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| jokke_ | #startmeeting glance | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Jan 10 14:00:01 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jokke_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: glance)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'glance' | 14:00 |
| jokke_ | #topic roll-call | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "roll-call (Meeting topic: glance)" | 14:00 | |
| jokke_ | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-team-meeting-agenda | 14:00 |
| jokke_ | o/ | 14:00 |
| GregWaines | o/ | 14:00 |
| rosmaita | o/ | 14:01 |
| jokke_ | I think we have as much quorum as we can, just noticed message from Abhishek that he is not feeling well and will need to skip the meeting | 14:01 |
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| jokke_ | #topic updates | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "updates (Meeting topic: glance)" | 14:02 | |
| *** Liang__ is now known as LiangFang | 14:02 | |
| jokke_ | So we're hitting Milestone 2 today | 14:02 |
| LiangFang | o/ | 14:02 |
| * rosmaita wants to note in the minutes that we all hope Abhishek gets well soon! | 14:02 | |
| jokke_ | Not as big of a deal as it used to be while we were still releasing milestone releases, but good reminder that we're running very thin on time for Stein! | 14:03 |
| jokke_ | rosmaita++ | 14:03 |
| jokke_ | Abhishek has been huge help working with me to get the visibility change going through tests, which sparked one of the topics for today | 14:04 |
| jokke_ | but first I want to bring the oslo discussion back on the table | 14:04 |
| jokke_ | #topic using olso libraries | 14:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "using olso libraries (Meeting topic: glance)" | 14:05 | |
| jokke_ | So this is one example, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/625232/ not by any means blame for the situation and we've discussed about this before | 14:05 |
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| jokke_ | We should not use oslo just for the sake of using oslo. The uuidutils is just extremely good example as it was proposed that we import it to replace oneliner from stdlib just because it exists | 14:06 |
| jokke_ | I was digging into it and looking the oslo code and it's literally just few years old wrapper to do exactly the same thing with different name we do directly from stdlib | 14:07 |
| rosmaita | yeah, last time i looked, there wasn't much in it | 14:07 |
| jokke_ | so I marked the bug as "Won't fix" and -2d the patch | 14:07 |
| rosmaita | and i doubt openstack will change the uuid implementation | 14:07 |
| jokke_ | indeed | 14:08 |
| jokke_ | nor we can do even if someone gets the brilliant idea to do it for some other project | 14:08 |
| jokke_ | so lets avoid the overhead of someone getting the idea of changing that and keep using stdlib for our uuid needs | 14:08 |
| jokke_ | we execute few lines less code and get the exactly same result | 14:09 |
| jokke_ | and I think this applies to the other oslo libs like I've said before. I'm all for using oslo if it provides any level of benefit for us and makes sense, but please lets not have these bugs/patches of "Lets use oslo because it exists" | 14:10 |
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| rosmaita | i may put up a patch to https://docs.openstack.org/glance/latest/contributor/minor-code-changes.html to mention this case | 14:11 |
| jokke_ | like we saw with oslo.context it is possible that something changes there without us realizing and we spend days trying to figure out why all of our gates are red | 14:11 |
| LiangFang | jokke_: ++ | 14:11 |
| LiangFang | if new code, may use oslo | 14:11 |
| jokke_ | LiangFang: and even then it better be for some good reason. I won't be using olso.someutils.print just because someone got print wrapper merged to oslo that makes no sense for us ;) | 14:12 |
| jokke_ | rosmaita: that would be great to have in dev docs indeed | 14:14 |
| jokke_ | next topic | 14:14 |
| jokke_ | #topic MVP/new features and releasing them experimental | 14:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "MVP/new features and releasing them experimental (Meeting topic: glance)" | 14:14 | |
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| jokke_ | so we have lots of stuff coming around we are releasing first as experimental and trying to work the kinks out over multiple cycles | 14:15 |
| jokke_ | I just wanted to probe the feeling should we put some DEFAULT level config option like allow_experimental [True|False] to make it more obvious for operators | 14:15 |
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| jokke_ | and if it's false we just refuse to start the service if it's configured to use those experimental features (like image import was and multiple backends still is) | 14:16 |
| jokke_ | and I think what ever approach we take on the edge caching/split braining I think that might be in this list for cycle or two before we have got it to the point we're confident to tell our customers to goahead and run it in production | 14:17 |
| rosmaita | do any other projects have a similar thing? | 14:18 |
| LiangFang | should we have seperate option for each experimental feature? | 14:18 |
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| jokke_ | rosmaita: I do not know about other OpenStack projects, but I have seen it elsewhere as some audits are quite picky about running experimental/deprecated features | 14:19 |
| jokke_ | LiangFang: we're documenting it pretty decently in release notes and config options I think, but we really don't have any clear indication to the operators if they are running experimental code or not other than going through all those few thousands of lines of config files and or poking the api and crossreferencing that to the docs | 14:21 |
| rosmaita | i don't have a strong opinion, though i do think just one greneral config option, not one for each feature | 14:21 |
| GregWaines | I think it's a good idea to have an 'explicit' configurable option around the use of experimental features | 14:21 |
| rosmaita | becasue we'll want it 'on' all the time in devstack, i think | 14:22 |
| jokke_ | I was more thinking of just having single switch operator could flip and see what their deployment tooling is doing and having indication in the logs that they are indeed relying to the experimental feature | 14:22 |
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| rosmaita | either that or we patch oslo.config to have an 'EXPERIMENTAL' option, like they do now for 'DEPRECATED' | 14:23 |
| jokke_ | GregWaines: that was way better worded version of my multiple lines of trying to explain what I was looking for ;) | 14:23 |
| GregWaines | :) | 14:24 |
| rosmaita | then it would be in both logs and config | 14:24 |
| jokke_ | rosmaita: that would be great way to identify them, then it's just the matter of communicating it clearly to the operator (and having that flip switch to prevent service start if such exists) | 14:24 |
| rosmaita | the problem with the switch is that some options will have values even if they're not being used | 14:25 |
| rosmaita | i'm thinkihng the way import was introduced | 14:25 |
| jokke_ | I think it just would be something that could make life easier. Maybe I should send short survey out and collect feedback from field and form proposal based on that? | 14:26 |
| rosmaita | jokke_: yeah, i should be clear. (1) we should do something, but (2) i'm not sold on the general flip switch | 14:26 |
| rosmaita | you could survey for ideas, though you never know what you'll get! | 14:27 |
| rosmaita | the last thing we want is really complicated code to analyze whether some features are in use | 14:28 |
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| jokke_ | I was more thinking of asking "do you want flipswitch" "Are you ok if we just log clearly when such feature is enabled on start" :P | 14:28 |
| jokke_ | and write spec(lite) based on that | 14:28 |
| jokke_ | not necessarily asking to get 13 different ideas what to do from 12 responses :D | 14:28 |
| rosmaita | well, i wouldn't ask "do you want flipswitch" until we have a good idea how it would be implemented | 14:28 |
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| rosmaita | but i guess if we use only sample defaults for these options | 14:29 |
| rosmaita | they would all be None | 14:29 |
| rosmaita | makes it a PITA to actually turn the stuff on, though | 14:29 |
| rosmaita | so the tradeoff is: easy for operator to turn off, but more config to turn on | 14:29 |
| rosmaita | so maybe the flipswitch code won't be too bad | 14:30 |
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| jokke_ | I think we have always had those features turned off by default when they get introduced as experimental | 14:30 |
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| jokke_ | so it's easy to do it on the same logic it just check which way the flipswitch is combined with the condition to enable the feature vs. just checking the feature specific | 14:31 |
| jokke_ | more of say we have some deployment tooling right now deplying glance with multiple backends configured, it's huge amount of hunting to check if that's the case for someone who doesn't know the details | 14:32 |
| jokke_ | but if there is flip for allow_experimetal it's really easy to flip it over and see what blows up in the testing environment | 14:32 |
| jokke_ | and it really haven't been a problem when we have maybe 1, that's easy to grep from configs. But I have a feeling that the edge boom is going to bring more than one or three different things parallel that may stay experimental for a while | 14:33 |
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| jokke_ | specially as most of the requests seems to be "Something like this but we're not exactly sure about the requirements yet" | 14:34 |
| rosmaita | it may be that we should do both (a) introduce EXPERIMENTAL in oslo.config and (b) the flip switch | 14:35 |
| rosmaita | but i will shut up noe | 14:35 |
| rosmaita | *now | 14:35 |
| jokke_ | yeah I do not see those two being by any means mutually exclusive | 14:35 |
| jokke_ | ok last thing from me | 14:36 |
| jokke_ | #topic registry removal | 14:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "registry removal (Meeting topic: glance)" | 14:36 | |
| jokke_ | Soo, the v1 registry was sort of gone with v1 api being gone and the v2 registry was deprecated to be removed in Stein | 14:36 |
| jokke_ | and this was one of those things that is possibly making the life difficult with the visibility patch | 14:37 |
| jokke_ | so Just a reminder if someone has interest and cycles, we can remove registry in Stein and we could do with quite a bit of cleanup for the related code and documentation | 14:38 |
| LiangFang | devstack may also need to adjust | 14:38 |
| jokke_ | I think there is still quite a bit of v1 codebase left because of the registry being so lovely tangled together there | 14:38 |
| jokke_ | LiangFang: I think/hope that devstack has been running glance quite a few cycles already without registry | 14:39 |
| LiangFang | OK | 14:39 |
| jokke_ | IIRC they were quite eager not to deploy it and have glance talking directly to the db as soon as it was possible when v1 got phased out | 14:40 |
| jokke_ | any correction to that assumption is more than welcome | 14:40 |
| jokke_ | that was all from me this week and all we had in the agenda | 14:41 |
| jokke_ | #topic open discussion | 14:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: glance)" | 14:41 | |
| LiangFang | sudo systemctl status devstack@g-reg.service | 14:42 |
| LiangFang | seems devstack still setup register | 14:42 |
| jokke_ | LiangFang: ok, Thank You! | 14:42 |
| GregWaines | wrt open discussion ... interested in brief discussion on the glance edge caching spec | 14:42 |
| jokke_ | So that needs to get sorted if we remove it :D | 14:42 |
| jokke_ | GregWaines: sure, as promised I've read the spec with care couple of times and sent you+others in that mailchain of ours some thoughts | 14:43 |
| rosmaita | someone does need to take a look, the registry config is set up in https://github.com/openstack-dev/devstack/blob/master/lib/glance but i don't know if it's used in the default; may only be there to support when v1 is enabled | 14:43 |
| GregWaines | Yeah I saw that ... thanks for your input. | 14:43 |
| GregWaines | Agree with you that reviews by Dan and Bogdan have been helpful ... a handful of good suggestions | 14:44 |
| jokke_ | I was super happy seeing that Dan also reviewed it. Nice to have bit out of box viewpoints as well | 14:44 |
| jokke_ | ++ | 14:44 |
| GregWaines | I am going to update the spec base on their comments ... just while it is fresh in my mind and not to lose their input | 14:44 |
| GregWaines | but | 14:44 |
| GregWaines | also want to look at the suggestions in your email | 14:45 |
| GregWaines | I'm open to looking at the multiple backend approach again | 14:45 |
| GregWaines | is there a detailed SPEC or proposal on that ? | 14:45 |
| GregWaines | i've seen what we have on the edge-computing wiki ... but that's pretty light | 14:45 |
| jokke_ | so the multiple backends work is being done and it is currently experimental ;P | 14:46 |
| GregWaines | is there a spec ? | 14:46 |
| jokke_ | I think it's unfortunately one of those things where the edge format is not actually well documented anywhere | 14:46 |
| jokke_ | and I'm more than willing to work out proposal for it next week | 14:46 |
| rosmaita | GregWaines: there is a spec for multiple backends in rocky/implemented | 14:47 |
| GregWaines | understood ... who is working on it ? ... maybe I can get more details directly | 14:47 |
| rosmaita | (at least there should be) | 14:47 |
| jokke_ | http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/glance-specs/specs/rocky/implemented/glance/multi-store.html | 14:47 |
| rosmaita | and there it is | 14:47 |
| GregWaines | ok ... i'll take a look at the rocky/implemented spec ... but yeah suspect that central --> edge may not be explicitly discussed in that | 14:47 |
| GregWaines | but suspect what you were suggesting was to build off that | 14:48 |
| rosmaita | GregWaines: i think you are correct about that | 14:48 |
| jokke_ | but in nutshell my idea that has been fluently ignored in every single discussion around the edge model has been to utilize that with site local backends | 14:48 |
| jokke_ | and instead of sending pull requests to the edge sites for the images that are needed there to be cached pushing the image to the local backend in that site | 14:49 |
| jokke_ | and having db replication taking care of having up-to-date metadata | 14:49 |
| GregWaines | understand ... historically, our decision to do the pull approach was to really build off the caching that was already supported in glance | 14:50 |
| jokke_ | just because the database guys have been solving this very issue for long time and they are doing it really well | 14:50 |
| jokke_ | yeah, I totally understand that perspective | 14:50 |
| GregWaines | ( our original approach did not have the metadata synching ... so did not have the issues being discussed in the spec right now ) | 14:50 |
| jokke_ | And I really want to avoid getting here https://i2.wp.com/ecbiz168.inmotionhosting.com/~perfor21/performancemanagementcompanyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/intrinsic-round-wheels-already-in-wagon.gif :P | 14:51 |
| GregWaines | or meta data pulling | 14:51 |
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| rosmaita | GregWaines: i have not looked at your fork, where were you storing the metadata locally? | 14:51 |
| jokke_ | it definitely has it's perks but there is also lots of twirks and overhead by polling service to sync something that is not designed to be synced outside :D | 14:52 |
| GregWaines | no ... in our original approach, we did not support funcationality when disconnected from the central site ... so just always got the metadata from central site and only cached the image | 14:52 |
| rosmaita | ok, gotcha | 14:52 |
| GregWaines | but we have a lot of use cases with our commercial product that are using Distributed Cloud and connectivity is not 100% reliable and need functionality to work when disconnected | 14:53 |
| jokke_ | GregWaines: and honestly the caching is still great way to speed up booting multiple VMs from backend that has slow connectivity | 14:53 |
| rosmaita | the problem with push is that the edge sites are the ones who will know when they have been disconnected, so i think pull is actually better | 14:53 |
| rosmaita | or at least a "hey, i am ready for a push" | 14:53 |
| GregWaines | that was our thinking | 14:53 |
| GregWaines | although | 14:53 |
| GregWaines | we actually were thinking of possibly supporting both a push and pull model ... as some customers / use cases may align better with one than the other | 14:54 |
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| rosmaita | right, i can see that | 14:55 |
| jokke_ | yup | 14:55 |
| rosmaita | it depends on how much maintenance we want the central glance to do | 14:55 |
| rosmaita | becasuse i can see these edge sites being very ephemeral, so it will be hard to know a site has disappeared vs. a bad network disruption | 14:56 |
| jokke_ | so just quick recap of what I had in mind would provide both in same package | 14:56 |
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| GregWaines | anyways ... good discussions ... wanted to let you know that a) i will update spec to capture recent comments b) will look at multiple backend approach to better understand that c) will follow up on other questions in erno's email | 14:57 |
| jokke_ | _if_ we replicate the db and make possible (which I think oslo.db makes very easy) for glance-api to talk to 2 db (one for reads one for writes) we would have the metadata always there, we would have the locally stored images always there | 14:57 |
| rosmaita | jokke_: i wonder whether you should patch Greg's spec with an "alternatives" section mapping out what you think | 14:57 |
| jokke_ | and the caching would still work for images that are needed to be fetched from the central store | 14:58 |
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| GregWaines | yeah makes sense | 14:58 |
| rosmaita | i am worried about using db replication vs. a well-defined API, mainly because i wonder how long doing a glance-edge-on-the-cheap will last ... it may be that the "normal" vs. "edge" glances are going to be a bit different as this develops | 14:58 |
| jokke_ | GregWaines: I'll try to get my idea to easier digestable format next week when I'm back home and I'll send it to you and we can have quick call to brainstorm/walk it through | 14:59 |
| GregWaines | sounds good | 14:59 |
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| jokke_ | rosmaita: the problem is that we don't have well defined api and we're planning to proxy api calls which has been quite a big nono in past for the community | 14:59 |
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| GregWaines | wrt DB replication vs API replication ... Just FYI ... StarlingX does have an API Synchronization Framework for using REST APIs to synchronize data between two clouds | 15:00 |
| rosmaita | that may be useful | 15:00 |
| jokke_ | but we're out of time | 15:00 |
| rosmaita | next topic: we do need to prioritize giving devstack some love, for example eliminate https://github.com/openstack-dev/devstack/blob/88f8c7f02d7553d373abcab91e7af1d9e7334773/lib/glance#L60 | 15:00 |
| jokke_ | thanks all! | 15:00 |
| GregWaines | thanks | 15:00 |
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| jokke_ | lets keep this going and find the solution to fix all edge issues! :P | 15:00 |
| jokke_ | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 15:00 | |
| GregWaines | :) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Jan 10 15:00:57 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2019/glance.2019-01-10-14.00.html | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2019/glance.2019-01-10-14.00.txt | 15:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2019/glance.2019-01-10-14.00.log.html | 15:01 |
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| Haunted330 | This channel is closed. You are going to have to leave. | 23:59 |
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