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| mestery | Hi | 14:00 |
| sbalukoff | Hello! | 14:00 |
| s3wong | hello | 14:00 |
| sballe | morning | 14:00 |
| rm_work | o/ | 14:00 |
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| dougwig | morning | 14:00 |
| mestery | #startmeeting neutron_lbaas | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 22 14:00:48 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_lbaas)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_lbaas' | 14:00 |
| mestery | Does anyone know if blogan will be joining soon? A lot of the agenda came from him. :) | 14:01 |
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| dougwig | he's probably hunting down caffeine. | 14:01 |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/LBaaS#Meeting_22.05.2014 Agenda | 14:01 |
| s3wong | enikanorov not here? | 14:01 |
| ptoohill | He should be jumping in here shortly | 14:01 |
| ptoohill | blogan that is | 14:01 |
| rm_work | enikanorov is on vacation still | 14:01 |
| mestery | ptoohill: dougwig: Thanks! | 14:01 |
| mestery | Yes, enikanorov is still on vacation this week. | 14:02 |
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| mestery | OK, lets get started here then while we wait for blogan to join. | 14:02 |
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| mestery | #topic Updated Object Model Blueprint | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Updated Object Model Blueprint (Meeting topic: neutron_lbaas)" | 14:03 | |
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| mestery | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/89903/ | 14:03 |
| mestery | blogan has updated enikanorov's BP, I encourage everyone to review this. | 14:03 |
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| mestery | Getting this reviewed and approved will be good to have done by early next week. | 14:03 |
| mestery | The changes should reflect the discussions we had last week in Atlanta as well, along with all the emails and documents shared over the past few months. | 14:04 |
| mestery | I encourage folks to read that offline and discuss in the review itself. | 14:04 |
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| sbalukoff | Okeedokee | 14:05 |
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| mestery | blogan: Welcome! | 14:05 |
| blogan | mestery: thanks | 14:05 |
| mestery | blogan: I just pointed folks to your spec. | 14:05 |
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| mestery | blogan: Encouraged discussion on the spec itself. | 14:05 |
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| mestery | samuelbercovici: Howdy! | 14:06 |
| mestery | For those who just joined: | 14:06 |
| mestery | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/89903/ | 14:06 |
| blogan | ah great, yeah i'm sure i got some things wrong so please comment on it | 14:06 |
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| sballe | blogan, Is it totally up to date will at the latest changes? | 14:06 |
| samuelbercovici | hello eveyone... | 14:06 |
| sballe | hi sam | 14:06 |
| * mestery waves at samuelbercovici | 14:06 | |
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| xgerman_ | hi | 14:07 |
| samuelbercovici | was the group photo published anywhere? | 14:07 |
| * mestery waits for blogan to answer sballe. | 14:07 | |
| rm_work | oh yeah! I wanted that :) | 14:07 |
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| blogan | you mean the 500 group photos? | 14:07 |
| sballe | not yet. Julian is working on it | 14:07 |
| blogan | sballe: sorry, it is | 14:08 |
| blogan | sballe: actually it does not contain the API changes, just the object model | 14:08 |
| sballe | blogan, thx. I will take a look and comment. | 14:08 |
| blogan | sballe: I've left that to be done in another blueprint so this one can focus on getting the object model correct and making sure the existing API works with it | 14:08 |
| mestery | blogan: +1 to that | 14:09 |
| sballe | blogan, 100% agree | 14:09 |
| mestery | OK, should we move on to the next agenda item? | 14:09 |
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| blogan | sure since people will need tiem to look over that blueprint and comment | 14:09 |
| mestery | Agreed blogan | 14:10 |
| mestery | #topic Creation Workflow with new API | 14:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Creation Workflow with new API (Meeting topic: neutron_lbaas)" | 14:10 | |
| sballe | before we do can we get commitement form at least one person from each company/group to review the bp? | 14:10 |
| mestery | #undo | 14:10 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x3a1e4d0> | 14:10 |
| mestery | sballe: I think that's fair. | 14:10 |
| samuelbercovici | sballe: I will review next week | 14:10 |
| sballe | I would like to set a date and say after that date you have lost your vote | 14:10 |
| sballe | if you haven't reviewed | 14:11 |
| sbalukoff | I'll review early next week as well. | 14:11 |
| dougwig | i'll look this week. | 14:11 |
| xgerman_ | me too | 14:11 |
| sballe | ok so a deadline of May 29? | 14:11 |
| mestery | sballe: How about by next Thursday? | 14:11 |
| sballe | May 28? +1 | 14:11 |
| blogan | sballe: i think the core reviewers will need to look at it as well and be sure there aren't any major issues with it from their perspective | 14:11 |
| rm_work | will enikanorov be back and able to review by then too? | 14:12 |
| mestery | #action LBaaS team to review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/89903/ by May 28. | 14:12 |
| mestery | blogan: Yes, that will happen in parallel. | 14:12 |
| blogan | mestery: ok great | 14:12 |
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| sballe | mestery, please add core reviewers to thta as well | 14:12 |
| mestery | rm_work: I'll talk to him early next week to confirm. | 14:12 |
| mestery | sballe: Yes, I will do that. | 14:12 |
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| mestery | The sooner people review, the faster blogan can iterate on this. :) | 14:12 |
| sballe | mestery, blogan +1 | 14:13 |
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| mestery | OK, lets move on to the next topic then. | 14:13 |
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| sballe | ok | 14:13 |
| crc32 | ok | 14:13 |
| mestery | #topic Creation Workflow with new API | 14:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Creation Workflow with new API (Meeting topic: neutron_lbaas)" | 14:13 | |
| mestery | Please see the agenda, but blogan has proposed some changes here. | 14:13 |
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| mestery | blogan: Can you explain to the group briefly? | 14:14 |
| blogan | well its more of a discussion on this and it comes down to what is considered the root object | 14:14 |
| blogan | so in the new API I've always considered the root object to be the load balancer | 14:14 |
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| blogan | but I'm not sure if others think the root object should be created first, and with the new API I don't think it makes sense to have the load balancer created first, it should be created last | 14:15 |
| sbalukoff | I don't see why either order wouldn't be valid. | 14:15 |
| samuelbercovici | why do we need an order? | 14:15 |
| crc32 | no single call? | 14:15 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff:+1 | 14:15 |
| rm_work | it comes down to what triggers actual provisioning, right? | 14:15 |
| sbalukoff | In my mind, a user should be able to create the individual objects in whatever order they want. | 14:15 |
| blogan | well maybe we don't but at the summit meeting, soemoen asked the order and no one could really answer it | 14:16 |
| dougwig | different vendors may require different orders. as long as the objects hang together at the end, what is the issue? | 14:16 |
| sbalukoff | crc32: Single call should still happen through 'loadbalancer' | 14:16 |
| rm_work | crc32: i think the plan is to do that as a second step, after we get the individual stuff working | 14:16 |
| mestery | So the consensus appears to be order doesn't matter here, right? | 14:16 |
| blogan | single call should happen in another blue print after this is locked down | 14:16 |
| samuelbercovici | +1 | 14:16 |
| mestery | blogan: +1 | 14:16 |
| rm_work | so, if order doesn't matter, what triggers a "GO" for provisioning? | 14:17 |
| dougwig | it'd be safer to say that order matters to a given implementation, and it's not an interface/model question. | 14:17 |
| samuelbercovici | the driver should decide when it has enough information to GO | 14:17 |
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| sbalukoff | rm_work: Once you have a loadbalancer and an associated listener, that's "GO" | 14:17 |
| rm_work | I had assumed it would be: create all sub-objects and link them up, and when you're ready, create the LB object | 14:17 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: yeah, that makes sense | 14:17 |
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| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: that should be fine for now | 14:17 |
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| samuelbercovici | but this is still a diver decision | 14:17 |
| crc32 | ok but when some one says the loadbalancer is not creted first and if loadbalancer is root object then via implication single calls break. | 14:18 |
| rm_work | so then, you create the LB with no listener associated, then update it to link one when you're ready? | 14:18 |
| blogan | so is my understanding of other people's understanding of what a root object wrong here? | 14:18 |
| rm_work | crc32: i'm not sure why that'd be the case | 14:18 |
| xgerman_ | I like things to be explicit so the user gets an error message, e.g. no listener | 14:18 |
| mestery | rm_work: That was blogan's first propsal in the agenda, yes. | 14:18 |
| rm_work | alright, i guess that works | 14:18 |
| dougwig | is the single create something new for juno? because right now, you have to create a pool before associating a vip, e.g. | 14:18 |
| sballe | xgerman_, +1 | 14:18 |
| rm_work | dougwig: yes | 14:19 |
| mestery | dougwig: yes | 14:19 |
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| sbalukoff | I'm not sure I like that: You're essentially saying a loadbalancer must always have a listener associated with it. | 14:19 |
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| rm_work | sbalukoff: which makes sense if it is created last always, but not otherwise <_< | 14:19 |
| rm_work | so yeah | 14:19 |
| sbalukoff | So that having at least one listener is a non-optional attribute in the loadbalancer create call? | 14:19 |
| dougwig | is there a bp for the goal that we're trying to achieve here? | 14:20 |
| crc32 | rm_work: A single call create would create a loadbalancer but others are saying a loadbalancer is not created first therefor the load balancer create is at least the second call or greater. Do you understand that? | 14:20 |
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| rm_work | crc32: i see no hard technical reason that'd be the casse, no | 14:20 |
| rm_work | *case | 14:20 |
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| blogan | i would say leave the single call out of this right now and just talk about the granular calls | 14:21 |
| mestery | dougwig: We're starting with the object model BP referenced earlier. The team has generated lots of google docs over the past few months, I'd encourage catching up on the mailing list archives. | 14:21 |
| ptoohill | crc32 I believe this is talks without the single call at this point | 14:21 |
| rm_work | single call could essentially create all sub-objects first in the background then create the LB with them attached, same as the singular workflow -- difference being, it is internal to the service so there is not multiple round-trips necessary :) | 14:21 |
| blogan | the single call should be easy enough to accomplish | 14:21 |
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| mestery | blogan: +1 | 14:21 |
| crc32 | yea I'll explain that "2" comes after 1 to adam later. | 14:22 |
| rm_work | we're leaving it till later, yes -- but crc32 has a point in that if he was right, it would affect single-call design | 14:22 |
| blogan | so what are yall advocating? | 14:22 |
| rm_work | fortunately he's not right | 14:22 |
| dougwig | i'm guessing you have to send extra info to the api for the single call, which implies you'd also need to send extra info to the driver, at which point order becomes moot, doesn't it? it's the driver's call how to order it. | 14:22 |
| rm_work | so it's fine | 14:22 |
| rm_work | dougwig: right | 14:23 |
| sbalukoff | I've yet to hear a reason why we shouldn't support a load balancer object existing independent of any associated listeners. | 14:23 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: no real hard technical reason, correct | 14:23 |
| mestery | I think we're all in violent agreement here. :) | 14:23 |
| xgerman_ | +1 | 14:23 |
| sbalukoff | So, if there's no technical reason, why enforce this restriction? Let the driver decide when to schedule actually deployment of services. | 14:23 |
| blogan | sbalukoff: there isn't other than the minor issue of when to actually provision the load balancer, but thats trivial to overcome | 14:23 |
| sbalukoff | Haha! | 14:24 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: i agree, it's fine. +1 | 14:24 |
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| xgerman_ | by making provisioning explicit you make it easier for the user to figure out what he missed | 14:24 |
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| xgerman_ | otherwise he creates stuff and wonders why no lb appears | 14:24 |
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| mestery | xgerman_: That's true, it's a user experience thing. | 14:24 |
| blogan | yeah i could see how a user would wonder why after creating a load balancer through the API, they don't actually have a load balancer | 14:25 |
| samuelbercovici | if there was an implicit action on the lb named "provision" | 14:25 |
| rm_work | I mean, if i were doing a multi-call create, *I* would still do the LB last and explicitly link the listener there, definitely | 14:25 |
| samuelbercovici | ? | 14:25 |
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| rm_work | samuelbercovici: interesting, though I could see THAT breaking single-call :) | 14:25 |
| rm_work | since it would be inconsistent then to provision instantly | 14:26 |
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| samuelbercovici | rm_work: actualy single call would populate the database object in whatever order and do provision | 14:26 |
| sbalukoff | So, the problem I have with creating the load balancer last (and enforcing this behavior) is because you will defintiely be following a different work flow when adding a second listener to an existing load balancer. | 14:26 |
| rm_work | right, but that'd be inconsistent, no? | 14:26 |
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| mestery | OK, I'm wondering if we're wandering a bit here. The main focus was on creation order, and I think we've all agreed on that particular point, right? | 14:26 |
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| xgerman_ | yep | 14:27 |
| rm_work | in the multi-call case, you would have a fully fleshed out LB and it would not be provisioned until you said to provision it, but with single call you'd have the same thing and it would auto-provision | 14:27 |
| sbalukoff | mestery: If "It doesn't matter" is the agreement, then I agree. :) | 14:27 |
| sballe | mestery, please summarize what are in agremment on | 14:27 |
| blogan | mestery: as long as people are willing to accept that the user experience may not be as good as possible and allowing any order is fine, then we are all in agreement | 14:27 |
| mestery | sbalukoff: I was under the impression that was the agreement, but I may be confused. | 14:27 |
| xgerman_ | +1 rm_work | 14:27 |
| sballe | blogan, Hey lets' stop here. The reason we are redoing the API etc is becasue of the user experience | 14:28 |
| mestery | rm_work: If that's the main difference, I think it satisfies everyone's requirements here. | 14:28 |
| sballe | so I am not willing to say " to accept that the user experience may not be as good as possible " | 14:28 |
| mestery | blogan sballe: Can you elaborate on the degregated user epxerience? | 14:29 |
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| samuelbercovici | if there is an explicit command to provision than you will get the most predicatable user experience | 14:29 |
| blogan | sballe: i don't like that either, but is enforcing the load balancer creating last a better user experience? | 14:29 |
| sbalukoff | I prefer an implicit provisioning step, because I think this better reflects what will need to happen if certain objects are re-used. | 14:29 |
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| sbalukoff | For example, if I have a pool that's shared among 5 different listeners... | 14:29 |
| sbalukoff | And I update that pool. | 14:29 |
| sbalukoff | Should I, as a user, have to go and "provision" all the listeners afterward? | 14:30 |
| blogan | mestery: what german said before, in that the user may expect a load balancer if they only do the POST to the /loadbalancers resource, but the load balancer isn't actually there until they link up the listener | 14:30 |
| rm_work | ah, true sbalukoff | 14:30 |
| sbalukoff | I think it should be implied that the listeners get updated when a pool they depend on gets updated. | 14:30 |
| xgerman_ | and also we cam throw meaningful error messages | 14:30 |
| xgerman_ | and not wait for an object the user might not know he has to create | 14:30 |
| mestery | blogan xgerman_: That makes sense to me. | 14:31 |
| blogan | so in the neutron API, you can't create a subnet or port without first having a network right? | 14:31 |
| blogan | so in that case the network was created first, or am I wrong | 14:31 |
| rm_work | yeah, order mattering is not a new concept :P | 14:31 |
| blogan | im not even sure this analogy is relevant | 14:31 |
| mestery | blogan: +1 | 14:32 |
| rm_work | blogan: that's what you are saying, right? | 14:32 |
| blogan | rm_work: yeah but I've also been under the opinion that load balancers API doesn't have to work like neutron's | 14:32 |
| blogan | or else we wouldn't be allowing a single create call | 14:33 |
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| blogan | so basically I'm on the fence on this one, I have no good alternative at this point | 14:33 |
| blogan | anyone else have any other alternatives? | 14:33 |
| mestery | Lets try to do the right thing from a user experience thing with this API. sballe, what are your thoughts here? | 14:33 |
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| * sballe thinking | 14:34 | |
| dougwig | it might be useful to consider this in the context of horizon/ui versus cli. it's possible to do a single create/provision wizard with either scheme in a ui, and for the cli, i'm not sure either behavior is clearly more intuitive than the other. | 14:34 |
| dougwig | (i.e. the ui need not directly expose a 'provision' action. or it could equally as easily fake one, if that was the preference.) | 14:35 |
| crc32 | I say do it in single api call but leave provision creation order with LB last internally. | 14:35 |
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| sballe | mestery, I agree with xgerman_ and blogan that we definetly need t make sure we have meaningful Warnings and error messages when thngs aren't intiuitive | 14:35 |
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| ptoohill | I thought it would make sense to be implicit here. So if the user creates all the other sub-objects but no loadbalancer object nothing would be provisioned to the back end. Then if the user attaches these objects to a load balancer the provisioning would happen. This doesnt mean to enforce this order because the user could potentially create only a pool and attach to a load balancer. I think validation should happen here to let them know that | 14:36 |
| ptoohill | other 'required' objects are needed before provisioning. Am i thinking about this wrong? | 14:36 |
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| blogan | ptoohill: in that scenarios what happens when a user creates a load balancer first and nothing else? | 14:36 |
| rm_work | hmm that is a point i guess, if the Listener might not be fully populated when attached to the LB, if it tried to provision it would break | 14:36 |
| ptoohill | validation? | 14:37 |
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| mestery | blogan ptoohill: It would fail and generate an appropriate error back? | 14:37 |
| ptoohill | I would assume that would be the case | 14:37 |
| rm_work | yeah i assume so as well | 14:37 |
| blogan | mestery: that is one option, but I believe sbalukoff had objections to enforcing an order | 14:37 |
| crc32 | blogan: A fault message telling the user they have an empty loadbalancer is returned | 14:37 |
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| mestery | sbalukoff: Opinions on this? | 14:38 |
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| crc32 | blogan: Kinda of like what our(Rackspace CLB1.0) API does untill the nodeless loadbalancer feature cruft came out. | 14:39 |
| sbalukoff | I'm trying to understand any specific scenario that actually qualifies as a "partially populated" listener, or some other object layout which would be erroneous, and how this differs from just "incomplete" | 14:39 |
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| blogan | crc32: oh i get how it would work, but that is enforcing a creation order | 14:39 |
| sbalukoff | I mean, a load balancer without a listener isn't something that makes sense. | 14:39 |
| rm_work | crc32: technically it provisions a working LB according to backend spec :P | 14:39 |
| sbalukoff | But a listener without a pool does make sense | 14:39 |
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| crc32 | rm_work: Cruft the way I see it. Synactic sugar at best. :P | 14:40 |
| sbalukoff | So, I guess I'm trying to understand what y'all are anticipating as a user's understanding of a layout if it's missing some necessary object to be functional. | 14:40 |
| rm_work | yeah, it's cruft… but it's technically correct, which is the best kind of correct | 14:40 |
| rm_work | ^_^ | 14:40 |
| blogan | so another question, it may be a dumb one, but if a load balancer is created last, and a load balancer can have many listeners, how do we specify that relationship on the load balancer call? | 14:40 |
| rm_work | anyway, that's off topic | 14:40 |
| rm_work | i assumed Listeners would be a list? | 14:41 |
| rm_work | or is that not how we wanted to represent it | 14:41 |
| sballe | blogan, Why would we not ask the user to create an "empty" LB first and then attach listeners, etc? | 14:41 |
| crc32 | blogan: with a PUT? | 14:41 |
| blogan | sballe: isn't creating an empty LB a bad user experience though? | 14:42 |
| ptoohill | not really | 14:42 |
| ptoohill | i can see a use case i think | 14:42 |
| rm_work | "loadbalancer" { "listeners": [ a, b, c ] } | 14:42 |
| rm_work | no? | 14:42 |
| sballe | not if we have the adequate warnings to tell them that more is needed | 14:42 |
| rm_work | err,forgot a colon >_> | 14:42 |
| crc32 | rm_work: Via a PUT right? | 14:42 |
| rm_work | PUT or POST | 14:42 |
| samuelbercovici | blogan: you can specify a list of listener ids | 14:42 |
| ptoohill | If the user wants to spin up just the load balancer object then build his pools, listeners etc then attach to the created load balancer as he goes, is this not acceptable? | 14:42 |
| sbalukoff | So I guess, if you're after meaningful error messages, the whole explicit "provisioning" step doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If a load balancer layout is incomplete it isn't in error, it's just incomplete. | 14:42 |
| rm_work | could be like that in the original POST for the create of the LB, i don't see why noy | 14:43 |
| rm_work | *not | 14:43 |
| blogan | sam, rm_work: i'm fine with that, I was just throwing that out there | 14:43 |
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| rm_work | though that then begs, on a PUT to the listeners object, does it do a replace? <_< | 14:43 |
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| blogan | rm_work: one thing at a time | 14:44 |
| rm_work | ah actually sorry, would it be a PUT/DELETE to add/remove via /loadbalancers/<id>/listeners/ | 14:44 |
| rm_work | lol yeah sorry, getting ahead of things a bit | 14:44 |
| blogan | sbalukoff: if create a load balancer is left as the last step, and it is automatically provisioned on that step, would that be fine with you? | 14:44 |
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| xgerman_ | or validated... | 14:44 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: No. Because, again, this is a work-flow that doesn't work if you're trying to add a second listener to an existing load balancer | 14:45 |
| rm_work | blogan: i think that's full circle to what he didn't like to begin with | 14:45 |
| sbalukoff | I want the user to be able to create a loadbalancer object that is not attached to any listener. | 14:45 |
| blogan | sbalukoff: i think there will be a add listener call to existing load balancer | 14:45 |
| crc32 | sbalukoff: I think we need to specify required attributes on our objects and call it an error if those attributes aren't defined in the POST call for the given object. That way we can be sure of what an Error is. Now the question is is a listener a required attribute or not. | 14:45 |
| rm_work | crc32: +1 | 14:46 |
| dougwig | that's implying an order, which i'm not sure is valid for all backends. if you're doing it all in one go, then pass the entire LB/listener config in one go, and it should be up to the driver to figure out order and return meaningful errors (that's the naive user case, that would be surprised at an incomplete config). if not, then it's just creating | 14:46 |
| dougwig | primitives, and it's up to the user to create them all to hang together properly. i'm not sure hand holding is as necessary in the second case. | 14:46 |
| rm_work | dougwig: also +1 | 14:46 |
| sbalukoff | dougwig: +1 | 14:46 |
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| mestery | OK, we have 14 minutes left. | 14:46 |
| mestery | Is it possible to continue this discussion in the BP blogan has filed? | 14:46 |
| sbalukoff | crc32: I would say that 'listener_ids' should not be a required attribute when creating a loadbalancer | 14:46 |
| rm_work | blogan / sballe: i think multi-call can be less polished, as it is designed for advanced users anyway? single-call is supposed to be the user-friendly one anyway <_< | 14:47 |
| mestery | I wanted to cover at least one of the last two items on the agenda. | 14:47 |
| mestery | :) | 14:47 |
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| samuelbercovici | please note that all calls are a-sync so many errors might be due to the provisioning process itslef | 14:47 |
| sbalukoff | mestery: Sure. | 14:47 |
| sballe | rm_work, +1 | 14:47 |
| blogan | mestery: i think that discussion will belong in the second BP that actually implements the API, it might be better to do it on the ML for now until that BP gets put up | 14:47 |
| mestery | blogan: Fair point, actually. And that brings up another point, we need someone to write the second BP covering the API as well. | 14:47 |
| rm_work | so i am willing to go with sbalukoff's option :P | 14:47 |
| sballe | rm_work, please summarize that option | 14:48 |
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| rm_work | sballe: we'll do it on the ML it looks like | 14:48 |
| crc32 | dougwig: The public facing API should have required attributes and optional attributes. I think pushing that off to the driver is a bad idea. | 14:48 |
| mestery | rm_work: MAybe a quick summary here? | 14:48 |
| blogan | mestery: obviously I or someone at rackspace can do it, but if someone wants to get in on the process by all means go for it | 14:48 |
| mestery | Thanks blogan! | 14:48 |
| crc32 | or rather pushing off to the driver to define whats required or not is a bad idea. | 14:48 |
| rm_work | by sbalukoff's option, i just meant "order doesn't matter, and LB can be created by itself". | 14:49 |
| mestery | rm_work: That's a good summary. :) | 14:49 |
| samuelbercovici | which I also like | 14:49 |
| sballe | rm_work, +1 I like sbalukoff option too ;-) | 14:49 |
| dougwig | crc32: agreed. it's just order that's problematic to hardcode, and that can be gotten around by thinking of it as two modes. | 14:49 |
| mestery | Yay! I think we're all in agreement on that one? | 14:49 |
| rm_work | since what we really care about for "user experience" is single call, and it won't have these problems :) | 14:49 |
| rm_work | and will have it's own validation | 14:49 |
| sballe | agreed | 14:50 |
| sbalukoff | Yep. | 14:50 |
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| blogan | awesome we have consensus! | 14:50 |
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| mestery | OK, moving on for the last 10 minutes. | 14:50 |
| dougwig | which of the last two topics is more contentious? (the statement that all we need to change in the driver is renaming vip is dead wrong, but i can take that to the bp review if we run out of time.) | 14:51 |
| mestery | dougwig: I think the last one, though the subnet_id one was also contentious. | 14:51 |
| mestery | LEts take the subnet_id one to the BP maybe. | 14:51 |
| blogan | dougwig: please do I didn't give a lot of thought to it so maybe it should go in the ML because I'm not sure when that 2nd BP will be up | 14:51 |
| mestery | I think it makes sense for folks to comment there. | 14:51 |
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| dougwig | the subnet one took a lot of time at the summit. | 14:51 |
| mestery | dougwig: Yes. :) | 14:51 |
| mestery | Do people want to flesh taht out here for 9 minutes? | 14:52 |
| blogan | mestery: the subnet_id location? | 14:52 |
| mestery | blogan: Yes, per the agenda. | 14:52 |
| sbalukoff | subnet_id should be an attribute of the member. Done. ;) | 14:52 |
| rm_work | summarizing options: subnet_id per poolMember, subnet_id per pool, subnet_id_list on LB? | 14:53 |
| blogan | well to me I've come around on the idea that the subnet_id should be on the pool member, but I obviously am not set in stone on this | 14:53 |
| mestery | sbalukoff: :P | 14:53 |
| crc32 | blogan: I'm on my way in now but I'm talking with sam about some SSL terminology when I get in too so we can work on the BP after that. | 14:53 |
| rm_work | i am for subnet_id on pool member | 14:53 |
| blogan | crc32: okay, unless someone else in this room not from rackspace wants to get in on the process | 14:53 |
| samuelbercovici | i am for subnet_id on lb | 14:53 |
| crc32 | oh ok sorry. | 14:53 |
| blogan | samuelbercovici: do you have strong issues against it being on the pool member? | 14:54 |
| crc32 | heading out now. ETA 20 minutes | 14:54 |
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| samuelbercovici | yes | 14:54 |
| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: I think your concerns about this have to do with the idea that when provisining an appliance in nova, there isn't a way to add a new neutron_port to it afterward, right? | 14:54 |
| rm_work | enumerate your issues? | 14:54 |
| sbalukoff | Yes, sorry-- don't mean to put words in your mouth. | 14:54 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: not only this | 14:55 |
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| rm_work | sbalukoff: is that a limitation? I know there is a way to get around that in Rackspace's implementation, but i guess maybe not in stock Neutron/Nova? | 14:55 |
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| s3wong | sbalukoff: I think we are definitely trying to fix that in ServiceVM | 14:55 |
| samuelbercovici | pool is a logical constructs of ser of memebers | 14:55 |
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| sbalukoff | s3wong: That's good to hear! | 14:56 |
| samuelbercovici | so you should be able to specify memebrs that reside on deifferent subnets | 14:56 |
| sballe | s3wong, any ETA for when this will be fixed? | 14:56 |
| blogan | samuelbercovici: puttin the subnet_id on the pool member allows this | 14:56 |
| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: True, but you can do this if subnet_id is an attribute of Member. | 14:56 |
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| rm_work | i thought that was *specifically* why we wanted it on poolMembers :P | 14:57 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: correct but then you need to do this for all memebrs | 14:57 |
| sbalukoff | Yes. Yes you do. | 14:57 |
| sbalukoff | Well... | 14:57 |
| samuelbercovici | the canonical place is the lb | 14:57 |
| sbalukoff | Ok, so actually no... | 14:57 |
| rm_work | so the objection is that if all members are on the same subnet, it is a lot of redundancy? | 14:57 |
| s3wong | sballe: well, TBH, us in ServiceVM team is still trying to come up with a list of requirements on what makes ServiceVM different from regular VM, and will file bps accordingly | 14:57 |
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| sbalukoff | My thought was that you could have subnet_id be an optional attribute of the member. | 14:58 |
| vivek-eb_ | members in different network is a important requirement for us at ebay too | 14:58 |
| samuelbercovici | also if you use multiple pools for l7, there is redundency there | 14:58 |
| sbalukoff | Having a specified subnet_id implies that the loadbalancer appliance needs layer-2 connectivity to that subnet to talk to the given member. | 14:58 |
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| sbalukoff | Which won't be the case if the member is routed. | 14:58 |
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| rm_work | sbalukoff: though if it's optional, and we DO compile a list of subnets dynamically to use for the LB, and the user puts NO subnets… it might be non-intuitive that it doesn't work? dunno | 14:58 |
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| mestery | OK, we have < 2 minutes left now. | 14:59 |
| mestery | I propose we take this subnet discussion to the BP and/or ML. | 14:59 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: No subnets specified means that all members are routed. :) | 14:59 |
| rm_work | yeah, probably ML | 14:59 |
| mestery | The focus this week is reviewing the BP from blogan. | 14:59 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: theoretically :P but maybe not? :P | 14:59 |
| sbalukoff | Yeah, ML makes sense | 14:59 |
| mestery | Lets all make sure we do that before the meeting next week. | 14:59 |
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| xgerman_ | mestery +1 | 14:59 |
| mestery | Thanks for attending this week everyone! | 14:59 |
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| xgerman_ | thanks | 14:59 |
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| s3wong | thanks | 14:59 |
| sballe | bye | 15:00 |
| mestery | One last thing: I should be sending out notes on the LBaaS mid-cycle today. | 15:00 |
| sballe | and thanks | 15:00 |
| mestery | Look for that on the ML. | 15:00 |
| mestery | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 22 15:00:12 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-05-22-14.00.html | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-05-22-14.00.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-05-22-14.00.log.html | 15:00 |
| samuelbercovici | bye | 15:00 |
| blogan | thanks mestery! | 15:00 |
| sbalukoff | Thanks! | 15:00 |
| eglynn | #startmeeting ceilometer | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 22 15:00:27 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is eglynn. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer' | 15:00 |
| jd__ | o/ | 15:00 |
| llu-laptop | o/ | 15:00 |
| DinaBelova | o/ | 15:00 |
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| nsaje | o/ | 15:00 |
| devlaps | o/ | 15:00 |
| _nadya_ | o/ | 15:00 |
| rhochmuth | o/ | 15:00 |
| fabiog | o/ | 15:00 |
| murphi | o/ | 15:00 |
| eglynn | hey folks, welcome back to reality :) | 15:00 |
| prad | o/ | 15:00 |
| ityaptin | o/ | 15:00 |
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| sileht | o/ | 15:01 |
| gordc | o/ | 15:01 |
| deklan | o/ | 15:01 |
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| eglynn | I trust y'all are nearly over the jet-lag? | 15:01 |
| eglynn | ... and the liver-damage ;) | 15:02 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, I guess so)) | 15:02 |
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| llu-laptop | wake up 3am this morning | 15:02 |
| nsaje | getting there | 15:02 |
| eglynn | llu-laptop: I know the feeling :) | 15:02 |
| eglynn | #topic summit round-up and Juno planning | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "summit round-up and Juno planning (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:02 | |
| eglynn | thanks folks for a very productive summit :) | 15:02 |
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| eglynn | what was the general thought on the project pod idea - useful, or? | 15:02 |
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| llu-laptop | very useful | 15:03 |
| jd__ | yes | 15:03 |
| nsaje | very useful | 15:03 |
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| DinaBelova | really cool | 15:03 |
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| eglynn | ttx was asking all the projects if they wanted a pod again for Paris | 15:03 |
| eglynn | that would be a yes? | 15:03 |
| jd__ | yes sir | 15:03 |
| fabiog | yes | 15:03 |
| sileht | yes | 15:03 |
| murphi | sometimes too noisy, but in general useful | 15:03 |
| gordc | yep | 15:03 |
| murphi | + | 15:03 |
| DinaBelova | definitely +1 | 15:03 |
| llu-laptop | +1 | 15:03 |
| eglynn | BTW if anyone has anything they haven't captured yet in the session etherpads | 15:03 |
| prad | very useful | 15:04 |
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| eglynn | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Juno/Etherpads#Ceilometer | 15:04 |
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| eglynn | prolly good idea to do so before the memory fades too much | 15:04 |
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| eglynn | so, cold light of day ... here's the Juno release schedule | 15:05 |
| eglynn | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Juno_Release_Schedule | 15:05 |
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| eglynn | note the 4-6-6 week cadence for the milestones | 15:05 |
| eglynn | jd__: was that the same last time? | 15:05 |
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| * dhellmann slides in late | 15:05 | |
| eglynn | i.e. the shorter lead-in to miletsone-1? | 15:05 |
| eglynn | dhellmann: welcome :) | 15:06 |
| murphi | eglynn: IIRC, then yes | 15:06 |
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| jd__ | eglynn: IIRC yes | 15:06 |
| eglynn | cool, I guess icehouse had the complication of Winterval also | 15:06 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, I remember i1 being very very close to the summit, almost a "things you didn't finish for havana" milestone | 15:06 |
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| jd__ | i1 was very short | 15:07 |
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| jd__ | we basically merged nothing for i1 :) | 15:07 |
| murphi | eglynn: there were only a few things fixed in the first milestone as the time was too short | 15:07 |
| jd__ | +almost | 15:07 |
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| eglynn | yeah j1 will be tight also | 15:07 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Icehouse_Release_Schedule :) | 15:07 |
| DinaBelova | looks pretty like current one) | 15:07 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: thx! | 15:07 |
| murphi | jd__: was it an opinion about i1? ;) | 15:07 |
| eglynn | copy'n'paste :) | 15:07 |
| fabiog | eglynn: is there a API changes freeze or it is part of the Feature freeze? | 15:07 |
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| eglynn | fabiog: let's talk about freezes in a sec (in relation to j3) | 15:08 |
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| eglynn | first, I was hoping we could coalesce behind a couple of themes for j1 ... | 15:08 |
| eglynn | 1. front-loading some progress on the TC mandated gap-closing actions | 15:08 |
| eglynn | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ceilometer-integration-gap-analysis-coverage-plan | 15:08 |
| eglynn | not much choice there, we gotta do it | 15:09 |
| eglynn | then also ... | 15:09 |
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| eglynn | 2. subset of the team working in parallel on paying down the "architectural debt" | 15:09 |
| eglynn | gnocchi is the silver bullet! :) | 15:09 |
| eglynn | thoughts? | 15:09 |
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| _nadya_ | what is the plan about gnocchi? poc? | 15:10 |
| murphi | eglynn: the doc part did not seem to be that bad according to the docco session on the summit, at least one easy point on the list | 15:10 |
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| _nadya_ | I mean estimates | 15:10 |
| DinaBelova | well as for the TC reqs - #1 on review now, #2 - will be done as discussed on summit, #3 blocked :( #4 - connected with the #3 (in some way), #5 - ? | 15:10 |
| gordc | eglynn: sounds good. i have a patch up that should hopefully get sqlbackend working with multi workers. if it works we can get back to tempest tests. | 15:10 |
| eglynn | gordc: excellent | 15:11 |
| DinaBelova | gordc, eglynn and use testing plan from the etherpad))) | 15:11 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: cdent (welcome!) a new contributor from Red Hat will be working on #5 | 15:11 |
| lsmola | o/ | 15:11 |
| eglynn | _nadya_: do you mean timelines etc.? | 15:11 |
| * cdent waves | 15:11 | |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, oh, cool | 15:11 |
| DinaBelova | cdent, o/ | 15:11 |
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| _nadya_ | eglynn: yep. What do we want to have in j release? | 15:12 |
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| _nadya_ | eglynn: POC or some finished part that works? | 15:12 |
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| murphi | _nady_: everything that fits, so most probably the migration for instance will not be supported by the end of this cycle | 15:12 |
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| eglynn | _nadya_: yes I hoping it'll be in J, at least usable for *new* deployments | 15:12 |
| sileht | DinaBelova, eglynn #5 base code for ceilometer/grenade-> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94468/ | 15:12 |
| DinaBelova | _nadya_, I guess we'll have v3 api (not stable, probably, not default one - but still) - already tested at least on some of the labs | 15:13 |
| eglynn | _nadya_: i.e. where migration isn't an issue | 15:13 |
| _nadya_ | hmm, great plans :) | 15:13 |
| DinaBelova | _nadya_, heh, yep | 15:13 |
| eglynn | sileht: excellent! | 15:13 |
| jd__ | re | 15:13 |
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| _nadya_ | and what the status of tempest+Mongo? does anyone know? | 15:14 |
| murphi | _nadya_: we have big dreams and then we will see ;) | 15:14 |
| jd__ | (sorry I got interrupted by a phone call, reading backlog) | 15:14 |
| _nadya_ | I mean status on Mongo 2.4 on gating | 15:14 |
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| eglynn | _nadya_: I spoke to sdague about enabling f20 gating | 15:15 |
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| eglynn | _nadya_: he's hopeful it'll be available soon | 15:15 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn, did he say about some estimations? | 15:15 |
| eglynn | _nadya_: according to jogo at summit tho', the trusty switchover will be slower than planned | 15:15 |
| jd__ | eglynn: gnocchi is getting good progress on a daily basis for now, I think by next week somebody could start taking a look at how to integrate it with ceilometer data publisher | 15:15 |
| jd__ | we need to work on a lot of detail, but the basics are there now | 15:16 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... no, but he reckoned he was almost ready to +2 ianw's patch to enable the f20 in the nodepool | 15:16 |
| DinaBelova | jd__, I think I may take a look there) | 15:16 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: ok, I see | 15:16 |
| llu-laptop | jd__: great | 15:16 |
| murphi | jd__: cool, that sound really good :) | 15:16 |
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| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... he's got a workaround for the image redundancy issue that'll allow non-voting jobs to run on f20 initially | 15:16 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... even tho' the image isn't available yet in both CI clouds, so non-redundant | 15:17 |
| eglynn | jd__: excellent! | 15:17 |
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| DinaBelova | sileht - did you decide what you'll work on speaking about apiv3 | 15:18 |
| DinaBelova | ? | 15:18 |
| eglynn | jd__: what do you thing of the goal being: gnocchi usuable in prod for j3, but only for new deploys (i.e. no migration support) | 15:18 |
| jd__ | eglynn: sounds good to me | 15:18 |
| sileht | DinaBelova, not yet | 15:19 |
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| _nadya_ | jd__: is gnocchi under development? | 15:19 |
| _nadya_ | jd__: is it used somewhere :)? | 15:19 |
| eglynn | #info over-arching series goal: gnocchi usuable in prod for j3, but only for new deploys (i.e. no migration support) | 15:19 |
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| jd__ | _nadya_: it's under development, not used yet | 15:19 |
| eglynn | _nadya_: still in prototype form | 15:19 |
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| eglynn | at summit we spoke about a 2nd focussed weekly meeting concentrating on gnocchi | 15:20 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, jd__ - great plans, but I guess it might be difficult a little bit))) I mean production ready ceilo deployment))) so more performance testing will be need here anyway, I guess))) | 15:20 |
| DinaBelova | and some benchmarking)) | 15:20 |
| llu-laptop | jd__: so the j3 gnocchi will still based on swift? | 15:20 |
| jd__ | any help appreciated as the project is becoming big enough to not step on each others foot/feet | 15:20 |
| jd__ | DinaBelova: you need to believe! | 15:20 |
| eglynn | jd__, DinaBelova, sileht: would a 2nd weekly make sense, d'ye think? | 15:20 |
| DinaBelova | jd__ :D:D:D | 15:21 |
| DinaBelova | yes, sir! | 15:21 |
| sileht | eglynn, ok | 15:21 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: drink the koolaid, pronto! | 15:21 |
| DinaBelova | :D | 15:21 |
| jd__ | second meeting or recurring topic in this meeting is good ot me | 15:21 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, jd__ - yes, +1 to separated meeting for this | 15:21 |
| eglynn | cool, I'm happy to go with either | 15:21 |
| jd__ | I'd say let's start in this meeting and if we need more time, split it? | 15:22 |
| eglynn | jd__: cool enough, lets go with that | 15:22 |
| cdent | jd__++ | 15:22 |
| murphi | do we need all the meeting topics on this meeting? | 15:22 |
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| murphi | jd__: +1 | 15:22 |
| cdent | It's something that we probably all wanna know about. | 15:22 |
| eglynn | murphi: yeah I think we can drop ceilo client as a recurring topic | 15:22 |
| eglynn | cdent: +1 | 15:23 |
| murphi | eglynn: yes, and also we can talk about tempest, when we really have something to talk about in that topic | 15:23 |
| eglynn | murphi: yep, agree | 15:23 |
| eglynn | murphi: we do today (I think) | 15:23 |
| DinaBelova | murphi ++ | 15:23 |
| eglynn | one other thing on gnocchi ... | 15:23 |
| sileht | eglynn, for #4, APIv1 is already dropped, and the gordc patch seems almost finished, I have a great hope to have ceilometer working correctly in gate very soon. | 15:24 |
| eglynn | amalagon__ (welcome!) has started as the OPW intern this week | 15:24 |
| eglynn | sileht: excellent! :) \o/ | 15:24 |
| amalagon__ | hi all! | 15:24 |
| DinaBelova | sileht, gordc - when we'll have sql backend completely cleaned up it might work, yes) | 15:24 |
| murphi | amalagon__: welcome :) | 15:25 |
| llu-laptop | amalagon__: welcome | 15:25 |
| jd__ | "Ceilometer: a new hope" http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/057/3/8/star_wars_iv___a_new_hope___movie_poster_by_nei1b-d5t3cw9.jpg thanks sileht :D | 15:25 |
| eglynn | Ana will first be re-imaginging how the period-spanning-stats BP intended for v2 will map onto the brave new world of gnocchi | 15:25 |
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| * gordc never seen star wars. | 15:25 | |
| jd__ | hey amalagon__ | 15:25 |
| sileht | ahah | 15:25 |
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| eglynn | who gonna be Luke? ;) | 15:25 |
| DinaBelova | amalagon__, o/ | 15:25 |
| jd__ | oh… #topic Removing gordc from ceilometer-core | 15:25 |
| gordc | lol | 15:25 |
| DinaBelova | gordc 0_0 | 15:25 |
| murphi | jd__: and now everyone should pick a character? :) | 15:25 |
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| DinaBelova | folks, let's move on))) | 15:26 |
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| murphi | gordc: REALLY? :) | 15:26 |
| DinaBelova | too many things to discuss))) | 15:26 |
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| jd__ | cool, who's gonna be Chewbacca? | 15:26 |
| eglynn | jd__: me, Me, ME! | 15:26 |
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| jd__ | :D | 15:26 |
| gordc | murphi: it's on my list... maybe next year... | 15:27 |
| eglynn | just one last thing on the Juno schedule ... | 15:27 |
| murphi | eglynn: well, you have enough hair already ;) | 15:27 |
| eglynn | ... well, one other bit of new-ness that I wanted to run by you guys | 15:27 |
| eglynn | murphi: LOL :) | 15:27 |
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| murphi | gordc: okok, no offence, I just asked :) | 15:27 |
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| eglynn | following the nova lead, more & more projects are aiming to follow the FPF this time round | 15:27 |
| eglynn | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/FeatureProposalFreeze | 15:27 |
| gordc | murphi: :) | 15:28 |
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| eglynn | ... i.e. a deadline for (non-final) patch proposal circa 2 weeks before j3 | 15:28 |
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| eglynn | it just recognizes the reality that shepharding a major feature patch through gerrit cannot be done the day before milestone is cut | 15:28 |
| * eglynn took several cycles to learn that lesson ;) | 15:29 | |
| dhellmann | that deadline means if we haven't even seen a patch for a feature by then, it won't be accepted, right? | 15:29 |
| murphi | eglynn: I guess it can be useful for us, at least there is no last hours patches anymore | 15:29 |
| eglynn | dhellmann: exactly | 15:29 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, well, it's logical | 15:29 |
| gordc | eglynn: works for me. i thought we were already doing that but good to have it in writing. | 15:29 |
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| llu-laptop | murphi: agreed | 15:30 |
| DinaBelova | dhellmann - well, as for the changes on review - they'll be continued to be viewed | 15:30 |
| DinaBelova | ? | 15:30 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn? | 15:30 |
| dhellmann | DinaBelova: yes, that's right | 15:30 |
| eglynn | so I gotta put my hand up, I was the worst offender for last-minute proposals in previous cycles | 15:30 |
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| DinaBelova | ok, cool | 15:30 |
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| murphi | gordc: eglynn has never ever followed this unwritten rule :) | 15:30 |
| dhellmann | so you have to at least submit a patch by the proposal deadline, and it as to land by feature freeze | 15:30 |
| gordc | murphi: lol no comment. | 15:30 |
| DinaBelova | dhellmann, cool, thanks | 15:30 |
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| eglynn | dhellmann: exactly! | 15:30 |
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| dhellmann | I like having the separate earlier deadline, since it spreads out the review load and helps us focus near the end of a cycle | 15:31 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, dhellmann - just to be sure :) | 15:31 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: I missed your question | 15:31 |
| murphi | my vote is on doing this, it worth a try at least | 15:31 |
| _nadya_ | looks good... but we should grow up to follow this rule:) | 15:31 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn, np) | 15:31 |
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| DinaBelova | _nadya_, hehe :) we'll try to) | 15:31 |
| eglynn | cool sounds like a rough consensus | 15:31 |
| DinaBelova | +1 | 15:31 |
| fabiog | +1 | 15:31 |
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| eglynn | k, let's do it! | 15:32 |
| eglynn | anything else on Juno schedule? | 15:32 |
| murphi | _nadya_: we only need a kindergarden teacher, a tough one ;) | 15:32 |
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| _nadya_ | what about events? | 15:32 |
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| eglynn | _nadya_: the events API? | 15:32 |
| DinaBelova | _nadya_ - it was decided during one of the pod sessions to impl it not only for the sql - so change for the hbase looks really consistent) | 15:33 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: are we gonna proceed to support it? | 15:33 |
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| eglynn | _nadya_: I'm hoping to talk to mdragon and sandy some more about that | 15:33 |
| eglynn | _nadya_: ... I'll report back, hopefully next week | 15:33 |
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| _nadya_ | eglynn: ok, it's interesting | 15:33 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn - as far as I remember during tdaas discussion it was an idea to continue this idea | 15:34 |
| murphi | _nadya_: the plan is to keep it on board, so I'm really hoping | 15:34 |
| DinaBelova | probably in some of the etherpads we may found it | 15:34 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: yeah we're gonna need it to reconstruct the resource state timeline | 15:34 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: is there any intersections with gnocchi? | 15:34 |
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| eglynn | _nadya_: gnocchi kinda assumes the persistence of events | 15:34 |
| eglynn | _nadya_: as the resource metadata is no longer snap-shotted | 15:35 |
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| eglynn | _nadya_: (for every sample) | 15:35 |
| jd__ | clearly we need workforce in this area at some point | 15:35 |
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| jd__ | I don't think I will be able to help for this cycle | 15:35 |
| jd__ | so if nobody steps in, it will stay as it is for this cycle… | 15:35 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: ok, I just wanted to know, how much we need to rework Event model to work with gnocchi | 15:35 |
| jd__ | _nadya_: we don't | 15:36 |
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| eglynn | jd__: yep I agree, but won't hurt to reach out and explain the new relevance of events | 15:36 |
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| DinaBelova | jd__, well, during next 2-3 weeks it'll be really clear who and what will be doing | 15:36 |
| jd__ | eglynn: oh sure | 15:36 |
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| jd__ | DinaBelova: I hope so :) | 15:36 |
| DinaBelova | jd__ - after the summit there are a lot of different things to coordinate usually | 15:36 |
| DinaBelova | it'll be better soon) | 15:36 |
| DinaBelova | so possibly there will be free people for this) | 15:37 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: yep, I'll have a list of uncovered areas by next week | 15:37 |
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| eglynn | "uncovered" == "without an explicit owner who has bandwidth available" | 15:38 |
| murphi | I think that we should also keep some focus, and track the status of the other areas to still see the big picture | 15:38 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn, sure) | 15:38 |
| eglynn | better move on, time is a-ticking! | 15:39 |
| murphi | eglynn: what about moving to the next topic? | 15:39 |
| eglynn | #topic new BP review process | 15:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "new BP review process (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:39 | |
| murphi | eglynn: :) | 15:39 |
| eglynn | the telemtry-specs repo has landed :) | 15:39 |
| eglynn | *telemetry | 15:39 |
| murphi | eglynn: \o/ :) | 15:39 |
| eglynn | https://github.com/openstack/telemetry-specs | 15:39 |
| eglynn | infra guys wanted {program}-specs as opposed to {project}-specs | 15:39 |
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| eglynn | hat-tip to jd__ for cleaning up after eglynn's sloppiness | 15:40 |
| llu-laptop | eglynn: so they will rename the nova-specs? | 15:40 |
| eglynn | llu-laptop: eventually yes | 15:40 |
| jd__ | :) | 15:40 |
| eglynn | llu-laptop: long, long debate about this in the project/release status meeting on Tuesday | 15:40 |
| murphi | eglynn: until we have one repo for the specs, I do not think that the naming is that important... | 15:40 |
| eglynn | llu-laptop: ... went to a vote in the end | 15:40 |
| eglynn | murphi: the issue was where a single program maps onto multiple projects | 15:41 |
| eglynn | murphi: ... as in the tripleo case in particular | 15:41 |
| gordc | eglynn: we decide how we want to handle all existing bps? anything not started, should be rewritten for telemetry-specs? | 15:41 |
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| eglynn | gordc: my thought exactly! | 15:42 |
| DinaBelova | gordc, I really think it's a good idea! | 15:42 |
| murphi | eglynn: sure, I just wanted t say that I like Telemetry as much as Ceilometer :) | 15:42 |
| gordc | eglynn: DinaBelova: cool cool. makes sense to me. | 15:42 |
| eglynn | so quick overview of the proposed workflow ... | 15:42 |
| murphi | gordc: not started and/or not approved I guess | 15:42 |
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| DinaBelova | even more - there are some started ones (as you remember my black list :) ) - without real activity - I guess the same process might be used there | 15:42 |
| eglynn | 1. propose a detail spec first on gerrit, based on https://github.com/openstack/telemetry-specs/blob/master/specs/template.rst | 15:43 |
| DinaBelova | murphi +1 | 15:43 |
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| eglynn | 2. discussion leads to rough consensus with core team, avoid nitpicking and bikeshedding if poss ;) | 15:43 |
| llu-laptop | eglynn: should first step be register it in launchpad, for tracking? | 15:44 |
| eglynn | 3. if not pre-existing, a launchpad BP is filed by PTL with spec URL linked to telemetry-specs repo | 15:44 |
| eglynn | i.e. http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/telemetry-specs/tree/specs/juno/my-awesome-idea.rst | 15:44 |
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| eglynn | llu-laptop: well part of the idea is to stop the accumulation of unapproved/unworked-on BPs on launchpad | 15:44 |
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| _nadya_ | sounds awesome | 15:45 |
| murphi | eglynn: can LP be automatically updated from gerrit? | 15:45 |
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| eglynn | llu-laptop: ... so ttx suggest punting automatically on any *new* BP that hasn't gone thru' specs review first | 15:45 |
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| murphi | eglynn: it was just a question, I totally agree with _nadya_ :) | 15:45 |
| eglynn | murphi: yep jd__ suggested such automation on the channel earlier | 15:46 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn - i guess special job will be cool for the automatical generation of the bp | 15:46 |
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| * eglynn doesn't know enough about the LP REST API, but sounds plausible | 15:46 | |
| DinaBelova | anyway, core team will need to go and approve it | 15:46 |
| murphi | eglynn: ok, cool, I'm not the only lazy developer around :) | 15:46 |
| DinaBelova | as only you folks have rights to do it on lp) | 15:46 |
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| eglynn | DinaBelova: core team for spec review doesn't necessarily have to equate to core on core reviews | 15:47 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... we've just done it that way | 15:48 |
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| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... but nova have different teams | 15:48 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn - nah, sorry - drivers group on the lp | 15:48 |
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| eglynn | DinaBelova: nova-drivers is a rough subset of nova-core IIRC | 15:48 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, yes, for sure | 15:48 |
| DinaBelova | I simply think that if it should be done in the most useful way) if you folks think about two people, for instance, for lp housekeeping, it's ok))) | 15:49 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... we could change that if folks think its a good idea for slightly groups, but simpler I think to keep it the same | 15:49 |
| DinaBelova | if no - well, it's also ok) | 15:49 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, ++ | 15:49 |
| prad | eglynn: if we already have a bp we discussed at the summit session and started working on the implementation, we still have to refile the specs i guess? | 15:49 |
| DinaBelova | as well - we don't have so many people now) | 15:49 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: slightly groups? I mean differing groups | 15:49 |
| murphi | two people are not enough in the opensource world I think | 15:50 |
| eglynn | prad: yep | 15:50 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn - sorry, auto dictionary | 15:50 |
| DinaBelova | it was smth else | 15:50 |
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| DinaBelova | "several" i guess | 15:50 |
| DinaBelova | with typos | 15:50 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... "slightly groups" was my typo, dunno what I was thinking | 15:51 |
| eglynn | anyhoo | 15:51 |
| DinaBelova | heh, I though it was mine) | 15:51 |
| murphi | also, if we have a clear process, then the only thing to do is to follow it and I think the specs repo is a really good start in that way | 15:51 |
| eglynn | one last point as discussed with jd__ earlier on the channel | 15:51 |
| eglynn | ... let's not make this into the governance repo | 15:51 |
| eglynn | ... i.e. lots of nitpicking on language, word-smithing etc. | 15:52 |
| llu-laptop | eglynn: agreed, as a non-native speaker | 15:52 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn - I guess typos fixing will be the only thing there | 15:52 |
| eglynn | ... so in general I'd like to see spelling errors etc. not be a -1 issue in specs reviews, unless it really obscures the meaning | 15:52 |
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| eglynn | ... let's just concentrate on the idea/concept/design etc. | 15:53 |
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| gordc | eglynn: +1 | 15:53 |
| fabiog | eglynn +1, we can just review with 0 and comment where the typo/fixes should be | 15:53 |
| cdent | you happy for corrections alongside +1 reviews? | 15:53 |
| murphi | eglynn: I agree, the only case when the language can be commented, if that sentence/paragraph is not understandable | 15:53 |
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| eglynn | cdent, fabiog: yep absolutely to both | 15:54 |
| eglynn | murphi: agree when the meaning is really obscured | 15:54 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, fabiog well - I possibly it might be a good idea to add new patch set with typos fixing by the reviewer - without any additional meaning, etc... | 15:54 |
| DinaBelova | as this it minor thing | 15:54 |
| DinaBelova | but possibly needed to be fixed | 15:54 |
| * eglynn can't spell, or puncuate, so has a vested interest ;) | 15:54 | |
| DinaBelova | eglynn - as ironic folks do sometimes) | 15:54 |
| murphi | eglynn: if the spell checking gate job will work out, than no more typo problems ;) | 15:54 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: agree, if a new patchset is gonna be needed anyway fix, otherwise not a blocker | 15:55 |
| prad | eglynn: is there a dependency on getting the spec approved before pushing code for review? as in if i already have some code i want to start getting eyes on? | 15:55 |
| eglynn | prad: WIP patches *always* welcome | 15:55 |
| prad | cool | 15:55 |
| eglynn | prad: in fact a really good practice to get early eyes if poss ... IMO | 15:55 |
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| murphi | prad: I think it would not worth pushing 1000 lines of code before getting approval for the base idea | 15:55 |
| prad | eglynn: agreed | 15:55 |
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| eglynn | up against the shot here, better move on | 15:55 |
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| eglynn | #topic coresec cleanup | 15:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "coresec cleanup (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:56 | |
| eglynn | anyone object to me cleaning up ... https://launchpad.net/~ceilometer-coresec/+members#active | 15:56 |
| prad | murphi: hehe sure, i meant ideas we already discussed at the summit sessions and got some nods | 15:56 |
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| murphi | prad, but if you have something that already works or the base idea is not something you expect to be rejected, then go for a WIP patch | 15:56 |
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| eglynn | a few old names there | 15:56 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, heh) | 15:56 |
| murphi | prad: a-ha, ok I thought you aks it in general, that one should be ok | 15:57 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn you need to be admin here too)) | 15:57 |
| gordc | interesting... jd__ already called for my removal earlier.. :) | 15:57 |
| eglynn | core-coresec should equate to ceilo-core? | 15:57 |
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| llu-laptop | eglynn: oops, never be aware of this group | 15:57 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn - well - it's usually so if core-team is all active enough | 15:57 |
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| _nadya_ | llu-laptop: +1 | 15:57 |
| DinaBelova | if no there are two variants | 15:57 |
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| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... k, lets go with that so | 15:57 |
| murphi | llu-laptop: +1 | 15:58 |
| DinaBelova | 1/ remove inactive people from the core-reviewers | 15:58 |
| eglynn | llu-laptop: ... for interaction with the vulnerability mgmt ninjas | 15:58 |
| DinaBelova | 2/ remove them at least from the lp | 15:58 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn - both variants are popular afair :) | 15:58 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: cool | 15:59 |
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| eglynn | one minute left | 15:59 |
| eglynn | #topic tempest | 15:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "tempest (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:59 | |
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| eglynn | _nadya_: any news? | 15:59 |
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| _nadya_ | no major updates, only summit-news | 15:59 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, _nadya_ - as I remember we still have pack of good changes and we're blocked) | 15:59 |
| DinaBelova | we'll see what we'll be sooner | 16:00 |
| DinaBelova | working sql | 16:00 |
| DinaBelova | or new nodes) | 16:00 |
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| _nadya_ | gordc: one quick question | 16:00 |
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| gordc | DinaBelova: _nadya_: give https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94483/ a try... it should help | 16:00 |
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| DinaBelova | gordc - for sure! | 16:00 |
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| _nadya_ | gordc: ok, so we need several collectors, right? | 16:00 |
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| gordc | _nadya_: for sql probably. haven't verified how much faster it is yet. | 16:01 |
| _nadya_ | gordc: in this case we need to change default parameter on gating | 16:01 |
| DinaBelova | _nadya_, gordc - I may try to test it using tempest ;-\ | 16:01 |
| gordc | _nadya_: want to continue conversation in openstack-ceilometer? | 16:01 |
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| DinaBelova | this change | 16:01 |
| gordc | out of time here. | 16:01 |
| DinaBelova | yes, let's finish | 16:01 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn? | 16:01 |
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| _nadya_ | gordc: I will ping you | 16:02 |
| eglynn | yep we're outta time | 16:02 |
| eglynn | let's continue on the channel | 16:02 |
| eglynn | thanks as always for a very productive meeting | 16:02 |
| eglynn | #endmeeting ceilometer | 16:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 22 16:02:37 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-05-22-15.00.html | 16:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-05-22-15.00.txt | 16:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-05-22-15.00.log.html | 16:02 |
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| mtreinish | #startmeeting qa | 17:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 22 17:01:49 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mtreinish. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'qa' | 17:01 |
| mtreinish | hi, who's here today? | 17:02 |
| mkoderer | Hi | 17:02 |
| giulivo | hi | 17:02 |
| andreaf | hi | 17:02 |
| ylobankov | hi | 17:02 |
| mtreinish | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/QATeamMeeting#Proposed_Agenda_for_May_22_2014_.281700_UTC.29 | 17:02 |
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| mtreinish | ^^^ Today's agenda | 17:02 |
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| mtreinish | it's a pretty light one this week | 17:02 |
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| mtreinish | ok, lets get started | 17:03 |
| mtreinish | #topic Blueprint Purge (mtreinish) | 17:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprint Purge (mtreinish) (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:04 | |
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| mtreinish | So I put this on the agenda just to let everyone know that after next weeks meeting I'm going to purge the bps without a spec at least proposed | 17:04 |
| mtreinish | I'm going to send a note to the list too | 17:04 |
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| mkoderer | all right.. I need to write some spec's then | 17:05 |
| mtreinish | but we've got a lot of bps listed on lp but very few specs proposed right now | 17:05 |
| mkoderer | ;) | 17:05 |
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| mtreinish | mkoderer: do you have a bp without a spec? | 17:05 |
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| mkoderer | mtreinish: dkranz has one about porting negative tests | 17:05 |
| rockyg | specs are not code, so they're hard for developers ;-) | 17:05 |
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| mkoderer | I will add some specs next week | 17:06 |
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| mtreinish | rockyg: it's more about cleaning up dead bps from the list | 17:06 |
| andreaf | mtreinish: for the purge do you care about the status of the bp in lp as well, or the spec only? | 17:06 |
| mtreinish | it's just a filter, there is nothing stopping someone from coming back and restoring it with a spec later | 17:06 |
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| rockyg | Agreed. I've got a BP that I'll abandon, even thought it's really needed. The docs. I can write the spec if you ever think someone will pick it up. | 17:07 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: it's everything that currently with an undefined priority | 17:07 |
| mtreinish | without a spec in review | 17:07 |
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| mtreinish | andreaf: I think all of yours have specs already :) | 17:07 |
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| mtreinish | #action mtreinish to send a email to list about bp cleanup | 17:08 |
| mtreinish | ok does anyone have anything else they'd like to talk about on this topic? | 17:09 |
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| mtreinish | ok, then let's move on to the next topic | 17:09 |
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| mtreinish | #topic Specs Review | 17:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs Review (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:10 | |
| mtreinish | does anyone have an open specs reviews they'd like to bring up | 17:10 |
| mtreinish | or to discuss in more depth | 17:10 |
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| andreaf | mtreinish: #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94741/ | 17:10 |
| andreaf | mtreinish: not to discuss I think, it just needs review | 17:11 |
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| andreaf | mtreinish: it's the ssh-auth-strategy afazekas has been working on | 17:11 |
| mkoderer | andreaf: I promise to do it tomorrow :) | 17:11 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: ok, cool thanks. I'll try to take a look at it soon. | 17:12 |
| andreaf | mkoderer: thanks | 17:12 |
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| andreaf | mtreinish: also #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92804/ | 17:12 |
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| andreaf | client manager refactor | 17:12 |
| mtreinish | but I've been reluctant to review ones without a +2 already, because I have to look at every spec to +A it... | 17:12 |
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| andreaf | I'd love to get any kind of feedback on this one to see if there is interest in it | 17:13 |
| andreaf | mtreinish: fair enough | 17:13 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: that one looks like it will have a lot of review overhead (when/if you implement it) | 17:14 |
| mtreinish | another giant patch series :) | 17:14 |
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| mtreinish | the question I think is are the benefits worth the overhead | 17:14 |
| andreaf | the overhead of coding time you mean? | 17:15 |
| mtreinish | and review time | 17:15 |
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| andreaf | I think this may help a lot with micro version in nova | 17:16 |
| mtreinish | the coding should be pretty simple once you do the initial refactor. It's more taking the time for everyone to look at it. | 17:16 |
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| mtreinish | andreaf: you should explicitly outline the benefits of having the refactor done then | 17:16 |
| andreaf | the current approach is not very scalable you get one new attribute for every new combination of api / version | 17:16 |
| andreaf | quote: "Another issue with the current structure is that new API versions lead to | 17:17 |
| andreaf | proliferation of client attributes in the client manager classes." | 17:17 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: fair enough, I think on something like this the why is more important than the what | 17:17 |
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| andreaf | mtreinish: ok thanks I'll try to get more detail on the why | 17:18 |
| mtreinish | ok cool | 17:18 |
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| mtreinish | does anyone else have any specs reviews to bring up? | 17:18 |
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| mtreinish | ok then let's move on | 17:19 |
| mtreinish | #topic Blueprints | 17:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:19 | |
| mtreinish | does anyone have any in progress bps that they'd like to discuss | 17:19 |
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| andreaf | mtreinish: on the ssh-auth-strategy, NithyaG has been working on it (she could not attend today) | 17:20 |
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| sdague | we did find the first actual instance of needing the next level of feature grid earlier this week (re: branchless tempest) | 17:20 |
| mtreinish | sdague: cool | 17:21 |
| sdague | turns out grenade config was wrong and let a break slip through. I'm going to circle around on that once I get grenade enforcing resources spanning the gap from old to new | 17:21 |
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| sdague | which apparently we lost at some point | 17:21 |
| mtreinish | oh that was the keystone cert test thing right? | 17:21 |
| sdague | yep | 17:21 |
| sdague | we just reverted it | 17:21 |
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| sdague | and the grenade config fix looks right now, as the revert^2 now fails | 17:22 |
| mtreinish | I thought that there was something else that someone brought up at summit too | 17:22 |
| sdague | there is also some ipv6 neutron bits that need it | 17:22 |
| mtreinish | this will be a good first test of the process | 17:22 |
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| sdague | but I think that's slightly more complex | 17:22 |
| sdague | I'm going to get together with sc68cal next friday and figure out some of that | 17:23 |
| mtreinish | ok, yeah I imagine ipv6 makes things more complex :) | 17:23 |
| sdague | so I'll tenatively say 3 - 4 weeks hopefully to get that all landed | 17:23 |
| * sdague done on branchless tempest updates | 17:24 | |
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| andreaf | mtreinish: re ssh-auth-strategy, the server rebuild test is failing when ssh check is enabled, but only when it's run in combination with other tests | 17:24 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: ok cool | 17:24 |
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| andreaf | mtreinish: NithyaG is working on it | 17:24 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: is there something outside a tenant scope being used there? | 17:25 |
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| andreaf | there is a single server reused by all tests in the class | 17:25 |
| mtreinish | yeah that always causes problems... | 17:26 |
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| afazekas | mtreinish: but we want to catch those, and test | 17:26 |
| andreaf | e.g. reboot test waits for VM to go to ACTIVE, and then rebuild kicks in | 17:26 |
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| sdague | andreaf: is it only those classes that reuse servers a ton where this breaks? | 17:27 |
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| sdague | because if so, we could annotate them to not do it and get the other 150 servers | 17:27 |
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| andreaf | sdague: atm it's only that class with ssh enabled | 17:27 |
| sdague | ok | 17:27 |
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| mtreinish | afazekas: honestly I feel like that workflow is more for scenario tests | 17:28 |
| andreaf | sdague: creating a new server may be an option but I'd like to understand my it breajs | 17:28 |
| sdague | so, honestly, I'd like to include sshing into every server as part of the validation of compute creation | 17:28 |
| mtreinish | these reuse classes always have problems because of leftover state in the api tests | 17:28 |
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| sdague | mtreinish: agreed | 17:28 |
| andreaf | mtreinish, afazekas, sdague: some API tests cannot test much without ssh | 17:29 |
| sdague | how much time hit will we take on getting read of them | 17:29 |
| * mtreinish watches run time skyrocket with ssh everywhere | 17:29 | |
| andreaf | for instance attaching a config drive | 17:29 |
| sdague | andreaf: agreed | 17:29 |
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| afazekas | sdague: It would increase the test time, unless we increase the number of subunit process | 17:29 |
| sdague | afazekas: by how much? | 17:29 |
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| andreaf | I think if we start by getting the existing ssh working it's a first good step | 17:30 |
| afazekas | sdague: good question, butwe have two worker at the moment it is too few | 17:30 |
| sdague | andreaf: I think we're on the same page. I honestly want create_server(wait='ACTIVE') to actually not only wait for active, but also make sure the guest is sshable | 17:30 |
| andreaf | than we can see what's the impact of getting more ssh tests in | 17:30 |
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| sdague | andreaf: sure, I just wonder if we'll find it easier to debug when things go wrong if we make it a base validation case for every server create | 17:31 |
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| andreaf | sdague: sure that would help | 17:31 |
| sdague | afazekas: we're mostly 4 workers now, all our nodes are going to 8 core | 17:31 |
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| afazekas | sdague: :) | 17:32 |
| andreaf | sdague: also getting things like console log printed in case of error and other debugging may help | 17:32 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: we can do that now though through the api we don't need ssh to do that | 17:32 |
| sdague | andreaf: yep. I think this would help even in getting ssh to work in the tricky cases though. So could be an immediate patch | 17:32 |
| mtreinish | the heat tests do that already | 17:32 |
| andreaf | sdague: on the same like of wait for active you could say for attaching a volume that you need to ssh and fdisk to confirm | 17:33 |
| afazekas | sdague, andreaf: What is your onion about making the current debug strategy more intelligent ? | 17:33 |
| sdague | afazekas: I'm for it, especially a plugable way to go collect that, but we need to talk it through. Can you propose a qa-spec on it? | 17:34 |
| afazekas | Now it just prints everything, for a human takes a long time to understand the log | 17:34 |
| afazekas | sdague: yes | 17:34 |
| andreaf | afazekas, sdague: are these the debug options from the conf? | 17:34 |
| afazekas | sdague: Do we want to support multnode , other things than neutron ml2 ovs ? | 17:34 |
| afazekas | andreaf: yes | 17:35 |
| sdague | andreaf: yeh. | 17:35 |
| sdague | I think we've gotten pretty far from the blueprints at hand though | 17:35 |
| sdague | afazekas: can you please write down some of the ideas about enhancing debug in a spec? | 17:35 |
| afazekas | sdague: ok | 17:36 |
| andreaf | I would keep the scope of the ssh-auth-strategy bp fixed now, and handle other improvements in separate specs | 17:36 |
| sdague | andreaf: ok, that's fair | 17:36 |
| sdague | andreaf: I'll try to review it today | 17:36 |
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| andreaf | sdague: thanks | 17:36 |
| andreaf | we have a lot of ideas again for the todo.rst | 17:37 |
| andreaf | ^_^ | 17:37 |
| mtreinish | oh, thanks for the reminder Ive got to add that soon... | 17:37 |
| mtreinish | ok does anyone have any other bps to discuss | 17:38 |
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| sdague | not i | 17:38 |
| mtreinish | ok then let's move on | 17:38 |
| mtreinish | #topic Neutron testing | 17:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Neutron testing (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:39 | |
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| mtreinish | mlavalle: are you around? | 17:39 |
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| mlavalle | mtreinish: Yes | 17:39 |
| mtreinish | any update on neutron testing? | 17:39 |
| mlavalle | mtreinish: since our last meting, we have merged another 5 api tests | 17:39 |
| mlavalle | so of the original 28 we were tracking, we have merged 25 | 17:39 |
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| mtreinish | cool | 17:40 |
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| mlavalle | I have added a couple of tests for ipv6, so we have another 5 to go | 17:40 |
| mlavalle | but the progress keeps steady | 17:40 |
| mlavalle | I have a couple of questions | 17:40 |
| afazekas | I have question related to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/83627/ 'I still have a question, does your work cooperate with Mh Raies as you have the same changes with him https://review.openstack.org/#/c/47816/25/tempest/api/network/base.py and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/47816/25/tempest/services/network/network_client_base.py ?' | 17:41 |
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| mlavalle | for the scenario test tutorial / dcoumentation I am assuming you want me to add to http://docs.openstack.org/developer/tempest/field_guide/scenario.html, corrrect? | 17:41 |
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| mtreinish | mlavalle: maybe, it might warrant another section | 17:42 |
| mtreinish | but we can always move things around later | 17:42 |
| mlavalle | afazekas: yeah, i need to follow up with him and coordinate the patchsets | 17:42 |
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| mlavalle | mtreinish: how do I get to edit that? does anyone has to give access? | 17:42 |
| mtreinish | mlavalle: it gets auto published by the readme.rst in tempest/scenario | 17:43 |
| mlavalle | ah, ok | 17:43 |
| mlavalle | will work on that | 17:43 |
| mlavalle | mtreainish: second question: where do you want me to document the new Neutron scenario tests blueprints? | 17:43 |
| mtreinish | mlavalle: for tracking progress | 17:44 |
| mtreinish | like what you did with an etherpad for the api tests | 17:44 |
| mtreinish | or just in general? | 17:44 |
| mlavalle | previous cycle we were using https://blueprints.launchpad.net/tempest/+spec/neutron-advanced-scenarios | 17:44 |
| mtreinish | oh, you just mean having a bp | 17:45 |
| mlavalle | I can use an etherpad, though. I know how to do it :-) | 17:45 |
| mtreinish | yeah I'd throw up a quick spec to qa-specs outlining the total scope of goals for the work | 17:45 |
| mtreinish | and link to an etherpad or something else | 17:45 |
| mtreinish | to track the progress more granuarly | 17:45 |
| mlavalle | cool, i'll start it this coming long weekend | 17:45 |
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| mlavalle | that's all I have | 17:46 |
| mtreinish | the spec doesn't have to be too involved this one is pretty self explanatory | 17:46 |
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| mlavalle | ok | 17:46 |
| mtreinish | ok does anyone else have anything to discuss on neutron testing? | 17:46 |
| mlavalle | can I get a core review for this https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92436 | 17:47 |
| mlavalle | ? | 17:47 |
| mtreinish | mlavalle: sure | 17:47 |
| mtreinish | ok, then let's move on to the next topic | 17:47 |
| mtreinish | #topic Heat testing | 17:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Heat testing (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:48 | |
| sdague | I'm not sure we have a rep for this today | 17:48 |
| mtreinish | sdague: you were the one who made this a sticky agenda item so I'm looking to you... | 17:48 |
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| sdague | I've not been poking it, as I need to dive down the grenade hole | 17:48 |
| sdague | so I'd say we pull it off standing agenda for now | 17:48 |
| andreaf | just one not | 17:49 |
| andreaf | note | 17:49 |
| andreaf | the non-voting slow heat tests were failing because of a change in python-novaclient, which is now fixed in heat | 17:49 |
| sdague | andreaf: ok, that's not the only fail reason | 17:49 |
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| sdague | we were having boot stability issues with the fedora image as well, which I don't think are resolved yet | 17:50 |
| andreaf | sdague: probably at least that one cause consistent failure :) | 17:50 |
| sdague | there is a patch series up that brings in disk image builder | 17:50 |
| sdague | to maybe get around that | 17:50 |
| sdague | but it's going to be a bit, because we need to start also running tempest on dib then | 17:51 |
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| mtreinish | ok well let's move on to critical reviews because we're <10 min left | 17:52 |
| mtreinish | #topic Critical Reviews | 17:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Critical Reviews (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:52 | |
| sdague | one last thing, tempest release? | 17:52 |
| mtreinish | sdague: oh | 17:52 |
| mtreinish | yeah I'll do that today | 17:52 |
| sdague | I think we committed to making one at summit | 17:52 |
| sdague | ok, cool. | 17:52 |
| sdague | naming conventions? | 17:52 |
| mtreinish | I'll pick a sha1 before andreaf's refactor I think | 17:52 |
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| mtreinish | 2014.1 ? | 17:52 |
| sdague | so we'll have a 2014.2 which in no way relates to OS 2014.2? | 17:53 |
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| sdague | that's part of my concern on that naming convention, because we said 4 times a year | 17:53 |
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| mtreinish | how do the clients do it? | 17:54 |
| mtreinish | we could just do the same | 17:54 |
| mtreinish | oh maybe 1.0 | 17:54 |
| mtreinish | for 2014 | 17:54 |
| mtreinish | and increment the minor for each release | 17:55 |
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| mtreinish | nah that won't work the major version should mean something other than chronology | 17:55 |
| sdague | we can figure that offline | 17:55 |
| mtreinish | yeah | 17:55 |
| mtreinish | ok does anyone have any reviews to bring up? | 17:56 |
| afazekas | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94203/ | 17:56 |
| mtreinish | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94203/ | 17:57 |
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| mtreinish | afazekas: ok I'll take a look soon | 17:57 |
| mtreinish | are there any other reviews? | 17:57 |
| ylobankov | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/93301/ | 17:58 |
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| mtreinish | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/93301/ | 17:58 |
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| mtreinish | ok well with 2 mins let's go to the last topic :) | 17:58 |
| mtreinish | #topic Summit follow-up (andreaf) | 17:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Summit follow-up (andreaf) (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:58 | |
| mtreinish | andreaf: we can start off next weeks with this if you'd prefer | 17:59 |
| andreaf | I just wanted to ask if have a place to track any action / follow-up from the summit | 17:59 |
| andreaf | other than the etherpads which is not very consolidated | 17:59 |
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| mtreinish | no the etherpads were about it | 18:00 |
| andreaf | things like releases, the todo.rst, the specs we need to create (tempest as a service) and so | 18:00 |
| sdague | andreaf: honestly, I'd suggest building a summary etherpad that we can work through | 18:00 |
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| sdague | I was going to do that personally for all the things I committed to (have been doing it locally, but only about 25% of the way through collecting it) | 18:00 |
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| hyakuhei | I'll give you guys a second or two to wrap up before we start the OSSG meeting :) | 18:01 |
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| mtreinish | ok well we're at time | 18:01 |
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| mtreinish | andreaf: we can follow up on -qa | 18:01 |
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| andreaf | ok | 18:01 |
| mtreinish | #endmeeting | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 22 18:01:26 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:01 |
| mtreinish | thanks everyone | 18:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-05-22-17.01.html | 18:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-05-22-17.01.txt | 18:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-05-22-17.01.log.html | 18:01 |
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| hyakuhei | Thanks guys :) | 18:01 |
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| hyakuhei | #startmeeting OpenStack Security Group | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 22 18:01:47 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hyakuhei. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group' | 18:01 |
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| bknudson | hi | 18:02 |
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| hyakuhei | Hi bknudson | 18:02 |
| tmcpeak | how it goes? | 18:02 |
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| hyakuhei | Lets go ahead and do a roll-call to get us started | 18:02 |
| nkinder | o/ | 18:02 |
| * hyakuhei is Rob from HP | 18:02 | |
| hyakuhei | Hey nkinder | 18:02 |
| paulmo | Hey all | 18:03 |
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| hyakuhei | tmcpeak: welcome. | 18:03 |
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| tmcpeak | thank you! | 18:03 |
| * tmcpeak is Travis McPeak from Symantec | 18:03 | |
| nkinder | tmcpeak: hey Travis! | 18:03 |
| bknudson | bknudson is Brant Knudson from IBM | 18:03 |
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| hyakuhei | Ok, so, agenda items for today? | 18:03 |
| tmcpeak | hey Nathan, how it goes? | 18:04 |
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| nkinder | tmcpeak: slowly digging myself out of post-summit backlog :) | 18:04 |
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| hyakuhei | Hah, I know that feeling ^ | 18:04 |
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| bknudson | there was a post to mailing list about meeting w/ barbican / keystone at hackerdom | 18:04 |
| hyakuhei | So I've got a bunch of stuff to discuss, including the OSSG meetup :) | 18:04 |
| bknudson | that would potentially include ossg | 18:04 |
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| hyakuhei | Lets make than an agenda item | 18:05 |
| hyakuhei | So I'd like to talk about: | 18:05 |
| hyakuhei | OSSG Meetup | 18:05 |
| hyakuhei | Tasks from the last summit | 18:05 |
| hyakuhei | The possibility of expanding our scope | 18:05 |
| hyakuhei | OSSG Core Reviewers for _other_ projects | 18:05 |
| hyakuhei | A few other little bits | 18:05 |
| hyakuhei | bknudson: Do you have anything to bring up around TA? | 18:06 |
| nkinder | sounds like a full agenda | 18:06 |
| bknudson | hyakuhei: no, still recovering from summit | 18:06 |
| hyakuhei | Yea, so we can breeze through it but you've prompted me to add one more nkinder | 18:06 |
| hyakuhei | Potentially expanding the meeting | 18:06 |
| hyakuhei | Ok. | 18:06 |
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| hyakuhei | #topic OSSG Meetup | 18:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OSSG Meetup (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:06 | |
| malini1 | Greetings | 18:07 |
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| hyakuhei | At the summit I floated the idea of the OSSG piggy-backing off the Barbican mid-cycle meetup | 18:07 |
| hyakuhei | It would be a good opportunity to partake in Barbican design sessions as well as work on small sprints for TA, the book and other projects | 18:07 |
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| tmcpeak | sounds like a good idea | 18:07 |
| hyakuhei | Barbican liked the idea, turns out they are piggybacking off Keystone as well, so all the security/IAM/key mgmt people will be in the same place. That seems like a good thing | 18:08 |
| hyakuhei | Ok, theres' more info on the ML if people are interested | 18:08 |
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| malini1 | where will the meeting be? | 18:08 |
| nkinder | San Antonio | 18:08 |
| nkinder | TX | 18:08 |
| Priti | Hi Team, this is Priti from Symantec, joining IRC for the first time, looking forward to be working with you | 18:08 |
| hyakuhei | Geekdom in San Antonio | 18:08 |
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| hyakuhei | Priti: Welcome :) | 18:09 |
| nkinder | Hi Priti | 18:09 |
| malini1 | welcome Priti | 18:09 |
| Priti | Thank you !!! | 18:09 |
| hyakuhei | Ok, lots to get through so I'll move onto the next point, very excited about this though, there's an interesting opportunity to get a lot done. | 18:09 |
| nkinder | I can't make the proposed week for the hackfest, but I can make the week after. I've let the Keystone and Barbican devs know just in case they are OK switching it. | 18:09 |
| hyakuhei | #topic OSSG Tasks | 18:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OSSG Tasks (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:10 | |
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| hyakuhei | The summit was great, it's taken a long time but we have the legitimacy we've been seeking. It was the first summit where we had lots of developers coming to us for help | 18:10 |
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| hyakuhei | There's been suggestions for adding gate jobs, code scanning etc coming from the outside for once | 18:11 |
| hyakuhei | Now most of you know we have lots going on but three 'main' projects, TA, OSSN and the Guide | 18:11 |
| tmcpeak | what's TA? | 18:12 |
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| nkinder | threat analysis | 18:12 |
| tmcpeak | ahh | 18:12 |
| hyakuhei | Each with their own leadership. My question for you all to ponder (email to follow) is if any of you have the time and inclination to step up and take one of our smaller projects (security guidelines, vulnerability feeds etc) and drive it to be another 'big' project | 18:12 |
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| hyakuhei | Again, I'll followup by email. | 18:12 |
| hyakuhei | Mainly I'm excited about how much traction we got at this summit and how many people were talking about security in general | 18:12 |
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| nkinder | tmcpeak is getting involved with the security/crypto audit | 18:12 |
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| nkinder | ...starting with glance | 18:13 |
| hyakuhei | nkinder: that's great! | 18:13 |
| tmcpeak | yep! I'm excited :) | 18:13 |
| hyakuhei | thanks tmcpeak | 18:13 |
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| tmcpeak | thank you | 18:13 |
| paulmo | nkinder, professional security recruiter :) | 18:13 |
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| hyakuhei | Let me know how that goes and what help is required from the OSSG to make it easier :) | 18:13 |
| hyakuhei | #topic VMT Metrics | 18:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "VMT Metrics (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:14 | |
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| hyakuhei | We've been asked to help the VMT come up with a sensible set of metrics for demonstrating the impact of a vulnerability in OpenStack | 18:14 |
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| tmcpeak | what's VMT? | 18:14 |
| hyakuhei | Around Essex they stopped mentioning impact in OSSAs at all | 18:14 |
| hyakuhei | Vulnerability Management Team | 18:14 |
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| tmcpeak | ahh ok | 18:14 |
| hyakuhei | They're like a CERT for OpenStack, receiving and triaging bugs | 18:15 |
| tmcpeak | cool, thank you | 18:15 |
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| hyakuhei | So if anyone has a favorite vulnerabilty impact rating system (no points for CVSSv2) that doesn't fall on it's ass when applied to virtualized environments, please let me know! | 18:15 |
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| hyakuhei | #Topic Low hanging fruit | 18:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Low hanging fruit (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:16 | |
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| paulmo | OWASP might be an interesting rating system to look at: https://www.owasp.org/index.php/OWASP_Risk_Rating_Methodology | 18:16 |
| hyakuhei | TY paulmo | 18:16 |
| hyakuhei | What basic checks, greps, investigations can we perform to find errors in OpenStack? | 18:17 |
| hyakuhei | I know chair6 has been looking at some interesting stuff using the Python AST library | 18:17 |
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| paulmo | … as part of the gate or standalone tools or both? | 18:17 |
| hyakuhei | Grepping for 'cPickle' and 'shell=True' comes to mind | 18:17 |
| hyakuhei | Both | 18:17 |
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| bknudson | we could look for calls to eval | 18:18 |
| hyakuhei | OpenStack is so immature I'm willing to bet there's a good effort:reward ratio right now for even basic checks | 18:18 |
| paulmo | Look for imports of risky crypto libraries perhaps | 18:18 |
| tmcpeak | on that line, I'm working on a little script to automate imports and crypto calls in Python code | 18:18 |
| hyakuhei | Ok, so I'd like it if someone took an action to collect these suggestions on the wiki and badger people on the ML for more content | 18:18 |
| nkinder | paulmo: tmcpeak has started working on a crypto search tool to help with the audit effort | 18:18 |
| tmcpeak | basically a glorified grep against a dictionary file | 18:18 |
| hyakuhei | tmcpeak: That sounds incredibly useful. | 18:19 |
| tmcpeak | ^ what nkinder said :) | 18:19 |
| paulmo | +1 tmcpeak! | 18:19 |
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| hyakuhei | Ok, so does anyone want to volunteer for this? | 18:19 |
| tmcpeak | very basic but it's here in case anybody wants to take a look at it | 18:19 |
| tmcpeak | https://github.com/tmcpeak/cryptoAuditor | 18:19 |
| hyakuhei | or should we assign it to bdpayne because he's not here ? :D | 18:19 |
| tmcpeak | I'd love feedback/suggestions | 18:19 |
| hyakuhei | #link https://github.com/tmcpeak/cryptoAuditor Comments and suggestions welcome | 18:20 |
| malini1 | i volunteer | 18:20 |
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| hyakuhei | Awesome! Thanks malini1 | 18:20 |
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| hyakuhei | #action malini1 To document the various things we can identify in OpenStack code that could have security impact using only basic tooling. To compile a simle list on the wiki and encourage contributions from other members | 18:21 |
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| hyakuhei | #topic Developer Security Guidelines | 18:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Developer Security Guidelines (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:21 | |
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| hyakuhei | The security guidelines really need to be completed so we can use them | 18:22 |
| hyakuhei | Core dev's have also asked for a top-10 style checklist they can keep in mind when reviewing commits. | 18:22 |
| nkinder | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Security/Guidelines | 18:22 |
| paulmo | Does everyone in OSSG agree with the high level list? (if this is the one I'm thinking of) | 18:22 |
| hyakuhei | paulmo: For the most part yes :) | 18:23 |
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| paulmo | If we can get consensus in OSSG with the list, then the drilldown pages can be filled in relatively quickly I bet | 18:23 |
| hyakuhei | I'd like to split out design decisions from implementation ones but largely it's good | 18:23 |
| paulmo | Let's remove or mark any contentious items then | 18:23 |
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| hyakuhei | It's been outstanding for a while, maybe it'd be better done in a sprint | 18:23 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: yes, a sprint might work well for it | 18:24 |
| hyakuhei | #Topic AOB | 18:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "AOB (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:24 | |
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| tmcpeak | sorry, but what's AOB? | 18:24 |
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| hyakuhei | Any other business :) | 18:24 |
| tmcpeak | ahh :) | 18:24 |
| nkinder | malini1 is close to wrapping the one outstanding OSSN | 18:25 |
| hyakuhei | OSSG meeting length :: Does anyone want to extend the meeting? | 18:25 |
| hyakuhei | yes! excellent work malini1 ! _Not_ an easy one to write up! | 18:25 |
| hyakuhei | The process put in place by nkinder is paying dividends in this case | 18:25 |
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| paulmo | One item on logging… what is the general consensus of this group about asking developers to mark confidential data up front in the code to prevent admins from trying to filter out passwords and such on the backend log databases and such? | 18:26 |
| nkinder | malini1: just a few more minor suggestions in there, then it's ready IMHO | 18:26 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: extending the meeting to 1h would be useful I think | 18:26 |
| malini1 | malini1 -- :-( major goof up on that OSSN .. hopefully I improve on next one | 18:26 |
| hyakuhei | paulmo: The earlier confidential data can be identified the better imho | 18:27 |
| paulmo | (sorry, to prevent admins from having to continuously hunt down log data that shouldn't be in plain text or logged at all) | 18:27 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: we would then have time to hash out things like the security guidelines right here | 18:27 |
| hyakuhei | It then becomes a matter of policy | 18:27 |
| hyakuhei | nkinder: +1 | 18:27 |
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| hyakuhei | It does mean that's an 8pm finish for me (worlds smallest violin) | 18:27 |
| bknudson | paulmo: if the logs contain passwords / auth tokens somebody here will likely open a bug and we'll have to fix it | 18:28 |
| paulmo | We created a class in Solum to identify confidentiality of pieces of log information… perhaps this group could look at it and give input. | 18:28 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: we can find a different timeslot too | 18:28 |
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| paulmo | It ties into oslo log and everything. | 18:28 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: oh, one other topic that was brought up at the summit was creating our own IRC channel | 18:28 |
| hyakuhei | True, there are more official meeting channels now so that could work | 18:28 |
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| hyakuhei | nkinder: Yes - I have no opposition to trying that | 18:28 |
| hyakuhei | Thoughts @all? | 18:29 |
| malini1 | +1 to move timeslot to make it convenient | 18:29 |
| tmcpeak | yeah, why not? | 18:29 |
| hyakuhei | #action hyakuhei to look at moving to a 1 hour meeting and finding a better meeting slot | 18:29 |
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| tmcpeak | I like the own IRC channel idea too | 18:30 |
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| malini1 | i like the 30 min but 1 hr is fine with out-of-school if we have less any day | 18:30 |
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| paulmo | #ossg is available :) | 18:30 |
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| nkinder | paulmo: I think we should prefix it with "openstack-" to be in line with the other channels | 18:30 |
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| paulmo | Ah, not sure about policy… whatever is fine with me :) | 18:31 |
| hyakuhei | Ok I'll follow up on the ML regarding an IRC channel I guess. | 18:31 |
| hyakuhei | That's time people - any last minute emergencies to bring up? | 18:31 |
| paulmo | I'm hanging in #openstack-ossg just in case | 18:31 |
| bknudson | thanks! | 18:31 |
| hyakuhei | Thanks everyone! | 18:31 |
| hyakuhei | #endmeeting | 18:31 |
| tmcpeak | good stuff! | 18:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:31 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 22 18:31:47 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:31 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-05-22-18.01.html | 18:31 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-05-22-18.01.txt | 18:31 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-05-22-18.01.log.html | 18:31 |
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| hyakuhei | bknudson: Lets go for openstack-security instead | 18:32 |
| nkinder | thanks all! | 18:32 |
| bknudson | openstack-security works for me | 18:32 |
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| nkinder | bknudson: yep, I'm in there and it's empty | 18:33 |
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| mriedem | mikal: ? | 21:01 |
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| mikal | Hello | 21:02 |
| mikal | Just getting my coffee | 21:02 |
| mikal | #startmeeting nova | 21:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 22 21:02:24 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mikal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova' | 21:02 |
| mikal | Who is here for the nova meeting? | 21:02 |
| dansmith | o/ | 21:02 |
| mriedem | hi | 21:02 |
| leifz | o/ | 21:02 |
| tjones | hi | 21:02 |
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| alaski | hi | 21:02 |
| yjiang5 | o/ | 21:02 |
| mikal | Cool | 21:03 |
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| mikal | #topic IRC nick ping service | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "IRC nick ping service (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:03 | |
| mikal | So, first off a quick announcement | 21:03 |
| mikal | Stealing an idea from Keystone, if you add your IRC nick to the list on https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova | 21:03 |
| cburgess | present | 21:03 |
| mikal | Then I will ping that list at the start of meetings | 21:03 |
| mikal | Which might help people remember to appear here | 21:03 |
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| mikal | I wont bother this week because I'd just be pinging myself... | 21:04 |
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| mikal | Ok, moving on | 21:04 |
| mikal | #topic Juno mid-cycle meetup date and location | 21:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Juno mid-cycle meetup date and location (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:04 | |
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| mikal | devananda and I talked about this a fair bit during the summit | 21:05 |
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| mikal | I was talking to him because I'd like to see the ironic guys more in attendance at the meetup than last time | 21:05 |
| mikal | The suggestion we've come up with is the week of 14 July, which is the week before OSCON | 21:05 |
| mikal | Intel has offered their Portland campus if we want it, which I think makes sense for all the people who are likely to be going on to OSCON | 21:05 |
| mikal | I'm hoping co-locating with OSCON will make it easier for some people to get travel approval | 21:06 |
| dansmith | portland where? | 21:06 |
| dansmith | hillsboro? | 21:06 |
| mikal | Beaverton IIRC | 21:06 |
| mikal | Which I am told is about 20 miles out of Portland | 21:06 |
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| mikal | But I've never been there | 21:06 |
| dansmith | yeah, it's definitely a relocation form OSCON | 21:06 |
| dansmith | like, you'd want to move hotels for sure | 21:06 |
| mikal | Yeah, I think that's ok though | 21:06 |
| tjones | i think the train goes to beaverton doesn't it? | 21:07 |
| mikal | For people flying in though, it makes the flights free for the meetup if they're doing both | 21:07 |
| dansmith | well, it'll be really annoying for me, but alas :) | 21:07 |
| tjones | or subway or whatever it is called | 21:07 |
| dansmith | tjones: it does, but it isn't really walkable from there to the campus, depending on which campus it is | 21:07 |
| leifz | Hey, no connections dansmith. | 21:07 |
| mikal | No connections? | 21:07 |
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| leifz | dan has no connecting flights. right? | 21:08 |
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| mikal | Oh, I see | 21:08 |
| dansmith | it's going to be seriously inconvenient for me for a different reason, but not much we can do about that | 21:08 |
| dansmith | or are we voting? | 21:08 |
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| mikal | The current proposal is that the ironic people have a room, we have a room, and when we feel we need to talk we all pile into one of the rooms. | 21:09 |
| dansmith | could it be the week after oscon/ | 21:09 |
| mikal | Hmmm, one sec | 21:09 |
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| mikal | Let me check the etherpad of doom | 21:09 |
| mikal | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-nova-midcycle-options was the original brainstorming etherpad | 21:09 |
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| * mikal is now finding the juno release dates | 21:10 | |
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| mikal | There's a deadline in there somewhere too | 21:11 |
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| cburgess | mikal: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Juno_Release_Schedule | 21:12 |
| leifz | Juno FPF is August 21st. | 21:12 |
| mikal | cburgess: thanks | 21:12 |
| mikal | So... juno-2 is the week of OSCON | 21:12 |
| cburgess | You wil be close to the j2 date. | 21:12 |
| mikal | So the week after SOCON is the first week of juno-3, instead of the last week of juno-2 | 21:12 |
| mikal | s/SOCON/OSCON/ | 21:12 |
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| mikal | I think we could make that work though | 21:13 |
| mikal | Do other people have an opinion? | 21:13 |
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| mikal | ...silence...? | 21:14 |
| dansmith | week after oscon it is! :) | 21:14 |
| mikal | Heh | 21:14 |
| mikal | Well, let me see if the venue / ironic people are avaialble | 21:14 |
| mikal | But it sounds like an option | 21:14 |
| alaski | I have no opinion either way atm | 21:14 |
| mikal | It would mean a three day meetup instead of something longer though, because I'd have to leave on the Wednesday to get to AU in time for pyconau | 21:15 |
| mikal | (Or you have a hackfest without me) | 21:15 |
| dansmith | three days is okay, right? | 21:15 |
| mriedem | yes | 21:15 |
| mikal | Yeah, that was the plan | 21:15 |
| dansmith | we almost ran out of stuff on the third day last time | 21:15 |
| mriedem | yup | 21:15 |
| mikal | With a possible hang around hackfest for people who wanted one | 21:15 |
| dansmith | that's fine | 21:15 |
| mikal | Ok, I will investigate | 21:15 |
| dansmith | thanks | 21:15 |
| mikal | #action mikal to find out of if the week of 28 July is available instead | 21:16 |
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| cburgess | Not bad having it short for folks who are also at OSCON, means we aren't gone for 2 full weeks. | 21:16 |
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| mikal | cburgess: this is true, especially for people doing CLS as well | 21:16 |
| mikal | cburgess: which I think devananda wanted to do | 21:16 |
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| geekinutah | mikal: did we talk about benue? | 21:16 |
| geekinutah | venue even | 21:16 |
| mikal | geekinutah: yeah, Intel in Portland | 21:16 |
| geekinutah | okay, I missed that part | 21:17 |
| mikal | NP | 21:17 |
| mikal | Anything else on midcycle meetup? | 21:17 |
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| mikal | Ok, moving on | 21:17 |
| mikal | #topic Post summit spec status | 21:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Post summit spec status (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:17 | |
| mikal | I have an etherpad for this at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-nova-summit-specs | 21:18 |
| mriedem | you want us to update status? | 21:18 |
| mikal | Basically I spent some time yesterday trying to work out which specs tied to thigns we'd decided at the summit | 21:18 |
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| mikal | I think the spec reviewers should be giving priority to those specs to unblock things we now have concensus on | 21:18 |
| sgordon | would this be better reflected by updating the status/targets on http://blueprints.launchpad.net/ ? | 21:18 |
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| mikal | sgordon: well, that happens after we've approved the spec | 21:19 |
| sgordon | not really | 21:19 |
| mikal | ? | 21:19 |
| sgordon | it has statuses for in discussion, review, etc | 21:19 |
| sgordon | and targeting happens before approval | 21:19 |
| mikal | Oh, I see | 21:19 |
| mikal | Well, step 1 is I am sure that this etherpad list is wrong | 21:19 |
| sgordon | yeah | 21:19 |
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| sgordon | that's mainly what i am getting at i guess :) | 21:19 |
| mikal | So, for people who presented something at the summit, can you please make sure your spec is in this list? | 21:20 |
| mikal | We can then review those / tweak LP statuses | 21:20 |
| mikal | I suspect many of them also need edits based on the outcome of the summit, so marking that would be helpful too | 21:20 |
| directxman12 | question: what about https://review.openstack.org/#/c/86947/ (Use libvirt storage pools)? It's been going on since before summit, but we discussed it at summit, and I'd like to get some reviews in | 21:20 |
| mikal | #action mikalt o email openstack-dev and say these things there as well | 21:20 |
| mikal | directxman12: yep, you should add that to the etherpad please, presumably under "needs review" | 21:21 |
| mikal | I think as we get more practise at specs we can be a bit more organized with this | 21:21 |
| mikal | Perhaps next time we should _require_ a spec proposal in gerrit before we accept the session at the summit for example | 21:22 |
| geekinutah | that sound like a worthy goal | 21:22 |
| mikal | #action Specs reviewers, please be paying attention to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-nova-summit-specs | 21:22 |
| yjiang5 | mikal: +1 | 21:22 |
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| mikal | So, I guess this part of the meeting is mostly just a call to action, unless anyone has any specs they feel we need to discuss right now? | 21:23 |
| mikal | I'd prefer just summit specs | 21:23 |
| mikal | We can do others at the end | 21:23 |
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| mikal | Nothing else? | 21:24 |
| mikal | Ok, moving on | 21:24 |
| mikal | #topic Bugs | 21:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:24 | |
| mikal | tjones has kindly agreed to stay on as bug triage leader person | 21:24 |
| mikal | I've asked her if she can do an update in each of our meetings about the current state of bugs | 21:24 |
| mikal | tjones: have you managed to get one for this week, or do you need more prep time? | 21:25 |
| tjones | nope - im ready | 21:25 |
| mikal | Go for it! | 21:25 |
| tjones | mikal: and i talked about having a top ten bug list to review at this meeting each week. | 21:25 |
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| tjones | since i don't have enough visibility into every subteam - i am going to need to depend on the subteam leaders to help me out with this | 21:26 |
| tjones | i've created an etherpad for tracking each week, i'd like you guys to help out by putting bugs on this and i can help push them if needed | 21:26 |
| tjones | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/NovaTopTenBugs | 21:26 |
| tjones | currently there are only 2 - the 1 critical bug and something that is blocking minesweeper (since i am the subteam lead for vmwareapi too) | 21:27 |
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| mikal | Is someone assigned to those bugs at the moment? | 21:27 |
| tjones | next week - i'd like to see more. comments or concerns with this? | 21:27 |
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| tjones | for the 2nd yes. for the 1st no | 21:27 |
| tjones | but it may have disappeared | 21:28 |
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| tjones | mriedem: was looking into it | 21:28 |
| mriedem | why is that tempest timeout one a top ten? | 21:28 |
| mriedem | we have A LOT of tempest timeout bugs | 21:28 |
| mriedem | they are all intermittent | 21:28 |
| tjones | so it is being cared for, is is the only bug marked ciritical | 21:28 |
| mriedem | due to load on the single node host when running tempest | 21:28 |
| mriedem | it probably shouldn't be critical | 21:28 |
| mriedem | it's been around since at least february | 21:29 |
| tjones | i'm assuming a critical bug always should be here | 21:29 |
| mriedem | let's drop the severity | 21:29 |
| tjones | ok sure. | 21:29 |
| mikal | tjones: you're right that we should be tracking critical bugs | 21:29 |
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| mriedem | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-May/035253.html | 21:29 |
| mikal | But it sounds like we can just tweak the severity on this one | 21:29 |
| mriedem | if anyone has ideas | 21:29 |
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| tjones | also during triage i've noticed we have a number of issues with resize - several new bugs on it. I don't have the #s handy but this is something to look out for | 21:29 |
| mriedem | tjones: yeah, fixing a few resize/migration issues this week | 21:30 |
| mriedem | at least i've seen a few bug fixes related to that this week | 21:30 |
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| * devananda catches up on scrollback | 21:31 | |
| mriedem | we need multi-node tempest to flush those out | 21:31 |
| mikal | Yeah, there's also heaps of older live migration bugs is someone is playing in that area | 21:31 |
| mikal | mriedem: agreed | 21:31 |
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| mikal | #action mikal to ping on multinode devstack status | 21:31 |
| tjones | that's all i wanted to say today. we'll see if this etherpad idea works and if not we can change things | 21:31 |
| mikal | tjones: thanks! | 21:31 |
| mikal | tjones and I also talked about having a bug day sometime in a couple of weeks, we'll lt people know when we have a more specific plan | 21:32 |
| tjones | i'll send something out on the ML too about this | 21:32 |
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| tjones | ah yes - and that too. | 21:32 |
| mikal | Anything else on bugs anyone? | 21:32 |
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| tjones | i was hoping next week - but maybe the week after on wednesday. i'll send out info on the ML | 21:32 |
| mikal | Sounds like a plan | 21:33 |
| mikal | Moving on | 21:33 |
| mikal | #topic Subteam reports | 21:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Subteam reports (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:33 | |
| mikal | We seem to be growing subteams quite a bit at the moment | 21:33 |
| mikal | There's now a NFV team, and a libvirt team | 21:34 |
| mikal | Have I missed any other new subteams? | 21:34 |
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| ewindisch | there is a containers team which would like to register. | 21:34 |
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| mikal | Oh yeah, I saw an email about that one too | 21:34 |
| sgordon | the NFV one is a bit...different | 21:34 |
| ewindisch | adrian_otto is leading that charge, although I don’t see him present | 21:34 |
| sgordon | in that it's cross project | 21:34 |
| mikal | sgordon: agreed, but I think we should ask to be kept informed because it will affect us | 21:34 |
| sgordon | though reporting into the impacted projects is expected | 21:35 |
| mikal | sgordon: which I am sure russellb will do anyways | 21:35 |
| sgordon | atm i think that would be nova/neutron/heat | 21:35 |
| sgordon | probably others down the line | 21:35 |
| ewindisch | mikal: I was going to ask if we can/should make the docker driver a subteam as well… in order to report status and keep everyone else in the loop — or if we should just stay quiet over in stackforge? ;-) | 21:35 |
| mikal | ewindisch: I have no problem with docker being a subteam if they'd like to be | 21:36 |
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| ewindisch | mikal: +1 | 21:36 |
| mikal | ewindisch: I think being quiet over on stackforge is a poor way to kept us aware of what's happening | 21:36 |
| mikal | So yeah, let's do that | 21:36 |
| ewindisch | mikal: precisely. | 21:36 |
| mikal | Although I don't know how that's different from a containers subteam? | 21:36 |
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| mikal | Unless the containers subteam is about a new service, and docker is about a driver | 21:37 |
| mikal | Which is possible | 21:37 |
| ewindisch | mikal: docker subteam == driver; containers subteam == api, service, and a bit of shared-code-DRY | 21:37 |
| mikal | Ok, well as long as you don't think you're doubling up | 21:37 |
| ewindisch | not at all. | 21:38 |
| mikal | Cool | 21:38 |
| mikal | So, who wants to do a subteam report? | 21:38 |
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| mikal | ...sound of crickets... | 21:38 |
| tjones | ok i'll go | 21:39 |
| mikal | Heh | 21:39 |
| mikal | Go! | 21:39 |
| tjones | vmwareapi - just recovering from the summit. updating specs based on discussions there. spawn refactor moviing along - 2 more to go with phase 1 (1 has a +2 hint, hint) | 21:39 |
| tjones | and done | 21:39 |
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| mikal | tjones: what's the review number for the first unmerged one in the chain? | 21:40 |
| tjones | https://review.openstack.org/86443 | 21:40 |
| tjones | thanks for asking :-) | 21:40 |
| mikal | Ok, I will take a look after this meeting unless someone beats me to it | 21:40 |
| tjones | mriedem: gave the 1st +2 | 21:41 |
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| mikal | Although, this one has only had 59 revisions, is it ready yet?!? | 21:41 |
| tjones | - many many many are rebases | 21:41 |
| mriedem | mikal: you had a +2 one so get it again | 21:41 |
| mikal | tjones: I know, but its still pretty impressive | 21:41 |
| mriedem | cosmetic change so re-+W | 21:41 |
| tjones | yea - i | 21:41 |
| mikal | mriedem: cool | 21:41 |
| tjones | it has been a journey | 21:41 |
| mikal | Ok, any other subteams? Scheduler is the most obvious one I think. | 21:42 |
| mriedem | fwiw, i think the hyper-v driver is going to be going in the same direction soon with how the unit tests are structured | 21:42 |
| mriedem | from what i was looking at today | 21:42 |
| mriedem | same issues with testing driver/vmops/utils from the top level | 21:42 |
| mikal | mriedem: as in a big refactoring? | 21:42 |
| mriedem | hyper-v has far fewer patches, but when there is one i have the same concerns about how the UT is designed | 21:42 |
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| mikal | Fair enough | 21:42 |
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| mikal | But it sounds like they already agree? | 21:43 |
| devananda | mikal: not that it's a subteam, but i'll be posting two specs for ironic by EOD | 21:43 |
| mriedem | no idea | 21:43 |
| mikal | mriedem: should we talk to them about it? | 21:43 |
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| mriedem | hyper-v guys were refactoring tests to use mock in icehouse i thought but not sure what happened with that | 21:43 |
| mikal | devananda: cool, let me know the review numbers when you do | 21:43 |
| mriedem | no one wants to review mox->mock refactoring | 21:43 |
| ewindisch | containers subteam - just figuring out what we are / what our mission is… all kittens and self-loathing from there. Should have more next week. | 21:44 |
| mikal | Ok, it sounds like we're done with subteam reports | 21:44 |
| mikal | Going... | 21:44 |
| ewindisch | docker subteam - rampaging through bugfiling… | 21:44 |
| ewindisch | and investigating cinder support | 21:44 |
| mikal | going... | 21:44 |
| ewindisch | big blocker there, actually, is that most of the useful code is in libvirt/volume.py | 21:44 |
| mikal | ewindisch: you're allowed to refactor | 21:45 |
| ewindisch | and that’s it. | 21:45 |
| ewindisch | mikal: yeah, I think I’ll need to - and I’m planning a spec for that refactor | 21:45 |
| mikal | ewindisch: sounds like a plan to me | 21:45 |
| ewindisch | bug we might need to discuss if it’s better to put that stuff into oslo or cinder itself at this point? | 21:45 |
| mikal | Anything else on subteams? | 21:45 |
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| ewindisch | ^- done | 21:45 |
| mikal | ewindisch: well, I guess it depends on what stuff. Let's wait for the spec and then discuss. | 21:46 |
| ewindisch | agreed | 21:46 |
| mikal | #topic Open Discussion | 21:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:46 | |
| mikal | Ok, so what else do people want to cover? | 21:46 |
| geekinutah | sooooo, about the no-db-scheduler stuff | 21:47 |
| mikal | Is there a spec? | 21:47 |
| geekinutah | there is, I stuck it on the etherpad under contentious | 21:47 |
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| yjiang5 | I have a question to server state/status and get no response from ML/IRC, just asking here. Currently the server API will present both state and status, what's exact difference of these two? | 21:48 |
| geekinutah | is it fair to say we came out of that session mostly concluding that work can go on, but it needs to be optional? | 21:48 |
| mikal | yjiang5: hang ten a sec | 21:48 |
| mikal | geekinutah: definitely optional | 21:48 |
| directxman12 | mikal: are we surfing? | 21:48 |
| mikal | geekinutah: there also seemed to be a fair bit of concern about the table design in memcache | 21:48 |
| mikal | geekinutah: i.e. there might be existing design patterns which could be reused | 21:48 |
| mikal | geekinutah: is boris-42 the one working on this, or is it someone else at Mirantis? | 21:49 |
| geekinutah | mikal: yah, but at least we can take the big -2 off the spec and start arguing about implementation | 21:49 |
| geekinutah | mikal: it's boris-42's baby, but I want to help it along a bit | 21:49 |
| mikal | I feel like arguing in a spec about that bit is going to be long and painful | 21:49 |
| mikal | Would it be possible to try and get the people who had concerns to chat to boris-42 and you more directly? | 21:50 |
| mikal | Just to speed the process up | 21:50 |
| devananda | i had a lot of concern about the proposed way to maintain distributed state | 21:50 |
| geekinutah | yeah, that sounds doable | 21:50 |
| devananda | happy to chat with folks -- also, boris-42 is going to be in seattle next week IIRC | 21:51 |
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| mikal | devananda: would you be willing to do an IRC chat with the Mirantis guys to try and address those concerns? | 21:51 |
| mikal | I know jaypipes was concerned too | 21:51 |
| devananda | he and I were planning to meet up while he's here, so we can work on that too | 21:51 |
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| mikal | Ok, cool | 21:51 |
| alaski | I have concerns about requiring a full host state to be sent every time, but I can detail that on the spec | 21:51 |
| mikal | So yeah, let's try and get some agreement on that before we worry too much about the spec | 21:51 |
| mikal | alaski: sounds good to me | 21:51 |
| geekinutah | do you want to revisit the results in next meeting or keep it offline till we have something simpler to propose? | 21:52 |
| mikal | geekinutah: and maybe we can aim for a status update in the next meeting? | 21:52 |
| mikal | Heh | 21:52 |
| geekinutah | sounds good :-) | 21:52 |
| mikal | geekinutah: so, a quick status update sounds like a good plan | 21:52 |
| mikal | #action geekinutah to try and get people talking about the design of the no db scheduler data store and report back next week | 21:52 |
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| mikal | Anything else on no db scheduler? | 21:53 |
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| geekinutah | let's move on, that's good for now | 21:53 |
| mikal | yjiang5: back to you | 21:53 |
| yjiang5 | mikal: sure | 21:53 |
| mikal | yjiang5: can you repost your question? | 21:54 |
| yjiang5 | I have a question to server state/status and get no response from ML/IRC, just asking here. Currently the server API will present both state and status, what's exact difference of these two? | 21:54 |
| mikal | What was the email subject line? | 21:54 |
| yjiang5 | sorry, I mean service state/status | 21:54 |
| yjiang5 | I sent it before the summit, let me try to find it. | 21:55 |
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| dansmith | yjiang5: you mean "nova service-list" | 21:55 |
| dansmith | ? | 21:55 |
| yjiang5 | dansmith: yes | 21:55 |
| dansmith | yjiang5: and do you mean state/reason? | 21:55 |
| yjiang5 | dansmith: no, I mean the "status" and "state" of the nova service-list. | 21:56 |
| dansmith | oh, the smiley face | 21:56 |
| dansmith | status is the admin status enabled/disabled, | 21:56 |
| dansmith | the state is :-) if the node has checked in in the last 60 seconds or whatever, and :-( if not | 21:56 |
| dansmith | you can disable a service in :-) state so that it won't be scheduled to | 21:57 |
| dansmith | it's an admin state, whereas the smiley tells you if the service appears to be alive/online | 21:57 |
| yjiang5 | dansmith: got it. So a service disabled can still be :-) , right? | 21:57 |
| mikal | I'm trying to find a good reference to this in the docs, but not succeeding | 21:58 |
| dansmith | yes | 21:58 |
| yjiang5 | dansmith: frankly speaking, it's really ......... not clear. I know the underlying code implemenation, but IMHO, it's confusing. | 21:58 |
| yjiang5 | dansmith: thanks for clarification. | 21:58 |
| dansmith | yjiang5: on the other hand, it seems so self-explanatory to me, I've never even thought about it needing to be documented :) | 21:58 |
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| mikal | Given I can't find anything in the docs, I think it could certainly be documented better | 21:59 |
| yjiang5 | mikal: thanks. | 21:59 |
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| mikal | #action mikal to chase better documentation for "nova service-list" | 21:59 |
| mikal | Which probably means I file a docs bug | 21:59 |
| mikal | So, we're out of time | 21:59 |
| mikal | Anything else super urgent which can't be done in email? | 21:59 |
| yjiang5 | mikal: thanks. | 21:59 |
| mikal | Ok, thanks for your time peoples | 22:00 |
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| mikal | #endmeeting | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 22 22:00:30 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:00 |
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| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2014/nova.2014-05-22-21.02.html | 22:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2014/nova.2014-05-22-21.02.txt | 22:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2014/nova.2014-05-22-21.02.log.html | 22:00 |
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