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| portdirect | #startmeeting openstack-helm | 15:01 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 6 15:01:09 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is portdirect. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack-helm)" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_helm' | 15:01 |
| portdirect | lets give it a few mins for folks to arrive | 15:01 |
| portdirect | agenda is here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-helm-meeting-2019-08-06 | 15:01 |
| portdirect | #topic rollcall | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: openstack-helm)" | 15:01 | |
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| howell | o/ | 15:01 |
| lamt | \o | 15:01 |
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| megheisler | o/ | 15:01 |
| mattmceuen | o/ | 15:01 |
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| srwilkers | o/ | 15:02 |
| dwalt | o/ | 15:02 |
| georgk | \o | 15:02 |
| cheng1 | o/ | 15:02 |
| evrardjp | o/ | 15:02 |
| evrardjp | \o | 15:02 |
| evrardjp | (for parity) | 15:02 |
| georgk | :) | 15:02 |
| gagehugo | o/ | 15:03 |
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| * gagehugo hands srwilkers a rather large trout | 15:07 | |
| portdirect | ok - sorry folks | 15:07 |
| portdirect | #topic LOCI and friends | 15:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "LOCI and friends (Meeting topic: openstack-helm)" | 15:07 | |
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| mbuil | o/ | 15:08 |
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| portdirect | there is a post on the ml that i'd invite everyone to read: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-July/008130.html | 15:08 |
| portdirect | in summary chris (the LOCI ptl) has proposed the idea of moving loci to live under OSH's care | 15:09 |
| portdirect | this is a tricky subject for me | 15:09 |
| * srwilkers grumbles | 15:09 | |
| portdirect | in that i was involved early on in the genesis of both OSH and LOCI (back when it was yaodu) | 15:10 |
| *** itxaka has quit IRC | 15:10 | |
| portdirect | and one of the things we strived for then was agnosticity | 15:10 |
| portdirect | osh deployed and managed openstack services on k8s | 15:10 |
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| portdirect | and loci built openstack services into oci images | 15:10 |
| portdirect | we did this as we felt, partly based on the learnings we had had with previous projects, seperation was critical to long term evolition and sustainability | 15:11 |
| portdirect | that said, things evolve | 15:12 |
| portdirect | and so i think it would be great for us to weigh up the pros and cons of such a move | 15:12 |
| portdirect | and following that propose some paths forward | 15:13 |
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| mattmceuen | separating osh from the containerization project allowed us to vary the containerization independently, which in hindsight was a good move for us. If we bring loci under the osh roof, would we be tying osh to loci, or still support alternatives? | 15:13 |
| portdirect | i've started a few strawmen on the etherpad, and evrardjp has put some things up to: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-helm-meeting-2019-08-06 | 15:13 |
| mattmceuen | (albeit theoretical alternatives) | 15:13 |
| portdirect | i'd very mush hope that we continue down the agnostic path | 15:14 |
| evrardjp | mattmceuen: as a user, I would need to have something else available | 15:14 |
| portdirect | ^ evrardjp is a prime example of why we need to | 15:14 |
| mattmceuen | ++ | 15:14 |
| evrardjp | for me the biggest question is, what will the DNA of loci become? | 15:15 |
| portdirect | I think, personally, one of the issues with loci is that its very stable | 15:15 |
| evrardjp | what I mean by that is -- if we tie loci and osh, we will surely reduce the tech debt of both by being more opinionated -- but that has an impact on both projects | 15:16 |
| portdirect | there are some architectural changes that could be made | 15:16 |
| portdirect | but many orgs are using it now, in production, very successfully | 15:16 |
| portdirect | `we will surely reduce the tech debt of both by being more opinionated` this is what i'd like to avoid if possible | 15:16 |
| portdirect | id like tech debt reduction | 15:17 |
| portdirect | but not close coupling via opinionation | 15:17 |
| evrardjp | I don't think I meant change the coupling | 15:18 |
| evrardjp | but for example, we could take more decisions in the bindep. Assuming this, we will have to carry less code inside our zuul things | 15:18 |
| evrardjp | but then we'll take an opinion for OSH in that case, which will be opposite to some deployer's point of view of LOCI being agnostic of the deploy tool | 15:19 |
| srwilkers | personally, i'd rather loci stay separate from openstack-helm | 15:19 |
| srwilkers | i've got strong feelings about this proposal | 15:19 |
| evrardjp | srwilkers: strong against than for? | 15:20 |
| srwilkers | yes | 15:20 |
| evrardjp | could you clarify? | 15:20 |
| srwilkers | having been a kolla-kubernetes core before openstack-helm became more mature, i have an issue with the image building process and the deployment tooling being tightly coupled | 15:20 |
| srwilkers | i saw what it did to kolla | 15:20 |
| itxaka | agreed with srwilkers here, separate seems the way of keeping it as its own thing instead of just coupled osh, which would inevitably end up if we merge it | 15:21 |
| srwilkers | i do not want to support openstack-helm going down the same path | 15:21 |
| evrardjp | (I am not saying I am in favour or not btw -- I want to follow the community) | 15:21 |
| portdirect | mattmceuen: thoughts? | 15:21 |
| mattmceuen | yeah, that's where my head is at srwilkers... learnings from kolla-kubernetes. I see only some reward as far as reduction of debt in moving loci into osh, but a lot of risk | 15:22 |
| evrardjp | srwilkers: we kinda re already nowadays, when we think of it, because we consume mariadb/... images | 15:22 |
| srwilkers | no | 15:22 |
| evrardjp | then I am not sure to understand the difference :) | 15:22 |
| mattmceuen | are there other ways we could achieve some of chris' goals, like expanding the loci core team? | 15:22 |
| evrardjp | sorry to ask for clarifications | 15:22 |
| evrardjp | mattmceuen: I think it's not about the core team per se, but I guess having more ppl in the core team could invalidate the move | 15:23 |
| portdirect | i think this convo speaks volumes on how loci has served us very well | 15:23 |
| portdirect | but now we need to step up, and serve loci | 15:23 |
| itxaka | what is the problem that we are trying to fix here? Slow review times in loci? | 15:24 |
| evrardjp | I don't think that's the problem | 15:24 |
| mattmceuen | chris did call out "increase review velocity" in the email | 15:25 |
| portdirect | itxaka: at its heart, the rate of change in loci, and the time that people like chris have to put into the admin of the project | 15:25 |
| portdirect | i think openstack stuggles to support a truely 'stable' project :D | 15:25 |
| mattmceuen | ha | 15:26 |
| evrardjp | afaik the premise of the move was the "largest consumer of each other's work" | 15:26 |
| mattmceuen | yeah, but that doesn't sound like a problem that needs to be solved | 15:27 |
| srwilkers | that doesn't sound like a problem at all | 15:27 |
| mattmceuen | the problem I saw in the email was "review velocity" | 15:27 |
| mattmceuen | and combining projects would be a convenient way to try to solve it | 15:27 |
| srwilkers | i'm very much against that approach | 15:28 |
| mattmceuen | but it's also not the only way - and it comes with some risks | 15:28 |
| srwilkers | once again, going back to kolla | 15:28 |
| evrardjp | I didn't say it was a problem per se :) | 15:28 |
| itxaka | IMO review velocity and time sinked in the project does not seem like great gains against merging the project and making it coupled with osh | 15:28 |
| evrardjp | from what I take from the convo, it seems to be a willingness to keep the governance separate | 15:28 |
| evrardjp | did I summarize correctly? | 15:29 |
| portdirect | taking a simple mood of the room, im sensing that supporting an independent loci is the preferred path? | 15:29 |
| mattmceuen | that's how I lean, although I'm open to good counter arguments :) | 15:29 |
| portdirect | itxaka, srwilkers ? | 15:29 |
| srwilkers | absolutely portdirect | 15:30 |
| mattmceuen | portdirect: with the caveat that we should try to support loci some other way if possible to make sure it's well cared for | 15:30 |
| mattmceuen | so we're "consumers" not "freeloaders" :) | 15:30 |
| itxaka | =+2 | 15:30 |
| srwilkers | mattmceuen: nothings stopping anyone in the openstack-helm team from reviewing changes in loci or being involved with the project | 15:30 |
| evrardjp | by using loci in the first place, I would expect encourage even :) | 15:31 |
| srwilkers | but one of my complaints about kolla's governance model back in the day was that frankly, i didn't care to work with the ansible deployment of kolla images or the kolla image building project itself | 15:31 |
| srwilkers | all i cared about was working with kolla-kubernetes, because that's where my interests were | 15:31 |
| portdirect | ok - I'll talk to chris | 15:32 |
| evrardjp | that's a different problem IMO | 15:32 |
| srwilkers | it's not a problem at all | 15:32 |
| evrardjp | sorry, wrong term | 15:32 |
| portdirect | in the meantime - I think its our duty to continue to support loci, and do so more than we have been recently | 15:32 |
| evrardjp | that's a different topic than governance | 15:32 |
| srwilkers | it's all open source projects, and people are going to work on what interests them | 15:32 |
| portdirect | `it's all open source projects, and people are going to work on what interests them` never a truer set of words spoken in irc | 15:33 |
| mattmceuen | I think we're all in violent agreement | 15:33 |
| * srwilkers grabs his rather large trout | 15:33 | |
| evrardjp | I fail to see where the violence is :) | 15:33 |
| evrardjp | except on the large trout of srwilkers | 15:34 |
| itxaka | I love the violent agreement phrase :) | 15:34 |
| mattmceuen | lol just an exageration. we're all passionate about doing the right thing | 15:34 |
| * portdirect bites tongue, something something 'ica | 15:34 | |
| evrardjp | mattmceuen: that's good :) | 15:34 |
| evrardjp | I am not sure we are all talking about the same things though. I am fine with the answer that will be given anyway :) | 15:35 |
| portdirect | yeah - sounds like a lot of diff reasons, but a similar consensus | 15:35 |
| evrardjp | I am going with the flow | 15:35 |
| portdirect | ok - lets move on | 15:37 |
| portdirect | #topic open floor | 15:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open floor (Meeting topic: openstack-helm)" | 15:37 | |
| portdirect | before we move onto reviews, anything else we should be thinking about this week? | 15:37 |
| itxaka | The heat. Be sure to drink lots of water | 15:38 |
| evrardjp | itxaka: +1 | 15:38 |
| evrardjp | thanks for the reminder | 15:38 |
| * evrardjp drinks now | 15:38 | |
| evrardjp | itxaka, that funny guy who genuinely cares about us. | 15:39 |
| itxaka | you know it | 15:39 |
| evrardjp | all hail to itxaka \o/! | 15:39 |
| evrardjp | hahah | 15:39 |
| portdirect | itxaka: where are you based? | 15:39 |
| itxaka | Madrid, Spain | 15:39 |
| evrardjp | (any reference to a Matt Groening anime is completely not planned) | 15:39 |
| portdirect | oh my | 15:40 |
| portdirect | itxaka, id just sit in a freezer if i were you | 15:40 |
| itxaka | oh thats a good question for the open floor, where is everyone based on? | 15:40 |
| itxaka | I know JP's location but not anybody elses | 15:40 |
| portdirect | 34c (95f for some) is too hot! | 15:40 |
| itxaka | elses doesnt exist, sorry about that :) | 15:41 |
| portdirect | I'm in st louis, atm | 15:41 |
| mattmceuen | same - sunny sunny st louis | 15:41 |
| cheng1 | About the re-arrange meeting time, has the voting ended? | 15:43 |
| portdirect | it has, but it conflicted with the airship meetings, which i belive also conflicted with themselves | 15:43 |
| * mattmceuen is very conflicted | 15:43 | |
| portdirect | so we need to hold again, to ensure we dont have people attempting to attend 3 meetings at the same time | 15:43 |
| portdirect | i'm getting my head round the voting tool, and will get time options out shortly | 15:44 |
| cheng1 | portdirect, got it | 15:45 |
| portdirect | #topic reviews | 15:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "reviews (Meeting topic: openstack-helm)" | 15:46 | |
| portdirect | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/p9VriVqD/ | 15:46 |
| evrardjp | oh my bad my reference was incorrect, it was "all glory to the hypnotoad" not "all hail to the hypnotoad" -- same idea though | 15:46 |
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| evrardjp | anything else? | 15:48 |
| portdirect | i think thats it | 15:48 |
| evrardjp | I wouldn't mind reclaiming 12 minutes | 15:48 |
| evrardjp | woot | 15:48 |
| evrardjp | thanks everyone | 15:48 |
| portdirect | #endmeeting | 15:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 15:48 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 6 15:48:46 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:48 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_helm/2019/openstack_helm.2019-08-06-15.01.html | 15:48 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_helm/2019/openstack_helm.2019-08-06-15.01.txt | 15:48 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_helm/2019/openstack_helm.2019-08-06-15.01.log.html | 15:48 |
| itxaka | o/ | 15:48 |
| mattmceuen | o/ | 15:49 |
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