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| nati_ueno | hi | 13:59 |
|---|---|---|
| jlibosva | hi | 13:59 |
| marios_ | o/ | 13:59 |
| lukasa | o/ | 13:59 |
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| ajo | hi :) | 13:59 |
| rkukura | hi | 13:59 |
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| mestery | hi folks! | 13:59 |
| blogan | \o/ | 13:59 |
| carl_baldwin | hi | 13:59 |
| amuller_ | hiya | 13:59 |
| mlavalle | hi | 13:59 |
| banix | hi | 13:59 |
| dougwig | o/ | 14:00 |
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| sballe | morning | 14:00 |
| obondarev | hi | 14:00 |
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| enikanorov_ | hi | 14:00 |
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| a2hill | o/ | 14:00 |
| evgenyf | hi | 14:00 |
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| glebo | 'lo | 14:00 |
| bobmel | Hi | 14:01 |
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| mestery | amotoki salv-orlando SumitNaiksatam: ping | 14:01 |
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| ChuckC | o/ | 14:02 |
| yamamoto | hi | 14:02 |
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| hareeshp | Hi | 14:02 |
| mestery | #startmeeting networking | 14:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 18 14:02:35 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:02 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:02 |
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| tomoe | hello | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking' | 14:02 |
| beagles | hi! | 14:02 |
| SumitNaiksatam | hi all! | 14:02 |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings Agenda | 14:02 |
| russellb | o/ | 14:02 |
| dkehn | hi | 14:02 |
| marun | hi | 14:03 |
| pc_m | hi | 14:03 |
| SridarK | Hi | 14:03 |
| mestery | Welcome back folks! I missed everyone in Paris, hope everyone had a great trip :) | 14:03 |
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| dougwig | we did, and congrats to you. | 14:03 |
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| mestery | Thanks dougwig. | 14:03 |
| mestery | Sounds like a lot of really great discussions happened. | 14:03 |
| nati_ueno | congrats! | 14:03 |
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| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Kilo_Release_Schedule | 14:04 |
| regXboi | +1 for the new mestery - hope all are doing well :) | 14:04 |
| mestery | I wanted to make sure people are aware of the Kilo release schedule. | 14:04 |
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| mestery | Thanks nati_ueno and regXboi. :) | 14:04 |
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| mestery | #info Kilo-1 date: 12-18-2014 | 14:04 |
| mestery | That's the first date of importance for folks. | 14:04 |
| amuller_ | mestery: Do we have the spec proposal freeze and spec approval freeze dates? | 14:04 |
| mestery | amuller_: I will have those by EOD today and send email to the list. | 14:05 |
| amuller_ | Great :) | 14:05 |
| amuller_ | thanks | 14:05 |
| mestery | And document them as well. | 14:05 |
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| mestery | Also, one more announcment | 14:05 |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/NeutronKiloSprint Mid-Cycle | 14:05 |
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| mestery | Please note if you're attending, send your contact information to Jun from Adobe so he can presetup your wifi access | 14:06 |
| mestery | Any other announcements for the team? | 14:06 |
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| mestery | #topic Bugs | 14:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:06 | |
| mestery | enikanorov_: Hi there! | 14:06 |
| enikanorov_ | hi | 14:07 |
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| mestery | enikanorov_: How current is the bug section of the meeting page? | 14:07 |
| enikanorov_ | mestery: it's not actual, i'll update | 14:08 |
| enikanorov_ | so the update for today | 14:08 |
| mestery | #action enikanorov_ to update the bugs section of the meeting page. | 14:08 |
| enikanorov_ | there is a bug in tempest or neutron that is being hit in the gate quite often | 14:08 |
| enikanorov_ | let me find the link | 14:09 |
| enikanorov_ | https://bugs.launchpad.net/tempest/+bug/1357055 | 14:09 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1357055 in tempest "Race to delete shared subnet in Tempest neutron full jobs" [Undecided,Confirmed] | 14:09 |
| mestery | enikanorov_: I recall discussing this bug with armax or markmcclain yesterday | 14:09 |
| mestery | Looks like this is assigned to salv-orlando at the moment. | 14:10 |
| enikanorov_ | yep | 14:10 |
| enikanorov_ | so I guess he's not here right now | 14:10 |
| mestery | Commment #29 indicates it's a Tempest bug as well. | 14:10 |
| mestery | Yes, salv-orlando must be predisposed at the moment. | 14:11 |
| enikanorov_ | another bug which has raised quite a bit of discussion is https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1382064 | 14:11 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1382064 in neutron "Failure to allocate tunnel id when creating networks concurrently" [High,In progress] | 14:11 |
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| enikanorov_ | this one was discovered during cuncurrent api tests (via rally) | 14:11 |
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| enikanorov_ | and revealed major flaw in id allocation logic | 14:11 |
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| mestery | enikanorov_: Yiikes! Are you looking into this one? | 14:12 |
| salv-orlando | mestery: that bug from what I gather is a tempest thing, but in the past two weeks I did not find time to look at it. | 14:12 |
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| mestery | salv-orlando: Thanks for the update there! | 14:12 |
| enikanorov_ | mestery: the fix is on review and we have quite long discussion there with amuller_ | 14:12 |
| enikanorov_ | actually the discussion spans beyong particular fix | 14:13 |
| amuller_ | enikanorov_: mestery: I think Eugene, Mike and myself showed our perspectives clearly and we probably need 3rd party feedback on the patch | 14:13 |
| mestery | Excellent! Thanks for tackling that one enikanorov_ and amuller_! | 14:13 |
| * markmcclain sneaks in late due to traffic | 14:13 | |
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| enikanorov_ | i hope we'll get a few minutes at the end of the meeting to describe underlying problem | 14:13 |
| mestery | amuller_: All the comments are in the review for this one then? | 14:13 |
| enikanorov_ | *to discuss | 14:13 |
| amuller_ | mestery: yeah | 14:13 |
| mestery | enikanorov_: We can do that right here if you want. | 14:13 |
| mestery | We can use 5-10 minutes now. | 14:13 |
| enikanorov_ | well, it's general question about getting rid of with_lockmode('update') (for the sake of galera/mysql) and related diffuculties | 14:14 |
| enikanorov_ | i think it's better to postopne in to the end of the meeting | 14:14 |
| mestery | enikanorov_: OK, that sounds fine. | 14:14 |
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| mestery | enikanorov_: I just wanted to also highlight the email you sent to the list last week on neutron bugs: | 14:15 |
| mestery | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-November/049975.html | 14:15 |
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| mestery | Have you had much luck in getting additional people to signup for triage, recreationg, etc? | 14:15 |
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| enikanorov_ | yes, I've got a couple of contacts | 14:15 |
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| mestery | enikanorov_: Perfect, glad to hear that! | 14:16 |
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| mestery | enikanorov_: Also, what are your thoughts on doing a bug-day in the coming weeks? I'm thinking it would be a good thing for the community to partake in and help clear the bug count a bit. | 14:16 |
| enikanorov_ | i'm planning to go over some open bugs that don't have updates for last couple of weeks, probably reassigning them to other people | 14:16 |
| enikanorov_ | enikanorov: yes, i think we need to have it as a regular event | 14:16 |
| mestery | #action mestery to work with enikanorov_ on a bug day in the coming 2 weeks. | 14:17 |
| mestery | enikanorov_: Agreed, we'll make it happen. | 14:17 |
| HenryG | How many bugs have assignees but they have effectively abandoned work on them? | 14:17 |
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| enikanorov_ | HenryG: i don't know | 14:17 |
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| mestery | OK, thanks for the updates on the bugs enikanorov_, and we'll get a bug day rolling soon. | 14:18 |
| enikanorov_ | mestery: cool | 14:18 |
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| * mestery doesn't see emagana around for a docs update ... | 14:19 | |
| mestery | #topic Docs | 14:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Docs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:19 | |
| mestery | #action emagana to update docs section of meeting page | 14:19 |
| mestery | #topic Technical Debt in the Agents | 14:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Technical Debt in the Agents (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:19 | |
| * mestery isn't sure who added this to the agenda ... | 14:19 | |
| marios_ | i did on behalf of carl_baldwin | 14:19 |
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| mestery | marios_ and carl_baldwin: Excellent! | 14:20 |
| mestery | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-neutron-agents-technical-debt | 14:20 |
| marios_ | it came up at the end of last week's l3... carl_baldwin ? | 14:20 |
| dkehn | maybe a good point to mention the possibility of DHCP sub-group | 14:20 |
| mestery | marios_: I'll let you and carl_baldwin lead us through this discussion then if you guys are ready. | 14:20 |
| marios_ | so i really haven't prepared anything. it was mostly for a discussion point about where/how to organise the work | 14:20 |
| carl_baldwin | marios_: Go for it. | 14:20 |
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| marios_ | so all the agents are discussed together in the etherpad. for example, the l2 fixes, should they be discussed under ml2 subgroup? | 14:21 |
| marios_ | or do we need a new group etc | 14:21 |
| markmcclain | please no more groups | 14:21 |
| marun | I can imagine it needing to be separate | 14:21 |
| marun | but I'm not suggesting how | 14:22 |
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| mestery | markmcclain: +1 | 14:22 |
| marun | ml2 -> integration point | 14:22 |
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| marun | agents -> control plane | 14:22 |
| salv-orlando | what would be the reason for a sub group? a regular weekly meeting? | 14:22 |
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| dkehn | salv-orlando: all those reason and focus | 14:23 |
| carl_baldwin | Wondering specifically about how to organize the L2 agent improvements discussed in the etherpad above. Attaching to some weekly meeting could help get things started. | 14:23 |
| marios_ | salv-orlando: i guess so, somewhere to discuss progress on that work | 14:23 |
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| dkehn | salv-orlando: & accountablility | 14:23 |
| regXboi | can we carve out some time at the end of this meeting to start with before spinning a new group? | 14:23 |
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| rkukura | we could include L2 agent discussion in the weekly ML2 agenda as needed | 14:24 |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: I would propose we coudl use part of the weekly Neutron meeting for this as well in the on-demand agenda, especially to bootstrap. | 14:24 |
| marios_ | +1 I think this was suggested by someone last week too, perhaps carl | 14:24 |
| carl_baldwin | mestery: rkukura: I’d be fine with either. | 14:25 |
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| russellb | if it's high priority core neutron work, seems to make perfect sense to discuss here | 14:25 |
| russellb | which it sounds like it is | 14:25 |
| mestery | russellb: ++ | 14:25 |
| russellb | it's really hard to follow all of these groups | 14:25 |
| markmcclain | russellb: agreed | 14:25 |
| dougwig | we need a new subgroup to discuss adding new groups. | 14:25 |
| marios_ | lol | 14:25 |
| sballe | dougwig: +1 | 14:25 |
| russellb | basically, i'm not even trying, because there's too many :) | 14:25 |
| salv-orlando | if you want to have a task force focused on repaying debt in any agent for this release cycle and set up a meeting for it I’m ok with it. I just don’t want to create permanent sub groups of subject matter experts | 14:25 |
| lukasa | dougwig: +1 | 14:25 |
| * dougwig ducks | 14:25 | |
| regXboi | oh please dear lord, no! | 14:26 |
| glebo | dougwig: +1 | 14:26 |
| mestery | Yes, we have too many subgroups without clear charters or missions. | 14:26 |
| * regXboi runs screaming from the chat room | 14:26 | |
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| mestery | So, lets discuss the agent things each week in this meeting. | 14:26 |
| salv-orlando | for instance in the last releae cycle we did this “db meetings” but at the end of the day it was just a bunch of folks (4 maybe 5) syncing up on a task of making migrations idempotent | 14:26 |
| mestery | Sound good to everyone? | 14:26 |
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| regXboi | mestery:+1 | 14:26 |
| salv-orlando | sounds good to me | 14:26 |
| lukasa | mestery: +1 | 14:26 |
| carl_baldwin | mestery: +1 | 14:27 |
| amotoki_ | sounds good to me | 14:27 |
| glebo | wfm | 14:27 |
| marios_ | yup | 14:27 |
| mestery | #info Agent refactoring discussion to happen in weekly neutron meeting going forward | 14:27 |
| salv-orlando | anything that needs more bandwidth… use #openstack-neutron or the mailing list | 14:27 |
| mestery | salv-orlando: +1 | 14:27 |
| markmcclain | salv-orlando: ++ | 14:27 |
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| mestery | As a team, we need to refocus to having these discussions in the team meeting, and use ML and IRC for higher bandwidth discussions as needed. | 14:27 |
| russellb | mestery: +1 | 14:27 |
| mestery | We can't scale with 10s of sub-teams meetings all the time. :) | 14:28 |
| amotoki_ | In addition, regarding subgroup meeting, all meetings listed at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings#OpenStack_Networking_.28Neutron.29 will be held in Kilo cycle? If not, please update. | 14:28 |
| mestery | amotoki_: I'm going to request sub-teams to have a clear charter by next week's neutron meeting, and if htey don't, they should disband. | 14:28 |
| mestery | We need to be having discussions in the broader meeting and not require people to attend all these other meeitngs. | 14:28 |
| mestery | It's not scalable. | 14:28 |
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| ajo | +1 | 14:29 |
| dougwig | mestery: +1 | 14:29 |
| dkehn | mestery: +1 | 14:29 |
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| amotoki_ | mestery: +1 | 14:29 |
| markmcclain | mestery: +1 | 14:29 |
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| mestery | I'll send email to the list post meeting on this, and add agenda item for next week. | 14:29 |
| regXboi | mestery: +1 | 14:29 |
| mestery | Anything else to discuss on the agent item today? | 14:30 |
| glebo | mestery: +1 | 14:30 |
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| mestery | #topic Services Split Update | 14:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Services Split Update (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:31 | |
| carl_baldwin | mestery: marios_: We need to identify who will be working on this. Maybe a mail to the ML could help bootstrap this? | 14:31 |
| mestery | #undo | 14:31 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x1bf9410> | 14:31 |
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| mestery | carl_baldwin: I think that would be ideal, yes. | 14:31 |
| marios_ | carl_baldwin: people have claimed stuff in the ehterpad but we can make sure they are still up for it | 14:31 |
| mestery | #action carl_baldwin to send email to list to get a quorum of folks for agent refactoring. | 14:31 |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: I know in the past banix has expressed interest here as well. | 14:31 |
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| carl_baldwin | Will do. I think we can move on. | 14:32 |
| mestery | Thanks carl_baldwin! | 14:32 |
| mestery | #topic Services Split Update | 14:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Services Split Update (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:32 | |
| mestery | So, the short story here is there is no update yet. :) | 14:32 |
| blogan | lol | 14:32 |
| mestery | markmcclain and I are working on this with the TC at the moment. | 14:32 |
| blogan | any idea when the TC will be able to have an official meeting about it to decide? | 14:32 |
| mestery | From a proposal perspective. markmcclain, did I miss anthing else? | 14:32 |
| markmcclain | blogan: likely next week | 14:33 |
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| mestery | #info TC to have services split discussion next week | 14:33 |
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| markmcclain | because of the async way we consider items… I'll propose for this week and for adding to next week's agenda | 14:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | mestery markmcclain: thanks, whats the proposal that is put in front of the TC? | 14:33 |
| russellb | markmcclain: should probably have a ML thread to introduce it first, with about week lead time before it hits TC agenda | 14:34 |
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| markmcclain | SumitNaiksatam: to divide the main neutron repo into two that are managed by the networking program | 14:34 |
| mestery | #action markmcclain and mestery to send email to ML prior to TC agenda addition | 14:34 |
| mestery | russellb: Good idea | 14:34 |
| markmcclain | russellb: right wanted to wait until folks were back to introduce so that the thread didn't get skipped | 14:34 |
| russellb | col | 14:34 |
| russellb | cool, too | 14:34 |
| mestery | lol :) | 14:35 |
| mestery | So, that's the update on services split. Look for the ML discussion soon. | 14:35 |
| blogan | anything we can do in the meantime? | 14:35 |
| salv-orlando | blogan: you can wait for a message on the ml ;) | 14:35 |
| mestery | lol | 14:35 |
| dougwig | lol | 14:35 |
| blogan | lol thanks salv | 14:35 |
| mestery | #topic Open Discussion | 14:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:36 | |
| * mestery notes we may end a bit early today. | 14:36 | |
| markmcclain | blogan: dougwig has been working on the proposed code organization item | 14:36 |
| mestery | enikanorov_: This is your slot! :) | 14:36 |
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| mestery | enikanorov_: For the previous discussion. | 14:36 |
| enikanorov_ | ok | 14:36 |
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| blogan | mestery: can we talk about the meetup as well after? | 14:36 |
| dkehn | DHCP direction, or god forbid I say sub-grou[ | 14:36 |
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| enikanorov_ | so here's the issue, we're trying to get rid of locking tables (with_lockmode) | 14:37 |
| * regXboi listens | 14:37 | |
| enikanorov_ | in some cases consistency can't be achieved without that, so retries need to be used to achieve the result | 14:37 |
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| markmcclain | dkehn: you have to file the form for the subgroup on subgroups :) | 14:38 |
| dkehn | markmcclain: thanks | 14:38 |
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| enikanorov_ | the problem is that such operations are performed under transactions which in mysql have 'repeatable read' isolation level | 14:38 |
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| enikanorov_ | and hence retry logic just don't work because the code fetches the same values over and over again | 14:38 |
| regXboi | enikanorov_ are the cases where consistency can't be achieved corners or are they in the main space? | 14:38 |
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| markmcclain | enikanorov: the API refactoring plus separation into tasks should remove much of the need for the locking we're doing now | 14:38 |
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| rkukura | shouldn’t the transaction be inside the retry loop? | 14:39 |
| enikanorov_ | rkukura: that seems to be an obvious solution, but that just a small method called by, say, create_network, that has one big transaction | 14:39 |
| enikanorov_ | markmcclain: can you explain about the tasks? | 14:40 |
| markmcclain | enikanorov_: it was a bit about what we talked about in the sessions in Paris | 14:40 |
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| salv-orlando | markmcclain: since that’s not happening tomorrow it still makes sense fixing in the existing code base | 14:40 |
| enikanorov_ | markmcclain: i mean how it helps | 14:40 |
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| enikanorov_ | salv-orlando: agree | 14:41 |
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| markmcclain | salv-orlando: yeah… not sure we'll be able to make a meaning lock_mode fix for Juno | 14:41 |
| salv-orlando | enikanorov_: what markmcclain is saying is that we’ll pretty much rewrite eveyrthing | 14:41 |
| enikanorov_ | salv-orlando: i like rewriting stuff :) but... | 14:41 |
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| salv-orlando | everything… even ourselves ;) | 14:41 |
| marios_ | lol | 14:41 |
| amuller_ | In the mean time we have https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1382064 (Concurrent network creations all try to use the same segmentation ID, and the retry loop just tries the same number 10 times and fails) | 14:41 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1382064 in neutron "Failure to allocate tunnel id when creating networks concurrently" [High,In progress] | 14:41 |
| enikanorov_ | you know, we're dealing with issues that appear in distributed environment | 14:41 |
| amuller_ | We need a short term solution to that bug | 14:42 |
| enikanorov_ | retry logic is a correct way to deal with those | 14:42 |
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| marun | can we special case things that need to retry like this to use a different isolation mode? | 14:42 |
| enikanorov_ | if we somehow serialize access - that would mean we create contention point | 14:42 |
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| enikanorov_ | marun: exactly. that is a proposed solution | 14:43 |
| marun | enikanorov_: are there any drawbacks to that approach? | 14:43 |
| enikanorov_ | marun: potentially, in 'update' operations, but anyway, postgress already uses 'read committed' isolation level that is fine for retry logic | 14:43 |
| amuller_ | marun: In my mind it destroys my ability to reason about the code base. If a subtransaction deep in the stack (Such in the patch proposed) sets a different transaction level, I have no way of knowing that unless I'm just familiar with the entire code base. | 14:44 |
| enikanorov_ | so for now the solution for mysql is to change tx isolation level from default to 'read committed' | 14:44 |
| amuller_ | I no longer know what transaction level each transaction uses | 14:44 |
| amuller_ | And I have to constantly check and think about what that means for every flow | 14:44 |
| enikanorov_ | amuller_: you don't know it anyway, because it is backend-dependent right now | 14:45 |
| amuller_ | each DB has a default | 14:45 |
| marun | enikanorov_: That would seem to be pretty dangerous if code has been written to assume 'consistent read' :/ | 14:45 |
| amuller_ | at least it's consistent | 14:45 |
| amuller_ | if different parts of the code base use different levels... I don't know, that seems insane to me to be honest | 14:45 |
| enikanorov_ | marun: correct | 14:45 |
| marun | or are we safe there? I mean, postgres uses read committed and the code is fine, right? | 14:45 |
| enikanorov_ | marun: good news is that 'create' operations are safe for that | 14:45 |
| dkehn | enikanorov_: I would leave the isolation where it is, becuase its the default for everyone, and look at the length the lock is there | 14:45 |
| enikanorov_ | marun: we don't have anough concurrent api testing to say that code is fine with postgres | 14:46 |
| enikanorov_ | *enough | 14:46 |
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| marun | enikanorov_: fair enough | 14:46 |
| enikanorov_ | so if any call chain issues the same query twice for the same object, that is a potential issue | 14:47 |
| yamamoto | either way it's better to use the same isolation level for mysql and postgres | 14:47 |
| marun | yamamoto: well, that implies a pretty significant change then. | 14:47 |
| enikanorov_ | yamamoto: i tend to agree. | 14:47 |
| amuller_ | I proposed an alternate on the patch | 14:47 |
| enikanorov_ | marun: agree as well | 14:47 |
| amuller_ | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/129288/4//COMMIT_MSG | 14:47 |
| carl_baldwin | Random will be fine as long as the available space is sparsely consumed. As soon as the space is not sparsely consumed then it will be terrible. Won't this be the case for VLAN ids? | 14:48 |
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| enikanorov_ | carl_baldwin: exactly | 14:48 |
| amuller_ | carl_baldwin: We can provide a different solution for tunneling and VLANs, since, they're different.. | 14:49 |
| emagana | emagana won the prize for being the one confusing the time for the networking meeting.. DLT!!!! I hate you!! | 14:49 |
| marun | What about writing tests that attempt to validate concurrency of the operations in question? | 14:49 |
| enikanorov_ | marun: well... wei use rally in our lab | 14:49 |
| marun | We can debate the merits of an approach in theory, but unless we're validating our assumptions the debate will have to continue into production environments. | 14:49 |
| enikanorov_ | *we | 14:49 |
| mestery | emagana: lol | 14:49 |
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| carl_baldwin | Won’t it also be the case if the configured available range of ids (regardless of type) is small? | 14:50 |
| ajo | emagana, not sure if you won ;), I was here 1 hour before ;D, and missed the last one | 14:50 |
| enikanorov_ | the issue was found with rally, and that's how i validated the fix | 14:50 |
| emagana | mestery: sorry.. and I thought I was early!! LOL | 14:50 |
| enikanorov_ | carl_baldwin: for tunnels there is not much sense to configure small ranges | 14:50 |
| marun | enikanorov_: Hmmm, so rally is sufficient testing then? | 14:50 |
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| marun | enikanorov_: Can we change the transaction isolation to 'read committed' for mysql and retest to see if issues appear? | 14:50 |
| enikanorov_ | marun: it's load/concurrency/performance testing framework for which a couple of api tests for neutron is written | 14:51 |
| marun | globally, I mean | 14:51 |
| marun | Or have you already done so? | 14:51 |
| ajo | enikanorov_but people tend to do, for some reason, so could be an issue, or we'd need to state clearly that they need to use broad tunnel id ranges | 14:51 |
| enikanorov_ | marun: that's what i did. it fixes the issue | 14:51 |
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| enikanorov_ | ah, globally | 14:51 |
| enikanorov_ | yeah, we can test that. | 14:51 |
| marun | enikanorov_: It is a small change with a potentially big impact. | 14:51 |
| marun | enikanorov_: But at least it has consistency on its side. | 14:52 |
| marun | Does anyone have any objection to attempting to move to the new isolation level? | 14:52 |
| marun | It could cause problems, but we're early in the cycle. | 14:52 |
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| enikanorov_ | and also, postgres is already 'read committed' | 14:52 |
| markmcclain | Has jaypipes looked at it? | 14:52 |
| marun | Also, has anyone consulted mike bayer on the issue? | 14:52 |
| rossella_s | marun: let's test that at least...the lock wait timeout bugs are hitting us anyway | 14:53 |
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| carl_baldwin | marun: I think it is worth some testing. | 14:53 |
| marun | rossella_s: agreed, testing is the first step. | 14:53 |
| * regXboi wonders if we have to back off and treat concurrent access like we would treat multi-master | 14:53 | |
| markmcclain | Jay and I talked about this class of problem before and he had some feedback | 14:53 |
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| carl_baldwin | enikanorov_: Yes, postgres is using ‘read committed’ but we’re not testing that as much. | 14:53 |
| enikanorov_ | carl_baldwin: true | 14:53 |
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| enikanorov_ | carl_baldwin: i just mean that at the level of confidence that gates give us, it was fine at times we tested neutron with postgres | 14:54 |
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| rossella_s | maybe it's worth writing to the ML so that other people can give their feedback? They might have tried it in other projects... | 14:54 |
| enikanorov_ | rossella_s: will do | 14:55 |
| ajo | rossella_s: +1 | 14:55 |
| mestery | rossella_s: That's a good idea actually | 14:55 |
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| ajo | trying "READ COMMITED" globally sounds like a good approach to me from the consistency point of view, ... | 14:55 |
| ajo | but it will be good to hear other's experiences on that. | 14:55 |
| carl_baldwin | enikanorov_: Fair enough. I just wanted to point out that it won’t necessarily be a slam dunk. | 14:56 |
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| mestery | enikanorov_: Are you going to send the mail to the list? | 14:56 |
| enikanorov_ | mestery: yes | 14:56 |
| glebo | enikanorov: ought we time bound the ML + responses time, and set a target date for decision? | 14:57 |
| mestery | #action enikanorov_ to send mail to ML around locking issues with bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1382064 | 14:57 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1382064 in neutron "Failure to allocate tunnel id when creating networks concurrently" [High,In progress] | 14:57 |
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| mestery | OK, 3 minutes left folks. | 14:57 |
| regXboi | I'd like to point out that a solution to that problem may also buy you multi-master for essentially free | 14:57 |
| mestery | Anything else quick this week? | 14:57 |
| glebo | enikanorov: decision specifically for if we do the test or not | 14:57 |
| marios_ | i have a quick question/clarification | 14:57 |
| marios_ | wrt the functional tests coverage for technical debt - we *are* talking about in-tree functional tests right (not tempest). I have starting poking at the dhcp_agent (non-existant in-tree functional tests afaics) testing and want to make sure I don't go off on a tangent | 14:57 |
| ajo | regXboi: +1 I was thinking of that, but at cost of higher query inter-locking... | 14:57 |
| SridarK | mastery: we could continue the planning for the adv services spinout meetup while the TC deliberation is happening. | 14:57 |
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| enikanorov_ | glebo: we will do such test, by sayin 'we' i mean, me and my colleauges | 14:58 |
| salv-orlando | I just want to throw this bombshell… I think the application should not make assumptions on the underlying database isolation mode. But don’t take me seriously I just want to stir up the discussion. | 14:58 |
| SridarK | mestery: #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/advanced-services-kilo-midcycle | 14:58 |
| mestery | salv-orlando: lol | 14:58 |
| amuller_ | marios_: in-tree, yes | 14:58 |
| regXboi | ajo: I think we can avoid the query inter-locking at the cost of "eventual consistency" :( | 14:58 |
| marios_ | amuller_: thx :) | 14:58 |
| salv-orlando | I want to make sure the meeting finishes at 15GMT | 14:58 |
| mestery | SridarK: That's ongoing yes, we'll get that sorted out, expect email soon | 14:58 |
| glebo | enikanorov: ah, cool. Thx. | 14:58 |
| enikanorov_ | salv-orlando: somewhat true, somewhat not ;) | 14:58 |
| SridarK | mestery: thanks | 14:58 |
| glebo | enikanorov: so we'll do in parallel then. Good to know. | 14:58 |
| amuller_ | marios_: Please add me as a reviewer as soon as you have something up :) It should be similar to the L3 agent functional testing I think? | 14:58 |
| mestery | OK, we're winding down now. | 14:59 |
| marios_ | amuller_: indeed and will do | 14:59 |
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| mestery | If you got an action item, please review post meeting. | 14:59 |
| glebo | mestery: action to enikanorov for doing the test in parallel and reporting back? | 14:59 |
| mestery | I'll walk through those next week at the meeting. | 14:59 |
| ajo | marios_, add me too ;) | 14:59 |
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| marios_ | ajo: ack | 14:59 |
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| blogan | mestery: lbaas feature branch reviews | 14:59 |
| mestery | We'll see you all next week! | 14:59 |
| mestery | #endmeeting | 14:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 18 14:59:47 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2014/networking.2014-11-18-14.02.html | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2014/networking.2014-11-18-14.02.txt | 14:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2014/networking.2014-11-18-14.02.log.html | 14:59 |
| nati_ueno | bye!! | 14:59 |
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| regXboi | oom | 14:59 |
| yamamoto | bye | 15:00 |
| marios_ | \o | 15:00 |
| amuller_ | tata | 15:00 |
| dougwig | bye | 15:00 |
| marun | ciao | 15:00 |
| ajo | :D | 15:00 |
| lukasa | \o bye all | 15:00 |
| markmcclain | bye | 15:00 |
| emagana | ciao... | 15:00 |
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| banix | bye | 15:00 |
| obondarev | bye | 15:00 |
| ajo | hasta la vista! ;) | 15:00 |
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| glebo | l8r | 15:00 |
| amotoki_ | bye | 15:00 |
| salv-orlando | adieuuuu | 15:00 |
| rkukura | bye | 15:00 |
| jaypipes | marun, markmcclain: reading back... | 15:00 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting gantt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 18 15:00:50 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:00 |
| n0ano | anyone here to talk about the scheduler? | 15:01 |
| edleafe | \o | 15:01 |
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| lxsli | o/ | 15:01 |
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| jgallard | hi! | 15:02 |
| vigneshvar | hi | 15:02 |
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| bauzas | \o | 15:02 |
| bauzas | (sorry, was late) | 15:02 |
| jaypipes | o/ | 15:02 |
| n0ano | just about to ping you two :-) | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | anyway, let's start | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | #topic code cleanup tasks | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "code cleanup tasks (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:02 | |
| bauzas | so, maybe we can take a look at the wiki page ? | 15:03 |
| n0ano | I hope everyone has studied the email threads and the wiki page at: | 15:03 |
| n0ano | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Gantt/kilo#Tasks | 15:03 |
| bauzas | +1 | 15:03 |
| lxsli | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Gantt/kilo#Tasks | 15:03 |
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| n0ano | I've tried to distill down what needs to be done at the wiki, the general question is did I miss anything or is something there that's not needed | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: lgtm | 15:04 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, the RT objects one needs updating - I'll do it | 15:04 |
| n0ano | PaulMurray, tnx | 15:04 |
| jaypipes | n0ano: there's refactoring of the RT unit tests ongoing, along with my work to make nova.virt.hardware use nova.objects framework. | 15:04 |
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| n0ano | jaypipes, should I add a couple of line items to the table about those? | 15:05 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: oh right | 15:05 |
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| jaypipes | n0ano: no worries, I can do that | 15:05 |
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| n0ano | jaypipes, cool, I want to tweak the table a little, I want to add a column about approval for the specs, that's pretty crucial | 15:06 |
| bauzas | so, about https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/detach-service-from-computenode | 15:06 |
| jaypipes | n0ano: k, will wait for you to change. | 15:06 |
| n0ano | jaypipes, np | 15:06 |
| bauzas | item #4 | 15:06 |
| n0ano | bauzas, go ahead | 15:06 |
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| bauzas | I've been told yesterday that data migrations are no longer accepted for Kilo | 15:07 |
| n0ano | before even K1? that seems a little harsh | 15:07 |
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| jaypipes | schema migrations are fine, just not data migrations I guess. | 15:08 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: exactly | 15:08 |
| bauzas | I meant *data* migration | 15:08 |
| bauzas | so adding a new col is ok | 15:08 |
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| bauzas | but now we have to use the objects backwards compatibility to provide data for it | 15:08 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: right. | 15:08 |
| bauzas | so I'll update the spec | 15:09 |
| jaypipes | k | 15:09 |
| jaypipes | and I will +1 it again :) | 15:09 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: let's get this one approved ASAP, so the sooner you push a fixed spec, the better :) | 15:09 |
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| jaypipes | bauzas: danpb already +2d it | 15:09 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: so that means that the fields won't be changed on upgrade and downgrade, but the compute_node object will do it by itself | 15:09 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: it will require some change in the code, but I don't expect so much things | 15:10 |
| bauzas | the bad thing is that I'm the first to test the new process so maybe some discussion has to be made :) | 15:10 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: why wouldn't you be able to change the fields on update and downgrade? | 15:11 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: yeah, but johnthetubaguy -1'd it for a good reason | 15:11 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: because now it's asked to not do that using dbmigrate tool | 15:11 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: instead, objects have to check the version and update by themselves | 15:11 |
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| bauzas | IIUC of course | 15:12 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: :( I think I need to know more specifics then... | 15:12 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: I suggest that we discuss about it offline | 15:12 |
| bauzas | with johnthetubaguy | 15:13 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, are you saying the same column would contain rows with different versions, that seems iffy | 15:13 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: nope, that's simple for us | 15:13 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, I would like to follow this - or at least find out what is done - maybe I should just read the patches | 15:13 |
| bauzas | n0ano: there is a new col | 15:13 |
| bauzas | called host | 15:13 |
| bauzas | ergh, a new 'field' | 15:13 |
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| johnthetubaguy | basically objects does data migrations, flavor stuff is the first example of that | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | thats the current plan at least | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | the details are… hairy at best | 15:14 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: thanks for clarifying | 15:14 |
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| PaulMurray | johnthetubaguy, all this is a nightmare for rebasing - especially if someone else is working in the same code | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | there will have to be a spec I recon, for the data migration pattern, | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | PaulMurray: the other stuff is already hell for that same reason | 15:14 |
| n0ano | and we're the first guinea pig - fun :-( | 15:14 |
| bauzas | indeed :) | 15:15 |
| PaulMurray | johnthetubaguy, I really want to make that kind of thing easier | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: yeah, thats the sucky bit | 15:15 |
| bauzas | I like to be a guinea pig :) | 15:15 |
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| johnthetubaguy | PaulMurray: yeah, ideas welcome, I think the version is now per object, rather than global, which helps a bit | 15:15 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, you said that out loud | 15:15 |
| * johnthetubaguy fills out medical testing application for bauzas | 15:15 | |
| bauzas | :) | 15:15 |
| PaulMurray | johnthetubaguy, yes, but if it is referred to by another object that one has to change too | 15:16 |
| PaulMurray | johnthetubaguy, etc. | 15:16 |
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| johnthetubaguy | PaulMurray: right, this is the data version, not the object version, but yeah | 15:16 |
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| johnthetubaguy | we might make them the same thing, but we need to hash all that out yet | 15:16 |
| n0ano | johnthetubaguy, is there a BP about all this, I need to sit back and think on it. | 15:16 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: yeah, the nested object thing is quite a pain to maintain, but I think the idea is pretty good | 15:16 |
| * PaulMurray end of side-track | 15:17 | |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: johnthetubaguy: maybe we should free up what's possible with nested objects | 15:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: not quite, is the simple answer, I am owning that priority thing, so I need to pull my finger out an make something more formal happen | 15:17 |
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| n0ano | johnthetubaguy, fer sure, this looks hard and it would be nice to have something concrete to read on it | 15:17 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: I would apprieciate if you could review my patch series when it will be updated :) | 15:17 |
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| johnthetubaguy | right now, I would plan on doing expand and not contract, and leave the contract for the upgrade folks to fix | 15:18 |
| lxsli | did someone say they'd create a hacking check to alert if a dependent object version was updated without the depending object version being updated? | 15:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | and follow the pattern dansmith is doing for flavor for the expand bit | 15:18 |
| PaulMurray | lxsli, there is a test for that | 15:18 |
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| lxsli | Ah great, ty | 15:19 |
| PaulMurray | lxsli, but any new objects have to be added to the test | 15:19 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: well, I was not expecting data migrations to the flavor BP | 15:19 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: because it's purely additive nope ? | 15:19 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: oh | 15:19 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: nope, my bad, metadata has to be populated to the new table | 15:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: its a move, it doesn't really need the contract part, becuase we are not killing system metadata (yet) | 15:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | right | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | anyways, sorry, end of side track, hopefully! | 15:20 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: I then exactly have the same pattern | 15:20 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: thanks | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: yeah, I would copy it, add the thing, and use it, leave the old | 15:20 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: that's barely already done | 15:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | perfect | 15:21 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: except the thing that I was updating the existing fields | 15:21 |
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| bauzas | k, I think we're done with this bp | 15:22 |
| bauzas | I also have another one to mention | 15:22 |
| n0ano | well, seems like we know what we're doing on this one | 15:22 |
| n0ano | bauzas, go ahead | 15:22 |
| bauzas | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/request-spec-object | 15:22 |
| bauzas | ie. https://review.openstack.org/#/c/127610/ | 15:22 |
| bauzas | at the moment, it's a pure mess | 15:23 |
| bauzas | so, the basic plan is to objectify request_spec | 15:23 |
| bauzas | but there is also filter_properties dict | 15:23 |
| bauzas | so I discussed with jaypipes about that, but I would like to get the consensus here too | 15:23 |
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| bauzas | (because I'll still implementing this next week, albeit for K2) | 15:24 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, can you get consensus with one other person :) | 15:24 |
| bauzas | well, from my past experience, I really like to get feedback before doing anything | 15:24 |
| bauzas | because this scheduler.client thing merged with +70 iterations | 15:25 |
| bauzas | and I don't talk about ERT ;) | 15:25 |
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| PaulMurray | +70 is a record by me | 15:25 |
| n0ano | anyway, so what specifically do you need concensus on? | 15:25 |
| bauzas | so | 15:25 |
| bauzas | select_destinations() is admitting 2 args | 15:26 |
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| bauzas | filter_properties and request_spec | 15:26 |
| bauzas | later in the scheduler, request_spec is nested into filter_properties | 15:26 |
| bauzas | so the filters access the spec by doing filter_prop['req_spec'] | 15:26 |
| bauzas | my question is | 15:27 |
| bauzas | should we consider having 2 objects for that select_dest() interfaces or only one, and so which one ? | 15:27 |
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| bauzas | I was about saying RequestSpec being the object and filter_properties a field of it | 15:27 |
| bauzas | but in that case, it's just a non-sense to invert that for the filters | 15:28 |
| n0ano | if one param it should be the request (which contains the filter prop) but I don't see a problem with 2 parameters | 15:28 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, I agree on that way around | 15:28 |
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| bauzas | PaulMurray: which is ? | 15:28 |
| edleafe | It seems that logically the filter_properties is part of the request | 15:28 |
| bauzas | edleafe: agreed | 15:28 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: so we would need to invert the logic in the scheduler too | 15:28 |
| bauzas | that's a massive and invasive change | 15:29 |
| edleafe | bauzas: yep | 15:29 |
| lxsli | +1 to RequestSpec being the object and filter_properties a field of it | 15:29 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, what you said: filter props inside request | 15:29 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, but I wonder if it is early to do that? | 15:29 |
| n0ano | bauzas, it's not inverting the logic, it's changing the data access, is that really such a big change | 15:29 |
| bauzas | n0ano: it is | 15:29 |
| bauzas | n0ano: trust me :) | 15:29 |
| bauzas | n0ano: because we need to change all the filters, the tests etc. | 15:30 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, could remove request spec from filter props but keep both as first step | 15:30 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: I like having baby steps here | 15:30 |
| n0ano | well, the target is K2, if we start now we should be able to make it, I can get someone else to help on this | 15:30 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, then make object | 15:30 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, for request | 15:30 |
| edleafe | bauzas: could we change it in steps: first outside the scheduler, and just have one place inside the scheduler that inverts it to match current design? | 15:30 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I was thinking about it | 15:31 |
| n0ano | edleafe, I like that idea | 15:31 |
| vigneshvar | edleafe: good idea | 15:31 |
| bauzas | edleafe: it's quickier to only change the RPC interface of the scheudler | 15:31 |
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| edleafe | bauzas: and then later clean up the references inside the scheduler | 15:31 |
| bauzas | and then keep the actual logic within the scheduler | 15:31 |
| bauzas | so we only have one place to change | 15:32 |
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| bauzas | k, agreed ? | 15:32 |
| n0ano | remember, the objective for the Kilo release is to clean up interfaces, not necessarily internal implementations | 15:32 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: ? | 15:32 |
| lxsli | +1 | 15:32 |
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| edleafe | n0ano: precisely | 15:32 |
| n0ano | bauzas, +1 | 15:32 |
| bauzas | n0ano: I know, I know | 15:32 |
| bauzas | sounds like we lost jaypipes :) | 15:32 |
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| n0ano | might want to email/irc him directly and make sure he's on board also | 15:33 |
| bauzas | k, will go this way and will notify jaypipes | 15:33 |
| bauzas | anyway, it was the first step | 15:33 |
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| n0ano | cool, moving on, one other item I'd like to discuss is like 3 of the table | 15:34 |
| bauzas | the second step was to change anything in the scheduler, we can defer it or ask someone else to handle it for K3 | 15:34 |
| bauzas | edleafe: interested ? | 15:34 |
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| n0ano | PaulMurray, that's your's, since it's targed for K1 do you have an update on where we stand with it. | 15:34 |
| edleafe | bauzas: sure, but that will come later, no? | 15:34 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, sorry got distracted | 15:35 |
| n0ano | PaulMurray, NP | 15:35 |
| bauzas | edleafe: yep, but we can do a temptative attempt for K3 nope ? | 15:35 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, we could take it on if you like | 15:35 |
| bauzas | edleafe: if you have time of course | 15:35 |
| edleafe | bauzas: sure, let's tentatively plan on that | 15:35 |
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| n0ano | PaulMurray, not sure what you meant | 15:36 |
| bauzas | edleafe: k, will put you as a reviewer of my first drafts then | 15:36 |
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| PaulMurray | n0ano, you want an update on rt objects | 15:36 |
| PaulMurray | yes? | 15:36 |
| n0ano | yes if you can | 15:36 |
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| PaulMurray | lxsli, has started to work on the migrations patch and working with jay on redoing the tests for resource tracker | 15:37 |
| PaulMurray | there is that one patch up and in progress | 15:37 |
| PaulMurray | we will both start getting more on the way | 15:37 |
| PaulMurray | that's about it for now | 15:37 |
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| n0ano | PaulMurray, cool, good to hear, send me links to the patches and I'll update the table | 15:38 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, already in the table - refresh | 15:38 |
| n0ano | PaulMurray, you're too quick, tnx | 15:38 |
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| * PaulMurray has to pay attention to something else for now... sorry | 15:39 | |
| n0ano | we've talked about the K1 items (except Berrange's ones, I'll deal with those later). | 15:39 |
| n0ano | I think that covers the immediate concerns how about I go to opens for now | 15:39 |
| n0ano | #topic opens | 15:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:39 | |
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| n0ano | Anything? | 15:40 |
| vigneshvar | would there be anyhelp i would like to | 15:40 |
| vigneshvar | typo would there be any help required. i would like to | 15:40 |
| n0ano | vigneshvar, tnx, one help would be to review things, that is always needed | 15:41 |
| bauzas | vigneshvar: reviewing is the first bit to do | 15:41 |
| vigneshvar | sure will | 15:41 |
| n0ano | from there we can see what else makes sense | 15:41 |
| n0ano | I don't want to keep everyone so, unless there are any last minute opens | 15:42 |
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| n0ano | I will say thanks and talk to you all again next week (if not earlier) | 15:42 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:42 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:42 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 18 15:42:56 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:42 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-11-18-15.00.html | 15:43 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-11-18-15.00.txt | 15:43 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-11-18-15.00.log.html | 15:43 |
| vigneshvar | see you all next week :) | 15:43 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov_: hi | 17:00 |
| boris-42 | andreykurilin_: hi | 17:00 |
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| msdubov_ | boris-42 hi | 17:00 |
| boris-42 | pboros: hi | 17:00 |
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| amaretskiy | boris-42 hi | 17:01 |
| pboros | hi boris-42 | 17:01 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: hi | 17:01 |
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| zhiyan | hi boris-42 | 17:01 |
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| boris-42 | zhiyan: hi | 17:02 |
| boris-42 | #startmeeting Rally | 17:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 18 17:02:25 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:02 |
| boris-42 | #topic OpenStack summit | 17:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack summit (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:02 | |
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| boris-42 | Okay OpenStack summit was quite productive as usually | 17:03 |
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| boris-42 | and I would like just to share with some interesting documents | 17:03 |
| boris-42 | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-rally-osprofiler | 17:03 |
| boris-42 | result of Rally design session | 17:03 |
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| boris-42 | #link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77B9Un4xtK0 (one talk) | 17:04 |
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| boris-42 | #link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uOnZKu7OSY (another talk) | 17:05 |
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| boris-42 | #link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNKKvLFhkpE (and one more time a bit about rally) | 17:05 |
| boris-42 | As well there were nonofficial discussions | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | about benchmarking Network with Rally | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | and Rally as a Service | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | we decide to do both=) | 17:06 |
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| boris-42 | Any questions?) | 17:07 |
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| boris-42 | (so I'll start mailing list threads about this) | 17:07 |
| zhiyan | yes | 17:07 |
| boris-42 | zhiyan: ?) | 17:07 |
| andreykurilin_ | hi all:) | 17:07 |
| zhiyan | for osprofiler integration, i would like to take trove and zaqar | 17:07 |
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| boris-42 | zhiyan: okay | 17:08 |
| zhiyan | actually trove ones are under review already | 17:08 |
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| boris-42 | zhiyan: let's change topic | 17:08 |
| boris-42 | #topic OSprofiler integration | 17:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OSprofiler integration (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:08 | |
| boris-42 | zhiyan: so could you share links on reviews? | 17:08 |
| zhiyan | another one is about adding a new mongodb based notifier | 17:09 |
| zhiyan | yes, 2 secs pls | 17:09 |
| zhiyan | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116653/ | 17:09 |
| zhiyan | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116654/ | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116653/ | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116654/ | 17:10 |
| zhiyan | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116671/ | 17:10 |
| zhiyan | oops, thanks | 17:10 |
| boris-42 | ya | 17:10 |
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| boris-42 | So I will try to find time to review those patches | 17:10 |
| boris-42 | zhiyan: about mongodb backend we will need to setup dsvm functional job | 17:10 |
| zhiyan | btw, i have talked them with trove team closely, them all agreed to land osprofiler stuff asap in k | 17:11 |
| boris-42 | zhiyan: for osprofiler before doing it.. | 17:11 |
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| boris-42 | zhiyan: nice | 17:11 |
| boris-42 | zhiyan: btw what about using trove for backend?) | 17:11 |
| zhiyan | you are late.. lol | 17:11 |
| boris-42 | zhiyan: where where?) | 17:11 |
| zhiyan | i'm making it locally, just verifiying it before your ping :) | 17:12 |
| zhiyan | ok, i see your idea | 17:12 |
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| zhiyan | i mean dsvm one | 17:12 |
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| boris-42 | zhiyan: I am late with what?) | 17:12 |
| boris-42 | zhiyan: adding job? | 17:13 |
| zhiyan | but probably i need to know more details | 17:13 |
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| zhiyan | joke, because i already started doing it | 17:13 |
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| boris-42 | zhiyan: ah okay, so actually before we land your work we need to have functional testing | 17:14 |
| boris-42 | zhiyan: cause it's already merged to heat, cinder, glance and I don't won't to break whole world= | 17:14 |
| zhiyan | make sense | 17:14 |
| boris-42 | zhiyan: okay I'll look at your patches when you publish them=) | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | so let's move to next topic=) | 17:15 |
| zhiyan | thanks! | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | #topic Generic cleanup | 17:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Generic cleanup (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:15 | |
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| boris-42 | Okay we finally finished refactoring of generic cleanup mechanism | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | so now it's resource oriented and it's really simple to extend by plugins | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | all plugins are here https://github.com/stackforge/rally/blob/master/rally/benchmark/context/cleanup/resources.py | 17:16 |
| boris-42 | so it's just about making subclasses and overriding probably some functions.. | 17:16 |
| boris-42 | This new cleanup engine is much safer and it has repeats and speed limiations and better logging of non deleted resources | 17:16 |
| boris-42 | so one more nice improvments | 17:17 |
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| boris-42 | Any questions?) | 17:17 |
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| boris-42 | okay seem no questions lol | 17:18 |
| boris-42 | #topic Next steps for generic cleanup | 17:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Next steps for generic cleanup (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:18 | |
| boris-42 | So there is only one left step, to make disaster cleanup, when another instance of Rally can clean up everthing in case of failure | 17:18 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov is going to work on this | 17:19 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov_: aorund? | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | okay seems like he is not around=) | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | let's move to next topic | 17:20 |
| zhiyan | lol | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | zhiyan: ya=) | 17:20 |
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| boris-42 | #topic New better Rally reports and future steps | 17:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New better Rally reports and future steps (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:20 | |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: could you share with updates | 17:20 |
| amaretskiy | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/131844/ | 17:20 |
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| amaretskiy | here are a lot of improvements | 17:21 |
| amaretskiy | + bugfix | 17:21 |
| amaretskiy | SLA, Failues, Scenario output | 17:21 |
| amaretskiy | etc... | 17:21 |
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| amaretskiy | http://logs.openstack.org/44/131844/18/check/gate-rally-dsvm-rally/9872f9c/ | 17:22 |
| amaretskiy | http://logs.openstack.org/44/131844/18/check/gate-rally-dsvm-rally/9872f9c/rally-plot/results.html.gz#/VMTasks.boot_runcommand_delete | 17:22 |
| amaretskiy | http://logs.openstack.org/44/131844/18/check/gate-rally-dsvm-rally/9872f9c/rally-plot/results.html.gz#/Dummy.dummy_exception_probability#failures | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: --verbose plese tell us what are you doing | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | lol | 17:22 |
| amaretskiy | there are links above | 17:23 |
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| amaretskiy | take a look at tabs | 17:23 |
| amaretskiy | Failures - we see there an exceptions | 17:23 |
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| amaretskiy | that happened during the scenario run | 17:23 |
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| amaretskiy | another Tab - Output | 17:23 |
| amaretskiy | this is where we see scenario output (if any) | 17:24 |
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| amaretskiy | Also there is a SLA data at the top of Overview tab | 17:24 |
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| amaretskiy | there are also another improvements, like re-styling of page http://logs.openstack.org/44/131844/18/check/gate-rally-dsvm-rally/9872f9c/ | 17:25 |
| amaretskiy | That is what is going to be merged soon (I hope :) ) | 17:25 |
| amaretskiy | And there ar esome plans for next patch | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: so what about future stuff that you are going to do?) | 17:25 |
| amaretskiy | I'm going to introduce "overview page" | 17:26 |
| amaretskiy | where we can observe all scenarion within the benchmark in condensed view | 17:26 |
| amaretskiy | so there will be more easy to compare the results | 17:26 |
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| boris-42 | amaretskiy: nice | 17:27 |
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| amaretskiy | and I'm going to aggregare Failures - do not repeat similar | 17:27 |
| amaretskiy | just show differebt failures and their count | 17:28 |
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| amaretskiy | + fix browser back-forward buttons behavoir | 17:28 |
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| amaretskiy | now there is no effect - that is an issue | 17:28 |
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| amaretskiy | boris-42, that's all from my side :) | 17:30 |
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| boris-42 | amaretskiy: great work on reports | 17:31 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: now our bosses are happy=) | 17:31 |
| amaretskiy | :) | 17:31 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: hi hi | 17:31 |
| arcimboldo | hi all | 17:31 |
| arcimboldo | happy to join you | 17:31 |
| amaretskiy | arcimboldo hi | 17:32 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: so we have here some kind of weekly meeting | 17:32 |
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| msdubov_ | Sorry seems like I've had some connection issues | 17:32 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: where we are trying to share updates and dicuss different stuff | 17:32 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Dropping root requirements for rally setup.py | 17:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Dropping root requirements for rally setup.py (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:33 | |
| arcimboldo | ok I think I can start | 17:33 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: so your idea is to use better locations for files * | 17:33 |
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| arcimboldo | yes, right now, there are two issues: | 17:33 |
| arcimboldo | 1) the install script fails if you are not root | 17:33 |
| arcimboldo | 2) setup.cfg tries to install the completion file in /etc/bash_completion.d | 17:33 |
| arcimboldo | however, rally does not need to run as root, so I would suggest the following: | 17:34 |
| arcimboldo | 1) replace /etc/bash_completion with etc/bash_completion in setup.cfg. | 17:34 |
| arcimboldo | this will install in either VIRTUALENV_PATH/etc/bash_completion, if you are running inside a virtualenv, or in /usr/local/etc/bash_completion otherwise | 17:34 |
| arcimboldo | 2) the install script will check if you are root or not, and if you are installing in a virtualenv | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | hm maybe ~/etc/bash_completion ? | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | otherwise it may produce some issues? | 17:35 |
| arcimboldo | it's not standard | 17:35 |
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| boris-42 | ah | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | aahhh I see | 17:35 |
| arcimboldo | if you are running as root, _and_ not installing in a virtualenv, it makes sense to copy the file in /etc/bash_completion | 17:35 |
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| arcimboldo | this could be done by teh script | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: yep | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: one more question, what about rally.conf | 17:36 |
| arcimboldo | if you are running as a user, a line can be added to the .bashrc | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: ^ | 17:36 |
| arcimboldo | well, rally.conf is not automatically copied in /etc/ as far as I understand, right? | 17:36 |
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| arcimboldo | it's copied by the script | 17:37 |
| amaretskiy | rally.conf can be installed into user $HOME dir. I think | 17:37 |
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| arcimboldo | so again, if the script is run as normal user can be copied in ~/.rally/rally.conf | 17:37 |
| arcimboldo | (which is where rally is looking for the configuration file) | 17:37 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: okay I think this totally makes sense | 17:38 |
| amaretskiy | maybe it is reasonable to store rally.conf in virtualenv root dir? | 17:38 |
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| rediskin | imo nothing to discuss here. it is enough to file a bug, and assign it to amaretskiy or me | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: good point=) | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | rediskin: arcimboldo is going to try to do it=) | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: are you?) | 17:38 |
| arcimboldo | amaretskiy, well, data files are usually installed in the virtualenv, but configuration files arent, as far as I know | 17:38 |
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| arcimboldo | boris-42, yes I can do it | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: great so you can actually file a bug it's quite simple to do | 17:39 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: https://bugs.launchpad.net/rally | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: and then try to fix it | 17:39 |
| arcimboldo | ok | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: as far as I remember I shared with you HowTo? | 17:40 |
| arcimboldo | yes | 17:40 |
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| arcimboldo | reading it it's in my todo list :) | 17:40 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: first time it's a bit painfull=) | 17:40 |
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| oanufriev | https://github.com/openstack/oslo.config/blob/master/oslo/config/cfg.py#L476 | 17:40 |
| oanufriev | olso.config looks for configs not only at /etc | 17:41 |
| boris-42 | oanufriev: yep | 17:42 |
| arcimboldo | oanufriev, I've already installed rally as standard user, and put my configuration in ~/.rally/rally.conf, so it works already | 17:42 |
| arcimboldo | the only issue is with the installation | 17:42 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: so okay I think we discussed this well= | 17:43 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: btw did you run sucessfully against Folsom?) | 17:43 |
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| arcimboldo | boris-42, yes! | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: WTF | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | =) | 17:44 |
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| arcimboldo | I've put a try/execpt around call that was raising an exception | 17:44 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: http://m.memegen.com/6vu5mf.jpg =) | 17:44 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: I think we should do that in upstream | 17:44 |
| arcimboldo | inside _remove_associated_networks, around the to utils.check_service_status | 17:45 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: yep | 17:45 |
| arcimboldo | but I only tested creation of virtual machines | 17:45 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: another good patch to do | 17:45 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: at least something works! | 17:45 |
| arcimboldo | I don't know what else could fail | 17:45 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: but at least something works that is great=) | 17:45 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: so it makes sense to put try/except there | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: one more patch for u=) | 17:46 |
| arcimboldo | but the try/except should probably stay in benchmarks.utils, inside function check_service_status | 17:46 |
| arcimboldo | if anything throws an exception, it should returns false. | 17:46 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: not sure about that, cause it can hide evil bugs | 17:47 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: maybe just put in user context on removing networks.. | 17:47 |
| arcimboldo | what about logging the exception raised? | 17:48 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: ya something like that | 17:48 |
| arcimboldo | raising an exception there is quite nasty, because you cannot cleanup | 17:48 |
| arcimboldo | I had to delete the tenant by hand | 17:48 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: hm | 17:49 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: that shouldn't happend | 17:49 |
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| arcimboldo | so either you run it *before* creating anything, or you try to continue and then decide if perform the tests or just exit | 17:49 |
| arcimboldo | (after proper cleanup) | 17:49 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: ah yep | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: https://github.com/stackforge/rally/blob/master/rally/benchmark/context/users.py#L199 | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: msdubov_ ^ you forgot to put there try/excpet | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: so the idea is to log failures * | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: or at least warning there and put there try/except | 17:50 |
| arcimboldo | It seems to me that this failure is not critical, since you can proceed even if you don't get the list of the services. | 17:51 |
| arcimboldo | so you should continue | 17:51 |
| arcimboldo | at least, in this very specific case: Folsom with nova-network | 17:51 |
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| boris-42 | arcimboldo: so this code _remove_associated stuff is realted only to nova-network | 17:51 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42 As far as I remember it wasn't there before this patch? I tried not to change anything related to this | 17:51 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: and shouldn't be run agiant nova + neutron | 17:52 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: hm you were last person who touched that piece of code | 17:52 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: so=) | 17:52 |
| msdubov_ | https://github.com/stackforge/rally/blob/9089ea4e56a8426538303a7c4abaa4884576a90d/rally/benchmark/context/users.py that's the previos version | 17:53 |
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| msdubov_ | https://github.com/stackforge/rally/blob/9089ea4e56a8426538303a7c4abaa4884576a90d/rally/benchmark/context/users.py#L173 | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: doesn't matter =) | 17:53 |
| msdubov_ | There is try..except in the look | 17:53 |
| msdubov_ | *loop | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: it doesn't delete anything | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: if it raises exception | 17:53 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42 hm it just logs a warning, doesn't it? | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | arcimboldo: so as you found that bug, could you add some try/excpet good patch for beggign | 17:54 |
| msdubov_ | https://github.com/stackforge/rally/blob/master/rally/benchmark/context/users.py#L130 | 17:54 |
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| msdubov_ | boris-42 Exception is in the nova client initialization? | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: https://github.com/stackforge/rally/blob/master/rally/benchmark/context/users.py#L120 and what if this raises exception | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: ^ that line | 17:55 |
| msdubov_ | boris-42 Okay | 17:55 |
| boris-42 | Okay so meeting is quite close to end | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | #topic Free discussion | 17:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Free discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:56 | |
| boris-42 | any questions? ideas? proposals?) | 17:56 |
| msdubov_ | Well since I missed some part of the meeting, I don't know whether you discussed rally info | 17:56 |
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| msdubov_ | There is going to be an update: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/134666/ | 17:56 |
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| msdubov_ | It introduces some explanatory texts about main entities in Rally | 17:57 |
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| msdubov_ | and improves the overall user experience with this command | 17:57 |
| msdubov_ | Just to share | 17:57 |
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| msdubov_ | As well as I'm hoping to finish soon covering Rally with docstrings, so that "rally info find ..." will return info for any query | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | msdubov_: nice | 17:58 |
| boris-42 | okay we have to end meeting | 17:58 |
| boris-42 | #endmeeting | 17:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 18 17:58:29 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-11-18-17.02.html | 17:58 |
| arcimboldo | sorry I was afk, boris-42 do I need to open a bug report for the folsom/compatibility issue too? (I guess so) | 17:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-11-18-17.02.txt | 17:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-11-18-17.02.log.html | 17:58 |
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| boris-42 | Keystone guys HI! | 17:58 |
| boris-42 | =) | 17:58 |
| morganfainberg | boris-42 hiya | 17:58 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, ayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow, vdreamarkitex, raildo, rodrigods, amakarov, ajayaa, hogepodge, breton, lhcheng, nonameentername https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 17:59 |
| dstanek | o/ | 17:59 |
| rharwood | o/ | 17:59 |
| morganfainberg | that list is getting mighty long | 17:59 |
| rodrigods | \o | 17:59 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 17:59 |
| topol | oh its change of time again? | 17:59 |
| rharwood | \o the more the merrier or something, right? | 17:59 |
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| stevemar | o/ | 17:59 |
| morganfainberg | topol, happend while we were in Paris | 17:59 |
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| raildo | o/ | 18:00 |
| dolphm | topol: we're just here for the daylight savings party | 18:00 |
| marekd | \o/ | 18:00 |
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| boris-42 | morganfainberg: btw small offtopic | 18:00 |
| ayoung | Lunch today is the "Aloha Burger" and all I can say is "That is a tasty burger!" | 18:00 |
| Ioram7 | o/ | 18:00 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 18:00 |
| bknudson | daylight savings ended | 18:00 |
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| boris-42 | morganfainberg: about osprofiler spec https://review.openstack.org/#/c/134839/ | 18:01 |
| henrynash | hi | 18:01 |
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| htruta | o/ | 18:01 |
| boris-42 | ayoung: hi there=) | 18:01 |
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| morganfainberg | ok | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | well | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | missing some folks (betcha they didn't remember DST) | 18:01 |
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| morganfainberg | #startmeeting Keystone | 18:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 18 18:02:07 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is morganfainberg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:02 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:02 |
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| lbragstad | I was guilty of that last year... | 18:02 |
| ayoung | poor jamielennox probably will get an alarm clock wake up in 1 hour | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | Welcome back! Hope people had a good summit and a nice week since the summit | 18:02 |
| lbragstad | I feel accomplished that I remember | 18:02 |
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| marekd | dolphm reminded of that yesterday | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Stable Maintenance Liaison | 18:03 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Stable Maintenance Liaison (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:03 | |
| morganfainberg | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons#Stable_Branch | 18:03 |
| bknudson | I'd be willing to sign up for this since we kind of need it | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | While I can do this, I would prefer to have someone else to also rely on. | 18:03 |
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| ayoung | #startvote Nominate bknudson | 18:03 |
| openstack | Only the meeting chair may start a vote. | 18:03 |
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| dolphm | i'm on board as well | 18:03 |
| lbragstad | bknudson: is the liaison of liaisons | 18:04 |
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| bknudson | dolphm's got 2 already | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | haha | 18:04 |
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| dolphm | #winning | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | i'll let you guys figure out which one will do it. | 18:04 |
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| * ayoung winning by not having to be stable liason | 18:04 | |
| morganfainberg | #action dolphm or bknudson as stable liason. They'll battle it out - mad max style to see who gets it. | 18:04 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: fisticuffs in #openstack-keystone later? | 18:05 |
| ayoung | "Two man enter, one man get extra work!" | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | just update the wiki and let me know who it ends up being. | 18:05 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:06 |
| bknudson | dolphm: you can take it. I'm busy enough. | 18:06 |
| dolphm | bknudson: lol alrighty | 18:06 |
| bknudson | I'll try to do more reviews in stable | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Mapping engine - do we need some enhancements? | 18:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mapping engine - do we need some enhancements? (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:06 | |
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| morganfainberg | marekd o/ | 18:06 |
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| marekd | hello | 18:06 |
| bknudson | plus I can never figure out the test failures. | 18:06 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg, I think we need, at least the ability to split the REMOTE_USER value into userid and domain | 18:06 |
| dolphm | bknudson: that's the hard part | 18:06 |
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| * morganfainberg needs to also do more stable reviews. | 18:06 | |
| ayoung | jamielennox, good morning! | 18:07 |
| marekd | sorry | 18:07 |
| marekd | emergency | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | no worries | 18:07 |
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| jamielennox | ayoung: mmm | 18:07 |
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| stevemar | i think marekd is running away? | 18:07 |
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| morganfainberg | i can answer the question - we do need enhancements. | 18:07 |
| marekd | so, during the summit i heard some plans and opinions about | 18:07 |
| marekd | mapping engine | 18:07 |
| marekd | stevemar: i am not running away | 18:07 |
| bknudson | here comes that singularity | 18:07 |
| marekd | e.g. https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting there was a thread here | 18:08 |
| marekd | i remember nkinder was mentioning something about dynamic group creation | 18:08 |
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| rodrigods | marekd, ++ | 18:08 |
| marekd | i see everybody have some plans and opinions and i'd like to gather them and try to work something out. | 18:08 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd, more specifically group-passthrough, so it was possible to just pass group info across not need a keystone group every time | 18:08 |
| bknudson | etherpad? | 18:08 |
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| ayoung | ++ | 18:08 |
| ayoung | that too | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | etherpad would be good. | 18:09 |
| marekd | <wip> | 18:09 |
| marekd | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mapping-engine-enhancements | 18:09 |
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| morganfainberg | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mapping-engine-enhancements | 18:09 |
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| marekd | morganfainberg: thanks. | 18:10 |
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| rodrigods | we want to help with that as well | 18:10 |
| dstanek | I just worry about going too far here. like the dev thread suggested | 18:10 |
| rodrigods | cc vsilva_ | 18:10 |
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| marekd | rodrigods: fine, thanks, but we still don't have a clear roadmap :-) | 18:10 |
| rodrigods | marekd, we can also help with the roadmap =p | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | #action please contribute information to the etherpad, we can distill out the requirements and what is really needed and what would be too much. | 18:11 |
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| ayoung | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Kilo/Etherpads#Keystone | 18:11 |
| topol | concrete use cases would be nice | 18:11 |
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| marekd | topol: ++ | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, i have some use-cases for enhancements that "make sense" afaict, but they should be easy sells compared to some of the other things. | 18:11 |
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| ayoung | topol, See the complexit y from gyee's X509 spec he pulled: bascially, the subject of a cert | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | but yes, include the use-case in the etherpad | 18:11 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: ok, thanks. | 18:12 |
| ayoung | topol, also, REMOTE_USER as set by mod_auth_kerb | 18:12 |
| ayoung | and the REMOTE_UISER value from SAML | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, I vote we make the variable REMOTE_UISER in all cases now | 18:12 |
| stevemar | ayoung that should work now.. with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/133037/ merged | 18:12 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, can't | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, darn | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | anyway | 18:12 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: and to be honest i don't know much about nkinder's proposition | 18:12 |
| ayoung | for example, REMOTE_USER might not be the right value from mod_ssl | 18:12 |
| marekd | regarding groups | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, we'll get details outlined in the etherpad | 18:13 |
| marekd | i was hoping he would explain it here pro publico bono :-) | 18:13 |
| ayoung | #link http://www.freeipa.org/page/Environment_Variables | 18:13 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: allrighty. | 18:13 |
| ayoung | And SAML is pretty much An LDAP query | 18:13 |
| marekd | does it all deserve a spec for the kilo release? | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, it should be straight forward once it's laid out like that. | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, likely we will want a spec to encompass the changes. | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | but lets see what comes from the ehterpad first | 18:14 |
| stevemar | yeah, especially if it's new functionality/feature | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | might be that we say "nope not going to happen" | 18:14 |
| stevemar | and not just a bug fix | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | for $REASONS$ | 18:14 |
| ayoung | probably the most common case is split an env var into two pieces, one is username or userid, the other is domain info | 18:14 |
| marekd | engine is not broken as is... | 18:14 |
| marekd | it simply may lack some features | 18:14 |
| marekd | ayoung: i'd still concatenate it | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, correct. thats why i think we need to see the details and then write a spec to encompass the enhancements - clearly detailing the SoW/scope | 18:14 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: great | 18:15 |
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| marekd | i can take care of the specs if we need it. | 18:15 |
| ayoung | #link https://jdennis.fedorapeople.org/doc/mapping.pdf John Dennis' proposal | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | it will help us prevent things sneaking in that are "bad ideas"™ | 18:15 |
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| marekd | ayoung: they made more powerful engine | 18:15 |
| marekd | ok, if anybody else has some usecases please add it to the etherpad | 18:16 |
| ayoung | marekd, "They?" he's on my team. He did this all by himself. jdennis kindof been through this once or twice before | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | I am going to say right now we will for this cycle at least *not* be making the mapping engine configurable - we will maintain 1 mapping engine, even if it means swapping out what we have whole-sale. I don't want to fight with pluggable mapping engines at this point. too many ways for things to be exposed in bad ways | 18:16 |
| topol | morganfainberg +++ | 18:16 |
| marekd | ayoung: ok, great, jdennis, *himself*, from ayoung's team has made a much powerful engine. | 18:16 |
| ayoung | I think that is fine | 18:17 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: ++ seems dangerous if done wrong | 18:17 |
| ayoung | he was doing it for opendaylight. So one benefit to his approach is it would work with another open source project | 18:17 |
| lbragstad | I'm on board with that | 18:17 |
| marekd | ayoung: i know. I really appreciated his e-mails | 18:17 |
| marekd | and it was *really* meritorical stuff. | 18:18 |
| bknudson | seems like if there's an existing mapping tool we should use it rather than try to develop our own | 18:18 |
| marekd | that's why i want to drag your attention | 18:18 |
| ayoung | I would say, though, that he lacks the APIs we need for management. Those are really part of the Federation spec today, and assume the existing mapping language | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, and it might make sense to be compatible - my only hard line is i don't want pluggable engines for many many reasons, mostly around security and making the features solid before we open it up to massive headaches. | 18:18 |
| ayoung | bknudson, technically, ours existed first | 18:18 |
| marekd | and answer the questions: do we need something new? some small fixups, or maybe we should take John's engine? | 18:18 |
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| morganfainberg | also, his iirc is java and would need to be ported to python if we used it. | 18:18 |
| ayoung | he wrote his this year as part of his work on Open Daylight. | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, ++ those are exactly the questions we should answer. | 18:19 |
| jamielennox | if nothing else that doc is awesome | 18:19 |
| topol | java ugghh | 18:19 |
| ayoung | git clone git://fedorapeople.org/~jdennis/federated-mapping.git | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | and would john's engine "fix" the other needs or would we need to expand it as well. | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | s/"fix"/"meet" | 18:19 |
| ayoung | looking to see if he did the python yet | 18:19 |
| bknudson | maybe we can make the python version an openstack project | 18:19 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, I'd support that. | 18:20 |
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| marekd | bknudson: really? | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | if we go down that path | 18:20 |
| stevemar | we're just dealing with arrays and dicts, it shouldn't be hard to port it over | 18:20 |
| marekd | bknudson: morganfainberg like a standalone project? | 18:20 |
| rodrigods | marekd, makes sense, since it's goiing to be pluggable | 18:20 |
| bknudson | it's pretty common... I think this was done with some other python projs that openstack uses. | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, it would be a lib like policy | 18:20 |
| bknudson | sqlalchemy-migrate for example | 18:20 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: ok | 18:20 |
| marekd | i could probably give a helping hand with that. | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, not a "stand alone service" | 18:21 |
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| dstanek | let's just start simple on the etherpad with requirements and gaps - then this discussion will be more valuable | 18:21 |
| joesavak | +1 dstanek | 18:21 |
| marekd | dstanek: ++ | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | but yes, lets get requirements in the etherpad | 18:21 |
| ayoung | there is python code there | 18:21 |
| joesavak | or a spec to detail why this approach is needed and what problems it solves | 18:21 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, if you could poke john to look at the etherpad as well and comment re his mapping engine once we have the use-cases | 18:21 |
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| ayoung | will do | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | see where we land. | 18:22 |
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| morganfainberg | #action ayoung to talk to john dennis about mapping engine and use-cases from etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mapping-engine-enhancements once populated with requested enhancements | 18:22 |
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| rodrigods | morganfainberg, me and vsilva_ will be on top of that as well | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | joesavak, thats the point of the etherpad. | 18:23 |
| joesavak | woot | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | joesavak, post meeting need to bug you fyi. | 18:23 |
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| morganfainberg | ok moving on. | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | #topic K2K federation - status | 18:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "K2K federation - status (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:23 | |
| morganfainberg | marekd, all you again! :) | 18:23 |
| marekd | allrighty, was hoping to see gyee here | 18:23 |
| gyee | here | 18:23 |
| marekd | gyee: oh, sorry! | 18:23 |
| gyee | sorry I got stuck in traffic | 18:23 |
| joesavak | magic. | 18:23 |
| * morganfainberg waves hands "magic" | 18:23 | |
| marekd | so, K2K | 18:24 |
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| joesavak | hoping to see megan fox here | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | joesavak, shh | 18:24 |
| marekd | here! | 18:24 |
| gyee | ++ :) | 18:24 |
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| marekd | so, K2K I wanted to ask if any of you had some experience or tried it out. It was marked as experimental in Juno and I feel there should be some fixes. | 18:25 |
| marekd | i know rodrigods make a setup without security | 18:25 |
| gyee | marekd, we did and it works! | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, i am planning on setting up a multi-way federated cloud test env this week. | 18:25 |
| marekd | i know gyee and Sam were playing with that | 18:25 |
| marekd | gyee: did you turn off crypto? | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | so i expect i'll also have feedback on it. | 18:25 |
| bknudson | Is K2K still marked as experimental? | 18:25 |
| gyee | no | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, yes. | 18:26 |
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| rodrigods | gyee, marekd, AFAIK, Sam disabled security as well | 18:26 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, i hope it will move to "stable" this cycle. | 18:26 |
| rodrigods | at least was the last update he sent to me | 18:26 |
| marekd | gyee: so it worked with a proper assertion signature validation? | 18:26 |
| gyee | I do have a question on federation though, with the way it works, we have to use different URL for different providers | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, but we're just starting to get drive-time on it now. | 18:26 |
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| marekd | rodrigods: that's what he told me . | 18:26 |
| bknudson | we need tempest tests! | 18:26 |
| gyee | yes | 18:26 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, ++ that is part of why i'm setting up the test env | 18:26 |
| leonchio_ | rodrigods, marekd, yes, that's right, I have the signature validation disabled | 18:26 |
| marekd | leonchio_: :/ | 18:26 |
| rodrigods | =( | 18:27 |
| gyee | because of the way redirect works | 18:27 |
| lbragstad | morganfainberg: which test env specifically? | 18:27 |
| rodrigods | leeantho, did you try using the same issuer for both IdP and SP? | 18:27 |
| marekd | also | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | lbragstad, i'm going to be standing up a multi-node / cloud env with k2k + other federation. specifically so we can outline how we're testing it | 18:27 |
| rodrigods | leonchio_, * | 18:27 |
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| gyee | oh, it was disabled? | 18:27 |
| marekd | AFAIR there were some plans of different regions list depending on who is having a local token | 18:27 |
| lbragstad | morganfainberg: ah, that's right... | 18:27 |
| marekd | stevemar: recall anything like that? | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | lbragstad, infra can do multi-node environments now. (but it might be expirimental still) | 18:27 |
| rodrigods | we are missing the region in the catalog as well | 18:27 |
| marekd | rodrigods: hmmmmm, are we? | 18:28 |
| rodrigods | yep | 18:28 |
| marekd | last time i tried it I think i had it | 18:28 |
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| rodrigods | not for me, here | 18:28 |
| marekd | joesavak: we don't want *any user* to see all the clouds that one can burst into, do we? | 18:28 |
| marekd | stevemar: ^^ | 18:28 |
| marekd | this should also be fixed, right? | 18:28 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd, i think that can be fixed with the filtering? | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | leverage endpoint filtering and expand it to region filtering? | 18:29 |
| joesavak | marekd - they should be able to pull a list of trusted service providers so they know which provider to reference when getting the saml assertion from the local cloud to pass to other (service provider) clouds | 18:29 |
| stevemar | marekd, i don't think we put any regions in the catalog right now | 18:29 |
| rodrigods | stevemar, ++ | 18:29 |
| marekd | joesavak: but all the SPs ? | 18:30 |
| gyee | but we can group endpoints based on regions | 18:30 |
| jamielennox | stevemar: i thought we do | 18:30 |
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| marekd | stevemar: rodrigods i will check it, maybe i messed sth up. | 18:30 |
| gyee | its an attribute of endpoint isn't it? | 18:30 |
| joesavak | marekd - perhaps rbac, or relating which domains can access which SPs is needed... | 18:30 |
| stevemar | oh i didn't think about filtering at all | 18:31 |
| joesavak | i can see that some restriction would be good - but I think it's supposed to be a list-all right now | 18:31 |
| jamielennox | also regarding having SPs still feel that it's a bad idea to put anything in the catalog that can't be accessed with the current token | 18:31 |
| marekd | stevemar: morganfainberg but isn't filtering a client-initiated action? | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, no endpoint filtering is server side | 18:31 |
| gyee | https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/master/keystone/catalog/schema.py#L73 | 18:31 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: on what basis? | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | it doesn't prevent use of a target | 18:31 |
| marekd | joesavak: aha, ok | 18:31 |
| marekd | joesavak: i thought you would be concerned. | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, but it's a cloud provider can filter endpoints per project etc | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | for now i think filtering out targets is an enhancement | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | not a design of the current system | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | aha, joesavak ++ | 18:32 |
| marekd | one last thing. | 18:32 |
| marekd | currently we add only one url to a region | 18:32 |
| marekd | which is a SP URL where the assertion should be send. | 18:33 |
| joesavak | a little concerned - but should be manageable - via RBAC or even endpoint assignment to identity | 18:33 |
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| gyee | joesavak, security is a manageable condition :D | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, hah | 18:33 |
| joesavak | implementors choice. ; ) | 18:33 |
| marekd | but this means, a client needs to know another URL apriori, an endpoint where he should go once authenticated. | 18:34 |
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| rodrigods | marekd, ++ | 18:34 |
| marekd | and it put a lot of concern on people. | 18:34 |
| rodrigods | yeah, that's a tricky point | 18:34 |
| marekd | yes | 18:34 |
| marekd | so I suggest we add two url to the bursting regions | 18:34 |
| rodrigods | since we do not have a real relay_state =P | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, fallback url? | 18:34 |
| marekd | you mean? | 18:35 |
| joesavak | one being the foreign keystone URL and the other being what? | 18:35 |
| rodrigods | joesavak, the auth URL | 18:35 |
| marekd | joesavak: let's say the protected url is sp-keystone.com/secure | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | rodrigods, but that should be discoverable? | 18:35 |
| marekd | joesavak: but the assertion is gonna be sent to sp-keystone.com/shibboleth.sso/ecp | 18:35 |
| rodrigods | morganfainberg, I need to know how the SP called my IdP | 18:36 |
| rodrigods | which should be a out-of-band operation | 18:36 |
| marekd | and today we configure the latter only | 18:36 |
| rodrigods | I think | 18:36 |
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| joesavak | response from assertion call is a scoped token, right? So can I get the auth URL from that scope? | 18:36 |
| joesavak | GET v3/endpoints -H X-Auth-Token: $scopedToken | 18:36 |
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| joesavak | or unscoped even | 18:37 |
| rodrigods | joesavak, that's exactly the URL we need to go to get the scoped token | 18:37 |
| marekd | joesavak: is this GET to IdP or SP ? | 18:37 |
| joesavak | GET to SP | 18:37 |
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| rodrigods | v3/identity_providers/<idp_id>/protocols/<protocol>/auth | 18:37 |
| marekd | how do you know this url | 18:37 |
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| marekd | no, wait. | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, isn't that the URL in the region? | 18:38 |
| rodrigods | morganfainberg, the one in the region is the SP url | 18:38 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: no, the one in the region is for POST /Shibboleth.sso/ADFS (e.g) where you send your assertion | 18:38 |
| rodrigods | like Shibboleth.sso/ECP | 18:38 |
| rodrigods | so marekd wants another field to store v3/identity_providers/<idp_id>/protocols/<protocol>/auth | 18:39 |
| rodrigods | right? | 18:39 |
| marekd | and then, usually SP responds with HTTP 302 and location set to keystone.example.com instead of keystone.example.com/v3/OS-FEDERATION/identity_providers/<idp>protoc/.../auth | 18:39 |
| marekd | rodrigods: yes | 18:39 |
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| marekd | it's all because the workflow is so called IdP initiated authentication | 18:39 |
| joesavak | Gotcha - because we made the protocols extensible - the URL may differ outside of the known keysotne contract for assertion processing - so 2 URLs are needed | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | ah | 18:40 |
| marekd | joesavak: exacly! | 18:40 |
| rodrigods | joesavak, ++ | 18:40 |
| ayoung | 20 minutes left | 18:40 |
| gyee | jamielennox, how's that going to work with keystoneclient? | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | that seems reasonable | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | but it will need client side work i think | 18:40 |
| gyee | I don't think that auth url is discoverable | 18:40 |
| joesavak | Ok , I'm ok with that - federationURL and keystoneURL (optional) | 18:40 |
| marekd | joesavak: yeah. | 18:40 |
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| rodrigods | joesavak, would easy a lot to automate the clients | 18:41 |
| ayoung | is this for the Horizon use case? | 18:41 |
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| jamielennox | gyee: i think it's specific to the federation auth plugin | 18:41 |
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| joesavak | rod - didn't understand your comment | 18:42 |
| gyee | jamielennox, I mean it doesn't seem to follow the usual client workflow | 18:42 |
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| jamielennox | gyee: having all of this stuck in a region doesn't follow the regular workflow | 18:42 |
| marekd | joesavak: he meant that clients would need to figure out one extra utl | 18:42 |
| bknudson | we could put the auth urls in the json-home document somehow | 18:42 |
| marekd | url | 18:42 |
| joesavak | yup | 18:42 |
| marekd | joesavak: they could work fully automated. | 18:42 |
| rodrigods | marekd, joearnold exactly | 18:42 |
| jamielennox | i tried to break the region == SP think prior to kilo but didn't get there in time | 18:42 |
| rodrigods | joesavak, * | 18:42 |
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| morganfainberg | jamielennox, why is it wrong to assume a region == SP ? | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | in this case? | 18:43 |
| jamielennox | 1. makes it confusing with how people currently use regions 2. breaks the concept that everything in the service catalog can be accessed with the current token | 18:44 |
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| jamielennox | (from memory #2 still applies - maybe changed since then) | 18:44 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, the client discovery code won't work as is | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | except the region *only* has a url. | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | not endpoints in this case. | 18:44 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: joesavak one thing, just remembered. | 18:44 |
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| marekd | shouldn't we also add some *another* parameterer to the region? | 18:45 |
| marekd | like the federated protocol? | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | ok this needs more discussion - we can enhance/change this but we have other topics to get to in this meeting. | 18:45 |
| jamielennox | morganfainberg: which seems like we shoehorned something into a current resource with edge cases rather than just make a new resource | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | we can make this better since k2k is expirimental if it's really warranted | 18:45 |
| marekd | today we have only saml2, but tommorow regions/SP A,B,C will be saml2 only, but M,N OIDC | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | this is the point of experimental | 18:45 |
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| jamielennox | morganfainberg: we could have made an SP resource and put that into the catalog | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | but the case needs to be really strong. | 18:45 |
| marekd | how am i going to be able to distinguish? | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, so i think we should evaluate shifting to an SP resource or similar | 18:46 |
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| marekd | jamielennox: that would be not a bad idea | 18:46 |
| jamielennox | marekd: at this point you're taking over the region concept and i would vote to making a new SP resource in which all of this makes sense | 18:46 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:46 |
| gyee | marekd, if SP is a resource in SC, we could filter it | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | or at least a clear way to identify a "Region" is a resource | 18:46 |
| joesavak | yeah - we should have the protocol the SP uses to be discoverable. | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | or whatever | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | but yes. | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | lets evaluating making that shift before we stabilize k2k | 18:47 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: so, whole new api for adding service providers, just like we have IdP now? | 18:47 |
| marekd | stevemar: joesavak ^^ ? | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | #action Evaluate Service Provider as part of the Catalog | 18:47 |
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| joesavak | +1 | 18:47 |
| ayoung | Heh...that was inthe origianl Kent proposal | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, funny how things come full circle | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | ok #topic HM releases planning | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | erm | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | #topic HM releases planning | 18:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "HM releases planning (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:47 | |
| raildo | \o | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | raildo, rodrigods o/ | 18:48 |
| rodrigods | o/ | 18:48 |
| raildo | So, this is our planning for HM in Kilo: | 18:48 |
| ayoung | release early release often | 18:48 |
| raildo | Kilo-1 the base implementation about HM merged and the new specs about HM improvements https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135309/ and the Reseller Use case (I'm writing it) merged too. | 18:48 |
| gyee | ayoung ++ | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | raildo, thats a good target | 18:48 |
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| raildo | Kilo-2 the entire code about HM and Reseller use case committed. | 18:48 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:48 |
| rodrigods | so, for Kilo-1 | 18:48 |
| rodrigods | please review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/117786/ and the following patches | 18:49 |
| rodrigods | =) | 18:49 |
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| raildo | rodrigods, ++ | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | raildo, once the base code is merged we will need to resolve the rebase against master to topic branch | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | then we do a simple topic branch -> master merge | 18:49 |
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| raildo | morganfainberg, yes, i believe that we can do that in kilo-1 too | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | should be straight forward. | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | yes | 18:49 |
| rodrigods | really wanted it to land before henrynash refactoring | 18:49 |
| rodrigods | hehe | 18:49 |
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| henrynash | rodigods: eek | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | rodrigods, race to rebase. | 18:50 |
| raildo | hah | 18:50 |
| raildo | and for Kilo-3 just reviews and resolve some bugs related to HM (if it appears :) ) | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | makes sense | 18:50 |
| raildo | So, We have this Wiki about HM Meeting: | 18:50 |
| henrynash | rodigods: we should just talk about which way makes the most sense | 18:50 |
| raildo | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HierarchicalMultitenancyMeeting | 18:50 |
| raildo | (just follow the Keystone pattern) | 18:50 |
| rodrigods | the idea is that Kilo-2 code won't be a feature branch anymore | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | rodrigods, that is my hope | 18:51 |
| raildo | the HM meetings on Friday at 16:00 UTC here in #openstack-meeting I invite everyone to participate | 18:51 |
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| raildo | :) | 18:51 |
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| ayoung | raildo, do what we do at the start of this meeting: | 18:51 |
| henrynash | rodigods: my go | 18:51 |
| ayoung | paste in the names of the keystone contributors that you want there | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | ok so we can quickly get to the last couple topics we have. | 18:52 |
| rodrigods | ayoung, ++ | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | we need to keep moving. | 18:52 |
| raildo | ayoung, sure | 18:52 |
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| raildo | morganfainberg, ok | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Oslo-Incubator Policy Graduation to Keystone Program | 18:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Oslo-Incubator Policy Graduation to Keystone Program (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:52 | |
| morganfainberg | We are adopting the policy lib | 18:52 |
| gyee | w00t! | 18:52 |
| ayoung | w00t | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | it'll be run like pycadf (separate core team), if you're not interested as keystoen-core you wont need to be on core | 18:52 |
| ayoung | and we are waiting on fileutils to move to oslo.utils, | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | though i hope everyone will want to be core on it | 18:53 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, we decided to wait? | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | anyway rodrigods is writing the spec | 18:53 |
| rodrigods | ayoung, morganfainberg not that I'm aware of | 18:53 |
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| rodrigods | yep | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | the proposed name is pycpre | 18:53 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, ah...we can go ahead without that? Good! | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | since it can't be in the oslo namespace | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, we can. | 18:53 |
| rodrigods | hmm missed the name choice part | 18:53 |
| ayoung | pycpre was a joke | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, lol ;) | 18:53 |
| ayoung | but someone took it seriously | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | sorry skipped the :) | 18:53 |
| ayoung | cloud policy rules engine | 18:54 |
| gyee | :| | 18:54 |
| * topol The Keystone empire grows..... | 18:54 | |
| ayoung | srsly we need a name | 18:54 |
| dolphm | rodrigods: is that spec already published somewhere? | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | in all seriousness i want a name that isn't "keystone" namespaced | 18:54 |
| rodrigods | would be nice a name to pronounce without being an acronym | 18:54 |
| dolphm | topol: AAA | 18:54 |
| ayoung | python-policy might be too over-reaching | 18:54 |
| rodrigods | dolphm, not yet, will publish in keystone-specs | 18:54 |
| topol | dolphm, indeed | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | and it can't be oslo namespaced | 18:54 |
| gyee | congress? | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | topol, i swear dolph and I didn't discuss this | 18:55 |
| gyee | just kidding! | 18:55 |
| ayoung | cyprus? | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | anyway | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | think of names | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | discuss w/ rodrigods and in the spec | 18:55 |
| topol | gyee..... really??? | 18:55 |
| gyee | hey now | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | we'll continue this convo elsewhere | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Policy Specifications | 18:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Policy Specifications (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:55 | |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, o/ | 18:55 |
| ayoung | Yay! | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | 5 mins | 18:55 |
| pballand | gyee: good one ;) | 18:55 |
| topol | I for one welcome my new Keystone overlords :-) | 18:55 |
| ayoung | OK...so henrynash and I have been hashin a few things out | 18:55 |
| henrynash | ayoung: :-) | 18:56 |
| dolphm | pypolice | 18:56 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, hehe | 18:56 |
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| dolphm | pylice? | 18:56 |
| rodrigods | pypo | 18:56 |
| ayoung | probably the most contentious thing was the distinction between hierarchical roles (not the role assignments) and role groups | 18:56 |
| rodrigods | haha | 18:56 |
| topol | yuck | 18:56 |
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| joesavak | keystone cops and the pylice | 18:56 |
| dolphm | rodrigods: ++ | 18:56 |
| joesavak | lol | 18:56 |
| dstanek | call it customs; they are strict and almost didn't let me back into the US | 18:56 |
| dstanek | customs.policy | 18:56 |
| henrynash | ayoung: are we on to a lost casue here? | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | hey | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | we need to cover this | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | it's important | 18:57 |
| ayoung | nah, we are, aI thinkm, talking about two aspects of related but different things | 18:57 |
| topol | they demanded dstanek shave his beard or stop rotting for the browns | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | jokes can go #openstack-keystone | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | post meeting. | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, please continue | 18:57 |
| dolphm | ayoung: can you reset the conversation back to the problem being solved? it's hard to follow along as the discussion seems to jump straight into the solutions and the steps required to implement those solutions | 18:57 |
| ayoung | so we need a shorthand for identifying that one role (or someting) means multiple roles | 18:57 |
| ayoung | ok...problems to be solved: | 18:57 |
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| ayoung | well, henrynash 's solving the problem of "domain specific roles" | 18:58 |
| dstanek | topol: rotting is probably correct | 18:58 |
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| morganfainberg | they are closely related | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | and can/should co-exist | 18:58 |
| henrynash | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/133855/ | 18:58 |
| dolphm | ayoung: that's already a solution, not a use case | 18:59 |
| samuelms | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:59 |
| ayoung | dolphm, take that up with henry, not my problem to solve. I was starting with "how do we unify delegations into one mechanism" | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, the #1 usecase is for a domain admin to be able to redelegate groupings of permissions to users on projects under the domain | 18:59 |
| henrynash | dolphm: Problem 2: Different domains want to be able to create their own "roles" which are more meaningful to their users...but our "roles" are global and are directly linked to the rules in the policy file - something only a cloud operator is going to want to own. | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, ++ | 19:00 |
| henrynash | dolphm: Solution: Have some kind of domain-scoped role-group (or meta-role) that a domain owner can define, that maps to a set of underlying roles that a policy file understands. [As has been pointed out, what we are really doing with this is finally doing real RBAC, where what we call roles today are really capabilities and role-groups are really roles] | 19:00 |
| ayoung | and delegate something more fine-grained than just the role I've been assigned | 19:00 |
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| dolphm | perfect, thanks | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, thats the next piece you're advocating. | 19:00 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, it grew out of the constraints discussion | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, we decided at the summit that first pass was coarse groupings to ensure we could solve the immidiate need | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | anyway | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | that is time | 19:00 |
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| morganfainberg | continue the topic in #openstack-keystone | 19:01 |
| ayoung | I want to be able to say "this token can only do operation O" | 19:01 |
| morganfainberg | and jokes. | 19:01 |
| morganfainberg | #endmeeting | 19:01 |
| ayoung | read up | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 18 19:01:13 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-11-18-18.02.html | 19:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-11-18-18.02.txt | 19:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-11-18-18.02.log.html | 19:01 |
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| fungi | infra peoples unite! | 19:01 |
| morganfainberg | fungi, /me runs and hides. | 19:01 |
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| clarkb | o/ | 19:01 |
| morganfainberg | :) | 19:01 |
| anteaya | o/ | 19:01 |
| clarkb | morganfainberg: careful running on that knee | 19:01 |
| mmedvede | o/ | 19:01 |
| morganfainberg | clarkb, fair point | 19:01 |
| asselin | 0/ | 19:01 |
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| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 18 19:02:03 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:02 |
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| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:02 |
| ianw | o/ | 19:02 |
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| jesusaurus | o/ | 19:02 |
| fungi | we've got what looks like a very long and detailed agenda | 19:02 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 19:02 |
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| fungi | i'm going to be cruel and drop the "moar reviews please" entries for the sake of getting issues/progress discussed | 19:03 |
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| * sdague can lurk again, now that CSA season is over | 19:03 | |
| fungi | apologies to those who are not getting enough reviews on their patches though, let's cover that in #openstack-infra later | 19:03 |
| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
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| fungi | there wer ejust the two for me and clark carried over from two meetings prior, and i'll repost those in hopes we get to them | 19:04 |
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| fungi | #action clarkb figure out gerrit per project third party voting ACLs and third party accounts via openid | 19:04 |
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| clarkb | I have not gotten to that yet | 19:04 |
| fungi | #action fungi draft initial third-party liaisons description, to later be amended as needed before publication | 19:04 |
| fungi | nor have i that one | 19:04 |
| clarkb | but now that I am back from summiting I should definitely have much more time to do that thing | 19:05 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts (Swift logs) | 19:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Swift logs) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:05 | |
| fungi | nothing new on this front i'm aware of | 19:05 |
| anteaya | what do we need from a third party liaisons description? | 19:05 |
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| anteaya | they all do something different | 19:05 |
| fungi | anteaya: yep, we can talk about it after the meeting | 19:05 |
| anteaya | kk | 19:05 |
| fungi | jhesketh: around? | 19:05 |
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| clarkb | iirc jhesketh is on vacation in europe for a couple more weeks | 19:06 |
| fungi | ahh, righth-o | 19:06 |
| fungi | moving on then | 19:06 |
| clarkb | sorry "holiday" | 19:06 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:06 |
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| krtaylor | o/ | 19:06 |
| fungi | yep, last i recall we still needed some performance profiling | 19:06 |
| fungi | presumably that's where we still are | 19:06 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts (Puppet module split) | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Puppet module split) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:07 | |
| fungi | asselin: great work on the jenkins module split | 19:07 |
| asselin | thanks :) | 19:07 |
| anteaya | yay asselin | 19:07 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:07 |
| fungi | lessons learned there and in the previous module translated into some more improvements to the instructions in the spec | 19:07 |
| asselin | process is getting ironed out. | 19:07 |
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| fungi | but all in all that one was not terribly painful except that the project creation change got approved after changes were approved to the same module in system-config | 19:08 |
| asselin | 'last' question is regarding module file. project page and issues_url | 19:08 |
| fungi | so i ended up needing to force-push a new repo state into it once asselin prepared it | 19:08 |
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| anteaya | how are we avoiding that in future? | 19:08 |
| fungi | anteaya: clearer commit messages | 19:09 |
| asselin | and I had to re-subtree and push to my temp repo. not too difficult | 19:09 |
| anteaya | awesome | 19:09 |
| asselin | anteaya, I added a not in the spec about it | 19:09 |
| asselin | note* | 19:09 |
| anteaya | great | 19:09 |
| fungi | asselin: i was good with your proposed metadata, but still need a second core vote on https://review.openstack.org/134373 and https://review.openstack.org/134393 | 19:09 |
| nibalizer | git merge is also terrible at figuring out how to merge yaml i guess, so after every module split lands we have to rebase the rest | 19:10 |
| nibalizer | not a big deal tho | 19:10 |
| fungi | asselin: anything else on teh jenkins module or lessons we learned there? | 19:10 |
| clarkb | I can review those today | 19:10 |
| asselin | no, just review and look at the comments. not 100% clear what the issues url should be | 19:10 |
| fungi | nibalizer: you have some items for the github and pip modules yeah? | 19:11 |
| nibalizer | ya thats a question | 19:11 |
| nibalizer | just notes that they're ready if corse want to do them | 19:11 |
| asselin | do we have a storyboard for each puppet module? | 19:11 |
| fungi | asselin: we automatically get that with sb | 19:11 |
| nibalizer | but asselin's question should be discussed | 19:11 |
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| fungi | oh, though i guess no storyboard project has appeared yet for openstack-infra/puppet-jenkins | 19:12 |
| nibalizer | so there isn't a storyboard for every module right now | 19:12 |
| clarkb | do you need a uses storyboard flag to be set on the new projects? | 19:13 |
| fungi | ahh, yeah we flag them in projects.yaml | 19:13 |
| fungi | so there's a to-do item | 19:13 |
| nibalizer | okay | 19:13 |
| nibalizer | wfm | 19:13 |
| fungi | but i agree we should have a sb project for each of them (for every one of our git repos ideally?) | 19:13 |
| clarkb | ya and ensure they are part of the correct storyboard group(s) | 19:14 |
| fungi | okay, sounds good | 19:14 |
| mtreinish | fungi: does that include subunit2sql? That's under openstack-infra too... | 19:14 |
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| fungi | #agreed each puppet module needs a storyboard project | 19:15 |
| asselin | ok I will update docs and jenkins to use-storyboard: true | 19:15 |
| fungi | #agreed each puppet module needs to be associated with the infra project group | 19:15 |
| nibalizer | and that will be the bug reporting url for the metadata.json | 19:15 |
| fungi | mtreinish: yeah, in my opinion it's the same for any infra project | 19:15 |
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| clarkb | ++ | 19:15 |
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| asselin | when do we delete the upstream git repo? | 19:16 |
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| fungi | whenever now | 19:16 |
| mtreinish | fungi: hmm, ok I guess I can get my feet wet using it for that then | 19:17 |
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| fungi | as soon as it's safely imported, you can delete the original | 19:17 |
| clarkb | though there really isn't much reason too (so doesn't need to be a priority) | 19:17 |
| fungi | okay, also nibalizer has a proposed change to improve the module inclusion list for our puppet apply integration test | 19:17 |
| nibalizer | yep | 19:17 |
| fungi | i'll link the related reviews for this topic before i forget | 19:18 |
| nibalizer | basically just sources modules.env so we we dont have to keep two lists | 19:18 |
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| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/134373 | 19:18 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/134393 | 19:18 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/134723 | 19:18 |
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| fungi | sounds fine to me | 19:18 |
| fungi | anything else on the puppet module split-out spec? | 19:19 |
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| fungi | we need shepherds for the pip and github modules i guess | 19:19 |
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| fungi | i'm happy to work with you on those this week unless someone else wants a turn | 19:19 |
| asselin | I can start the 'next' module. not sure which | 19:19 |
| nibalizer | fungi: awesome | 19:20 |
| nibalizer | nothing else for module split for me | 19:20 |
| asselin | thanks fungi for shepharding this one | 19:20 |
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| fungi | #action fungi nibalizer get pip and github modules split out | 19:21 |
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| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) | 19:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:21 | |
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| fungi | no news on this front, right? | 19:21 |
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| clarkb | nope, but I intend on reloading nodepool as trusty real soon now | 19:21 |
| fungi | okay cool | 19:22 |
| clarkb | probably after jeblair gets back just in case anything goes really sideways | 19:22 |
| nibalizer | trusty++ | 19:22 |
| fungi | sounds good to me | 19:22 |
| clarkb | and once I have done that we can really start moving on dib again as we will have the things we need to do that | 19:22 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts (Docs publishing) | 19:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Docs publishing) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:22 | |
| annegent_ | woowoo | 19:22 |
| fungi | i believe this is also waiting on people to be done travelling and get back into the swing of things | 19:22 |
| anteaya | and swift logs | 19:22 |
| * annegent_ is just happy it's a priority effort | 19:22 | |
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| clarkb | ya there is a spec up. I know I reviewed one version of it at least | 19:23 |
| fungi | right, well at least it's tied in with any adjustments we end up making to the swift log publication process | 19:23 |
| fungi | #link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/doc-publishing.html | 19:23 |
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| fungi | clarkb: that one, or something new? | 19:23 |
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| clarkb | thats the one | 19:24 |
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| clarkb | (which includes the proposed change if anyone is interested in implementing it) | 19:24 |
| fungi | okay, cool. so real soon now i guess, for some definition of real, soon and now | 19:24 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts (Jobs on trusty) | 19:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Jobs on trusty) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:24 | |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/py34-transition | 19:25 |
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| fungi | the good news is now we're really just down to the ubuntu backports we need | 19:25 |
| fungi | the bad news is there's been no visible movement on those bug reports for a month or more | 19:25 |
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| anteaya | :( | 19:25 |
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| fungi | zul suggested i should pester barry about it, so i guess that's the next step | 19:26 |
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| fungi | i think we really just need bug 1348954 worked, which would backport the most python recent 3.4.x to trusty | 19:26 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1348954 in python3.4 "update Python3 for trusty" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1348954 | 19:26 |
| fungi | #topic puppet-httpd (ianw 11/18) | 19:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "puppet-httpd (ianw 11/18) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:27 | |
| fungi | so looks like the project was created as an empty project/imported an empty repo? | 19:27 |
| nibalizer | ya | 19:28 |
| nibalizer | we didn't import | 19:28 |
| fungi | and there's some desire to get an initial puppet-apache module codebase imported as of the 1.0 tag? | 19:28 |
| nibalizer | which after it landed i was like *facepalm* | 19:28 |
| nibalizer | i've submitted a review to add the 0.0.4 code | 19:28 |
| fungi | oh, 0.0.4 | 19:28 |
| nibalizer | oh wow it fails lint | 19:28 |
| nibalizer | haha | 19:28 |
| nibalizer | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135369/ | 19:28 |
| fungi | i _can_ just git push --force that and preserve the upstream commit history, which would be nicer | 19:28 |
| nibalizer | thats amazing | 19:28 |
| nibalizer | fungi: ++ to that | 19:29 |
| nibalizer | then we can add a first commit to fix all the linting problems | 19:29 |
| fungi | and then your first change can be limited to whatever refactoring and cleanup is necessary to get jobs passing on it | 19:29 |
| fungi | yeah, that | 19:29 |
| fungi | okay | 19:29 |
| fungi | #action fungi push puppet-apache 0.0.4 into puppet-httpd master | 19:30 |
| nibalizer | woot | 19:30 |
| ianw | i can look at the issues after that's in | 19:30 |
| fungi | ianw: if you're around, anything else on this? | 19:30 |
| fungi | aha, awesome | 19:30 |
| ianw | no, that's all | 19:31 |
| fungi | ianw: so does that solve your concerns with the initial repo state? | 19:31 |
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| nibalizer | then later (next week maybe) we can replace plabs apache with openstackci-httpd in modules.env | 19:31 |
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| ianw | fungi: yep | 19:31 |
| fungi | perfect | 19:31 |
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| fungi | oh, i skipped a very important priority effort, so rewinding to that topic group for a sec | 19:31 |
| fungi | apologies | 19:31 |
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| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts (Storyboard migration) | 19:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Storyboard migration) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:32 | |
| clarkb | its happening! \o/ | 19:32 |
| fungi | i meant to hit this right after the module split-outs | 19:32 |
| krotscheck | Yes! | 19:32 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/infra-storyboard-migration | 19:32 |
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| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/storyboard-migration-email | 19:32 |
| clarkb | the last two docs update changes related to this are slowly getting in. pypi-mirror is part of the integrated gate | 19:33 |
| fungi | so next steps there are to get the remaining documentation updates approved/merged (are there any left?) | 19:33 |
| clarkb | (it shouldn't be, but is) | 19:33 |
| fungi | yeah, that | 19:33 |
| krotscheck | There’s a couple. | 19:33 |
| clarkb | and git-review change had a -1 for that test bug so it is making its way through rechecks | 19:33 |
| fungi | and then i need to do one last catch-up pass of imports, locking down lp bugs for each corresponding project as i go | 19:33 |
| fungi | and then krotscheck can send the notice to our community | 19:34 |
| krotscheck | WooooO! | 19:34 |
| krotscheck | And then the firestorm starts. | 19:34 |
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| fungi | and then we get to fix all the new problems we're going to encounter, yes ;) | 19:34 |
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| clarkb | but it really is happening. super excited | 19:34 |
| fungi | items worth noting... | 19:34 |
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| clarkb | I have storyboard in a pinned tab already | 19:34 |
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| fungi | first off, elastic-recheck needs to continue using the lp openstack-ci project for bugs for some indeterminate period | 19:35 |
| fungi | so i won't lock that down, and will probably need to periodically refresh the storyboard openstack-infra/system-config bug import | 19:35 |
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| fungi | we _think_ the import script will handle that gracefully, based on incremental use of it so far | 19:36 |
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| fungi | at least we have evidence that it works like we'll want | 19:36 |
| krotscheck | Yep. It just won’t eb fast. | 19:36 |
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| fungi | i don't care about fast. i have computers | 19:36 |
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| anteaya | I like things that eb slow | 19:36 |
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| fungi | other issue, as was mentioned in the summit session, is that e-mail notification isn't implemented yet. i know there has been some concern expressed that end users opening bugs may miss noticing updates | 19:37 |
| fungi | projects which are especially concerned by this should consider helping to get that storyboard spec implemented | 19:38 |
| fungi | #action fungi refresh storyboard imports and lock lp bugs | 19:39 |
| krotscheck | That’d be nice. | 19:39 |
| fungi | #action krotscheck announce infra projects migration to storyboard | 19:39 |
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| fungi | anybody have anything else on the sb migration front? | 19:40 |
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| fungi | #topic Puppet module maturity (nibalizer) | 19:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Puppet module maturity (nibalizer) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:40 | |
| fungi | 'sup nibalizer? | 19:40 |
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| nibalizer | so id like to take a few steps to up our puppet module maintainer game | 19:40 |
| nibalizer | first is adding forge uploads into the same kindof workflow we do for other things | 19:41 |
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| nibalizer | so tag, sign, push, then boom forge reease | 19:41 |
| nibalizer | i think i've got the engineering part of that figure out | 19:41 |
| nibalizer | https://review.openstack.org/134835 and https://review.openstack.org/134834 | 19:41 |
| nibalizer | im looking to this group to say 'yea thats a good idea lets do it!' | 19:42 |
| fungi | also there was a credential issue raised, from what i saw with your discussion with crinkle yesterday | 19:42 |
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| nibalizer | well so yes kindof | 19:42 |
| nibalizer | im speaking in this context only about openstackci modules | 19:42 |
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| fungi | (around stackforge namespace and the current openstack puppet module community) | 19:42 |
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| nibalizer | yea they have a different namespace | 19:43 |
| nibalizer | and im comfortable dealing with that down the road | 19:43 |
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| fungi | okay, so not relevant for stackforge puppet modules, but openstack-infra yes | 19:43 |
| nibalizer | now historically we've submitted infra puppet modules to the openstackci namespace on the forge | 19:43 |
| fungi | and we translate openstack-infra/puppet-(.*) to openstackci/\1? | 19:43 |
| nibalizer | but i've got the impression we want to be openstack-infra not openstaci? can someone explain the context there? | 19:44 |
| nibalizer | what name should we use on the forge? | 19:44 |
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| fungi | i'm not one for bikeshed arguments, if the current name is entrenched and not entirely confusing, then i'm in favor of continuing to use it | 19:44 |
| nibalizer | works for me | 19:44 |
| nibalizer | who has the password for that? | 19:44 |
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| nibalizer | and can those keys get added to hiera? | 19:45 |
| fungi | i think all our root admins do, but i'll double check | 19:45 |
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| nibalizer | okay | 19:45 |
| fungi | and yeah we would copy that into hiera if needed for upload jobs | 19:45 |
| clarkb | ya we should all have access to it as rooters | 19:45 |
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| nibalizer | next puppet has a tool that can generate pretty documenation, id like to start doing that and uploading it somewhere | 19:45 |
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| nibalizer | and after that i'd like to start adding tests to the modules | 19:46 |
| fungi | wfm | 19:46 |
| nibalizer | and after that i'd like to add a section to the infra-manual about these modules | 19:46 |
| nibalizer | so thats my plan, questions? comments? concerns? | 19:46 |
| fungi | all sounds fine to me | 19:47 |
| nibalizer | okay sweet, im done then | 19:47 |
| anteaya | do attend the manual sprint and we can find the right way to do that | 19:47 |
| anteaya | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/VirtualSprints | 19:47 |
| fungi | as for the module uploading, a spec might be warranted | 19:47 |
| nibalizer | anteaya: ok | 19:47 |
| fungi | though if it's likely to be a smallish patch, we could probably dispense with the spec formality | 19:48 |
| clarkb | fungi: ya especially since its a thing we do for pypi and maven stuff already | 19:48 |
| clarkb | and the method should be similar | 19:48 |
| fungi | we already have some existing patterns which can be mostly copied to achieve this | 19:48 |
| nibalizer | fungi: the patch is also linked up there, so we can discuss it in the patch | 19:48 |
| fungi | right, that's what i was thinkingh | 19:48 |
| fungi | nibalizer: okay, should be fine to move forward there then | 19:49 |
| nibalizer | the thing to note is that puppet forge uploader ( a tool called blacksmith) doesnt run arbitrary code, it just tars and updates, so its all being done on the trusted node | 19:49 |
| nibalizer | anyways we can have that conversation in gerrit and not eat meeting time | 19:49 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/134834 | 19:49 |
| nibalizer | thats it for me | 19:49 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/134835 | 19:49 |
| fungi | #topic Review requests | 19:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review requests (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:49 | |
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| fungi | ianw wants you all to know he has some nifty changes to review (see meeting agenda for various links) | 19:50 |
| fungi | also hashar says reviews on openstack-infra/zuul are piling up | 19:50 |
| clarkb | go checkout the multi node testing devstack gate changes too ;) | 19:50 |
| ianw | i think nothing too controversial, just some stuff that has been sitting there | 19:50 |
| fungi | right. we have lots of stuff that needs reviewing, so, um, let's do all that | 19:51 |
| fungi | #topic Open discussion | 19:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:51 | |
| clarkb | so I will admit that I am doing my best to focus on the priority related things | 19:51 |
| fungi | the floor is open for any other concerns | 19:51 |
| clarkb | because they are priorities and I only have so much time | 19:51 |
| fungi | clarkb: yep, me too | 19:51 |
| fungi | okay, if there's nothing else, we also need to talk about project renames | 19:53 |
| fungi | i assume any time before next meeting is not terribly convenient, but maybe next week it needs to come up on our agenda | 19:53 |
| fungi | oh, and we have a sizable backlog of third-party ci account requests | 19:54 |
| clarkb | ya this week and next are actually pretty bad | 19:54 |
| clarkb | since we have turkey day and I am still recovering from 2 weeks of afk | 19:54 |
| fungi | some contentious, hence i started a thread on the infra ml | 19:54 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2014-November/002126.html | 19:54 |
| nibalizer | i could use hlp with the beaker-rspec stuff, if a rooter has some time to 1:1 and nodepool hold | 19:55 |
| fungi | i'd like to go ahead and service the pending requests where possible, but we need to try to achieve some consensus on where our naming rules need to be strictly applied and where we can loosen them | 19:55 |
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| clarkb | nibalizer: I don't have context there, but happy to do that | 19:55 |
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| nibalizer | clarkb: that would be amazing | 19:55 |
| clarkb | fungi: I am with you. I think stackforge should be allowed to wild west within reason | 19:55 |
| clarkb | and hving third party tests for stackforge things is reasonable | 19:56 |
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| fungi | well, reasonable and something which a number of them already do and have accounts grandfathered in for | 19:56 |
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| clarkb | ya | 19:56 |
| clarkb | I can respond to the list | 19:56 |
| fungi | appreciated | 19:56 |
| fungi | okay, if that's all, i'll wrap the meeting and let ttx have the channel | 19:57 |
| fungi | thanks everyone! | 19:58 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 19:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 18 19:58:07 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-11-18-19.02.html | 19:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-11-18-19.02.txt | 19:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-11-18-19.02.log.html | 19:58 |
| nibalizer | thanks everyone | 19:58 |
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| ttx | o/ | 20:02 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:02 |
| mikal | Hi | 20:02 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:02 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:02 |
| jaypipes | o/ | 20:02 |
| devananda | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | jgriffith, annegentle, mordred, vishy, jeblair : around ? | 20:02 |
| sdague | jeblair is still traveling today, he won't be here | 20:02 |
| * fungi lurks for jeblair's sake | 20:02 | |
| sdague | I also think mordred is on a plane right now | 20:02 |
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| ttx | jgriffith warned me he wouldn't be around | 20:03 |
| annegentle | heyo | 20:03 |
| clarkb | silly airplanes. they give me jet lag | 20:03 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 18 20:03:22 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:03 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:03 |
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| annegentle | oh I do have to leave early today | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:03 |
| ttx | annegentle: we'll make it quick then :) | 20:03 |
| ttx | #topic Design summit format feedback | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Design summit format feedback (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
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| ttx | How do you think it went ? | 20:03 |
| sdague | +1 would summit again | 20:03 |
| ttx | I'm exploring how we could merge pods / meetups / contributors-oriented sessions on one side... | 20:04 |
| russellb | i heard lots of good feedback about the Friday change | 20:04 |
| ttx | and differentiate from larger rooms / honeypot / scheduled sessions / feedback-wanted sessions on the other | 20:04 |
| russellb | so I'd call that a keeper | 20:04 |
| sdague | honestly, I really liked the friday free form | 20:04 |
| dhellmann | the extra focus on cross project sessions was good, and I actually got to attend some of the ops sessions this time and found those useful if under-attended | 20:04 |
| ttx | And find a way to limit attendance to the former | 20:04 |
| zaneb | +1 on Friday meetups | 20:04 |
| mikal | I liked Friday | 20:04 |
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| devananda | getting feedback from the ops on monday was helpful | 20:04 |
| annegentle | I should've set up a docs track | 20:04 |
| mikal | I would have liked fewer idle observes in Wed - Thu sessions though | 20:04 |
| ttx | one question is..; should we have Friday every day | 20:04 |
| fungi | i thought the infrastructure/quality assurance/release management conflict-free scheduling was awesome. fewest schedule conflicts for me yet | 20:04 |
| sdague | also, the dev lounge during tues keynotes was super productive | 20:04 |
| devananda | and def +1 to the friday meetups | 20:05 |
| ttx | in parallel with large-room discussions/feedback sessions | 20:05 |
| mikal | ttx: no, organized sessions work well for my people at least | 20:05 |
| anteaya | annegentle: +1 | 20:05 |
| devananda | ttx: IMO, no. | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | ttx: having friday every day would make it challenging for those of us who need to participate in multiple tracks | 20:05 |
| markmcclain | ttx: we do need organized time | 20:05 |
| mikal | ttx: also, Friday worked because the passive observers had left | 20:05 |
| russellb | what dhellmann said | 20:05 |
| mikal | ttx: it wouldn't have scaled to 200 people | 20:05 |
| anteaya | ttx no, to hard to find people | 20:05 |
| fungi | the organizers didn't expect tuesday morning dev lounge to be popular, hence the lack of caffeine until afternoon | 20:05 |
| sdague | yeh, the nova track I think benefited from some structure before friday | 20:05 |
| russellb | it's not just about # of people, it's schedule conflicts | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | ttx: that said, I could see doing it every afternoon instead of just all day one day | 20:05 |
| annegentle | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-summit-feedback | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | mikal: ++ | 20:06 |
| russellb | knowing when to be where to hit specific topics is useful on the super busy days | 20:06 |
| devananda | russellb: exactly | 20:06 |
| markmcclain | just not sure we could do a morning/afternoon split | 20:06 |
| markmcclain | only because of space constraints | 20:06 |
| sdague | I also think Free form works a lot better on the last day | 20:06 |
| russellb | but for any day where there's no major overlap, +1 to free form | 20:06 |
| markmcclain | sdague: ++ | 20:06 |
| sdague | because lots of lurkers leave | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | markmcclain: good point | 20:06 |
| devananda | sdague: ++ | 20:06 |
| anteaya | for me it is a brain change, it work best for one whole day | 20:06 |
| ttx | so my idea of running honeypot visible sessions in parallel to more private team workshops is not worthb being pursued ? | 20:06 |
| ttx | you'd rather keep it the way it is ? | 20:07 |
| sdague | ttx: honestly, I think the balance here was pretty solid | 20:07 |
| ttx | not sure we can scale "the way it is" in big-tent mode though | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I'm not sure I like the idea of a honeypot for this. Feels like the wrong attitude. | 20:07 |
| markmcclain | ttx: you willing to lead the nfv, lbaas, scheduling session? :) | 20:07 |
| annegentle | what did you all think of the cross-project sessions, effective? | 20:07 |
| sdague | markmcclain: also containers | 20:07 |
| devananda | the # of lurkers on thursday was a bit startling to me. it felt like more than half didn't have ATC badges | 20:07 |
| ttx | devananda: yes, half by my count too | 20:08 |
| markmcclain | sdague: good call that should be included too | 20:08 |
| devananda | annegentle: I thought they were good, but conflicted with a lot of conference tracks | 20:08 |
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| devananda | tuesday was the most conflicted day for me, but I may be the minority there | 20:08 |
| zaneb | ttx: in Vancouver will the main conference run for 3 or 4 days? or don't we know yet? | 20:08 |
| russellb | devananda: same here | 20:08 |
| sdague | devananda: I'm surprised that you still try to get to conference talks. I had to give those up entirely a few summits ago. | 20:08 |
| ttx | don't know yet, I think 4 | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | devananda: it was crowded thursday, but otherwise I didn't have any issues with non-atcs. Were there problems? | 20:08 |
| * jaypipes would have preferred to see half the number of sessions, but longer, more action-oriented sessions... | 20:09 | |
| russellb | customer meetings were all first half of the week, on the main/full/keynote days | 20:09 |
| fungi | i don;t recall attending conference tracks for at least the last several summits, so the cross-project sessions were quite helpful from my perspective | 20:09 |
| markmcclain | sdague: there are some summit sessions that cover interesting ground | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | sdague: I did, except I spoke this time around | 20:09 |
| sdague | markmcclain: I'm not saying they aren't interesting | 20:09 |
| russellb | but yeah, lots of really good main conf sessions too | 20:09 |
| devananda | sdague: I stopped trying to give main conference talks a while back ... | 20:09 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: yeah, I made the mistake of doing 4 conference sessions. | 20:09 |
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| ttx | and we ahve videos up ~ the next day | 20:09 |
| sdague | I'm just saying there is so much conflict... just had to give up that access | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: wow, you're a glutton :-) | 20:09 |
| jaypipes | yeah.. :( | 20:09 |
| markmcclain | ttx: yeah the videos make it easier to defer summit watching time until later | 20:09 |
| devananda | to me, it seems like a failure in our scheduling if the key dev/tc folks can't participate in the conference | 20:09 |
| annegentle | yeah I did 3. Silly me. | 20:09 |
| ttx | did 1, that's manageable | 20:10 |
| devananda | on the other hand, I might be failing and trying to do too much ... :) | 20:10 |
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| markmcclain | devananda: that I do agree with.. many conf attendees do want to see/interact with those leading the projects | 20:10 |
| sdague | devananda: the offset was supposed to help with that, but with ops on the offset day, it's another conflict | 20:10 |
| markmcclain | I wonder if that led to some of the extra folks we had around on Thursday | 20:11 |
| ttx | ok, if you have more feedback, don't hesitate to send me something. I'm in brainstorming mode for the next one. | 20:11 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:11 |
| ttx | I take the general feedback as "was good, do it again" | 20:11 |
| sdague | ttx: ++ | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | ttx: do you already have a note to schedule something on the ski slopes next time? | 20:11 |
| markmcclain | ttx: ++ | 20:11 |
| annegentle | it really was a great one | 20:11 |
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| russellb | dhellmann: ++ | 20:11 |
| zaneb | ttx: more whiteboards! | 20:11 |
| ttx | even more whiteboards. | 20:11 |
| fungi | i think mondays are proof that any time we expose a hole in the schedule, some part of our community will fill it | 20:11 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: ++ | 20:11 |
| sdague | fungi: true | 20:11 |
| ttx | #topic TC feedback on proposed bylaws changes | 20:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "TC feedback on proposed bylaws changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:12 | |
| devananda | also, random personal note -- arriving 5 days ahead of the conference made things sooo much easier | 20:12 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-tc/2014-November/000871.html | 20:12 |
| ttx | The proposed change is essentially what was described to us during the joint board/TC meeting in Paris | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | ttx: serious note, we should try to schedule a tc meeting at the next one. Not just the joint thing with the board. | 20:12 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: good idea | 20:12 |
| ttx | dhellmann: noted | 20:12 |
| russellb | dhellmann: as long as it doesn't extend the conf another day ... | 20:12 |
| ttx | some people suggested a PTL-only best-practice-sharing session too | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | russellb: no, we could do it at lunch or something | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ++ | 20:13 |
| ttx | bylwas: I still wish it would just remove much more detail to let us be more flexible in the future | 20:13 |
| mordred | devananda: ++ | 20:13 |
| annegentle | honestly those could be between summits on video chat | 20:13 |
| annegentle | but yes, PTLs would really benefit | 20:13 |
| ttx | bylaws: But I think we can make it work | 20:13 |
| ttx | As far as bigtent is concerned, the most annoying part of the proposed change would be the "TC approved release" terminology for designating the superset of projects the board can pick from | 20:13 |
| russellb | ttx: i wish the changes were in a proper patch series, instead of one big patch :-p | 20:13 |
| sdague | ttx: which of the 6 dropbox files are we looking at? | 20:13 |
| ttx | I think that if there are multiple trademark programs, we may want to have multiple, distinct TC approved supersets | 20:13 |
| annegentle | I'll definitely say I don't like the substitution wording for "integrated" | 20:14 |
| ttx | the largest of the redline is probably the most useful | 20:14 |
| ttx | sdague: ^ | 20:14 |
| ttx | That said, the current wording allows us to play with words: | 20:14 |
| ttx | << The Technical Committee shall designate a subset of the OpenStack Project an “OpenStack TC Approved Release” from time to time >> | 20:14 |
| ttx | Nothing says that “OpenStack TC Approved Release” is unique :) | 20:14 |
| markmcclain | I do like the flexibility | 20:14 |
| jogo | I am not keen on codifying the notion of a single release | 20:15 |
| ttx | so I think we can make the proposed wording work | 20:15 |
| sdague | ttx: yeh, seems better than current | 20:15 |
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| devananda | ttx: it sounds like that might be the thing that our horizontal teams agree to work on, or something totally different -- and the TC gets to choose. | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | jogo: I didn't read it as a single release as much as a single set of things we would want to apply the trademark to (vs. those we wouldn't) | 20:15 |
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| jogo | dhellmann: perhaps | 20:15 |
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| ttx | yes, I think the new wording is fuzzy enough to give us some legroom for future change, while being compatible with current situation | 20:16 |
| ttx | so I'm not sure it's worth us objecting to the proposed wording | 20:16 |
| sdague | I think the important point is to give it enough flexibility that we feel like we can honestly provide some interpretation as things change | 20:16 |
| sdague | because we're definitely in odd binds with current bylaws being way too specific | 20:16 |
| devananda | the thing whcih stands out to me: trademark-designated things can only be removed from that grouping with board's consent. Which, honestly, doesn't seem bad to me | 20:17 |
| ttx | sdague: I fought to remove more from it, so that less is written in immutable stone, but wasn't more successful than that | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | I'd like to see a draft of the separate rules for adding/removing projects from the trademark set | 20:17 |
| annegentle | well it shouldn't use the TC acronym for one. I'd at least prefer that point of clarity | 20:17 |
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| sdague | ttx: I can live with that | 20:17 |
| ttx | devananda: actually, that's not exact | 20:17 |
| annegentle | they could change it to TCup or something. Seems sloppy in a legal doc | 20:17 |
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| dhellmann | annegentle: yeah, I thought the use of the abbreviation there was odd, too | 20:17 |
| ttx | "trademark-designated things can only be removed from that grouping by following a procedure" | 20:17 |
| mordred | annegentle: TCup sounds too much like teacup | 20:17 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: heh, we're the word nerds :) | 20:18 |
| ttx | devananda: procedure which remains to be defined and updated, outside the bylaws | 20:18 |
| annegentle | mordred: it's tempest in a teacup | 20:18 |
| devananda | ttx: I see | 20:18 |
| ttx | deva__: this is actually much more flexible | 20:18 |
| annegentle | anyway my point is, no TC, spell out Technical Committee | 20:18 |
| annegentle | then "approved" -- what does that mean? Voted upon? tested? | 20:18 |
| sdague | annegentle: yeh, that's valid | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: we need t-shirts | 20:18 |
| annegentle | heh | 20:18 |
| jogo | the proposed changes, remove the non commercial trademark clause. so the board can change non commercial usage at will now | 20:18 |
| ttx | Anyway, if you have further feedback, please send it to the -tc list or directly to Mark Radcliffe | 20:19 |
| jogo | that scares me | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | jogo: what section is that? | 20:19 |
| * dhellmann is having a hard time reading this redline | 20:19 | |
| jogo | Appendix 8, 1.1 | 20:19 |
| sdague | annegentle: I think approved should be vague on purpose, because the criteria for that has adjusted over time, and may in the future | 20:19 |
| ttx | jogo: I think we retain the definition of "the OpenStack project" | 20:19 |
| annegentle | sdague: ok | 20:19 |
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| ttx | which is arguably a default trademark use case | 20:19 |
| annegentle | I'll send my input to the openstack-tc ML | 20:19 |
| mordred | sdague: ++ | 20:20 |
| mordred | sdague: I like that the criteria is de facto "whatever the TC says" | 20:20 |
| sdague | annegentle: because we don't really want to build a quorum of people that sign up to the foundation website to vote to about details of what our release process is | 20:20 |
| ttx | jogo: but you're right in saying that by dropping trademark policy from the bylaws (a good change) we throw the baby with the bath water | 20:20 |
| ttx | the baby being the community usage of the trademark | 20:20 |
| jogo | ttx: as an individual member I will be voting against these changes as is | 20:20 |
| jogo | ttx: because don't throw out the baby | 20:21 |
| sdague | jogo: which means you are voting for OpenStack being defined as Swift and Nova? | 20:21 |
| ttx | that doesn't "scare" me because I don't see them going against the TC for its usage of the trademark (or rather, I'd like to see them try) | 20:21 |
| annegentle | yeah I think that "determined by Technical Committee" is fair and flexible, both of which we want | 20:21 |
| ttx | but that's a valid remark | 20:21 |
| jogo | sdague: that is not the current definition actually | 20:21 |
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| mordred | jogo: it really is | 20:21 |
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| mordred | jogo: but I support you in your ability to vote no | 20:22 |
| mordred | because democracy! | 20:22 |
| jogo | mordred: that is what the existing commercial trademarks are around the ones that are in the bylaws not the ones outside of them | 20:22 |
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| ttx | #info jogo says it would be better if we could keep the community right to use the trademark in the bylaws | 20:23 |
| jogo | ttx: I don't imagine the board removing the non commercial usage, but then why remove that clause? | 20:23 |
| jogo | ttx: and in a place that needs a general vote to change | 20:23 |
| ttx | jogo: they remogve all the trademark policy from the bylwas, to be able to change it more often ? | 20:23 |
| jogo | ttx: so remove all but non commercial | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | right, that was my understanding, was they moved the whole thing to a separate document | 20:24 |
| sdague | I think at the end of the day we have to have bylaws that assume good intent, because if we build bylaws as assuming bad actors we just crustify ourselves into a place where we get stuck by the bylaws from evolving the community the ways the community wants to evolve | 20:24 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: I think I agree with that | 20:24 |
| jogo | sdague: is assume good intent a legal concept? because that is what this is about | 20:24 |
| annegentle | so a university or public/govt cloud wants to say they run an OpenStack cloud. Does anything in this revision prevent that? | 20:24 |
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| ttx | jogo: I'll send that feedback -- maybe it's possible to now throw the baby with the bath water | 20:25 |
| sdague | jogo: it's assume that the board isn't the enemy of the community, and that we safe guard not through specific protections in the bylaws but by frank communication with the board about what we think is important | 20:25 |
| dhellmann | jogo: he's saying we need to assume the board has good intent | 20:25 |
| jogo | ttx: thanks, I haven't read the entire change, but when I do I will respond to your thread | 20:26 |
| sdague | and knowing a bunch of board members, many that are TC members as well, I feel pretty comfortable with that | 20:26 |
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| dhellmann | annegentle: because the univ and govt are non-commercial? | 20:26 |
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| ttx | OK, let's move on... | 20:26 |
| devananda | ttx: if not there, where are the trademark terms being moved to? this deletion covers more than just the commercial or individual use of the product | 20:26 |
| ttx | if you have further remarks, reply to thread | 20:26 |
| devananda | bah. nvm :) | 20:26 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: yes, best examlpe I could think of off the top of my head | 20:27 |
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| devananda | jogo: thanks for pointing that out -- i now share your concern | 20:27 |
| devananda | jogo: or at least have a similar one | 20:27 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: good example, but I think they'd be covered by using community code or a commercial distro | 20:27 |
| jogo | devananda: there be dragons in by laws | 20:27 |
| ttx | #topic Housekeeping changes | 20:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Housekeeping changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:27 | |
| ttx | There are 3 housekeeping changes in the pipe -- I'll approve them post-meeting unless you object to them now | 20:27 |
| ttx | * Trove is using trove-specs for blueprints and specs (https://review.openstack.org/133363) | 20:27 |
| ttx | * Update Zaqar's PTL information (https://review.openstack.org/134073) | 20:27 |
| ttx | * Add oslo.context to the Oslo program (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135094/) | 20:27 |
| ttx | if you object, post a -1 there to block fast-track | 20:28 |
| ttx | #topic Stalled changes | 20:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Stalled changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:28 | |
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| sdague | so, I think I've said this before. But can we assume fast approve on these in the future, and just let people propose a revert if they don't like it? | 20:28 |
| ttx | We have two stalled changes (both proposed by mordred) in the pipe: | 20:28 |
| * mordred spews fire | 20:28 | |
| zaneb | hmm, Zaqar is not the only project with out-od-date PTL information | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | ttx: could we get an election official to certify the zaqar ptl change, as a matter of process? | 20:28 |
| mordred | anteaya: ^^ | 20:28 |
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| sdague | zaneb: are there other patches? | 20:29 |
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| russellb | zaneb: care to fix? :) | 20:29 |
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| anteaya | sure | 20:29 |
| devananda | would it be better to have the election official(s) propose PTL changes to the gov repo, as a matter of course? | 20:29 |
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| zaneb | sdague: I haven't looked, I just know I'm not the Heat PTL any more ;) | 20:29 |
| russellb | devananda: +1 | 20:29 |
| mordred | devananda: that's not a terrible idea | 20:29 |
| sdague | devananda: that seems sensible to me | 20:29 |
| mordred | devananda: ++ | 20:29 |
| ttx | I hear sdague arguing for more discretion to the chair, and dhellmann arguing for less | 20:29 |
| mordred | ttx: I think the chair should have both more and less discretion | 20:29 |
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| mordred | ttx: depending on whether I agree with him or not | 20:30 |
| ttx | I'll try to continue doing grey | 20:30 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I just don't want to have to go find the election results myself. If anteaya says +1 then I'm OK with you approving it. | 20:30 |
| sdague | mordred: well it's tracked, and it's revertable, so more discretion seems fine | 20:30 |
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| ttx | do we all agree that I should have approved all those without bothering you with them ? | 20:30 |
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| ttx | #undo | 20:30 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x20af810> | 20:30 |
| sdague | we can flog the chair if it turns out he/she becomes a bad actor | 20:30 |
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| sdague | it's not like we won't have a public record of it | 20:30 |
| ttx | I'm fine either way :) | 20:31 |
| dhellmann | I don't see any reason for us to rush approvals on things like election results. The others I'm OK with. | 20:31 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ok. | 20:31 |
| mordred | WOAH the meeting bot can undo things | 20:31 |
| mordred | ttx: you just removed a topic from the meeting minutes | 20:31 |
| fungi | it's an awesome feature, yes | 20:31 |
| ttx | mordred: you still have a lot to learn! | 20:31 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: +1 with link to results | 20:31 |
| * mordred mind blown | 20:31 | |
| annegentle | w | 20:31 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: thank you | 20:31 |
| annegentle | we're topicless? | 20:31 |
| ttx | ok, let'(s move on :) | 20:31 |
| ttx | #topic Stalled changes | 20:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Stalled changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:31 | |
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| ttx | annegentle: it will all work fine in the end | 20:32 |
| ttx | We have two stalled changes (both proposed by mordred) in the pipe: | 20:32 |
| ttx | * Remove support for vendor extensions from our code (https://review.openstack.org/122968) | 20:32 |
| ttx | * Add a docs environment to the testing interface (https://review.openstack.org/119875) | 20:32 |
| vishy | o/ sorry guys forgot that dst hit while i was in europe | 20:32 |
| ttx | mordred: what are your plans for those ? | 20:32 |
| anteaya | I'll propose the out of date ptl changes | 20:32 |
| ttx | should we mark them abandoned until you feel strongly enough about them to revive them | 20:32 |
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| ttx | ? | 20:32 |
| ttx | anteaya: thx | 20:32 |
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| ttx | #action anteaya to propose "official" PTL changes | 20:33 |
| mordred | ttx: docs interface was all about jeblair's concern, and I don't remember where we got to on that | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I thought we agreed we didn't want the docs environment change? | 20:33 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: we did, but mordred wans't around? | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | or maybe to reword it as optional but not the way the CI system would run | 20:33 |
| mordred | ah. if we did, I can abondon that one then | 20:33 |
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| dhellmann | mordred: no, see my comment from 22 oct -- "we're saying that this specific interface ... is optional" | 20:34 |
| mordred | for the vendor one, I need to read and respond to comments, sorry I have not done that yet | 20:34 |
| dhellmann | so I think we wanted a reword on that one | 20:34 |
| mordred | k. let me deal with review commends on both | 20:34 |
| mordred | which is easier when I'm not drinking in argentina | 20:34 |
| ttx | mordred: so.. abandon the docs one, keep the other open ? | 20:34 |
| mordred | ttx: let me deal with both | 20:34 |
| mordred | Ill do that this week | 20:34 |
| ttx | famous last words | 20:34 |
| * mordred stabs ttx with a wet cat | 20:34 | |
| ttx | ouch!ouch! | 20:35 |
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| * ttx distracts mordred by switching topic again | 20:35 | |
| ttx | #topic Next steps in project structure reform | 20:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Next steps in project structure reform (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:35 | |
| ttx | We need to make progress on this. I invite all members to start smallgroup discussions with their TC peers to seek alignment, as suggested by markmcclain in Paris | 20:35 |
| ttx | We had a hangout last week with Anne, Sean, Devananda and Mark last week, notes here: | 20:35 |
| sdague | wasn't it markmc ? | 20:35 |
| mikal | We don't want to schedule speed dating? | 20:35 |
| annegentle | can we have another one this week? | 20:36 |
| mikal | You want people to self organize? | 20:36 |
| ttx | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/project-restructure-hangouts | 20:36 |
| annegentle | mikal, you and me. we're the starting set | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: if we do, please post when it will be to the tc ML so I can participate | 20:36 |
| ttx | I'm fine with not attending every single one of them. Will organize a new one for this week though | 20:36 |
| annegentle | 26 hours from now perhaps? | 20:36 |
| ttx | Sidenote: jeblair doesn't really want us to standardize on Google hangout for those, I guess smallgroups should pick whatever works best for them | 20:36 |
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| anteaya | if you use asterisk we can record them | 20:36 |
| ttx | During past week discussion there was strong convergence on the idea of a base compute projectgroup | 20:37 |
| anteaya | the sip app has a recording feature | 20:37 |
| ttx | There was much less convergence on barriers to entry into the big tent (some people want none, some people want a basic "are you one of us" check, some people want a stronger "are you useful" assessment) | 20:37 |
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| sdague | anteaya: I'm not sure recording was the goal | 20:37 |
| ttx | Personally, I now see how horizontal teams can survive the big tent (by resetting expectations of support for all" openstack" projects) | 20:37 |
| anteaya | sorry, you don't have to either | 20:37 |
| sdague | as it was more about letting people think out loud | 20:37 |
| annegentle | yeah please not recorded for these | 20:37 |
| ttx | I still need to work on solutions for the design summit and trademark checks | 20:37 |
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| annegentle | it's for thinking with words that aren't written down | 20:37 |
| ttx | I reached out to the Foundation staff in charge of those trademark checks, to see what could work for us there | 20:37 |
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| ttx | it's mostly an etherpad with a parallel unrecorded chat | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I'm a little uncomfortable with us saying it is ok for cross-project groups to only deal with the compute group of projects | 20:38 |
| ttx | but like I said, we can use whatever works for the people meetings | 20:38 |
| devananda | ttx: fwiw, i thought that format worked just fine for an informal, unrecorded, idea-sharing session | 20:38 |
| ttx | dhellmann: that is not what we say | 20:38 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: ok, I guess I need that clarified then because that's what I keep reading | 20:39 |
| ttx | devananda: I'll let you fight jeblair when he is back | 20:39 |
| devananda | :) | 20:39 |
| fungi | devananda: you can also fight me on it now if you like ;) | 20:39 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: we say that the cross-project teams should pick what they support | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ok, that feels equivalent | 20:39 |
| ttx | and no longer HAVE TO support the whole "integrated release | 20:39 |
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| * devananda sharpens his wet noodle in preparation to fight with fungi | 20:39 | |
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| dhellmann | I'll pick on annegentle and say we shouldn't have *a* documentation team if they aren't going to support everyone in some way | 20:40 |
| ttx | dhellmann: currently we have tension because the TC adds stuff, and the horizontal teams HAVE TO support them all | 20:40 |
| vishy | reading scrollback: just a little note about the bylaws changes. The reason things like Trademark are being pulled is that it is extremely difficult to make bylaws changes because a huge percentage of our membership doesn’t vote. We need to get stuff that we are iterating on (like trademark policy) out of the bylaws so that we can change it. There is a very real chance we can’t pass even this bylaws change because we d | 20:40 |
| vishy | get enough votes. We want to prevent that in the future. | 20:40 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: if support is "reviews and automation tooling" | 20:40 |
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| dhellmann | annegentle: yes, that would be enough in my mind | 20:40 |
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| fungi | is it really "allowing" cross-project teams to determine their scope, or merely acknowledging that this is what they actually do anyway? | 20:40 |
| sdague | fungi: I think it's putting a stamp on what is actually happening now | 20:40 |
| devananda | it seemed to me that there was agreement that cross-project teams (like docs) should produce tools and advice, and may choose what projects to directly support with those tools | 20:40 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: the change says: there is no expectation of direct support anymore. Horizontal teams help everyone, but do not have to directly handle more than they can support | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: but that's more than "choosing which projects to support", which gives you the option of, for example, not describing how to install something in the install guide | 20:41 |
| russellb | annegentle: dhellmann right, that's what i would expect ... horizontal teams empowering projects to get that task done with tools/etc | 20:41 |
| dkehn | /n | 20:41 |
| annegentle | it's still a tough sell to a common docs team member, "Hey how about you keep an eye on these 20+ repos to see if any changes affect docs" | 20:41 |
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| dhellmann | russellb: empowering is a good term | 20:41 |
| annegentle | so reviews are tough | 20:41 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I suspect that's because we have differing ideas of what "supporting" means | 20:41 |
| sdague | dhellmann: so I think that's the you can't have it both ways thing | 20:41 |
| zaneb | russellb: ++ | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: no, that's not what I'm saying -- it's up to the projects to come to you with those changes | 20:41 |
| ttx | we provide tools and advice for everyone, for sure | 20:41 |
| annegentle | but yes, the idea is to hand over the centralization | 20:41 |
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| mordred | devananda: sorry, stepped away for a sec | 20:41 |
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| annegentle | more self-service, bring your own writers/words | 20:42 |
| anteaya | empowering requires a hefty use of the word no | 20:42 |
| mordred | devananda: google hangouts exclude some of teh TC from participating | 20:42 |
| mordred | devananda: which is very rude | 20:42 |
| clarkb | doesn't hangouts also limit the number of participants | 20:42 |
| clarkb | which is also rude | 20:42 |
| annegentle | heh anteaya well dhellmann was trying to help define what the no could be | 20:42 |
| * russellb can provide a google-hangout equivalent that's entirely peer-to-peer | 20:42 | |
| russellb | and no account required | 20:42 |
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| mordred | as long as it doesn't require people to install non-free software | 20:42 |
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| dhellmann | right, annegentle and her team should not have to write everything but I don't like that they could possibly turn away a project who does want to come contribute (not that I think they would) | 20:42 |
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| russellb | just a webrtc capable browser | 20:42 |
| anteaya | then we have to use it, whatever the defition is | 20:42 |
| devananda | mordred: Ididn't say we should only use hangouts :) none the less, I personally found the format acceptable | 20:43 |
| sdague | clarkb: beyond 4 or 5 it's not really a discussion anyway | 20:43 |
| annegentle | webrtc ftw | 20:43 |
| mordred | beause that is a non-starter for a non-zero number of our members | 20:43 |
| anteaya | and no tends not to be popular | 20:43 |
| sdague | russellb: ++ for rtc solution | 20:43 |
| devananda | mordred: and none of those members had expressed an interest in that particular meeting time | 20:43 |
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| sdague | and back to policy | 20:43 |
| mordred | devananda: sure. just saying | 20:43 |
| devananda | mordred: sure | 20:43 |
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| ttx | russellb: I'll take your webrtc solution | 20:44 |
| russellb | xlnt | 20:44 |
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| russellb | i can give folks info out-of-band | 20:44 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I think we are on the same page actually | 20:44 |
| sdague | russellb: if you could post instructions somewhere, that would be great | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | russellb: that looks like a typo, is it the name of some app? | 20:44 |
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| * mordred embraces all of russellb's solutions | 20:44 | |
| * ttx puts dhellmann on the next brainwashing group | 20:44 | |
| dhellmann | ttx: ok, maybe it's a phrasing issue | 20:44 |
| russellb | dhellmann: which looked like a typo? | 20:44 |
| ttx | dhellmann: example with release management | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | xlnt? | 20:44 |
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| russellb | oh, no ... excellent | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | oh, heh | 20:45 |
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| annegentle | gotta go, will catch up online | 20:45 |
| ttx | dhellmann: We would provide tools for everyone, and define process. But we would only actually push tags and guarantee a common release on the same day for a subset of projects, not all the big tent. | 20:45 |
| * dhellmann thought it was some x11 app | 20:45 | |
| russellb | nah :) | 20:45 |
| dhellmann | ttx: sure, that's what I do within oslo, too :-) | 20:45 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: ok, I think we're closer to agreement that I feared | 20:45 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: "support" is confusing since it applies to both cases | 20:46 |
| dhellmann | right | 20:46 |
| sdague | dhellmann: I do think the install guide is a good example though. Is the docs team empowered to build the base install guide that they think provides the crispest user experience, or do we need a giant choose your own adventure that includes any projects that comes forward. We do have to give some trust to horizontal teams to do sensible things for the users. | 20:46 |
| ttx | I prefer "directly handle" vs. "empowering" | 20:46 |
| dhellmann | I think in one of these patches I had "provide tools and guidance" instead of "supports" | 20:46 |
| ttx | horizontal teams empower everyone in the big tent, and may opt to directly handle a few | 20:46 |
| russellb | +1 | 20:46 |
| sdague | ttx: yep, I think that's solid | 20:47 |
| dhellmann | sdague: sure, I would expect some choices, but if the project doesn't go in "the" install guide, then they need to make it possible to have other guides where the info can land | 20:47 |
| sdague | dhellmann: sure | 20:47 |
| ttx | rather than "horizontal teams have to directly handle everyone in the tent (so better keep it small)" | 20:47 |
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| sdague | I think that's the empowering bit | 20:47 |
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| dhellmann | just as infra doesn't ask too many questions about the suitability of a project when we add it, I don't think the other cross project teams should be in a position of vetoing another team's goals | 20:47 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | sdague: right, it just wasn't clear from some of the other phrasing that "empowering" was actually the goal | 20:48 |
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| ttx | so what about the limits to the big tent... who is for "no barrier at all", who is for "are you one of us" basic checks, who is for "are you actually useful" checks | 20:48 |
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| mordred | I'm for "are you one of us" | 20:48 |
| sdague | dhellmann: right, I think we're agreed. As long as they have a way that Docs content from one of these projects has a place to live, and a way to be found, even if not in the main install guide, that's the goal | 20:48 |
| mordred | because otherwise we're just github | 20:48 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: ++ | 20:49 |
| ttx | I know annegentle was leaning towards "are you actually useful" to avoid 30 different chef recipes repos | 20:49 |
| mordred | well - I think "are you one of us" | 20:49 |
| dhellmann | yeah, we need some sort of community sense at least | 20:49 |
| devananda | mordred: right. 1 = github. 3 = TC making a quality-assessment. | 20:49 |
| sdague | "are you one of us" is pretty nebulous | 20:49 |
| anteaya | I think useful is important | 20:49 |
| * ttx thinks we at the very least need "are you one of us" (mission and 4 opens check) | 20:49 | |
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| mordred | impplies that you're willing to listen to the TC when we tell you to work with the other chef repos | 20:49 |
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| sdague | got more specifics about one of us/ | 20:49 |
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| sdague | ? | 20:49 |
| dhellmann | if we're going to support competition, I don't see how we can object to some competition and allow others | 20:49 |
| devananda | dhellmann: ++ | 20:49 |
| * jaypipes is for "are you one of us". | 20:49 | |
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| zaneb | mordred, jaypipes ++ | 20:50 |
| anteaya | if I am going to spend time on something I wuold at least like to feel it is useful | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | I'm not sure I entirely like that, but there it is | 20:50 |
| ttx | sdague: at least vaguely part of the openstack mission, and following the 4 opens | 20:50 |
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| jaypipes | as in "are you aligned with the OpenStack mission", but not "are you a member of The Cabal" | 20:50 |
| mordred | gabba gabba hey gabba we accept you we accept you, gabba gabba hey gabba we accept you one of us! | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | ttx: "4 opens"? | 20:50 |
| sdague | because I'd like whatever definition to be crisp enough that project-config reviewers have the guidance to approve these without TC voting on everyone | 20:50 |
| * dhellmann feels slow today and blames the cold | 20:50 | |
| mordred | sdague: ++ | 20:50 |
| ttx | dhellmann: open development, community, design, source | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | k | 20:50 |
| anteaya | sdague: ++ | 20:50 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: ++ to the 4 opens. I added that to my governance patch. | 20:50 |
| devananda | sdague: ++ | 20:50 |
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| ttx | sdague: actaully I'd like us to delegate that tyo some community council | 20:51 |
| mestery | ttx: ++ to the 4 opens, I like those. | 20:51 |
| fungi | also that's one of the ways we can keep the load on the infra team and systems from going beyond absurd into ludicrous | 20:51 |
| anteaya | ttx delegate what? | 20:51 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:51 |
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| ttx | A community council could check for "are you one of us", the same way they could vet openstack-planet additions or openstack meeting schedule requests | 20:52 |
| anteaya | if we don't have a clear direction coming out of this for how to approave a new repo patch, what is the point? | 20:52 |
| jaypipes | anteaya: the "are you in openstack/ code namespace" decision | 20:52 |
| ttx | (shameless plug for the gerrit-powered-agenda) | 20:52 |
| jaypipes | s/are you/can you be/ | 20:52 |
| zaneb | I think the test should aim to provide mutual benefit. So projects that we can contribute something to other than the "OpenStack" name, and which will contribute something back too | 20:52 |
| anteaya | I thought that's what this was | 20:52 |
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| ttx | ok, so it feels like there is at least growing consensus for a "are you one of us" barrier | 20:53 |
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| anteaya | a committee has to apply criteria for every repo? that is going to slow things down | 20:53 |
| mordred | anteaya: no, I think the TC wants to not be involved in every repo | 20:53 |
| markmcclain | mordred: ++ | 20:53 |
| anteaya | great | 20:53 |
| anteaya | we create at least one per day | 20:54 |
| sdague | mordred: right, but ttx said a different committee would be | 20:54 |
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| ttx | I still need to work out a solution for trademark checks, I know openstack/* makes some worried | 20:54 |
| david-lyle | so one committee to decide who's in the community and another to decide the direction? seems like that could get out of sync quickly | 20:54 |
| mordred | sdague: I did not see that | 20:54 |
| ttx | that community council would have a delegation from the TC | 20:54 |
| anteaya | so whatever the outcome we need to be able to apply criteria and approve patches | 20:54 |
| mordred | I do not agree with that | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | david-lyle: ++ | 20:54 |
| sdague | <ttx> sdague: actaully I'd like us to delegate that tyo some community council | 20:54 |
| mordred | it seems like if we don't have an idea of if you're one of us enough that anteaya can apply it, we don't know what we're actually talking about | 20:54 |
| vishy | we should probably also require the cla and apache license | 20:54 |
| ttx | david-lyle: it's not a separate committee | 20:54 |
| ttx | david-lyle: it's a delegation so that we don't rely on TC members for everything | 20:55 |
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| anteaya | mordred: thanks for hearing me | 20:55 |
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| dhellmann | vishy: good point | 20:55 |
| david-lyle | ttx: so a subset of the TC? | 20:55 |
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| mordred | vishy: actually had some chats about opening up on the apache license part in the "one of us" section | 20:55 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: i thought your wording already required CLA and Apache license | 20:55 |
| mordred | apache license is only really important if we're intending on your code being something we release | 20:55 |
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| jaypipes | vishy: my proposal specifically lists the license and the DCO as requirements. | 20:55 |
| sdague | vishy: right, agreed, things like that are crisp and delegatable | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | devananda: I know it does the license, I don't remember about the cla | 20:55 |
| * mordred EXPLCITLY opposes codifying apache license | 20:55 | |
| fungi | we definitely already include code under compatible licenses which are not exactly apache | 20:56 |
| ttx | david-lyle: or a group of people that we would delegate autrhority to (but we would still have oversight on) | 20:56 |
| vishy | mordred: i think both the cla and apache license is important for company contributions | 20:56 |
| mordred | because it will make life hell for infra | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | devananda: the smaller change probably does, since that's there now | 20:56 |
| mordred | no | 20:56 |
| devananda | mordred: oh, right | 20:56 |
| mordred | there are things infra does that have uptreams | 20:56 |
| vishy | one of the ideas of the big tent is to make it easier for companies to put people on it | 20:56 |
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| mordred | but I guarantee that work is done as part of openstack and is one of us | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | mordred: don't the bylaws say we have to use the apache license? | 20:56 |
| vishy | mordred: but that is not openstack stuff | 20:56 |
| sdague | dhellmann: not the new bylaws | 20:56 |
| devananda | dhellmann: for what we release | 20:56 |
| mordred | dhellmann: only for code we release as openstack | 20:56 |
| vishy | if it is upstreamed | 20:56 |
| vishy | it is upstream | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | ok, sure | 20:56 |
| mordred | vishy: for example | 20:56 |
| mordred | we would like to rewrite the irc bots using a framework that is GPL | 20:57 |
| sdague | ok, so I think the license thing can probably be detailed out out of band | 20:57 |
| mordred | the bot code will be openstack-infra code | 20:57 |
| ttx | mordred: current idea is to require "open source", and only require apache on the "open,stack TC approved release" stuff | 20:57 |
| mordred | ttx: yes | 20:57 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, I think we can make that distinction easily | 20:57 |
| vishy | ttx: ok i’m good with that | 20:57 |
| mordred | ttx: that would be fine | 20:57 |
| devananda | mordred: wait. infra isn't under openstack/* | 20:57 |
| sdague | ttx: ++ | 20:57 |
| mordred | devananda: sure. I just want to be very clear with our wording | 20:57 |
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| mordred | so taht we don't accidentally say somethin gwe don't mean | 20:57 |
| ttx | devananda: it would still be part of "the openstack project" | 20:57 |
| mordred | yaj | 20:58 |
| devananda | mordred: if we're ONLY saying this stuff applies to openstack/* then I actually don't see the problem | 20:58 |
| mordred | yah | 20:58 |
| sdague | mordred: yeh, I think we're still reasonable humans mostly | 20:58 |
| mordred | sdague: yes. I believe we all are | 20:58 |
| mordred | I mean | 20:58 |
| devananda | openstack-*/* is different | 20:58 |
| mordred | except me | 20:58 |
| ttx | OK, we are running out of time. | 20:58 |
| anteaya | devananda: not necesarily | 20:58 |
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| annegentle | ok back | 20:58 |
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| anteaya | the openstack-* spaces all have reasons for being, only certian repos can go in there | 20:58 |
| ttx | I'll follow up to get a few of you in a meeting later this week, for a smallergroup chat | 20:58 |
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| ttx | we'll put notes on the same etherpad | 20:59 |
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| ttx | I'm under the impression we are mostly agreeing, just nee dto talk more about it to make sure we agree on the same thing | 20:59 |
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| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:59 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:59 | |
| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 20:59 |
| ttx | annegentle and I will discuss midcycle meetups during the next meeting, you can tag along | 20:59 |
| ttx | spoiler: they are evil! | 20:59 |
| devananda | a while back, I had started suggesting that we create more top level things, like openstack-ops/*, rather than add all the chef things to openstack/ | 21:00 |
| annegentle | hahaha | 21:00 |
| zehicle | just a heads up that the DefCore/Refstack team is working on defining capability groups for Icehouse and will need review/help | 21:00 |
| dhellmann | devananda: ++ | 21:00 |
| devananda | then I forgot to bring that up again for a while | 21:00 |
| ttx | #info DefCore/Refstack team is working on defining capability groups for Icehouse and will need review/help | 21:00 |
| zehicle | thanks | 21:00 |
| devananda | but I think that might make some of the lines about "are you one of us" clearer by having clearer buckets of "us-ness" | 21:00 |
| ttx | #action ttx to set up new smallgroup meting to progress on converging toward a clear proposal on bigtent | 21:00 |
| dhellmann | devananda: oooo, taxonomy :-) | 21:01 |
| david-lyle | your us-ity | 21:01 |
| markmcclain | ttx: Wanted to give everyone a warning that I will be starting a thread on the ML to split Neutron into two repos with seperate core teams | 21:01 |
| devananda | markmcclain: ++ | 21:01 |
| sdague | markmcclain: +3 | 21:01 |
| mestery | markmcclain: ++ | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | markmcclain: split how? | 21:01 |
| russellb | markmcclain: this for the advanced services split? | 21:01 |
| ttx | #info upcopming thread on the ML to split Neutron into two repos with seperate core teams | 21:01 |
| markmcclain | russellb: yes | 21:01 |
| russellb | separate from the driver split.. | 21:01 |
| russellb | k | 21:01 |
| ttx | ok, time is up | 21:01 |
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| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 18 21:01:54 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| mestery | russellb: Yes, driver thing is a spin-out, not a split :) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-11-18-20.03.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-11-18-20.03.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-11-18-20.03.log.html | 21:02 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone | 21:02 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: Layer 2/3 focues repo and an Adv Services Repo (Layer 4-7) | 21:02 |
| dhellmann | markmcclain: +1 | 21:02 |
| annegentle | nice markmcclain | 21:02 |
| ttx | dhellmann, morganfainberg, notmyname, eglynn, nikhil_k, thingee, asalkeld, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ? | 21:02 |
| annegentle | can I do that for docs next? | 21:02 |
| mestery | o/ | 21:02 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:02 |
| asalkeld | o/ | 21:02 |
| nikhil_k | o/ | 21:02 |
| eglynn | o/ | 21:02 |
| * annegentle asks hopefully | 21:02 | |
| dhellmann | markmcclain: the 4-7 could maybe even be more than one repo | 21:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:02 |
| russellb | mestery: yeah, i need to review where the proposal for the driver part is headed ... | 21:02 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 18 21:02:54 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:02 |
| devananda | ttx: i feel sad that i'm not on your project meeting ping list | 21:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:02 | |
| mestery | russellb: Ack, me too, I'm still catching up a bit from coming back from paternity leave :) | 21:02 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:02 |
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| ttx | deva__: oh! my fault | 21:03 |
| ttx | devananda: added to template | 21:03 |
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| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 21:03 |
| mikal | Hi | 21:03 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:03 |
| ttx | #topic Summary of 1:1 meeting syncs | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Summary of 1:1 meeting syncs (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:03 | |
| ttx | We had a number of 1:1 syncs today, you can see the log here if you're interested: | 21:03 |
| ttx | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2014/ptl_sync.2014-11-18-08.58.html | 21:03 |
| ttx | mostly about setting release liaisons and turning autokick | 21:04 |
| ttx | as well as testing the new 10-min format | 21:04 |
| morganfainberg | o/ here too | 21:04 |
| ttx | #link http://status.openstack.org/release/ | 21:04 |
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| SlickNik | o/ | 21:04 |
| dhellmann | did everyone go over the 10 minutes, or was that just a few of us? | 21:04 |
| ttx | now shows Kilo release status | 21:04 |
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| ttx | just a few | 21:04 |
| ttx | most stayed within the alloted 10min | 21:04 |
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| * dhellmann endeavors to do better next week | 21:05 | |
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| ttx | #topic Turn this meeting into a PTL+CPL meeting ("cross-project meeting") | 21:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Turn this meeting into a PTL+CPL meeting ("cross-project meeting") (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:05 | |
| ttx | So... As part of a big plan to scale out PTLs and our project leadership in general, we introduced the concept of Cross-Project Liaisons (CPLs) during the Juno cycle | 21:05 |
| ttx | Release management liaisons are just one type of those, and I don't think this meeting should be limited to them | 21:05 |
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| ttx | This is our only cross-project meeting, and looking back at what we discussed here over the last cycle it was going far beyond release management | 21:05 |
| ttx | I think it's time to turn this meeting into a true cross-project weekly meeting, not keep it release-cycle-management-oriented | 21:05 |
| mestery | ++, Adding in more CPLs makes sense to me | 21:06 |
| ttx | Inviting PTLs and all CPLs with an open agenda | 21:06 |
| ttx | And maybe even rotating chairs (release management PTL, Oslo PTL, Infra PTL, QA PTL, Docs PTL..) | 21:06 |
| morganfainberg | ++ | 21:06 |
| * ttx opened trap | 21:06 | |
| annegentle | heh | 21:06 |
| ttx | let's see who falls into it | 21:06 |
| mestery | ++ to rotating chairs | 21:06 |
| eglynn | ttx: do you mean *all* liaisons from all projects? (oslo, docs, qa, api-wg ...) | 21:06 |
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| * mestery falls into the trap | 21:06 | |
| * fungi saw the trap for what it was | 21:06 | |
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| * mestery thinks we should share the joys of chairing this meeting :) | 21:07 | |
| ttx | eglynn: I want us to be able to discuss cross-project topics, and I see CPLs as the cross-project specialists | 21:07 |
| * morganfainberg let someone else fall into the trap. | 21:07 | |
| dhellmann | mestery: you can have my share of that joy | 21:07 |
| mestery | dhellmann: lol | 21:07 |
| ttx | so I would be very happy if they showed up | 21:07 |
| annegentle | I like the all liaisons idea. | 21:07 |
| mtreinish | mestery: I just know when it was my turn to chair it, I'd forget | 21:07 |
| eglynn | ttx: that's potentially a *lot* of people | 21:07 |
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| eglynn | ttx: ~4/5 per project times how many projects? | 21:08 |
| mestery | I think a strict agenda with a strong chair will be helpful with the influx of new people | 21:08 |
| ttx | eglynn: not that many, and we have no such thing as a mandatory meeting... the PTL can represent all | 21:08 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I'll encourage the oslo liaisons to attend, but many of them only signed up to sling code so I'm not sure how many will do it | 21:08 |
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| dhellmann | mestery: ++ | 21:08 |
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| ttx | basically, the PTLs can still represent all their team, but we should encouarge CPLs to join | 21:08 |
| morganfainberg | i'd rather see the meeting be run cleanly before we rotate chairs. | 21:08 |
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| ttx | morganfainberg: sure, not throwing the towel just yet | 21:08 |
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| ttx | the second part was just a suggestion going forward | 21:09 |
| ttx | basically, it shouold no longer be my meeting | 21:09 |
| ttx | it should be everyone's :) | 21:09 |
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| devananda | ttx: aren't there already project-specific cross-project meetigns? | 21:09 |
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| mestery | ttx: ++ | 21:09 |
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| eglynn | it might make more sense to have many 30min cross-project meetings focussed on individual concerns | 21:10 |
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| morganfainberg | devananda, are there? i'm not aware of many formalized ones beside topical e.g. HM | 21:10 |
| eglynn | (i.e. all the oslo liaisons, all the qa liaisons, all the stable-maints etc.) | 21:10 |
| devananda | ttx: I'm not sure I see what the goal of "get all CPLs and PTLs together" is, which is not served by just havign the PTLs together | 21:10 |
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| annegentle | devananda: because PTLs get overloaded | 21:10 |
| devananda | eglynn: right -- i thought there were already topic-specific meetings for CPLs | 21:10 |
| fungi | think of cpls as ptl delegates | 21:10 |
| morganfainberg | annegentle, PTLs don't scale. | 21:11 |
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| devananda | but maybe I imagined that | 21:11 |
| annegentle | devananda: and need API and docs liaisons for sure | 21:11 |
| ttx | devananda: the idea is to have a meeting where all sorts of cross-project issues are discussed | 21:11 |
| dhellmann | eglynn: the oslo liaisons are all supposed to be coming to the oslo meetings already -- that's a big part of what we do in our meetings | 21:11 |
| ttx | whatever is on the agenda | 21:11 |
| clarkb | corporals? | 21:11 |
| ttx | that's already the case, but the meeting is still called the release meeting | 21:11 |
| mestery | If we publish the agenda beforehand, we'll only need particualr CPLs for each meeting, which lightens the load from people having to attend all meetings | 21:11 |
| sdague | devananda: it's still really hard to make a coherent cross project whole by just assuming a bunch of smaller cross projects facets will magically make it happen | 21:11 |
| dhellmann | I think inviting all of those people to attend is a good way for us to foster new leadership within the project. | 21:11 |
| devananda | ttx: for example, if there is an oslo issue that the oslo CPLs need to discuss, does that need to take up time from the docs and qa and api CPLs of every project? | 21:11 |
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| fungi | clarkb: cross-project liaisons | 21:11 |
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| SlickNik | dhellmann: ++ | 21:12 |
| mestery | dhellmann: ++ | 21:12 |
| devananda | dhellmann: that's a fair point as well | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | devananda: I don't think the point is necessarily to talk about oslo issues, as much as to get the people who think about cross-project things together at a time when we're talking about cross-project issues | 21:12 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ++ | 21:12 |
| anteaya | I think ttx is proposing an experiment, I'm for giving it a shot and re-evaluating at K2 | 21:12 |
| sdague | honestly, I think as long as the agenda is crisp, more people here is fine | 21:12 |
| fungi | if it's an oslo-only issue, then it's likely off-topic anyway right? | 21:12 |
| devananda | dhellmann: ack | 21:12 |
| sdague | dhellmann: ++ | 21:12 |
| sdague | fungi: agree | 21:12 |
| mestery | sdague: ++ | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | fungi: right, and we'd cover it in our oslo meetings | 21:12 |
| devananda | ok, I'm ++ for the experiment as well | 21:12 |
| morganfainberg | ++ | 21:12 |
| SlickNik | sdague: agreed about the crisp agenda | 21:13 |
| dhellmann | ttx: are you going to send email to the -dev list inviting everyone? I'll mention it next monday in our oslo meeting, too | 21:13 |
| SlickNik | I'm all in favor of the experiment for K1 as well. | 21:13 |
| fungi | including cpls allows to avoid a ptl having to say, "oh i have a liaison handling that, i need to ask them and get back to you next week" | 21:13 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: also a good point | 21:13 |
| asalkeld | is it optional for cpls? | 21:14 |
| eglynn | does anyone see there being a practical scaling limit to the number of people who can effetcively participate in an IRC meeting? | 21:14 |
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| Vek | depends on how many talk in said meeting. | 21:14 |
| mestery | eglynn: Yes, thus the proposal for a crips agenda and strong chair :) | 21:14 |
| mestery | *crisp | 21:14 |
| sdague | mestery: ++ | 21:14 |
| anteaya | depends on the displine of the participants | 21:14 |
| ttx | sorry, my desktop just froze | 21:14 |
| dhellmann | eglynn: I expect most people to lurk rather than talk, but yeah, that might become an issue | 21:14 |
| fungi | asalkeld: i would think everything is optional to some degree. seems to me more like "encouraging" cpls to participate | 21:14 |
| sdague | eglynn: there are already 433 people in this room right now | 21:14 |
| ttx | at this point the only change is to rename it "cross-meeting project" | 21:14 |
| eglynn | Vek: well if they don't get to talk, they might as well just read the logs after the fact IMO | 21:14 |
| ttx | and then explain that the agenda is open (it already was) | 21:15 |
| sdague | ttx: ++ | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | ttx: "cross-project meeting"? | 21:15 |
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| ttx | and that we encourage everyone to join (already the case too) | 21:15 |
| eglynn | sdague: being on the channel != being at the meeting in any active sense | 21:15 |
| * dhellmann does not want a "meeting project" | 21:15 | |
| devananda | ttx: it sounds like another change would be to actually encourage specific other people to join / participate | 21:15 |
| ttx | oops | 21:15 |
| Vek | well, unless you're going to turn the channel +m, everyone has the opportunity to talk and contribute... | 21:15 |
| ttx | "cross-project meeting" yes | 21:15 |
| devananda | which, at least, is not something I have done within Ironic | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | ttx: :-) | 21:15 |
| sdague | eglynn: sure, but people can decide if it's relevant for them to participate | 21:15 |
| sdague | and a strong chair can correct them when they are wrong | 21:16 |
| ttx | frankly, it's more a change on the door signthan a change on the content of the room | 21:16 |
| mestery | sdague: ++ | 21:16 |
| ttx | but I think it will go a long way to empower new people | 21:16 |
| sdague | ttx: agree | 21:16 |
| mestery | I think we already let people optionally attend this meeting anyways, nothing stops them at the moment. | 21:16 |
| ttx | key word of the day "empowerment" | 21:16 |
| russellb | :) | 21:16 |
| eglynn | ttx: how did it work out back in the day when everyone attended the weekly release meeting? | 21:16 |
| Vek | mestery: thus my presence :) | 21:17 |
| mestery | Vek: Exactly! | 21:17 |
| ttx | eglynn: back in the day it was called the "project meeting" | 21:17 |
| ttx | and that was the allhands meeting | 21:17 |
| ttx | it worked out well, but obviously didn't scale | 21:17 |
| * russellb imagines an all hands irc meeting these days ... | 21:18 | |
| ttx | so we turned it into a release meeting | 21:18 |
| ttx | but than, that didn't scale... | 21:18 |
| ttx | and we switched to 1:1 syncs, with special topics being discussed at the meeting | 21:18 |
| * dhellmann wonders how many cases we have where the same person is liaison for multiple facets, or multiple projects | 21:18 | |
| * Vek imagines russellb's scenario...and the memory leak that would occur on all the IRC servers ;) | 21:18 | |
| ttx | and then... | 21:18 |
| ttx | special topics were just not all about release | 21:18 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: yea was wondering that also | 21:19 |
| eglynn | so my recommendation would be to at least pick an individual cross-project concern to concentrate on each week | 21:19 |
| ttx | hence the next logical step: call it "cross-project meeting" and not make those release dudes special anymore | 21:19 |
| eglynn | oslo one week, docs the next, qa the week after | 21:19 |
| sdague | eglynn: so I think that was the point of crisp agenda | 21:19 |
| ttx | eglynn: I think that would prevent the hot topic of the day to be discussed | 21:19 |
| ttx | in most cases, the hot topic is found the same day of the meeting | 21:19 |
| eglynn | sdague: the point was to set the expectation of attendence explicitly | 21:19 |
| ttx | (during the 1:1s) | 21:20 |
| * Vek prefers sdague's "crisp agenda" to eglynn's "one per meeting" too | 21:20 | |
| ttx | anyway, I'll put it in words and suggest it on the -dev ML | 21:20 |
| eglynn | sdague: i.e. "calling all oslo liaisons to attend this week" as opposed to all CPLs feeling semi-obliged to turn up every week | 21:20 |
| asalkeld | it seems fairly harmless to me | 21:20 |
| sdague | Vek: yeh, because the relevant concerns are going to be topical based what we need now | 21:20 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I don't know that we can predict in advance what facet will be important, but also the point is to bring together more people who have the general concern of cross-project issues to deal with whatever the hot topic actually is | 21:20 |
| sdague | dhellmann: ++ | 21:21 |
| ttx | and frankly, some times there won't be any topic to discuss | 21:21 |
| ttx | and that's fine | 21:21 |
| dhellmann | because if we don't start growing our leadership team, we're going to have some new growing pains pretty soon | 21:21 |
| ttx | I just want a predefined avenue to raise general online discussions | 21:21 |
| ttx | and I want to get CPLs more recognition too | 21:21 |
| ttx | anyway, will push to -ml | 21:22 |
| mestery | dhellmann: ++ | 21:22 |
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| ttx | #action ttx to put his "cross-project meeting" rename into more words and a thread | 21:22 |
| ttx | #topic Mid-cycle meetups: what and why | 21:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mid-cycle meetups: what and why (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:22 | |
| ttx | We are just back from the Design Summit, and we already see mid-cycle meetups being organized and announced | 21:22 |
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| ttx | On one hand that only makes sense, a cycle is only 6 months and last-minute travel planning is costly and painful | 21:22 |
| dhellmann | eglynn: I think the really interested folks will self-select anyway, but an invitation may push some people to attend who might not have thought of it otherwise | 21:22 |
| ttx | On the other hand... mid-cycle meetups can be seen as a failure to collaborate virtually with just 2 F2F meetings per year, and requiring more | 21:22 |
| ttx | My personal view on meetups is that they should not be mandatory, they should not be for making project decisions in a hidden corner with a priviledged few | 21:23 |
| ttx | They should be to get specific work done. They should be more like a sprint, a workshop, a hackathon, than a core subsummit. | 21:23 |
| ttx | Last cycle, some of them were a bit too much direction-setting imho, mostly because we couldn't agree much on direction at the summit | 21:23 |
| ttx | We took steps to fix that with a more team-oriented format in Paris | 21:23 |
| ttx | annegentle has been reaching out to midcycle meetup organizers to check *why* they thought they needed one | 21:23 |
| ttx | to make sure we cover all the bases | 21:24 |
| ttx | annegentle: what was the feedback like ? | 21:24 |
| annegentle | to make sure we get feedback on the summit changes, whether they were working also | 21:24 |
| devananda | ttx: "like a sprint, a workshop, a hackathon" ++ | 21:24 |
| annegentle | so, I asked keystone reps, heat reps, and neutron reps and got answers back that were very insightful | 21:24 |
| russellb | +1 to the description of when they could make sense | 21:24 |
| ttx | I want us to keep calling them "midcycle sprints" to reinforce the results-driven approach | 21:25 |
| mestery | ttx: ++ | 21:25 |
| ttx | rather than "meetups" | 21:25 |
| asalkeld | my major issue with them is the financial burden on companies | 21:25 |
| annegentle | some of the feedback was around the summit itself not really being good for deep design work, serious discussions, or team reviews and coding | 21:25 |
| dhellmann | beating the alliteration is going to be challenging :-) | 21:25 |
| annegentle | so that lends itself to the sprint model | 21:25 |
| russellb | mestery: i think the description of the neutron one is good - it makes it clear that it's focused on sprinting on a small set of targeted efforts | 21:25 |
| nikhil_k | Glance (by history): "like a sprint, a workshop, a hackathon" -> -1 | 21:25 |
| annegentle | the keystone input was around the release cycle model itself, and the timing | 21:25 |
| annegentle | so that was a bit surprising, I hadn't thought of that | 21:25 |
| nikhil_k | direction +1 | 21:25 |
| devananda | the co-location of ironic and nova's midcycles served a very useful purpose, which I believe could not have been served at the summit | 21:25 |
| mestery | russellb: Thanks, and we've had success doing it that way. | 21:25 |
| annegentle | everyone agrees it's costly and difficult to get people together more often than summits for F2F | 21:26 |
| eglynn | so one aspect of midcycle that's positive is that there are essentially self-organized | 21:26 |
| morganfainberg | and i stand by our use for cadence of release - and it's been successful (at least in my view) for keeping us hitting the targets. | 21:26 |
| eglynn | i.e. the project team controlls the format | 21:26 |
| sdague | eglynn: yes, part of the productivity has come from that | 21:26 |
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| eglynn | I'd be leery of smothering that aspect | 21:26 |
| annegentle | it wasn't necessarily that we didn't get the "right" people to the summit | 21:26 |
| mikal | Nova used the last meetup to track progress on features we'd promised at the summit | 21:26 |
| mikal | That was a useful exercise that saw a number of things land which wouldn't have otherwise | 21:27 |
| anteaya | I went to three last release and they were all useful | 21:27 |
| annegentle | I think mestery said it well, it's for focus. | 21:27 |
| mikal | I also have only received feedback about disliking meetups from employees of a single company (literally) | 21:27 |
| annegentle | the summit doesn't offer or afford focus | 21:27 |
| russellb | i don't think anyone argues they aren't useful | 21:27 |
| anteaya | each program has its own style and all three meetups were very different in format | 21:27 |
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| anteaya | and all repsondants felt they were useful | 21:27 |
| Vek | <annegentle> the summit doesn't offer or afford focus <- +1 | 21:28 |
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| ttx | mikal: I think that's fine -- we just need to make sure they are optional, not that they are useless :) | 21:28 |
| russellb | it's not a useful vs. not-useful question for me | 21:28 |
| mikal | russellb: that's untrue -- I receive email telling me that "OpenStack has failed as an open source project" because we have physical meetings | 21:28 |
| mestery | Neutron's are always optional, FYI | 21:28 |
| annegentle | my take is, of course they're useful, they're high fidelity communications and focused. | 21:28 |
| morganfainberg | devananda, keystone and barbican tend to get the same benefit (for at least an overlap day) | 21:28 |
| mestery | annegentle: ++ | 21:28 |
| russellb | mikal: that doesn't mean work wasn't done | 21:28 |
| annegentle | But I also have to say you can't just take input from those who go to them. | 21:28 |
| anteaya | folks dealt with content they couldn't address at summit, mostly due to needing to multitask at summit | 21:28 |
| russellb | it's about nurturing processes that are as inclusive as possible | 21:28 |
| annegentle | not everyone is that privileged - either for budget or time reasons or location reasons, we can't expect that much travel | 21:28 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: ++ to both | 21:28 |
| mestery | annegentle: ++ to both as well | 21:29 |
| eglynn | is the thought here to set cross-project standards on what a mid-cycle should be? | 21:29 |
| annegentle | and honestly, I don't think the issue is about cost as much as choices. I don't choose to travel to all the midcycles I'm invited to. Heck I don't go speak at all the conferences I'm invited to. I have to pick and choose. | 21:29 |
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| annegentle | so I just wanted to bring it forward to ensure we have good guideance | 21:30 |
| russellb | eglynn: or perhaps what they should not be | 21:30 |
| anteaya | is the current communication limiting choice? | 21:30 |
| annegentle | I can't spell :) | 21:30 |
| ttx | FTR I'l not saying we should stop doing them -- I'm saying we should make sure they stay optional, and that we could technically get rid of them if they are not needed anymore | 21:30 |
| russellb | ttx: ++, optional, tactical/sprint focused | 21:30 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, ++ i would like to see them become, if needed, pure virtual meetings. | 21:30 |
| asalkeld | ttx isn't that up to the project? | 21:30 |
| mestery | ttx: +1 to optional | 21:30 |
| morganfainberg | and stay focused on sprint/results | 21:30 |
| morganfainberg | as well as optional. | 21:30 |
| annegentle | we called a doc one a "boot camp" | 21:30 |
| mikal | ttx: in what way are they non-optional now? I don't understand. | 21:31 |
| anteaya | are there current sprints that are communicated as non-optional? | 21:31 |
| eglynn | russellb: yeah, I think a general principle should be: "don't assume you need one, just all the cool kids seem to be having one" | 21:31 |
| ttx | asalkeld: sure: my point ius, no project should feel compeeled to do one just because everyone else does | 21:31 |
| nikhil_k | "pure virtual meetings" +1 | 21:31 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, i think it's a concern that they don't become "mandatory" | 21:31 |
| sdague | ttx: so I agree with breaking that assumption | 21:31 |
| * devananda is back ... network dropped | 21:31 | |
| morganfainberg | mikal, not that they are required now | 21:31 |
| fungi | yeah, of the two infra has done so far, one was an onboarding-focused get together, and the other was a join sprint with the qa team, but we're also trying not to just have one every cycle | 21:31 |
| ttx | mikal: what morgan says. | 21:31 |
| russellb | there's mandatory, and there's "expected/ *strongly* encouraged", and I don't think it should be either of those | 21:32 |
| ttx | mikal: "stay optional" if youprefer | 21:32 |
| mestery | russellb: ++ | 21:32 |
| mikal | nikhil_k: the TC can't even agree on a _tool_ for a short online meeting, how can we expect to get all of a large core team to one? | 21:32 |
| eglynn | agreed on defaulting to not needing one, unless there's *specific* justification | 21:32 |
| clarkb | fungi: ya I think the question we have asked in the past is "Do we have a specific reason to get together this cycle?" | 21:32 |
| eglynn | but if the project team decides they want one, up to them how they format it | 21:32 |
| russellb | mikal: who do you *expect* to show up to the nova one this time? | 21:32 |
| anteaya | isn't that the default now? | 21:32 |
| nikhil_k | mikal: haha, try vidyo ;) | 21:32 |
| clarkb | sometimes we do and otehrs we don;t | 21:32 |
| fungi | i mainly worry that there's pressure on some teams to have mid-cycle assemblies just because everyone else is doing it | 21:32 |
| ttx | clarkb: "yes: skiing" | 21:32 |
| dhellmann | so if we assume we don't need them until we find a reason, how do we deal with the issues around planning for them on short notice? | 21:32 |
| clarkb | ttx: :) | 21:32 |
| nikhil_k | mikal: and we did that for 17 odd folks (not sure what the size of nova core is) | 21:33 |
| sdague | dhellmann: yeh, I think that's a pretty valid point | 21:33 |
| morganfainberg | russellb, i will always say I prefer people to come if they can. Why, because i like working with them and get benefit from it. If they can't or don't want to, i expect them to keep contributing in the way everyone has since the beginging :) - and provide feedback we can include while people are there face-to-face | 21:33 |
| eglynn | fungi: yep, status anxiety ;) | 21:33 |
| devananda | while cost and travel burden are an issue, for many people, that is outweighed by the benefit of the f2f time | 21:33 |
| fungi | ttx: skiing as a service? is that a new infra project? | 21:33 |
| mtreinish | ttx: heh, that was the proposed qa/infra/rel-mgt one right? :) | 21:33 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: I'd hate for us to realize we need one and then not be able to put it together, too | 21:33 |
| sdague | because I know that's one of the reason's mikal started working on tihs early, as there were complaints that there was not enough runway | 21:33 |
| sdague | on the last nova one | 21:33 |
| mikal | nikhil_k: I have people who will refuse to use vidyo because its proprietary | 21:33 |
| mikal | nikhil_k: ditto google hangouts | 21:33 |
| dhellmann | sdague, mikal : exactly | 21:34 |
| morganfainberg | russellb, but we have at least 1 core that doesn't come because of distance.. i'd say impact has been generally minimal if anyone skips. | 21:34 |
| * mestery notes there is no perfect video solution that everyone is happy with | 21:34 | |
| nikhil_k | makes sense, that's a hard problem | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | mikal: do those people use open source airplanes? :-) | 21:34 |
| annegentle | lol | 21:34 |
| ttx | agree with mikal on that -- pure virtual meetings, you can do them on IRC, that's what we do when we do bugdays and other "events" | 21:34 |
| sdague | dhellmann: you should ask them :) | 21:34 |
| russellb | mikal: you see my question above? i'm curious what your view is on attendance at the nova one this time. | 21:34 |
| ttx | and they won't replace spending time together anyway | 21:34 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, i'd say the "it's proprietary" is a really annoying argument for not using something. but i don't like getting into flamewars or starting them so i avoid the question. | 21:34 |
| russellb | or will it depend on a set of sprint topics not decided yet? | 21:34 |
| russellb | or? | 21:35 |
| asalkeld | time zones are a bigger issue than video software | 21:35 |
| ttx | asalkeld: ++ | 21:35 |
| mikal | dhellmann: I have zero interest in arguing wiht people about software choices. You can do that for me if you'd like. | 21:35 |
| eglynn | asalkeld: agreed | 21:35 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, +++++++ | 21:35 |
| dhellmann | mikal: I'm with you, actually. | 21:35 |
| mikal | russellb: I see the majority of nova core coming to this one, but I might be wrong. | 21:35 |
| * devananda hands mikal a wet cat to throw at fungi | 21:35 | |
| nikhil_k | ttx: "pure virtual meetings, you can do them on IRC" <- almost none participation | 21:35 |
| nikhil_k | ttx: and also depends on the goal of the meetup | 21:36 |
| dhellmann | fwiw, I think it's great that mikal has started planning the nova meetup so early (and others have too, I guess) | 21:36 |
| * fungi is willing to take on the "choosing proprietary alternatives is destructive to the open community" debate whenever | 21:36 | |
| ttx | nikhil_k: my point is, pure virtual meetings won't replace face-to-face sprints | 21:36 |
| morganfainberg | we've done a couple hangouts for keystone - and voice communication often works better for communicating some concepts than IRC ever will | 21:36 |
| ttx | you can't just have a pure virtual meeting with contributors all over the globe | 21:36 |
| nikhil_k | ttx: ah, didn't read the next line. oops | 21:36 |
| sdague | annegentle: so back to an earlier point about surveying not only the attendees, have you gotten good feedback from non attendees of the midcycles on their impacts (good and bad) to the contributor base? | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | fungi: apparently we have some sort of asterix server we can use? how do we get access to that? | 21:37 |
| russellb | fungi: you wrote a nice -dev post on that a few months ago :) | 21:37 |
| devananda | ttx: is the point to have a general agreement on "mid cycle sprints should be optional for projects to have, andattendance of them should also be optional" ? | 21:37 |
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| fungi | dhellmann: there's a wiki. you dial into it with a phone or a free sip client | 21:37 |
| annegentle | sdague: ah yes, so there's no way to do that is there? I guess that was my point. We can't take the survey from people who consider travel a perk :) | 21:37 |
| eglynn | devananda: ++ | 21:37 |
| ttx | devananda: yes, and try to fish some ideas to make design summit time more efficient | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | fungi: ok, I've used asterix so I was asking specifically about our server. I'll look in the wiki | 21:37 |
| nikhil_k | ttx: just worried - topics like these might get messier with with all the CPLs | 21:37 |
| fungi | dhellmann: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Conferencing | 21:37 |
| sdague | annegentle: well you know who went right? | 21:37 |
| eglynn | ttx: is this discussion somehwat related to the idea that the design summit and conference should be decoupled? | 21:38 |
| sdague | and you know core team members that didn't go | 21:38 |
| annegentle | sdague: mostly could figure it out | 21:38 |
| devananda | ttx: i don't think the midcycles should have any bearing on the main summit -- if we say they do, then we've just said the midcycles are no more optional than the summit | 21:38 |
| ttx | devananda: some people told me: "it's the only way to get only $PROJECT people in a room without bystanders | 21:38 |
| sdague | so they could be asked directly | 21:38 |
| dhellmann | fungi: thanks | 21:38 |
| SlickNik | fungi: thanks for that link | 21:38 |
| ttx | devananda: if that's the only reason, we can evolve the design summit format to allow for that | 21:38 |
| annegentle | so is it "cores who couldn't make it" or "people who will never be core if they don't travel tons" or? | 21:38 |
| Vek | ttx: I don't know that we can make design summit time more efficient; there's just too much going on, and several of us need to check out multiple worlds when we get a chance. | 21:38 |
| mestery | ttx: That's a true statement. Whether that's a good statement or not is left up for debate. | 21:38 |
| sdague | annegentle: so part B is harder to figure out | 21:38 |
| devananda | ttx: i agree with that. almost. Friday made me think it was possible | 21:38 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, i really hope thats not the goal of a midcycle. i'd rather have anyone come to ours that wants to and contribute...but just be focused on keystone work. | 21:38 |
| sdague | but part A would be some data | 21:38 |
| annegentle | we did toy around with "design summit in boring location" at one point | 21:38 |
| * morganfainberg shrugs. | 21:38 | |
| * eglynn doesn't understand why bystanders are such an issue | 21:38 | |
| morganfainberg | eglynn, ++ | 21:39 |
| devananda | ttx: we had a half day on friday where only ironic ATCs stood at a white board and designed something | 21:39 |
| devananda | ttx: it was awesome. and only about 2 hours long | 21:39 |
| annegentle | I think another data point we need to gather going forward is more understanding across projects | 21:39 |
| sdague | eglynn: you apparently weren't in the performance art have to be on the microphone sesssions in the nova room :) | 21:39 |
| david-lyle | eglynn: ++ | 21:40 |
| Vek | heh | 21:40 |
| morganfainberg | sdague, i heard keystone was the real performance art :P but i'm not surprised you have the same issues in nova. | 21:40 |
| dhellmann | sdague: maybe we should not have mics at the next summit | 21:40 |
| annegentle | do some teams meet midcycle because nova did it? because it became tradition? That sort of patterning might help | 21:40 |
| SlickNik | eglynn: Often bystanders ask questions, and you don't really want to shut someone out who's trying to learn. | 21:40 |
| russellb | heh, the microphone hostility doesn't exist in all rooms | 21:40 |
| russellb | neutron room happily used the mic, and honestly, i didn't feel like it hurt the discussion | 21:40 |
| SlickNik | eglynn: But that does come at a cost of time | 21:40 |
| eglynn | sdague: I caught some of the performance art at the summit feedback session, very bizzare | 21:40 |
| sdague | eglynn: :) | 21:40 |
| * mestery notes neutron has used the mic for many summits in a row now without major issues | 21:40 | |
| dhellmann | russellb: we used it some in oslo, but we had a smaller group and I have a loud voice so maybe we just didn't need it as much :-) | 21:41 |
| eglynn | ... but that was the only disuptive randomer I saw all summit | 21:41 |
| sdague | eglynn: that's not the issue | 21:41 |
| nikhil_k | annegentle: for glance we started as nova did and then it became evident that mini-summits are power*100 more productive than the main event | 21:41 |
| russellb | IT'S ABOUT MONEY! WE HAVE TO FIX THE ECONOMY! | 21:41 |
| russellb | (for anyone who was at the feedback session) | 21:41 |
| sdague | the issue is there was noticable throughput difference in the non miced nova sessions | 21:41 |
| mestery | I can only speak for neutron, but we've found midcycles important to close on important work: Icehouse it was QA/Tempest for neutron, Juno it was nova-network parity, and Kilo it's paying down technical debt. | 21:41 |
| ttx | ECONOMY BAD | 21:41 |
| sdague | and the miced ones | 21:41 |
| morganfainberg | SlickNik, i think if you go in with a focus vs. the more general summit - the bystander issue would be less problematic | 21:41 |
| annegentle | russellb: that was freaky | 21:41 |
| ttx | I think we are going off-topic now, so it's time for... | 21:42 |
| sdague | like the non miced ones probably covered 2 - 4x more content and agreement | 21:42 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 21:42 |
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| ttx | feel free to continue on the same topic though | 21:42 |
| morganfainberg | annegentle, we all were a little shocked by that one. | 21:42 |
| ttx | just want to signal it's fine throwing random comments starting from now | 21:42 |
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| * dhellmann isn't sure whether to be glad or sad that he missed it | 21:42 | |
| eglynn | did we come to any specific conclusions above? | 21:42 |
| russellb | eglynn: was just wondering that | 21:42 |
| morganfainberg | dhellmann, it was special | 21:42 |
| annegentle | ttx: I can write a summary email to the openstack-dev list if that helps on midcycle consistency | 21:42 |
| Vek | dhellmann: ++ | 21:42 |
| russellb | trying to think of how we bring some closure to the mid-cycle discussions we keep having | 21:42 |
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| dhellmann | ttx, annegentle : is the goal for this discussion just to understand more, or are we seeking a specific change? | 21:43 |
| ttx | eglynn: actually yes. I think theer is consensus around the "stay optional" and the "should be a sprint to get something done" ideas | 21:43 |
| sdague | russellb: yeh, honestly, it feels like there is mostly a latency issue | 21:43 |
| notmyname | our swift hackathons (mid-cycle whatevers) started with 2 rules: (1) no slides (2) no "intro to swift" sessions. and we started doing them in specific response to the summits (where we kept having lots of beginner/intro qeustions and topics) | 21:43 |
| Vek | I think the basic problem is that the summit and the midcycles solve two distinct problems, both of which need to be solved for. | 21:43 |
| annegentle | for me, it was just to gain more understanding, and test our Board/TC discussions with the real-world | 21:43 |
| ttx | annegentle: ++ | 21:43 |
| morganfainberg | i think we just need to make it clear it's self-organising and that they are optional | 21:43 |
| ttx | #action annegentle to write a summary email to -dev to foster midcycle consistency | 21:43 |
| devananda | ++ keep them small ++ optional ++ actually get real work done | 21:43 |
| anteaya | annegentle: I hosted the neutron mid-cycle in montreal last january as a direct response to the hong kong summit being ineffective for devs | 21:44 |
| eglynn | key point from my PoV is to encourage projects to reflect on whether they *really* need one | 21:44 |
| russellb | ttx: where should we capture that? a governance resolution that expresses what we feel is appropriate async self-organized meetups outside of our normal process/tools? | 21:44 |
| morganfainberg | devananda++ | 21:44 |
| sdague | because the mid cycle planning happened early, because last time people complained they didn't have enough time to plan | 21:44 |
| eglynn | .. but leave the format up to them if they really feel that they do | 21:44 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: the change we talked about at Board/TC was to communicate that midcycles are for focused sessions only and not to have them be the default/defacto operating process | 21:44 |
| russellb | oh, i see the annegentle action ... | 21:44 |
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| anteaya | that situation is beginnnig to be better at summits, somewhat | 21:44 |
| sdague | and now we change the summit format to hopefully make them less required, but the gears are in play, because they already were | 21:44 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: we should write that down somewhere, as russellb suggests :-) | 21:44 |
| ttx | russellb: i don't think that calls for a TC resoltuion, just a sane ML thread should do | 21:44 |
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| russellb | we've had non-sane ML threads already | 21:44 |
| sdague | and I don't know if we'll know until they happen if they really feel less needed | 21:44 |
| russellb | :-p | 21:44 |
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| annegentle | right dhellmann -- but russellb I think a ML thread is fine. | 21:45 |
| morganfainberg | sdague, i agree we will likely see a 1 cycle lag on | 21:45 |
| morganfainberg | "are these needed" | 21:45 |
| dhellmann | sdague: right, it may take this full cycle before we know how well the summit changes worked, since we're already planning for some sprints this cycle | 21:45 |
| eglynn | ttx: wasn't there a related topic at the joint TC/board meeting in Paris? ... what was the outcome of that discussion? | 21:45 |
| * Vek shakes his head at mikal :) | 21:45 | |
| sdague | so in some ways it feels a little premature to demonize the midcycles at this stage | 21:45 |
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| ttx | eglynn: didn't go very far | 21:45 |
| mestery | sdague: ++ | 21:45 |
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| dhellmann | eglynn: that's what annegentle was saying, that we seemed to agree on discouraging making attendance "mandatory" | 21:46 |
| ttx | eglynn: was mostly about communication around them | 21:46 |
| annegentle | sdague: yeah, not demonizing at all, they fill a need | 21:46 |
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| ttx | eglynn: like they should all be referenced in one place (https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints) | 21:46 |
| * mestery wonders which mid-cycle had mandatory attendane as a requirement | 21:46 | |
| mestery | Does anyone know of one? | 21:46 |
| mestery | I'm not aware of one | 21:46 |
| sdague | mestery: none | 21:46 |
| dhellmann | mestery: it may just have been an impression rather than an actual rule | 21:46 |
| mestery | sdague: Right, so I don't get that argument by people then. | 21:46 |
| ttx | mestery: some suggested that they should be mandatory for -core in their project | 21:46 |
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| anteaya | do they still? | 21:47 |
| notmyname | mestery: explicit mandetory or implicit/social mandetory? | 21:47 |
| fungi | the one time i saw it proposed, it got some fairly heated counterarguments on the ml | 21:47 |
| Vek | there's also the question of whether it's mandatory for a project to have a midcycle... | 21:47 |
| mestery | I think we need to make it explicit that attendance is optional | 21:47 |
| sdague | Vek: right, and that should definitely be a no | 21:47 |
| mestery | I've tried to do that for neutron | 21:47 |
| mestery | I encourage others to do the same | 21:47 |
| nikhil_k | "some suggested that they should be mandatory for -core in their project" <- bad | 21:47 |
| nikhil_k | it would be hard to get cores from china to US for mid-cycle | 21:47 |
| sdague | nikhil_k: so I think that straw man is beaten to death | 21:47 |
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| * Vek has enough trouble trying to make it to the summits | 21:48 | |
| nikhil_k | sdague: lol, yeah no kidding | 21:48 |
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| fungi | well, attendance to anything is "optional" but i think it's worth stating that projects would rather core reviewers show up for the summits than the mid-cycles | 21:48 |
| sdague | if feels like the mandatory thing is a straw man that never materialized, but that everyone wants to argue about :) | 21:48 |
| devananda | there's the implicit social pressure -- core team members who can't attend may feel like they will be missing on some big discussions | 21:48 |
| mestery | fungi: ++ | 21:48 |
| morganfainberg | fungi, ++ | 21:48 |
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| Vek | sdague: agreed | 21:48 |
| mestery | sdague: lol | 21:48 |
| devananda | what can we do to lessen that? | 21:48 |
| russellb | devananda: that. | 21:48 |
| dhellmann | devananda: ++ | 21:49 |
| devananda | besides, of course, stress that it isn't a design / planning session | 21:49 |
| devananda | but a hackathon | 21:49 |
| Vek | "midcycle hackathon" | 21:49 |
| devananda | that, however, was not my experience at any of them -- the three I attended were all planning sessions | 21:49 |
| anteaya | but sometimes it is a design session | 21:49 |
| anteaya | neutron had ideas for mulitnode testing that I took to the infra mid-cycle | 21:49 |
| russellb | devananda: you're nailing the issue, IMO | 21:49 |
| fungi | right, stress that you're going to miss out on face time and getting some specific work done is not so bad as stress that you're missing out on the planning and direction setting | 21:49 |
| devananda | fungi: right | 21:50 |
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| sdague | russellb: so agreed, but at the same time, ironic driver would not have landed without portland | 21:50 |
| devananda | so perhaps we should stress that planning should not happen in f2f meetings | 21:50 |
| dhellmann | it's odd to say "it's ok to get together in a room and build something, just don't make any decisions about how to do that" | 21:50 |
| fungi | anteaya: i saw that as a feature design, a la sprint-worthy | 21:50 |
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| mestery | dhellmann: ++ | 21:50 |
| devananda | as that is not in keeping with our principle of "open" | 21:50 |
| annegentle | early on in formation, teams get a lot out of face to face | 21:50 |
| russellb | sdague: "let's push on the ironic driver" would be a reasonable sprint i think | 21:50 |
| Vek | dhellmann: also not something that's enforceable, either. | 21:50 |
| anteaya | fungi: which it was, yes | 21:50 |
| eglynn | on the hackathon question, do we have any sense that this is a productive way for an opensource community to write code? | 21:50 |
| sdague | so there is definitely a balance there, because that was important to do | 21:50 |
| ttx | devananda: at the very least we should discourage it, yes. We can't prevent it really | 21:50 |
| annegentle | happened for the docs team for sure | 21:50 |
| devananda | ttx: sure | 21:50 |
| dhellmann | Vek: true | 21:50 |
| devananda | that's what I mean :) | 21:50 |
| mestery | eglynn: Not that I'm aware of, no. | 21:51 |
| fungi | there is plenty anecdotal evidence that lots of projects participate in hackathons though | 21:51 |
| dhellmann | eglynn: I'd love to lock the oslo cores in a room and having them do reviews. Wait, did I say "lock"? | 21:51 |
| devananda | dhellmann: it's not "dont decide HOW to do it" -- I think that's fine in a midcycle | 21:51 |
| dhellmann | devananda: just not "whether"? | 21:51 |
| devananda | dhellmann: perhaps my thought is better phrased as "dont decide WHAT to do" | 21:51 |
| devananda | or whether, sure. that alsow orks | 21:51 |
| morganfainberg | there have been a couple things that came up for Keystone mid-cycle that were based on earlier development | 21:51 |
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| morganfainberg | that ended up being designed there | 21:51 |
| morganfainberg | e.g. K2K federation | 21:51 |
| eglynn | mestery: yep, so restricting midcycles to a hackathon style makes no sense to me ... we should be able to collaborate on code remotely | 21:51 |
| mikal | nikhil_k: I think that's a reference to me, and that's not what I said | 21:51 |
| mikal | nikhil_k: its a deliberate misquite | 21:52 |
| mikal | misquote even | 21:52 |
| devananda | to the ironic/nova example -- it was clearly known by all the core team members on both sides that we would be having taht discussion | 21:52 |
| anteaya | I disagree with the discourage it angle, I would hate to see the shape neutron would be in if we hadn't meet in Montreal about tempest | 21:52 |
| nikhil_k | dhellmann: "d love to lock the oslo cores in a room and having them do reviews. Wait, did I say "lock"? | 21:52 |
| mikal | nikhil_k: what I said was they were "strongly encouraged" for cores | 21:52 |
| nikhil_k | +1 | 21:52 |
| dhellmann | devananda: ok, but I think the question of how is often just as important | 21:52 |
| wendar | the concerns about exclusion might be helped by planning a specific time in the middle of the sprint for remote participation | 21:52 |
| ttx | morganfainberg: in that specific case I think the design summit failed for you | 21:52 |
| Vek | I think the idea is that a midcycle needs to be focused on just a small handful of topics; the exact mechanics of how those topics are handled probably aren't important. | 21:52 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, well sortof. | 21:52 |
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| morganfainberg | ttx, we didn't know where it was going at the summit time. | 21:52 |
| sdague | anteaya: yeh, no kidding. We'd probably have thrown own neutron if we didn't have that. | 21:52 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, it was a logical step once we saw how it worked. | 21:52 |
| mestery | eglynn: We definitely can and do, but we've found the face time to be useful. Point noted however. | 21:52 |
| anteaya | sdague: exactly | 21:52 |
| * mestery sees a future where mid-cycles don't exist | 21:53 | |
| devananda | counter-point to my own point ... the introduction of IPA to Ironic happened at a midcycle | 21:53 |
| ttx | mestery: I have a dream too | 21:53 |
| nikhil_k | mikal: gotcha, "strongly encouraged" +1 | 21:53 |
| anteaya | wendar: that doesn't work for all groups | 21:53 |
| mestery | ttx: so, how can we change the summit to give us what the mid-cycles are giving people now? If we do that, we remove the need for mid-cycles | 21:53 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, it wasn't a complete new feature it was an enhancement that would have either needed to wait another cycle or it would have not landed. was all the design done there? no, but the initial "use standards, don't reinvent the wheel" type stuff | 21:53 |
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| anteaya | wendar: the groups that can do that are already | 21:53 |
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| nikhil_k | dmellado: s/oslo/<some_project>/ -> lock cores in a room :) | 21:54 |
| ttx | mestery: I think it will never give us full coverage. | 21:54 |
| devananda | anteaya: but do they? | 21:54 |
| nikhil_k | dhellmann: ^ | 21:54 |
| mestery | ttx: Maybe we can continue evolving it that way and see what happens though | 21:54 |
| ttx | mestery: for example, we liked Friday because everyone was in some room somewhere predictable | 21:54 |
| anteaya | devananda: yes, the ones that have a dynamic that includes that do already | 21:54 |
| mikal | nikhil_k: the problem we are trying to solve for is there being no concensus on the core team about direction of nova | 21:54 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, but that is definitely the exception to the rule for our hackathon(s). | 21:54 |
| wendar | anteaya: ISTR, the regular project meeting is usually canceled in a sprint week | 21:54 |
| ttx | and people like meetups because they are small and relaxed | 21:54 |
| anteaya | devananda: the ones that don't, don't | 21:54 |
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| wendar | anteaya: even just holding that as a sync point could help | 21:54 |
| mestery | ttx: Very true | 21:54 |
| anteaya | wendar: sorry I am missing the point of the last comment | 21:54 |
| ttx | you can't have both :) | 21:54 |
| mikal | nikhil_k: and trying to solve that problem in the context of some people refusing to attend online meetings using proprietary software, or outside their normal work hours | 21:54 |
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| mestery | ttx: It's a tough nut to crack for sure | 21:55 |
| ttx | so I think they can coexist. Do a meetup if one is needed to get some specific work done | 21:55 |
| wendar | but... I would be interested to see one project experiment with a pure-virtual sprint this cycle, maybe just for one day | 21:55 |
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| mestery | wendar: Define "day", depends on where you're located :) | 21:55 |
| ttx | I just felt like the ones for this cycle were organized not because they are needed, but becaus ethey need to be planned in advance | 21:55 |
| anteaya | wendar: the infra manual spriont it scheduled for 48 hours | 21:55 |
| anteaya | do attend | 21:55 |
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| wendar | (anteaya: then I probably just misunderstood what you meant) | 21:55 |
| nikhil_k | mikal: agreed, I think nova is a special case as it's so many times more complex. we'd avoid generalizing the concept and that prolly happens due to mis-communication | 21:56 |
| anteaya | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/VirtualSprints | 21:56 |
| wendar | mestery: sure, but shifting to a different time-zone for one 12 hour period is doable | 21:56 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, i think a 1 cycle delay on "are these really needed" is acceptible | 21:56 |
| mikal | On another note, I hear stories of mid-cycles in exotic locations | 21:56 |
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| mikal | I think that would be a much more interesting conversation to have | 21:56 |
| wendar | mestery: (may require a lot of coffee, but doable) | 21:56 |
| mestery | wendar: True | 21:56 |
| dhellmann | mikal: indeed | 21:56 |
| ttx | morganfainberg: sure. The alternative (organize them at the last minute) is not great either ;) | 21:56 |
| mestery | mikal: Exotic locations? Do tell? | 21:56 |
| Vek | mikal: *nod* | 21:56 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, ++ | 21:56 |
| sdague | ttx: so how does one handle the tension of giving people > 6 weeks notice for a midcycle vs. planning ahead assuming you need them | 21:56 |
| ttx | mikal: like.. Australia ? | 21:57 |
| mikal | I am very annoyed that I am trying to keep my costs down for people, but it is now assumed taht all mid-cycles are junkets | 21:57 |
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| mikal | So far I've heard of one in a Swiss ski resort, and one in South America | 21:57 |
| * mestery doesn't assume that and hopes others don't as well | 21:57 | |
| Vek | *cough* | 21:57 |
| ttx | sdague: my point exactly | 21:57 |
| ttx | sdague: (see my alternative answer to morgan) | 21:57 |
| nikhil_k | mikal: organizing a video session that will scale to X dozen participants and is non proprietary -> prolly not happening for another 5 years :/ | 21:57 |
| anteaya | nikhil_k: have you considered audio with asterisk? | 21:58 |
| mikal | nikhil_k: it also has to work on low bandwidth links, which rules out all the open webrtc thigns I've looked at | 21:58 |
| fungi | mikal: south america is an exotic locale? | 21:58 |
| dhellmann | how many people attend these midcycle things? I haven't been to one since the infra meeting in NYC | 21:58 |
| dhellmann | fungi: for some people, in january, yes | 21:58 |
| anteaya | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Conferencing | 21:58 |
| mikal | fungi: if less than 25% of the team lives there, yes | 21:58 |
| * Vek hasn't been to any midcycles | 21:58 | |
| mestery | Neutron usually has approx. 20 people | 21:58 |
| ttx | someone's exotic is omeone else's boring | 21:58 |
| nikhil_k | yeah :/ | 21:58 |
| morganfainberg | Keystone is 15-22 people, if we overlap with barbican closer to 30 on that day | 21:59 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: depends on the group, 20 to 30 is my experience | 21:59 |
| sdague | the infra/qa one was 20 - 30 | 21:59 |
| fungi | mikal: we did our last get-together in a suburb of frankfurt, de. i'm sure some people thought that was exotic | 21:59 |
| annegentle | yeah 30 is high | 21:59 |
| nikhil_k | anteaya: not really, we've had luck with regular softwares and people not complaning | 21:59 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: ok, a rough # was what I was looking for | 21:59 |
| * annegentle writes down the data we need to spread | 21:59 | |
| ttx | storyboard one was 16 | 21:59 |
| mikal | I persoanlly think we should find the center of mass for our contributors (per project) and run the meetup as close to that location as possible | 21:59 |
| sdague | nova / ironic / containers was 50+, but that was 3 at once | 21:59 |
| mikal | fungi: yes, it did double my travel spend for that meetup | 21:59 |
| dhellmann | so we don't need any conferencing infrastructure to support many dozens of people | 21:59 |
| mikal | fungi: Europe is 60 hours flying away from home for my people | 21:59 |
| dhellmann | oh, well, except maybe the case sdague just listed | 21:59 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, this is one of the reasons San Antonio is a target for Keystone's mid-cycle. | 21:59 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, good mid-point for most everyone. | 22:00 |
| fungi | mikal: we actually picked that location because it would be easier for european contributors to attend since they have trouble making it to north america sometimes | 22:00 |
| sdague | dhellmann: it was 3 in one though | 22:00 |
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| morganfainberg | a little far for a couple european folks. | 22:00 |
| ttx | ok, out of time | 22:00 |
| mtreinish | sdague: for qa/infra we had exactly 30 | 22:00 |
| dhellmann | sdague: well, true, maybe that would be something we could do on a summit friday now | 22:00 |
| ttx | thanks everyone, I think that was good feedback | 22:00 |
| * nikhil_k keep all mid-cycle meetups in hawii and problem solved | 22:00 | |
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| mtreinish | which was our cap, we had a few people we had to turn away because we didn't have space | 22:00 |
| ttx | hmm. hawaii | 22:00 |
| fungi | mikal: you're simply making the case for an exotic infra metup in the australian outback | 22:00 |
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| mikal | fungi: no, I think it should be in idaho | 22:00 |
| mestery | lol | 22:00 |
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| morganfainberg | ttx, hhhhmmm hawaii. | 22:00 |
| mikal | fungi: somewhere in the US certainly | 22:00 |
| ttx | thanks everyone! | 22:01 |
| * krotscheck runs off to found an openstack-based company on Maui. | 22:01 | |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 22:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:01 | |
| annegentle | thanks ttx | 22:01 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 18 22:01:17 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:01 |
| fungi | mikal: but we have no shortage of people in the usa. we'd like to get some contributors in other parts of the world | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-11-18-21.02.html | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-11-18-21.02.txt | 22:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-11-18-21.02.log.html | 22:01 |
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| morganfainberg | devananda, +++ | 22:01 |
| Vek | krotscheck: *rotcl* | 22:01 |
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| Ariana22 | i | 23:54 |
| Ariana22 | need | 23:54 |
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| Ariana22 | cock | 23:54 |
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| adam_g | wow | 23:55 |
| adam_g | such flood | 23:55 |
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| * hogepodge slow claps for clarkb | 23:56 | |
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| fungi | it would have been a lot more impressive if they'd managed to time it in the middle of a meeting | 23:57 |
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| ivar-lazzaro | I actually thought THAT was the meeting :D | 23:57 |
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