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| jgriffith | #startmeeting | 16:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | jgriffith: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee' | 16:00 |
| jgriffith | #startmeeting cinder | 16:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 22 16:01:03 2012 UTC. The chair is jgriffith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:01 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'cinder' | 16:01 |
| jgriffith | hey everyone! | 16:01 |
| thingee_zz | o/ | 16:01 |
| rturk_ | hello | 16:01 |
| *** thingee_zz is now known as thingee | 16:01 | |
| bswartz | hi | 16:01 |
| winston-d | hi | 16:02 |
| DuncanT | hey | 16:02 |
| cian_ | hi | 16:02 |
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| jgriffith | Ok... looks like we have a number of folks, let's get started :) | 16:02 |
| jgriffith | #topic cidner-usecases | 16:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "cidner-usecases" | 16:02 | |
| jgriffith | http://etherpad.openstack.org/cinder-usecases | 16:02 |
| jgriffith | I had a conversation with winston-d last night on this and think we came up with something we agree on | 16:02 |
| jgriffith | volume_type should be used for scheduling to different cinder/volume nodes | 16:03 |
| jgriffith | This may be differentiated by network speed (10G versu 1G) | 16:03 |
| DuncanT | All of our volume nodes are equivilent, same as ceph... | 16:03 |
| jgriffith | or any other parameter the provider chooses | 16:03 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: So that's fine, that just means this doesn't do anything for you | 16:04 |
| jgriffith | :) | 16:04 |
| bswartz | wait | 16:04 |
| DuncanT | Does that mean we can't use volume types? Seems rather limiting | 16:04 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: go | 16:04 |
| bswartz | do you mean used to choose between different backends? | 16:04 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: No, it does not mean that | 16:05 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: That can be achieved via volume_types yes | 16:05 |
| bswartz | ceph could just represent one backend amoung others | 16:05 |
| DuncanT | Sorry, I'm misunderstanding you then | 16:05 |
| bswartz | so volume_type would allow the schedule to choose a ceph backend vs a different backend, right? | 16:05 |
| bswartz | scheduler* | 16:06 |
| winston-d | sure | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | bswart: yes via the volume node | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: Since we still have the limit of one backend per node it works nicely that way | 16:06 |
| bswartz | and the individual driver can make additional decisions based on volume_type after the scheduler has selected that particular driver? | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: So it would use the volume_type extra_specs... yes | 16:07 |
| jgriffith | Which I believe is something DuncanT and some others suggested before | 16:07 |
| jgriffith | But I was stubborn :) | 16:07 |
| bswartz | I thought volume_type_extra_specs were system-wide and staticly defined by the user | 16:07 |
| bswartz | user = OpenStack admin | 16:08 |
| winston-d | yes, the information in volume_type can be used to determine which nodes are capable of creating such volume, and also volume_type might contain information for driver to do customize volume it creates | 16:08 |
| DuncanT | winston-d: The second part of that statement is what I wanted to hear, thanks. Consider me in agreement | 16:08 |
| winston-d | DuncanT, :) | 16:09 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: feel better, or still concerns? | 16:09 |
| bswartz | I'm okay with the decision, I'm unclear on how volume_type_extra_specs solves any problems | 16:10 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: That's becuase right now it really doesn't :) | 16:10 |
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| jgriffith | bswartz: We just need to clarify what the intent was when these were created | 16:11 |
| winston-d | bswartz, mind elaborate a bit more on the problem/concern you have? | 16:11 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: We also need to agree upon what volume type scheduling is and move forward with it | 16:11 |
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| jgriffith | bswartz: anything? | 16:13 |
| bswartz | winston-d: when we wrote the NetApp driver, we needed a way to allow users to specify different service levels | 16:13 |
| bswartz | winston-d: and we looked at the options and chose volume_type | 16:13 |
| bswartz | winston-d: we also looked at volume_type_extra_specs and decided that feature was useless for our purposes | 16:13 |
| winston-d | well, from end user perspective, it works the other way around. | 16:14 |
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| winston-d | user choose to create a volume with certain 'volume_type', expecting to get corresponding service. | 16:14 |
| bswartz | so, in the NetApp driver, the set of supported volume_types is defined externally | 16:15 |
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| jgriffith | bswartz: But the problem is they're all still volume type *netapp* no? | 16:16 |
| bswartz | jgriffith: no | 16:16 |
| winston-d | yes, idea is very similar to 'instance_type' or 'flavor' in Nova, if you have some background on that. | 16:16 |
| bswartz | we support the concept of "gold", "silver", etc volume types | 16:16 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: Different driver and backend device for each? | 16:17 |
| winston-d | maybe if we change the name 'volume_type' to 'volume_flavor', things can be easier to understand? | 16:17 |
| bswartz | but policies that define the differences between the services levels exists in NetApp management software | 16:17 |
| bswartz | the openstack driver merely sends the request for gold/silver/etc storage | 16:17 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: You mean the netapp driver | 16:18 |
| bswartz | yeah | 16:18 |
| bswartz | so the current arrangement works fine for us | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: I understand what you're saying as I have the same challenge | 16:18 |
| bswartz | but volume_type_extra_specs doesn't add anything useful for our driver | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: Also, I'm not asking you to change it for Folsom | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | For Grizzly I would like to hammer out a more elegant solution for things like driver specific details | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | err... back-end driver specific details | 16:19 |
| bswartz | actually -- I can think of one thing | 16:19 |
| bswartz | we could use volume_type_extra_specs to create a mapping from volume_type names understood by openstack to service levels understood by netapp software | 16:19 |
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| winston-d | bswartz, exactly! | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: That's the whole idea | 16:20 |
| winston-d | that's how i want to implement that. | 16:20 |
| bswartz | okay | 16:20 |
| bswartz | currently the strings just have to match | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: It's just that nobody (including myself) have done it yet | 16:20 |
| bswartz | but a mapping table allows the user to use different strings, so that has some value | 16:21 |
| winston-d | scheduler will pick your backend, only because your backend driver states that it supports feature in 'extra_spec'. | 16:21 |
| bswartz | winston-d: I would like to see a concrete example of that | 16:21 |
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| jgriffith | Ok, are we all happy with moving forward on this at this point? | 16:22 |
| DuncanT | Shall we write one up on etherpad? | 16:22 |
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| jgriffith | DuncanT: I think it would be good to have a summary/decision section yes | 16:22 |
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| bswartz | I'd specifically like to see a howto type document for running 2 different drivers in the same environment, including how to make the scheduler to the right thing | 16:22 |
| DuncanT | Ok, let's try getting that added to the etherpad after the meeting? | 16:23 |
| vincent_hou | that would be amazing. | 16:23 |
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| DuncanT | The scheduler ahsn't been written yet is the biggest issue I think :-) | 16:23 |
| bswartz | uh oh | 16:23 |
| bswartz | so I'm guessing there won't be a scheduler for cinder in folsom then? | 16:24 |
| winston-d | for example, we have a very basic volume_type called 'standard_volume', it has one extra_spec, that's '4k_IOPS_capability':1,000. | 16:24 |
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| winston-d | bswartz, well, we have a very simple one. | 16:24 |
| DuncanT | Well, if you consider the fact there isn't one a bug rather than a missing feature, we /could/ add one next week... | 16:24 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: It's a bug! | 16:25 |
| DuncanT | :-) | 16:25 |
| jgriffith | So just fyi this is what's been driving the conversation | 16:25 |
| jgriffith | winston-d: had started ideas on a volume type scheduler but the disagreements on volume_types meant we needed to clear that up first | 16:25 |
| winston-d | jgriffith, i agree | 16:26 |
| DuncanT | Shall we aim to have examples up on etherpad in the next 24 hours, then if nobody loudly disagrees with them somebody can make a start ont he code? | 16:26 |
| winston-d | truth is, currently the 'volume_type' table in DB has only one column 'name'... | 16:26 |
| jgriffith | winston-d: I can fix the DB easily enough | 16:27 |
| winston-d | DuncanT, agree. | 16:27 |
| DuncanT | I think concrete examples of setups are the most useful thing at this point | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | winston-d: Once we decide what we want I can turn that around quickly | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: winston-d: I agree, post it, but I also think our discussion here as core team gives us enough to get started | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: +1 for concrete examples | 16:28 |
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| jgriffith | Ok, if there's no lingering questions shall we move on to the next topic? | 16:28 |
| winston-d | so, let's talk about what 'volume_type' should be/contain? | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | Or would you all like to spend some more time on the details here? | 16:28 |
| bswartz | do we have the time available? | 16:29 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: So this is probably important enough to spend the meeting time on | 16:29 |
| jgriffith | we can defer the other discussions, or folks can meet up in #openstack-cidner | 16:29 |
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| jgriffith | cinder | 16:29 |
| DuncanT | I think a volume type should just be a mapping between a name and a list of conditions that the scheduler and driver can both consume | 16:30 |
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| bswartz | can there be multiple scheduler implementations or just 1? | 16:30 |
| DuncanT | Multiple | 16:30 |
| DuncanT | Though it might be possible to have one handle most usecases... | 16:31 |
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| bswartz | assuming there is a "default" scheduler designed to address most users needs, who decides which "conditions" it understands? | 16:31 |
| winston-d | DuncanT, agree. and also volume type should be easy enough for end user to use, for now i think that's the only interface end user has to define what he/she needs (beside capacity). | 16:31 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: default scheduler is a *simple* scheduler that does nothing more than a round-robin type assignment | 16:32 |
| bswartz | jgriffith: is that likely to satisfy a majority of users? | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | depends.... | 16:32 |
| DuncanT | The better scheduler can be made to unserstand '=', '>', '<', '!='... what else do you want? | 16:32 |
| DuncanT | s/unserstand/understand/ | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | If they have multiple back-ends, then not likely | 16:33 |
| winston-d | bswartz, no, not at all. i plan to implement a filter scheduler, which can consume custom filter to do more advanced scheduling. | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: You can get a feel for some of this by looking at the compute schedulers in Nova | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: It's going to be the same design | 16:34 |
| DuncanT | So your volume_type 'super fast premium' might map to 'type == hp-block, min_iops > 1000000, existing_volumes<100' | 16:34 |
| bswartz | so what is the integration point between the scheduler and the driver? | 16:34 |
| bswartz | is it this 'type' field in the volume_type_extra_specs? | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: Depending on what you mean there is *no* real integration point | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: scheduler selects which volume node to use | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | The rest is abstracted out | 16:36 |
| winston-d | 'super fast premium' is just a name tag, right? what makes things work is the definition/properties under such name, 'type == hp-block, min_iops > 100,000' are the real useful information from scheduler stand point | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | So let's try and focus on one conversation at a time here | 16:36 |
| bswartz | how does scheduler know that one driver (or node) has different capabilities than another? | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: combination of the volume_type and extra_specs info | 16:37 |
| winston-d | bswartz, this requires each driver to report the capabilities to DB. | 16:37 |
| bswartz | aha | 16:37 |
| DuncanT | bswartz: There is a call to the driver for it to report capabilities | 16:37 |
| bswartz | so drivers do need to report their capabilities | 16:37 |
| winston-d | we have it now, 'report_driver_status' method | 16:37 |
| bswartz | I would call that an integration point | 16:37 |
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| jgriffith | You're not integration with the scheduler | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | integrating | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | You're reporting capabilities | 16:38 |
| winston-d | yes, scheduler may or may not use those information. | 16:38 |
| bswartz | yeah, but it's important to know that the scheduler is the consumer of those capabilities | 16:38 |
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| winston-d | bswartz, right | 16:39 |
| bswartz | you could say the scheduler is integrating with the driver, if you don't like saying the driver is integrating with the scheduler | 16:39 |
| bswartz | the point is, there is a communication path between them | 16:40 |
| bswartz | thanks for clearing that up | 16:40 |
| DuncanT | Ok, so do we now have a meeting of minds on how volumes_types roughly work or are there any questions? | 16:40 |
| bswartz | I'm good | 16:41 |
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| jgriffith | Ok, who wants to write up a summary on the etherpad? | 16:42 |
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| jgriffith | hehe | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | Ok, I'll take a look at doing that later and ya'll can review it | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | #action summarize volume_type discussion on etherpad | 16:42 |
| DuncanT | Waht about extra_specs? They seem a bit less agreed uopn | 16:42 |
| DuncanT | *upon | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | I still say it's a good place for driver specific info, but I think I'm outvoted on that one | 16:43 |
| DuncanT | Seems reasonable to put driver-specific stuff in there to me | 16:43 |
| winston-d | well, from what i saw at Nova side, extra_specs has no limit at all,, you can do all kinds of crazy things with them | 16:44 |
| bswartz | I *think* I understand what extra_spec is supposed to do, I just need to work through some experiments to see how it works | 16:44 |
| DuncanT | I don't think I understand, to be honest | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | I think it's going to be a bit fuzzy until we actually prototype something | 16:44 |
| DuncanT | Fair | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | I think winston-d hit it on the head *free for all* :) | 16:45 |
| DuncanT | I think as long as the scheduler can consume bits and the driver can consume bits, put what you want in there - any volume-specific details | 16:45 |
| winston-d | :) well, i will try to prototype something as soon as i can. | 16:46 |
| bswartz | as long as there is a way to achieve a setup where the user can select "netapp_gold", "netapp_silver", "non_netapp_blahblah", and have the appropriate thing happen, I am happy | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: :) | 16:46 |
| winston-d | DuncanT, exactly | 16:46 |
| DuncanT | bswartz: Taht matches our requirement, so it will happen one way or another | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | So I think also we should keep in mind that we need to have some discussions at the summit around how we deal with QOS going forward | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | I think we can/should do better in Grizzly | 16:47 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: anything else on the topic? | 16:48 |
| bswartz | jgriffith: no, thank you | 16:48 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: ? | 16:48 |
| jgriffith | winston-d: ? | 16:48 |
| DuncanT | I'm good | 16:48 |
| jgriffith | any lurkers have anything to add? | 16:48 |
| dtynan | nope | 16:49 |
| cian_ | no | 16:49 |
| winston-d | i'd like to hear input on what attribute/properties volume_type should contain | 16:49 |
| winston-d | but feel free to discuss after meeting | 16:49 |
| DuncanT | Create some examples on the etherpad... as far as I am concerned it is pretty much freeform... | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: +1 | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | I think they should be admin defined no? | 16:50 |
| winston-d | DuncanT, i added some comments on user-case pad, did you read it? | 16:50 |
| winston-d | yes, they can only be defined by admin (at least admin for tenant). | 16:51 |
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| jgriffith | Ok, hate to cut this short.. especially since winston-d is staying up late to join us :) | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | But we have some other important things we need to synch up on | 16:52 |
| winston-d | sure | 16:52 |
| winston-d | let's move on | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | #topic RC1 tasks | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | ?? | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | whatever | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | So bugs are rolling in, obviously that's priority | 16:53 |
| jgriffith | Please, please please... everyone keep an eye on the open cinder reviews page | 16:53 |
| winston-d | i will | 16:53 |
| DuncanT | Will do | 16:53 |
| jgriffith | Everybody who has a third part driver, we need documentation | 16:54 |
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| bswartz | where is the right place for those docs? | 16:54 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: here's an example http://docs.openstack.org/trunk/openstack-compute/admin/content/ch_volumes.html | 16:54 |
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| jgriffith | We'll need to address docs in cinder/docs as well | 16:54 |
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| bswartz | where can I edit these docs though? | 16:55 |
| bswartz | are the docs in a git repo? | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | You can download from github openstack-docs | 16:55 |
| bswartz | okay cool | 16:56 |
| jgriffith | Or if you want to write something up and send it to me I'll submit it all in one big batch | 16:56 |
| jgriffith | Up to you | 16:56 |
| bswartz | are the docs on the same milestone/release schedule? | 16:56 |
| jgriffith | If you want to write the XML feel free :) Or send me a doc and I'll convert it | 16:56 |
| jgriffith | yeah, believe so... but all of our stuff deferred docs to RC1 | 16:56 |
| bswartz | ok | 16:57 |
| jgriffith | One other thing that bswartz pointed out.... | 16:57 |
| jgriffith | For those that don't know or don't remember... | 16:57 |
| jgriffith | For RC1 all changes from Cinder are going to be back-ported to nova-volume | 16:57 |
| bswartz | what is the deadline for that backporting? | 16:58 |
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| jgriffith | RC1 | 16:58 |
| jgriffith | At least that's what we need to be shooting for | 16:58 |
| jgriffith | Sept 6 | 16:58 |
| bswartz | ugh | 16:59 |
| jgriffith | We may be able to wait until after RC1, I'll have to get some details on that | 16:59 |
| jgriffith | My recommendation would be this... | 16:59 |
| jgriffith | If you added a driver, make sure you get it ported over sooner rather than later | 16:59 |
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| jgriffith | bswartz: I believe you did both versions for yours already except for NFS? | 17:00 |
| bswartz | we still have 3 drivers to port | 17:01 |
| jgriffith | DOH | 17:01 |
| jgriffith | Sorry... thought you had all of them | 17:01 |
| bswartz | it won't be a huge effort, but I've delegated it | 17:01 |
| jgriffith | :) | 17:01 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: Just fix those cinder bugs, the port to nova stuff we'll have some leniancy I think | 17:01 |
| jgriffith | Alright... we're offically out of time | 17:02 |
| bswartz | yes, the bugfixes will be ready shortly | 17:02 |
| annegentle | thanks for the docs plug jgriffith | 17:02 |
| jgriffith | dtynan: Had a topic if folks want to stick around and nobody needs the room? | 17:02 |
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| jgriffith | annegentle: sure :) | 17:02 |
| jgriffith | any objections to extending another 10 minutes? | 17:03 |
| jgriffith | dtynan: You wanna talk abot boot from volume? | 17:03 |
| dtynan | yep. | 17:03 |
| dtynan | we had been kicking the tyres/tires here @ HP about Glance metadata and how to retain it in a Volume for billing/licensing. | 17:03 |
| dtynan | two povs: 1/ create a Glance image for the new, bootable volume (with the same image metadata) | 17:04 |
| dtynan | 2/ save the Glance metadata in the Cinder DB. | 17:04 |
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| dtynan | am favouring #2 as it has less impact and handles things like volume clones that bit better. | 17:05 |
| jgriffith | I'm not familiar enough with all the pitfalls of windows images and licensing etc | 17:05 |
| jgriffith | option 2 seems *safe* | 17:06 |
| dtynan | basically we need to keep a bunch of Glance metadata we need to carry across volumes. | 17:06 |
| dtynan | We'll raise a blueprint... | 17:06 |
| jgriffith | dtynan: Ok... you were planning this for Grizzly? | 17:06 |
| dtynan | yep. | 17:06 |
| jgriffith | Ok, good answer :) | 17:07 |
| dtynan | :) | 17:07 |
| jgriffith | Ok, thanks to everyone! | 17:07 |
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| cian_ | thanks | 17:07 |
| dtynan | thanks. | 17:07 |
| jgriffith | Hang out in openstack-cinder and help each other out this week | 17:07 |
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| jgriffith | cya! | 17:07 |
| jgriffith | #end meeting | 17:08 |
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| DuncanT | Bye | 17:08 |
| winston-d | bye | 17:08 |
| jeblair | jgriffith: "#endmeeting" | 17:08 |
| jgriffith | jeblair: thanks! | 17:08 |
| jgriffith | #endmeeting | 17:08 |
| jgriffith | grrrr | 17:08 |
| jgriffith | #endmeeting | 17:09 |
| jeblair | jgriffith: are you the chair? | 17:09 |
| jgriffith | hmmm | 17:09 |
| jgriffith | yes | 17:09 |
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| jeblair | jgriffith: there doesn't seem to be a meeting... :( | 17:09 |
| jgriffith | That explains a few things | 17:09 |
| jeblair | oh! | 17:09 |
| jeblair | it looks like meetbot restarted during your meeting... | 17:10 |
| jeblair | that's almost certainly my fault | 17:10 |
| jgriffith | hehe | 17:10 |
| jeblair | i approved a change to the puppet config; didn't realize we had that level of functional automation with meetbot. | 17:10 |
| jgriffith | I was wondering why #topic and others weren't working any longer | 17:10 |
| jeblair | go us. :) | 17:10 |
| jgriffith | LOL | 17:10 |
| jeblair | sorry about that. | 17:10 |
| jgriffith | Nahhh... no problem | 17:11 |
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| jeblair | #startmeeting test | 17:11 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 22 17:11:19 2012 UTC. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:11 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:11 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'test' | 17:11 |
| jeblair | #topic test meeting | 17:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "test meeting" | 17:11 | |
| jeblair | testing.... | 17:11 |
| jeblair | #action jeblair perform testing | 17:11 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 17:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "cidner-usecases" | 17:11 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 22 17:11:48 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:11 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/test/2012/test.2012-08-22-17.11.html | 17:11 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/test/2012/test.2012-08-22-17.11.txt | 17:11 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/test/2012/test.2012-08-22-17.11.log.html | 17:11 |
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| jeblair | #startmeeting test | 18:47 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 22 18:47:17 2012 UTC. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:47 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:47 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'test' | 18:47 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 18:47 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 22 18:47:27 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:47 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/test/2012/test.2012-08-22-18.47.html | 18:47 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/test/2012/test.2012-08-22-18.47.txt | 18:47 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/test/2012/test.2012-08-22-18.47.log.html | 18:47 |
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