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| yamahata | hi | 05:00 |
|---|---|---|
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| s3wong | hello | 05:00 |
| vishwanathj | Hello | 05:00 |
| yamahata | #startmeeting servicevm-device-manager | 05:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 19 05:00:53 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yamahata. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 05:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 05:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'servicevm_device_manager' | 05:00 |
| yamahata | #topic Announcement | 05:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcement (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:01 | |
| yamahata | I have no special announcement today | 05:01 |
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| yamahata | Does anyone have any? | 05:01 |
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| bmelande | Hi all. Nothing from me. At the moment busy getting stuff done for J3. | 05:02 |
| yamahata | bmelande: hi | 05:03 |
| s3wong | Neutron feature freeze is this Thursday | 05:03 |
| yamahata | Sure. it's busy now. | 05:03 |
| yamahata | #open discussion | 05:03 |
| yamahata | For now I'm addressing config agent and plugging drivers. | 05:03 |
| yamahata | This week, I'll upload WIP code to github | 05:03 |
| s3wong | nice | 05:04 |
| yamahata | I think patch review is urgent issue? | 05:04 |
| bmelande | Which patch? | 05:04 |
| yamahata | bmelande: yours and Karthik | 05:05 |
| bmelande | Aha. :-) | 05:05 |
| yamahata | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101002/ | 05:05 |
| yamahata | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102336/ | 05:05 |
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| yamahata | I posted a simplification patch for csr1kv. Does it make sense? | 05:06 |
| natarajk | hi | 05:06 |
| yamahata | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/115157/ csr1kv simplification | 05:06 |
| yamahata | natarajk: hi | 05:06 |
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| yamahata | bmelande: or do you have any plan to use locally created file by hosting device driver? | 05:07 |
| bmelande | yamahata: Yes, it was good. Thanks. The configdrive change you pointed out is also useful. Has adopted that. Working on the 3rd party CI. That's why no new upload yet. | 05:07 |
| yamahata | bmelande: Great, then I'll abandon mine. | 05:08 |
| bmelande | yamahata: No, I'm happy to not have to generate a file and later remove it. Just a hazzle. | 05:08 |
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| yamahata | bmelande: okay | 05:08 |
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| yamahata | bmelande: I have another question. Is complementary_id necessary? Doesn't id work? | 05:09 |
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| yamahata | bmelande: Maybe a small patch to show the idea would help. | 05:12 |
| bmelande | yamahata: I had to add that to ensure cleaning up the ports/networks I create is alwoays possible to remove. | 05:13 |
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| yamahata | bmelande: Oh, I'll check it from that point of view. | 05:13 |
| bmelande | yamahata: you kind of already have it | 05:14 |
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| yamahata | maybe, I'll try to check it by creating a patch | 05:14 |
| bmelande | yahamata: because you had this attribute to hold the uuid of the Nova VM | 05:15 |
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| yamahata | I'm fine with keeping complementary_id in table | 05:16 |
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| bmelande | yamahata: Actually, I like the name you have used better. :-) | 05:17 |
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| yamahata | anything else to discuss? | 05:19 |
| bmelande | bmelande: The problem I had was that I set the id of the hosting device to the Nova VM's uuid. But if spawning fails when Nova has been given the instruction to spin up VM, *but* before the ports for it have been marked with that uuid, I had no good way of identifying theose ports for a later clean up. | 05:19 |
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| yamahata | bmelande: I see. It's error recovery path. I totally forgot it as I've wanted to have something working first. | 05:20 |
| bmelande | yamahata: Sorry, last was for you. That was the reasoning why I added it. But as said, afaik, you store the Nova uuid in a separate attribute and not in the hosting device id so you pretty miuch have the complementeary id already. | 05:20 |
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| yamahata | I understood its background. | 05:21 |
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| yamahata | thanks for the explanation | 05:22 |
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| yamahata | natarajk: s3wong do you have any topics? | 05:23 |
| s3wong | yamahata: no, all good for me | 05:24 |
| natarajk | have been busy with our CI setup to run all the required tests | 05:24 |
| natarajk | hopefully i can contribute more from next week | 05:24 |
| bmelande | natarajk: You too. :-) | 05:24 |
| yamahata | natarajk: No problem. good luck for your CI | 05:24 |
| yamahata | so seems no more topics. | 05:25 |
| yamahata | thank you every one. see you next week. | 05:25 |
| s3wong | thanks | 05:25 |
| bmelande | Thanks. Bye | 05:25 |
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| natarajk | bye | 05:25 |
| yamahata | #endmeeting | 05:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit is offline for project renames. ETA 1645." | 05:25 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 19 05:25:40 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 05:25 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-08-19-05.00.html | 05:25 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-08-19-05.00.txt | 05:25 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-08-19-05.00.log.html | 05:25 |
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| sc68cal | sorry i'm a tad late | 14:05 |
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| sc68cal | #startmeeting neutron_ipv6 | 14:06 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 19 14:06:18 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sc68cal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:06 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:06 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_ipv6' | 14:06 |
| xuhanp | hello | 14:06 |
| sc68cal | xuhanp: hello! | 14:06 |
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| HenryG | o/ | 14:07 |
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| sc68cal | xuhanp: I saw the comments on your review, regarding the NEC CI system | 14:08 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, yep. got some comments about dnsmasq version check | 14:09 |
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| xuhanp | and seems the nec CI has been fixed already: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/106299/ | 14:10 |
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| sc68cal | agree - looks like we're ready to merge | 14:11 |
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| HenryG | The complaint was that Ubuntu 12.04 has some old version of dnsmasq. But can't that be fixed with apt-get install update? | 14:11 |
| HenryG | Maybe I misunderstand operations issues. | 14:12 |
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| sc68cal | Most likely the cloud-archive will need to have a newer version of dnsmasq | 14:12 |
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| sc68cal | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/CloudArchive | 14:12 |
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| sc68cal | we deploy on 12.04 and utilize | 14:13 |
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| HenryG | Isn't zigo the person to help us out there? | 14:14 |
| zigo | Hi! | 14:14 |
| zigo | How may I help? :) | 14:14 |
| zigo | With dnsmasq? | 14:14 |
| HenryG | zigo: hi | 14:15 |
| sc68cal | no, zigo packages for debian I believe | 14:15 |
| sc68cal | I did forward him the e-mail as a heads up | 14:15 |
| amotoki | hi, according to the log, it seems you are talking about dnsmasq versoin. | 14:15 |
| zigo | http://archive.gplhost.com/debian/pool/juno-backports/main/d/dnsmasq/ | 14:15 |
| zigo | It's there already. | 14:15 |
| HenryG | amotoki: yes | 14:15 |
| xuhanp | amotoki, thanks for removing your -1 and fixing the Nec CI | 14:16 |
| zigo | Then there's someone working on an official Debian Wheezy backport (as per a debian-backport@lists.debian.org post). | 14:16 |
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| zigo | But I believe you need it for Ubuntu 12.04 ? | 14:16 |
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| zigo | Or for what? | 14:16 |
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| zigo | FYI, I do Debian stuff, I have no power to do anything on cloud-archive ... | 14:17 |
| HenryG | sorry zigo :( | 14:17 |
| amotoki | I think Ubuntu Cloud Archive does not support Juno on 12.04. | 14:17 |
| zigo | amotoki: That is correct. And the plan is to *not* support it. Same for my Juno packages btw. | 14:18 |
| zigo | Both Canonical guys and myself did some Precise packages because of customers needs, but at some point, they are required to upgrade to 14.04. | 14:18 |
| sc68cal | amotoki: I believe you are correct. 12.04 is going to stay on Icehouse I think. | 14:18 |
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| zigo | It's actually a pain to do all the backporting work (not only Python modules, but also all stuff like kernel, OVS, etc.). | 14:19 |
| sc68cal | guess everyone who wants OpenStack and ipv6 will have to upgrade to 14.04 too :( | 14:19 |
| zigo | sc68cal: Or switch to Debian? :) | 14:20 |
| amotoki | sc68cal: precisely speaking, everyone who wants to use dhcp-agent in Juno needs to upgrade to 14.04. | 14:20 |
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| sc68cal | zigo: hahaha yes, or switch to debian :) | 14:21 |
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| amotoki | :) | 14:21 |
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| sc68cal | I might need to bring this topic up in the infra meeting or 3rd party CI | 14:22 |
| sc68cal | since people might be using 12.04 for CI systems like NEC does | 14:22 |
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| amotoki | Actually I built dnsmasq package from ubuntu and put my local repo. NEC CI picks dnsmasq from there. | 14:23 |
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| sc68cal | amotoki: true, that is one way to fix :) we'll just need to give everyone a lot of warning about this | 14:25 |
| amotoki | The thing we need to bring up is that neutron CI requires Ubuntu 14.04 (12.04 no longer works with customized package). | 14:25 |
| sc68cal | agree | 14:26 |
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| amotoki | I honestly wonder why other CI's didn't break. They all use ubuntu 14.04 or Redhat variants.... | 14:26 |
| sc68cal | I'll add a reminder for myself to bring this up in the main neutron meeting | 14:26 |
| amotoki | sc68cal: good idea. | 14:26 |
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| HenryG | I know our CI has switched to 14.04 | 14:27 |
| HenryG | sc68cal: that is what the #action thing is for :) | 14:27 |
| amotoki | kyle and mark already agree with the direction on dev ML, so it must be just a notice. | 14:28 |
| sc68cal | HenryG: agree - | 14:28 |
| amotoki | #action sc68cal report dnsmasq 2.63 requirement for dhcp-agent in the weekly neutron meeting | 14:28 |
| sc68cal | I think you need to be chair for it to stick | 14:29 |
| sc68cal | so excuse the copy and paste :) | 14:29 |
| sc68cal | #action sc68cal report dnsmasq 2.63 requirement for dhcp-agent in the weekly neutron meeting | 14:29 |
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| HenryG | So while we have amotoki here ... | 14:29 |
| HenryG | Can we talk about IPv6 in Horizon? | 14:30 |
| amotoki | sure | 14:30 |
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| sc68cal | go for it ;) | 14:30 |
| * HenryG searches for the review ... | 14:30 | |
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| amotoki | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/74453/ ? | 14:31 |
| HenryG | https://review.openstack.org/74453 | 14:31 |
| HenryG | yes | 14:31 |
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| HenryG | So mainly I want to bring attention to the review because most of us don't go looking outside neutron much. | 14:33 |
| HenryG | Please review it. At least the parts that you recognize. | 14:33 |
| sc68cal | +1 | 14:33 |
| HenryG | One question I have about it ... | 14:33 |
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| amotoki | The easiest way is just to run the review :-) | 14:34 |
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| HenryG | Do we want to expose the raw attribute names in the UI? | 14:34 |
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| HenryG | Or give them "English" labels instead? "IPv6 RA Mode" etc? | 14:35 |
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| sc68cal | s/English/Localized/g | 14:35 |
| amotoki | What I concern is ipv6 ra and address modes have a lot of constraints. there are 10 combos | 14:35 |
| amotoki | my idea is just to make them dropdown list. | 14:35 |
| HenryG | amotoki: yes, and markmcclain has plans to tweak the attributes to avoid that | 14:36 |
| amotoki | or abishek is doing in antother approach. I can implement my idea so that you can test it. | 14:36 |
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| amotoki | i feel same as markmcclain :-) | 14:37 |
| sc68cal | do we have a spec for the tweaking of attributes? | 14:37 |
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| amotoki | HenryG: do you see any? | 14:38 |
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| HenryG | sc68cal: I have not seen a spec yet, only some doodling on a whiteboard at the midcycle | 14:39 |
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| HenryG | Given how much other stuff markmcclain has on his plate, I don't expect anything before kilo | 14:39 |
| sc68cal | ok | 14:40 |
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| HenryG | What I may do is take the doodles and draft something, then run it by markmcclain to see if he will allow me to post the spec | 14:41 |
| amotoki | I would like to implement the dropdown menu version of Horizon support. It will be appreciated if you feedback on it and suggest better lablings :-) | 14:41 |
| amotoki | i will talk with abishek on it. | 14:41 |
| sc68cal | amotoki: dropdown sounds reasonable to me | 14:41 |
| HenryG | amotoki: Have you posted a review yet? | 14:41 |
| amotoki | HenryG: not yet. will be avaialble in a couple of days. | 14:42 |
| HenryG | amotoki: sounds good. Add me as reviewer so I see it | 14:42 |
| sc68cal | HenryG: ok. I'll try and keep an open mind. But I'm sort of exhausted by the API debate | 14:42 |
| sc68cal | We seem to have it every cycle.... | 14:42 |
| HenryG | sc68cal: Don't worry, it's not really changing any of the work we have achieved. | 14:44 |
| amotoki | BTW, does the list in neutron meeting wiki cover all pending reviews related to IPv6? I am not a specialist of IPv6 but i can. | 14:45 |
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| sc68cal | yes it usually has a up to date list. | 14:46 |
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| amotoki | thanks | 14:46 |
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| HenryG | sc68cal: Not sure what else is on the agenda, but we should point out the bug list. | 14:47 |
| HenryG | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bugs?field.tag=ipv6 | 14:47 |
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| HenryG | Several new bugs have been filed. | 14:48 |
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| sc68cal | thanks f | 14:49 |
| sc68cal | *for the reminder | 14:49 |
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| sc68cal | if there isn't anything else, I'll see everyone next week! | 14:57 |
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| sc68cal | #endmeeting | 14:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit is offline for project renames. ETA 1645." | 14:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 19 14:58:22 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-08-19-14.06.html | 14:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-08-19-14.06.txt | 14:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-08-19-14.06.log.html | 14:58 |
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| bauzas | #startmeeting gantt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 19 15:00:05 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is bauzas. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:00 |
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| bauzas | hi, who's here for discussing nova scheduler efforts ? | 15:00 |
| mspreitz | me | 15:00 |
| bauzas | n0ano is having a meeting conflict so I'll be chairing today | 15:01 |
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| bauzas | ok, still waiting one more min | 15:02 |
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| jaypipes | o/ | 15:04 |
| jaypipes | hi folks | 15:04 |
| jaypipes | sorry late | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | no problem, we haven't yet started | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | only mspreitz and me seem to be present today :) | 15:04 |
| mspreitz | and Jay | 15:04 |
| bauzas | was talking to jaypipes :) | 15:04 |
| bauzas | ok, I guess we can start then | 15:05 |
| * jaypipes asked ndipanov to hop in here. | 15:05 | |
| bauzas | little agenda, but still :) | 15:05 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: cool thanks | 15:05 |
| * ndipanov lands | 15:05 | |
| jaypipes | is PaulMurray still on holiday? | 15:05 |
| jaypipes | and where's Mr. Moustache? | 15:05 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: seems so | 15:05 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: my sources tell me that Paul is somewhere in France | 15:05 |
| jaypipes | darn Europeans with all your vacation :P | 15:05 |
| ndipanov | haha | 15:05 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: so I suspect that he liked so much the country that he won't be there for years | 15:06 |
| jaypipes | hehe | 15:06 |
| bauzas | n0ano is having administrative tasks IIIUC | 15:06 |
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| jaypipes | well, he'll be there i November :) | 15:06 |
| bauzas | anyway, let's start | 15:06 |
| Yathi | hi | 15:06 |
| bauzas | Yathi: \o | 15:06 |
| bauzas | #topic Forklift Status | 15:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Forklift Status (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:07 | |
| bauzas | so much fun here | 15:07 |
| bauzas | so, basically, a quick status, as usual | 15:07 |
| bauzas | https://review.openstack.org/82778 and https://review.openstack.org/104556 are identified as priorities for J-3 reviews | 15:08 |
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| bauzas | still waiting approvals tho | 15:08 |
| bauzas | both of them are related to bp/scheduler-lib stuff | 15:08 |
| bauzas | another bp is on-going | 15:09 |
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| bauzas | with the spec to be validated | 15:09 |
| bauzas | https://review.openstack.org/89893 | 15:09 |
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| bauzas | changes have been proposed, https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:bp/isolate-scheduler-db,n,z | 15:09 |
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| jaypipes | bauzas: I have reservations about some of the code in those two patches. will review with comments today. | 15:10 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: sure, please do | 15:10 |
| bauzas | about isolate-scheduler-db, the main concern is about its usage of ERT (Extensible Resource Tracker) | 15:10 |
| ndipanov | I do as well but mine are well known :) | 15:10 |
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| bauzas | ndipanov: :) | 15:11 |
| ndipanov | although not sure it;s the 2 patches I am referring to | 15:11 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: my concerns also revolve around ERT. | 15:11 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: actually, let me restate... | 15:11 |
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| bauzas | ndipanov: it's not the same bp | 15:11 |
| ndipanov | then nothing... carry on | 15:12 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: the 2 formers are creating a new client | 15:12 |
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| ndipanov | haven't looked at those | 15:12 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: sure, please do | 15:12 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: my concerns around the isolate scheduer DB patches is that the fundamentals of the API -- the API structure and the parameters passed between conductor/api and the scheduler -- need to be cleaned up before creating a client lib. And the ERT stuff made the interfaces worse than they already were. | 15:12 |
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| bauzas | I opened a thread in -dev ML for discussions also http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-August/043466.html | 15:12 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: by creating client lib, you also refer to bp/scheduler-lib ? | 15:13 |
| bauzas | s/creating/saying | 15:14 |
| ndipanov | I could not possibly agree more with jaypipes | 15:14 |
| jaypipes | yes, I will try to reply to the ML. I am stepping over some toes with my comments, though, and am treading a tightrope between comments and antagonism. | 15:14 |
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| jaypipes | bauzas: creating client lib == https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82778/ | 15:14 |
| bauzas | sooooo | 15:14 |
| bauzas | sounds like we opened the Pandore box | 15:15 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: well, technically ERT opened it. :P | 15:15 |
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| ndipanov | jaypipes, I really don't want to be antagonistic as well - but if we get to stall for one cycle and get things right(er) based on real feedback - it's a net win for gantt imho | 15:15 |
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| jaypipes | ndipanov: I agree (that's actually been what I said repeatedly in Oregon as well). | 15:16 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: hence the plan we discussed | 15:16 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: I mean, we identified some work to do | 15:16 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: yes, agreed. | 15:16 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: for instance, I am 100% supportive of the removal of the direct DB and objects calls from the nova/scheduler/ code | 15:17 |
| bauzas | btw. nice blogpost from mikal here http://www.stillhq.com/openstack/juno/000012.html for summarizing what was discussing in the nova meetup about scheduler | 15:17 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: glad to hear I have sponsors :) | 15:17 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: the issue I have is that the calling structures for the API calls (currently internal, but will become external once the split goes forward) are awkward and not future-proof. | 15:17 |
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| bauzas | that's why we identified the need to iterate on that | 15:18 |
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| bauzas | but if we take the strategy, the work for Kilo is about creating a python lib | 15:18 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: I believe the ERT work is an "anti-iteration" of that, though. | 15:18 |
| bauzas | so that means that external API will be very loosy | 15:18 |
| mspreitz | you mean lossy, bad? | 15:19 |
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| bauzas | mspreitz: uh, my bad | 15:19 |
| bauzas | mspreitz: I mean, that will be very lightweight | 15:19 |
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| bauzas | so, my concerns are about the alternatives | 15:20 |
| bauzas | I'm not fully pro-ERT :) | 15:20 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: ndipanov: what are your thoughts on what should be done first ? (I'm not saying "rewrite RT and deliver it in Scheduler" :D ) | 15:20 |
| ndipanov | well | 15:20 |
| ndipanov | this is how I see it | 15:20 |
| ndipanov | if we are going to stic with "optimistic scheduling" | 15:21 |
| bauzas | provided we identified that scheduler needs to have a clear way to get info from other nova bits | 15:21 |
| ndipanov | and even if we are not | 15:21 |
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| bauzas | ndipanov: could you please link again your paper ? | 15:21 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: was pretty much of interest, btw. :) | 15:21 |
| ndipanov | we need a way to agree on what data goes to the scheduler, and after that to the compute nodes | 15:21 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: agreed | 15:21 |
| ndipanov | and what data goes from compute nodes to the scheduler | 15:22 |
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| bauzas | ndipanov: I think the statement of what's required in Nova filters has been done in the sped | 15:22 |
| bauzas | spec | 15:22 |
| ndipanov | and we need to make sure that this data can be retrieved in an efficient manner | 15:22 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: agreed too | 15:22 |
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| bauzas | ndipanov: lemme give you all the spec rst file | 15:23 |
| ndipanov | k | 15:23 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: so you'll see all deps | 15:23 |
| ndipanov | once you go down the road of agreeing on data | 15:23 |
| bauzas | (at least the ones I identified, I'm not bugproof :) ) | 15:23 |
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| ndipanov | I think you will see that RT will need to live in the scheduler likely even though it will be called in computes | 15:23 |
| Yathi | have you considered keeping the data outside of scheduler completely as a external db service | 15:23 |
| bauzas | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/89893/11/specs/juno/isolate-scheduler-db.rst | 15:23 |
| ndipanov | in case we do optimistic scheduling | 15:24 |
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| ndipanov | which is what we do now - no locking in the sched, but may retry on computes | 15:24 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: I was seeing RT as a client for updating the Scheduler | 15:24 |
| bauzas | ie. RT and Scheduler need to have same view | 15:24 |
| bauzas | and RT pushes updates to Scheduler | 15:25 |
| bauzas | so, even if Scheduler goes stale, it goes back to RT for claiming with the correct values | 15:25 |
| bauzas | is johnthetubaguy around ? | 15:25 |
| ndipanov | what jaypipes was proposing with one of his POCs is to not do claims and retries on the host | 15:26 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: yeah, I know | 15:26 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: I was just mentioning another approach which was to keep claims (and RT) in Compute | 15:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: I am semi-available but behind on my email | 15:27 |
| jaypipes | ndipanov: well, it was proposing to do a final retry/check on the host, but do claims (and return those claims over the Schedule API) in the scheduler itself. | 15:27 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: cool, we're just debating on how the RT/Scheduler thing is articulating | 15:27 |
| ndipanov | jaypipes, even better | 15:27 |
| ndipanov | that this would totally be an implementation detail of the resource tracker | 15:27 |
| jaypipes | ndipanov: so we do a tight loop on the scheduler side, with optimistic locking on the compute node resources, and then just do a retry/exception logic on the compute node itself. | 15:28 |
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| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: this sounds like what we badly called two-phase commit before, or did I miss understand the proposal? | 15:28 |
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| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: ah, your loop is inside the scheduler, not in the conductor | 15:29 |
| bauzas | #link http://eurosys2013.tudos.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/paper/Schwarzkopf.pdf | 15:29 |
| jaypipes | johnthetubaguy: no, no 2-phase commit at all. | 15:29 |
| ndipanov | jaypipes, do link that patch here :) | 15:29 |
| jaypipes | johnthetubaguy: right. the retry claim loop is entirely in the scheduler. | 15:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: honestly what we called was't two phase commit either | 15:29 |
| jaypipes | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103598/ | 15:29 |
| jaypipes | johnthetubaguy: yes, understood :) | 15:30 |
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| jaypipes | anyway, the above PoC code was just that.. for demo purposes. It includes a bunch of code that shows how to model resources properly without ERT too. | 15:30 |
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| ndipanov | ah I even starred it | 15:31 |
| jaypipes | it really should be broken down into two parts: | 15:31 |
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| jaypipes | a) changing the scheduler APIs to use resource models and a real class (no nested dicts) for modeling requested resources, launch policies, and conditions | 15:32 |
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| jaypipes | b) having the scheduler do the claim process, not the compute node | 15:32 |
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| ndipanov | the way I see it - you guys need to do a) and b) can come later | 15:33 |
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| ndipanov | but a) is something that needs to be done or we will regret it | 15:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: one alternative is to move all claims to the conductor, then see how they fix into the scheduler, where possible? but maybe thats more work than we need | 15:33 |
| jaypipes | right, that's what I've been saying. and doing a) after a split is gonna just be painful | 15:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: just thinking of resize claims vs boot cliams, but maybe that split is silly | 15:33 |
| ndipanov | johnthetubaguy, you need all the data that sched had to do either | 15:34 |
| jaypipes | yeah | 15:34 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, ignore me I think, straight to scheduler makes more sense, its a given slot you are trying to reserver either way around | 15:34 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: correct me if I'm wrong, but a) is just stopping sending blobs ? | 15:35 |
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| jaypipes | well, look, what I've been saying is that we need to get these resource models and resource/launch request models done first, then work on claim stuff. The problem with ERT is that it throws away good resource modeling in favor of yet more nested dicts of stuff. | 15:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | ndipanov: so in the back of my head, its keeping the single scheduler running fast, so giving it less work to do, but really we need to make multiple schedulers work, and frankly I had bet on this claim process on the compute being the locking mechanism to fix that, so this fits those two things together nicely | 15:35 |
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| ndipanov | jaypipes, and also does not provide any way to go from: this was requested by the user-> this is the data we all see | 15:37 |
| jaypipes | yup | 15:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: so I see the current ERT as a small step towards refactoring the existing code, not a finished thing, we need to split up the big blob of code into smaller chunks where is clear what you do to add new resources, and agreed we need something better than random dicts | 15:37 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: +1 | 15:37 |
| jaypipes | johnthetubaguy: sorry, I disagree. I see at as a step backwards. | 15:37 |
| ndipanov | johnthetubaguy, as for the claims being on compute - I don't think it's a bad design | 15:37 |
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| ndipanov | but what is bad design - is that there is no clear way to do the same thing in sched and in the claim | 15:38 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: I mean, I can understand that nested dicts are evil, but why not consider ERT updating resource models ? | 15:38 |
| mspreitz | Those of us who want to make joint decisions will need a way to make joint claims | 15:38 |
| ndipanov | without doing select * from join...join... | 15:38 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: hence the idea that RT and Scheduler should have same modezl | 15:39 |
| jaypipes | ndipanov: I do. the placement engine needs to have a holistic view of the system's resources, and having claims handled on the compute node means the placement engine has out-of-date info and cannot make quick decisions (must rely on retry exceptions being raised from the compute) | 15:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: I think agree about your issues with the interface, I just saw that as something we need to improve and evolve to a strict versioned system, there are certainly safer ways down that path for the same kind of code split | 15:39 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: because the thing that is extensible about ERT does not need to be extensible? :) | 15:39 |
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| ndipanov | jaypipes, that is fair bu that is a design decision, and one we can walk away from for a better desing (less trade-offs) - and orthogonal to the idea of data modeling (and querying) | 15:40 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: resources don't need to be extensible. they need to be properly modeled. | 15:40 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: extensible is just another word for on-demand | 15:40 |
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| jaypipes | bauzas: no... | 15:40 |
| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: I want to be able to reduce the reported resources to a bare minimum for my filters, but lets not try go there | 15:40 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: extensible, in the case of ERT, means resources are classes that are loaded as plugins in stevedore, and that is totally useless IMO | 15:40 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: instead, we need to properly model resources that we know are used in Nova: cpus, memory, NUMA placement, disk, ect | 15:41 |
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| bauzas | and aggregates, flavors, instances... | 15:41 |
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| jaypipes | bauzas: and making those resources "plugins" does not make those things suddenly proper models. in fact, it makes it even more loosely defined and non-standardized/inconsistently-applied | 15:42 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: ok, let's ban the word "plugins" and replace it with "classes" | 15:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: yeah, I wish that big wasn't implemented already, its the ability to reduce the traffic to a minimum that I would like, and prehaps only reporting the deltas does that anyway, but maybe lets not go there right now, I love the claims discussion | 15:42 |
| mspreitz | NUMA placement is not a resource... it is the observation that you can not factor a node's resources into orthogonal sets | 15:42 |
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| mspreitz | orthogonal dimensions | 15:43 |
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| dansmith | johnthetubaguy: I'm not really following this closely, but I too worry about it being *more* work to go from ERT to versioned/stable data than it would be from what we had before | 15:43 |
| jaypipes | mspreitz: no, that is not correct. if an instance consumes a certain socket/core/thread, it is consumed as a whole. | 15:43 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dansmith: yeah, thats a good point, it seemed easier in my head, but happy to bow to the consensus on that | 15:44 |
| ndipanov | mspreitz, not sure I follow... | 15:44 |
| bauzas | so should we consider to make use of what we already version ? | 15:44 |
| bauzas | ie. update Scheduler with objects ? | 15:44 |
| dansmith | johnthetubaguy: I went from "on board" when it used objects, to "meh" when it didn't, and made the slow slide to -1 over the course of watching it | 15:44 |
| mspreitz | never mind, I was thinking of a more general kind of NUMA, I guess | 15:45 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: yes, definitely, but there's a number of things that are not objects -- for example, a "LaunchRequest" and a "Resource" (and subclasses) are not objects yet. | 15:45 |
| ndipanov | in the sence where it defines access times/bandwith that you could then somehow schedule on? | 15:45 |
| ndipanov | mspreitz, ^ | 15:45 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: what do you mean by LaunchRequest ? | 15:46 |
| bauzas | and a ComputeNode is a resource | 15:46 |
| ndipanov | bauzas, I assume all the data we need but don't have in a single place right now | 15:46 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: the thing currently called "request_spec" in the scheduler APIs. | 15:46 |
| ndipanov | like filter_specs and requset_spec | 15:46 |
| ndipanov | yes that | 15:46 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: but made into a real class, not a random set of nested dicts. | 15:46 |
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| ndipanov | jaypipes, +1000 | 15:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: +1 | 15:47 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: I was expecting/fearing this answer... | 15:47 |
| ndipanov | ok +1 | 15:47 |
| jaypipes | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103598/4/nova/placement/__init__.py <-- see PlacementRequest class. | 15:47 |
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| mspreitz | ndipanov: I was thinking of NUMA as referring to non-uniform access to main memory; I think the discussion here is focusing only on cache, which is bound to core | 15:47 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: don't fear the reaper. | 15:47 |
| dansmith | lol | 15:47 |
| bauzas | ok, time is running fast (for the reaper too) | 15:47 |
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| jaypipes | bauzas: don't fear the reaper. | 15:48 |
| jaypipes | gah... | 15:48 |
| jaypipes | up key | 15:48 |
| bauzas | we need to somewhat conclude on that topic, even if the the last topic is open discussion | 15:48 |
| bauzas | so | 15:48 |
| bauzas | wrt what has been discussed | 15:48 |
| mspreitz | needs more cowbells | 15:48 |
| ndipanov | bauzas, that's what I've been trying to say all along - for me without this (modeling data first) - we are just postponing the pain | 15:49 |
| jaypipes | mspreitz: ++ :) | 15:49 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: do you agreed on finding some time to discuss with me about a real *change* ? | 15:49 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: jaypipes: I like the retry loop for gaining claims living inside the scheduler, for the record | 15:49 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: of course, it will deserve a spec... | 15:49 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: absolutely. that's why I keep showing up here :) | 15:49 |
| mspreitz | I do have one thing for opens, or ML | 15:49 |
| bauzas | ok so | 15:49 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: I just think ERT makes it harder to get to where we need to be. | 15:50 |
| mspreitz | I'd like to tighten up the arguments around smart or solver scheduler | 15:50 |
| bauzas | #action bauzas and jaypipes to propose a resource model for scheduler | 15:50 |
| bauzas | bing. | 15:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: dansmith: I guess thats the point of contention, is ERT a step backwards or forwards | 15:50 |
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| * ndipanov supports that and will even help if it's after thursday | 15:50 | |
| jaypipes | ++ | 15:51 |
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| bauzas | ok, happy us, we have an action | 15:51 |
| jaypipes | johnthetubaguy: ndipanov and I are pretty strong on the backwards side. | 15:51 |
| bauzas | I'm proposing to discuss on ERT when PaulMurray is back | 15:51 |
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| ndipanov | yeah - I think it opens us up to more pain later for skimping on proper design now | 15:51 |
| dansmith | yep | 15:52 |
| bauzas | at least not reverting his change until he can somewhat discuss | 15:52 |
| mspreitz | My opinion is that the central logic can be very generic: for each resource you have capacity and demands. Could be handled with dicts. | 15:52 |
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| jaypipes | bauzas: yes, I agree completely with waiting for Paul to be back. | 15:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: dansmith: right, I kinda thought it was a baby step forward, all be it with some unfortunate baggage, but happy to go with the majority on this, I agree there are other much easier routes forward, just this one had effort on it already | 15:52 |
| dansmith | johnthetubaguy: cool | 15:52 |
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| bauzas | ... well, at least until Frogs free an English from jail | 15:52 |
| bauzas | ok, next topic so | 15:53 |
| bauzas | 7 mins left | 15:53 |
| bauzas | #topic open discussion | 15:53 |
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| bauzas | mspreitz: ? | 15:53 |
| mspreitz | ok... | 15:53 |
| mspreitz | I wonder if we can separate the issues of more sophisticated placement criteria from the issue of simultaneous vs. sequential | 15:53 |
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| mspreitz | I also wonder if Yathi has a runtime complexity argument in favor of simultaneous | 15:54 |
| ndipanov | bauzas, as for the paper that I linked to you the otehr day just google "google omega paper" | 15:54 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: I gave the link in that discussion | 15:54 |
| bauzas | :) | 15:54 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: see ^ | 15:54 |
| mspreitz | That is, I think we can do sophisticated placement criteria with scheduler hints, if we are willing to accept sequential solving. | 15:54 |
| mspreitz | The argument about simultaneous vs. sequential solving is a possibly separable thing | 15:55 |
| mspreitz | Yathi: are you still here? | 15:55 |
| ndipanov | mspreitz, sequential as - we have a queue and some kind of a lock on all resources | 15:55 |
| bauzas | mspreitz: I think that's a good question which deserves to rediscuss about Solver Scheduler bp | 15:55 |
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| Yathi | hi yes | 15:55 |
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| mspreitz | by sequential I mean how we do it now, wtih no attempt to gather a bunch of things together for a joint placement decision | 15:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | ndipanov: hmm, interesting, thanks | 15:56 |
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| Yathi | simultaneous gives you a way to cover a unified view which could be lost when done sequentially | 15:56 |
| ndipanov | johnthetubaguy, of course not all of that applies here - but it does make a nice taxonomy of differen sched designs and their tradeoffs | 15:56 |
| mspreitz | I want to be precise about the loss | 15:56 |
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| mspreitz | one loss is this: you risk picking a poorer solution | 15:56 |
| bauzas | Yathi: simultaneous would possibly require to see a locking mechanism | 15:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | ndipanov: right, thats always handy, shared terminology, | 15:57 |
| mspreitz | another possible loss is this: you spend more time solving | 15:57 |
| mspreitz | I want to understand if the second is so | 15:57 |
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| ndipanov | I especially liked the 2 level approach where you have the resource master and the schedulers that see a subset of resources | 15:57 |
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| ndipanov | that the master let's them see | 15:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | mspreitz: one you do additions and substractions, you end up having to do both I guess, so maybe we do sequentially first? | 15:57 |
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| johnthetubaguy | ndipanov: thats what cells does today (all be it badly) | 15:58 |
| jaypipes | johnthetubaguy: correct. | 15:58 |
| jaypipes | johnthetubaguy: sharding vs. unified view. | 15:58 |
| Yathi | anything that will not result in a loss can be handled sequentialy i agree | 15:58 |
| mspreitz | johnthetubaguy: I could easily see a roadmap that starts with more sophisticated placement criteria and switches from sequential to simultaneous later | 15:58 |
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| Yathi | but these will not increase solving time when done simultaneoulsy either | 15:58 |
| bauzas | mspreitz: IMHO, simultaneous needs to be covered out of Nova | 15:58 |
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| bauzas | mspreitz: because I'm seeing it as something asking for a "lease", and I think you know what I'm seeing | 15:59 |
| mspreitz | I am kinda lost in the cross conversation | 15:59 |
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| mspreitz | can we pls follow up in the ML? | 15:59 |
| bauzas | mspreitz: sure, open a thread | 15:59 |
| mspreitz | ok | 15:59 |
| Yathi | sure | 15:59 |
| jaypipes | ++ | 15:59 |
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| bauzas | folks, thanks for your help, much appreciated | 16:00 |
| jaypipes | ty bauzas :) | 16:00 |
| ndipanov | bauzas, np | 16:00 |
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| bauzas | see you next week, and jaypipes don't plan to take vacations soon :) | 16:00 |
| ndipanov | thank you for caring about this | 16:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | jaypipes: the cells sharding is more useful for "soft" people reasons like isolating infrastructure into like-typed failure zones as you add capacity, so you can spot failure patterns more easily, etc | 16:00 |
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| bauzas | bye all | 16:00 |
| bauzas | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit is offline for project renames. ETA 1645." | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 19 16:00:39 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-08-19-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-08-19-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-08-19-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
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| primemin2sterp | #startmeeting hyper-v | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 19 16:00:57 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is primemin2sterp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)" | 16:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v' | 16:01 |
| primemin2sterp | hmm | 16:01 |
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| primemin2sterp | seems i have a couple nicks going on | 16:01 |
| primemin2sterp | luis_fdez: hi luis | 16:02 |
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| primeministerp | luis_fdez: much better | 16:03 |
| primeministerp | ociuhandu: hi tavi | 16:04 |
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| primeministerp | ociuhandu: is alex joining? | 16:04 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: hey there | 16:05 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: ping? | 16:06 |
| ociuhandu | hi all | 16:06 |
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| primeministerp | ociuhandu: i believe alex is having irc issues | 16:06 |
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| ociuhandu | primeministerp: he’s restarting irc client | 16:06 |
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| alexpilotti | hi guys! | 16:07 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: great | 16:07 |
| primeministerp | let's begin | 16:07 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: development updates first? | 16:07 |
| alexpilotti | sure | 16:07 |
| primeministerp | #topic development updates | 16:08 |
| alexpilotti | so there’s quite a list of patches on review now | 16:08 |
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| alexpilotti | and a few merged lately | 16:08 |
| alexpilotti | so BPs: soft reboot, | 16:09 |
| alexpilotti | and console log | 16:09 |
| alexpilotti | are getting some review now | 16:09 |
| alexpilotti | they are marked as medium | 16:09 |
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| primeministerp | good | 16:09 |
| alexpilotti | all teh Cinder stuff is blocked | 16:09 |
| primeministerp | that's hopeful | 16:09 |
| primeministerp | yes I'm aware | 16:09 |
| primeministerp | tavi and I were discussing this morning | 16:09 |
| alexpilotti | as we’ll discuss soon | 16:09 |
| alexpilotti | and there are quite some bug fixes coming from additional Tempest test runs that we posted recently | 16:10 |
| primeministerp | awesome | 16:10 |
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| alexpilotti | teh good news is that the list of exclusions is down to an almost insignificant amount | 16:10 |
| primeministerp | and those changes will be added to the existing tempest runs on every commit? | 16:10 |
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| alexpilotti | and this can reflect in the CI as well | 16:10 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: i.e. livemigration and such | 16:11 |
| alexpilotti | we need to | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | I know I want to make sure we're turning them back on | 16:11 |
| alexpilotti | to do that we need 2 Hyper-V nodes as we planned from day 1 | 16:11 |
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| alexpilotti | and a DC | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | which we already have | 16:11 |
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| alexpilotti | can be a single one for all the hyper-v servers | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | o | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | the dc | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | is needed | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | let | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | 's get on that this week | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | I'll work w/ vijay and tim | 16:11 |
| alexpilotti | see email I sent to the CI folks yesterday | 16:12 |
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| primeministerp | yes | 16:12 |
| primeministerp | I saw it | 16:12 |
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| alexpilotti | if we get this running, we’ll be the first CI running live migration tests :-) | 16:12 |
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| primeministerp | let's get it going asap | 16:12 |
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| alexpilotti | so teh list of patches is quite long, I don’t think it’s worth going through all of them now | 16:13 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: i'll touch base w/ the rest of the team and work on getting a dc | 16:13 |
| alexpilotti | cool | 16:13 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: that's fine | 16:13 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: let's chat cinder testing too | 16:13 |
| alexpilotti | ah, I have some scripts that will help, but we can talk about this later | 16:14 |
| primeministerp | ok | 16:14 |
| primeministerp | that's fine also | 16:14 |
| alexpilotti | kerberos constrained delegation, etc | 16:14 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: can we use that instead of a dc? | 16:14 |
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| alexpilotti | we could use Samba 4.1 | 16:14 |
| alexpilotti | but still a DC | 16:14 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: yep | 16:14 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: we might get some love from the samba folks if we do | 16:14 |
| alexpilotti | the Hyper-V API refuse to enable live migration w/o domain membership | 16:15 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: neil was just with them a month back or so | 16:15 |
| alexpilotti | there’s a thread on the ML on this topic | 16:15 |
| alexpilotti | they’re willing to help | 16:15 |
| primeministerp | let's touch base after this | 16:15 |
| alexpilotti | I tried some time ago w Samba 4 beta | 16:15 |
| primeministerp | to discuss | 16:15 |
| alexpilotti | so it’s worth IMO giving it another shot now | 16:15 |
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| alexpilotti | ah, even most Nova reviews are blocked due to the current CI failure | 16:16 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: yep i'm aware, tavi said the new image is being tested now | 16:16 |
| alexpilotti | sorry from jumping back and forth between the topics :-) | 16:16 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: fluid thought | 16:17 |
| primeministerp | keep it dynamic | 16:17 |
| primeministerp | ;) | 16:17 |
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| primeministerp | ociuhandu: with the change in sku can we still get something on the cinder side today | 16:18 |
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| ociuhandu | primeministerp: we need to rebuild the image using the datacenter edition | 16:18 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: cinder ^ | 16:18 |
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| alexpilotti | ok | 16:18 |
| primeministerp | ociuhandu: thx | 16:18 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: anything to add | 16:19 |
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| alexpilotti | we’ll run local tempest tests as soon as we are done w the compute side | 16:20 |
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| alexpilotti | and post the logs as they ask | 16:20 |
| primeministerp | ok | 16:20 |
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| alexpilotti | it’s not that easy but better than just waiting | 16:20 |
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| primeministerp | hopefully the actual test runs will be ready by the end of the week | 16:20 |
| primeministerp | ociuhandu: is there any issues w/ the hardware? | 16:20 |
| primeministerp | ociuhandu: the servers that allocated | 16:20 |
| primeministerp | ociuhandu: I can have celso help if needed | 16:21 |
| ociuhandu | primeministerp: afaik there were some servers dedicated to the cinder side, never actually tested them yet | 16:21 |
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| primeministerp | ociuhandu: can you find out if they are as needed so we can rebuild them asap if neeced | 16:21 |
| primeministerp | er needed | 16:21 |
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| ociuhandu | primeministerp: once I finish the ci image update and resume the other tests | 16:22 |
| primeministerp | ociuhandu: thx | 16:22 |
| primeministerp | ociuhandu: if you let me know where they are I'll have celso check them out for you | 16:22 |
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| ociuhandu | primeministerp: can you sink with Tim on that? he “reallocated” them | 16:23 |
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| primeministerp | ociuhandu: ok | 16:23 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: ok I'm good for now | 16:24 |
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| primeministerp | lots to do | 16:24 |
| primeministerp | let's close it and follow up on the tasks discussed | 16:24 |
| primeministerp | #endmeeting | 16:24 |
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| alexpilotti | tx guys bye! | 16:24 |
| ociuhandu | bye all | 16:25 |
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| boris-42 | #startmeeting Rally | 17:04 |
| openstack | boris-42: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress. Use #endmeeting first. | 17:04 |
| boris-42 | primeministerp you should end meeting | 17:04 |
| boris-42 | primeministerp ^^ | 17:05 |
| boris-42 | #endmeeting | 17:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit is offline for project renames. ETA 1645." | 17:05 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 19 17:05:09 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:05 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2014/hyper_v.2014-08-19-16.00.html | 17:05 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2014/hyper_v.2014-08-19-16.00.txt | 17:05 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2014/hyper_v.2014-08-19-16.00.log.html | 17:05 |
| boris-42 | #startmeeting Rally | 17:05 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 19 17:05:24 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:05 | |
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| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:05 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 rediskin ping | 17:05 |
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| coolsvap | hello | 17:07 |
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| boris-42 | Hi all | 17:08 |
| temujin | hi | 17:08 |
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| rook | Hey | 17:09 |
| RainbowBastion | Hi | 17:09 |
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| boris-42 | Okay let's start | 17:10 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Making a small virtual summit | 17:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Making a small virtual summit (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:11 | |
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| boris-42 | guys what do you think if we make in hangout mini summit? | 17:11 |
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| boris-42 | e.g. 2 days where we can discuss interesting stuff | 17:11 |
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| coolsvap | boris-42, +1, when are we planning this, I am okay with sometime around mid-sept | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | coolsvap probably mid-august? | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | coolsvap mid september will be quite close to openstack summit | 17:13 |
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| coolsvap | boris-42, its already Aug 19 maybe around second week of sept 9,10 | 17:14 |
| boris-42 | coolsvap oh shii | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | =) | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | coolsvap okay 9,10 september seems ok | 17:15 |
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| boris-42 | coolsvap we wil have time to prepare docs for discussion | 17:15 |
| coolsvap | boris-42, yup | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | olkonami temujin rook what do you think ? | 17:16 |
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| olkonami | sept 9,10 is ok for me | 17:16 |
| rook | is this a virtual event? | 17:16 |
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| boris-42 | rook yep | 17:17 |
| boris-42 | rook just a hangout that can be join by everybody | 17:17 |
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| rook | boris-42 I am good with the September dates. | 17:17 |
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| boris-42 | marcoemorais harlowja ^ | 17:18 |
| temujin | think, that's all right for such event | 17:18 |
| harlowja | boris-42 cool | 17:18 |
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| harlowja | boris-42 coasterz i think i'm fine with sept 9,10 | 17:19 |
| harlowja | oops, should be coolsvap | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | harlowja ok great | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | it will be great opportunity to collect user expireicne | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | and to dicuss how to cover more use cases | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | okay let's move to next topic | 17:20 |
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| boris-42 | #topic "rally info" command | 17:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to ""rally info" command (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:20 | |
| boris-42 | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102853/ | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | ^ This is the start of long road | 17:20 |
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| boris-42 | where you will be able by running CLI commands to get all interesting infromation | 17:21 |
| boris-42 | so this is first step | 17:21 |
| boris-42 | "rally info find NovaServers" will print it's docstring | 17:21 |
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| boris-42 | as well I think that in future it should print available benchmarks | 17:21 |
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| boris-42 | ally info find NovaServers.boot_and_delete_server will print detailed info about benchmark and what arguments it accepts (if this info is presented in code) | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | so we should improve quality of some doc strings | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | and work on usability of this comamnd | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | e.g. listing stuff, and find that supports regexp and so on | 17:23 |
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| boris-42 | rook coolsvap k4n0 harlowja olkonami temujin ^ | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | any thoughts? | 17:24 |
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| coolsvap | boris-42, agreed we need to work on doc strings if we want to increase its usability | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | coolsvap yep so probably we need to add blueprint | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | coolsvap like we have for tests | 17:25 |
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| boris-42 | #action add blueprint for improving doc strings in benchmarks | 17:25 |
| coolsvap | boris-42, yup | 17:25 |
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| boris-42 | okay let's move to next topic | 17:27 |
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| boris-42 | #topic generic cleanup | 17:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "generic cleanup (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:27 | |
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| boris-42 | Okay we are still fighting | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | to get clean up work in every case in any case | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | so to do that rediskin is refactoring current cleanup context | 17:28 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin are you here? | 17:28 |
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| boris-42 | okay I'll try to cover most important points | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | Split admin & user (cleanup) already done. This is required case we are going to support benchmarking withou admin access | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | cause* | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | And it's already done | 17:31 |
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| boris-42 | The second thing is to create and extensible framework for adding new resources to cleanup | 17:31 |
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| boris-42 | So users will just specify some class and implement 1-2 methods | 17:31 |
| boris-42 | that cleanup single resource | 17:31 |
| boris-42 | and cleanup context will know how to use these mini-resource cleanup's | 17:32 |
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| boris-42 | and do all logic with limiting speed of resource deletion | 17:32 |
| boris-42 | and repeat in case of failuers | 17:32 |
| boris-42 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/113536/ | 17:33 |
| boris-42 | there is already patch that remove part of crap ^ | 17:33 |
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| boris-42 | And as well there is third point that should be done | 17:33 |
| boris-42 | it will be quite big | 17:33 |
| boris-42 | it's finish unification of resource names & implement command | 17:34 |
| boris-42 | that will delete all resources with this specifc pattern | 17:34 |
| boris-42 | e.g. rally_<task_uuid>_<uuid> will be the name of resource | 17:34 |
| boris-42 | so we can list all resources and delete one by one | 17:34 |
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| boris-42 | (in any case even if something went wrong with server that is running rally) | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | coolsvap rook harlowja olkonami temujin ^ | 17:35 |
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| harlowja | i'm still a fan of writing a file that has all the things rally created ;) | 17:35 |
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| harlowja | or multiple files... | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | harlowja it will create a big overhead imho | 17:36 |
| harlowja | meh | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | harlowja plus what if something happen with that file | 17:36 |
| harlowja | like aliens take it? | 17:36 |
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| harlowja | or comets hit it? | 17:36 |
| temujin | that's grate idea to rollback changes the benchmark made | 17:36 |
| harlowja | space aliens | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | harlowja yep | 17:37 |
| olkonami | I prefer approach from boris-42 | 17:37 |
| harlowja | ok dokie, up to u guys | 17:37 |
| harlowja | i like AOF for this kind of stuff :-P | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | harlowja making file in case of distributed load | 17:38 |
| harlowja | *append only files | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | harlowja maybe dangours=) | 17:38 |
| harlowja | meh | 17:38 |
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| harlowja | life is dangerous | 17:38 |
| harlowja | i drove my car in today, that was dangerous | 17:38 |
| harlowja | lol | 17:38 |
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| boris-42 | harlowja lol | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | harlowja yep | 17:39 |
| harlowja | :) | 17:39 |
| harlowja | but u know what, i did it! | 17:39 |
| harlowja | amzing, i know | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | harlowja I really don't know we can provide this way with creating resources =) | 17:39 |
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| boris-42 | harlowja and putting them to file | 17:40 |
| boris-42 | harlowja but really not sure that it's better then just don't have file=) | 17:40 |
| harlowja | easier to view when just a bunch of files | 17:40 |
| harlowja | easier to make non-monolothic cleanup scripts | 17:40 |
| harlowja | :-P | 17:40 |
| harlowja | i heard rally is monolothic, lol | 17:40 |
| boris-42 | harlowja me too | 17:40 |
| boris-42 | harlowja too monolothic | 17:40 |
| harlowja | :) | 17:41 |
| rook | lol | 17:41 |
| rook | it is just a bunch of scripts | 17:41 |
| boris-42 | rook rally? | 17:41 |
| harlowja | monolothic godamnit | 17:41 |
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| boris-42 | rook actually it's in one directory so it's monolithic.. | 17:42 |
| harlowja | omg | 17:42 |
| harlowja | crazy | 17:42 |
| rook | lol | 17:42 |
| rook | I spent most of my lunch reading through that thread | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | rook ahaha=) | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | rook I eat already tons of popcorn=) | 17:42 |
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| rook | I don't have a dog in the fight... Just interesting to read the different opinions | 17:43 |
| boris-42 | rook so i really dislike of splitting rally to separated repositories in the way that QA wants | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | it will make development and usage harder | 17:44 |
| lordd_ | well I heard it is unstable and will break your cloud and kill rook's dog | 17:44 |
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| rook | lordd_ you assholes! that is why my dogs keep dying! | 17:45 |
| lordd_ | :D | 17:45 |
| rook | boris-42 can you explain what this split is? | 17:45 |
| boris-42 | lol | 17:45 |
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| boris-42 | rook so they would like to move in separated repository load generators from rally | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | rook scenarios as well in separated | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | rook and script that save data to DB in separeted | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | rook and stuff that generates html with results in separate | 17:46 |
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| harlowja | is there then a script that combines all these back together to form rally, lol | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | harlowja yep | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | harlowja in gates | 17:46 |
| rook | wtf | 17:47 |
| rook | is Tempest handled in this way? | 17:47 |
| boris-42 | rook so and all this to be able to consume these scripts with tempest | 17:47 |
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| boris-42 | rook they would like | 17:47 |
| harlowja | thats like captain planet right, where u combine all the rings and stuff | 17:47 |
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| rook | harlowja: hahaha | 17:47 |
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| boris-42 | harlowja lol | 17:47 |
| lordd_ | lol indeed | 17:48 |
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| boris-42 | so I really don't know how to convince people | 17:48 |
| boris-42 | just to left rally as is | 17:48 |
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| harlowja | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbW5sxyu9bU (captain planet, for those who have no idea wtf i am referring to) | 17:48 |
| boris-42 | harlowja ahaha | 17:49 |
| lordd_ | well, I don't want to be unpopular, but I would like to have an installation method similar to other openstack projects | 17:49 |
| lordd_ | but I suppose this will come with time | 17:49 |
| harlowja | instead of captain planet, it can be captain boris | 17:49 |
| lordd_ | in any case, with Ubuntu, the install script works perfectly | 17:50 |
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| boris-42 | lordd_ installation for what? | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | lordd_ you mean be able to do pip install rally? | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | lordd_ someday someday we will make first rally version | 17:51 |
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| lordd_ | either pip, or OS packaging | 17:51 |
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| lordd_ | but I totally understand why this isn't happening now, and shouldn't be a priority at all | 17:51 |
| boris-42 | lordd_ so yep someday | 17:51 |
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| lordd_ | this rant was only related to the monolithic, scripting, etc.. | 17:52 |
| lordd_ | somebody mentioned because of the installation method | 17:52 |
| boris-42 | lol | 17:52 |
| lordd_ | in any case, please ignore this comments and continue | 17:52 |
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| boris-42 | lordd_ will de if you say=) | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | do* | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | #topic open discussion | 17:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:53 | |
| boris-42 | okay probably somebody want to put some input? | 17:53 |
| lordd_ | I have a question concerning network testing | 17:53 |
| lordd_ | I saw a script example mentioning neutron networks, but that didn't work | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | lordd_ hm what one? | 17:54 |
| lordd_ | sorry, the idea would be to associate nova vms to neutron networks | 17:55 |
| lordd_ | this: | 17:55 |
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| lordd_ | "neutron_network": { | 17:56 |
| lordd_ | "network_cidr": "10.%s.0.0/16", | 17:56 |
| lordd_ | this in theory is context for boot_and_delete_server | 17:56 |
| lordd_ | from NovaServers | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | context? | 17:56 |
| lordd_ | "context": { | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | ah | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | heh there are 2 patches related to this | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103306/ | 17:57 |
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| lordd_ | thanks, I will check on that | 17:58 |
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| boris-42 | lordd_ it hold work actually | 17:58 |
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| boris-42 | lordd_ not sure I didn't test it | 17:58 |
| boris-42 | lordd_ but I'll | 17:58 |
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| lordd_ | ok, next one is to create actual load from benchmarking | 17:58 |
| boris-42 | lordd_ lets' move to rally chat | 17:59 |
| lordd_ | ok, np | 17:59 |
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| boris-42 | cause we need to finish meeting | 17:59 |
| boris-42 | #endmeeting | 17:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit is offline for project renames. ETA 1645." | 17:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 19 17:59:30 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-08-19-17.05.html | 17:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-08-19-17.05.txt | 17:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-08-19-17.05.log.html | 17:59 |
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| dolphm | ayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, fmarco76, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 17:59 |
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| dstanek | o/ | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | o\ | 18:00 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:00 |
| marekd | \o/ | 18:00 |
| ayoung | Oyez Oyez | 18:00 |
| gyee | \o | 18:00 |
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| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 19 18:00:54 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:00 |
| henrynash | hi | 18:00 |
| dolphm | \o/ | 18:01 |
| dolphm | #topic Feature proposal freeze August 21st | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Feature proposal freeze August 21st (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
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| bknudson | that's 2 days from now | 18:01 |
| dolphm | i suspect this is going to be what most of today's meeting is about, but.... FPF is happening! | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | it is technically two days from now, but i want to make sure all the blueprinty stuff that we're shipping in juno is in review today/tomorrow so we can make clear cuts on thursday if necessary | 18:02 |
| dolphm | right now it only looks like a few things are skating close to the deadline | 18:02 |
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| stevemar | o/ | 18:02 |
| dolphm | which requires things to be "spec approved, code complete, and in review" | 18:02 |
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| grantbow | o/ | 18:02 |
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| dolphm | so bp endpoint-policy which has no implementation in review, but has an API review up https://review.openstack.org/#/c/112292/ | 18:03 |
| bknudson | dolphm: it looks pretty staightforward | 18:03 |
| dolphm | henrynash says that should make it? | 18:04 |
| dolphm | bknudson: i hope so! | 18:04 |
| stevemar | it does have that going for it | 18:04 |
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| dolphm | bp non-persistent-tokens has had some updates today - is that still 85/90% going to make it, morganfainberg? | 18:04 |
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| bknudson | morganfainberg: I had some questions about HEAD ops with no GET on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/112292/3/v3/src/markdown/identity-api-v3-os-endpoint-policy.md | 18:04 |
| henrynash | dolphm: so I just posted the backend part of this extension | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | i'd say we'll be in the 90% range | 18:04 |
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| henrynash | https://review.openstack.org/115362 | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, for change of completion. but it's a load of code | 18:05 |
| stevemar | henrynash is awesome, chucks up a patch at 2:04 | 18:05 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, so far like 16 reviews and 1100 lines of change or so | 18:05 |
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| dstanek | henrynash: that was fast! | 18:05 |
| dolphm | henrynash: yay! | 18:05 |
| dolphm | henrynash: so we'll expect (1?) more patch? | 18:05 |
| henrynash | dolphm: yes. I split it into two - backend and then the controller | 18:06 |
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| dolphm | henrynash: that works | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ah i'll take a look | 18:06 |
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| dolphm | are we still doing separate migrate repos? :-/ | 18:06 |
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| dolphm | looking at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/115362/ | 18:07 |
| henrynash | dolphm: it’s all in the extension, so it has its own migrate repo | 18:07 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, separate migrate repos lead to fewer conflicts. I'd like to keep them as the norm | 18:08 |
| dolphm | alrighty | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i think we should revisit that concept in K | 18:09 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, sure | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i think it poses a lot of other associated headaches. but not now | 18:09 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, lets table for now | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, ++ | 18:09 |
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| dolphm | someone, i'm assuming stuart put composite auth support on the agenda, but that would be outside the named integrated release process https://review.openstack.org/#/c/108384/ | 18:09 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, wrong section | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | that was me, was supposed to be one less * | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | :P | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | so, as in "please review it" | 18:10 |
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| dolphm | cool | 18:10 |
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| dolphm | aand... i'm going to do a separate topic for this, but hopefully it'll be quick | 18:10 |
| dolphm | #topic Deprecations in Juno | 18:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Deprecations in Juno (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:10 | |
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| morganfainberg | ooh ooh, token_api | 18:11 |
| dolphm | do we have anything? as of this morning, the bp was blank & not started | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | just tagged a patch to that a few minutes ago | 18:11 |
| bknudson | Identity API V2? | 18:11 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: as opposed to token persistence API? | 18:11 |
| ayoung | referring to auth plugins by method name | 18:11 |
| bknudson | oops, too soon | 18:11 |
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| bknudson | XML? | 18:11 |
| bknudson | do we need to call it out if it's still deprecated? | 18:11 |
| dolphm | bknudson: xml support was deprecated in icehouse | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, the internal `token_api` will be deprecated, but persistence is housed under token_provider_api | 18:11 |
| ayoung | er...make the class name? morganfainberg what exactly did we deprecate there? | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, the idea is no one should ever use token_api.XXXX | 18:12 |
| dolphm | bknudson: i'm going to leave v2 be for the moment - i don't think we totally meet the TC's recommendation on when we can deprecate v2 | 18:12 |
| bknudson | dolphm: y, nova doesn't work with v3 | 18:12 |
| bknudson | nor does auth_token middleware | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, the use of <class>.token_api.<method> | 18:12 |
| dolphm | bknudson: what's missing in auth_token? | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, that massive chain of stuff i've been shuffling around to get us to non-persistence | 18:13 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:13 |
| bknudson | dolphm: it doesn't authenticate using v3... e.g., it doesn't support domains | 18:13 |
| bknudson | specifying the user domain and project domain | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, it doesn't change the underlying code, just managers and controlelrs shouldn't use token_api, let token_provider_api call it's .persistence instead | 18:13 |
| bknudson | for its token | 18:13 |
| dolphm | bknudson: oh from the auth token user's perspective ++ | 18:13 |
| jamielennox | don't i have a patch up for that? | 18:13 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: i believe you do... | 18:13 |
| gyee | jamielennox, yeah, I thought I saw something from you | 18:13 |
| jamielennox | actually maybe i don't, i had something working in testing but i can't see it | 18:14 |
| gyee | bknudson, nova CLI patch is under review | 18:14 |
| bknudson | gyee: the part that I thought I'd get done for nova is to use v3 auth to get the token for its communication with neutron. | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i need to chase down jogo and resolve the policy,json issues in nova. it's a bit of a headache | 18:15 |
| gyee | bknudson, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/105900/ | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, for nova (and this applies to other projectd) to be v3 friendly | 18:15 |
| jogo | morganfainberg: o/ | 18:15 |
| bknudson | I had a spec in nova but I since we're running against the same freeze I told them I wasn't going to get it done for J | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | jogo, post meeting you around/not busy? [~45mins] | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | ? | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | jogo, probably will be quick. | 18:16 |
| jogo | morganfainberg: I think I can squeeze that in | 18:16 |
| bknudson | I should be able to work on it and have it ready soon in K | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | jogo, ok will ping you as soon as we're done | 18:16 |
| jogo | morganfainberg: sounds good | 18:16 |
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| jogo | morganfainberg: thanks | 18:16 |
| gyee | bknudson, what else is missing for Nova? | 18:16 |
| bknudson | it also depends on a new release of some client libs | 18:16 |
| bknudson | gyee: nova needs to be able to use v3 authentication to get a token for its neutronclient stuff | 18:17 |
| Haneef | bknudson: How about service user/service tenant in middleware. That is still v2 | 18:17 |
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| bknudson | Haneef: we were just talking about that... jamielennox said he might have been working on it. | 18:17 |
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| gyee | bknudson, so as long as nova is passing the token to neutronclient we're fine right? | 18:18 |
| jamielennox | yep, i'm not sure why it isn't up already but it works | 18:18 |
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| bknudson | gyee: nova doesn't always pass a token to neutronclient now... it can also pass username + password | 18:18 |
| jamielennox | gyee: nova uses its own auth to talk to neutron not the users | 18:18 |
| jamielennox | no idea why, but it means there are a bunch of options to remove | 18:19 |
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| gyee | oh, you mean like their own auth plugins? | 18:19 |
| jamielennox | gyee: no as in the nova service user | 18:19 |
| bknudson | gyee: it uses neutronclient which accepts username and password | 18:19 |
| bknudson | here was a first stab at the nova work: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/113735/ | 18:20 |
| bknudson | it didn't go well | 18:20 |
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| * gyee speechless | 18:20 | |
| jamielennox | we are lacking at least a way to override the catalog from a plugin/session | 18:21 |
| jamielennox | there was something else as well.... | 18:21 |
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| ayoung | its ok. no one uses neutron anyway | 18:21 |
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| henrynash | ayoung: aahhhhhhh | 18:21 |
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| gyee | lmao | 18:21 |
| bknudson | jamielennox: nova might actually be happier using the service catalog rather than having the endpoint in the config file | 18:22 |
| bknudson | but when it's doing token auth then it will need to get the endpoint/catalog from somewhere. | 18:22 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: i still can't figure out why they are using the nova service user rather than the user token | 18:22 |
| jamielennox | but yes, i would imagine they would be ok with that bit | 18:23 |
| bknudson | jamielennox: it's possible there isn't a case where the nova service user is actually used. | 18:23 |
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| jamielennox | the problem is we still need to honour the old setting if it is present | 18:23 |
| ayoung | "This deal is getting worse all the time! " | 18:23 |
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| dolphm | so, back on topic, it sounds like token_api was the only thing we actually wanted to deprecate as part of bp deprecated-as-of-juno ? :P | 18:24 |
| ayoung | Need to beat on Horizon some more to make sure it can support V3. | 18:25 |
| ayoung | dolphm, and the auth-plugin thing | 18:25 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: was that not already deprecated? | 18:25 |
| ayoung | the use of <class>.token_api.<method> | 18:25 |
| ayoung | not officially | 18:25 |
| ayoung | wasn't even inthe docs that you could do it | 18:25 |
| jamielennox | bknudson, ayoung: on that i did a new version of the endpoint hack: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/90632/ with a WIP follow up review | 18:25 |
| jamielennox | not sure about it though so i'll talk to you both about it post meeting | 18:26 |
| gyee | how do you deprecate something that's not officially documented? | 18:26 |
| gyee | just saying :) | 18:26 |
| dolphm | ayoung: are you volunteering to deprecate that then? | 18:27 |
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| gyee | self deprecation | 18:27 |
| ayoung | dolphm, a deprecation message is in Log now if it is used | 18:27 |
| ayoung | that was morganfainberg 's req to approve the patch | 18:27 |
| dolphm | ayoung: well, that's what i meant by "isn't it already deprecated?" | 18:27 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, ah, misunderstood. | 18:28 |
| dolphm | and then there was some conversation here about the federation API | 18:28 |
| dolphm | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/107325/6/specs/juno/auth-specific-data.rst | 18:28 |
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| dolphm | to deprecate both /v3/OS-FEDERATION/projects and /v3/OS-FEDERATION/domains ? | 18:28 |
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| bknudson | right because jamielennox provides /auth/projects and /auth/domains | 18:29 |
| jamielennox | i think that's a good idea | 18:29 |
| ayoung | works for me. | 18:29 |
| dolphm | even though we basically have to support those forever | 18:29 |
| bknudson | we'll use JSONHome to point clients to the right URL | 18:29 |
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| dolphm | so, basically don't advertise both, ever | 18:30 |
| boris-42 | Hi guys | 18:30 |
| jamielennox | i'll redo that spec and deprecate the federation resources | 18:31 |
| jamielennox | i put up a implementation patch as well | 18:31 |
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| jamielennox | oh - spec was merged already | 18:31 |
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| bknudson | can't change it now. | 18:32 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: i already put it on the deprecation spec | 18:32 |
| ayoung | deprecation can and should be a separate commit anyway | 18:32 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/deprecated-as-of-juno | 18:32 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ++ | 18:33 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: follow the /auth/ implementation with a deprecation patch to OS-FEDERATION? | 18:33 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: yep | 18:33 |
| dolphm | alrighty, that's three things then, and one is already done (ayoung's) | 18:33 |
| dolphm | and morganfainberg's is deep in review | 18:34 |
| dolphm | #topic Email as a first class attribute | 18:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Email as a first class attribute (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:34 | |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/111982/ | 18:34 |
| dolphm | henrynash o/ | 18:34 |
| henrynash | dolphm: so really a couple of questions here | 18:34 |
| bknudson | I thought we just removed the code that even tried to use it (since it would 500) | 18:34 |
| henrynash | we seem to sort-of support it… | 18:35 |
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| bknudson | for what? | 18:35 |
| henrynash | …i.e. LDAP mapping will fill in the email attribute | 18:35 |
| henrynash | and the keystoneclient supports it explicitly | 18:35 |
| bknudson | LDAP mapping can fill in any attribute | 18:35 |
| bknudson | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/90296/ | 18:36 |
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| henrynash | bknudson: we have a specific config variable to control email attribute | 18:36 |
| dolphm | henrynash: first of all, do we need to discuss this in the context of juno or kilo? i'd rather have this conversation in terms of kilo | 18:36 |
| jamielennox | keystoneclient talks about it by name but it just goes into the extra data column | 18:36 |
| henrynash | teh real question is….are we already in danger of supporting PII info ? | 18:36 |
| dolphm | right, keystone itself doesn't have first class support for email | 18:36 |
| bknudson | btw the docs also say that you can filter on email still | 18:36 |
| henrynash | so wondered if we should get a security viewpoint on this | 18:37 |
| dolphm | henrynash: that's a good argument in favor of not supporting email :P | 18:37 |
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| gyee | hanrynash, pii according to which compliance? | 18:37 |
| dolphm | gyee: all of the compliances | 18:37 |
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| bknudson | docs change: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/115330/ | 18:37 |
| bknudson | (it's the wadls) | 18:37 |
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| henrynash | bknudson: all our user entity exampels in the spec also include email | 18:38 |
| dstanek | henrynash: email is traditionally in the PII realm | 18:38 |
| dolphm | bknudson: +1! | 18:38 |
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| henrynash | dolphm: ione option is to pull email from teh idenity_api spec in all places | 18:39 |
| dolphm | henrynash: i'd be in favor of that | 18:39 |
| dolphm | unless there's a strong use case behind the spec | 18:39 |
| bknudson | so what's the proposal? move it from extras column to an email column? | 18:39 |
| dolphm | bknudson: the current proposal is just to add a filter for email - which i'd argue does require making it a real column, yes | 18:40 |
| henrynash | bknudson: no, there’s noneed for that…this was kciked off by looking to impelemt what the spec said taht you can filter on email | 18:40 |
| henrynash | dolphm: technicallyit doesn’t required it….but if it gest used a lot, then you need to | 18:40 |
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| gyee | but you can stash anything in "extra", PII or not | 18:41 |
| dolphm | henrynash: but it's not actually documented as an attribute on the user resource in the spec -- it's just copy pasta in the examples | 18:41 |
| bknudson | I'm worried about giving someone the option to do something that's going to be very inefficient | 18:41 |
| henrynash | dolphm: agreed…it is not listed as an optional attribute | 18:41 |
| henrynash | dolphm: OK…so for Juno…we pull it from the spec…but leave the client and LDAP support as is? | 18:42 |
| bknudson | what's the client support? | 18:42 |
| dstanek | so the implementation (using extras) would download the entire table and record by record serialize JSON to find the match? | 18:42 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: just an 'extra' | 18:42 |
| henrynash | I think we support it in the user entity class | 18:42 |
| henrynash | ? | 18:42 |
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| jamielennox | we support anything that is returned from the server as an attribute on the user object (or any object) | 18:43 |
| bknudson | I was wondering if the client requires email for a new user or has filtering by email or something. | 18:43 |
| dolphm | henrynash: the client support can be undocumented & pushed into **kwargs | 18:43 |
| jamielennox | on creation it's just named in the param list but we don't treat it special | 18:43 |
| dolphm | maybe | 18:43 |
| gyee | henrynash, but compliance is deployment-specific right, if one needs to encrypt/obfuscate a field, roll their own driver | 18:43 |
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| gyee | I would think PII and API are two separate issues | 18:44 |
| henrynash | gyee: well yes, but not sure we should ship something that by default risks security defects | 18:44 |
| dolphm | henrynash: ++ | 18:45 |
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| bknudson | The following data clearly classify as PII: Email address, Login name, screen name, nickname, or handle | 18:45 |
| bknudson | that's from wikipedia | 18:45 |
| gyee | so we are going to encrypt username now | 18:45 |
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| dstanek | bknudson: ++ | 18:45 |
| dstanek | can we not store PII in keystone? | 18:46 |
| henrynash | bknudson: hhmm, user name is PII and we don’t encrypt that | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, an argument to why we should go to id-only in the tokens >.> | 18:46 |
| gyee | security is a process, software is a tool | 18:46 |
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| morganfainberg | dstanek, while username is PII, you don't need to typeically encrypt it, just prevent it leaking out iirc | 18:47 |
| gyee | just like a knife, it can be both a weapon or tool :) | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, same for some of the other PII items. Some do *need* to be encrypted if stored | 18:47 |
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| dolphm | so i think it's fair to say we need to have this discussion outside the scope of Juno :) | 18:48 |
| lbragstad | how do you go about drawing the line though? | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ++ | 18:48 |
| ayoung | #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personally_identifiable_information | 18:48 |
| dolphm | henrynash: re-propose for kilo and we can continue in the spec review? | 18:48 |
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| henrynash | morganfainberg: one thing I wondered was wether we had to leave PII info out of teh collection of users returned in list_users calls | 18:48 |
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| bknudson | I guess I wonder why we would treat email specially... how about allowing filtering on any of the "extras"? | 18:48 |
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| dstanek | morganfainberg: i don't think we would store anything that needed to be encrypted at rest | 18:48 |
| gyee | dolphm, ++, lets talk more on this later | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | lbragstad, i think there are some explicitly listed (depending on the compliance standard) that need it | 18:48 |
| henrynash | dolphm: OK | 18:48 |
| lbragstad | morganfainberg: ok | 18:49 |
| dstanek | this is the doc we used to use when dealing with PII for PCI compliance - http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-122/sp800-122.pdf | 18:49 |
| dolphm | bknudson: because i don't want to expose anything more about 'extras' to the API - extras needs to die | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | lbragstad, what dstanek said, we don't store anything (directly) that needs encryption at rest (i think) | 18:49 |
| bknudson | since we're heading towards federation I'd expect us to leave listing users to the provider. | 18:49 |
| dolphm | we don't need first class support for an undocumented feature that we're never going to be good at supporting | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ++ extras dead = good | 18:49 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:50 |
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| henrynash | dolphm: the ability to store additional info with keystone entities is well used, I think | 18:50 |
| dstanek | dolphm: i had a patch to delete it a while ago because i hated extras | 18:50 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: ++ to killing extras | 18:50 |
| dolphm | dstanek: lol should have put it up! | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, doesn't mean it shouldn't die :P | 18:50 |
| dstanek | dolphm: i doubt it'll be easy to merge now, but if it is i will | 18:51 |
| dolphm | henrynash: having it used at all means we need to be careful about removing it :( | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, maybe support it as an extension with a big "DONT DO THIS" warning block :P | 18:51 |
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| gyee | morganfainberg, make sure no one waits for you in the parking lot after you kill it :D | 18:51 |
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| morganfainberg | gyee, lol | 18:51 |
| dstanek | henrynash: what do people use it for? | 18:51 |
| bknudson | dstanek: email | 18:51 |
| jamielennox | i think maybe we need config option for disable_deprecated which turns deprecations into 404s to let people test this stuf | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, metacloud uses it a lot, tracking cost centers etc, | 18:51 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: ++ | 18:51 |
| dstanek | bknudson: i know that one :-P | 18:52 |
| dolphm | fatal_deprecations = True | 18:52 |
| dolphm | raise 501's or something when you hit a deprecation | 18:52 |
| gyee | ++ | 18:52 |
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| jamielennox | dolphm: yep, doesn't matter what just so that it fails | 18:52 |
| henrynash | dstanek: additioal user info relating to products built on top of OPenStack/Keystone for example | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | wouuld be useful even to see what the gate was using that it shouldn't | 18:52 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: oslo has some sort of support for that from a logging perspective, i forgot what action it took on fatal | 18:53 |
| dolphm | alright, last few minutes: | 18:53 |
| dolphm | #topic OSprofiler & Keystone integration | 18:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OSprofiler & Keystone integration (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:53 | |
| dolphm | boris-42: o/ | 18:53 |
| boris-42 | dolphm hi there | 18:53 |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103368/ | 18:53 |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/114856/ | 18:53 |
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| boris-42 | dolphm I had to rebase python client patch | 18:53 |
| boris-42 | dolphm let me show the sample of trace that we can get with these patches | 18:54 |
| boris-42 | #link http://boris-42.github.io/ngk.html | 18:54 |
| boris-42 | ^ so this is sample of trace that goes through 3 services (nova, glance & keystone) | 18:54 |
| boris-42 | booting VM operation | 18:54 |
| ayoung | boris-42, the assumption is that the middleware would be explicitly added to the pipeline, and not even enabled under normal circumstances, right? | 18:54 |
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| dstanek | dolphm, jamielennox: IIRC setting fatal_deprecations in the config would raise a strange exception | 18:54 |
| boris-42 | ayoung it should be enabled by default | 18:55 |
| ayoung | boris-42, no it shouldn't | 18:55 |
| jamielennox | dstanek: it exists though? | 18:55 |
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| ayoung | security trumps profiling | 18:55 |
| boris-42 | ayoung what kind of security issues? | 18:55 |
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| dstanek | boris-42: i mentioned in one of the reviews that i think the middleware can't be enabled by default | 18:55 |
| * ayoung takes that question as rhetorical | 18:55 | |
| boris-42 | ayoung nope | 18:55 |
| ayoung | boris-42, its a great idea | 18:56 |
| boris-42 | ayoung I really spend half of year | 18:56 |
| ayoung | but not on by default | 18:56 |
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| boris-42 | ayoung to make it possible to keep turned on by default | 18:56 |
| dstanek | in my view it is optional functionality | 18:56 |
| ayoung | yep | 18:56 |
| ayoung | optional, and easy to enable | 18:56 |
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| boris-42 | ayoung it is hard to get it enabled in gates | 18:56 |
| boris-42 | ayoung end if every user will need to turn it on by hand nobody will use it.. | 18:56 |
| boris-42 | ayoung and I really don't see any big issue | 18:57 |
| ayoung | boris, I think you will find that it gets used | 18:57 |
| boris-42 | ayoung with security | 18:57 |
| boris-42 | ayoung really what kind of security ? | 18:57 |
| boris-42 | ayoung only admin can trigger it and only admin can fetch data | 18:57 |
| jamielennox | boris-42: it's not something that will get deployed by hand, this stuff will get added to puppet so enabling across everything shouldn't be hard | 18:57 |
| ayoung | boris-42, I take it you want data from gate? | 18:58 |
| boris-42 | ayoung yep | 18:58 |
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| boris-42 | ayoung in rally perfromance jobs | 18:58 |
| boris-42 | ayoung that you have | 18:58 |
| ayoung | boris-42, then enable it in devstack | 18:58 |
| boris-42 | ayoung so profling + benchmark | 18:58 |
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| boris-42 | ayoung it will take about 1 year | 18:58 |
| bknudson | the profiling stuff just doesn't happen if the client doesn't request it. | 18:58 |
| boris-42 | bknudson +1 | 18:58 |
| boris-42 | bknudson it happens only if admin trigger it | 18:58 |
| boris-42 | bknudson and only for his request | 18:58 |
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| ayoung | boris-42, what you want is devstack, not the rest of the world | 18:59 |
| boris-42 | bknudson even if user knows secret key it won't be able to trigger data | 18:59 |
| dstanek | i'm also not a fan of it automatically configuring itself - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103368/10/bin/keystone-all | 18:59 |
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| boris-42 | dstanek hm but I added CONF option | 18:59 |
| boris-42 | dstanek https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103368/16/keystone/common/profiler.py | 18:59 |
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| bknudson | it logs all the db queries... that's pretty neat | 19:00 |
| boris-42 | bknudson you can add in any place | 19:00 |
| boris-42 | bknudson new points | 19:00 |
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| boris-42 | bknudson e.g. during benchmarking in gates put just any amount of points | 19:00 |
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| boris-42 | bknudson and get them on graph | 19:00 |
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| bknudson | "statement": "SELECT 1", -- pretty exciting stuff | 19:01 |
| dolphm | boris-42: this is a lot of copy/pasting around :( | 19:01 |
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| boris-42 | dolphm ? | 19:01 |
| dolphm | boris-42: i left review comments | 19:01 |
| boris-42 | dolphm about api-paste.ini | 19:01 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, at time | 19:01 |
| boris-42 | dolphm I would prefer to keep it in | 19:01 |
| dolphm | boris-42: you should be pulling your boiler plate text from osprofiler so you don't have to maintain it everywhere | 19:02 |
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| boris-42 | dolphm can we continue in keystone chat? | 19:02 |
| dolphm | yes | 19:02 |
| dolphm | ooh, we're over time | 19:02 |
| dolphm | i had my head in gerrit | 19:02 |
| morganfainberg | yep | 19:02 |
| dolphm | #endmeeting | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit is offline for project renames. ETA 1645." | 19:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 19 19:02:15 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:02 |
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| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-08-19-18.00.html | 19:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-08-19-18.00.txt | 19:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-08-19-18.00.log.html | 19:02 |
| fungi | before we startmeeting, let me fix the channel topic real fast | 19:02 |
| *** ChanServ changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:02 | |
| fungi | that's better | 19:02 |
| anteaya | thanks | 19:02 |
| grantbow | +1 | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 19 19:02:42 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | #link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #link actions from last meeting: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-12-19.02.html | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:03 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:03 |
| grantbow | o/ | 19:03 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:03 |
| wenlock | o/ | 19:03 |
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| dougwig | o/ | 19:03 |
| krtaylor | o/ | 19:03 |
| fungi | hey-o | 19:03 |
| jeblair | jeblair Publish python-jenkins 0.3.3 (last release without pbr) tarball to pypi | 19:03 |
| anteaya | o/ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | i did not do that | 19:03 |
| clarkb | o/ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #action jeblair Publish python-jenkins 0.3.3 (last release without pbr) tarball to pypi | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Specs (jeblair) | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Specs (jeblair) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
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| jeblair | hey, so what with the fact that we're constantly swamped with reviews.... | 19:04 |
| fungi | we should review those | 19:04 |
| jeblair | some projects have taken to highlighting changes that are a priority | 19:04 |
| jeblair | and i thought maybe a good first step for that would be specs | 19:05 |
| fungi | wholeheartedly agree | 19:05 |
| clarkb | ++ | 19:05 |
| jeblair | so these are some specs that are really strategic for what we want to do this cycle (and probably next too :) | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | #link priority spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100363/ | 19:06 |
| jeblair | #link priority spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/99990/ | 19:06 |
| jeblair | #link priority spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/110730/ | 19:06 |
| jeblair | #link priority spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/110793/ | 19:06 |
| jeblair | so if you have to pick some, those would be a good place to start | 19:06 |
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| jeblair | and i think maybe once we have some more specs approved, we might be able to prioritize the reviews that implement those | 19:06 |
| fungi | sounds like a fantastic plan | 19:07 |
| jeblair | i don't know how formal we want to be about this, but i'm guessing that at least nominating these and communicating will probably help us a lot | 19:07 |
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| anteaya | a good start | 19:07 |
| clarkb | yup | 19:07 |
| fungi | part of the problem with review backlog is lack of explicit prioritization. i hope this helps as much as i think it will | 19:08 |
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| jeblair | so anyway, if i've missed something feel free to contact me and i'll consider it. but i also want to keep the count fairly small and manageable | 19:08 |
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| * krtaylor imagines a weighted review assignment to produce a prioritized list | 19:09 | |
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| jeblair | krtaylor: that would be great; we've imagined that for a few years but need a feature in gerrit to store the weight/priority/whatever | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | krtaylor: maybe if the ci report plugin works out, that could be the next step | 19:10 |
| krtaylor | ++ | 19:10 |
| jeblair | #topic email for gerrit third party ci accounts status (anteaya) | 19:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "email for gerrit third party ci accounts status (anteaya) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:10 | |
| anteaya | hello | 19:10 |
| fungi | but add to that wishlist feature, transitive weighting (association with a spec grants similar priority value) | 19:10 |
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| anteaya | so we used to require new gerrit accounts include the email for the gerrit account in the request | 19:11 |
| anteaya | we have now changed that requirement | 19:11 |
| anteaya | #link http://ci.openstack.org/third_party.html#requirements | 19:11 |
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| anteaya | and now require third party gerrit ci accounts to have a wikipage with contact info on it | 19:11 |
| pleia2 | \o/ | 19:11 |
| anteaya | so the question is, how do we transition? | 19:11 |
| jeblair | anteaya: maybe you mean http://ci.openstack.org/third_party.html#requesting-a-service-account ? | 19:12 |
| fungi | i think the higher-order question which has been raised is first, do we transition (or keep contact info in both places) | 19:12 |
| anteaya | likely I do | 19:12 |
| jeblair | so, i was ambivalent about this, until on friday when i disabled 4 accounts | 19:12 |
| anteaya | how do you feel now, jeblair? | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | i wanted to send them mail, so i used the info in gerrit to get their addresses to cc them | 19:13 |
| jeblair | i would not have clicked through to the wiki to do that | 19:13 |
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| krtaylor | and, only about 30 have created wiki pages so far | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | krtaylor: wow that's a lot :) | 19:13 |
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| fungi | (heh, "only about 30") | 19:13 |
| clarkb | ya I am partial to having the info in gerrit too | 19:13 |
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| krtaylor | hehheh, well, I guess its a matter of how you look at it :) | 19:14 |
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| jeblair | so i definitely still want them in the wiki, because i think all that info should be easily available for people wanting to learn about a system | 19:14 |
| anteaya | having the email in gerrit means that mulitple accounts need separate email addresses | 19:14 |
| fungi | while i like having that info in gerrit, there are two complications which we've been living with so far but are pretty inconvenient | 19:14 |
| fungi | right, that's one | 19:14 |
| fungi | it's hard to explain to people | 19:14 |
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| anteaya | the need for separate emails is hard to explain? | 19:14 |
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| fungi | so they get it wrong and we iterate over new account requests several times | 19:15 |
| jeblair | but i think that if we expect that when we perform administrative actions on those accounts that we cc them, then we should keep them in gerrit | 19:15 |
| jeblair | if we don't want to expect that, then i'm okay dropping them :) | 19:15 |
| clarkb | fungi: anteaya: what was the other? | 19:15 |
| clarkb | I am familiar with the email dances that have happened | 19:15 |
| fungi | surprisingly, yes. also because they often don't follow instructions and create an account or two through lp openid first with the same address | 19:15 |
| anteaya | we need to be able to email them efficiently | 19:15 |
| fungi | second annoyance is that they can't change it. they have to ask us to change it | 19:15 |
| clarkb | fungi: gotcha | 19:16 |
| anteaya | fungi: they don't follow instructions - describes newcomers to this group very well | 19:16 |
| jeblair | so the issue about having multiple accounts with the same address is mostly related to 'duplicate' lp accounts? | 19:16 |
| fungi | so i think if we do keep it in as a requirement, we need some better way of explaining it such that they're more likely to get it right the first time, and we need to also drive home that they should do everything in their power to not change what that address is | 19:16 |
| jeblair | rather than multiple ci systems operated by the same people? | 19:16 |
| anteaya | and them not following instructions and what to do about it deserves its own agenda item, in my mind | 19:16 |
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| anteaya | since it compounds so many other actions | 19:17 |
| fungi | well, depends on what you count as "duplicate" because also sometimes they try to provide their personal e-mail address as contact info even though they already are a reviewer in gerrit with an account associated with that address | 19:17 |
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| fungi | and basically these don't come to light until we try to add the account and gerrit barfs | 19:18 |
| fungi | maybe explicit instructions explaining how to check that the address is not already in gerrit first before requesting the account? | 19:18 |
| anteaya | do you think they would follow those instructions? | 19:19 |
| anteaya | creating better instructions tends to result in just different questions in channel or them falling down in different places | 19:19 |
| anteaya | the folks that would follow the new instructions also already follow the old ones | 19:19 |
| jeblair | what if we had a third-party-ci-announce list, and asked all 3p operators to subscribe to it, and sent administrative action notifications there | 19:20 |
| fungi | i try not to assume anything about what anyone will actually do, just hope we can provide them with the greatest chance of getting it right the first time, understanding that english is often not their first language so reading english instructions may be hit-and-miss | 19:20 |
| anteaya | we can try | 19:20 |
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| anteaya | I know that others want this back and forth out of their mind space | 19:20 |
| anteaya | and I can't tell you how frustrated it makes me | 19:20 |
| clarkb | jeblair: thats a good idea | 19:20 |
| anteaya | I want to cry sometimes I get so tired | 19:20 |
| clarkb | jeblair: or just -infra with a subject? | 19:20 |
| krtaylor | well, we could direct them to the third-party meetings to get started too | 19:20 |
| anteaya | krtaylor: that redirect usually happens in response to an email | 19:21 |
| jeblair | my personal pov is that i'm not particularly concerned if a 3p operator gets the message that their system has been disabled, but i want to give them a reasonable chance of getting it :) | 19:21 |
| jeblair | which is why i did direct cc's on friday | 19:21 |
| fungi | i definitely appreciate how the third-party ci operator community is starting to come together and provide examples/mentoring to one another. any way we can facilitate increases and improvements in that behavior means less work for infra in the long term | 19:21 |
| anteaya | fungi: yes | 19:21 |
| anteaya | me too | 19:21 |
| jeblair | but a dedicated announce list that is easy to follow should get a fairly similar result, without needing email addresses in gerrit (and it makes it easier for us too) | 19:22 |
| fungi | i think that's a great idea | 19:22 |
| krtaylor | we are brainstorming how to best police ourselves | 19:22 |
| anteaya | let's try | 19:22 |
| anteaya | at least it will be different | 19:22 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: and to your point about -infra, that's kind of anticipating another thing i put on the agenda | 19:23 |
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| anteaya | krtaylor: yes we are getting to a better place | 19:23 |
| krtaylor | I like the maillist idea too, or a way to email blast everyone on the gerrit service group | 19:23 |
| * wenlock wonders why requesting account isn't a commit request like everything else | 19:23 | |
| jeblair | " separate mailing list for third-party ci account requests (jeblair) " | 19:23 |
| anteaya | wenlock: oh these folks couldn't get that at all | 19:23 |
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| grantbow | any way to filter requests up front with a lookup for some of these known cases? | 19:23 |
| jeblair | wenlock: because we'd have to give a bot admin access :( | 19:23 |
| anteaya | wenlock: have you read some of the interactions? | 19:23 |
| wenlock | make a form that submits the commit request? | 19:23 |
| dougwig | what about a simple web form, which could do things like the duplicate check before accepting the submission? | 19:24 |
| dougwig | jinx | 19:24 |
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| anteaya | well actually if I had more help responding to the existing emails I would feel way more supported | 19:24 |
| jeblair | well, that specific thing is not an issue if we're willing to drop the email-in-gerrit requirement | 19:24 |
| anteaya | I feel very alone now | 19:24 |
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| anteaya | I would appreciate help way more than work on a web form | 19:24 |
| krtaylor | anteaya, my bad | 19:24 |
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| anteaya | krtaylor: not at all, you are very supportive | 19:25 |
| krtaylor | I am plagued by poor mail reader/filters | 19:25 |
| anteaya | krtaylor: let's discuss how to fix that later? | 19:25 |
| krtaylor | the mail list would be for infra announces to all third-party service accounts only? | 19:26 |
| clarkb | krtaylor: I think jeblair is indicating it would be used for the account requests too | 19:26 |
| jeblair | so which way are people leaning? a) anounce list and drop the gerrit email requirement? b) drop the email requirement with no mitigating measures? c) keep the email requirement? possibly with automation to help make them more correct? | 19:27 |
| jeblair | clarkb: i think i have 2 lists in mind now | 19:27 |
| fungi | so third-party-ci-announce@lists.openstack.org (or whatever) as one possible action item, maybe a different (or combined) list for related discussion and requests (can wait for that topic in the agenda)? | 19:27 |
| clarkb | jeblair: gotcha | 19:27 |
| anteaya | jeblair: I'd like to add before we remove anything | 19:27 |
| clarkb | jeblair: that works for me too and means 3p operators only need to subscribe to one? | 19:27 |
| anteaya | jeblair: to assess the effectivness of whatever we decide to add | 19:28 |
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| clarkb | I really do like the list idea | 19:28 |
| anteaya | I'm fine trying it | 19:28 |
| fungi | i like the mailing list with no other contact info collection option if 1. it is well received in the weekly third-party meeting and 2. we continue to be quick with the disable-first-worry-later approach | 19:28 |
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| jeblair | fungi: i intend to do 2 regardless :) | 19:29 |
| anteaya | yay jeblair :D | 19:29 |
| anteaya | quick on the trigger | 19:29 |
| fungi | yeah. i agree that it's incumbent on the operators to subscribe to an ml and pay attention in case we let them know that whatever account was disabled why and it happens to be the one they maintain | 19:29 |
| jeblair | it's best for everyone in the long run if people are not annoyed by 3p ci systems :) | 19:30 |
| anteaya | very much so | 19:30 |
| fungi | assuming we want to do that (and give them a heads up that this is a requirement in some official documentation) | 19:30 |
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| krtaylor | ++ | 19:30 |
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| jeblair | so let's segue into that for a bit | 19:30 |
| jeblair | #topic separate mailing list for third-party ci account requests (jeblair) | 19:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "separate mailing list for third-party ci account requests (jeblair) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:30 | |
| anteaya | well I'm usually annoyed so I guess that is everybody else | 19:30 |
| * anteaya has to stop ranting | 19:30 | |
| jeblair | so i originally proposed this because i think there are some folks on the -infra list who probably don't care about our third-party account request workflow | 19:30 |
| jeblair | like folks from other organizations using zuul, etc | 19:31 |
| anteaya | I'd say most | 19:31 |
| pleia2 | they are like 80% of the non-subscriber emails I let through | 19:31 |
| fungi | i worry that moving account requests to a separate ml, because the frequency of them has started to drown out conversation in the existing list, is indicative of other issues and we're going to see substantial scaling challenges if they continue | 19:31 |
| pleia2 | I don't mind, I can listadmin new lists too, just a thing :) | 19:31 |
| anteaya | if they are a non-subscriber, do they get a nudge to encourage them to subscribe? | 19:32 |
| pleia2 | a nudge can be given, I don't do so right now | 19:32 |
| jeblair | so i don't want the list to become a place where people can't actually talk about openstack infrostructure projects :) | 19:32 |
| anteaya | fungi: I'd go with yes | 19:32 |
| anteaya | pleia2: I'd like to request a nudge please | 19:32 |
| anteaya | jeblair: yes, I get that | 19:32 |
| anteaya | I'm amazed at how long some threads go on | 19:32 |
| pleia2 | anteaya: to infra ml, or to this new 3rd party one(s)? | 19:32 |
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| anteaya | pleia2: both? | 19:33 |
| jeblair | fungi: what kind of scaling challenges? | 19:33 |
| pleia2 | wfm | 19:33 |
| anteaya | pleia2: thanks | 19:33 |
| fungi | human scaling challenges, working through the incoming requests | 19:33 |
| anteaya | thanks fungi | 19:33 |
| fungi | unless we make it self-service or something longer term | 19:33 |
| clarkb | right there is quite a bit of handholding that seems to be done | 19:33 |
| anteaya | yes | 19:33 |
| anteaya | this group doesn't seem capable of self-serve | 19:33 |
| clarkb | fungi: even then I am not sure that it would remove the scaling issue. It would just help with the first part of it | 19:33 |
| anteaya | the ones that do get it are already openstack contributors | 19:34 |
| krtaylor | anteaya, that is the key | 19:34 |
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| fungi | anyway, it's tangential to the need for it to stop impacting the usability of the existing list, so i'm in favor of the split-out. could be the same list as the third-party-ci announcements if we want | 19:34 |
| anteaya | yup | 19:34 |
| anteaya | doesn't matter to me either way | 19:34 |
| anteaya | two new lists, one new list *shrug* | 19:34 |
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| krtaylor | the idea for patchset for creating an account isnt a bad one, it helps fix the contributor problem | 19:35 |
| anteaya | any change will have problems in the transition, the end goal just has to be clear for me | 19:35 |
| jeblair | so i think the proposal is: | 19:35 |
| anteaya | krtaylor: ah, except the panic for getting an email right becomes a panic for submitting a patch | 19:35 |
| anteaya | they don't have to set up accounts or sign a cla to send an email | 19:36 |
| fungi | "steps to request a new account: #1 subscribe to the ml. #2 check these assumptions are valid (list of assumptions). #3 post a request in the following format..." | 19:36 |
| pleia2 | fungi: +1 | 19:36 |
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| jeblair | a low-volume announce list that we require all third-party operators to subscribe to; only infra has unmoderated posting access. AND... | 19:36 |
| jeblair | a third-party ci admins list where new account and account maintenance requests are sent to | 19:37 |
| clarkb | what if (and this is just me brainstorming things) we force people to use lp/openid for these accounts | 19:37 |
| pleia2 | which list do their own outage alerts go to? | 19:37 |
| clarkb | then the request is simply for group membership? | 19:37 |
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| jeblair | the third-party community would be welcome to participate in the second list to help new systems work through the process | 19:37 |
| fungi | clarkb: well, right now we don't allow web interface access for those accounts. it would be a paradigm shift | 19:37 |
| clarkb | fungi: right, but one that would mostly allow self service | 19:38 |
| * anteaya notes that at krtaylor's request she is searching for a new word that means admins but isn't admins, she hasn't found one yet | 19:38 | |
| krtaylor | hehheh | 19:38 |
| jeblair | pleia2: why do they send out outage alerts? | 19:38 |
| fungi | i think announcements list posts should also have the reply-to set to the discussion list of we go dual-list | 19:38 |
| fungi | anteaya: i've called them operators. no idea if krtaylor sees a stigma with that term | 19:39 |
| anteaya | krtaylor: ? | 19:39 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: some send them to -dev and get in trouble | 19:39 |
| jeblair | fungi: i think infra is the discussion list | 19:39 |
| fungi | i also call myself a systems administrator, so i'm not entirely sure i understand teh concern | 19:39 |
| krtaylor | not a big deal really | 19:39 |
| pleia2 | so it seems some do want to announce outage alerts, but maybe they shouldn't? | 19:39 |
| fungi | jeblair: fair enough. we could set follow up to -infra in the headers then | 19:39 |
| anteaya | I'm fine with operators | 19:39 |
| jeblair | pleia2: if dev doesn't want announcements of third-party ci sytem outages, then perhaps dev doesn't want their third-party ci system at all and they can just close up shop and save everyone some work. :) | 19:40 |
| pleia2 | fair enough | 19:40 |
| anteaya | pleia2: we addressed the need to announce outage alerts with the wikipage | 19:40 |
| jeblair | but i _definitely_ don't want to see them; i think the only potential audience is in -dev. | 19:41 |
| jeblair | (i only care about systems that are posting, not systems that aren't) | 19:41 |
| fungi | i guess it's reasonable for the third-party operators to update the wiki systems list with status information when they have/resolve an outage | 19:41 |
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| pleia2 | anteaya: ok, guess I missed that, sorry | 19:41 |
| fungi | as long as all the projects relying on input from these know where to look when they notice the absence of an expected vote on a change | 19:42 |
| anteaya | pleia2: np | 19:42 |
| anteaya | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ThirdPartySystems | 19:42 |
| jeblair | so let me draft some 'agreed' statements and you can tell me if we're really agreed | 19:42 |
| anteaya | we having pointed to it yet on the ml | 19:42 |
| anteaya | fungi: yes | 19:42 |
| grantbow | anteaya: thanks for the link | 19:42 |
| anteaya | also they need to announce status so their overall status in the project is uptodate | 19:42 |
| anteaya | as in they are communicating | 19:43 |
| anteaya | so they won't have their driver pulled from master | 19:43 |
| anteaya | so I get the need, we just need an agreed upon, used, non-spammy way to do it | 19:43 |
| anteaya | grantbow: welcome | 19:43 |
| krtaylor | anteaya, we should put status on the individual template too | 19:44 |
| anteaya | krtaylor: I leave that magic to you, I am not opposed | 19:44 |
| jeblair | agreed create third-party announce ml which is low-volume, infra -> third-party broadcast only, expect all third-party admins to subscribe | 19:44 |
| jeblair | agreed create third-party request ml which is open subscription where third-party systems sent account requests | 19:44 |
| jeblair | agreed third-party accounts no longer need to provide gerrit email addresses | 19:44 |
| jeblair | agreed third-party system status goes in wiki page | 19:44 |
| fungi | agreed subscription to third party announcements list required of all operators, agreed separate third party account request mailing list where other operators are encouraged to help newcomers through the process | 19:44 |
| jeblair | do those all look right? ^ | 19:44 |
| * krtaylor wishes he was a better magician | 19:44 | |
| krtaylor | yes | 19:44 |
| clarkb | jeblair: yup | 19:44 |
| anteaya | jeblair: yes | 19:45 |
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| fungi | jeblair: in favor, aye to all four | 19:45 |
| anteaya | what does open subscription mean? | 19:45 |
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| clarkb | anteaya: it means anyone can join. like the -dev list | 19:45 |
| anteaya | clarkb: k, thanks | 19:45 |
| jeblair | #agreed create third-party announce ml which is low-volume, infra -> third-party broadcast only, expect all third-party admins to subscribe | 19:45 |
| jeblair | #agreed create third-party request ml which is open subscription where third-party systems sent account requests | 19:45 |
| jeblair | #agreed third-party accounts no longer need to provide gerrit email addresses | 19:45 |
| jeblair | #agreed third-party system status goes in wiki page | 19:45 |
| fungi | anteaya: anyone who joins can post to the list | 19:45 |
| anteaya | fungi: thanks | 19:45 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: to your point about lp accounts and group membership. it's tempting, but i'm worried that they will be used the wrong way if they can be... but i think it merits further thought. | 19:46 |
| anteaya | who is the ml creator? | 19:46 |
| anteaya | pleia2: is that you? | 19:46 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ya I think that is the biggest concern. people may use them to push code and other things | 19:46 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: so we may have to figure out gerrit side acls that make thigns safish | 19:46 |
| pleia2 | anteaya: there is a file in config you update | 19:46 |
| anteaya | if there is an unimaginable wrong way to do something, this group will find it | 19:46 |
| jeblair | clarkb: maybe... maybe with sufficient acls we could get that to work. | 19:46 |
| anteaya | they should be quality control | 19:46 |
| fungi | jeblair: clarkb: worth more thought. maybe we can restrict the access currently granted to normal users if they're in the systems group or whatever | 19:46 |
| fungi | er, that | 19:46 |
| anteaya | who wants to create the patch? | 19:47 |
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| anteaya | I'm still conferencing so I am a bad choice | 19:47 |
| anteaya | I would otherwise | 19:47 |
| anteaya | :( | 19:47 |
| pleia2 | it's an easy enough patch, I can do it | 19:47 |
| fungi | i am happy to submit the change to create the mailing lists | 19:47 |
| fungi | or pleia2 can to it! | 19:47 |
| * fungi quickly backs away from the keyboard | 19:47 | |
| jeblair | fungi, clarkb: i think we should proceed with what we've got (the only thing that may change is we may drop the request list), and plan out the other idea further | 19:47 |
| grantbow | lol | 19:47 |
| jeblair | #action pleia2 create new mailing lists | 19:48 |
| anteaya | pleia2: thanks, link me for the review | 19:48 |
| clarkb | jeblair: sounds good | 19:48 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ya I think my brainstorming alternative will need more time and thought | 19:48 |
| clarkb | whereas the list stuff is cheap and quick | 19:48 |
| clarkb | good for now | 19:48 |
| jeblair | oh my, this meeting is almost all third-party this week | 19:48 |
| jeblair | #topic comment syntax for third-party CI recheck (dougwig, from third-party CI meeting) | 19:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "comment syntax for third-party CI recheck (dougwig, from third-party CI meeting) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:48 | |
| anteaya | we are a rowdy bunch | 19:48 |
| anteaya | do dougwig had to jet at half past | 19:48 |
| fungi | it's almost like the third-party operators need their own weekly meeting. oh, wait, they have one! | 19:49 |
| jeblair | whoopsie; if people mention that in the agenda, i can accomodate | 19:49 |
| anteaya | the upshot is that third party doesn't want to break things like vmware did last week | 19:49 |
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| anteaya | so how should we recheck for now, until we can agree to how we should recheck long term? | 19:49 |
| fungi | this rolls into the next topic, so maybe we just cover both as one discussion | 19:49 |
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| anteaya | I have told them manual recheck is acceptable, not generated scripts | 19:49 |
| krtaylor | pleia2, can you tag the topic of the maillist patch third-party? | 19:50 |
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| anteaya | what else should they know to safely recheck? | 19:50 |
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| jeblair | oh yeah, it's never okay to mass-recheck by leaving comments | 19:50 |
| pleia2 | krtaylor: sure | 19:50 |
| fungi | oh, how should they do mass rechecks? they should trigger them in whatever way their systems allow without leaving comments in gerrit to do so | 19:50 |
| jeblair | neither jenkins nor zuul requires that | 19:50 |
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| anteaya | jeblair: yes, we covered not mass-rechecking in yesterday's meeting | 19:50 |
| dougwig | here's my topic intro: "hi there. A topic came up in the third-party CI meeting, which was to refrain from using recheck.* as a prefix for triggering re-checks in 3rd party CI's, as it causes standard jenkins to also re-run. What syntax/prefix should we use/standardize for retriggering a single third-party CI?" | 19:50 |
| dougwig | (i'm not really here) | 19:50 |
| anteaya | which motivated the current agenda item | 19:51 |
| anteaya | dougwig: yay | 19:51 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/109565/ | 19:51 |
| jeblair | so there's a change that proposes a syntax. | 19:51 |
| jeblair | it has nothing but red votes | 19:51 |
| anteaya | yes | 19:51 |
| anteaya | so there is a conversation | 19:51 |
| anteaya | they just want to know what is safe which the conversation takes place | 19:51 |
| anteaya | so they aren't blocked until resolution of the conversation | 19:52 |
| jeblair | i think some people can't agree on the syntax, and i think some people (myself and fungi included) don't agree that third-party ci specific recheck comments should be used at all | 19:52 |
| anteaya | or is there a safe way | 19:52 |
| fungi | there are also a bug and an infra ml thread on this topic | 19:52 |
| jeblair | anteaya: what is the safe way to do a third-party specific recheck comment? | 19:52 |
| anteaya | yes, that is the question | 19:52 |
| anteaya | I do believe | 19:52 |
| fungi | #link https://launchpad.net/bugs/1355480 | 19:52 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1355480 in openstack-ci "recheck/reverify comment_filter is too loose" [Undecided,Opinion] | 19:52 |
| jeblair | anteaya: there is no safe way, it's not supported or recommended | 19:52 |
| anteaya | hmmmm | 19:53 |
| clarkb | I agree with jeblair and fungi | 19:53 |
| clarkb | its the wild west we don't enforce it | 19:53 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2014-August/001681.html | 19:53 |
| clarkb | there is no "safe" | 19:53 |
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| anteaya | okay well this places those operators wanting to play by the rules in a difficult spot | 19:53 |
| anteaya | I don't know what to take back to them | 19:53 |
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| anteaya | I've worked so hard to get them to ask | 19:53 |
| anteaya | I would be really disapointed if I went back with "do whatever you want" | 19:54 |
| fungi | the rules say they should rerun their checks when someone leave a "recheck bug [0-9]+" or "recheck no bug" comment | 19:54 |
| jeblair | anteaya: i don't think i'd say that. i think i'd say what fungi said. | 19:54 |
| fungi | at least in present documentation | 19:54 |
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| dougwig | i mean, something like "thirdparty-recheck-a10", or anything that will never match your jenkins, is all we want. | 19:54 |
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| fungi | dougwig: i'm unconvinced there's value in rerunning only one ci system | 19:55 |
| jeblair | i believe we attempted to have a stronger indication that nothing else should be supported, but that did not gain unanimous approval. thus the 3p ci operates in an undefined area if they do anything more. | 19:55 |
| dougwig | we can make it up; wasn't sure if there should be a standard. | 19:55 |
| anteaya | is dougwig's suggestion safe? | 19:55 |
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| dougwig | fungi: retrying false negatives. we are not all as perfect as infra. :) | 19:55 |
| fungi | it's not like we allow developers to only rerun the jobs which fail and leave the passing results for other jobs. it should eb all-or-nothing | 19:55 |
| jeblair | yeah, everyone wants to make some super complicated language for controlling ci systems in comments | 19:55 |
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| jeblair | that's an INSANE idea, and the only reason we do it at all is because our tooling is not good enough to support something else | 19:55 |
| jeblair | i mean, it's a horrible user interface for developers | 19:55 |
| dougwig | we ask people to start commenting before they vote, to shake out bugs. not every failure is a fault in the submitted code (many are not for 3p) | 19:56 |
| jeblair | and we should minimize it's use totally | 19:56 |
| anteaya | I think they are just trying their best to not step on infra's toes and allow functionality they percieve as necessary | 19:56 |
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| jeblair | i don't think we'd be upset if someone says "recheck". i mean right now we re-run jobs all the time for no particular reason :) | 19:56 |
| asselin_ | the issue with recheck bug # is that all ci systems will start over again. As there are more and more, the probability of all of them passing gets smaller, especially when there are intermittent bugs. | 19:56 |
| anteaya | we just don't want to create a scenario like vmware did that brought down zuul last week | 19:57 |
| jeblair | anteaya: these are two separate issues | 19:57 |
| anteaya | jeblair: yes | 19:57 |
| clarkb | anteaya: a different syntax doesn't solve that problem | 19:57 |
| anteaya | clarkb: oh | 19:57 |
| anteaya | we are almost at time and I feel we are at a stalemate for now | 19:57 |
| clarkb | anteaya: at least as long as clean check si a thing any comment can trigger CI | 19:57 |
| fungi | anteaya: the main problem i saw is that a bot went and left hundreds of useless comments on changes | 19:57 |
| jeblair | anteaya: we will disable any account for spamming regardless of what syntax they use | 19:57 |
| anteaya | so no bots | 19:58 |
| anteaya | jeblair: true | 19:58 |
| fungi | not no bots. just bots should only leave comments which contain useful information for reviewers | 19:58 |
| dougwig | what i'm hearing is that you think the mechanism is a bad idea in general. i think that's overly optimistic in terms of the quality of all of these disparate CI systems. | 19:58 |
| anteaya | I think we covered not bots for comments, but I can cover that again | 19:58 |
| anteaya | fungi: okay | 19:58 |
| dougwig | in an ideal CI world, it would not be needed. the world is not currently ideal. or even close. | 19:58 |
| fungi | (useful and nonredundant) | 19:58 |
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| anteaya | fungi: k | 19:59 |
| jeblair | dougwig: there's an opportunity in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/109565/ | 19:59 |
| fungi | i'm also worried that we risk sending a signal that it's okay for things to work poorly, and we should give up bothering to improve that | 19:59 |
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| jeblair | dougwig: right now, no one likes that change at all. perhaps if even a handful of people could agree on what would be a good idea, it will go somewhere. | 19:59 |
| anteaya | I'm all for improving our signalling | 19:59 |
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| anteaya | and we have no more time | 20:00 |
| jeblair | or maybe someone should add authentication to zuul's webui so recheck requests don't have to go in comments :) | 20:00 |
| jeblair | that would be a far better use of all of our time, i think. | 20:00 |
| jeblair | thanks everyone! | 20:00 |
| dougwig | not specifying a syntax will result in every 3p system making up its own recheck trigger. i think the idealist case won't fly in reality. | 20:00 |
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| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| anteaya | sorry we took the whole meeting, but thanks for letting us talk about these items | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 19 20:00:37 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-19-19.02.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-19-19.02.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-19-19.02.log.html | 20:00 |
| dougwig | ty! | 20:00 |
| ttx | Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
| annegentle | holla | 20:01 |
| jeblair | ttx: o/ | 20:01 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:01 |
| dhellmann | O/ | 20:01 |
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| bswartz | ttx: I'm here | 20:01 |
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| jraim | I'm here for the Barbican discussion | 20:01 |
| redrobot | o/ | 20:01 |
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| ttx | markmc, mikal, vishy, markmcclain, jaypipes, sdague, dhellmann : around ? | 20:01 |
| * dhellmann joins from a cab in Chicago and may disappear | 20:01 | |
| jgriffith | o/ | 20:01 |
| mikal | Hi | 20:01 |
| russellb | dhellmann: ooh, mad skills | 20:01 |
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| ttx | mordred and devananda are out, devananda gave proxy powerz to jeblair | 20:01 |
| markmc | hey | 20:02 |
| SheenaG11 | o/ | 20:02 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:02 |
| jeblair | as a followup aside from the last special meeting; this week the infra meeting was almost entirely about third-party ci; that's something that has a looming scaling problem | 20:02 |
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| ttx | That shall make enough members | 20:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 19 20:02:39 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
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| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| ttx | The agenda for today: | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
| ttx | #topic Manila for incubation (part 2) | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Manila for incubation (part 2) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| ttx | We have two changes up for review on that: | 20:03 |
| ttx | * Propose Shared File Systems program: (https://review.openstack.org/111149) | 20:03 |
| ttx | * Propose Manila for incubation (https://review.openstack.org/113583) | 20:03 |
| ttx | Last week we had the first part of this discussion | 20:03 |
| ttx | Several points were raised, which I'll try to summarize | 20:03 |
| ttx | 1. The Cinder relationship (code was originally copied as a template, but now evolved on its own, common code is being osloified, Manila can pull architectural improvements directly from Nova) | 20:03 |
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| ttx | 2. Community size/width with most commits coming from same person(s) and same company | 20:04 |
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| ttx | 3. The driver/vendor aspect (avoid another Neutron with no first-party driver really viable, getting swamped by driver requests, relationship with glusterfs) | 20:04 |
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| ttx | 4. User interest (is it something people want) | 20:04 |
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| ttx | I think all the discussion last week falls into on of those 4 points | 20:04 |
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| ttx | Shout if you think I missed something | 20:05 |
| bswartz | good summary | 20:05 |
| ttx | I don't think any of those was seen as a blocker to incubation though. | 20:05 |
| ttx | The main concern was more our ability to handle more projects in incubation, but that's external to Manila itself | 20:05 |
| bswartz | I think all of those above points were responded to, but if anyone wants elaboration let me know | 20:06 |
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| russellb | and our conversation about that mainly ended up focusing on how to ensure higher quality | 20:06 |
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| russellb | and not so much about # of projects | 20:06 |
| ttx | Those 4 points were mostly things to carefully watch for DURING incubation | 20:06 |
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| dhellmann | Right | 20:06 |
| ttx | russellb: yes | 20:06 |
| annegentle | right | 20:06 |
| ttx | Also much more concerns in graduating a project to integrated, compared to accepting another project in incubation | 20:07 |
| russellb | yes, agree | 20:07 |
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| annegentle | right also | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | Yep | 20:08 |
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| * ttx looks at the state of those reviews | 20:08 | |
| markmc | nice summary | 20:08 |
| russellb | i was waiting on the meeting before voting | 20:08 |
| markmc | devananda has a -1 based on process AFAICT | 20:08 |
| ttx | We have a -1 from deva on the program thing, but I still think separate changes is the right way to propose this | 20:08 |
| jeblair | russellb: same here | 20:08 |
| russellb | i think ttx responded to deva | 20:08 |
| markmc | that approving the program without the project doesn't make sense | 20:08 |
| russellb | of course, he's not around to see the response | 20:08 |
| ttx | russellb: jebalir has the power to reverse it though | 20:08 |
| russellb | ah yes | 20:09 |
| ttx | jeblair: even | 20:09 |
| ttx | so unless we have other questions to throw, I suppose we need to wait for votes to be cast on those proposals | 20:09 |
| ttx | I'll approve if that reaches 7 YES, and if it doesn't reach such bar during the week, we'll discuss it again next week to try to see what blocks it | 20:10 |
| annegentle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/111149/ | 20:10 |
| ttx | Comments on that before we switch to next topic ? | 20:10 |
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| markmcclain | we've pointed out the lack of community… would it be reasonable to know if there is a plan to help grow it? | 20:10 |
| bswartz | are you going to hold votes on both reviews this week? | 20:11 |
| * russellb +1d both of them fwiw | 20:11 | |
| ttx | markmcclain: sure that's reasonable | 20:11 |
| bswartz | or just the program? | 20:11 |
| ttx | bswartz: both | 20:11 |
| annegentle | bswartz: my sense was that your community was waiting for incubation? | 20:11 |
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| bswartz | ty | 20:11 |
| ttx | markmcclain: I think the general idea is that the incubation status should result in a surge in contributions | 20:11 |
| ttx | markmcclain: as we've seen with barbican, which is the next topic | 20:11 |
| russellb | i guess we should clarify the incubation expectations | 20:12 |
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| bswartz | annegentle: yes there are several developers who will be able to dedicate more time once they can tell their managers it's a real project | 20:12 |
| russellb | but it's basically the 4 concerns you brought up at the beginning, i think | 20:12 |
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| dhellmann | That won't be automatic though. Is there a plan to onboard new contribs? | 20:12 |
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| markmcclain | ttx: right with barbican there were identified companies that said they'd step in if incubated | 20:12 |
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| bswartz | I'm not sure why incubation matters so much to those managers but it seems to be important | 20:12 |
| ttx | dhellmann: on the other hand, if they fail to attract enough people they can be de-incubated alright :) | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | True | 20:13 |
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| jeblair | yeah, it's not the first time we've heard that | 20:13 |
| russellb | yep, not graduating is certainly a possible outcome, and that's OK | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | Seems like a plan is a plus, and a lack may not be a blocker | 20:13 |
| markmcclain | bswartz: labeling is definitely critical for resource allocation | 20:13 |
| russellb | i think it's an obvious value add ot openstack, nothing is competing with it, we should give it a shot to grow | 20:13 |
| ttx | russellb: ++ | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | Agree | 20:14 |
| vishy | o/ (sorry i’m late, reading scrollback) | 20:14 |
| markmcclain | russellb: +1 | 20:14 |
| jeblair | but yeah, i agree, best to maximize chance of success by being prepared to recruit and onboard once/if you get the label | 20:14 |
| bswartz | vishy: just +1 my review :p | 20:14 |
| * ttx gives vishy 2 min to read scrollback before moving on to next topic | 20:14 | |
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| vishy | go ahead | 20:14 |
| vishy | :) | 20:14 |
| annegentle | two whole minutes? :) | 20:14 |
| ttx | #topic Graduation review: Barbican (part 1) | 20:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Graduation review: Barbican (part 1) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:14 | |
| ttx | I live in a separate timespace continuum | 20:15 |
| ttx | So.. At every end of cycle we look at currently-incubated projects, discuss progress | 20:15 |
| ttx | and see if any are ready to be made a part of the next OpenStack integrated release development cycle | 20:15 |
| ttx | Today we start this end-of-Juno-cycle process by looking into Barbican, which started incubation back in March | 20:15 |
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| ttx | jraim: o/ | 20:16 |
| jraim | I'm here | 20:16 |
| ttx | On the contributor diversity side, there was undeniable progress in Juno, which is great to see | 20:16 |
| jraim | yep, we're very happy with the folks that have been contributing | 20:16 |
| ttx | jraim: what would be your assessment of the current state of Barbican in incubation? | 20:16 |
| redrobot | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Barbican/Integration | 20:16 |
| jraim | ^^ We put a quick wiki page on our status for integration | 20:16 |
| ttx | Looking at http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-August/043360.html my gut feeling is that there are also pretty critical features still being worked on at this point | 20:17 |
| russellb | what integration work has been done? | 20:17 |
| russellb | completed, i should say | 20:17 |
| ttx | the first "integrated" cycle is busy enough already so that should probably be considered once the key features are off the ground | 20:17 |
| jraim | russellb: some of that is on the wiki (status wise anyway) | 20:18 |
| * jaypipes rushes into meeting... | 20:18 | |
| jraim | ttx: We have mostly focused on technical work, especially with the onboarding of a lot of new contribs | 20:18 |
| russellb | jraim: my reading was that no integrations are completed? | 20:18 |
| jraim | We have done some work on translating documenation over, but I wouldn't say that was complete yet | 20:18 |
| ttx | russellb: (status=MET) means completed | 20:19 |
| russellb | this one is STATUS=??? | 20:19 |
| ttx | russellb: or do you mean integration with some project? | 20:19 |
| russellb | integraiton with some projects, yes | 20:19 |
| russellb | sorry | 20:19 |
| ttx | oh right ignore me | 20:19 |
| ttx | It would also not be bad to have at least one integrated project being able to make use of Barbican, so that we check basic use case / collaboration / interoperability | 20:19 |
| russellb | i think for this to graduate, i would expect integration with nova to be completed, for example | 20:19 |
| russellb | right, i'm trying to see if there is at least one ... | 20:20 |
| annegentle | jraim: do you have user docs anywhere already? | 20:20 |
| jraim | the main integrations are with neutron, nova and cinder | 20:20 |
| ttx | as you would be expected to complete most of them during the first integrated cycle | 20:20 |
| russellb | jraim: are any merged? | 20:20 |
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| jraim | russellb: not really. there are reviews out for all three, btu I would classify them as WIP | 20:20 |
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| russellb | I don't think it makes sense to graduate without integration completed with at least one other integrated project in this case | 20:20 |
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| ttx | russellb: I would be on the same line | 20:20 |
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| jraim | annegentle: yes, they are our tree....redrobot is digging up the link | 20:21 |
| ttx | jraim: Back in June there was a discussion on a barebones CA for easier testing -- was there progress on that ? | 20:21 |
| jeblair | it sounds like things are heading in a really good direction, but probably need more time | 20:21 |
| russellb | ok so in that case, i think i'd say my feeling is "keep up the really great work, let's talk again next cycle" | 20:21 |
| ttx | jeblair: yes, I feel like integrating now would do more harm than good | 20:21 |
| redrobot | annegentle we've been working on user docs in the barbican tree | 20:21 |
| redrobot | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/barbican/tree/docs | 20:21 |
| jraim | ttx: RedHat has contributed dogtag code, which is a pure software CA that can be used for that | 20:21 |
| ttx | it generally feels a bit early for tackling integration in the next cycle | 20:21 |
| jraim | but we are struggling with 3rd party testing, especially around physical devices | 20:21 |
| russellb | but i'd like to reiterate that i think you guys are doing a great job | 20:22 |
| russellb | very happy about the progress you've made | 20:22 |
| jeblair | jraim: is the dogtag stuff running? | 20:22 |
| russellb | jraim: i tihnk every project trying to do 3rd party testing is struggling in some way with it | 20:22 |
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| jraim | russellb: I wouldn't disagree with you assessment. I'm happy with where we are going, but most of the work this cycle has been technical and we haven't gotten a lot of work on the integrations done | 20:22 |
| ttx | yeah, frankly back when we incubated you I thought there would be 0% chance we would discuss integration now | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | Are those technical issues? | 20:22 |
| markmcclain | russellb: same here really happy with their progress not sure graduation time is now | 20:23 |
| jraim | jeblair: the patches are merged, we are working through the testing issues | 20:23 |
| annegentle | jraim: I talked to Constanze at lunch (one of the writers) and basically the core-docs resources go towards core docs first... but I think that install docs and end user (CLI, Dashboard) docs are expected | 20:23 |
| ttx | but it just seems to not be that far | 20:23 |
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| russellb | yeah, coming along nicely | 20:23 |
| * dhellmann is experiencing lag | 20:23 | |
| ttx | From a release management perspective, we did handle juno-2 but the jobs were not really there yet, so it's still a bit fresh | 20:23 |
| jraim | annegentle: agreed. We have more docs work to do. | 20:23 |
| jeblair | jraim: okay. i think having really good first-party testing of the all-software path is critical; let me know if you need help | 20:23 |
| ttx | It's just all a bit too fresh | 20:23 |
| jraim | jeblair: will do. We're looking at setting up turbohipster and the like to enable 3rd party test runs | 20:24 |
| ttx | jraim: Would you like to go through list of integration requirements to make sure we are on the same page on them ? | 20:24 |
| * jaypipes sees no reason to rush graduation, or even the vote on it. | 20:24 | |
| jraim | We did have one question around horizon | 20:24 |
| ttx | i would like to insist that the list is not the complete set of arguments the TC can use, it's more like the minimal, consensual stuff that all TC members agree are a base for integration | 20:24 |
| russellb | in the case horizon integration makes sense, yes i think it shold be done before graduation | 20:24 |
| russellb | IMO | 20:24 |
| jraim | What needs to be completed for integration? and do we write that code or does someone else? | 20:24 |
| jeblair | jraim: yep i understand that device testing will be important to you; just want to make sure you know that can't be at the expense of the first-party software device path :) | 20:24 |
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| jraim | jeblair: agreed | 20:25 |
| russellb | jraim: ideally you, or in some sort of collaboration with horizon folks | 20:25 |
| ttx | jraim: we had both cases | 20:25 |
| jraim | russellb: great. I'll go get some front-end time for that work then | 20:25 |
| russellb | not necessarily you personally, but the projcet somehow bringing forward the resources would be ideal | 20:25 |
| jraim | russellb: we'll go see what we can do. I think an initial integration won't be horribly complex | 20:26 |
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| russellb | cool | 20:26 |
| jraim | Other question we had: for the answer questions requirements, is that ask.openstack or launchpad or both? | 20:26 |
| jeblair | jraim: i think just ask.o.o at this point | 20:26 |
| russellb | ask.o.o generally preferred over launchpad answers these days | 20:26 |
| ttx | jraim: I would also recommend completing integration with one project, to serve as a key example of good integration / collaboration with established projects | 20:26 |
| jraim | okay, good to know | 20:26 |
| russellb | launchpad answers was shut down for a lot of projects | 20:26 |
| russellb | jraim: i'd say openstack ML as well | 20:27 |
| jeblair | i think we stopped enabling lp? we may need to turn off lp answers for barbican if it isn't already | 20:27 |
| jraim | ttx: we are working hard with neutron and the john-hopkins folks are working on nova/cinder so we should be pretty far along on those fronts | 20:27 |
| annegentle | jraim: ask.o.org | 20:27 |
| ttx | heh, neutron is not the best guinea pig, they have a long backlog of things | 20:27 |
| markmcclain | jraim: the neutron integration is not likely to land in juno | 20:27 |
| markmcclain | ttx: true | 20:27 |
| jraim | markmcclain: true. We want to get the work done, but juno seems like a stretch as this point | 20:28 |
| annegentle | jraim: and yes, turn off LP answers | 20:28 |
| jraim | annegentle: will do | 20:28 |
| ttx | if you have the choice, pick a slightly less busy project :) | 20:28 |
| russellb | of course they're all busy :) | 20:28 |
| russellb | varying levels of busy | 20:28 |
| ttx | jraim: any other question on the integration requirements? | 20:28 |
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| jraim | nope, that's all we had | 20:28 |
| russellb | thanks! | 20:29 |
| jraim | thanks for the help as always | 20:29 |
| ttx | OK, so let's try to summarize | 20:29 |
| annegentle | jraim: thanks for all the integration work so far | 20:29 |
| * dhellmann reaches hotel and signs off for a few min | 20:29 | |
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| * russellb is also in a hotel. | 20:29 | |
| ttx | #info the TC is pleased with the progress Barbican has made during this first cycle in incubation, feels like it's still a bit fresh and early to consider graduation at this point | 20:30 |
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| jraim | agreed from our side | 20:30 |
| russellb | ++ | 20:30 |
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| ttx | #info Integration with at least oen project should be completed before graduation | 20:30 |
| ttx | #info continue the good job on getting a more diverse community | 20:30 |
| * jeblair agrees with ttx while not in a hotel | 20:30 | |
| russellb | heh | 20:30 |
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| ttx | doies that summarize it well? | 20:30 |
| * markmcclain agrees and is in a hotel | 20:30 | |
| jraim | Yep | 20:31 |
| mikal | Sounds good to me from my house | 20:31 |
| ttx | jraim: thanks for coming, and keep up the good work! | 20:31 |
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| jraim | ttx: thanks again all | 20:31 |
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| ttx | #topic New nominee for User committee | 20:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New nominee for User committee (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:31 | |
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| ttx | I would like to actively engage with people to see if they would be interested, but to do that I need names. Any suggestion? | 20:32 |
| annegentle | Jon Proulx, Joe Topjian | 20:32 |
| annegentle | ttx: I have contact info I can send you | 20:32 |
| russellb | Nate from NSA | 20:33 |
| annegentle | Sean Winn | 20:33 |
| ttx | I suggested Guillaume Aubuchon but haven't checked if he would have the time | 20:33 |
| annegentle | Beth Cohen | 20:33 |
| annegentle | oh and I haven't checked in with any of these names I'm mentioning, but I'd definitely nominate them | 20:33 |
| russellb | a large enterprise user of some kind | 20:33 |
| ttx | Could you all send me names / contact info? I'll reach to them to check if they would be up to it, and we'll select the final nominee in a future meeting | 20:33 |
| annegentle | sure | 20:34 |
| ttx | Please send names before the end of week | 20:34 |
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| annegentle | #action send ttx names/contact info for user committee nominees by Fri 8/22 | 20:34 |
| ttx | #action ttx to reach to nominees to check if they would be up for the User Committe job first thing Monday morning | 20:34 |
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| annegentle | I guess that action should have said "all" -- how do I fix it with meetbot? | 20:35 |
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| russellb | you can #undo, but ttx has already done something after you | 20:35 |
| ttx | action is assigned to "send" | 20:35 |
| annegentle | ok | 20:35 |
| ttx | I guess that works | 20:35 |
| annegentle | ah well | 20:35 |
| annegentle | :) | 20:35 |
| ttx | #topic Other governance changes | 20:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:35 | |
| ttx | * Rename marconi to zaqar (https://review.openstack.org/114770) | 20:35 |
| * russellb proposes a ban on name changes | 20:36 | |
| jeblair | this is a thing that has happened ^ | 20:36 |
| annegentle | pronounced "zah-caar" | 20:36 |
| jeblair | russellb: i second that :) | 20:36 |
| annegentle | for those who talk about things aloud | 20:36 |
| ttx | I think mikal's remark is valid, but jeblair just submitted on behalf of the zaqar crew | 20:36 |
| mikal | Did they give in to my demands? | 20:36 |
| ttx | mikal: jebalir proposed the change | 20:36 |
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| ttx | dammit jeblair did | 20:36 |
| jeblair | hrm | 20:37 |
| ttx | jeblair: why is my keyboard mangling your name | 20:37 |
| jeblair | well, the governance change is because now the governance repo points to the wrong project names :) | 20:37 |
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| mikal | I think even the text from that linked email would be sufficient | 20:37 |
| mikal | Just some sort of easy to find historical record | 20:37 |
| ttx | I guess that commit message can be expanded, yes. | 20:38 |
| ttx | Anyway, this is a housekeeping change | 20:38 |
| jeblair | updated. now everyone gets to vote again | 20:38 |
| mikal | Hey, I'll update the commit message if Jim doesn't want to | 20:38 |
| ttx | jeblair: I'll approve it post-meeting if nobody objects (housekeeping change) | 20:39 |
| ttx | post-meeting = as soon as I come back from urgent dental care tomorrow morning | 20:39 |
| ttx | * Update kite repo and add python-kiteclient (https://review.openstack.org/114772) | 20:39 |
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| ttx | Same here, will approve unless someone posts a -1 there | 20:39 |
| ttx | * Add repository glance.store to glance (https://review.openstack.org/107585) | 20:39 |
| ttx | This one is blocked by Glance PTL virtual -1, and markwash is not back from vacation yet | 20:40 |
| ttx | (that I know of) | 20:40 |
| * dhellmann returns | 20:40 | |
| ttx | dhellmann: just in time for some interesting open discussion | 20:40 |
| jeblair | er | 20:40 |
| annegentle | stop talking about dhellmann he's back! | 20:40 |
| jeblair | it's already in openstack/ | 20:40 |
| jeblair | assuming that we correctly waiting for the ptl approval when creating that repo | 20:41 |
| jeblair | i would assert that the ptl has already agreed that it's in the program | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: ha! | 20:41 |
| * jeblair double checks that | 20:41 | |
| ttx | jeblair: he posted a -1 on that review though | 20:41 |
| ttx | "-1 for just a few days | 20:41 |
| ttx | At the mini summit, we were at a bit of a loss to remember the benefits that outweigh the extra integration costs. | 20:41 |
| ttx | We're regrouping to discuss this issue this week and to re-evaluate." | 20:41 |
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| ttx | I don't feel we should bypass thatone | 20:41 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:42 | |
| jeblair | ugh | 20:42 |
| ttx | So I have a few things | 20:42 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell would like to propose a DefCore/TC call to give feedback on the Designated Sections strawman. | 20:42 |
| jeblair | we (mordred) apparently did _not_ wait for the glance ptl before approving the repo creation | 20:42 |
| ttx | That would happen sometimes later in the week or early next week. | 20:42 |
| jeblair | so that was an error on infra's part, sorry | 20:42 |
| ttx | He explicitely mentioned it would be a call, not an IRC meeting | 20:42 |
| jeblair | if he rejects it, we'll move it out of openstack/ | 20:42 |
| ttx | So watch for announcements on the list(s) | 20:43 |
| russellb | boo for non-IRC, but fine :) | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | we need to have a transcription service for those calls | 20:43 |
| ttx | dhellmann: i can probably make one up. | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | ttx: not *quite* what I was looking for :-) | 20:44 |
| russellb | you can make up a transcription service? | 20:44 |
| russellb | it's been long enough since the last TC blog post | 20:44 |
| annegentle | I type fast :) | 20:44 |
| russellb | anyone want to take a stab at writing one? | 20:44 |
| jeblair | do we have a schedule for that? | 20:44 |
| ttx | I guess we should wait until the final decision on Manila | 20:44 |
| annegentle | russellb: I can, by when? | 20:44 |
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| russellb | no schedule, been playing by ear so far | 20:45 |
| ttx | so that we actually announce something else than barbican continuing incubation | 20:45 |
| russellb | the first few were every 2-3 weeks | 20:45 |
| russellb | yeah, maybe after next time | 20:45 |
| ttx | Since we have a bit of time there was a topic I wanted to discuss | 20:45 |
| russellb | just want to make sure we keep it up | 20:45 |
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| annegentle | ok | 20:45 |
| ttx | Should we have dedicated TC members follow integrated/incubated projects ? | 20:45 |
| russellb | annegentle: much appreciated | 20:45 |
| ttx | That is, rather than expect we can follow everythign everywhere, try to specialize and follow SOME projects we don't have a direct stake in ? | 20:46 |
| markmcclain | how about a blog post of focusing on quality? | 20:46 |
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| russellb | ttx: I like the idea in general | 20:46 |
| ttx | I feel like that would be very useful for incubated projects in particular | 20:46 |
| russellb | i think we assume too much that every project is looked after at the detail needed | 20:46 |
| annegentle | markmcclain: and the discussion on the future of the integrated release | 20:46 |
| markmcclain | russellb: +1 | 20:46 |
| dhellmann | isn't that part of what the ptl should be handling, though? | 20:46 |
| ttx | To be current on Barbican for this meeting, I read ML posts, blogposts, asked questions around... | 20:46 |
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| annegentle | dhellmann: honestly I think PTLs could use support here from each other and from the TC | 20:47 |
| annegentle | even if it's just a Q&A Hangout | 20:47 |
| ttx | dhellmann: the idea is that the TC would rely on a particular member to flag issues with projects | 20:47 |
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| russellb | though we need to be careful with it ... don't want to create another "position" | 20:47 |
| russellb | where X is the "TC overlord" of Y | 20:47 |
| dhellmann | right, or "subcommittees" or whatever | 20:47 |
| ttx | I agree it's tricky, we don't want to be blind and rely on a single person either | 20:48 |
| russellb | I think our regular check-ins with projects are good, at least | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I can see the benefit, I just thought we already had someone to do that, but I guess we don't want to delegate our evaluation to the project | 20:48 |
| bswartz | +1 for PTL support group | 20:48 |
| ttx | it just feels like a lot of work to watch all projects and know enough about them for every discussion | 20:48 |
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| bswartz | although I don't get the hate mail that most PTLs do yet | 20:48 |
| russellb | ttx: are you thinking specifc to incubation? | 20:48 |
| russellb | or more generally? | 20:48 |
| mikal | bswartz: I can send you some if you feel left out | 20:48 |
| bswartz | lol | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: I'd be up for some sort of "office hours" thing periodically | 20:48 |
| annegentle | "I'm Anne G. and I'm an OpenStack PTL" | 20:49 |
| ttx | russellb: I think it's more useful for incubation, since it's easier to overlook those projects | 20:49 |
| * russellb nods | 20:49 | |
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| dhellmann | annegentle: from 3 tenants to 12 steps? | 20:49 |
| russellb | ttx: and maybe for integrated projects, a once per cycle status check is enough? | 20:49 |
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| annegentle | "It has been 3 days since my last hate mail" | 20:50 |
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| ttx | russellb: but I also like that some members (devananda) took the time to deep dive into some projects flaws to get us the info we needed | 20:50 |
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| * markmcclain wants to trade inboxes with annegentle | 20:50 | |
| russellb | ttx: incubated though right? | 20:50 |
| russellb | ttx: totally agree this is something worth adding to our incubation process | 20:50 |
| annegentle | markmcclain: oh I can't even. Don't have enough. Ugh. | 20:50 |
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| ttx | I feel like we are supposed to follow all of them, and in practice we only follow a few, which creates dark areas that nobody looks into | 20:51 |
| annegentle | ttx: so you're wanting to assure coverage | 20:51 |
| russellb | yeah that makes sense | 20:52 |
| ttx | russellb: although if we want to scale the number of integarted projects, we won't be able to be current on all of them all the time | 20:52 |
| russellb | i generally feel like an integrated project should be able to stand on its own and do well without supervision :) | 20:52 |
| vishy | i agree I don’t really look deeply enough into the projects | 20:52 |
| ttx | So maybe we can start with assigning "TC mentors" to Kilo incubated projects | 20:52 |
| russellb | and a once-per-cycle "chat with the TC about status" should be OK | 20:52 |
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| russellb | but for incubation, absolutely | 20:52 |
| vishy | but i think it is more important pre incubation and integration | 20:52 |
| russellb | vishy: yeah i've thought about that too | 20:52 |
| russellb | when we go to evaluate a project for incubation | 20:53 |
| vishy | as in have a couple of members deep dive with the project for a week | 20:53 |
| russellb | not always clear who/if there has been a deep dive ... | 20:53 |
| ttx | I've been doing mentoring on the release integration side, but I'll be the first to admit I don't follow their progress very closely | 20:53 |
| jogo | russellb: I think that is being overly optimistic | 20:53 |
| jogo | russellb: (integrated standing on there own) | 20:53 |
| russellb | jogo: i did say "should" | 20:53 |
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| russellb | saying what i think we should be able to expect. | 20:53 |
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| ttx | I usually try to catch up when we reach the end-of-cycle graduation review | 20:54 |
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| ttx | OK, I'll suggest it again when we start the Kilo TC session | 20:54 |
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| ttx | #action ttx to propose to Kilo TC members to have a TC mentor for each Kilo incubated project to follow their progress more closely | 20:54 |
| russellb | +1 | 20:54 |
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| annegentle | nice | 20:55 |
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| ttx | You might want to stay for the next meeting, we'll brainstorm around potential improvements to deisgn summits to try to make them more useful | 20:55 |
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| ttx | based on midcycle feedback | 20:55 |
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| ttx | Anything else, anyone? | 20:55 |
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| ttx | Do we have someone volunteering to draft a TC article for when we'll have the votes in for Manila? | 20:56 |
| russellb | ttx: annegentle | 20:56 |
| annegentle | yep | 20:56 |
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| russellb | annegentle: ping if you'd like another set of eyes on the draft | 20:57 |
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| ttx | #action annegentle will write the next TC blogpost, waiting for final decision on Manila first | 20:57 |
| russellb | annegentle: do you have an openstack blog account? | 20:57 |
| annegentle | russellb: awesome thanks. | 20:57 |
| ttx | annegentle: I think you already have a openstack.org blog account | 20:57 |
| annegentle | russellb: used to, they don't really exist any more? | 20:57 |
| russellb | they dont? | 20:57 |
| annegentle | unless I'm retro vintage? | 20:57 |
| russellb | i've been using a wordpress account to post | 20:57 |
| ttx | annegentle: if not we can get taht clarified | 20:57 |
| annegentle | ok | 20:57 |
| russellb | stefano hooked me up | 20:58 |
| annegentle | ok | 20:58 |
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| ttx | Oh, and please have a look at the meeting backlog, I think we can fit all discussions before September 16 deadline | 20:59 |
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| ttx | jeblair: the wiki is asking me to long in for the 3rd time today. Did we change anything on our side? | 21:00 |
| ttx | log in | 21:00 |
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| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 19 21:00:38 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-19-20.02.html | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-19-20.02.txt | 21:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-19-20.02.log.html | 21:00 |
| ttx | dhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, eglynn, markwash, jgriffith, mikal, zaneb, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ? | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:01 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:01 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:01 |
| mestery | \o/ | 21:01 |
| gordc | o/ (sitting in for eglynn) | 21:01 |
| dolphm | o/ | 21:01 |
| notmyname | here | 21:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 19 21:01:27 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:01 |
| mikal | Hi | 21:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:01 |
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| ttx | Our agenda for today is available at: | 21:01 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:01 |
| ttx | #topic News from the 1:1 sync points | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "News from the 1:1 sync points (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:01 | |
| ttx | Here is the log link: | 21:01 |
| ttx | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2014/ptl_sync.2014-08-19-08.01.html | 21:02 |
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| ttx | Trove and Heat were skipped due to midcycle meetups. We missed Glance as well, ptl in vacation | 21:02 |
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| ttx | dolphm wanted to raise attention to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/113294/ which blocks their high-prio keystone-to-keystone-federation blueprint | 21:02 |
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| ttx | so requirements-core can help there ^ | 21:02 |
| stevebaker | here for Heat | 21:02 |
| dolphm | it's worth noting that it requires a binary dependency | 21:03 |
| zaneb | ttx: I'm sending stevebaker on over for Heat questions | 21:03 |
| dolphm | (xmlsec1) | 21:03 |
| ttx | zaneb: ok, thx! | 21:03 |
| ttx | dolphm: is that the only choice for SAML in Python? | 21:04 |
| dhellmann | dolphm: is that in the image infra has for the testing systems? | 21:04 |
| mtreinish | ttx: https://wiki.python.org/moin/SAML | 21:04 |
| dolphm | ttx: i can't answer that myself - marekd stevemar ^ | 21:04 |
| dhellmann | I assume so, if the requirements installation job passed | 21:04 |
| dolphm | dhellmann: not sure of that either - how do i check? | 21:05 |
| dolphm | dhellmann: assuming you're referring to xmlsec1 | 21:05 |
| dhellmann | dolphm: yeah, I'd have to ask someone in -infra, but I think if the tests for that requirements change passed you're ok | 21:05 |
| clarkb | if this is needed by unittests we need to add it explicitly | 21:05 |
| dhellmann | I do see a couple of other saml packages on pypi | 21:05 |
| dhellmann | https://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=saml&submit=search | 21:05 |
| clarkb | if it is only on the devstack side of things then devstack takes care of it | 21:05 |
| clarkb | and our image machinery will cache packages that devstack says it needs | 21:06 |
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| ttx | The lasso lib is packaged in Ubuntu at least | 21:06 |
| dhellmann | clarkb: are the images for the unit tests the same as the image for the requirements check jobs? | 21:06 |
| clarkb | dhellmann: no, requirements check jobs are devstack based | 21:06 |
| dolphm | dhellmann: cool. the catch might be that we need to issue saml docs, not just read/verify them | 21:06 |
| stevemar | dolphm, ttx i think so, the others are fairly out of date, or not as functional | 21:06 |
| jeblair | are we setting ourselves up for more pain similar to lxml? | 21:06 |
| clarkb | dhellmann: so very minimal, then devstack installs the deps | 21:06 |
| marekd | stevemar: dolphm ttx: agreed with stevemar. | 21:07 |
| dhellmann | clarkb: hmm, ok. I knew it was devstack-gate, but I didn't realize it ran devstack itself. | 21:07 |
| ttx | jeblair: could you elaborate on lxml pain? | 21:07 |
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| ttx | I remember pain due to code copies, but i suspect it's not the pain you're referring to | 21:08 |
| clarkb | the problem with lxml is that if I pip install `python-keystoneclient` as a dependency of something else without some dev packages in place lxml won't build | 21:08 |
| clarkb | now keystoneclient doesn't work because the rest of its dependencies were never installed | 21:08 |
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| ttx | clarkb: ok | 21:09 |
| dolphm | clarkb: keystoneclient shouldn't *require* lxml, nor should keystone | 21:09 |
| clarkb | it breaks the simple use case of use cloud | 21:09 |
| dhellmann | is this for keystone, or keystone client? | 21:09 |
| dolphm | clarkb: but of course it's in the requirements.txt .... i'll follow up on that :) | 21:09 |
| clarkb | dhellmann: client | 21:09 |
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| dhellmann | ok, then do we know if that binary dependency is available for windows and mac platforms? | 21:10 |
| jeblair | dolphm: i think mordred proposed a change to try to remove it, and then found out why it was required? | 21:10 |
| dolphm | dhellmann: this will be for keystone first. keystoneclient later, marekd? | 21:10 |
| * jeblair digs | 21:10 | |
| clarkb | jeblair: yup, the xml.etree and lxml.etree objects are different | 21:10 |
| jeblair | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/114701/ | 21:10 |
| dhellmann | dolphm: if it's in the client, what impact will that have one cloud users not running on linux? | 21:10 |
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| dolphm | jeblair: it should only be required for a plugin, but i could be wrong | 21:11 |
| clarkb | there is a tag search or some such in lxml.etree that xml.etree dones't have and keystoneclient uses. So keystoneclient could write a manual search using xml.etree | 21:11 |
| ttx | We don't have to solve this one now, but since it blocks a major Juno keystone feature, it would be great to have closure on that issue sooner rather than later | 21:11 |
| marekd | dolphm: i don't think keystoneclient will need it at all. It will send openstack token, get assertion, and pass it to a remote keystone. | 21:11 |
| dolphm | same for xmlsec1 | 21:11 |
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| ttx | so maybe we can move to a thread | 21:11 |
| alexpilotti | dhellmann: lxml is available for Windows | 21:11 |
| dolphm | ttx: ++ | 21:11 |
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| jeblair | dolphm: yeah, it is, but i think it's a tested one, so we still need it | 21:11 |
| dhellmann | alexpilotti: what about the new dependency for this saml lib? | 21:11 |
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| ttx | now that people are all excited about it | 21:11 |
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| ttx | #info Adding pysaml2 dependency to global requirements is not a slam dunk -- watch out for upcoming ML thread | 21:12 |
| jeblair | dolphm: oh, he moved it to test-requirements, so actually i don't know what was wrong with his change: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/114701/2/test-requirements.txt | 21:12 |
| dolphm | lol | 21:12 |
| ttx | #action dolphm to push pysaml2 requirements addition to -dev ML | 21:12 |
| jeblair | but yeah, if we are able to solve the lxml issue, that will be really nice for users, and i wouldn't want to backslide on it | 21:13 |
| ttx | #topic Other program news | 21:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other program news (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:13 | |
| ttx | Any other program with a quick announcement ? | 21:13 |
| mtreinish | nothing from me | 21:13 |
| clarkb | just a reminder that infra is updating tox and defaulting test nodes to trusty tomorrow | 21:13 |
| mtreinish | oh, except for the devstack governance change being merged | 21:13 |
| clarkb | this is ahead of feature freeze so should be fine and I have done quite a bit of testing | 21:13 |
| clarkb | do ping if you notice oddities | 21:13 |
| stevebaker | I don't think heat is even close to working with new tox | 21:14 |
| gordc | i think we're good in ceilometer. if we can get QA help on grenade testing that'd be cool :) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102354 | 21:14 |
| ttx | We have FPF coming up Thursday for most projects, so I expect a surge in last-minute change uploads | 21:14 |
| jeblair | stevebaker: it's a one line change to fix it | 21:14 |
| ttx | followed by one week of high gate activity | 21:14 |
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| ttx | followed by one week of pure craziness | 21:14 |
| ttx | followed by one week of feature freeze exceptions | 21:14 |
| stevebaker | jeblair: I tried zeroing the seed but there were still test failures, haven't had a chance to look into it yet | 21:15 |
| ttx | OK, anything else before we move to next topic? | 21:16 |
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| ttx | #topic Design summit format evolution (can we make that time as efficient as midcycle meetups ?) | 21:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Design summit format evolution (can we make that time as efficient as midcycle meetups ?) (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:16 | |
| ttx | So... Somewhere lost in the Nova core requirements thread we have an interesting discussion | 21:16 |
| ttx | Noting that mid-cycle meetups are quite successful at aligning key contributors culture, reaching consensus and generally getting things done | 21:17 |
| ttx | What makes them so needed is partly because we fail to reach such alignment at the Design Summits, which are in theory designed for that | 21:17 |
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| ttx | So I would like to use the remaining time in this meeting to brainstorm | 21:17 |
| ttx | Brainstorm things we could still change for the Kilo Design Summit in Paris to make it our most worthwhile F2F time of the cycle again | 21:17 |
| ttx | We can't really fix the fact that it happens the same week as the conference | 21:18 |
| mikal | So, first difference I notice | 21:18 |
| clarkb | stevebaker: I tested it and it works with zeroed seed | 21:18 |
| mikal | With the mid-cycle, we had a list of topics and then found speakers | 21:18 |
| stevebaker | clarkb: ok, I'll give it another crack | 21:18 |
| mikal | With the summit, we take things from a list of proposed sessions | 21:18 |
| ttx | but we can fix the format of the sessions, or dedicate some open time to core discussions | 21:18 |
| jogo | mikal: ++ | 21:18 |
| mikal | Well, I'm going to try brainstormging the topic list as a group this time | 21:18 |
| mikal | And then finding speakers for each "winning" topic | 21:19 |
| jogo | one thing the midcycles are really poor at is cross all project issues | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | someone on the list mentioned no "info dump" sessions, which I think is mostly a good idea, with possible exceptions | 21:19 |
| ttx | From my perspective, each program gets time slots and should do what' sthe best use they have for it | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | mikal: I like that approach | 21:19 |
| jeblair | ttx: ++ | 21:19 |
| stevebaker | If you're not a project which has sessions for the entire summit then the pods can resemble what happens at a mid-cycle meetup | 21:19 |
| jogo | I think it would be nice to focus more attention on the cross project things | 21:19 |
| reed | jogo: +1 | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | jogo: excellent point, maybe more cross-project sessions | 21:19 |
| gordc | mikal: how do you decide the 'winners'? | 21:19 |
| reed | and interaction with users | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | stevebaker: +1 | 21:19 |
| ttx | If the 40-min slots prevent anything... | 21:19 |
| jeblair | apparently the idea of combining slots to make bigger sessions was not widely known as something that could be done | 21:19 |
| dolphm | mikal: we've started to turn that around in keystone already. going into the atlanta summit, we already had a list of "bucket" topics for things we knew we wanted to cover, and then all accepted topics ended up in one of those pre-defined buckets | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | stevebaker: unless your team ends up having to participate in other project sessions :-) | 21:20 |
| mikal | gordc: we have a -drivers group who would probably do that... the people who approve specs | 21:20 |
| reed | and interaction with other 'influencers' | 21:20 |
| mikal | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-nova-summit-topics is my attempt to start brainstorming | 21:20 |
| mikal | Although its not announced / advertised yet | 21:20 |
| ttx | mikal: so you would simply not use the "session proposal site" ? | 21:20 |
| mikal | Given I only started late last night | 21:20 |
| ttx | and just make up a scehdule ? | 21:20 |
| mikal | ttx: I think we'd have to use the site to get the schedule app working | 21:20 |
| mikal | ttx: but we might pre-seed it with things we want to see | 21:20 |
| gordc | mikal: cool cool. yeah that matches up with how we plan our meetup | 21:21 |
| ttx | mikal: right, but we would not use it as a way to build the agenda | 21:21 |
| dhellmann | I might use a hybrid approach, and allow some proposals from outside of the oslo drivers but reserve a number of slots for our ringer sessions | 21:21 |
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| mikal | dhellmann: Yeah, I imagine we'll do the same | 21:21 |
| rockyg | bucket topics are key. How about allot time for bucket, then separate time for serendipidity topics? | 21:21 |
| mikal | A bucket list of core topics, and then take the rest from proposals | 21:21 |
| rockyg | mikal: ++ | 21:22 |
| dolphm | mikal: ++ | 21:22 |
| mikal | Nova also gets fewer sessions each summit | 21:22 |
| mikal | So we need to learn to be more efficient with our time | 21:22 |
| rockyg | Also, a final wrap up session that solidifies focus for the coming release? | 21:22 |
| ttx | mikal: would you be using 40-min slots for your topic list ? Or more a generic 2-hour prebooked area in the schedule ? | 21:22 |
| dolphm | with 8 or 9 slots, keystone only ended up with 1 non-bucketish slot | 21:22 |
| mikal | ttx: I am unsure. I don't have an opinion yet. | 21:23 |
| ttx | called something intimidating like "core contributors gathering" | 21:23 |
| mikal | ttx: it would also be good to not have full day nova things this time around | 21:23 |
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| ttx | FWIW Neutron had generic "culture" slots last time | 21:23 |
| jgriffith | my head exploded :) | 21:23 |
| mikal | I'd prefer half days to let people hallway track contentious things | 21:23 |
| notmyname | nova shouldn't really complain about the number of slots they get at the summit ;-) | 21:23 |
| dolphm | mikal: +++ | 21:23 |
| ttx | notmyname: sssh, if they drop some that frees more for the others! | 21:23 |
| jgriffith | one of the things I've noticed seems to "help" with the meetups is no time assignments | 21:24 |
| mikal | notmyname: not complaining, noting we need to learn to fit into a smaller thing | 21:24 |
| jgriffith | maybe a blend of that and time limits? | 21:24 |
| mikal | jgriffith: yeah, some things need to be time boxed or they never end | 21:24 |
| jgriffith | jogo: problem is as you said cross-project stuff | 21:24 |
| jgriffith | impossible to scheduler time | 21:24 |
| jgriffith | mikal: that's for srue | 21:24 |
| ttx | jgriffith: sure. We can have a mix of a half-day to cover several topics, and 40-min sessions to cover specific predetermiend stuff | 21:24 |
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| rockyg | how about BoFs for topics between end of scheduled day and parties? | 21:24 |
| jgriffith | but the other thing we're proposing is no topics without at least POC code | 21:24 |
| jogo | jgriffith: yeah that is the tricky part. but I don't know a better time to do that | 21:25 |
| clarkb | rockyg: problem with that is by then everyone is dead | 21:25 |
| jgriffith | ttx: I like that idea | 21:25 |
| jgriffith | mix | 21:25 |
| mikal | jgriffith: I've mooted requiring a spec | 21:25 |
| mikal | jgriffith: the bucket list thing might mean we water that down a bit | 21:25 |
| ttx | rockyg: hat may not be possible dut to arrengements with conference space | 21:25 |
| clarkb | rockyg: I think we would like to have something like that but in reality people want to get rid of bags and detox for the day | 21:25 |
| jogo | a bunch of issues that we had to sort out at the summit are now solved in specs | 21:25 |
| ttx | mikal: there is some risk in keeping the "session proposal" thing but having even less slots to fit them in | 21:25 |
| jgriffith | jogo: +1 | 21:25 |
| rockyg | clarkb: except the ones who really want to get something ironed out, but then they might be tame enough to come to agreement ;-) | 21:26 |
| jgriffith | mikal: so you're saying you've proposed requiring specs? | 21:26 |
| jgriffith | mikal: approved or submitted? | 21:26 |
| mikal | jgriffith: yes | 21:26 |
| mikal | Submitted | 21:26 |
| annegentle | feedback I got from Atlanta was that people assumed everyone knew everyone already | 21:26 |
| jgriffith | mikal: seems that would go a long way | 21:26 |
| jogo | mikal: they should be submitted and contentious | 21:26 |
| mikal | annegentle: I heard that from some internal people | 21:26 |
| dolphm | informal poll: what percentage of sessions end up being recurring themes summit to summit? | 21:26 |
| mikal | I kind of objected | 21:26 |
| annegentle | yah mikal | 21:26 |
| mikal | I don't want to spend 5 minutes at the beginging of each timeslot doing intros | 21:26 |
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| dolphm | for keystone, it's about 70-80% ongoing broad topics | 21:27 |
| jgriffith | -1 on intros | 21:27 |
| annegentle | I think the room layout and joined chairs were the problem there, not intros each session | 21:27 |
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| jgriffith | time is too valuable :( | 21:27 |
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| jgriffith | maybe a pre-session meet and great :) | 21:27 |
| jgriffith | greet | 21:27 |
| ttx | OK how about this strawman: let's drop the "open suggestions for design summit sessions" system and let the PTL handle the schedule in ML disucssions | 21:27 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: yeah, we need to be more assertive about just moving the chairs ourselves on the first day | 21:27 |
| dolphm | jgriffith: == show up early | 21:27 |
| jgriffith | dolphm: exactly | 21:27 |
| mikal | ttx: that's an interesting idea | 21:27 |
| annegentle | I hate talking about the same issues summit after summit though. Hm. | 21:28 |
| markmcclain | ttx: I like that idea | 21:28 |
| ttx | side benefit being, less confusion about the summit CFP | 21:28 |
| mikal | ttx: it does push a lot of that into email though | 21:28 |
| ttx | I know Heat did it like that | 21:28 |
| mikal | ttx: which is harder to keep on top of | 21:28 |
| ttx | iirc | 21:28 |
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| dolphm | ttx: that would certainly upset companies that use design summit session proposals to see who gets to go to the summit or not. so ++ because that's dumb. | 21:28 |
| jgriffith | ttx: hmm... not a bad idea, although I end up cherry picking anyway regardless of what's proposed :) | 21:28 |
| jgriffith | or worse rewriting them :) | 21:28 |
| notmyname | personally, I don't like that because basically we'll still end up with submissions that need to be prioritized and scheduled, but now without a tool. | 21:28 |
| ttx | mikal: side benefit, you get rid of weird session proposals that don't come from core team | 21:28 |
| dhellmann | ttx: so we would ask people to propose on the ML, or they would have to propose to us directly? | 21:28 |
| annegentle | ttx: that "no proposals" might just make us look like cliques | 21:28 |
| ttx | dhellmann: each PTL would come up with stuff, can be a meeting, a ML... | 21:28 |
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| notmyname | also, submitting to the ML may (or may not) have a social barrier to those timid about their idea | 21:28 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: my belief is if you don't get to it, you handle it in a meetup or other method | 21:29 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: I can show you how I use note cards for that... :-) | 21:29 |
| dolphm | dhellmann: published a strawman schedule on list and ask for feedback? | 21:29 |
| dolphm | publish* | 21:29 |
| jgriffith | some topics require more time | 21:29 |
| ttx | Also all bear in mind that it's the Kilo PTLs that will do that | 21:29 |
| dolphm | dhellmann: i would not recommend starting from scratch; or if you do start from scratch, do so in an IRC meeting with a smaller audience | 21:29 |
| notmyname | annegentle: ++ | 21:29 |
| ttx | poor souls | 21:29 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: the social barrier is a good point, though -- we might not have had any discussion of i18n if that had been the rule | 21:29 |
| dhellmann | dolphm: makes sense | 21:29 |
| annegentle | I do sense we need to recruit to shape what we want, I do | 21:30 |
| rockyg | come up with the core topics and schedules and let folks propose topics that fit in with the flavor"? | 21:30 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: annegentle OpenStack is no place for the shy | 21:30 |
| ttx | annegentle: I just feel like having session suggestions but even less slots to fit them in is setting wrong expectations | 21:30 |
| mikal | I'm just going to ask people to brainstorm on an etherpad I think | 21:30 |
| jgriffith | just sayin | 21:30 |
| mikal | And then sit down with drivers and come up with a plan from that | 21:30 |
| dhellmann | jgriffith: but we don't have to make it any harder | 21:30 |
| jgriffith | mikal: +1 | 21:30 |
| annegentle | jgriffith: well, think of it as an extroverted woman who still has to face a sea of extroverted men :) | 21:30 |
| sdague | well QA team evolves an etherpad for about a month leading up to the design summit to ensure that certain topics get covered, so is already doing something like this | 21:30 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: I agree | 21:30 |
| mikal | It worked for the mid-cycle, therefore... | 21:30 |
| dhellmann | mikal: etherpad seems like a good idea | 21:31 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: anonymous etherpad might work | 21:31 |
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| annegentle | ttx: yes the continual squeezing is not solvable right now | 21:31 |
| jgriffith | as mikal just suggested | 21:31 |
| dhellmann | jgriffith: if 2 people suggest it, that means we do it, right? :-) | 21:31 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: :) | 21:31 |
| annegentle | I discuss what we want at weekly doc team meetings also | 21:31 |
| mtreinish | sdague: kind of, mostly it's people put things in the tool | 21:31 |
| mtreinish | and then we bug them to add it to the etherpad | 21:31 |
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| ttx | #info Strawman suggestion: do not use "design summit session suggestion" website this time around | 21:32 |
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| sdague | mtreinish: the etherpad usually has content before the tool :) | 21:32 |
| notmyname | there's always been a lot of confusion of what is submitted where (conference vs summit sessions). we've been pretty good about having a defined process so far about how and when to do summit suggestions | 21:32 |
| rockyg | Get new ideas from community through specs that get discussed on etherpads | 21:32 |
| ttx | What about the 40-min slots ? Their main goal is to align the schedule with the conference, so that you don't end up missing things because they are misaligned | 21:32 |
| mtreinish | sdague: heh, well I guess it depends on the people submitting... | 21:32 |
| mtreinish | it's normally a mix | 21:32 |
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| gordc | what we did in ceilometer was take all the proposals and have all the core members rank the ones they'd want... i think ultimately it's on the core team to figure out what gets selected.. (whether it's their idea or not) | 21:33 |
| notmyname | ttx: FWIW, we cut some of those in half in atlanta jsut to fit in a few more. we "manually" managed the timing | 21:33 |
| dhellmann | gordc: yeah, I like that, too | 21:33 |
| dolphm | having everything predefined might eliminate the confusion about why powerpoint presentations aren't welcome in the design summit | 21:33 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: I've done that for oslo, too | 21:33 |
| markmcclain | so proposals and selection is only part of it… there is a difference in the people in attendance at the events | 21:33 |
| david-lyle | Horizon split almost all sessions | 21:33 |
| markmcclain | mid-cycles folks tend to be more in tune with core project direction | 21:33 |
| rockyg | how about a design board session for new ideas? One slot for all to talk about their stuff, then leave the boards for everyone to review? | 21:34 |
| notmyname | so, I'd support having official 20-minute blocks that are scheduled, realizing that some sessions will take 2 of them | 21:34 |
| gordc | david-lyle: i wasn't a fan of split sessions since it ended up being two rushed topics... did it work well in horizon? | 21:34 |
| ttx | I think not having a website-driven CFP will definitely remove some powerpoint | 21:34 |
| dolphm | gordc: we did that as well for the few topics that were close calls | 21:34 |
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| notmyname | gordc: yes, it does make it _really_ rushed | 21:34 |
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| david-lyle | gordc, for the most part not overly rushed | 21:34 |
| markmcclain | ttx: neutron had a no powerpoint rule :) | 21:34 |
| david-lyle | not always an equal split either | 21:34 |
| sdague | ttx: I think the fixed time block is actually the key issue, because as was brought up in various threads, some topics need airing out. And turns out that only in hour 2 get to something useful. And then other topics that seem to be important turn into "oh, yeh, so we kind of figured that out already, all agreed" and are done in 5 minutes | 21:35 |
| david-lyle | I think most of the work needs to be done pre-summit anyway | 21:35 |
| annegentle | I think the fixed time block helps with intro/icebreaking/I belong/ etc | 21:35 |
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| annegentle | er | 21:35 |
| rockyg | if you do design board and do it early, you can use stikies to vote like the agile process uses. Then the most votes at the end also get a session. | 21:35 |
| sdague | not that I have any idea how you'd do a 6 track DS without fixed blocks | 21:35 |
| ttx | sdague: so, another strawman, we could just have lists of topics we would cover between two breaks | 21:35 |
| gordc | david-lyle: cool cool. yeah. presummit work is definitely something important | 21:35 |
| stevebaker | we generally have to duplicate the CFP listings into an etherpad to collaborate on, but other parts of the CFP site workflow are nice | 21:35 |
| jgriffith | david-lyle: +1 | 21:35 |
| jgriffith | preperation is key | 21:35 |
| ttx | that gives a bit of flexibility | 21:35 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: how long would those blocks be? | 21:35 |
| annegentle | I just said the opposite of what I meant. get rid of super fixed time blocks to help with flows | 21:35 |
| jogo | ttx: the issue with that is if folks want to jump between tracks | 21:35 |
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| ttx | and "some" alignement with conference | 21:35 |
| jogo | ttx: but that may be a good tradeoff | 21:35 |
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| sdague | ttx: possibly, I know in portland we reordered the list a lot to keep flow going. | 21:36 |
| dhellmann | jogo: right, we would be constantly chasing devs to get them to come to the oslo room to talk about some cross-project concern | 21:36 |
| annegentle | ttx: we don't have room for the "pods" do we? | 21:36 |
| ttx | dhellmann: time between start of day and first break, then between break and lunch, then... | 21:36 |
| jeblair | jogo: infra only has a handful of slots, but most of us spend _absolutely all of our time_ attending other tracks because of what we do | 21:36 |
| dhellmann | ttx: right, but how many hours is that? | 21:36 |
| ttx | annegentle: probably not that much | 21:36 |
| dhellmann | ttx: rough guess? 3? | 21:36 |
| jeblair | so if track-jumping is harder, there may be an impact to our ability to do that. i'm not sure i'm going to complain :) | 21:36 |
| annegentle | 2.5 maybe? | 21:36 |
| notmyname | ttx: would that be like scheduling at some conferences (eg pycon comes to mind) where there is a block bounded by a break, and there are a few sessions scheduled in it, but it isn't designed for you to leave half-way through | 21:37 |
| ttx | dhellmann: http://junodesignsummit.sched.org/ shows... | 21:37 |
| annegentle | if we have the cross-project slots again that'll help? | 21:37 |
| ttx | 2/3 sessions | 21:37 |
| jgriffith | jeblair: you won't get rid of me in your tracks that easily | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | ttx: yeah, so about 2.5 hrs, not too bad | 21:37 |
| ttx | 2h20 | 21:37 |
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| ttx | or 1h30 | 21:37 |
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| dhellmann | notmyname: you are actually meant to be able to get up and leave at any point in those blocks, though | 21:38 |
| ttx | notmyname: the key benefit is that is one topic needs an extra 10min, that's fine | 21:38 |
| notmyname | dhellmann: well, yeah. you can. but I mean that there isn't as long of a transistion between each | 21:38 |
| ttx | and if a topic needs 10min left that's fine too | 21:38 |
| ttx | less* | 21:38 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: true | 21:38 |
| notmyname | ttx: right. so schedule longer blocks and keep going until you're done with the topics in that block | 21:39 |
| dhellmann | again, maybe some combination? if we have topics we expect to need input from others on, those would have to start a block of time | 21:39 |
| ttx | In all cases we'll have the cross-project stuff, and that would probably be organized as 40-min sessions | 21:39 |
| dhellmann | and then anything that is team-specific could come after | 21:39 |
| ttx | and we'll probably use the design summit suggestion site to get suggestions | 21:39 |
| dhellmann | that way other teams would know "oslo is talking about the db library right after lunch" or whatever | 21:39 |
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| dolphm | how are we going to plan cross-project sessions? mikal's etherpad approach in this meeting? | 21:40 |
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| ttx | dolphm: tbd | 21:40 |
| sdague | dolphm: honestly, that's basically how we did it last time | 21:40 |
| ttx | last time it was a TC thing, right? | 21:40 |
| sdague | ttx: yeh | 21:40 |
| ttx | or a all-PTL maybe | 21:40 |
| sdague | about 6 tc member volunteered | 21:40 |
| notmyname | ttx: if you want off-the-wall ideas, what about getting rid of per-program tracks all together and just doing cross-project. let midcycle meetups and hallway track handle per-program stuff | 21:40 |
| notmyname | not that there aren't (big) disadvantages to that | 21:41 |
| dolphm | sdague: iirc, it was a smaller group that did most of the planning. i think that worked out pretty well, but i ended up getting to the summit and kicking myself for not suggesting a couple topics | 21:41 |
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| ttx | notmyname: that would make midcycle meetups extra design summits, basically.... mandatory presnce | 21:41 |
| gordc | dolphm: that's on you.lol | 21:41 |
| ttx | that may be the only solution, but i want to explore solutions to avoid that | 21:41 |
| notmyname | ttx: yes. but I've already had people asking me why there are 4 swift dev events a year now :-) | 21:41 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: do we have enough cross-project to warrant that? | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | ttx: should we still keep scheduled times for the cross-project discussions? | 21:42 |
| dolphm | gordc: i don't disagree, i just feel like i missed out on visibility into the process somehow | 21:42 |
| rockyg | how about an unconference in parallel with the standard sessions? | 21:42 |
| jeblair | notmyname: i think the idea is to try to make the summit useful enough to not need mid-cicles | 21:42 |
| jeblair | cycles even | 21:42 |
| ttx | dhellmann: probably. We'll have several in parallel, some hoping from session to session is a must | 21:42 |
| notmyname | jeblair: two week summits? :-) | 21:42 |
| gordc | dolphm: agreed. maybe all PTL should be there to have a voice. | 21:42 |
| jeblair | at least, not have them be so critically important | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | dolphm: now that we've done it once, I think having a larger group with input would work OK, so maybe we should expand it this year. | 21:42 |
| jeblair | notmyname: only in paris :) | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | ttx: right, that's what I was thinking | 21:42 |
| jeblair | notmyname: not in atlanta :) | 21:42 |
| notmyname | jeblair: forget that! I'm going to spain after paris :-) | 21:42 |
| jgriffith | jeblair: +1 | 21:43 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: ugh, no, not atlanta, but paris would be ok :-) | 21:43 |
| jgriffith | so in all seriousness for a second.... | 21:43 |
| ttx | design summit 2nd week at my house | 21:43 |
| mikal | I don't think mid-cycles exist because of problems with the summit | 21:43 |
| dhellmann | ttx: easy sell | 21:43 |
| jgriffith | What I'd like to propose for Cinder is requirement of POC code | 21:43 |
| mikal | They exist because six months is a long time | 21:43 |
| jgriffith | maybe do somethign around time slots | 21:43 |
| mtreinish | ttx: +1 | 21:43 |
| mikal | And projects are more complicated / contentious than they used to be | 21:43 |
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| jgriffith | but also ideally have an open *day* for informal cinder participants to hammer some things out | 21:44 |
| gordc | mikal: agreed. i feel like summit is first stage of vetting, and then meetups end up being second. | 21:44 |
| dhellmann | jgriffith: I'm definitely going to require specs this time, but I'm not sure about code | 21:44 |
| jgriffith | sort of like unconf, but just "hey, meet over here if you want" | 21:44 |
| jeblair | mikal: true, but how much of what happens at mid-cycle could-have/should-have been able to be handled at a summit under ideal conditions? | 21:44 |
| notmyname | jeblair: like the ATL pods? | 21:44 |
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| jgriffith | dhellmann: yeah, I'm torn on that | 21:44 |
| ttx | mikal: I would disagree with that. More complex open source projects do very well with 6 months | 21:44 |
| notmyname | jeblair: the pods were great for swift in atl | 21:44 |
| rockyg | jgriffith: ++ | 21:44 |
| dhellmann | jgriffith: I see + and - | 21:44 |
| jgriffith | kinda depends on what ideas people propose :) | 21:44 |
| ttx | mikal: example: kernel summits | 21:44 |
| mikal | ttx: are they more directive though? The kernel handles this by Linux being a dictator for example | 21:44 |
| mikal | ttx: we have a more collaborative style than the kernel, and I for one like that | 21:45 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: ceilometer used them a lot, too, but the oslo team didn't because of being tied up in other teams as well | 21:45 |
| jeblair | mikal: in some ways, but it's not like linus decides the features; people still come in with all kind of proposals; it's just one guy gets a global veto | 21:45 |
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| mikal | jeblair: well, one guy and his team of hench people | 21:45 |
| ttx | mikal: I think we fail to reach alignment on goals at the summit, and as we get closer to the end of the cycle, thaat lack of alignment bites us, and it overtakes the whole midcycle meetups which used to just be workshops/hackathons | 21:46 |
| annegentle | honestly when docs has had something similar to "midcyle meetup" it was the small group and lack of distractions that made it useful | 21:46 |
| mikal | We don't have any concept for subsystem maintainers | 21:46 |
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| dhellmann | annegentle: +1 | 21:46 |
| annegentle | but I do think mikal's point is right | 21:46 |
| jeblair | ttx: i think that's a good way of putting it | 21:46 |
| annegentle | complexity and contentiousness (is that a word?) | 21:46 |
| dolphm | annegentle: ++ | 21:46 |
| jeblair | ttx: there's room to be more effective at the summits | 21:46 |
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| ttx | In less conflictual projects, they use midcycle gatherings to get things done, rather than to reach the alignemnt they miss | 21:46 |
| mikal | annegentle: its a word in Australia | 21:46 |
| annegentle | mikal: nice. I'll move there now. | 21:47 |
| mikal | I don't think conflictual is a word though | 21:47 |
| ttx | and I think that's the most productive setup | 21:47 |
| ttx | mikal: it's a word in france. | 21:47 |
| notmyname | ttx: I can relate to that for swift | 21:47 |
| mikal | Heh | 21:47 |
| mikal | So... I think we've stopped making forward progress here | 21:47 |
| mikal | I agree that we should try to make summits more effective | 21:47 |
| mikal | We have some ideas about that | 21:47 |
| ttx | mikal: I don't really seek progress, I seek ideas :) | 21:47 |
| mikal | Let's see how it goes and then work out what to do with mid-cycles later | 21:48 |
| annegentle | mikal: ++ | 21:48 |
| ttx | FWIW the Kilo design summit will be organized by the Kilo PTLs, so we can't really all make decisions for them | 21:48 |
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| jeblair | ttx: that argument is recursive | 21:48 |
| ttx | I just want to have options proposed and explored beforehand | 21:48 |
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| notmyname | ttx: have you considers a website that lets us submit ideas so you can schedule when we talk about them? | 21:48 |
| dolphm | but we can tell them what *not* to do :) | 21:48 |
| ttx | notmyname: hmm. | 21:49 |
| jeblair | ttx: also, kilo ptls should be participating in this meeting :) | 21:49 |
| ttx | Side benefit of having time areas with lists of topics to cover, that shall reduce accidental attendance | 21:50 |
| annegentle | woops! I attended! | 21:50 |
| rockyg | put the ideas on an etherpad, post location to the ml and let people brainstorm. then collect up the best ideas and discuss. | 21:50 |
| ttx | Like "this title looks good, let's show up" | 21:50 |
| jeblair | ttx: right, having 40 mins to kill between sessions cuts both ways | 21:50 |
| stevebaker | we might need runners to go out and fetch key people to attend micro-topics ;) | 21:51 |
| notmyname | so what is the actual problem to solve? efficient use of time? making midcycle meetups superfluous? | 21:51 |
| ttx | stevebaker: that's the main drawback. The current scheduling makes sure to reduce overlap between horizontal and vertical programs | 21:51 |
| gordc | how about adding tags/keywords to sessions and they can be organized that way? although i guess that puts pressure on ptl to come up with proper tags | 21:52 |
| notmyname | just making sure people know when and where to be? | 21:52 |
| ttx | by keeping vertical programs in large blocks, and spreading vertical programs all around | 21:52 |
| ttx | If we switch to a minimum of 1h30 time slots, we'll create "Heat can't attend QA" symptoms again | 21:52 |
| gordc | notmyname: all of the above | 21:52 |
| rockyg | ttx: but that really kill cross project collaboration | 21:52 |
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| jeblair | so i think in that case we have to have a really strong focus on cross-project sessions | 21:53 |
| ttx | notmyname: the problem I want to solve is reaching more clarity and alignment at Design Summits | 21:53 |
| annegentle | rockyg: I find it really really hard no matter what due to size/scope. We need to invent the time-turner | 21:53 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: +1 | 21:53 |
| annegentle | rockyg: it being cross-project | 21:54 |
| jeblair | i think they were really good last time, but honestly, still under-attended; we definitely could have used some more ptls there | 21:54 |
| annegentle | ttx: yep that | 21:54 |
| rockyg | annegentle: Im willing to beta test the time-turner! | 21:54 |
| david-lyle | I think cross-project work should happen in cross-project sessions, I envision the summits being more about defining the work for the release as a collective upfront and spending time in individual project teams discussing how to best meet those goals | 21:54 |
| ttx | More often than not I feel like we are talking about stuff at design summit but fail to come up with a clear consensus, actionable items, and team alignment on release goals | 21:55 |
| annegentle | david-lyle: I like this utopia of which you speak | 21:55 |
| jogo | david-lyle: oh I like that idea | 21:55 |
| ttx | sometims I feel we are trying to cover too much and end up covering nothing | 21:56 |
| dolphm | david-lyle: nit: "defining the work" == "herding cats" ... i'd prefer "agreeing on design/solutions" so that when the work does happen (this release or next) we've got something to point to saying "we already discussed how this should look" | 21:56 |
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| annegentle | maybe summits already are cross project and hence the difficulty due to scope/complexity | 21:56 |
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| ttx | and part of it is the 40-min slot thing, and some of it is the mass of suggestions we receive with the open CFP | 21:57 |
| rockyg | so, how do we merge david-lyles idea and ttxs concerns to reach solid plans? | 21:57 |
| ttx | I don't want us to sift through hundreds of proposals while we all know what we should talk about | 21:57 |
| ttx | data point, the summit conference CFP received something like 1,200 proposals | 21:57 |
| ttx | CFP spamming is a popular sport | 21:58 |
| annegentle | ttx: right | 21:58 |
| dolphm | and how many sessions did we have, total? | 21:58 |
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| ttx | i can answer that question | 21:58 |
| notmyname | the summit is (1) the only place where all the teams gather and (2) the visible place for attracting new people. | 21:58 |
| notmyname | I don't think it fair to say "we all know what we should talk about" | 21:58 |
| ttx | 34 slots * 6 rooms (including incubated, "other projects" and cross-project sessions) | 21:59 |
| mikal | notmyname: I agree | 21:59 |
| notmyname | not using the summit time for cross-project talk seems a waste, IMO | 21:59 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: yeah, I know that's not the case for oslo. | 21:59 |
| annegentle | notmyname: agreed | 21:59 |
| mikal | Summit is more cross project than mid-cycles | 21:59 |
| notmyname | and making it easy for new people to participate seems important | 21:59 |
| mikal | And the cross project stuff is important too | 21:59 |
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| mikal | Even if it distracts from just delivering the latest release of project X | 21:59 |
| notmyname | mikal: in fact, our midcycle meetups have the rule "no intro to swift" topics | 21:59 |
| mikal | notmyname: the nova ones don't even do background info... | 22:00 |
| dolphm | wow, so we end up rejecting or merging over 80% of the session proposals?! | 22:00 |
| mikal | notmyname: its straight into "what's wrong with migraion 128 and how do we fix it" | 22:00 |
| notmyname | mikal: right. | 22:00 |
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| ttx | dolphm: that 1,200 figure is for the summit conference-sideCFP | 22:00 |
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| dolphm | ttx: oh, not design summit proposals? | 22:00 |
| ttx | we had about twice as much proposals than we had slots. But I expect the numebr of proposals tto go up. | 22:01 |
| ttx | since Paris is popular | 22:01 |
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| ttx | and getting your stuff accepted can be your ticket to go | 22:01 |
| ttx | and we are off tim | 22:01 |
| notmyname | ttx: yup | 22:01 |
| ttx | e | 22:01 |
| notmyname | ttx: where do we continue? | 22:01 |
| notmyname | the conversation? | 22:01 |
| ttx | so we should expect a surge in proposals if we keep the web-driven CFP | 22:01 |
| ttx | notmyname: I'll raise a new thread | 22:01 |
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| ttx | so that we can continue exploring options | 22:01 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone, that was a good talk | 22:02 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 22:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 19 22:02:18 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-08-19-21.01.html | 22:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-08-19-21.01.txt | 22:02 |
| SergeyLukjanov | thx | 22:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-08-19-21.01.log.html | 22:02 |
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