that mean "default" anyway? | 18:19 |
| Haneef__ | All the services use public_endpoint from catalog except keystone. | 18:19 |
| jamielennox | https://github.com/openstack/python-keystoneclient/blob/master/keystoneclient/auth/identity/base.py#L313 | 18:19 |
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| jamielennox | so to my understanding this was the compromise to having fixed this in the past | 18:20 |
| jamielennox | that if you use the Client(session) format without specifying an interface you would get public | 18:20 |
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| tim_o | asselin? | 18:20 |
| jamielennox | (because i completely agree the admin default is wrong) | 18:20 |
| dstanek | jamielennox: does that mean we don't need the proposed change or that it's likely to break less than we think? | 18:21 |
| roxanaghe_ | jamielennox, from what I saw the default is in httpclient and is the same for v2 and v3: admin | 18:21 |
| bknudson | for v2 if you use the public interface then a lot of calls aren't going to work. | 18:21 |
| jamielennox | dstanek: given that the admin and public interface for v3 is the same it's probably not going to break as much as i would think | 18:22 |
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| jamielennox | roxanaghe_: if you use session then it should do it's best to skip httpclient | 18:22 |
| Haneef__ | We want to make this change only for keystone v3, as v2 is bit differnet. In v2 only subset of apis are exposed at public endpoint. That is the reason why defaulted to admin | 18:22 |
| bknudson | so maybe applications can already opt-in to the behavior by using sessions. | 18:23 |
| bknudson | and it's deprecated to not use a session | 18:23 |
| jamielennox | oh, blah https://github.com/openstack/python-keystoneclient/blob/master/keystoneclient/httpclient.py#L237 | 18:23 |
| roxanaghe_ | jamielennox, ok, I'm not sure if the current code goes that code flow | 18:23 |
| roxanaghe_ | jamielennox - yes, that's the line | 18:24 |
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| jamielennox | ok, so v3 default is going to end up as admin | 18:24 |
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| jamielennox | umm | 18:24 |
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| roxanaghe_ | so since no value is passed at that point it will get the default admin | 18:25 |
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| roxanaghe_ | so are there any concerns if we switch? | 18:25 |
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| ayoung | lets just drop v2, and then admin,public is ireelevant | 18:26 |
| jamielennox | ok, i think we can change that | 18:26 |
| jamielennox | it's a behaviour change but i would be very surprised if anyone is relying upon it | 18:26 |
| bknudson | I'm concerned that it will break somebody. | 18:26 |
| dstanek | what about bknudson's worry about breaking existing applications? | 18:26 |
| jamielennox | given admin/public is the same thing | 18:26 |
| jamielennox | the other option is we are planning a client v2 start of next cycle | 18:26 |
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| roxanaghe_ | sinve admin and public go through the same endpoint is it possible to break anyone? | 18:28 |
| roxanaghe_ | *since | 18:28 |
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| jamielennox | roxanaghe_: it goes through the same code but most people will configure admin and public to use different urls, admin is often not routable by the public | 18:28 |
| ayoung | break it | 18:28 |
| jamielennox | i'm ok to break it | 18:29 |
| ayoung | vote? | 18:29 |
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| dstanek | sure... | 18:29 |
| roxanaghe_ | jamielenox ok, so if only admin is configured - we have now in openstack cli a new option to specify the interface - that could help | 18:30 |
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| dstanek | #startvote Do we want to change from admin -> public and possibly break some applications? yes,no,dont_care | 18:30 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: Do we want to change from admin -> public and possibly break some applications? Valid vote options are yes, no, dont_care. | 18:30 |
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| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 18:30 |
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| bknudson | #vote no | 18:30 |
| jamielennox | roxanaghe_: sure, and you can override the setting now. we just try very hard to not change defaults on people so that things that did work don't stop when they update | 18:30 |
| roxanaghe_ | #vote yes | 18:30 |
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| dstanek | #vote no | 18:31 |
| jamielennox | gah, torn | 18:31 |
| ayoung | #vote yes | 18:31 |
| bknudson | deprecate the old behavior and we can change it in 2.0 | 18:31 |
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| dstanek | i'd rather see something like bknudson suggested in the review getting in | 18:31 |
| lbragstad | dstanek: you mean the deprecation? | 18:32 |
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| jamielennox | #vote no | 18:32 |
| henrynash | #vote no | 18:32 |
| henrynash | [7:31pm] | 18:32 |
| stevemar | blah | 18:32 |
| henrynash | oops | 18:32 |
| lbragstad | #vote no | 18:32 |
| stevemar | #vote no | 18:32 |
| stevemar | deprecate it, then change | 18:32 |
| jamielennox | it's a good idea, but we've turned down less blatant changes for compatibility reasons | 18:32 |
| samueldmq | #vote no | 18:32 |
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| dstanek | henrynash: sorry you are wrong....it's 14:32 | 18:32 |
| lbragstad | or is it 13:33? | 18:33 |
| dstanek | lbragstad: nope | 18:33 |
| henrynash | dstanek: timezones are all secret cunnig plan to keep us all confused | 18:33 |
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| jamielennox | roxanaghe_: it'll definetly be the default in a new release | 18:33 |
| breton | 21:33. | 18:33 |
| dstanek | voting over in 5... | 18:33 |
| breton | #vote deprecate | 18:33 |
| openstack | breton: deprecate is not a valid option. Valid options are yes, no, dont_care. | 18:33 |
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| dstanek | #endvote | 18:34 |
| roxanaghe_ | ok, just wanted to take a decision on it :) | 18:34 |
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| openstack | Voted on "Do we want to change from admin -> public and possibly break some applications?" Results are | 18:34 |
| openstack | yes (2): roxanaghe_, ayoung | 18:34 |
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| openstack | no (7): lbragstad, bknudson, dstanek, samueldmq, jamielennox, henrynash, stevemar | 18:34 |
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| dstanek | are there any follow ups for this? roxanaghe_ did you want to implement the deprecation idea? | 18:34 |
| roxanaghe_ | dstanek, yeah I can do that | 18:35 |
| bknudson | I'm not sure how you deprecate this... might just be documentation. | 18:35 |
| roxanaghe_ | you have some guidance on that process? | 18:35 |
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| dstanek | #action roxanaghe_ to look into alternatives (maybe deprecation) to "Change default endpoint type for Keystone v3 to 'public'" | 18:35 |
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| dstanek | roxanaghe_: sure, in -keystone later you can find some help | 18:36 |
| dstanek | #topic Must tokens always have a user domain ID? | 18:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Must tokens always have a user domain ID? (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:36 | |
| roxanaghe_ | dstanek, ok cool | 18:36 |
| dstanek | lots of links here and i'm not sure how bknudson wants to drive this discussion | 18:36 |
| roxanaghe_ | thanks! | 18:36 |
| dstanek | ok bknudson | 18:36 |
| bknudson | the question is do tokens always have a user domain ID | 18:36 |
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| bknudson | they always have a user ID , that's required by the code that converts token to auth dict | 18:37 |
| henrynash | bknduson: well, v2 ones don’t :-) | 18:37 |
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| ayoung | 23 minutes left | 18:37 |
| bknudson | v2 ones always have the default domain ID as the domain | 18:37 |
| lbragstad | fernet's DomainScopedPayloads do | 18:37 |
| stevemar | federated users should always have the domain 'federated' - right? | 18:37 |
| bknudson | domain scope isn't the user domain ID | 18:38 |
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| henrynash | bknudson: ++ | 18:38 |
| bknudson | as far as I can tell from the config option federated users have a domain named "federated" | 18:38 |
| bknudson | but there's no ID for the federated domain | 18:38 |
| bknudson | also, I think those are ephemeral users... are there actual federated users too? | 18:39 |
| ayoung | always domain id | 18:39 |
| ayoung | default was a porting hack | 18:39 |
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| ayoung | if you change the default domain, you will surprise the hell out of everytone | 18:39 |
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| ayoung | everyone | 18:39 |
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| jamielennox | ignoring v2, whta doesn't have a user domain id? | 18:39 |
| ayoung | stevemar, not alwyas | 18:39 |
| ayoung | always | 18:39 |
| bknudson | I could add a config option for the federated ephemeral user domain. | 18:39 |
| ayoung | you should be able to use just a userid, or username + some domain data. | 18:39 |
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| jamielennox | bknudson: isn't that a mapping thing? | 18:39 |
| ayoung | either domain id or name | 18:40 |
| ayoung | bknudson, no more config values for federation | 18:40 |
| ayoung | lets make it so all federation stuff can be changed without restarting the server | 18:40 |
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| bknudson | jamielennox: I think there's a way to do mapping to either get an ephemeral user or a real one... I assume there's a way to specify the domain ... I'm no expert and haven't looked into it. | 18:41 |
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| jamielennox | so are we working around another fernet issue? | 18:42 |
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| ayoung | so...is there any realquestion here? | 18:43 |
| bknudson | the issue only shows up in a fernet test | 18:43 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: but that would seem to me the only place where you could end up without a user_domain_id in a token body | 18:43 |
| ayoung | fernet for federated needs to record all of the information that is needed to reproduce the token | 18:43 |
| ayoung | don't worry about token size, worry about accuracy. | 18:44 |
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| jamielennox | so i've thought this before - at this point i think fernet needs to keep a shadow user table | 18:44 |
| bknudson | ok, if it's not a problem to add the user domain ID to the fernet token for federated users that's fine. | 18:45 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, can it use the id mapping table? | 18:45 |
| bknudson | I'm not sure where the domain ID is going to come from | 18:45 |
| jamielennox | you get the win of still not storing tokens, but it might just need to record users that login via federation | 18:45 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:46 |
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| dstanek | lbragstad: dolphm: thoughts? ^ | 18:46 |
| lbragstad | I thought marekd_404 had a review up for adding the username to the fernet payload? | 18:46 |
| dstanek | jamielennox: won't that still be a table that grows forever? | 18:46 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, alternative is to make the fernet body larger and record the info there | 18:46 |
| jamielennox | the table can still be cleaned after a certain period of time since last login, but it'd be max a couple of million rows with unique ids | 18:47 |
| * dstanek see that there is only about 13 minutes left and bknudson has one more topic | 18:47 | |
| jamielennox | ayoung: the thing i really like about fernet is not growing the table | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | s/table/token | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | i'll write something up | 18:47 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, it is either/or... | 18:47 |
| bknudson | lbragstad: this one? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/202176/ -- I linked to it | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | for now i think user_domain_id should be in everything | 18:47 |
| lbragstad | bknudson: yep, looking at that now | 18:48 |
| bknudson | that doesn't have the user domain ID either. | 18:48 |
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| jamielennox | however as far as i know most of the time when using federated login (web sites etc) you generally create an entry in a user table somewhere that you can link to later | 18:48 |
| lbragstad | bknudson: maybe the domain ID is something that we can build into the federated info? | 18:48 |
| jamielennox | it would also solve the groups issue | 18:48 |
| bknudson | lbragstad: sure. I'm not sure if ephemeral users actually have a domain ID at this point either. | 18:49 |
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| bknudson | there's a config option for the name but none for the ID | 18:49 |
| lbragstad | right now it consists of groups_ids, idp_id, and protocol_id | 18:49 |
| lbragstad | https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/master/keystone/token/providers/fernet/core.py#L123 | 18:49 |
| lbragstad | #link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/master/keystone/token/providers/fernet/core.py#L123 | 18:49 |
| bknudson | I don't know how it's supposed to work but if users are actually supposed to always have a domain ID then that will require some changes. | 18:50 |
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| lbragstad | yeah, how would we handle that for UUID? | 18:50 |
| bknudson | we can move on if we're agreed on that | 18:50 |
| dstanek | it sounds like this is an offline (out of meeting) conversation that needs to happen | 18:50 |
| bknudson | lbragstad: I'd add a config option with a random uuid. | 18:50 |
| dstanek | moving on.... | 18:51 |
| dstanek | #topic keystoneclient keystoneauth_integration feature branch still broken bknudson | 18:51 |
| dstanek | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/213573/ proposed review | 18:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "keystoneclient keystoneauth_integration feature branch still broken bknudson (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:51 | |
| dstanek | bknudson again! | 18:51 |
| stevemar | dstanek: its all broken | 18:51 |
| henrynash | ya cn’t keep a good man down | 18:51 |
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| bknudson | just a notice that the keystoneauth_integration branch is falling way behind due to not being able to merge with master | 18:51 |
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| bknudson | the change to keystoneauth that I think is needed is merged | 18:52 |
| dstanek | stevemar: way to stay positive! | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | so the purpose of keystoneauth_integration has changed | 18:52 |
| bknudson | but now I think we need a release of keystoneauth in order to start using it. | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | it was initially to make a keystoneclient that depended on keystoneauth, however at this point it's been decided that won't happen during the ksc 1 period | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | keystoneauth_integration is therefore the keystoneclient 2 branch that will depend on keystoneauth | 18:53 |
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| jamielennox | but if we change the branch names we need to change a bunch of rules in zuul that do things like exclude the requirement check based on the branch name | 18:53 |
| bknudson | we need to keep the branch in sync with master | 18:53 |
| jamielennox | the CRUD interface should remain unchanged, anything related to the session/auth will need to be synced to keystoneauth | 18:54 |
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| jamielennox | tests are the larger problem with cherry-picking between the two | 18:54 |
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| bknudson | ok, that was it... if you're wondering why keystoneauth_integration isn't up-to-date with master it's because changes were made in master that didn't get to keystoneauth | 18:55 |
| * lbragstad waves the 5 minute flag | 18:55 | |
| dstanek | is that it on that topic? | 18:55 |
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| jamielennox | bknudson: i go back and cherry-pick occasionaly but i don't think there have been many changes to session/auth in ksc recently | 18:56 |
| dstanek | i'll take that as a *yes* | 18:56 |
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| jamielennox | do you have a list? | 18:56 |
| dstanek | ...or not... | 18:56 |
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| bknudson | jamielennox: the fix that I needed I made with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/210010/ | 18:57 |
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| bknudson | "Commit 6950527 in python-keystoneclient added role_ids and role_names properties to fixtures.v3.Token" | 18:57 |
| dstanek | should we have some cleanup activity to get the branch in sync? | 18:58 |
| bknudson | that commit was made to master but wasn't made to keystoneauth | 18:58 |
| bknudson | so when I go to merge master to the feature branch, the tests fail since the master tests are using the properties. | 18:58 |
| bknudson | but there hasn't been a release since then so the merge is still failing tests | 18:59 |
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| * Shrews lurks | 18:59 | |
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| dstanek | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 18 19:00:16 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-08-18-18.02.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-08-18-18.02.txt | 19:00 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-08-18-18.02.log.html | 19:00 |
| dstanek | that's time! | 19:00 |
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| fungi | infra team assemble! | 19:00 |
| clarkb | ohai | 19:00 |
| Clint | o/ | 19:00 |
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| mrmartin | o/ | 19:00 |
| jasondotstar | o/ | 19:00 |
| yolanda | o/ | 19:00 |
| SotK | o/ | 19:01 |
| Zara | o/ | 19:01 |
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| rbradfor | o/ | 19:01 |
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| ruagair | O/ | 19:01 |
| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 18 19:01:27 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:01 |
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| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:01 |
| SpamapS | o/ | 19:01 |
| ociuhandu | o/ | 19:01 |
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| fungi | #topic Announcements | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| tchaypo | \o | 19:02 |
| ianw | o/ | 19:02 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2015-August/003069.html | 19:02 |
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| fungi | just a reminder that we're planning to mass rename repos from the stackforge namespace into a common openstack namespace, on an opt-in basis | 19:02 |
| mmedvede | o/ | 19:03 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:03 |
| fungi | and then mark any that haven't opted in as read-only/archived after a time | 19:03 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:03 |
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| fungi | follow up to the thread with further discussion on scheduling | 19:03 |
| jhesketh | Morning | 19:03 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2015-August/003075.html | 19:03 |
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| fungi | due to recent growth of core reviewers in neutron, they've requested that we clear job changes through mestery, armax or dougwig unless it's really urgent | 19:04 |
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| fungi | so just bear in mind, when reviewing changes to job configuration that could potentially impact what's tested for neutron that we're looking for a +1 from at least one of them if possible | 19:04 |
| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:05 | |
| fungi | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-08-11-19.02.html | 19:05 |
| fungi | pabelanger,jasondotstar look into restore-from-backup testing | 19:05 |
| fungi | i know that's ongoing, we've been discussing it in channel | 19:06 |
| jasondotstar | we've captured our thoughts here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/infra-backup-brainstorm | 19:06 |
| jasondotstar | the next step is to run through our test strategy | 19:06 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/infra-backup-brainstorm | 19:06 |
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| fungi | jasondotstar: pabelanger: thanks! we can work from there i think | 19:06 |
| jasondotstar | we'd like to also ask folks to think of any other backup/restore scenarios worth testing (manually) | 19:06 |
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| jasondotstar | put them there on the etherpad. | 19:07 |
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| jasondotstar | once we identify the manual steps and validate that they work | 19:07 |
| fungi | sounds good | 19:07 |
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| SpamapS | Just chiming in.. there is one set of data in infra-cloud that is hard to reproduce, and that is the Ironic inventory. We have a plan to store most of it in git, with the secret bits in hiera. | 19:08 |
| jasondotstar | we can think about automating. | 19:08 |
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| jasondotstar | SpamapS: ack. | 19:08 |
| SpamapS | So that just means any backup systems need to make sure git and hiera are backed up. | 19:08 |
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| fungi | SpamapS: cool, it's definitely the hard-to-reproduce things we actually care about backing up | 19:08 |
| SpamapS | Also hiera backups, I assume, need to be encrypted. | 19:08 |
| fungi | yeah | 19:08 |
| clarkb | which is an exercise to be completed :/ | 19:08 |
| jasondotstar | the hiera data is primarily on the puppetmasters...or somewhere else? | 19:09 |
| clarkb | yes would be on the puppetmaster(s) | 19:09 |
| fungi | jasondotstar: it's a static file on the puppetmaster | 19:09 |
| jasondotstar | clarkb: ack. | 19:09 |
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| jasondotstar | so we should think of an encryption method for sensitive data such as this... | 19:10 |
| clarkb | the tricky thing is the chicke and egg with backing up the encryption key/sharedsecret | 19:10 |
| * jasondotstar agrees | 19:10 | |
| clarkb | I think thats where I got distracted last time I looked into this | 19:10 |
| jasondotstar | pabelanger and i will capture this on the etherpad and see what we can come up with... | 19:11 |
| fungi | yeah, it's turtles all the way down. we were considering encrypting it to the keys of the infra root admins or with a passphrase known only to infra root and leave it at that | 19:11 |
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| SpamapS | IMO, encrypt the backups w/ GPG to all of infra-root's keys. Anyone in infra-root then can restore the backup on their machine. | 19:11 |
| fungi | but anyway, that's veering a bit off topic for validating our current backup mechanism | 19:12 |
| nibalizer | ohai | 19:12 |
| SpamapS | agree, just make sure it gets backed up | 19:12 |
| jasondotstar | +1 | 19:12 |
| fungi | yeah | 19:12 |
| fungi | #topic Specs approval | 19:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:13 | |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack-infra/infra-specs,n,z | 19:13 |
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| fungi | we're not approving any specs in meeting, just a reminder that there are some awaiting reviews | 19:13 |
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| fungi | also the new storyboard dev team has explicitly requested review/approval of some outstanding storyboard specs | 19:13 |
| pleia2 | I didn't add it to the agenda, but this translations site spec is ready for review: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/184559/ | 19:14 |
| pleia2 | I've been working with the i18n folks to refine it, and I think it's in a good place now | 19:14 |
| fungi | since openstack project infra don't have a huge stake in it other than avoiding breaking it until we switch to something else, would be nice for us to give the storyboard team relatively wide berth on their specs i guess | 19:15 |
| SotK | The StoryBoard spec in question is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/202989/ | 19:15 |
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| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/202989 | 19:15 |
| fungi | thanks SotK! | 19:15 |
| fungi | and apologies for us being somewhat absentee landlords on that | 19:15 |
| clarkb | well didn't we say see how it goes? | 19:15 |
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| SotK | we did | 19:16 |
| fungi | yep. they seem to be doing stuff | 19:16 |
| clarkb | I am guessing this is and indication that infra isn't really interested in that? | 19:16 |
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| fungi | potentially, yes | 19:16 |
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| fungi | anyway, specs. we have some. i need to review them, and would be thrilled if others do to | 19:17 |
| fungi | #topic Schedule Project Renames | 19:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Schedule Project Renames (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:17 | |
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| fungi | it was suggested in the aforementioned planning thread that we should probably also do some renames in september for projects that have already requested them | 19:18 |
| fungi | we don't need to decide it today, but just making sure we keep it in mind and see if we can pick a good window when september draws a little closer | 19:18 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts | 19:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:19 | |
| clarkb | any initial suggestions? | 19:19 |
| clarkb | oh too late | 19:19 |
| fungi | #undo | 19:20 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0xa1ee7d0> | 19:20 |
| fungi | it's not too late! | 19:20 |
| Clint | well played | 19:20 |
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| fungi | i didn't have any initial suggestions though, but my calendar is wide open for september | 19:20 |
| clarkb | there is the long weekend for MURICA we should avoid but otherwise maybe avoid burning man? I think that is next to the long weekend | 19:20 |
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| * fungi has done a great job at avoiding burning man so far | 19:21 | |
| pleia2 | after labor day I'm around all month | 19:21 |
| clarkb | thats basically the first week of september is no go | 19:21 |
| clarkb | maybe do second weekend? | 19:21 |
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| fungi | second weekend... like friday the 11th'/ | 19:22 |
| fungi | ? | 19:22 |
| clarkb | ya | 19:22 |
| pleia2 | 11th and 12th are good for me | 19:22 |
| fungi | wfm. i have some guests in town the following weekend | 19:22 |
| fungi | #info tentative window to clear already requested project renames on september 11 or 12 | 19:23 |
| zaro | are we planning or have plans to move any infra projects around? like from sourceforge to openstack or openstack-infra? | 19:23 |
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| fungi | s/ource/tack/ | 19:23 |
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| fungi | not that i'm aware, no | 19:24 |
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| fungi | okay, nothing else on this i guess, so moving on | 19:25 |
| fungi | (for real this time!) | 19:25 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts | 19:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:25 | |
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| fungi | if there aren't any urgent updates for any of these, i'm going to move ahead to the backlog | 19:26 |
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| clarkb | jhesketh has a first pass at the swift index gen stuff | 19:26 |
| fungi | anyone have a priority effort that's blocked/on fire? | 19:26 |
| clarkb | so swift logs continues to plod along | 19:26 |
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| zaro | gerrit upgrade might be blocked forever. | 19:26 |
| fungi | zaro: oh? details appreciated... link? | 19:26 |
| yolanda | i'd like to request more reviews for several items on downstream-puppet | 19:26 |
| zaro | nobody is working to fix the jgit issue #link https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/repo-discuss/CYYoHfDxCfA/BxkgOOx6CgAJ | 19:26 |
| fungi | zaro: ugh | 19:27 |
| clarkb | I think upstream gerrit may have given up on functioning properly | 19:27 |
| fungi | ETOOHARD | 19:27 |
| jhesketh | Yeah swift logs are slowly going. Not as fast as I'd like sorry | 19:27 |
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| fungi | no worries | 19:28 |
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| fungi | okay, moving along to the backlog | 19:28 |
| fungi | #topic Restore from backup test (jeblair) | 19:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Restore from backup test (jeblair) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:28 | |
| fungi | this was mostly covered in the action items | 19:28 |
| fungi | we should keep working through it, but i don't know that it needs any additional discussion here for the time being | 19:29 |
| fungi | #topic Fedora 22 snapshots and / or DIBs feedback (pabelanger) | 19:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Fedora 22 snapshots and / or DIBs feedback (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:29 | |
| fungi | looks like pabelanger's not here | 19:29 |
| nibalizer | I believe he can be summoned | 19:29 |
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| nibalizer | maybe not | 19:29 |
| ianw | we should be close to having dib images going | 19:30 |
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| ianw | hpcloud don't have f22 images, rax does | 19:30 |
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| fungi | yeah, i've been semi-reviewing the proposed changes | 19:30 |
| pabelanger | opps | 19:30 |
| fungi | i'll link them here | 19:30 |
| ianw | if someone from hpcloud wants to fix that, great | 19:30 |
| pabelanger | sorry, lost track of time | 19:30 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/211703 | 19:30 |
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| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/211294 | 19:30 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/186619 | 19:30 |
| ianw | devstack is broken on f22 at the moment due to a pip issues, hope to have something on that today .au time | 19:31 |
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| ianw | a real fix + workaround in the mean-time probably | 19:31 |
| fungi | okay, great | 19:31 |
| fungi | anything else specific you needed to cover for this in the meeting? | 19:31 |
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| clarkb | will we drop f21? | 19:31 |
| ianw | sort of more priority effort, but request for review of the yum/dnf package caching for dib ... getting links | 19:32 |
| ianw | #link https://review.openstack.org/208321 | 19:32 |
| fungi | phrased differently, should we expect the current jobs that run on f21 to work on f22 obce we have it booting? | 19:32 |
| fungi | er, once | 19:33 |
| ianw | my suggestion is to unify apt/yum paths to minimise our need to pass different env variables | 19:33 |
| fungi | whatcha mean "unify apt/yum paths"? | 19:33 |
| ianw | sorry, i mean in that review use common environment variables to indicate "keep the package cache" | 19:34 |
| fungi | oh, right-o | 19:34 |
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| clarkb | +1 | 19:34 |
| ianw | as to the jobs, yes for devstack+tempest | 19:34 |
| fungi | within dib's baked-in elements you mean | 19:34 |
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| ianw | i *think* there might be some docker-ish type stuff i know little about. i imagine it can transition | 19:35 |
| fungi | because it definitely has some widely varied caching behaviors/implementation between the dpkg element and the yum element | 19:35 |
| ianw | yeah, that's what i've tried to unify with those changes | 19:35 |
| fungi | okay, cool | 19:36 |
| fungi | anything else on this? | 19:36 |
| ianw | anyway, i think that it's all pretty contained within the reviews, so that's it | 19:36 |
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| fungi | f21 deprecation? | 19:36 |
| fungi | don't see that answered | 19:36 |
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| clarkb | ianw naswered said yes for devstack + tempet | 19:37 |
| clarkb | which is most of where we f21 | 19:37 |
| fungi | ahh, right-o | 19:37 |
| ianw | the devstack job is super-unstable. i haven't bothered fixing it because f22 is so close | 19:37 |
| ianw | so it's half-dead already :) | 19:37 |
| fungi | the puppet crowd i guess are the other primary consumers of those images? | 19:37 |
| clarkb | and kolla/magnum | 19:37 |
| fungi | tripleo have their own images, so can transition at their own pace i suppose | 19:37 |
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| ianw | yep; pabelanger & me will work with people to transition | 19:38 |
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| fungi | alright, great | 19:38 |
| ianw | if anyone ever asked me, i've always told them the cost of testing on fedora is they're going to be on the upgrade cycle | 19:38 |
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| fungi | yeah, that's why we've generally not had important jobs run on non-long-term releases | 19:39 |
| ianw | yep, so it's fair to expect people to put some effort into moving | 19:39 |
| fungi | since we can't continue to maintain them in that state for our stable release branches | 19:39 |
| fungi | #topic Normally there are no infra-roots in Europe, some of us want to volunteer for it (yolanda) | 19:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Normally there are no infra-roots in Europe, some of us want to volunteer for it (yolanda) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:39 | |
| yolanda | hi so the topic raised that week on some gerrit outage | 19:40 |
| yolanda | we know we have jhesketh on Australia, and Sergey on Europe, but reality is that sometimes is difficult to have roots at certain hours | 19:40 |
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| mrmartin | good idea, if you don't plan to sleep in the next 6-12 months | 19:40 |
| fungi | yolanda: thanks for being interested in helping more! general workflow for this is to sync up with the ptl and let them drive the conversation, so probably best to bend jeblair's ear when he's no longer in the midst of the ops mid-cycle | 19:40 |
| yolanda | AJaeger raised the problem that there were no volunteers, so from Gozer we'd like to volunteer | 19:41 |
| yolanda | yes, we'll contact jeblair for it | 19:41 |
| fungi | yolanda: i think that's awesome | 19:41 |
| mrmartin | +1 for EU infra root next to Sergey | 19:41 |
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| mrmartin | we are really loosing entire work days when something fails | 19:41 |
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| yolanda | we are 3 members on Europe that are able to help, and have the expertise, so we'll be contacting jeblair for it | 19:41 |
| fungi | yep, anyway, lets let this conversation take its course through the proper channels when jeblair can be around | 19:42 |
| yolanda | sure | 19:42 |
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| fungi | i just wanted to go ahead and bring it forward since you had it on the agenda. don't want you to think i'm skipping you! | 19:42 |
| fungi | #topic puppet-pip vs puppet-python (rcarrillocruz) | 19:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "puppet-pip vs puppet-python (rcarrillocruz) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:43 | |
| fungi | this got some discussion on the mailing list, though i think it might have reached a lull | 19:43 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2015-August/003015.html | 19:43 |
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| fungi | looks like it was covered in last week's meeting, so we can just kick that thread and see if we can bring it to a resolution i guess | 19:44 |
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| fungi | #topic Nodepool REST API spec (rcarrillocruz) | 19:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Nodepool REST API spec (rcarrillocruz) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:45 | |
| fungi | this also looks like it's left over from last week | 19:45 |
| nibalizer | yep | 19:45 |
| fungi | was there anything else that needed covering on this one? | 19:45 |
| pabelanger | I haven't had a chance to review the spec and leave comments | 19:45 |
| fungi | yep, please review open specs ;) | 19:45 |
| * fungi is one of the worst offenders | 19:45 | |
| fungi | #topic Open discussion | 19:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:46 | |
| fungi | i give you 13.5 minutes | 19:46 |
| yolanda | i wanted to raise the zuul services problem, we had some discussion on the mailing list | 19:46 |
| yolanda | with several opinions | 19:46 |
| yolanda | i'd like that we get on some agreement | 19:47 |
| fungi | which list? infra or dev? | 19:47 |
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| fungi | or was it before august? | 19:47 |
| yolanda | infra, we had the discussion last week | 19:47 |
| fungi | not immediately finding the thread to gain some context | 19:48 |
| yolanda | about if puppet modules should spin up services or not | 19:48 |
| fungi | oh, that | 19:48 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2015-August/003038.html | 19:48 |
| yolanda | ah, i didn't have the link handy | 19:48 |
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| sdake | fungi clarkb i am good from a kolla perspective with f21 deprecation in 1-2 weeks | 19:48 |
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| sdake | we want f22 though :) | 19:49 |
| fungi | sdake: awesome, well we need the f22 images working anyway, yeah ;) | 19:49 |
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| fungi | yolanda: so i think we mostly settled on it being fine to parameterize the service ensure for running/stopped/undef | 19:49 |
| sdake | in 1-2 weeks I will be removing our fedora-21 gating job entirely | 19:50 |
| yolanda | fungi, that works for me | 19:50 |
| sdake | as soon as my gating work finishes and merges for the new kolla build tool | 19:50 |
| fungi | i think someone (crinkle? nibalizer? clarkb?) said ensure=>undef will have the desired outcome for our infra | 19:50 |
| sdake | fungi but for f22, that gating job is furthe rout and not an immediate priority | 19:50 |
| clarkb | ensure => undef is really annoying | 19:51 |
| crinkle | yes | 19:51 |
| clarkb | it behaves differently in puppet3 and puppet4 | 19:51 |
| nibalizer | ya my last message on that thread is what I think we should do | 19:51 |
| clarkb | but if thats the hack I guess ok? | 19:51 |
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| crinkle | clarkb: I don't think it will behave differently? | 19:51 |
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| nibalizer | clarkb: it does? | 19:51 |
| clarkb | crinkle: using undef as a param makes it use the dfeault | 19:51 |
| clarkb | in puppet3 but in 4 its actually a nil value aiui | 19:52 |
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| clarkb | so if there is a default for the thing you get the default which is probably not what you want if explicitly undefing | 19:52 |
| crinkle | there's no default for ensure in the service type, is why not specifying it has worked so far | 19:52 |
| clarkb | oh I thought it defaulted to running | 19:52 |
| crinkle | if it defaulted to running then we wouldn't be arguing about adding ensure => running | 19:53 |
| clarkb | but you must be right since its just dropped | 19:53 |
| clarkb | ya | 19:53 |
| fungi | and yeah, i feel relatively strongly that the way we run our services in the openstack project infrastructure should be the default behavior for the modules we publish, because anything else is hypocrisy, but it's perfectly fine to make the behavior configurable so that downstream consumers can choose to override that default to whatever behavior they prefer | 19:53 |
| crinkle | fungi: ++ | 19:53 |
| pabelanger | puppet-lint voting jobs for system-config? What was decided? | 19:54 |
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| pabelanger | re-enable or not? | 19:54 |
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| fungi | but if the people responsible for maintaining zuul.openstack.org feel that ensure-running for the zuul services is a liability, then it feels wrong for us to make that a non-default behavior for the openstackinfra/zuul module on the forge | 19:54 |
| clarkb | fungi: agreed we should keep the current behavior as default for all the reaons argued for on the thread | 19:55 |
| pabelanger | I am infavor of expoising something to allow people to control it, does not matter the name or defaults. | 19:55 |
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| yolanda | i agree with pabelanger | 19:56 |
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| yolanda | parameterize , be flexible and not opinionated on it, and i'm perfectly fine on having the default non running for infra | 19:56 |
| fungi | pabelanger: i think we have a consensus to not -1 over style concerns, but the current core reviewers for the system-config repo didn't express an interest in having that repo linted since it's not going to be published to the forge | 19:56 |
| clarkb | well if you put it that way I think we _should_ be opinionated :P | 19:57 |
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| clarkb | we know a lot about zuul | 19:57 |
| clarkb | we know a lot about running zuul | 19:57 |
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| clarkb | we should share that knoweldge | 19:57 |
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| crinkle | we have https://review.openstack.org/#/c/175226/1 to add linting, I think we should get that rebased and merged | 19:57 |
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| fungi | oh, i hadn't notived that one. so we need linting to give us forewarning of things we're currently doing in system-config that might break under puppet 4? | 19:58 |
| fungi | er, noticed | 19:58 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/175226 | 19:59 |
| fungi | anyway, we're running out of time | 19:59 |
| fungi | anything else in these last few seconds? | 19:59 |
| Clint | no | 19:59 |
| fungi | thanks everybody! | 19:59 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 19:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 18 19:59:55 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:59 |
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| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-08-18-19.01.html | 19:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-08-18-19.01.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-08-18-19.01.log.html | 20:00 |
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| Clint | with 5 seconds to spare | 20:00 |
| fungi | all yours, ttx! | 20:00 |
| ttx | ... o/ Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
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| ttx | russellb, jgriffith, annegentle, lifeless, mordred, flaper87, dtroyer, markmcclain, jeblair, jaypipes, sdague, dhellmann: around ? | 20:00 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:00 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 20:00 |
| * mestery lurks | 20:00 | |
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| jgriffith | \o | 20:01 |
| * edleafe lurks too | 20:01 | |
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| lifeless | ttx: very | 20:01 |
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| dhellmann | o/ | 20:01 |
| lifeless | ttx: but I'm back on the diet :) | 20:01 |
| dhellmann | ttx: jeblair will be online shortly | 20:01 |
| ttx | lifeless: good, I guess | 20:01 |
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| ttx | waiting for a 7th to start | 20:02 |
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| markmcclain | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 18 20:02:44 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #topic Using topics to classify governance changes | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Using topics to classify governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| ttx | 3 weeks ago sdague asked that we use Gerrit topics to mark governance changes that do not actually require formal votes | 20:03 |
| ttx | so that we can filter them | 20:03 |
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| ttx | I sent an email to the -tc list proposing to do the reverse (mark those who actually require formal votes), since there are lots of corner cases: | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-tc/2015-July/001005.html | 20:03 |
| ttx | No answer to that proposal... yet | 20:03 |
| russellb | seemed reasonable to me | 20:03 |
| ttx | not sure that means "go ahead" | 20:03 |
| flaper87 | I think we silently agreed | 20:03 |
| ttx | russellb: ok | 20:03 |
| flaper87 | yeah | 20:03 |
| russellb | i didn't have anything to add | 20:04 |
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| russellb | so yeah, my silence was +1 :) | 20:04 |
| flaper87 | extreme lazy consensus | 20:04 |
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| ttx | #action ttx to mark things that we actually need to vote on, for easier filtering | 20:04 |
| dhellmann | yeah, mark the subset -- the point was to just be able to filter | 20:04 |
| ttx | just hoping that doesn't mean nobody will pay any attention to other changes | 20:04 |
| russellb | i'll still have all changes hitting my inbox personally | 20:04 |
| jeblair | o/ | 20:04 |
| flaper87 | it'll help me prioritize | 20:04 |
| annegentle | a search filter sounds great | 20:05 |
| * dhellmann subscribes to all | 20:05 | |
| ttx | #topic Add and apply tag team:size-large | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | I could add it to the TC dashboard query, too | 20:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add and apply tag team:size-large (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:05 | |
| * flaper87 uses gertty | 20:05 | |
| flaper87 | YEs, I'm one of those | 20:05 |
| russellb | so this tag came up in the next tags WG | 20:05 |
| russellb | or rather, this family of tags | 20:05 |
| * jeblair high-fives flaper87 | 20:05 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/208029 | 20:05 |
| russellb | the idea of tagging info around team sizes | 20:05 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/208030 | 20:05 |
| ttx | In the discussion emerged the need for a team:very-small tag, which is what consumers of that data are actually looking for | 20:05 |
| ttx | "Is a project maintained by enough people to be there tomorrow" (same as diverse-affiliation) | 20:05 |
| flaper87 | jeblair: :D | 20:05 |
| russellb | right, happy to propose "very-small" as a red flag tag | 20:06 |
| ttx | That said, that doesn't mean a team:very-large tag isn't useful, to distinguish projects with a giant group behind them... | 20:06 |
| ttx | russellb: I guess that still answers a question people might have ? | 20:06 |
| russellb | curious if anyone else finds "very-large" useful | 20:06 |
| russellb | it seems somewhat interesting to me | 20:06 |
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| flaper87 | mmh, have we considered using number-ranges ? | 20:06 |
| russellb | but is it just interesting, or is it useful? | 20:06 |
| * russellb shrugs | 20:06 | |
| flaper87 | throwing it out there | 20:06 |
| annegentle | I think that activity-level:high is more accurate for this? | 20:06 |
| ttx | Yeah, I can see how *I* would use iut, not sure about others though | 20:06 |
| flaper87 | rather than small/very-small/big | 20:06 |
| jgriffith | russellb: so it is intended to be different than "diverse"? | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: ++ | 20:06 |
| russellb | jgriffith: yes | 20:06 |
| ttx | flaper87: "medium" doesn't answer any question | 20:07 |
| annegentle | not trying to paint a bike shed, but it seems like this isn't about team size but activity / scope | 20:07 |
| russellb | jgriffith: diversity vs # of people doing the work | 20:07 |
| flaper87 | At least we know how many we're talking about (not sure if that makes sense) | 20:07 |
| jgriffith | russellb: thanks | 20:07 |
| russellb | is a diverse group of 5? or is it a diverse group of 50? | 20:07 |
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| markmcclain | doesn | 20:07 |
| jgriffith | russellb: yeah, I see the difference now. Thank you | 20:07 |
| edleafe | it's about warning for potential problems, no? | 20:07 |
| ttx | annegentle: it's arguably az comabo. One very active person is certainly more fragile than 3 moderately-active persons | 20:07 |
| ttx | az comabo ? | 20:08 |
| flaper87 | ttx: agreed, which is why I'm wondering if we've considered rage numbers | 20:08 |
| ttx | what am I typing | 20:08 |
| ttx | "a combo". | 20:08 |
| russellb | rage numbers? sounds fun | 20:08 |
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| lifeless | flaper87: do you mean drive-by fixes? | 20:08 |
| jeblair | also, the necessary team size may vary by project moreso than diversity | 20:08 |
| flaper87 | <=10, <= 20, >20 | 20:08 |
| lifeless | also maturity | 20:08 |
| russellb | jeblair: fair | 20:08 |
| lifeless | a mature specialised thing needs many less changes | 20:08 |
| russellb | is there some # that's "very-small" / "too-small" regardless of project? | 20:09 |
| ttx | flaper87: I don't think <=20 answers any question anyone has | 20:09 |
| russellb | if not, then maybe the whole tag category should be dropped | 20:09 |
| annegentle | also the 6 commits and 30 reviews, is that a known ratio from a given team? | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | ttx: what does very-small say? What do we base that on? | 20:09 |
| ttx | I feel like people want to know if "enough" people support their project. They may want to know if the project is giganormous, but I'm not sure of that | 20:09 |
| russellb | annegentle: completely arbitrary starting point | 20:09 |
| ttx | flaper87: bus factor | 20:09 |
| annegentle | russellb: ok | 20:09 |
| ttx | flaper87: A project with only one active person is extremely fragile. | 20:10 |
| russellb | i picked those numbers out of the air, and they seemed to capture the biggest handful of projects | 20:10 |
| markmcclain | yeah.. I think small is more of a concern | 20:10 |
| ttx | there are some of those in openstack today. | 20:10 |
| annegentle | I ran these numbers for docs, and only one specialty areas will be above that ratio I think... will have to double check | 20:10 |
| ttx | I think people should know about them. | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | ttx: sure, doesn't <= 10 same the same thing? | 20:10 |
| ttx | <= 10 what? | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | my point is, we gotta get those "quantifications" from somewhere | 20:10 |
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| fungi | also curious how to aggregate that across all the repos for all the deliverables in a project, assuming it's based on core review/approver group membership or commit activity or... | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | ttx: whatever very-small is made of, I guess | 20:11 |
| russellb | fungi: the union of all activity in all repos for a team | 20:11 |
| russellb | is how it works right now | 20:11 |
| jgriffith | If they're not large they're small(ish) :) | 20:11 |
| fungi | russellb: thanks | 20:11 |
| ttx | flaper87: russellb uses "'active contributors" as a metric | 20:11 |
| ttx | I thiknk under 3 the project is at risk at that should be communicated. | 20:11 |
| russellb | so if nothing else, seems to be agreement that "very small" is the most valuable thing | 20:12 |
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| russellb | so as a next step i'll propose that | 20:12 |
| ttx | yeah, maybe we shjould start with this one | 20:12 |
| russellb | and then once we work through that, we can revisit "large" (maybe) | 20:12 |
| ttx | I blame philosophers and their wine for all the typos I make today | 20:12 |
| * flaper87 goes to os-zaqar and starts counting ppl | 20:12 | |
| flaper87 | </jk> | 20:12 |
| annegentle | my gut says highly active could be valuable, to set expectations for review time perhaps, but won't tell much to people who use or operate a service | 20:12 |
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| russellb | flaper87: script is already merged iirc | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | russellb: very large might be an indication that the project may move pretty slowly, too, so it could be useful | 20:12 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: right, my thinking also | 20:13 |
| flaper87 | russellb: damn :P | 20:13 |
| fungi | review tie is actually something we _can_ measure, if that's a useful metric to build a tag around | 20:13 |
| fungi | er, review time | 20:13 |
| russellb | fungi: that sounds interesting | 20:13 |
| ttx | dhellmann: In all cases we need to define the question before we define the tag that would help answer it | 20:13 |
| russellb | already measuring that with bitgeria | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | ttx: sure, and measuring review time directly is likely better | 20:13 |
| russellb | not sure how easy it would be to get that data on demand | 20:13 |
| ttx | In the current case, the question is "is the project supported by enough people that it will survive individual accidents | 20:13 |
| ttx | like people burning out | 20:14 |
| annegentle | #link http://activity.openstack.org/dash/browser/ | 20:14 |
| fungi | and also reviewstats data, and similar data to that in stackalytics | 20:14 |
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| flaper87 | ok, I think I see the point of using very-small rather than numbers | 20:14 |
| flaper87 | sorry, took me a bit | 20:14 |
| flaper87 | :D | 20:14 |
| ttx | I feel like if you have less than 5 the project would seriously suffer if they lost one person. | 20:14 |
| * flaper87 is slow today, ask everyone | 20:14 | |
| markmcclain | ttx: +1 | 20:14 |
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| ttx | suffer to the point where there could be cascading failure. | 20:15 |
| flaper87 | ttx: I can say, from my own experience, that's true | 20:15 |
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| flaper87 | :) | 20:15 |
| ttx | that is the risk I want the tag to communicate | 20:15 |
| dougwig | <=2 is an obvious low limit, because then your cores can't submit code. :) | 20:15 |
| russellb | dougwig: ha | 20:15 |
| ttx | doesn't mean people won't use the project. Just helps them make their own idea | 20:15 |
| flaper87 | dougwig: been there too :P | 20:15 |
| fungi | for very small team sizes, it's convention to just self-approve or single-core approve changes | 20:15 |
| dougwig | flaper87: still there (fwaas and vpnaas). | 20:15 |
| flaper87 | dougwig: :( | 20:15 |
| fungi | so they're not _exactly_ blocked on submitting changes to merge | 20:15 |
| markmcclain | there is a component of diversity within low numbers... a team of10 people and 8 work for same company is at serious risk of collapse too if company changes direction.. should probably be considered small | 20:16 |
| lifeless | when we say project here | 20:16 |
| russellb | dougwig: those imply it might be valuable to call this out on a per-repo basis | 20:16 |
| lifeless | do we mean 'code tree' or 'group of people' ? | 20:16 |
| ttx | anyway, I think Russell has a way forward | 20:16 |
| russellb | this tag right now is focused on teams, so it'd be Neutron overall | 20:16 |
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| ttx | lifeless: project team | 20:16 |
| lifeless | things like openstack/requirements have ill-defined teams IME | 20:16 |
| russellb | anyway, yes, i have a way forward | 20:16 |
| ttx | although it doesn't have to be a team tag I guess | 20:17 |
| lifeless | ttx: could it be a tag team? | 20:17 |
| ttx | or a tag team tag ? | 20:17 |
| ttx | team tag² ? | 20:17 |
| russellb | tagception | 20:17 |
| jgriffith | +1 for squared | 20:17 |
| * flaper87 rofl | 20:17 | |
| russellb | i think we should move on | 20:17 |
| annegentle | wow squared | 20:18 |
| * annegentle is impressed | 20:18 | |
| dougwig | russellb: agree on calling out per team somehow (where team may be a larger project subteam). sorry for delay, at ops meetup. | 20:18 |
| fungi | keeping in mind that the tc abandoned the concept of per-repo tags, so i don't see how doing it on a per-repo basis would be feasible | 20:18 |
| russellb | dougwig: all good, glad you're there! would love to hear your feedback after | 20:18 |
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| russellb | fungi: yar | 20:18 |
| ttx | russellb: it's true that it could be an per-repo tag. After all some of the neutron circus things might be supported by only one person | 20:18 |
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| russellb | ttx: but someone could make the same argument about components of a project in a single repo | 20:19 |
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| russellb | so not sure we need to worry too muhc | 20:19 |
| fungi | seems like at a minimum you'd need to aggregate across all repos for a given deliverable | 20:19 |
| ttx | you'll come up with something :) | 20:19 |
| russellb | we're not going to capture "maintainers of a feature in a project" at this level | 20:19 |
| russellb | yup | 20:19 |
| ttx | Let's move on | 20:19 |
| ttx | #topic Add new openstack kiloeyes repository | 20:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add new openstack kiloeyes repository (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:19 | |
| dhellmann | fungi: ++ | 20:19 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/210175 | 20:20 |
| ttx | Summary of the feedback is that this is pretty new, so it's way too early to be considered "one of us" | 20:20 |
| ttx | It also shows that competition between openstack projects is fine, but only as long as the alternative provides a different value proposition *and* collaboration is not an option | 20:20 |
| ttx | here it seems avenues for collaboration have not been explored yet, and the value proposition is unclear | 20:20 |
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| dhellmann | fwiw, I'm not at all concerned that the API is the same. Compatibility is a feature. | 20:20 |
| ttx | so I think asking for it to live a bit in stackforge is not too much too ask | 20:21 |
| ttx | dhellmann: agreed | 20:21 |
| lifeless | stackforge is going away | 20:21 |
| clarkb | ttx: except ya ^ | 20:21 |
| ttx | lifeless: no it's not. | 20:21 |
| jeblair | no its not | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | the name is, but not the concept | 20:21 |
| lifeless | arg | 20:21 |
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| lifeless | can we please pick a new name for the concept then ? | 20:21 |
| ttx | it's just living in the same git prefix for convenience | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | this project can live as an unofficial project | 20:21 |
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| ttx | "unofficial" | 20:22 |
| ttx | I stand corrected | 20:22 |
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| lifeless | sure, that won't make my brains leak out my ears :) | 20:22 |
| ttx | anyone disagreeing with that outcome at this stage ? | 20:22 |
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| jaypipes | nope | 20:23 |
| edleafe | tentforge? | 20:23 |
| ttx | (asking them to live a bit before applying for official projetc team ?) | 20:23 |
| jaypipes | edleafe: lol | 20:23 |
| flaper87 | not me, I hope Tong li will also come back with some answers to my qeustions | 20:23 |
| annegentle | project can live in any github org it wants to, and observe the OpenStack way, do we need to give them a timeline? | 20:23 |
| flaper87 | s/not me/no objections from me/ | 20:23 |
| jaypipes | flaper87: agreed. I'm not going to gang up on the review, but I had almost identical questions as mordred | 20:23 |
| annegentle | jaypipes: yeah, me too | 20:23 |
| ttx | I like to see a project exist for at least 3 months (and/or doing an initial release) before evaluating if they behave like an openstack project | 20:23 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: I think we want to see what happens and let them come back | 20:24 |
| annegentle | ttx: initial release might be good | 20:24 |
| ttx | (different for horizontal teams) | 20:24 |
| annegentle | deliverable maybe? | 20:24 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: sounds good | 20:24 |
| ttx | ok, I'll write up somthing on the review | 20:24 |
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| flaper87 | I don't just want to see what happens, I want to make sure the get the right guidance too | 20:24 |
| ttx | #action ttx to close the kiloeyes request by directing them to unofficial/stackforge space for the time being | 20:25 |
| ttx | Moving on... | 20:25 |
| jeblair | flaper87: yeah, "talk with monasca and see what comes of that" sounds really good | 20:25 |
| ttx | #topic Deprecation policy tags | 20:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Deprecation policy tags (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:25 | |
| flaper87 | jeblair: ++ | 20:25 |
| ttx | First part | 20:25 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/207467 | 20:25 |
| ttx | So I updated this to match N+2 deprecation, as several of you requested. I had two questions left | 20:25 |
| ttx | First question is do we really want to describe a "never deprecate, always support" model | 20:26 |
| ttx | I kind of went back-and-forth on this one, and I tend to think now that saying you won't ever change is not really honest anyway, so the value of asserting that is limited | 20:26 |
| russellb | "never" is a long time | 20:26 |
| russellb | i don't think it's honest | 20:26 |
| dhellmann | agreed | 20:26 |
| ttx | There is more value in describing a "common deprecation policy" which sets a minimal standard and then ask projects if they want to assert that they follow (at least) that level | 20:26 |
| ttx | Set a baseline, basically | 20:26 |
| dhellmann | ++ | 20:26 |
| russellb | ++ | 20:26 |
| flaper87 | ++ | 20:26 |
| jgriffith | ++ | 20:26 |
| ttx | OK, so I'll amend the proposal to remove the "never say never" one | 20:27 |
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| annegentle | yep | 20:27 |
| ttx | #action ttx to amend 207467 to remove will-support-everything-forever variant | 20:27 |
| ttx | Second question is... should we (the TC) top-down define what we mean by "deprecation policy baseline" and ask projects to assert if they will follow it... or should we somehow open the definition for ML consensus | 20:27 |
| lifeless | does *any* openstack project gurantee forever? | 20:27 |
| ttx | One part of me thinks that we should open the discussion, another part of me thinks this needs to be opinionated and not be the lowest common denominator | 20:27 |
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| ttx | lifeless: I heard Swift claim that | 20:27 |
| annegentle | lifeless: I could see it being valuable for CERN and object storage | 20:28 |
| jgriffith | ttx: personally I prefer opinionated and just have it | 20:28 |
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| lifeless | notmyname: ^ | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | ttx: we have an established community standard here, so I think it's reasonable to start with that. If projects want to propose other models, that is also reasonable. | 20:28 |
| markmcclain | ttx: I do have a question about the migration requirement... would an acceptable answer be something is deprecated and has no migration? | 20:28 |
| ttx | sometimes in the past. They might have been drunk though | 20:28 |
| jgriffith | ttx: I think there's good representation of the projects here on the TC to justify that | 20:28 |
| russellb | i don't think the N+2 is least common demoninator, it's a reasonable common policy | 20:28 |
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| russellb | seems like a good place to start | 20:28 |
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| ttx | markmcclain: I think you need to provide a way out | 20:29 |
| flaper87 | That's what we've been following somehow | 20:29 |
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| flaper87 | or at least tried to follow to the best of our capacities | 20:29 |
| jgriffith | flaper87: +1 | 20:29 |
| markmcclain | right but what if we support a feature that just does not make sense in the future? | 20:29 |
| ttx | not necessarily a migration tool or anything. Then you need to survey your users and see how much time they need to implement that migration | 20:29 |
| jgriffith | flaper87: at least it's been our minimum | 20:29 |
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| jgriffith | flaper87: reality has been a different story :( | 20:29 |
| flaper87 | so, lets be opinionated here since N+2 has proven to be a good policy so far | 20:29 |
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| flaper87 | jgriffith: yeah | 20:29 |
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| flaper87 | :( | 20:30 |
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| ttx | markmcclain: migration can be "that feature was stupid, so you should stop using it" but then survey needs to confirm that everyone agrees it was stupid | 20:30 |
| flaper87 | and the community is not strange to the concept and policy | 20:30 |
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| jgriffith | could be more... shouldn't be less | 20:30 |
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| * flaper87 should write longer messages rather than using IRC as if it were whatsapp | 20:30 | |
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| ttx | markmcclain: so I guess the answer to your question is "it depends" | 20:30 |
| flaper87 | jgriffith: +1 | 20:31 |
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| markmcclain | ttx: ok.. as long as that option should available... concerned that if we require even a minimum migration we never be able to get rid things many would consider mistakes | 20:31 |
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| jeblair | opinionated++ | 20:31 |
| ttx | markmcclain: I think what we require is discussion of the proposed migration with the users | 20:31 |
| markmcclain | makes sense | 20:31 |
| ttx | even if "proposed migration" =~ "stop using it" | 20:31 |
| ttx | Let's move to the second change here: config option deprecation policies | 20:32 |
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| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/207584 | 20:32 |
| ttx | we have two options: we can track it separately from API/feature deprecation policy assertion | 20:32 |
| ttx | or we can amend the API/feature tag to make clear config options are part of the user-visible stuff that is covered | 20:32 |
| flaper87 | ttx: merge them! | 20:33 |
| ttx | Personally I think the latter makes more sense and is less confusing. I just don't picture a project would have one but not the other | 20:33 |
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| ttx | +which | 20:33 |
| lifeless | well | 20:33 |
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| lifeless | I can see placing a different standard of burden on users and operators | 20:33 |
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| ttx | or rather, not sure we need that granularity | 20:33 |
| flaper87 | To me, by default, everything the user can interact with should follow the same deprecation path. There may be exceptions, sure, but... | 20:33 |
| lifeless | operator churn doesn't affect workload portability, for instance | 20:33 |
| ttx | lifeless: that's a good point | 20:33 |
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| annegentle | I think api compat is much more "watched" by users but that may be from where I sit maintaining API docs | 20:34 |
| ttx | so it's more operator-visible features deprecation and users-visible feature deprecation ? | 20:34 |
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| flaper87 | annegentle: no really, just different users. | 20:34 |
| annegentle | I see a separation myself -- each user type has different expectations | 20:34 |
| flaper87 | When it comes to deprecating things, I prefer to consider everyone as users | 20:35 |
| flaper87 | without any separation | 20:35 |
| ttx | flaper87: yeah, I lean towards that too | 20:35 |
| annegentle | flaper87: I suppose so, you can avoid consternation for all parties then | 20:35 |
| lifeless | ttx: I would assert so yes. Its entirely possible we'll treat everyone the same in future, but that hasn't been the case so far | 20:35 |
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| annegentle | honestly APIs that are extensible are at the mercy of provider decisions anyway | 20:35 |
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| ttx | who is with flaper87, who is with lifeless ? | 20:36 |
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| annegentle | so, same deprecation everywhere | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | flaper87 flaper87 flaper87 flaper87 | 20:36 |
| ttx | annegentle is with flaper87 | 20:36 |
| * flaper87 stops that | 20:36 | |
| lifeless | I don't think our tags should be aspirational :) | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | do we actually anticipate different policies at this point? | 20:36 |
| lifeless | they should be reflecting useful differences we already have | 20:36 |
| ttx | dhellmann: currently we expect all ex-integrated projects to assert both | 20:36 |
| ttx | since it was an unofficial rule for them anyway | 20:37 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: i mean would the timelines be different | 20:37 |
| lifeless | right | 20:37 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: I was thinking of microversions versus nova.conf | 20:37 |
| lifeless | nova API deprecations are yyyyears long | 20:37 |
| russellb | 393355 | 20:37 |
| lifeless | nova.conf deprecations are cycles long | 20:37 |
| lifeless | russellb: 11007663 | 20:37 |
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| russellb | :) | 20:37 |
| flaper87 | lifeless: many times is because people simply forget to remove deprecated things | 20:38 |
| flaper87 | but I don't know about nova | 20:38 |
| flaper87 | :P | 20:38 |
| ttx | due to their nature, assertions are a bit difficult to tweak once they are defined (you have to confirm any mod with all the projects that asserted the tag, so I'd prefer to get them right | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: could we agree to put both of those timelines in one tag? | 20:38 |
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| ttx | I think it's fine to have them both in a single tag. If we need to split it in the future that's easier than the other way around | 20:39 |
| lifeless | sure | 20:39 |
| annegentle | yep | 20:39 |
| ttx | If we realize there is need to track/communicate something more... granular, we can split it then | 20:40 |
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| ttx | but I'll make sure I talk about operator-facing and enduser-facing stuff | 20:40 |
| ttx | in whatever language I come up with | 20:40 |
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| ttx | so that it's clear that the tag currently asserts both | 20:40 |
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| flaper87 | mmh, I'm still not convinced we should separate them from a deprecation perspective | 20:40 |
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| flaper87 | I guess I'll comment on the review | 20:40 |
| ttx | flaper87: we aren't | 20:40 |
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| flaper87 | oh ok | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | I was confuised by your comment | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | sorry | 20:41 |
| flaper87 | confused, even | 20:41 |
| ttx | Alright, I'll take care of the big merging | 20:41 |
| ttx | next topic | 20:41 |
| ttx | #topic Adds and apply guidelines for project and service names | 20:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Adds and apply guidelines for project and service names (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:41 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/201160 | 20:41 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/201670 | 20:41 |
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| ttx | annegentle: are we making progress or is it just a neverending circle of rebases ? | 20:41 |
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| flaper87 | annegentle: I left a "-1 I have a question, I'm sorry it shouldn't be -1 please don't hate me" comment | 20:42 |
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| annegentle | ttx: Had a breakthrough this week; keep Block Storage | 20:42 |
| annegentle | ttx: so the updates have been to support initial caps | 20:42 |
| annegentle | ttx: I sense this is where most people want naming to land | 20:42 |
| annegentle | flaper87: no worries | 20:42 |
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| ttx | "Block Storage service" ? | 20:43 |
| annegentle | ttx: check | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: we should talk about auto-generating expansion macros for sphinx from the projects.yaml file | 20:43 |
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| annegentle | expansion macros? | 20:43 |
| russellb | 702487 | 20:44 |
| russellb | 722228 | 20:44 |
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| russellb | dangit | 20:44 |
| annegentle | flaper87: so kiloeyes could be the metric measurement I spose... I don't think release names are "reserved" | 20:44 |
| ttx | russellb turned into a WWII number station | 20:44 |
| * dhellmann thinks russellb is multi-tasking | 20:44 | |
| annegentle | flaper87: I honestly didn't make the connection for a bit | 20:44 |
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| flaper87 | annegentle: I did, to be honest. When dhellmann mentioned I was like "So, I was not the only one" | 20:45 |
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| flaper87 | annegentle: but I see your point | 20:45 |
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| lifeless | I'm sorry, I can't read kiloeyes and not think of the 5-eyes spy network... if thats deliberate its most unfortunate | 20:45 |
| annegentle | flaper87: That said, I wonder if we should talk about "reserved words that cannot go into a service name such as copyrighted names?" | 20:46 |
| ttx | annegentle: so.. you have all you need to make progress ? | 20:46 |
| annegentle | does the list of "don't do" belong in the guidelines? | 20:46 |
| annegentle | ttx: I think so | 20:46 |
| lifeless | can a name be copyrighted? | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | annegentle: I believe that list should be there | 20:47 |
| annegentle | lifeless: um did I verb a noun? | 20:47 |
| ttx | IANAL but I don't think so. | 20:47 |
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| flaper87 | if anything, it'll help us to review names properly | 20:47 |
| lifeless | annegentle: I think you hopped intellectual property tracks :) | 20:47 |
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| annegentle | lifeless: right | 20:48 |
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| annegentle | flaper87: yeah, and the point of the guidelines is for reviewing | 20:48 |
| annegentle | lifeless: was thinking of the Chef/Puppet permissions | 20:48 |
| ttx | other questions on that one ? | 20:48 |
| ttx | I guess not | 20:49 |
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| ttx | #topic Workgroup reports | 20:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Workgroup reports (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:49 | |
| ttx | * Project team guide | 20:49 |
| ttx | I approved the initial version for the missing chapter, so the initial version of the guide is now complete | 20:50 |
| ttx | We just need to publish it. | 20:50 |
| jeblair | that means i need to publish it | 20:50 |
| flaper87 | ttx: danke and sorry for the dely | 20:50 |
| ttx | jeblair: indeed | 20:50 |
| flaper87 | jeblair: <.< | 20:50 |
| * jeblair stops hiding behind flaper87 | 20:50 | |
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| flaper87 | HA! I knew you were there | 20:50 |
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| annegentle | nice!! Way to go. | 20:50 |
| annegentle | that's really impressive | 20:50 |
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| ttx | for the curious ones, let me get a URL | 20:51 |
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| ttx | http://docs-draft.openstack.org/67/194567/3/gate/gate-project-team-guide-docs/7a3af25//doc/build/html/ | 20:51 |
| ttx | (that's the gate build for the latest merge) | 20:51 |
| russellb | dhellmann: ttx yubikey nano. convenient, except easy to hit when moving laptop around | 20:52 |
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| fungi | emulates a keyboard, types one-time passwords into your irc client ;) | 20:52 |
| ttx | jeblair: any idea when you can work on that ? Or should someone else take the job ? | 20:52 |
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| jeblair | ttx: can do this week. | 20:52 |
| ttx | awesome | 20:52 |
| ttx | * Comms | 20:53 |
| ttx | annegentle, flaper87: o/ | 20:53 |
| flaper87 | 'sup ? | 20:53 |
| annegentle | holla | 20:53 |
| russellb | fungi: yeah.. | 20:53 |
| ttx | annegentle, flaper87 not sure we need another post right now | 20:53 |
| annegentle | I got a blog post out, late, last 2 week intervals. | 20:53 |
| annegentle | #link http://www.openstack.org/blog/2015/08/technical-committee-highlights-august-11-2015/ | 20:53 |
| flaper87 | I've been lacking in the last couple of weeks. annegentle, sorry about that. | 20:53 |
| annegentle | two 2-week intervals | 20:53 |
| ttx | given that we didn't have a meeting last week and this week(s is very transitional | 20:53 |
| annegentle | flaper87: no worries | 20:53 |
| annegentle | ttx: agreed | 20:53 |
| ttx | * Next tags | 20:54 |
| annegentle | keep getting input on whether those are useful | 20:54 |
| ttx | We still are processing the first wave of new tags, so no new things here | 20:54 |
| ttx | * Other | 20:54 |
| ttx | Two weeks ago we discussed two areas of focus for the rest of the cycle: making progress on the service catalog, and improving cross-project discussion in general | 20:54 |
| * flaper87 loves ttx's quote on that post | 20:54 | |
| ttx | How should we make that happen ? Should we form *other* workgroups that would meet outside of the weekly TC meeting ? | 20:54 |
| annegentle | flaper87: :) | 20:54 |
| * ttx needs to work on the successbot | 20:55 | |
| ttx | An IRC bot to celebrate little successes | 20:55 |
| annegentle | ttx: do you think we could move the weekly cross project meeting as an experiment? | 20:55 |
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| annegentle | ttx: nice | 20:55 |
| ttx | annegentle: move to ? | 20:55 |
| jeblair | #fail jeblair hasn't made a failbot yet either | 20:55 |
| ttx | #success The initial project team guide is now complete ! | 20:56 |
| * flaper87 does the success dance | 20:56 | |
| annegentle | ttx: earlier in the day -- if the history is that we held it after the TC meeting for a reason (Chair responsibilities? The original timing escapes me) could we try another day/time? | 20:56 |
| annegentle | ttx: I know, I know, it sucks to move meetings | 20:56 |
| flaper87 | I'd be happy to have it moved, really | 20:56 |
| flaper87 | but if that ends up in fewer CPL attending, then no. | 20:57 |
| ttx | annegentle: it's worth having the discussion I guess. You could start it on the ML. We could certainly rotate | 20:57 |
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| ttx | any time before would be very APAC-unfriendly | 20:57 |
| ttx | the current one already kinda is | 20:57 |
| flaper87 | right | 20:57 |
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| annegentle | right | 20:57 |
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| annegentle | ttx: ok | 20:57 |
| ttx | the current timing opts to be a pain from Russia to China | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | I've a quick Open Discussion topic | 20:58 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:58 | |
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| annegentle | #acton annegentle to bring cross-project meeting time to -dev mailing list | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | So, I've been contacted by Cindy Pallares. She's working with a submcmittee to improve OpenSTack's CoC | 20:58 |
| annegentle | I had a question about extra ATC, they don't seem to be publishing to project pages on governance.openstack any more | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | One thing she asked me is how we can help enforcing it and who, from the governance side, can help with that | 20:59 |
| ttx | I just want something to emerge from our discussion on priorities at the last meeting. Saying we need to complete the service catalog changes is one thing, doing it would be better | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | I'll invite her next week to share what they are doing | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | where they are at, etc. | 20:59 |
| annegentle | See http://governance.openstack.org/reference/projects/keystone.html for an example | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | That way we can provide some guidance/support from our side | 20:59 |
| ttx | but I have my hands full with various other workgroups and TC initiatives, so I can't lead either | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | turns out our CoC is not good enough | 20:59 |
| annegentle | flaper87: I thought there was an ombudsman group on the board that provided governance for CoC? | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | #link https://www.openstack.org/legal/community-code-of-conduct/ | 20:59 |
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| ttx | flaper87: probably just a bug | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | annegentle: I believe she's working with them as well | 21:00 |
| EmilienM | it's crossproject meeting time | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | ttx: LOL | 21:00 |
| annegentle | ttx: agreed on the doing it... | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | EmilienM: 1 minute | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | :P | 21:00 |
| annegentle | :) | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | ttx: just saying, lets give her some time next week | 21:00 |
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| ttx | flaper87: sure, add it to the agenda this week | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | It should be good to support the effort from our side | 21:00 |
| markmcclain | ++ | 21:01 |
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| ttx | and that concludes our meeting | 21:01 |
| flaper87 | would* | 21:01 |
| flaper87 | :P | 21:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 18 21:01:13 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-08-18-20.02.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-08-18-20.02.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-08-18-20.02.log.html | 21:01 |
| flaper87 | EmilienM: now it's CP time ;) | 21:01 |
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| flaper87 | :P | 21:01 |
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| flaper87 | 23:00 here | 21:01 |
| EmilienM | crossproject meeting is about to start, courtesy ping for david-lyle flaper87 dims dtroyer johnthetubaguy rakhmerov smelikyan morganfainberg adrian_otto bswartz slagle adrian_otto mestery kiall jeblair thinrichs j^2 stevebaker mtreinish Daisy Piet notmyname ttx isviridov gordc SlickNik cloudnull loquacities thingee hyakuhei redrobot dirk TravT | 21:01 |
| ttx | EmilienM: sorry about that. Those TC dudes are just abusive | 21:01 |
| elmiko | lol | 21:01 |
| * mestery lurks | 21:01 | |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:01 |
| EmilienM | ttx: that's why we elected them. | 21:01 |
| j^2 | :D | 21:01 |
| EmilienM | #startmeeting crossproject | 21:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 18 21:01:52 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is EmilienM. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:01 | |
| * bknudson lurks | 21:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'crossproject' | 21:01 |
| EmilienM | #link Agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting | 21:01 |
| loquacities | o/ | 21:01 |
| EmilienM | This is my first time I'm leading this meeting, please be kind :-) | 21:02 |
| mriedem | o/ | 21:02 |
| * ttx will heckle | 21:02 | |
| Daviey | \o | 21:02 |
| nikhil_k_ | o/ | 21:02 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 21:02 |
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| * edleafe is here but has to leave soon | 21:02 | |
| fungi | EmilienM: we're a gentle lot | 21:02 |
| edleafe | but only for your first time | 21:02 |
| jungleboyj | o/ | 21:02 |
| elmiko | o/ | 21:02 |
| EmilienM | #info Meeting Chairs still needed for September 1, September 29, and October 13 | 21:02 |
| gordc | o/ | 21:02 |
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| tpatil | Hi | 21:02 |
| EmilienM | like mestery said in the previous meeting "Signups appreciated!" | 21:02 |
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| mestery | EmilienM: +1000 :D | 21:03 |
| EmilienM | #topic Team Announcements (horizontal, vertical, diagonal) | 21:03 |
| EmilienM | please use #info <content>! | 21:03 |
| ttx | And thanks to EmilienM who signed up for 2 slots | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Team Announcements (horizontal, vertical, diagonal) (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:03 | |
| ttx | Nothing specific from release management. | 21:03 |
| ttx | Remember liberty-3 and feature freeze come in two weeks | 21:03 |
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| ttx | (for those stil following that) | 21:03 |
| ttx | +l | 21:03 |
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| lifeless | EmilienM: no courtesy ping for the tc members ? | 21:04 |
| EmilienM | I have a useful information: Puppet OpenStack CI is running Liberty packages in their CI - we are close to trunk now | 21:04 |
| nikhil_k_ | EmilienM: just fyi, I did not get a courtesy reminder. possibly some other folks didn't too | 21:04 |
| EmilienM | lifeless: I copy pasted from other meetings, my bad if I missed you | 21:04 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-August/072140.html | 21:04 |
| fungi | mass rename of git repos from stackforge to openstack being scheduled | 21:04 |
| fungi | weigh in on the thread if you have concerns/questions | 21:04 |
| xarses | o/ | 21:04 |
| EmilienM | #info Puppet OpenStack CI bumbed to liberty | 21:04 |
| mestery | ttx: 2 weeks!!! | 21:04 |
| lifeless | EmilienM: you missed annegentle too | 21:04 |
| ttx | mestery: I must be getting old, but time really flies | 21:05 |
| EmilienM | lifeless: ok, sry for that | 21:05 |
| lifeless | np | 21:05 |
| mestery | ttx: Greybeards :) | 21:05 |
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| EmilienM | do we have any other useful and exciting team announcements? | 21:06 |
| elmiko | sadly, no new api-wg guidelines this week | 21:06 |
| EmilienM | I guess we can go ahead into the agenda then | 21:07 |
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| gordc | nods | 21:07 |
| EmilienM | #topic How to generate .Z version increments on stable/liberty commits | 21:07 |
| EmilienM | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-August/072216.html | 21:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "How to generate .Z version increments on stable/liberty commits (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:07 | |
| EmilienM | ttx: o/ | 21:08 |
| lifeless | wheeee | 21:08 |
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| lifeless | this'll be fun | 21:08 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-August/072216.html | 21:08 |
| ttx | So this is about agreeing on the way forward for stable point releases | 21:08 |
| fungi | go to your corners and come out swinging | 21:08 |
| ttx | It feels like the recent discussion is converging toward the use of openstack/releases for stable branch releases | 21:08 |
| ttx | and doing "frequent", separated point releases for every service component rather than one-per-commit | 21:08 |
| lifeless | I kindof feel that we haven't actually define the constraints and success criteria | 21:08 |
| ttx | The drawbacks with that option being that consumers of the stable branch are unnecessarily limited to specific tagged commits | 21:08 |
| Daviey | err, not sure there was convergence on that.. | 21:08 |
| ttx | and we all depend on various project teams to remember to push them | 21:09 |
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| ttx | Daviey: ok, good! | 21:09 |
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| mriedem | we expect project teams to care about stable? :) | 21:09 |
| fungi | it feels to me like the discussion on dropping stable point releases has circled back around to how to orchestrate stable point releases | 21:09 |
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| clarkb | mriedem: maybe not the entire team but surely there are a subset that care? | 21:10 |
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| jungleboyj | clarkb: ++ | 21:10 |
| Daviey | I think the question needs to be, how can we enable each commit to be a release without tainting ref tag namespace but have deterministic release versions. | 21:10 |
| mriedem | don't call me shirly | 21:11 |
| ttx | In Vancouver we established that frequent and/or automated releases with autogenerated release notes was the only way to sclae the stable branch point release process in bigtent world | 21:11 |
| bknudson | we could keep squashing commits in stable branch until we feel like committing | 21:11 |
| ttx | that leaves us with the question that Daviey eloquently put | 21:11 |
| clarkb | bknudson: thats ugly particularly if something breaks and you need to bisect | 21:11 |
| fungi | well, only way to scale it if the alternative of dropping them was off the table | 21:11 |
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| ttx | Original proposal was tagging every commit, to which clarkb objected | 21:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | Daviey: what about if we just release the ones people need? | 21:12 |
| mriedem | johnthetubaguy: that's totally subjective though right? | 21:12 |
| Daviey | johnthetubaguy: then we are back to doing release management and cutting releases? | 21:12 |
| fungi | part of this, i think, is examining the alternative implementations and determining if there's one that's not more absurd than just not making stable point releases | 21:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | Daviey: true | 21:12 |
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| johnthetubaguy | mriedem: yeah, just trying to dream up a middle ground.... not sure that works | 21:13 |
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| Daviey | fungi: Sorry, can you rephrase? | 21:13 |
| fungi | ttx: to be fair, the original original proposal was to stop making stable point releases | 21:13 |
| mriedem | yeah | 21:13 |
| ttx | fungi: but then people asked for reference points, which is a fair request | 21:13 |
| mriedem | my team releases from stable when we need to, not based on community schedules | 21:14 |
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| johnthetubaguy | ttx: can we fix that with tooling? | 21:14 |
| * dims peeks in late | 21:14 | |
| lifeless | Daviey: why does that need to be the question ? :) | 21:14 |
| fungi | Daviey: yes, i don't feel like we've yet arrived at a proposed implementation that is less crazy than a) continuing what we already do, or b) no longer doing it | 21:14 |
| Daviey | lifeless: Why /doesn't/ it need to be the question? :) | 21:14 |
| ttx | fungi: I guess a combination of none + some ref points could be "on-demand tagging" | 21:14 |
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| mriedem | ttx: that's basically what tempest does | 21:14 |
| mriedem | tags for interesting points in time | 21:14 |
| lifeless | Daviey: what problem does having each commit be a release solve ? | 21:14 |
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| ttx | At this point I'm fine with that (tagging once in a while), since it's definitely an improvement | 21:15 |
| lifeless | Daviey: where release is defined as 'has a fixed well known version number suitable for uploading to a package repository like PyPI' | 21:15 |
| ttx | and we need /something/ before liberty release | 21:15 |
| fungi | mriedem: yep. keep in mind that a lot of what the stable branch release managers were doing was taking care of that process for the majority of projects which really only cared about their master branches | 21:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I guess on demand tagging is what I was meaning, but that means something needs doing, rather than it being automatic | 21:15 |
| lifeless | Daviey: (because even though we don't upload the servers, we do upload the libs) | 21:15 |
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| mriedem | fungi: yeah, hence my earlier rhetorical question | 21:15 |
| Daviey | lifeless: The issue is that upstream + Daviey's-secret-sauce == differnet pbr version to what upstream + lifeless's-secret-sauce is.. but 'people' compare releave version numbers | 21:15 |
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| clarkb | right so this is one of the major failings in pep440 | 21:16 |
| Daviey | (not to mention semver release requirements for dep handling) | 21:16 |
| clarkb | but that ship has sailed and we did the best we can | 21:16 |
| lifeless | Daviey: sure. And pbr doesn't try to solve the 'distributed version number allocation' problem. | 21:16 |
| clarkb | you can ask pbr for a specific sha1 if/when necessary | 21:16 |
| Daviey | lifeless: Yeah, so we need a x.x.x+y thing? | 21:16 |
| ttx | Who is against "tagging once in a while", using the current openstack/releases framework ? | 21:16 |
| lifeless | pbr based versions from untagged commits are simply not globally unique. | 21:16 |
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| lifeless | they are also not suitable for uploading to an index | 21:17 |
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| clarkb | lifeless: but they do have globally unique attributes that you can query | 21:17 |
| lifeless | Daviey: no, that doesn't solve it | 21:17 |
| lifeless | clarkb: they do | 21:17 |
| clarkb | but yes doesn't solve the upload to index problem | 21:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: honestly, it feels like a good starting point while we invent something better | 21:17 |
| Daviey | ttx: Tagging once in a while is worst of all worlds, no? | 21:17 |
| ttx | Daviey: explain why | 21:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | Daviey: it reduces the release all the projects now problem | 21:17 |
| ttx | Daviey: it's like not releasing + adding reference points that people ask for | 21:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | (I think) | 21:18 |
| lifeless | ttx: I think tagging is a key component in any route forward | 21:18 |
| fungi | "tagging once in a while" implies there's someone doing that, so a prerequisite question is whether there's someone willing to do that | 21:18 |
| ttx | lifeless: right | 21:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | fungi: thats my biggest concern with it, +1 | 21:18 |
| lifeless | fungi: while True: if random()> 0.9 then git tag... | 21:18 |
| Daviey | ttx: We still cut releases, but half assed? | 21:18 |
| ttx | fungi: if that's the only question, we can open up to the PTLs in the crowd and ask them if their stable release liaisons would do that | 21:18 |
| Daviey | So the same burden, but no gain? | 21:18 |
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| ttx | Daviey: no more stable release managers though | 21:19 |
| * lifeless is still fundamentally unsure of the problem we're trying to solve. | 21:19 | |
| bknudson | I watch stable for keystone and I'm willing to propose changes to releases when I think it's ready. | 21:19 |
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| johnthetubaguy | mriedem: do you fancy more work? | 21:19 |
| ttx | Daviey: the request would come from the project teams themselves. Also automated release notes would make them cheap | 21:19 |
| mriedem | there are several projects that already don't really seem to care all that much about stable, so i don't see why it matters if they don't care about tagging | 21:19 |
| lifeless | what stops folk consuming stable branches consuming them if we don't 'make every commit a release' ? | 21:19 |
| mriedem | johnthetubaguy: sure | 21:19 |
| Daviey | ttx: And we are sure projects will drive stable cuts? | 21:19 |
| lifeless | why are we doing this /at all/ ? | 21:19 |
| mriedem | Daviey: they won't | 21:20 |
| ttx | lifeless: because people want to be able to say "this vulnerability is fixed in X.Y.Z | 21:20 |
| Daviey | lifeless: You've been in this debate before, no? | 21:20 |
| mriedem | Daviey: not all | 21:20 |
| ttx | and I run X.Y.Z+1 | 21:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | mriedem I do think you are hitting on something there about folks not caring too much about stable right now | 21:20 |
| mriedem | i think of this like when we do novaclient releases, | 21:20 |
| bknudson | maybe we only backport security fixes for all things | 21:20 |
| ttx | so they need some reference points. At the very least around vuln fixes | 21:20 |
| mriedem | we do them as needed/requested | 21:20 |
| bknudson | then there would be fewer backports | 21:20 |
| mriedem | bknudson: there are more than security fixes we need | 21:20 |
| mriedem | like things that impact upgrades | 21:20 |
| lifeless | ttx: ok, so its to distribute the ability to assess whether a security fix is included to a local version-check ? | 21:21 |
| lifeless | s/security/important/ | 21:21 |
| ttx | lifeless: it's also about comparison between distros IIUC | 21:21 |
| ttx | i.e. make X.Y.Z mean the same thing everywhere | 21:21 |
| lifeless | ok. So I'd like to make an assertion. | 21:21 |
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| lifeless | there are two well known ways to solve this. | 21:21 |
| Daviey | lifeless + ttx: So rather than say, 2015.1.5 i'd say $release + x upstream commits ~= a semver release. | 21:21 |
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| lifeless | A) Centrally assigned numbers. | 21:22 |
| lifeless | B) the VCS DAG. | 21:22 |
| nikhil_k_ | umm, that is tricky | 21:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: cross distro comparison is a deal breaker, +1 | 21:22 |
| nikhil_k_ | how much would be ~ ? | 21:22 |
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| lifeless | Do we have agreement that we're looking at either A or B; further if we want to flatten things into 'version numbers' then B is infeasible. | 21:23 |
| Daviey | cross distro comparison is overated IMO. :) | 21:23 |
| ttx | lifeless: if you tell me what DAG is, maybe | 21:23 |
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| mriedem | Daviey: agreed | 21:23 |
| lifeless | ttx: the directed acyclig graph | 21:23 |
| Daviey | #link http://ericsink.com/vcbe/html/directed_acyclic_graphs.html | 21:23 |
| clarkb | ttx: basically the git tree that represents the repos history | 21:24 |
| lifeless | ttx: e.g. cross referencing git commits to determine if 'feature X is in my tree' | 21:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | is the DAG different to your list of commits? | 21:24 |
| ttx | ah, hmm | 21:24 |
| lifeless | johnthetubaguy: same same | 21:24 |
| Daviey | the FAG is an assured list of commits, right? | 21:24 |
| Daviey | err DAG* | 21:24 |
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| lifeless | johnthetubaguy: DAG implies more structure, but for our needs we're looking at set membership | 21:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | lifeless: for security fixes, yeah | 21:25 |
| ttx | I think version numbers are the thing and downstream expects to have it | 21:25 |
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| ttx | err | 21:25 |
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| clarkb | B is something we can do today if you query package metadata | 21:25 |
| ttx | I mean, are the thing upstream expects to get | 21:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | lifeless: so if we give each commit a version off master, we can find that in other peoples trees, and find the number? | 21:25 |
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| ttx | dammit, "downstream" | 21:25 |
| ttx | getting late | 21:25 |
| Daviey | lifeless: Are you leading towards deterministic version numbers based on the upstream DAG? | 21:26 |
| clarkb | Daviey: I don't think that is possible under pep440 | 21:26 |
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| bknudson | don't distros all cherry-pick different patches on top of whatever we release? | 21:26 |
| clarkb | because even upstream we can have >1 proposed next states | 21:26 |
| Daviey | clarkb: SemVer based on upstream signed commits? | 21:26 |
| lifeless | clarkb: sadly thats not preserved by e.g. dpkg or rpm | 21:26 |
| ttx | bknudson: they still use our version numbers as base | 21:26 |
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| clarkb | Daviey: yes we can do it based on signed tags but not the raw DAG | 21:27 |
| clarkb | doing it based onthe raw DAG is what PBR tried to do until the pep440 mess happened last december | 21:27 |
| clarkb | then we all had a sad | 21:27 |
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| Daviey | ah | 21:27 |
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| lifeless | johnthetubaguy: thats how (B) might work. But I think its too big a mismatch vs x.y.z style numbering | 21:27 |
| mriedem | ttx: i assume bknudson's point though is that regardless of version you're probably getting a different set of commits from different distros | 21:28 |
| lifeless | Daviey: I'm trying to make sure I actually have a handle on everyones concerns | 21:28 |
| lifeless | so here's my concern | 21:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | lifeless: I was thinking it just defines the z, the rest is based off a tag, but it seems... messy | 21:28 |
| ttx | mriedem: arguably with the same common base, though. | 21:28 |
| lifeless | if I pull nova kilo | 21:28 |
| lifeless | and do a commit | 21:28 |
| mriedem | ttx: sure | 21:28 |
| lifeless | that MUST NOT be confused with the next commit that lands in git.o.o/nova's kilo branch | 21:29 |
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| lifeless | or we've failed at the requirement that you can tell if you've got fixes from there | 21:29 |
| ttx | lifeless: yes | 21:29 |
| lifeless | this means that regular old commits are not sufficient, even if we changed pbr | 21:30 |
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| lifeless | so we're looking at centrally assigned version numbers. | 21:30 |
| ttx | I see no way out of assigning version numbers through a tag. And if that results in pollution, then we should tag less often. | 21:30 |
| Daviey | but equally, as a consumer from git.. i probably need to apply patches and have incrementing version numbers for my site (i don't) | 21:30 |
| clarkb | lifeless: they could be if pep440 allowed a unique non sorted identifier | 21:30 |
| clarkb | lifeless: but it doesn't so yes | 21:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | but can't we just imply the tag from when the commit lands in master? | 21:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | for every commit? | 21:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | I guess I just missed a bit | 21:31 |
| lifeless | clarkb: Even if pep-440 permitted that there'd be no way to distinguish the real thing from the local thing | 21:31 |
| Daviey | lifeless: but yeah, central or otherwise deterministic version numbers seems to be the requirement | 21:31 |
| lifeless | clarkb: so pep-440's limits don't alter this | 21:31 |
| lifeless | Daviey: no, *central* specifically. | 21:31 |
| clarkb | lifeless: you would be able to distinguish between the two, but not determine which is canonical | 21:31 |
| ttx | Is anyone other than Daviey against the "push a tag now and then" approach ? | 21:31 |
| lifeless | clarkb: right | 21:31 |
| Daviey | lifeless: why do we care if Central or distributed ? | 21:31 |
| lifeless | clarkb: and the canonical aspect is required to answer the 'and I have importance fix X' | 21:31 |
| lifeless | clarkb: which is an input requirement | 21:31 |
| clarkb | lifeless: it isn't | 21:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | Daviey: comparing across distros, for security fixes? | 21:32 |
| clarkb | at least it isn't required ot have that encoded in the version | 21:32 |
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| clarkb | lifeless: the human can compare the non sorted unique identifier against what they know to be canonical | 21:32 |
| Daviey | johnthetubaguy: no, even if distributed it is still deterministic | 21:32 |
| lifeless | clarkb: I'm not smart enough to see how it would, but since you agreed that we can't do whatever you're thinking of anyway, lets move on. | 21:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | Daviey: OK, I am not seeing the distributed one properly right now it seems | 21:32 |
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| lifeless | Daviey: if its distributed anyone can allocate numbers right ? | 21:32 |
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| Daviey | lifeless: If pbr counts OpenStack signed tags, for example... it isn't centralised.. right? | 21:33 |
| lifeless | Daviey: but there's only one source of truth for 'security fix X in nova/kilo'. So those numbers have to be unique and clearly identifiable | 21:33 |
| Daviey | But whatever, this is imp' detail. | 21:33 |
| EmilienM | time is running out, I suggest we close this topic shortly and maybe follow up on mailing list or during the next meeting | 21:33 |
| lifeless | Daviey: signed tags in the git.o.o nova tree are centralised | 21:34 |
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| ttx | Daviey: so it seems you're the only one against the "tag now and then" approach. COuld you post something on ML explaining why ? | 21:34 |
| ttx | And taht would be our next step forward ? | 21:34 |
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| ttx | (and we can move on to next topic) ? | 21:34 |
| Daviey | ttx: Sure, but TL;DR is.. it is the same problem, with no additional improvement from what i can see.. Just moving the problem along to further tooling. | 21:34 |
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| ttx | I'll be happy to refute that on the ML. Next topic ? | 21:35 |
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| EmilienM | cool | 21:35 |
| EmilienM | #action ttx to followup .Z version increments on stable/liberty commits on the ML | 21:35 |
| EmilienM | #topic How to autogenerate release notes on stable/liberty commits | 21:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "How to autogenerate release notes on stable/liberty commits (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:36 | |
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| ttx | #action Daviey to explain why "tag now and then" is the 4th knight of the apocalypse on the ML | 21:36 |
| EmilienM | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-August/072315.html | 21:36 |
| EmilienM | ttx: o/ again | 21:36 |
| ttx | So this is the side discussion -- we need to generate release notes so that if you pick a random commit on the stable branch you still have relevant release notes there | 21:36 |
| ttx | (and automate release notes creation for the point releases themselves) | 21:36 |
| ttx | Daviey suggested using git notes, and I suggested driving them from commit messages and openstack/releases change content | 21:36 |
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| ttx | (which would allow proper code review of them) | 21:36 |
| ttx | that requires developing a Gerrit plugin similar to the reviewnotes plugin, and add features to pbr to generate releasenotes from git notes. | 21:36 |
| Daviey | Yeah, probably more work than is worth. | 21:37 |
| ttx | But then fungi said something about git notes requiring special config | 21:37 |
| lifeless | ttx: so I am concerned about git notes | 21:37 |
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| lifeless | ttx: if it requires special config to get git to replicate the data needed to get pbr to produce the same output in a fresh clone | 21:37 |
| ttx | Daviey: I fail to have a better solution, and automated release notes are critical to make the "tag now and then" painless | 21:37 |
| lifeless | then we'll be facing regular 'waah its different' requests | 21:37 |
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| bknudson | this could help generate release notes on master, too. | 21:37 |
| lifeless | ttx: like, I'm *really* concerned. | 21:37 |
| ttx | lifeless: agreed, I didn't know git notes were that encumbered | 21:38 |
| lifeless | ttx: so I think we need to drill into the analysis that led you there much more carefully | 21:38 |
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| Daviey | fungi: can .gitnotes not support core.logAllRefUpdates or whatever it is? | 21:38 |
| ttx | lifeless: isn't there some default ref space that is always exported or something ? | 21:38 |
| lifeless | ttx: with an eye to acceptable compromises that will meet our needs | 21:38 |
| lifeless | ttx: such as roll-forward via commits | 21:38 |
| fungi | Daviey: i'm not sure what you're asking | 21:39 |
| Daviey | fungi: err, .gitconfig | 21:39 |
| ttx | lifeless: ok, so let me redefine problem space quickly | 21:39 |
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| fungi | Daviey: .gitconfig can. users would have to set it | 21:39 |
| Daviey | fungi: I'm saying, can per-tree not export a git config that would pull in notes without users having to make changes | 21:39 |
| ttx | * we want consumers of the stable branch (from random commit and from tagged versions) to get a valid release notes document | 21:39 |
| fungi | Daviey: my comment about configuration was that by default git doesn't fetch refs/notes/* and you need to configure it locally to do so | 21:39 |
| bknudson | I wouldn't be able to push the notes anyways, would I? | 21:39 |
| ttx | * Some things in that document (like OSSA numbers) we only know after the commit is pushed so we need a way to retroactively fix those | 21:40 |
| fungi | Daviey: it's a per remote config, not a per repo config | 21:40 |
| Daviey | (i'm not that bought into notes, but it did seem an approach worth considering for this space) | 21:40 |
| Daviey | fungi: ah | 21:40 |
| ttx | bknudson: my proposal was to have Gerrit push them from other things that we code review | 21:40 |
| ttx | see ml post | 21:40 |
| ttx | referenced above | 21:40 |
| bknudson | oh, cool. | 21:41 |
| fungi | the git authors assume you'll pull git notes potentially from multiple remotes into differet local refspaces, and have no idea what you want them called, so punts on doing that without explicit configuration | 21:41 |
| mriedem | git log --oneline --no-merges <latest release>.. | 21:41 |
| mriedem | couldn't we just dump that in a thing?> | 21:41 |
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| mriedem | when we do a new release | 21:41 |
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| ttx | mriedem: that's a changelog, not release notes | 21:41 |
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| lifeless | mriedem: a) we do | 21:41 |
| mriedem | ttx: yar | 21:41 |
| lifeless | mriedem: b) as ttx says | 21:41 |
| Daviey | mriedem: The issue is enumerating through announcements and issues that need to be shared. | 21:41 |
| mriedem | yeah | 21:41 |
| lifeless | mriedem: this is what pbr creates today - https://mock.readthedocs.org/en/latest/changelog.html | 21:41 |
| mriedem | processing tags etc | 21:41 |
| fungi | mriedem: point being that if we need the release notes to mention something that we didn't know at the time a commit message was written, there's no way to go back and revise the commit message after merge | 21:41 |
| ttx | I mean, we can also say that we don't do release notes for stable branches point releases | 21:41 |
| ttx | but when we discussed that in YVR people kinda wanted them | 21:42 |
| lifeless | ttx: so, what I've seen work well in the past is an in-tree data structure that can be updated via commits | 21:42 |
| ttx | EVEN if we stopped doing releases at all | 21:42 |
| lifeless | ttx: I don't understand why that wouldn't work. | 21:42 |
| bknudson | do we have release notes for stable releases now? (I don't remember updating any) | 21:42 |
| mriedem | bknudson: yeah | 21:42 |
| fungi | when we discussed not doing stable point releases in yvr, some people basically said "that's okay as long as you can provide something else which is exactly like a stable point release" | 21:42 |
| ttx | lifeless: so you mlean amending backports to edit an additional document ? | 21:42 |
| lifeless | ttx: the simplest possible implementation is a .rst file called 'RELEASENOTES.rst' in the tree. | 21:43 |
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| Daviey | lifeless: merge conflicts? | 21:43 |
| ttx | That was suggested on the ML and shot down, let me see why again | 21:43 |
| mriedem | bknudson: e.g. https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ReleaseNotes/2015.1.1 | 21:43 |
| ttx | Daviey++ | 21:43 |
| lifeless | ttx: we can obviously do something much more sophisticated to address the issues that arise from using a DVCS etc etc. | 21:43 |
| lifeless | Daviey: ^ | 21:43 |
| lifeless | I'm not proposing the simplest possible thing | 21:43 |
| Daviey | lifeless: The other issue is looking back and thining, OH DAMN - we need to document $THIS | 21:43 |
| lifeless | Daviey: so you do that by editing the data structure. | 21:44 |
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| lifeless | Which is a commit. | 21:44 |
| bknudson | we could make it so that when the commit with the release notes is merged then that gets tagged | 21:44 |
| Daviey | SO rewrite history?(!) | 21:44 |
| lifeless | Daviey: no | 21:44 |
| lifeless | Daviey: release notes are not a changelog | 21:44 |
| lifeless | Daviey: there is no conflict here. | 21:44 |
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| ttx | lifeless: oh, YOU were the one shooting it down. Funny heh | 21:45 |
| mriedem | would be like updating the release notes wiki after kilo is released | 21:45 |
| mriedem | we do that frequently | 21:45 |
| bknudson | is https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ReleaseNotes/2015.1.1 genereated automatically? | 21:45 |
| lifeless | ttx: possibly :) | 21:45 |
| Daviey | The reason i suggested notes is that it is independent of the commit itself, but tied to a commit. | 21:45 |
| ttx | <lifeless> Something with the same process as ChangeLog generation today - read | 21:45 |
| ttx | from git, process, output document - will be much less fragile for merges. | 21:45 |
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| mriedem | bknudson: don't think so, apevec created that | 21:45 |
| EmilienM | 15 minutes left and we need to talk about 'Return request ID to caller" + Open Discussion | 21:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: oh, merge conflicts, thats a good point... | 21:45 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: that said lifless is right that you can build a directory structure and avoid those merge conflicts | 21:46 |
| lifeless | ttx: so no | 21:46 |
| lifeless | ttx: that wasn't shooting it down | 21:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: I quite liked how yours has both autogenerated stuff and overrides, maybe we but the overrides in truee | 21:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: oh, true | 21:46 |
| Daviey | ttx: Maybe the fix is simple as, whomever +A's has responsibility for adding an entry to the wiki... Not clean IMO, but perhaps suitable? | 21:46 |
| lifeless | ttx: it was pointing at needing one of the more sophisticated implementations | 21:46 |
| ttx | hmm, ok, we need to clear the floor | 21:46 |
| lifeless | ttx: sorry that that was unclear | 21:46 |
| ttx | lifeless: how about you propose a solution there ? | 21:47 |
| lifeless | sure | 21:47 |
| lifeless | I think I have a handle on whats needed | 21:47 |
| ttx | OK, we have a next step. Great | 21:47 |
| fungi | yeah, if updates to the release notes file drive releases, then that conflicts with one tag per commit anyway | 21:47 |
| jokke_ | ttx: go on, we will be discussing this again in Tokyo :) | 21:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | Daviey: people forget that stuff really easily | 21:47 |
| lifeless | I will do so by replying to the thread | 21:47 |
| Daviey | Indeed. | 21:47 |
| ttx | We need that completed for Liberty release, so there is a time constraint | 21:47 |
| lifeless | I don't think that a single release notes change should trigger a tag | 21:47 |
| ttx | EmilienM: I think you can switch to next topic | 21:47 |
| EmilienM | cool | 21:47 |
| Daviey | wait.. | 21:48 |
| ttx | sorry we kinda overran | 21:48 |
| Daviey | Action? | 21:48 |
| EmilienM | #topic Return request ID to caller | 21:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Return request ID to caller (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:48 | |
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| EmilienM | #link https://review.openstack.org/156508 | 21:48 |
| EmilienM | tpatil: hello | 21:48 |
| tpatil | We have updated the specs to include work item to mark openstack python package as private in python-*clients as decided in the last meeting | 21:48 |
| ttx | #action lifeless to document an in-tree solution without merge conflicts | 21:48 |
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| tpatil | Request everyone to please review the specs and give your valuable feedback | 21:48 |
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| tpatil | That's all I wanted to update here | 21:49 |
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| EmilienM | tpatil: thank you | 21:50 |
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| EmilienM | we have time for open discussion then | 21:50 |
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| EmilienM | except if there is more to talk about the current topic | 21:50 |
| ttx | I guess we can spam it with extra questions on the stable point release stuff | 21:50 |
| EmilienM | #topic Open Discussion | 21:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:51 | |
| EmilienM | ttx: spam enabled | 21:51 |
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| johnthetubaguy | the two actions we spoke about looked promising, with my optimistic hat on | 21:51 |
| ttx | lifeless: one drawback of the in-tree solution is that it prevents straight backports, but I guess that's a lesser evil than writing hundreds of line of Java and relying on git notes | 21:52 |
| EmilienM | I have a question - do we usually take care of actions in the following meetings? like "review past actions items" | 21:52 |
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| EmilienM | if not, I would like to bring it in the next meeting | 21:52 |
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| ttx | EmilienM: we don't, but we probably should | 21:52 |
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| ttx | We used to :) | 21:52 |
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| EmilienM | we will then :) | 21:52 |
| bknudson | everything is less evil than hundreds of lines of java. | 21:53 |
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| elmiko | lol | 21:53 |
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| EmilienM | if there is nothing else to talk about, I'll let ttx go to bed and close the meeting, otherwise rise your hand | 21:53 |
| ttx | EmilienM: the trick is people attend this meeting based on the agenda... and so most of the time the ACTIONed people are not around the next time | 21:53 |
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| ttx | when it was the allhands meeting it was easier | 21:53 |
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| EmilienM | :) | 21:54 |
| EmilienM | I think I can close it | 21:54 |
| EmilienM | thanks everyone and see you next week | 21:54 |
| ttx | I think you can | 21:54 |
| EmilienM | ttx: good night | 21:54 |
| EmilienM | #endmeeting | 21:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:54 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 18 21:54:27 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:54 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-08-18-21.01.html | 21:54 |
| Daviey | thanks EmilienM | 21:54 |
| ttx | Thanks EmilienM for driving it! | 21:54 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-08-18-21.01.txt | 21:54 |
| elmiko | thanks EmilienM | 21:54 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-08-18-21.01.log.html | 21:54 |
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| jokke_ | thanks | 21:56 |
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