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| johnthetubaguy | #startmeeting XenAPI | 15:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 15 15:00:07 2013 UTC. The chair is johnthetubaguy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'xenapi' | 15:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | hi, who is around for the meeting today? | 15:00 |
| BobBall | you were watching the clock, weren't you john :D | 15:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | :-D | 15:00 |
| matelakat | hi | 15:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | any more topics from people, other than what is in the agenda page? | 15:00 |
| BobBall | nah | 15:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK, looks like just the three of us | 15:01 |
| BobBall | not from me | 15:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | lets get going | 15:01 |
| BobBall | I thought we might want to talk about quantum stuff and get other people in to help with that, but we'll go through what Mate's got | 15:01 |
| BobBall | at the appropriate point of the Agenda of course! | 15:01 |
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| johnthetubaguy | matelakat, you got anything for the agenda? | 15:02 |
| johnthetubaguy | other than quantum? | 15:02 |
| matelakat | I am 50% regarding to last meetings action | 15:02 |
| matelakat | The bugstat page has been updated. | 15:02 |
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| matelakat | Quantum is up and running. | 15:02 |
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| matelakat | In the lab. | 15:02 |
| johnthetubaguy | one sec... | 15:02 |
| johnthetubaguy | #topic Actions from last meeting | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:03 | |
| matelakat | Okay, so | 15:03 |
| matelakat | bugstat page updated. | 15:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | so bob, did you poke dan, I think I saw a promising email>? | 15:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool | 15:03 |
| BobBall | I did indeed | 15:03 |
| BobBall | I'm sure if you asked him, Dan would consider himself well and truly poked | 15:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | I updated the wiki | 15:03 |
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| johnthetubaguy | #action matelakat to document bug finder in XenAPI team wiki | 15:04 |
| BobBall | The status is that the machines have been re-built and the domU image put back on one of them | 15:04 |
| BobBall | we're now ready to move on to the puppet stuff | 15:04 |
| matelakat | Whatever that means. | 15:04 |
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| johnthetubaguy | #info smokestack making progress, hosts ready, now to work on fixing up puppet scrips | 15:04 |
| matelakat | I think I will try to have a chat with Dan this week, or beginning of next week. | 15:04 |
| BobBall | So one change... | 15:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool, its merge his old puppet scripts into the new upstream ones I guess, to add in XenServer support into the puppet modules | 15:05 |
| BobBall | we were going to have half the machines running 6.1 and half running 5.6 FP2 | 15:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK, then flip over the others if all goes well? | 15:05 |
| BobBall | however I realised that since smokestack is running the jobs on a random machine, we don't want differences between the versions meaning some tests pass and some tests fail | 15:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | indeed | 15:05 |
| BobBall | so we have switched all machines to 6.1 which is what we should be focusing on now | 15:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah, gotcha | 15:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | sounds good | 15:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | leave the virt option open too | 15:06 |
| BobBall | yes - although I haven't testing running 5.6FP2 in a VM under 6.1 | 15:06 |
| BobBall | that would be an interesting experiment for sure | 15:06 |
| BobBall | :) | 15:06 |
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| johnthetubaguy | well lets run before we can walk, obviously | 15:07 |
| johnthetubaguy | next topic | 15:07 |
| BobBall | On to Mate's action? | 15:07 |
| johnthetubaguy | which one? | 15:07 |
| BobBall | I was just browsing the bug report... | 15:07 |
| BobBall | saw https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1162973 which looked interesting - aggregate live migration not working | 15:07 |
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| uvirtbot` | Launchpad bug 1162973 in nova "XCP resource pool - unable to migrate instances" [Medium,Triaged] | 15:07 |
| BobBall | do we have any tests for this? | 15:07 |
| johnthetubaguy | ok, we have a bug section for later, but we can do that now | 15:07 |
| BobBall | oh, sorry | 15:07 |
| johnthetubaguy | mate added them into tempest I think | 15:07 |
| BobBall | smokestack progress is also later on the agenda but we covered that(!) | 15:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah, true | 15:08 |
| matelakat | Excuse me. | 15:08 |
| matelakat | Are we talking about Bob's bug, or not? | 15:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | we can | 15:08 |
| BobBall | Not my bug - just an interesting one :) Did you add aggregate live migrate tests to Tempest mate? | 15:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am current re-writing the live-migrate code paths, cough | 15:08 |
| matelakat | Are we at that page regarding to the agenda? | 15:09 |
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| johnthetubaguy | nope, I only have to delete it in a few hours | 15:09 |
| matelakat | I never tested any pool config. | 15:09 |
| matelakat | never tested means no jenkins jobs | 15:09 |
| johnthetubaguy | sure, but your tests can test such a configuration | 15:09 |
| johnthetubaguy | just I assume no one tests to pool support | 15:09 |
| matelakat | I tried it once manually, but please don't consider it as a proof for anything | 15:10 |
| matelakat | That was a long ago. | 15:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | indeed | 15:10 |
| matelakat | with J. | 15:10 |
| matelakat | with fish and chips. | 15:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | but tempest has tests that work, its just requires some setup | 15:10 |
| matelakat | yes. | 15:10 |
| matelakat | The same tests as the block migration. | 15:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | I guess the other point is there are current no automated tests checking that config? | 15:10 |
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| BobBall | That was more my question - does the Citrix CI test this config for live migration | 15:11 |
| matelakat | No automated tests with pools. | 15:11 |
| BobBall | I know we test block migration outside of pools | 15:11 |
| BobBall | okay | 15:11 |
| matelakat | Can we move on? | 15:11 |
| BobBall | sure | 15:11 |
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| matelakat | Where are we regarding to the agenda? | 15:11 |
| BobBall | actions | 15:12 |
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| BobBall | but we've jumped over a bit | 15:12 |
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| BobBall | next is your action Mate on documenting the bug finder in the XenAPI team wiki | 15:12 |
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| johnthetubaguy | mate said he didn't do it | 15:12 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I raised a new one for next week | 15:12 |
| matelakat | I will give it a low priority. | 15:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | we are done here I guess | 15:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | #topic blueprints | 15:12 |
| matelakat | I'll be focusing on smoke. | 15:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "blueprints (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:12 | |
| johnthetubaguy | +1 to smokestack | 15:13 |
| BobBall | oh - what about your action John? | 15:13 |
| matelakat | tss tss | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | its done | 15:13 |
| BobBall | I missed that :) | 15:13 |
| BobBall | okay : | 15:13 |
| BobBall | :) | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | we did that really early on I thought | 15:13 |
| matelakat | tss tss | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | lol | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | so, xenapi-server-log | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | a quick update | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | chatting with people, its a feature that is used loads | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | I was hoping to spend a day hacking to see how bad it would look for H | 15:14 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so I am probably going to take that and target for H-2 ish | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | but will see how it goes | 15:14 |
| matelakat | Can I have a Q? | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | any more from blueprints? | 15:15 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sure | 15:15 |
| matelakat | A patch is mentioned in the bp. | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | yup | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | its not considered the best way forward | 15:15 |
| BobBall | that patch is in all versions of XenServer and XCP though | 15:15 |
| matelakat | It doesn not mean, that you need to do anything with that patch, it is just there for documentation purposes | 15:15 |
| matelakat | OK | 15:15 |
| matelakat | Bob reads my mind. | 15:15 |
| BobBall | I assumed Mate was meaning the xen patch? | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | I might use bits of that patch | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | it was a xenapi patch I think | 15:16 |
| BobBall | https://github.com/jamesbulpin/xcp-xen-4.1.pq/blob/master/log-guest-consoles.patch ? | 15:16 |
| BobBall | that's a xen patch - not xapi | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | oh, that one | 15:16 |
| matelakat | Yes, I meant that one. | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | gotcha | 15:16 |
| BobBall | in fact XAPI knows nothing about it at all | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | its not that important | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | just for reference | 15:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool, any more for blueprints, any thing for docs, else straight to bugs | 15:17 |
| BobBall | I've confirmed that it's in Tampa | 15:17 |
| BobBall | I can confirm it's in Boston if you give me a second | 15:17 |
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| BobBall | yes, it's in Boston too. | 15:17 |
| matelakat | Bob, can we use numbers instead of codenames? | 15:17 |
| BobBall | But it is a XenServer patch to Xen - which is not upstream. | 15:17 |
| BobBall | Sorry; it's in XenServer 6.0 and 6.1 (probably earlier too) - and therefore it'll be in the 1.6 XCP too | 15:18 |
| matelakat | So, back to that blueprint. | 15:18 |
| BobBall | but it is not present in Xen upstream, therefore a change is needed to upstream xen if you want to use this on xapi-xcp on Ubuntu or CentOS etc | 15:18 |
| matelakat | It has two parts. | 15:18 |
| matelakat | One is an OS, and the other is a dom0 mod. | 15:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | ?? | 15:18 |
| matelakat | dom0 mod - logrotate, etc. | 15:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | oh, maybe | 15:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | and other bits I think, but yes | 15:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | hoepfully will just add a script to help set that up | 15:19 |
| BobBall | Could do the log rotate through a XAPI plugin triggered by domU cronjob... a little ugly, but keeps a clean separation for Dom0 changes | 15:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | I guess it is a deployer choice | 15:20 |
| matelakat | I would trigger it from dom0 | 15:20 |
| matelakat | in case domu is dead | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | +1 that was my plan | 15:20 |
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| matelakat | So dom0 is responsible for baking the rotated log tails | 15:20 |
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| matelakat | OS is just reading those. | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | +1 | 15:20 |
| BobBall | well I was assuming using a loopback filesystem so domu being dead would only mean consoles stopped getting logged at some point when the disk ran out of space but fair enough :) | 15:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | planning to do both, using loopback inside dom0 | 15:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | and dom0 log rotate | 15:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | will try it, and see how it goes | 15:21 |
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| BobBall | ok | 15:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | and if the VNC terminals stay up | 15:21 |
| matelakat | And what happens if disk goes full | 15:21 |
| matelakat | I meant loopback goes full. | 15:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | the logs stop growing for other users on that host | 15:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | but it doesn't kill the host | 15:22 |
| matelakat | And is the guest affected? | 15:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | might do one per VM, but that is probably overjill | 15:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | shouldn't be, all part of the testing | 15:22 |
| matelakat | Let's move on, leave some space for J | 15:23 |
| johnthetubaguy | indeed | 15:23 |
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| johnthetubaguy | any more blueprints, or any docs stuff? | 15:23 |
| matelakat | Are we at the point, where I can share my quantum experiences? | 15:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | almost | 15:24 |
| BobBall | well does you want to cover the devstack bp mate? | 15:24 |
| matelakat | Okay. | 15:24 |
| BobBall | Any questions, or reviews that you need us to do or something? | 15:24 |
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| matelakat | It is showing progress, I had some really exciting feedback this week, and thanks for that again. | 15:24 |
| matelakat | I think we are getting there. | 15:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | #topic OpenDiscussion | 15:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenDiscussion (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:25 | |
| matelakat | As soon as the networking patch is accepted, we can kill out eth0 and the rest of the stuff. | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think we are there already, fire away | 15:25 |
| matelakat | Okay. QUantum | 15:25 |
| matelakat | Are you prepared? | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | almost | 15:25 |
| BobBall | or the networking stack formally known as quantum | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | +! | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | +1 | 15:25 |
| matelakat | We don't know what is its name. | 15:25 |
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| matelakat | #link https://github.com/citrix-openstack/qa/blob/master/xenserver-quantum-devstack.sh | 15:26 |
| BobBall | if I had a choice, I'd vote for Dave. | 15:26 |
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| matelakat | So that is a script, which will set up a devstack with quantum. | 15:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | the firewall driver is a worry, but porbably correct | 15:26 |
| matelakat | With using Maru's patches, and some spice on top of that. | 15:26 |
| matelakat | which firewall driver? | 15:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | whats the spice? | 15:27 |
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| BobBall | an existing devstack installation? | 15:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | XEN_FIREWALL_DRIVER=nova.virt.firewall.NoopFirewallDriver | 15:27 |
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| matelakat | #link https://github.com/citrix-openstack/quantum/commit/b267632284ebb5f3f66137e85881d976f5d145c7 | 15:27 |
| matelakat | John, I linked in the "spice" | 15:27 |
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| matelakat | So, first things first. | 15:27 |
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| matelakat | Maru's DHCP patch will need to be modified slightly, and I am doing that this week. | 15:28 |
| matelakat | Regarding to the firewall driver. | 15:28 |
| matelakat | As quantum is implementing the security groups (or not at the moment), you need to turn off the nova one, in order to avoid conflicts. | 15:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | not sure why you had to change some of that stuff, but not looked at quantum in a while | 15:29 |
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| johnthetubaguy | OK, you used to be able to do both I thought, never mind | 15:29 |
| matelakat | So, that ugly patch. | 15:29 |
| matelakat | It is about getting things working. | 15:30 |
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| johnthetubaguy | OK, looks like security groups needs some TLC for XCP | 15:30 |
| matelakat | So, regarding to security groups. | 15:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | but its a good step forward, regardless | 15:30 |
| matelakat | I turned them off, because otherwise a race condition appears with the agent and the L3 plugin fighting for iptables. | 15:31 |
| matelakat | And I spoke with maru. | 15:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | hmm, fun | 15:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK | 15:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | any insights? | 15:32 |
| matelakat | So he had a question, that we might need to think about. | 15:33 |
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| matelakat | Does Citrix have any intention of providing a namespace-supporting dom0 kernel for XS/XCP? In Folsom, no L3 filtering was being performed in dom0, so namespace support was only required in domU. However, the security group implementation introduced in Grizzly will require that L3 filtering be performed in dom0, and the lack of namespace support will prevent a configuration that supports overlapping ips. | 15:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | oh, yeah, that one | 15:33 |
| matelakat | So that's something we need to do. | 15:33 |
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| johnthetubaguy | but you could just have a separate machine running dhcp | 15:34 |
| matelakat | Honestly, I am not really keen on doing any L3 filtering on dom0 | 15:34 |
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| BobBall | I also think it'd be hard to make that change to support namespaces | 15:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | why is that? | 15:34 |
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| BobBall | XS 6.1 is out, 6.2 is nearly out, and my understanding is it needs a kernel change which might be tricky to convince people to take in a hotfix | 15:35 |
| matelakat | I think we should need to do some more investigation, to understand the requirements. | 15:35 |
| BobBall | If we can do the L3 filtering in the DomU then that would be an easier fit than changing the dom0 kernel on released versions | 15:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | but we can just use a separate server right? | 15:36 |
| johnthetubaguy | one dedicated for dhcp | 15:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | with a kernel that supports that stuff | 15:37 |
| matelakat | DHCP is working, and indeed running in DomU | 15:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | I don't mean domU | 15:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | I mean a separate full server, not a VM, just runing DHCP | 15:38 |
| matelakat | domU - other machine, isn't it the same? | 15:38 |
| matelakat | It's not dom0 | 15:38 |
| johnthetubaguy | not quite | 15:39 |
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| BobBall | so what means that Maru still thinks it needs namespaces in dom0? | 15:39 |
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| johnthetubaguy | well, there is no need for maru's path I thought, if you run in a separate machine | 15:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | if you run dhcp on every server | 15:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | something they might do this release | 15:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | then you would want that on dom0 | 15:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | mostly because the L3 routing is going on there | 15:40 |
| matelakat | I am not sure I understand you, John. | 15:40 |
| johnthetubaguy | erm, could do to draw a picture | 15:40 |
| matelakat | good idea. | 15:40 |
| matelakat | Let's take it offline. | 15:40 |
| matelakat | and carry on with the meeting. | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, basically DHCP could be run on a server not running XenServer | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | and just do it as with any other hypervisor | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | its only needed on XenServer to support single box deployments | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | and multi-host, which is not yet upstream | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | yes, lets move on | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | I had one item, Xen Hackathon | 15:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | it was more an advert that I am going | 15:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | but that was all really | 15:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | anything more? | 15:42 |
| BobBall | I'm afraid that the hackathon has run out of spaces... | 15:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | or we can quickly touch quantum? | 15:43 |
| BobBall | I was hoping to go, but won't be there | 15:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | indeed, it was going to be to chat with those who were going | 15:43 |
| BobBall | I'm assuming that the focus will be on Xapi in CentOS and not OpenStack? | 15:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, it will be now | 15:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | I might look at the console-log | 15:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | if people are interested | 15:43 |
| BobBall | that'd be great to get something up stream | 15:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | oh, I wasn't thinking that side | 15:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | someone is already upstreaming that patch | 15:44 |
| BobBall | oh :D | 15:44 |
| BobBall | good to hear! | 15:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | so any more for any more? | 15:44 |
| matelakat | I am done. | 15:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | I will probably leave for the airport then... | 15:45 |
| BobBall | I'm done too | 15:45 |
| BobBall | Have a safe trip | 15:45 |
| matelakat | y | 15:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | thank you | 15:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | see you later | 15:45 |
| BobBall | Try not to drink too much guinnes | 15:45 |
| BobBall | +s | 15:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | #endmeeting | 15:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 15:45 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 15 15:45:26 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:45 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2013/xenapi.2013-05-15-15.00.html | 15:45 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2013/xenapi.2013-05-15-15.00.txt | 15:45 |
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| johnthetubaguy | :-) | 15:45 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2013/xenapi.2013-05-15-15.00.log.html | 15:45 |
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| BobBall | o/ | 15:45 |
| BobBall | o/~ | 15:45 |
| BobBall | since I have to be waiving. | 15:45 |
| BobBall | *gone* | 15:45 |
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| thingee | no cinder meeting today folks | 16:01 |
| thingee | make sure your whiteboards for your bps are up-to-date with progress though | 16:01 |
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| vincent_hou | Wow. | 16:01 |
| vincent_hou | it means i can sleep now :-) | 16:02 |
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| vincent_hou | thingee: please take a look at the patch I submitted. | 16:02 |
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| thingee | vincent_hou: roger | 16:02 |
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| rushiagr | ow | 16:03 |
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| vincent_hou | Have a good day, folks. | 16:05 |
| skolathu | Hello everyone | 16:06 |
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| hartsocks | * I'm getting ready for the VMwareAPI meeting in this room in 15 minutes. | 16:45 |
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| hartsocks | #startmeeting VMwareAPI | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 15 17:00:09 2013 UTC. The chair is hartsocks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'vmwareapi' | 17:00 |
| hartsocks | Hello everyone, welcome to the first official meeting of the VMwareAPI dedicated subteam. | 17:00 |
| hartsocks | Who is with us today? | 17:00 |
| danwent | hello! | 17:00 |
| tjones | Hi | 17:00 |
| ssshi | hi | 17:01 |
| kirankv | Hi ! | 17:01 |
| cbananth | Hi | 17:01 |
| Yatin | Hello | 17:01 |
| danwent | ok, that seems like a quorum :) | 17:01 |
| hartsocks | Okay then. | 17:01 |
| hartsocks | For the record... | 17:02 |
| hartsocks | #info https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/VMwareAPI#Agenda | 17:02 |
| hartsocks | Let's open first with any blocking or high priority bugs that people feel may be open but not being addressed... | 17:02 |
| danwent | could we have people quickly intro first? | 17:02 |
| hartsocks | Ah. | 17:03 |
| danwent | i'm not sure everyone knows everyone | 17:03 |
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| hartsocks | Okay… good point. It is the first meeting. | 17:03 |
| danwent | (especially with IRC nicks | 17:03 |
| danwent | so i'm dan wendlandt, from vmware | 17:03 |
| hartsocks | I'm Shawn Hartsock and I'm one of a cadre of developers from VMware working on Nova compute drivers for VMwareAPI's | 17:03 |
| tjones | im tracy jones from vmware. new to the team - don't officially start until june 1 ;-) | 17:04 |
| danwent | tjones: getting a head start, nice :) | 17:04 |
| ssshi | well, i'm Shanshi Shi, from ctrip.com, a chinese booking website. we started to look into openstack this March. | 17:04 |
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| danwent | nice to meet you ssshi | 17:04 |
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| Tross | Hi guys - thanks for getting this rolling! | 17:05 |
| woodspa | I'm Patrick Woods from IBM and new to this group but quite interested in its success. | 17:05 |
| danwent | ok, anyone else want to intro themselves? | 17:05 |
| kirankv | Hi, Im Kirankumar Vaddi from HP | 17:05 |
| Eustace | Hi, I'm Eustace from HP | 17:06 |
| Yatin | this is yatin kumbhare from HP | 17:06 |
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| hartsocks | Nice. | 17:06 |
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| danwent | sweet, a good number of people. very excited about what this will mean for vmware support in openstack | 17:06 |
| hartsocks | In honor of the folks in India and China I'm playing "Up all night" by Daft Punk. | 17:07 |
| hartsocks | Any other folks want to introduce themselves or shall we move to our agenda? | 17:07 |
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| cbananth | Am Ananth from HP | 17:08 |
| cbananth | I work with Kiran and Eustace | 17:08 |
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| hartsocks | BTW: if the last time you've used IRC was the 1990's ... | 17:09 |
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| hartsocks | We're using Meetbot in this channel. | 17:09 |
| hartsocks | #info http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot | 17:10 |
| hartsocks | #topic high priority bugs | 17:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "high priority bugs (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)" | 17:10 | |
| danwent | #info we are tagging all bugs with 'vmware', and so you can see all vmware bugs with a search like: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bugs?field.tag=vmware | 17:10 |
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| hartsocks | That tag is really important. | 17:11 |
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| hartsocks | Does anyone have any "pet" bugs that might be blockers or otherwise? | 17:11 |
| danwent | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1178369 | 17:11 |
| uvirtbot` | Launchpad bug 1178369 in nova "VNC console does not work with VCDriver" [Medium,Confirmed] | 17:11 |
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| danwent | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1171930 | 17:12 |
| uvirtbot` | Launchpad bug 1171930 in nova "vsphere driver hardcoded to only use first datastore in cluster" [Wishlist,Confirmed] | 17:12 |
| danwent | this are big issues with our internal deployment | 17:12 |
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| danwent | it looks like that second bug is duplicated by: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1104994 | 17:12 |
| uvirtbot` | Launchpad bug 1104994 in nova "Multi datastore support for provisioning of instances on ESX" [Undecided,In progress] | 17:12 |
| danwent | or maybe the second one has a bit broader scope? | 17:13 |
| danwent | anyway, there seems to be overlap at the least | 17:13 |
| danwent | and the bug you just filed is also quite important: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1180471 | 17:13 |
| uvirtbot` | Launchpad bug 1180471 in nova "vmware: vmdk fail to attach to new VMs when using "thin" vmdk" [Undecided,New] | 17:13 |
| hartsocks | I've assigned the first two to myself initially. I don't actually have the bandwidth to close all these rapidly. | 17:14 |
| Eustace | We are addressing 1171930 "vsphere driver hardcoded to only use first datastore in cluster" | 17:14 |
| hartsocks | Eustace: could you take that over or discuss it with whomever is assigned? | 17:14 |
| danwent | Eustace: would be good to see a proposed design, as I have talked with a few customers about their needs there, and it would be good to compare notes | 17:14 |
| danwent | we can have the discussion in the bug thread | 17:15 |
| Eustace | we should be able to provide the necessary details | 17:15 |
| danwent | but we should likey converge to a single bug, and get this fixed quickly | 17:15 |
| danwent | kirankv: were you also mentioning an issue with how resources are reported by the VCdriver? | 17:16 |
| Divakar | danwent: Would you put in your requirements in the bug thread for 1171930 | 17:16 |
| Eustace | sure | 17:16 |
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| danwent | Divakar: sure. in fact, there's a proposal in there already for one possible model, see comments about "datastore_regex" | 17:17 |
| danwent | there are other ways to solve it as well. | 17:17 |
| Divakar | danwent: currently vcdriver is reporting the capacity of the first host in the cluster | 17:17 |
| hartsocks | Hmm… interesting. Is that in the bug description? | 17:17 |
| danwent | Divakar: ok, is there a bug filed for this and tagged with vmware? we'll likely want to backport that change, so we should track it separately. | 17:17 |
| danwent | hartsocks: which item are you talking about… datastore issue, or resource issue? | 17:18 |
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| hartsocks | sorry… I was talking about the vcdriver capacity reporting. | 17:18 |
| Divakar | I am not sure we filed that as bug or blueprint for enhancement | 17:18 |
| Eustace | We have a blueprint | 17:19 |
| danwent | Divakar: ok, can you file a bug? it should be separate from a blueprint, I suspect, as we will want to backport it to grizzly as a bug fix. If it is just included in a larger blueprint, it will likely get lost. | 17:19 |
| danwent | and not backported. | 17:19 |
| ssshi | the datastore_regex is exactly what we used to do, the regex is configured in the database, should we move the datastore calculation to an upper level, and the vcdriver just report all the datastores to the scheduler/conductor | 17:19 |
| hartsocks | ssshi: nice | 17:19 |
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| hartsocks | ssshi: can you post a patch or something? That might at least inform/inspire the bugfixer | 17:20 |
| Divakar | thanks eustace.. yeah we have it filed as blueprint https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/accurate-capacity-of-clusters-for-scheduler | 17:20 |
| ssshi | well, I'm still new to the community, might take a while | 17:20 |
| danwent | Divakar: is it a large change? | 17:21 |
| hartsocks | ssshi: that's part of why we need this kind of forum, to help people start contributing. If you can only post a writeup of what you did to the bug that is better than nothing. | 17:21 |
| danwent | something tracked as a blueprint are usually large and therefore cannot be backported. | 17:21 |
| hartsocks | danwent: btw, blueprints are up next | 17:22 |
| ssshi | hartsocks: ok, could you please tell me where should I post it? | 17:22 |
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| danwent | hartsocks: sure, just trying to figure out if this should actually be a bug. but we can talk about it later as well. | 17:23 |
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| danwent | that blueprint seems to also include new stuff around resources pools. so yeah, let's talk about it in the next section. may need to be split. | 17:23 |
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| hartsocks | ssshi: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1171930 <- just write a comment right here in the bug, be as detailed as you like/can. If you have a patch post it. Thanks! | 17:24 |
| uvirtbot` | Launchpad bug 1171930 in nova "vsphere driver hardcoded to only use first datastore in cluster" [Wishlist,Confirmed] | 17:24 |
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| danwent | only other bug to mention is: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1178791 | 17:25 |
| uvirtbot` | Launchpad bug 1178791 in nova "Nova compute backtraces with nova KeyError: 1 when using VMwareVCDriver" [Undecided,New] | 17:25 |
| ssshi | hartsocks: thx. i'll do it tomorrow (it's midnight here) | 17:25 |
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| danwent | this bug may be quantum specific. we're going to ping the dev who made the recent change that seems to have caused the issue, as he has already been doing some work with the vsphere driver. | 17:25 |
| hartsocks | Is this a blocker or is there a work-around? | 17:26 |
| danwent | hartsocks: i believe nova-compute crashes whenever it is restarted if there are instances provisioned and you are using quantum. | 17:27 |
| danwent | if that is the case, seems like a blocker :) | 17:27 |
| danwent | seems related to this commit: https://github.com/openstack/nova/commit/45e65d8c0301da689de1afcbc9f45756e71097ab | 17:27 |
| hartsocks | Okay. I'll add it to my personal list. (but I need to start delegating here soon) | 17:28 |
| danwent | hartsocks: i think Yaguang Tang will be able to take a look | 17:28 |
| danwent | i was expecting him here at this meeting, but since he's not, i'll ping him offline | 17:28 |
| hartsocks | Let's get Yaguang Tang to assign himself this bug then. | 17:29 |
| hartsocks | Okay, any other critical bugs not discussed? | 17:29 |
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| hartsocks | #topic Blueprints | 17:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)" | 17:30 | |
| hartsocks | #info https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/NovaVMware#Proposed_Blueprints | 17:30 |
| hartsocks | Thanks to Dan for compiling this list. | 17:30 |
| hartsocks | When I went searching for other blueprints I couldn't find anything not listed. | 17:31 |
| hartsocks | That did cause me to spot that not all blueprints have the keyword "vmware" in their subjects. | 17:31 |
| hartsocks | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova?searchtext=vmware | 17:33 |
| ssshi | about capacity reporting, we want to use nova-compute to manage existing VMs as well, so any ideas how to import them? | 17:34 |
| danwent | one thing that russellb mentioned was that we need to get those blueprints assigned to the people that will actually be pushing the code | 17:34 |
| danwent | otherwise it looks like more work than one person could actually do | 17:34 |
| kirankv | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/multiple-clusters-managed-by-one-service - working on this one and | 17:34 |
| danwent | we also need to get the copyright statement removed from the description | 17:34 |
| kirankv | and there is an active mail thread, it would help if you could review and leave comments on the whiteboard or send out a mail on openstack-dev list | 17:35 |
| Eustace | HP Legal is looking into this and give an update on the copyright issue | 17:35 |
| hartsocks | Good, that's a bit of a faux pas. | 17:35 |
| Eustace | We are waiting for HP Legal's feedback | 17:36 |
| danwent | Eustace: yeah, i think it sends a very bad message the community | 17:36 |
| danwent | content on launchpad is about sharing our ideas and contributing to the community. | 17:36 |
| danwent | copyright notices are well, kind of the opposite :) | 17:37 |
| danwent | what about in terms of who these BPs shoudl be assigned to? | 17:37 |
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| Divakar | is anybody following the "virt driver thread" conversion | 17:37 |
| hartsocks | #action Eustace will follow up with HP Legal about copyright | 17:37 |
| danwent | kirankv: are you actually going to be the one pushing the code here, and working through reviews for each of them? | 17:37 |
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| kirankv | yes for clusters, resource pools and templates related blueprint | 17:38 |
| russellb | yes please follow up, i'm not going to approve anything until it's resolved, because i don't think it's appropriate | 17:38 |
| ssshi | kirankv: you mentioned you'd post your code in 2 weeks in the summit video, any updates? | 17:39 |
| russellb | at least as far as the roadmap goes ... doesn't stop you from submitting code | 17:39 |
| kirankv | The fc driver needs further discussion | 17:39 |
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| danwent | kirankv: yes, i didn't see that blueprint in the list shawn posted. we should add it. hadn't been on my radar. | 17:39 |
| hartsocks | Can we also set a convention of putting "vmware" in the title or subject of blueprints so they are easy to find? | 17:40 |
| Divakar | russellb: with virt driver thread i see that the proxy model defined doesnt violate the compute constructs thats been followed with virt drivers | 17:40 |
| danwent | ah, i guess its on the wiki, just didn't have vmware in the title? | 17:41 |
| hartsocks | danwent: yep. | 17:41 |
| danwent | hartsocks: agreed. make searching much easier | 17:41 |
| danwent | rather than maintaining a list manually, you can just have a link that stays up to date. | 17:41 |
| Divakar | infact the proposed proxy model is leveraging all the existing openstack constructs and putting all the things working together | 17:41 |
| Divakar | so its bringing in the hypervisor manager in use seemlessly | 17:42 |
| Divakar | russelb: any comments on that? | 17:43 |
| hartsocks | #action update all vmware related blueprints to have the keyword vmware somewhere in their subject | 17:43 |
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| ssshi | I also just modified a few line to get it recognize hosts in a cluster | 17:43 |
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| hartsocks | ssshi: you are a hidden treasure! Seriously, let's get some of your work out there for people to see. | 17:44 |
| danwent | ssshi: would be good to identify what other issues you had to work around, as they are likely to be stumbling blocks for other people as well. | 17:45 |
| russellb | Divakar: as for the specific blueprint about nova-compute manaing N clusters instead of 1, that doesn't really change what's there today too much, so it's probably ok ... for now. What I'm leaning toward is a model for the future where vCenter support may not be in this layer at all, and it be implemented a different way. | 17:45 |
| ssshi | I'm still new to the overall architecture. Currently the blocker is how to import existing instances on the hypervisor to nova database. | 17:45 |
| russellb | ssshi: I would really rather that not be done | 17:46 |
| danwent | ssshi: yeah, that seems to be jumping off a cliff of complexity :) | 17:46 |
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| russellb | I think either nova manages something completely, or it doesn't manage it | 17:46 |
| russellb | i.e., nova started it in the first place | 17:47 |
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| Divakar | importing existing instances is a special use case which needs to be addressed if we are looking for bringing in cloud context to the existing datacenter | 17:48 |
| danwent | perhaps one could imagine an approach were you snapshot a traditional vm, create an image, then have nova "boot" the image, but my focus right now is just getting the basic "all nova" use cases working reliably. | 17:48 |
| ssshi | so here's our story: our ops team want to use our platform to manage existing vsphere production environment | 17:48 |
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| hartsocks | would a one-time import tool solve your problem? | 17:49 |
| danwent | btw, we only have 10 minutes left | 17:49 |
| russellb | this is basically anti-cloud talk :-) | 17:49 |
| hartsocks | Okay. | 17:49 |
| hartsocks | This is a "deep future" problem anyway. | 17:50 |
| hartsocks | Back on task... | 17:50 |
| danwent | so perhaps we should move this to a "futures" discussion, as I think its a pretty big item, and one that we won't get around to even looking at until th ebasics are more solid | 17:50 |
| hartsocks | #topic permanent meeting time | 17:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "permanent meeting time (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)" | 17:50 | |
| danwent | hartsocks: actually, i had one more BP | 17:50 |
| danwent | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/accurate-capacity-of-clusters-for-scheduler | 17:50 |
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| hartsocks | Okay... | 17:50 |
| russellb | hartsocks: you can do #undo | 17:51 |
| russellb | hartsocks: for the meeting minutes | 17:51 |
| hartsocks | #undo | 17:51 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Link object at 0x26e86d0> | 17:51 |
| hartsocks | russellb: thanks. | 17:51 |
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| russellb | hmmm ... seems that removed his link instead of the topic action ... might need to do it one more time | 17:51 |
| hartsocks | #undo | 17:51 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x26e8890> | 17:51 |
| danwent | for this issue, as i mentioned in the bugs section, is there a "bugfix" portion of this that we should split out, so we can potentially backport the change to grizzly. it seems like the blueprint as a whole has a broader scope with resource pools, etc. that would likely make a backport not make sense. | 17:51 |
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| russellb | hartsocks: good to go | 17:51 |
| russellb | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/accurate-capacity-of-clusters-for-scheduler | 17:52 |
| danwent | Divakar: is it correct to say that the existing cluster model needs a bug fix in terms of reporting capacity? | 17:52 |
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| danwent | but that the blueprint is proposing this fix, and additional logic around resource pools? | 17:52 |
| Divakar | i think to handle that it would be more than a bug fix | 17:53 |
| danwent | that is what i'm gathering from the blueprint text, but i'm not sure. | 17:53 |
| kirankv | the intent of the blueprint is to ensure that a instance gets created successfully based on the capacity reported by the compute node | 17:53 |
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| Divakar | we can have a followup discussion thread on this | 17:54 |
| danwent | ok, given that we are low on time, perhaps we take this offline | 17:54 |
| danwent | yeah | 17:54 |
| ssshi | does that blueprint mean we could query the vmware api directly for overall capacity, instead of adding all the instance information from database? | 17:54 |
| danwent | hartsocks: ok, let's talk about meeting time, then in open discussion i can talk about unit tests / ci tests | 17:54 |
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| hartsocks | The last topic is on meeting times for next week. Since we're low on time I'll just take a vote on keeping this time or not. If the vote is to change the time… then | 17:55 |
| hartsocks | I will have a discussion in the next meeting. | 17:55 |
| hartsocks | #topic next meeting time | 17:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "next meeting time (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)" | 17:55 | |
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| hartsocks | #vote keep the same time? | 17:55 |
| hartsocks | Respond Yes to keep the same time. | 17:55 |
| tjones | yes | 17:55 |
| ssshi | Yes | 17:55 |
| Divakar | Yes | 17:56 |
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| danwent | its good for me… i worry that the people it is bad for may not be here :) | 17:56 |
| danwent | ok, let's at least keep it the same for the time being | 17:56 |
| hartsocks | *lol* good point. | 17:56 |
| ssshi | it's 1 a.m. in china, might be a little late for people from japan | 17:56 |
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| cbananth | yes | 17:57 |
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| rsacharya | yes | 17:57 |
| danwent | ok, i need to run, but next week, we need to talk about unit tests + ci testing as well :) | 17:57 |
| Divakar | may be 2 or 3 hours earlier would be better | 17:57 |
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| ssshi | looking forward to see all you guys from VMware and HP :-) | 17:58 |
| hartsocks | Okay. So I'll hold the meeting at the same time next week, but I'll take a vote on the mailing list as well so that way people who aren't here can vote too. | 17:58 |
| danwent | ok, thanks folks. talk to you all next week! | 17:58 |
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| hartsocks | #endmeeting | 17:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 17:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 15 17:58:58 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/vmwareapi/2013/vmwareapi.2013-05-15-17.00.html | 17:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/vmwareapi/2013/vmwareapi.2013-05-15-17.00.txt | 17:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/vmwareapi/2013/vmwareapi.2013-05-15-17.00.log.html | 17:59 |
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| notmyname | swift meeting time | 19:00 |
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| notmyname | hello everyone | 19:00 |
| portante | hello | 19:00 |
| cschwede | hi | 19:00 |
| litong | hi, notmyname | 19:00 |
| chmouel | hi | 19:00 |
| notmyname | #startmeeting swift | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 15 19:01:01 2013 UTC. The chair is notmyname. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'swift' | 19:01 |
| notmyname | welcome to the swift meeting | 19:01 |
| notmyname | thanks for coming | 19:01 |
| creiht | may this be a swift meeting | 19:01 |
| portante | oy | 19:01 |
| notmyname | two major topics I want to cover today | 19:01 |
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| notmyname | 1) swift API | 19:01 |
| notmyname | 2) portante want's to talk about LFS | 19:01 |
| notmyname | then we can have open discussion, if necessary | 19:02 |
| notmyname | #topic Swift API | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Swift API (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:02 | |
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| notmyname | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Swift/API | 19:02 |
| notmyname | the goal for this is to define what the swift v1.0 is | 19:02 |
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| notmyname | with the goal of having a) a stating point for vx.y and b) testing if all these other systems that are coming out really support swift | 19:03 |
| notmyname | so there are notes on that wiki now | 19:03 |
| notmyname | and I'd like to have it finalize by the next meeting (ie 2 weeks from now) | 19:03 |
| davidhadas | Can you elaborate on the list of middlewar? | 19:03 |
| davidhadas | e | 19:04 |
| portante | and what does the "-" mean? | 19:04 |
| notmyname | - means NA | 19:04 |
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| notmyname | ie that piece of middleware doesn't define an external API | 19:04 |
| torgomatic | dash indicates non-user-facing middleware, so the question of "is it part of the API" does not apply | 19:04 |
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| notmyname | I want to be very clear that middleware does _not_ equal optional functionality. it's a particular way to implement features | 19:05 |
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| notmyname | and I think we should have the v1.0 API as a very low bar for all existing clusters and future clusters to meet | 19:05 |
| notmyname | ie, what's the smallest useful subset of swift functionality that we can define that doesn't exclude existing clusters today, but defines enough to mean something | 19:06 |
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| notmyname | later, we can have 1.1 or 2.0 or whatever, and I hope those (in addition to fixing things) will include more functionality | 19:06 |
| davidhadas | notmyname: so if its a way to implement functionality - than defining a middleware as "no" means it is not part of swift in 1.0? | 19:06 |
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| notmyname | davidhadas: it means that the functionality it defines isn't part of the 1.0 spec | 19:07 |
| portante | does having a v1.1 or v2.0 API mean that the URL will change then? | 19:07 |
| notmyname | similar to the features listed below | 19:07 |
| notmyname | portante: the version string in the path? yes, I'd think so | 19:07 |
| davidhadas | notmyname: so whats the benefit of taking important functions out? | 19:08 |
| zaitcev | I see that OPTIONS is supported while CORS is not. What good is OPTIONS by itself? | 19:08 |
| portante | In cases where auth is used, the storage urls are discovered | 19:08 |
| davidhadas | it just leads to client claiming to be 'compliant' when theyt have missing functions | 19:08 |
| notmyname | davidhadas: to make sure that existing clusters that have installed "Swift" can still be called swift | 19:08 |
| notmyname | davidhadas: eg we can't define staticweb as part of the spec in such a way that Rackspace cloud files can no longer be called swift because they use a CDN for public access | 19:09 |
| davidhadas | notmyname: here is my problem - I am fine with clusters implementing minimal function as needed - I am less fine with clients not supporting middleware | 19:09 |
| davidhadas | Otherwise we are going to have an impossible eco system | 19:10 |
| portante | davidhadas: what do you mean? | 19:10 |
| portante | not supporting middleware? | 19:10 |
| davidhadas | portante: if you define a stripped off API than you will have missing functions also in clients | 19:10 |
| portante | that a client breaks because we define a middleware package to be part of the API? | 19:10 |
| chmouel | i.e: not adding slo to swiftclient? | 19:10 |
| creiht | why does the api define what you can call swift? | 19:11 |
| notmyname | creiht: because there is no other way to do any sort of validation of it | 19:11 |
| zaitcev | Why is missing fuctions in clients a problem at all? Duplicity does not support tempauth, fine. Because it makes no sense to support tempauth in Duplicity! | 19:11 |
| davidhadas | Maybe 'compliant' clients should support a fuller set of options - and can detect what the cluster actually support with OPTIONS | 19:11 |
| creiht | why can't there be "optional" parts of api? | 19:11 |
| creiht | notmyname: those seem to be orthoginal | 19:12 |
| creiht | you define a set of api that swift *does* and *can* support | 19:12 |
| creiht | you define a separate set of tests to define what designates a "swift" installation which *may* include api requirements | 19:13 |
| notmyname | creiht: sure, I think there could be optional parts. but one way to do that is to talk about a 1.0 feature set and a 2.0 feature set | 19:13 |
| cschwede | creiht: i like that idea | 19:13 |
| davidhadas | creiht: so in order for an option to be supported you need it supported in both service and client - which means there will be a many different things called swift outthere which standartization suppose to remove | 19:13 |
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| notmyname | davidhadas: clients will end up supporting whatever the api is when the client is written | 19:14 |
| davidhadas | notmyname: right - so this is why I am suggesting to not define all the middleware (or most) as outside of 1.0 | 19:14 |
| notmyname | creiht: we can't test an installation beyond api compliance | 19:15 |
| davidhadas | since than they will not be supported by most | 19:15 |
| portante | It seems like what clients end up actually using is orthoginal to a service offers | 19:15 |
| creiht | and why is this our worry? | 19:15 |
| davidhadas | part of the Swift power is in the eco system it creates and clients play that part | 19:15 |
| creiht | I'm concerned about the api spec being muddied by compliance | 19:16 |
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| portante | creiht: can you say more? | 19:16 |
| notmyname | creiht: compliance is derived from a spec, not the other way around | 19:16 |
| portante | creiht: what do you mean by muddied? | 19:16 |
| davidhadas | We can have API 1.0 inclusive and indicate that some of the API is optional to the server but not the client | 19:16 |
| torgomatic | look, if I'm writing a client and I need to use e.g. formpost's functionality, I need to know if that functionality is part of Swift's core API or not | 19:16 |
| notmyname | davidhadas: I agree. my thought has been to keep 1.0 limited because we never started with a spec. we're only defining it after the fact here | 19:16 |
| torgomatic | if it's core, I'm just going to assume it's there and use it | 19:16 |
| torgomatic | if it's not core, I have to check and see if it's there | 19:17 |
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| torgomatic | in either case, I'm gonna write the client, but the included-in-API-ness of formpost affects how careful I have to be | 19:17 |
| torgomatic | so in that sense, having a defined list is really helpful | 19:17 |
| davidhadas | torgomatic: so as a client you may be requried to support it bu checking if this option is enabled | 19:17 |
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| torgomatic | davidhadas: yes. and that's fine by me. I just need to know if it's functionality that's always there or if I have to check for it | 19:18 |
| notmyname | the other concern I have is now that other storage systems are starting to claim "Swift api" support, we have no way to say if they are or aren't. and if a large company "supports swift" but breaks things or doesn't implement things, we suffer with no recourse | 19:18 |
| notmyname | davidhadas: torgomatic: similar to browser support for features | 19:18 |
| portante | so does the functional test suite go a long way to help define that compliance? | 19:18 |
| * creiht has a laggy connection | 19:18 | |
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| cschwede | notmyname: are there any plans implementing a client which is able to verify if a cluster is api-compliant? | 19:18 |
| notmyname | portante: I think so, yes | 19:19 |
| portante | we at red hat storage are planning on using it that way | 19:19 |
| ogelbukh | is it correct to say that 'yes' middlewares are in pipeline in default config file | 19:19 |
| creiht | notmyname: I could care less about htat... we also say we have an S3 api, but there is no compliance that determines that | 19:19 |
| portante | it being the functional test suite | 19:19 |
| ogelbukh | and 'no' middlewares are not? | 19:19 |
| zaitcev | Okay, I think I see what David is trying to say. However, it would really be helpful if he had 1 specific example. For example: all 1.0 clients are to use markers to list directories. | 19:19 |
| notmyname | cschwede: yes. the functional tests are a good start, but not sufficient. a separate test suite is important, and I've had some interest from people to write it | 19:19 |
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| creiht | I'm worried we are going to get too far in the weeds if we worry about compliance | 19:19 |
| notmyname | cschwede: but it will be a community effort | 19:19 |
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| creiht | we define the api | 19:19 |
| davidhadas | cschwede: formal certification can definatly be a way to go | 19:19 |
| creiht | it is what it is | 19:19 |
| torgomatic | ogelbukh: that'd probably be a good thing to do, but right now it's not the case | 19:20 |
| creiht | compliance can be worried about in another discussion, and is more of a board/TC issue then what we decide | 19:20 |
| creiht | who decides openstack compliance? | 19:20 |
| notmyname | ogelbukh: sort of, but that gets back as middleware as an implementation detail as opposed to a feature set | 19:20 |
| ogelbukh | torgomatic: that's how i understand that client need to check if specific call is supported in particular deployment ) | 19:20 |
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| notmyname | creiht: we set the api for swift, so ultimately it's us | 19:21 |
| ogelbukh | notmyname: ok, got it | 19:21 |
| portante | creiht: you mean to say that we define what the Swift API is, but we don't have to define how an implementation becomes compliant to it? | 19:21 |
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| portante | or is compliant to it? | 19:21 |
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| creiht | I'm just saying that they are totally different discussions | 19:21 |
| davidhadas | portante: lets not go there - not now :) | 19:21 |
| notmyname | the openstack foundation enforces the openstack trademark. as such, they want to be able to test for api compliance | 19:21 |
| creiht | an API is an API | 19:21 |
| creiht | no decision of the API spec should be driven by any notion of compliance | 19:22 |
| portante | creiht: agreed | 19:22 |
| notmyname | compliance derives from the API. agreed that it comes later. the important thing is setting 1.0 right now | 19:22 |
| creiht | and middleware currently is absolutely optional currently | 19:22 |
| portante | it does not seem that notmyname is saying that | 19:22 |
| davidhadas | I agree with creiht that wether we do compliance or not is a different Q | 19:22 |
| davidhadas | We nee dtoi discuss what is the content of the API first | 19:22 |
| creiht | otherwise we should have a static pipeline that auto-includes all the middleware | 19:22 |
| portante | I think we are all in agreement | 19:22 |
| creiht | we are talking about API then, why is complaince even coming up then? | 19:23 |
| davidhadas | creiht: optional is fine for the server side - lets not make it optional for client side also | 19:23 |
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| davidhadas | ( at least not all of it before considering each one) | 19:23 |
| notmyname | creiht: because as soon as we define an API, you have something to measure cloud files against | 19:23 |
| creiht | api definition has nothing to do with defining how the client uses it | 19:23 |
| * creiht sighs | 19:23 | |
| cschwede | what about including data security? ie 'a swift cluster is required to have at least X copies of every object'? | 19:24 |
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| notmyname | cschwede: I'd be opposed to that | 19:24 |
| creiht | I think this API stuff has goteen way too far in the weeds for me anyways | 19:24 |
| creiht | do what you will | 19:25 |
| dfg | we could jest make it 1 :) | 19:25 |
| torgomatic | cschwede: I wouldn't. API definitions are just about what the client can see, and the client can't see replicas | 19:25 |
| dfg | just | 19:25 |
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| creiht | I gotta run unfortunately | 19:25 |
| portante | creiht: perhaps worth have a further discussion another time then | 19:25 |
| notmyname | so, I'd like us to be able to vote on the api wiki page by next meeting | 19:25 |
| portante | it seems like notmyname and creiht actually are agreeing, but I could be wrong | 19:25 |
| swifterdarrell | I got the impression they weren't? | 19:26 |
| * swifterdarrell shrugs | 19:26 | |
| creiht | should we define how we specify the api on the wiki so that we can make sure we certify it as an API? :) | 19:26 |
| notmyname | portante: on the api part, yes :-) | 19:26 |
| swifterdarrell | hard to tell ;) | 19:26 |
| creiht | lol | 19:26 |
| * portante can't we all just get along | 19:26 | |
| shri | do we have examples of any middleware is not optional? If we're saying it is just a diff way of implementing, do we have two ways of doing something but one of them HAS to be in the pipeline? | 19:26 |
| cschwede | that's correct, but if i offer an something like "swift compliant cluster" I would expect a replicated cluster. Otherwise being API compliant can mean everything in the backend? | 19:26 |
| notmyname | cschwede: true | 19:27 |
| notmyname | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Swift/API | 19:27 |
| portante | yes, and I think we want that | 19:27 |
| creiht | the fact that we are still discussiing compliance shows that notmyname and myself do not agreed | 19:27 |
| * creiht is now out | 19:27 | |
| notmyname | portante: "we" == red hat ;-) | 19:27 |
| cschwede | ok | 19:28 |
| portante | yes, red hat wants the back end to not be defined by the API | 19:28 |
| portante | how replication is handled, etc. | 19:28 |
| portante | how many copies, level of robustness, etc. we would not want specified in the API | 19:28 |
| torgomatic | well, an API (IMHO) is a series of requests that I can make and responses that I can expect to receive | 19:28 |
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| ogelbukh | shri: healthcheck middleware, for example - if it's not there, the cluster is not API 1.0 | 19:28 |
| davidhadas | Lets agree on what is 1.0 and if exludes as much as possible or includes whats need to be supported by clinets - I think the latter + defining what is optional and how a client knows that it is optional | 19:28 |
| torgomatic | s/series/set/ | 19:29 |
| portante | the API should just be about how to interface to it | 19:29 |
| notmyname | shri: I'd argue that large objects should be part of the API, and at least static large objects are defined in middleware | 19:29 |
| portante | torgomatic: agreed | 19:29 |
| torgomatic | so I don't care if my data is stored on 3 separate disks, erasure-coded, chucked into memory, or written on basalt tablets by a room full of stonecarvers | 19:29 |
| cschwede | portante: that's ok for me, but i think we should add a note to the doc stating that this doesn't say anything about the backend implementation | 19:29 |
| * portante loud room | 19:29 | |
| notmyname | so right now we have the API docs that are sort of a mishmash of most things that swift's codebase can do | 19:29 |
| notmyname | cschwede: anyone can edit ;-) | 19:30 |
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| cschwede | notmyname: :) | 19:30 |
| notmyname | so it seems that perhaps the wiki page should be restructured slightly to avoid the "middleware" question | 19:31 |
| notmyname | and be for function-oriented | 19:31 |
| notmyname | anyone disagree? | 19:31 |
| * lpabon aye! | 19:31 | |
| shri | If there aren't too many, why not move mandatory middlewares into core and make it part of the API? The others remain as they are | 19:31 |
| lpabon | i mean, i agree, not disagree | 19:31 |
| notmyname | shri: middleware is an implementation detail | 19:31 |
| notmyname | ok | 19:32 |
| davidhadas_ | notmyname: definatly function | 19:32 |
| notmyname | #task reorganize the api wiki to be more function-oriented | 19:32 |
| notmyname | #action reorganize the api wiki to be more function-oriented | 19:32 |
| notmyname | that's it | 19:32 |
| cschwede | shri: depending on whom you ask there might be a lot of different mandatory middlewares | 19:32 |
| shri | notmyname, cschwede: I see | 19:33 |
| davidhadas_ | notmyname: and can we define it from the perspective of the client rather than the server? | 19:33 |
| notmyname | davidhadas_: yes, I think that's the end result (as torgomatic pointed out) | 19:33 |
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| notmyname | we can all edit the wiki, so please do so and we'll get it into shape in the next two weeks | 19:34 |
| notmyname | next topic | 19:34 |
| notmyname | #topic internal API (LFS) | 19:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "internal API (LFS) (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:34 | |
| notmyname | portante wanted to talk about this | 19:34 |
| portante | I posted a blue print: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/swift/+spec/diskfile-databasebroker-as-apis | 19:34 |
| notmyname | portante: the floow is yours | 19:34 |
| portante | zaitcev talked about the LFS patch at summit, and what came out of that was two levels of effort: | 19:35 |
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| portante | the first level being closer to what the original LFS patch is about, a proxy server internal layer that defines what controllers to use | 19:36 |
| portante | all in the proxy | 19:36 |
| portante | but if I understood all the discussion at summit, there was a groundswell of interest in defining a second layer of internal APIs for use | 19:36 |
| * notmyname likes that second part | 19:37 | |
| portante | They exist mostly already, but they are not agreed upon as an API | 19:37 |
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| notmyname | portante: so what are you looking for as a next step? | 19:37 |
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| portante | Today the are encoded as the DiskFile class in swift/obj/server.py, | 19:37 |
| notmyname | zaitcev: lpabon: ^^ | 19:37 |
| portante | and swift/common/db.py DatabaseBroker class for account and container | 19:38 |
| zaitcev | I figured that the "first level" seems too ambitious. We are already using what portante is talking about, just informally. And this "VFS for Swift" is going to take like a year or something. | 19:38 |
| zaitcev | you can see the size of it here https://github.com/zaitcev/swift-lfs | 19:38 |
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| notmyname | zaitcev: got a compare link? | 19:38 |
| zaitcev | You mean, a patch like git diff origin master? | 19:39 |
| portante | today, the gluster-swift integration monkey patches the DiskFile class with its own, and replaces the _get_broker(sp?) method for container and account to replace the database broker class | 19:39 |
| notmyname | portante: zaitcev: my understanding is that you want a formal declaration like "DiskFile and DBBroker are stable" or something like that? | 19:39 |
| portante | yes, and that the mechanism for substituting is acceptable | 19:39 |
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| zaitcev | Something like that but more realistic than that, I would think | 19:40 |
| zaitcev | Like a promise to be considerate when inevitable change rolls in. | 19:40 |
| notmyname | :-) | 19:40 |
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| portante | for example, instead of having _get_broker() method, define it to return a class of those above classes, drop the leading underscore and allow it to be overridden in a subclass | 19:41 |
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| portante | and add that same method to how the object server does it. | 19:41 |
| torgomatic | so have some spot where you can easily say "use this class, not that class"? | 19:41 |
| portante | the key question in my mind is: are those classes in a shape that we are willing to declare them an API? | 19:42 |
| notmyname | portante: I'd guess that we'd all be ok with refactors that allow easy replacement. and once we know there are people doing that, it becomes harder for us to change things | 19:42 |
| portante | yes | 19:42 |
| portante | yes | 19:42 |
| portante | to both of you | 19:42 |
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| portante | you can see our current code on github at: | 19:42 |
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| portante | https://github.com/gluster/gluster-swift | 19:43 |
| notmyname | I'm a little more hesitant to formally define an internal API in the same way the external api is defined, if only because we do feel that the swift implementation is important (but I do love you guys) | 19:43 |
| portante | we agree | 19:43 |
| notmyname | :-) yay | 19:43 |
| gholt | we? there's a lot of wees around | 19:44 |
| portante | we want to reuse as much code as possible | 19:44 |
| portante | we redhat | 19:44 |
| portante | sorry | 19:44 |
| davidhadas_ | I think there should be no problem with having a low level API to a device being completely open | 19:44 |
| gholt | I was teasing both you and and notmyname | 19:44 |
| notmyname | gholt: I'm assuming that "we the swift maintainers as a group" think that the particular implementation of swift in the openstack sourcetree is imortant | 19:44 |
| zaitcev | Oh now you've done it, Peter. It's Red Hat with a space. Please report to the branding team for additional training :-) | 19:45 |
| portante | ;) | 19:45 |
| davidhadas_ | A device in Swift doe snot have to be a "local physical disk" - and it is still Swift | 19:45 |
| davidhadas_ | But my worry is that I think it does require work to get the API to be generic and sutiable to become external | 19:45 |
| notmyname | I'd love to use such abstractions to swap out implementations better suited to particular filesystems or storage types | 19:46 |
| zaitcev | This is not good enough for UFO, unless you want to include those wonderful object storage devices like IBM HPSS. | 19:46 |
| davidhadas_ | notmyname: +1 | 19:46 |
| portante | zaitcev: what do you mean? | 19:46 |
| cschwede | notmyname: +1 | 19:47 |
| portante | notmyname: yes, so what do we feel comfortable enough with DiskFile and DatabaseBroker today? | 19:47 |
| portante | to declare them an API? | 19:47 |
| portante | I don't personally. | 19:47 |
| notmyname | portante: well, you're the first one making alternates :-) | 19:47 |
| torgomatic | I'd like to see a little more refactoring first. | 19:47 |
| portante | I believe we need to smooth out the interfaces fisxrst | 19:47 |
| portante | agreed | 19:47 |
| zaitcev | Right. | 19:47 |
| portante | the biggest thing is to prevent the caller from having to know how a class works internally | 19:48 |
| torgomatic | specifically, I want data to go like this: (http/wsgi) <---> ObjectController <---> python datastructures in memory <---> DiskFile <---> (disk) | 19:48 |
| davidhadas_ | notmyname: The Q is if the current call signitures of DiskFile is the one we should use - I assume it may not be... and we would need to make it into an external API by thinking what is the right API | 19:48 |
| torgomatic | that may be just me, though | 19:48 |
| notmyname | davidhadas_: seems like we still need some adjustment | 19:49 |
| portante | for example, the work to push the fd down into the DiskFile class | 19:49 |
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| portante | currently a work in progress right now | 19:49 |
| zaitcev | that's done is it not | 19:49 |
| portante | almost | 19:50 |
| portante | on the database broker side, the work that davidhaddas_ and zaitcev are doing with db_file field exposed would also be useful to cap off | 19:51 |
| davidhadas_ | So there seem to be partial agreement taht can help us go some way - to move from the current DiskFile API to a 'proper' one that can be used as an external one. And we need to do thae same for DBs | 19:51 |
| portante | torgomatic: regarding python datastructures in memory, wouldn't we want to allow a way to pull data off the wire and put in on disk with as few memory copies as possible? | 19:51 |
| notmyname | cool. portante, zaitcev, do you think you'll be able to have it done in the next 2 weeks (ie next meeting)? | 19:52 |
| portante | perhaps | 19:52 |
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| portante | I have been working towards that, and hope to do so | 19:52 |
| torgomatic | portante: well, yes. I'm not saying slurp everything, just that there's the handoff point | 19:52 |
| portante | torgomatic: great | 19:52 |
| gholt | I'm pretty sure very little can get merged in two weeks. ;P | 19:52 |
| torgomatic | e.g. ObjectController reads a chunk, passes it to DiskFile for writing, lather-rinse-repeat | 19:52 |
| notmyname | gholt: :-) | 19:53 |
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| gholt | To the point of initial review, yes. done? nope | 19:53 |
| portante | what I have been looking at right now as how DiskFile is constructed and where its input values come from, and where else they are used | 19:53 |
| notmyname | 7 minutes left | 19:53 |
| portante | I think we are good on this topic | 19:53 |
| notmyname | cool | 19:54 |
| portante | tentative approval for the work, we'll check back in two weeeks | 19:54 |
| portante | minus one e | 19:54 |
| notmyname | great :-) | 19:54 |
| notmyname | ok, thanks for your time everyone | 19:54 |
| notmyname | I think we're done. anyone have anything for 5 minutes? | 19:55 |
| notmyname | ok | 19:55 |
| notmyname | #endmeeting | 19:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 19:55 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 15 19:55:24 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:55 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2013/swift.2013-05-15-19.01.html | 19:55 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2013/swift.2013-05-15-19.01.txt | 19:55 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2013/swift.2013-05-15-19.01.log.html | 19:55 |
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| shardy | #startmeeting heat | 20:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 15 20:00:04 2013 UTC. The chair is shardy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'heat' | 20:00 |
| shardy | #topic rollcall | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:00 | |
| stevebaker_ | holla | 20:00 |
| randallburt | hello all | 20:00 |
| zaneb | howdy | 20:00 |
| pfreund | hi | 20:00 |
| hanney | hi all | 20:00 |
| shardy | shardy here | 20:00 |
| therve | Hi! | 20:00 |
| SpamapS | o/ | 20:00 |
| sdake | o/ | 20:00 |
| alexheneveld | hello | 20:00 |
| jpeeler | hey | 20:00 |
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| shardy | asalkeld around? | 20:01 |
| shardy | #topic Review last week's actions | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review last week's actions (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:01 | |
| asalkeld | hi | 20:01 |
| asalkeld | sorry bit late | 20:01 |
| shardy | hey asalkeld | 20:02 |
| wirehead_ | heya | 20:02 |
| shardy | #info stevebaker to send ML email re backwards-compatibility | 20:02 |
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| shardy | stevebaker: did that happen? | 20:02 |
| stevebaker_ | It appears that I haven't written that email yet. Please add it as an action again | 20:02 |
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| shardy | Ok, np | 20:02 |
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| shardy | #action stevebaker stevebaker to send ML email re backwards-compatibility | 20:02 |
| shardy | #info all to look at dsl examples and provide feedback | 20:03 |
| randallburt | that's been done some, but more review would be greatly appreciated. | 20:03 |
| shardy | So I know the DSL discussions are ongoing, but anyone got any specific comments or requests in that area? | 20:03 |
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| wirehead_ | yeah, I've not made any comments, but I've been looking at 'em and pondering | 20:03 |
| randallburt | we also had a discussion today about merging some proposals and pushing hard on getting a "fina" single wordpress template sorted. | 20:03 |
| shardy | I've agreed to post a PoC patch showing how we could possibly do an engine level translation from the proposed HOT format to the internal model | 20:04 |
| randallburt | maybe an action for me and Thomas to get that done soonest? | 20:04 |
| shardy | I'll post a draft/wip patch so we can all comment | 20:04 |
| shardy | hopefully by next week | 20:04 |
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| shardy | #action shardy PoC HOT patch | 20:05 |
| randallburt | shardy: I'm still green in that area, but let me know how/if I can help | 20:05 |
| shardy | and as randallburt said, we're pushing for a consensus on a basic template to test with | 20:05 |
| zaneb | is there a reason we're trying to adapt our internal model to the template format and not the other way around? | 20:05 |
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| shardy | #action randallburt, tspatzier provide converged DSL/HOT example | 20:06 |
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| SpamapS | zaneb: because our current internal model lacks some capabilities that are desired | 20:06 |
| asalkeld | also it's based on aws | 20:07 |
| randallburt | zaneb: and we hope it will be additive and (relatively) transparent to the CFN | 20:07 |
| shardy | zaneb: that's a good question - my understanding is we're trying to identify the gaps in the internal model | 20:07 |
| zaneb | SpamapS: oh, I know that | 20:07 |
| zaneb | randallburt: +1 | 20:07 |
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| randallburt | *hope* ;) | 20:07 |
| SpamapS | I mostly see there just being some new internal resources and a few things abstracted so that both cfn and HOT can use them in slightly different ways. | 20:07 |
| alexheneveld | ideally CFN can inject into HOT but HOT will be easier to use and more powerful | 20:07 |
| shardy | zaneb: I see the template-syntax thing as being a byproduct of the process, really it's a way for us to hack on the abstractions IMO | 20:08 |
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| tspatzier | zaneb: I think the plan would not be to change the internal model radically for this first HOT patch, but let it evolve over time, basically to enrich it for new features as randallburt and SpamapS said | 20:08 |
| zaneb | tspatzier: agree with that | 20:08 |
| shardy | Yep, and to figure out where/how we can do that in a low-risk way | 20:08 |
| zaneb | just concerned that starting top-down with the format and then trying to squeeze that into an implementation is making life hard for ourselves | 20:09 |
| shardy | which is the point of us starting to look at how we can do that with some code | 20:09 |
| SpamapS | If there's something to spend time on now, it is making sure HOT is forward-flexible so whatever we support in the first release we can keep supporting for a long time. | 20:09 |
| alexheneveld | composability and substitutability let people do cool things, and safe if we can do it incrementally which is the plan | 20:09 |
| randallburt | zaneb: yeah, why we hope to put some code to it soonest | 20:09 |
| shardy | zaneb: I'm hoping when we start actually looking at code the process may reverse somewhat | 20:09 |
| zaneb | ok | 20:09 |
| zaneb | moving on | 20:09 |
| m4dcoder | is there a place that describe this HOT format for new folks like me to catch up? | 20:10 |
| tspatzier | I think getting something concrete started comming from bottom up can help to shape the DSL instead of just doing conceptual work for too long | 20:10 |
| shardy | ie we'll figure out the gaps, add stuff, then work out a sane way to expose it via templates | 20:10 |
| shardy | #link https://review.openstack.org/28598 | 20:10 |
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| shardy | m4dcoder: ^^ | 20:10 |
| randallburt | m4dcoder: not yet, but would be a good idea as we validate the simple templates before moving on to more complex stuffs | 20:10 |
| shardy | ok, lets move on shall we? | 20:11 |
| randallburt | +q | 20:11 |
| shardy | #topic Reorganize resources into heat/engine/resources/OS, heat/engine/resources/AWS | 20:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Reorganize resources into heat/engine/resources/OS, heat/engine/resources/AWS (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:11 | |
| randallburt | or 1 rather | 20:11 |
| sdake | this came out of a irc chat spamaps and I had last week | 20:11 |
| shardy | Sounds like a good idea | 20:11 |
| randallburt | is this the "Taking the AWS out of Heat"? | 20:12 |
| shardy | zaneb: will it be a problem for the plugin code? | 20:12 |
| SpamapS | Indeed | 20:12 |
| zaneb | one issue with this | 20:12 |
| zaneb | some of the code is shared | 20:12 |
| stevebaker_ | I think that is a great idea, but how to handle volume.py, which now has both AWS::EC2::Volume and native cinder resource type? | 20:12 |
| SpamapS | I was thinking there would also be a common? | 20:12 |
| zaneb | e.g. CinderVolume inherits from Volume (the AWS one) | 20:12 |
| sdake | probably break them up | 20:12 |
| therve | zaneb, I started working on changing that | 20:12 |
| shardy | Yeah, we should still have common base classes where it makes sense to, or modify the AWS resources to inherit and override stuff from the native ones | 20:13 |
| zaneb | we could have a common base or something | 20:13 |
| therve | Creating utility functions instead of inheritance | 20:13 |
| sdake | so spamaps and I had this discussion about inheritance as well | 20:13 |
| therve | It adds a tiny bit of duplication that we can leave with I think | 20:13 |
| asalkeld | Is this bringing any value? | 20:13 |
| zaneb | asalkeld: +1 exactly | 20:13 |
| sdake | and we both agreed we dislike that model :) which is why this was added to the agenda so people could vote on whether we really want inheritance in resources or not | 20:13 |
| SpamapS | Yes it brings the ability to turn off AWS | 20:14 |
| asalkeld | isn't there heaps of bp we could be working on? | 20:14 |
| SpamapS | which is desired by deployers | 20:14 |
| stevebaker_ | can we have pythonic package names? heat.engine.resources.aws.ec2.volume | 20:14 |
| SpamapS | stevebaker_: +1 | 20:14 |
| zaneb | SpamapS: how? by deleting all the python files? | 20:14 |
| asalkeld | filter by not 'AWS::' | 20:14 |
| zaneb | asalkeld: yes, exactly | 20:14 |
| sdake | asalkeld if there are bps you want to work on work on them | 20:14 |
| SpamapS | Thats a fair point. | 20:14 |
| zaneb | the way to turn off aws is to filter out all plugins that start with AWS:: at registration time | 20:14 |
| sdake | this came out of the original native server resource | 20:15 |
| asalkeld | so but it is not strictly neccessary | 20:15 |
| sdake | which lists inheritence as a goal | 20:15 |
| asalkeld | (move the code about) | 20:15 |
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| stevebaker_ | is anybody against reorganizing python classes to match resource type names? | 20:16 |
| SpamapS | Hm | 20:16 |
| zaneb | filter = 1 line in config file, vs. selectively installing modules | 20:16 |
| sdake | zaneb those are orthogonal | 20:16 |
| shardy | I think there are advantages long term (assuming we're aiming to have a full set of native resources) in having the AWS ones inherit/share implementation | 20:16 |
| SpamapS | zaneb: I didn't mean by selectively installing modules, I was more thinking of abstraction to make it clear where AWS specific things were happening. | 20:16 |
| sdake | zaneb: you could still install AWS resources, just not enable them | 20:17 |
| SpamapS | zaneb: but the filter is superior, so I like that better. | 20:17 |
| stevebaker_ | shardy: they could do that and still be in separate files though | 20:17 |
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| sdake | clearly we want to filter, but also putting them in different places makes the code more sanitary | 20:17 |
| shardy | stevebaker_: Yes, agreed | 20:17 |
| SpamapS | I am -1 on inheriting from native resources being the way they work, but +1 for filtering. | 20:17 |
| shardy | I guess this is really part of the abstract-aws BP? | 20:17 |
| shardy | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/abstract-aws | 20:18 |
| zaneb | I'm not against better code organisation | 20:18 |
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| zaneb | but as a development priority... it isn't even on the list | 20:18 |
| sdake | i am -1 on inheriting too - inheritance evil | 20:18 |
| SpamapS | The point is simply to be able to document/use/deploy Heat w/o the AWS | 20:18 |
| stevebaker_ | anyone volunteering for the reorg? | 20:18 |
| sdake | zaneb it is in grizzly-2 | 20:18 |
| SpamapS | abstract-aws doesn't mean "in the code abstract it" it means "in the project, abstract it" | 20:18 |
| shardy | zaneb: I agree, low priority, but if someone wants to contribute the patch, fine | 20:18 |
| sdake | i just added it because we had a discussion on irc about it | 20:18 |
| zaneb | sdake: it isn't on *my* list ;) | 20:19 |
| SpamapS | zaneb: its on mine | 20:19 |
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| SpamapS | and by "it" I mean making clear the line between AWS and Heat | 20:19 |
| sdake | one of the resource types was on mine as well | 20:19 |
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| SpamapS | the "how" of that is not all that important to me. | 20:20 |
| SpamapS | but I appreciate you guys setting me on a path toward filter vs. reorg code base. :) | 20:20 |
| sdake | here is another way to frame the question - what is the harm of putting the aws stuff in one dir and the os stuff in another dir | 20:20 |
| SpamapS | sdake: no harm, but what is the benefit? My "it helps you turn AWS off" argument doesn't really work :p | 20:21 |
| shardy | sdake: I guess the question is more, is it worth the effort involved | 20:21 |
| asalkeld | shardy, +1 | 20:21 |
| sdake | it helps devs understand what is what - readability issue | 20:21 |
| stevebaker_ | it makes it obvious where to find the code for a resource type | 20:21 |
| asalkeld | also code churn | 20:21 |
| sdake | otherwise the code is spread all over the place | 20:21 |
| stevebaker_ | which currently it is not (obvious) | 20:21 |
| zaneb | sdake: <zaneb> I'm not against better code organisation | 20:21 |
| zaneb | SpamapS: +1 | 20:22 |
| shardy | sdake: Ok, cool, seems like nobody's against the reorg, just nobody's particulary keen to do it themselves ;) | 20:22 |
| sdake | in my mind its not about turning aws off and on, its about helping developers come up to speed on the code base and add more native resource types | 20:22 |
| SpamapS | makes sense | 20:23 |
| alexheneveld | sdake: that's worth a lot | 20:23 |
| stevebaker_ | maybe this is something we do immediately after havana-1 (or another release) | 20:23 |
| sdake | i think spamaps _was_ keen :) | 20:23 |
| sdake | stevebaker_ +1 | 20:24 |
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| stevebaker_ | to reduce the disruption from code churn | 20:24 |
| SpamapS | Might still get motivated. | 20:24 |
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| shardy | Ok, agree lets leave this until after h-1 and see if anyone wants to post a patch | 20:24 |
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| shardy | can be under abstract-aws BP since we have separate BPs for each native resource? | 20:25 |
| sdake | shardy when is h1? 3 weeks? | 20:25 |
| shardy | two weeks | 20:25 |
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| zaneb | s/a patch/a lot of small patches/ please | 20:25 |
| jpeeler | May 30 - havana-1 | 20:25 |
| shardy | So if anyone has anything they thing is/isn't going to land, please move the milestone target in LP :) | 20:25 |
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| shardy | in particular jpeeler and stevebaker_ you have a lot of bugs so please bump those you think will slip | 20:26 |
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| * shardy should've created an agenda item for this..oops | 20:26 | |
| stevebaker_ | I'll look | 20:26 |
| shardy | Anyway, shall we move on? | 20:26 |
| jpeeler | shardy: is there a particular commit date so to speak? | 20:26 |
| shardy | jpeeler: well bear in mind reviews have been slow lately so I'd say anything not posted by the end of next week will probably slip, but we'll see how it goes I guess | 20:27 |
| shardy | #topic heat-templates target audience | 20:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "heat-templates target audience (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:29 | |
| shardy | So this was prompted by a discussion with pfreund in #heat | 20:29 |
| pfreund | yes | 20:29 |
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| shardy | wanted to get peoples ideas about the targe audience of heat-templates, ie should it be purely for heat examples, or should there be a (probably unsupported) "contrib" area or something | 20:30 |
| SpamapS | been meaning to reply to the thread... | 20:30 |
| pfreund | I wrote an e-mail in openstack-dev list | 20:30 |
| shardy | ie to try to get a community of testers and template authors interested in heat | 20:30 |
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| SpamapS | I think we should make it really obvious that the heat-templates repo exists.. | 20:30 |
| SpamapS | and tell all users about it.. | 20:30 |
| SpamapS | but stay out of defining policy for it just yet | 20:31 |
| shardy | One concern I have is the idea that we provide supported "production ready" templates, which I think we should not | 20:31 |
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| shardy | but encouraging reuse and collaboration has to be good right? | 20:31 |
| stevebaker_ | My thoughts on this is that each top-level directory of heat-templates should have a readme describing what the target audience for those templates should be. for cfn/ the audience is something like "people exploring heat's capabilities" | 20:31 |
| therve | shardy, Why not? | 20:31 |
| shardy | any thoughts? | 20:31 |
| SpamapS | shardy: right, I think we'll get to a place where having a collection of those is a good thing, but we shouldn't do it yet. | 20:31 |
| shardy | therve: because it would involve effort that we as a team cannot currently afford | 20:31 |
| jpeeler | production templates could have security implication responsibilites we don't want | 20:32 |
| SpamapS | You need a whole community of motivated users to make such a collection work. | 20:32 |
| shardy | jpeeler: agreed | 20:32 |
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| randallburt | shardy: I disagree a bit in that I don't think its unreasonable to expect that the templates we use for validating heat will deploy on a stock install of the service | 20:32 |
| therve | shardy, OK, it's not a disagreement, just a resource issue | 20:32 |
| shardy | SpamapS: yep, I guess the question I'm asking is is heat-templates the place for that collection? | 20:32 |
| shardy | randallburt: the "test/demo/validation" templates would absolutely be expected to work | 20:33 |
| asalkeld | yea, so don't discourage production templates, just have a way of saying if each template is example/poc/whatever | 20:33 |
| stevebaker_ | if someone turns up with a production template and wants to maintain it in heat-templates I think we should let them | 20:33 |
| shardy | this is about, should we allow loads of user templates, ie too many to reasonably test and maintain | 20:33 |
| randallburt | asalkeld exactly | 20:33 |
| SpamapS | shardy: probably not. To be really scalable the collection needs to be more distributed than a single git repo can do. | 20:33 |
| alexheneveld | #idea let these live in people's githubs. we keep a wiki page linking to them. | 20:33 |
| shardy | And also should we talke responsibility for something people will use in production | 20:34 |
| zaneb | therve: it's a question of, "do we want to be responsible for supporting this?" | 20:34 |
| therve | zaneb, I see. | 20:34 |
| therve | I guess we can wait for the problem to come up :) | 20:34 |
| zaneb | therve: and the answer is "oh, G*d no" | 20:34 |
| pfreund | When I said production ready, it was more meaning "templates who can be copied for real production template", still has an example, but not only a functionnality per template | 20:34 |
| shardy | zaneb: lol, exaaactly ;D | 20:34 |
| pfreund | still as | 20:34 |
| SpamapS | Users who want to reduce duplication of effort as Heat gains adoption will probably want to be responsible for it. | 20:34 |
| m4dcoder | i think heat-templates should be for development/validation purposes of hea. there should be a separate public template catalog for the communities to contribute their templates. | 20:35 |
| stevebaker_ | zaneb: but hosting somebody's templates doesn't necessarily imply that we're supporting them | 20:35 |
| therve | zaneb, Sure, but if someone comes tomorrow and say "Here's a great template to deploy X", there is no reason to refuse it. | 20:35 |
| zaneb | right, and that's totally cool | 20:35 |
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| alexheneveld | therve: and we should point to it but not own/maintain it | 20:35 |
| pfreund | stevebaker_, +1 | 20:35 |
| asalkeld | one reason not to do it, is the review burden | 20:35 |
| therve | There is no warranty of any kind for sure | 20:35 |
| randallburt | therve: as long as they also say "and I'll fix the bugs reported against it…" | 20:35 |
| shardy | stevebaker_, therve: right, provided we have a way of distinguishing supported from unsupported (or at least "less supported" | 20:36 |
| therve | asalkeld, I think it's a good problem to have :) | 20:36 |
| shardy | asalkeld: that is true, we've been struggling with that lately | 20:36 |
| stevebaker_ | shardy: that could be stated explicitly in the readme | 20:36 |
| jpeeler | we'd need to make it clear in each template explicitly as well i think | 20:37 |
| zaneb | we could require people to put the name of the author in the template | 20:37 |
| shardy | Ok, well there's a thread on openstack-dev "Introducing heat-templates", feel free to weigh in there | 20:37 |
| stevebaker_ | just as well yaml supports comments :) | 20:38 |
| zaneb | stevebaker_: yah, I can't actually believe aws used a format without them | 20:38 |
| alexheneveld | stevebaker_: absolutely single biggest advantage over json | 20:38 |
| sdake_ | who needs comments anyways ;) | 20:38 |
| shardy | Should we move on and let the discussion continue on the ML? | 20:39 |
| alexheneveld | re catalog -- the way jekyll (markdown) does it is nice -- wiki-style list people can update at the bottom of http://jekyllrb.com/docs/plugins/ -- quality and discussion is at the bottom | 20:39 |
| shardy | #topic Open discussion | 20:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:39 | |
| stevebaker_ | shardy: oi, one more item | 20:39 |
| shardy | stevebaker_: there is? | 20:40 |
| * shardy refreshes his browser | 20:40 | |
| shardy | #undo | 20:40 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x26f8a10> | 20:40 |
| shardy | #topic Linking to downloadable tripleo built images | 20:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Linking to downloadable tripleo built images (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:40 | |
| stevebaker_ | so tripleo are autobuilding some heat-cfntools enabled images | 20:41 |
| stevebaker_ | http://jenkins.tripleo.org:8080/job/autobuilt-images/elements=ubuntu%20vm%20heat-cfntools/ | 20:41 |
| stevebaker_ | http://jenkins.tripleo.org:8080/job/autobuilt-images/elements=fedora%20vm%20heat-cfntools/ | 20:41 |
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| stevebaker_ | which I've been using for my tempest development | 20:41 |
| SpamapS | Yes plesae try them! :) | 20:41 |
| shardy | #link http://jenkins.tripleo.org:8080/job/autobuilt-images/elements=fedora%20vm%20heat-cfntools | 20:41 |
| asalkeld | might need a version number in the link | 20:42 |
| stevebaker_ | ubuntu one is pretty good, fedora one has a bunch of pending reviews and might need a bit for fixing | 20:42 |
| SpamapS | asalkeld: ? | 20:42 |
| asalkeld | elements=fedora18x86_64 | 20:42 |
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| asalkeld | not just fedora | 20:42 |
| stevebaker_ | but when fedora is ready I'd like to propose that switch all links to prebuilt images to these ones | 20:42 |
| SpamapS | asalkeld: we use the latest always :) | 20:42 |
| asalkeld | +1 on the idea | 20:42 |
| hanney | +1 | 20:43 |
| shardy | stevebaker_: Who will maintain them? | 20:43 |
| SpamapS | about to switch ubuntu to 13.04 | 20:43 |
| shardy | +1 too btw ;) | 20:43 |
| SpamapS | but would be more than happy to accept changes to have multiple versions if thats what is needed | 20:43 |
| stevebaker_ | shardy: jenkins will ;) | 20:43 |
| shardy | anything that gets us away from having to maintain an image repo gets my +100 provided the alternative images work | 20:43 |
| zaneb | stevebaker_: that is the correct answer :) | 20:43 |
| stevebaker_ | seriously, if they're part of tempest gating we will all be maintaining them on every commit | 20:44 |
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| stevebaker_ | ...however | 20:44 |
| SpamapS | Those images are built from github.com/stackforge/diskimage-builder and github.com/stackforge/tripleo-image-elements | 20:44 |
| shardy | stevebaker_: I mean who will own the template definitions etc, where are they, gotta link? | 20:44 |
| shardy | SpamapS: pre-empted my question :D | 20:44 |
| stevebaker_ | today I got this comment on a review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/28650/ | 20:44 |
| stevebaker_ | shardy: tripleo-image-elements heat-cfntools is our element | 20:45 |
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| stevebaker_ | so eventually this image building will result in some blessed images being hosted from stack.openstack.org | 20:45 |
| shardy | stevebaker_: Ok, sounds good :) | 20:46 |
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| SpamapS | Right, these images will be used not only in gating tempest/heat, but hopefully in the tripleo gate for all of openstack.. eventually | 20:46 |
| * shardy will not miss watching oz fail after running for 10mins | 20:46 | |
| stevebaker_ | until that happens I am suggesting: | 20:46 |
| stevebaker_ | 1. link to jenkins.tripleo.org as soon as the fedora image is good enough (and delete our old prebuilt images) | 20:46 |
| stevebaker_ | 2. link to stack.openstack.org when that happens | 20:46 |
| shardy | Can we maintain multiple fedora versions? That link doesn't specify what Fedora version? | 20:47 |
| shardy | ie atm F17 works with heat but F18 doesn't (unless you use updates-testing cloud-init which I pushed) | 20:48 |
| sdake_ | how about epel and scientific linux as well? | 20:48 |
| SpamapS | Its F18 | 20:48 |
| shardy | so I think maintaining images for all non-eol versions of platforms we care about would be good | 20:48 |
| stevebaker_ | I think tripleo are receptive to building different images, but I don't know what the upper limit is ;) | 20:48 |
| SpamapS | "patches accepted" | 20:48 |
| shardy | s/we/we or our users/ | 20:48 |
| SpamapS | DIB_CLOUD_IMAGES=${DIB_CLOUD_IMAGES:-http://mattdm.fedorapeople.org/cloud-images/} | 20:49 |
| SpamapS | DIB_RELEASE=${DIB_RELEASE:-Fedora18} | 20:49 |
| shardy | SpamapS: as mentioned above, F18 is broken until my cloud-init update gets promoted from updates-testing | 20:49 |
| SpamapS | those both can be overriden so.. bring it on. :) | 20:49 |
| stevebaker_ | shardy: maybe a fedora-updates-testing dib element is needed | 20:49 |
| shardy | so we need a F17 version as well, and every release, there's always overlap while we work through the latest round of upgrade-brokenness | 20:50 |
| SpamapS | unfortunately, mattdm does not make F17 images | 20:50 |
| SpamapS | so... | 20:50 |
| stevebaker_ | and i386 and x64 versions of each... | 20:50 |
| shardy | stevebaker_: I think we need images available for all non-eol versions, but an updates-testing image could also be good I guess | 20:50 |
| * shardy is a bit scared of updates-testing in general | 20:50 | |
| SpamapS | don't be scared its just crack | 20:51 |
| sdake_ | dont run updates testing in images | 20:51 |
| sdake_ | it breaks things badly | 20:51 |
| stevebaker_ | SpamapS: fyi fedora 19 will have an official openstack image download | 20:51 |
| sdake_ | trust me been there done that | 20:51 |
| SpamapS | stevebaker_: \o/ | 20:51 |
| shardy | stevebaker_: link? and will it have heat-cfntools? | 20:51 |
| SpamapS | Ok well please do discuss needs in #tripleo and we have a bug tracker too launchpad.net/diskimage-builder | 20:52 |
| SpamapS | I had one other topic that I wanted to bring up | 20:52 |
| shardy | SpamapS: OK, other than the single-fedora-version this all sounds good | 20:52 |
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| m4dcoder | shardy: regarding bp on UpdateStake support for ScalingPolicy, what's the expected behavior? Any example? Is it just handling the update of a ScalingPolicy resource? I see there's update for cloud watch alarm and ASG already. | 20:52 |
| shardy | anyone got anything else, 8mins left | 20:52 |
| stevebaker_ | https://github.com/stackforge/tripleo-image-elements | 20:52 |
| stevebaker_ | https://github.com/stackforge/diskimage-builder | 20:52 |
| SpamapS | Namely that Heat needs to be more responsive to the OpenStack underneath it. | 20:52 |
| shardy | m4dcoder: shall we discuss that in #heat after the meeting? | 20:53 |
| m4dcoder | ok | 20:53 |
| SpamapS | I wanted to float the idea that "UpdateStack" would re-create any underlying resources that have gone missing | 20:53 |
| shardy | SpamapS: out of interest, why would they go missing? | 20:53 |
| SpamapS | meaning, if I nova delete an instance, and then UpdateStack comes along and sees that instance id is gone.. it will create a new instance. | 20:53 |
| SpamapS | shardy: out of band reasons | 20:54 |
| shardy | out-of-control admins ;) | 20:54 |
| therve | I'm not sure UpdateStack is the proper place for this | 20:54 |
| SpamapS | So for instance lets say during the initial bring up the instance was stuck | 20:54 |
| therve | It seems it would be desirable to maintain the state all the time. | 20:54 |
| SpamapS | bad mirror, or bad compute host.. basically "s*** happens" | 20:55 |
| shardy | therve: I agree, we can't be expected to recover from all insane out-of-band hackery which may happen | 20:55 |
| SpamapS | actually | 20:55 |
| SpamapS | yes we can | 20:55 |
| shardy | hmmm | 20:55 |
| SpamapS | I don't see why Heat should be completely rigid | 20:56 |
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| therve | shardy, Well I'm saying we should restart the instance. Just not in UpdateStack | 20:56 |
| shardy | SpamapS: sounds worthy of discussion anyway - care to raise a BP? I know we have a bug about restarting a failed update, but this is something different | 20:56 |
| SpamapS | shardy: the alternative is I have to rename the resource, so that heat will re-create it. | 20:56 |
| stevebaker_ | related to this, I've been thinking about a stack abandon/adopt | 20:56 |
| shardy | therve: we already can via the IHA mechanism | 20:56 |
| stevebaker_ | abandon is like a stack delete which doesn't delete the resources | 20:56 |
| SpamapS | shardy: its all going to the problem of resiliency to external factors, and yes I think a BP is in order. :-P | 20:56 |
| * therve looks it up | 20:57 | |
| SpamapS | stevebaker_: yeah I like that idea, that would also work | 20:57 |
| zaneb | stevebaker_: you can already set a DeletionPolicy on resources | 20:57 |
| stevebaker_ | adopt will recreate a stack based on existing (possibly abandoned) resources | 20:57 |
| SpamapS | ok I'll write up a formal proposal | 20:57 |
| SpamapS | have already started working on some poc patches | 20:57 |
| shardy | SpamapS: I'm in favor of resiliency, I just think it should be something you explicitly enable rather than a behind-the-scenes feature of UpdateStack, cos it's actually a recovery action | 20:57 |
| alexheneveld | SpamapS: UpdateStack = neat idea -- would having a way to write idempotent templates achieve the same end ? | 20:57 |
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| shardy | SpamapS: IMO it actually fits a heat stack create retry pattern better, where you can re-create a stack based on the current definition | 20:58 |
| SpamapS | alexheneveld: thats just the thing.. I think the current templates should be idempotent. :) | 20:58 |
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| shardy | but we're nearly out of time, so can followup elsewhere.. | 20:59 |
| SpamapS | agreed | 20:59 |
| alexheneveld | well sometimes i want 2 wordpresses :) | 20:59 |
| shardy | #endmeeting | 20:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 20:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 15 20:59:12 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2013/heat.2013-05-15-20.00.html | 20:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2013/heat.2013-05-15-20.00.txt | 20:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2013/heat.2013-05-15-20.00.log.html | 20:59 |
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