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| jroll | #startmeeting ironic | 17:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Oct 17 17:00:00 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jroll. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| devananda | o/ | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ironic' | 17:00 |
| mat128 | o/ | 17:00 |
| vdrok | o/ | 17:00 |
| JayF | o/ | 17:00 |
| rpioso | o/ | 17:00 |
| mjturek | o/ | 17:00 |
| yuriyz|2 | o/ | 17:00 |
| bfournie | o/ | 17:00 |
| krtaylor | o/ | 17:00 |
| lucasagomes | o/ | 17:00 |
| mariojv | o/ | 17:00 |
| jroll | as always, agenda is here: | 17:00 |
| hshiina | o/ | 17:00 |
| jroll | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Ironic#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 17:00 |
| jroll | #topic announcements / reminders | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "announcements / reminders (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:00 | |
| jroll | so the summit is next week | 17:00 |
| rloo | o/ | 17:01 |
| jroll | accordingly, let's not have this meeting next week | 17:01 |
| jlvillal | o/ | 17:01 |
| jroll | don't see any reason not to have it the following week, though | 17:01 |
| TheJulia | o/ | 17:01 |
| jroll | also, I mostly won't be here for the rest of this week | 17:02 |
| lucasagomes | jroll, it's halloween no ? | 17:02 |
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| milan | o/ | 17:02 |
| dtantsur | o/ | 17:02 |
| rloo | lucasagomes: we can have a ghostly meeting? | 17:02 |
| jroll | I'll be here a bit today and tomorrow and then gone | 17:02 |
| jroll | hit me on hangouts if anything urgent :) | 17:02 |
| lucasagomes | rloo, ++ let's do it heh | 17:02 |
| sambetts | o/ | 17:02 |
| jroll | lucasagomes: tis, but that's not a 'day off' holiday anywhere that I know of | 17:02 |
| jroll | I'll wear a costume | 17:02 |
| mat128 | videoconference? :) | 17:03 |
| lucasagomes | I think it is in ireland, but for another reason | 17:03 |
| lucasagomes | bank holiday | 17:03 |
| lucasagomes | anyway... | 17:03 |
| jroll | ah | 17:03 |
| jroll | anyone have other announcements or reminders? | 17:03 |
| rloo | jroll: reminder for folks attending summit read specs/prepare beforehand | 17:03 |
| jroll | ++ | 17:03 |
| jroll | all of my ++ | 17:03 |
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| rloo | jroll: maybe we should send an email out about that. | 17:04 |
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| * rloo volunteers after i see what the state of the specs, etc are... | 17:04 | |
| jroll | rloo: thanks :) | 17:04 |
| milan | rloo ++ mail w/ specs to read would be nice :) | 17:05 |
| jroll | I'd be surprised if people that don't know they should read background info will actually read the ML, but we shall see | 17:05 |
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| JayF | rloo: ++ and also good for folks not attending to get input in the spec before others talk about it in the summit | 17:05 |
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| milan | JayF, good point | 17:06 |
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| jroll | anything else? | 17:06 |
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| rloo | jroll: oh, any meetup at summit? | 17:06 |
| rloo | jroll: i mean, evening gathering | 17:06 |
| jroll | rloo: lucasagomes was going to look into a thing but as of yet nothing planned | 17:06 |
| lucasagomes | rloo, I want to book a restaurant | 17:07 |
| lucasagomes | we need to decide the day | 17:07 |
| rloo | lucasagomes: thx for volunteering! | 17:07 |
| vdrok | and are we going to have an arrival list as the last time? | 17:07 |
| lucasagomes | let's do it at the end of the meeting ? Or should I send an email to the ML ? | 17:07 |
| lucasagomes | rloo, I will try, my spanish is not that great either | 17:07 |
| jlvillal | vdrok: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ironic-ocata-summit-people ??? | 17:07 |
| jroll | TIL | 17:07 |
| vdrok | oh, thanks jlvillal :) | 17:07 |
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| krtaylor | meetup++ | 17:07 |
| mat128 | jroll: might be worth a #link | 17:07 |
| jroll | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ironic-ocata-summit-people | 17:08 |
| * krtaylor missed planning that for ocata | 17:08 | |
| rloo | could we use that etherpad to indicate availability for dinner? | 17:08 |
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| dtantsur | rloo, I'd prefer doodle, it's easier to analyze | 17:08 |
| rloo | dtantsur: ok, that works too | 17:09 |
| lucasagomes | yeah I think doodle is easy to visualize | 17:09 |
| * lucasagomes creates a doodle | 17:09 | |
| jroll | alright, shall we move on? | 17:09 |
| rloo | although wasn't it doodle that the/some asians couldn't access? | 17:09 |
| rloo | + movin' on | 17:09 |
| jroll | can always add in the email "if you can't get to doodle, reply here" | 17:09 |
| jroll | #topic subteam status reports | 17:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "subteam status reports (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:09 | |
| jroll | as always, those are here | 17:10 |
| jroll | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/IronicWhiteBoard | 17:10 |
| jroll | line 80 this time | 17:10 |
| jroll | woo, serial console is finally done \o/ | 17:10 |
| jroll | thanks to folks that were involved there | 17:10 |
| rloo | jroll: ++. the reviews by the nova folks were ... interesting... | 17:10 |
| jroll | root device hints also done, except docs \o/ | 17:10 |
| jlvillal | +1! | 17:10 |
| lucasagomes | o/ | 17:10 |
| jroll | and our first real notifications were approved today, woo | 17:12 |
| mariojv | \o/ | 17:12 |
| jroll | yay we did stuff between release and summit | 17:12 |
| rloo | lots of woo's today :) | 17:12 |
| milan | :) | 17:12 |
| rloo | dtantsur: wrt the work around for neutron pool issue -- whoever is going to remove the workaround, I suggest do it early this week, or wait til after summit. | 17:12 |
| jroll | so if people need things to work on this week beyond prepping for summit, looks like BFV specs, driver comp specs, portgroups patches | 17:13 |
| dtantsur | we can wait, I'll just leave this bug as critical as a reminder :) | 17:13 |
| rloo | dtantsur: it isn't critical any more though but i guess it is fine to leave it as that. you're the only one that looks :D | 17:13 |
| dtantsur | sigh... | 17:14 |
| dtantsur | :) | 17:14 |
| jroll | heh | 17:14 |
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| jroll | anything else on this topic? | 17:15 |
| jroll | k | 17:15 |
| jroll | #topic Where should Ironic keep it's canonical admin guide until the docs team supports writing the admin guide in-tree? | 17:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Where should Ironic keep it's canonical admin guide until the docs team supports writing the admin guide in-tree? (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:15 | |
| jroll | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-October/105493.html | 17:15 |
| jroll | someone was bad and didn't put their name here, but I suspect this is a JayF topic? | 17:15 |
| JayF | Whoops! | 17:16 |
| JayF | Yeah, | 17:16 |
| JayF | the basic outline is this: The docs team does not want to do admin-guides in-tree this cycle (even if I was willing to do the work) | 17:16 |
| JayF | so we have to figure out what we want to do for admin-guide stuff moving forward: | 17:16 |
| JayF | 1) Keep it in the docs repo, and contribute to it | 17:16 |
| JayF | 2) Replace the minimal information in the existing admin-guide (which appears to have been copied from our dev docs) with a link back to our dev docs and put the admin guide in our dev docs | 17:17 |
| dtantsur | for me, it sounds like something to try to discuss with docs folks on the summit... | 17:17 |
| dtantsur | otherwise, I'd prefer #2 | 17:17 |
| mat128 | JayF: is there a 3? | 17:17 |
| JayF | I don't anticipate we'll do a lot of admin guide work this cycle, but it's getting hard to draw the line between "admin" stuff and "install" stuff | 17:17 |
| jroll | 3) continue ignoring the concept of an admin-guide until we can do it in-tree :) | 17:17 |
| JayF | mat128: I don't really think so, I mean, there's an option to do nothing implied | 17:17 |
| rloo | dtantsur: what sort of discussion at summit, are you thinking of? JayF already had a discussion with them in the ML | 17:18 |
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| JayF | jroll: I don't think that's really a reasonable option; information on how to administrate ironic has to go /somewhere/ and I'm trying to avoid us overloading our install-guide in the short term. | 17:18 |
| mat128 | JayF: move current admin-guide to our install-guide as the line is so thin anyway? | 17:18 |
| dtantsur | rloo, well, get to know their motivation better, maybe future plans. maybe show them a PoC. | 17:18 |
| rloo | so the thing with ignoring (status quo) is that there IS ironic stuff in the admin-guide, but it is a subset of what we have in our dev docs | 17:18 |
| dtantsur | rloo, iirc it's pretty miserable, but it's linked from the openstack main docs page.. so that's what people find first | 17:19 |
| jroll | dtantsur: they plan to do it in pike or later, fwiw | 17:19 |
| rloo | dtantsur: JayF won't be at the summit. and based on the replies in the ML, i doubt that anything will happen before pike. | 17:19 |
| JayF | My opinion is that we should do #2; put an admin-guide in-tree, with a specific mind to organizing it so it's easy to migrate to an in-tree admin-guide later | 17:19 |
| dtantsur | jroll, that's strange that they don't accept help for that.. | 17:19 |
| JayF | dtantsur: that's exactly what I thought too | 17:19 |
| jroll | dtantsur: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | 17:19 |
| mariojv | 2) sounds ok. that way we can get something useful out quicker, and maybe move it to the docs repo later once we have something high quality | 17:19 |
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| rloo | I vote for 2) | 17:20 |
| JayF | dtantsur: I basicaly offered to do admin-guide intree for them, and they turned me down | 17:20 |
| dtantsur | hmmmm.. ok, #2 then. | 17:20 |
| jroll | JayF: yeah, indeed, I'd love for the later migration to be mv ironic/doc/source/admin-guide ironic/admin-guide | 17:20 |
| dtantsur | if they're so busy, they probably won't be pleased with a spam of our patches as well | 17:20 |
| jroll | so yeah, I'm good with #2 | 17:20 |
| JayF | I mean, they said they're willing to take our patches for the out-of-tree admin guide | 17:20 |
| JayF | I'm just not keen on that as we tend to like having our stuff in-tree | 17:21 |
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| JayF | especially since the relationship between dev docs / install guide / admin guide is ... not well established yet for ironic | 17:21 |
| dtantsur | well, yeah, we can provide much more valuable review IMO | 17:21 |
| rloo | dtantsur: so folks should read the entire thread. Basically, Lana said: "However, I want to collect data based on that experience before we begin, rather than barrelling on down that road. Additionally, I don't feel as though the Install Guide is absolutely complete until we've got the index page done. As I said earlier, there is also the consideration of the short release cycle for Ocata." | 17:21 |
| JayF | It sounds like consensus is go with #2? | 17:21 |
| mat128 | jroll, JayF: I like the idea of having the admin-guide in-tree but published inside of the developer docs and/or install-guide | 17:21 |
| jroll | JayF: sounds like it to me | 17:22 |
| rloo | if we eventually want to have the admin guide intree, i don't think it makes sense to move it outoftree and then back in again | 17:22 |
| dtantsur | rloo++ | 17:22 |
| jroll | +1 | 17:22 |
| JayF | So I'll take that action item, and will work to have patches to eliminate the partial information from the out-of-tree guide and link it to the in-tree dev docs by the time you all are back from summit | 17:22 |
| rloo | thx JayF! | 17:23 |
| mat128 | JayF: keep me in the loop, not going to the summit either :( | 17:23 |
| jroll | JayF: awesome, thanks | 17:23 |
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| jroll | any other comments here? | 17:24 |
| jroll | #topic MoltenIron as a sub project | 17:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "MoltenIron as a sub project (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:24 | |
| jroll | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/387418/ | 17:24 |
| jroll | mjturek: krtaylor: hamzy: this is you | 17:25 |
| mjturek | So, we committed a blueprint today for MoltenIron with the intention of getting it under Ironic's governance. | 17:25 |
| krtaylor | sure, molten iron is a tool we wrote to manage pools of baremetal test targets, we've talked about it before and at last summit | 17:25 |
| mjturek | it's currently living in the third-party-ci-tools repo | 17:25 |
| krtaylor | we were wanting to know what ironic wanted us to do with it, we'd love to get input from others, I know several vendors are interested | 17:26 |
| devananda | do any of the CI teams outside of IBM use this? | 17:26 |
| krtaylor | yes, Dell I believe is one | 17:26 |
| jroll | just to be clear - the question at hand is "should molteniron become part of the ironic umbrella (under ironic governance)?" | 17:27 |
| krtaylor | there are a few others that were interested if it had featureXYZ | 17:27 |
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| rloo | have you discussed with CI, about the 'shortcomings' of nodepool? I mean, what about changing nodepool to do what you want? | 17:27 |
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| devananda | krtaylor: that's encouraging. | 17:27 |
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| mat128 | krtaylor, mjturek: we have (had) this requirement but at a much larger scale - nodes, racks, servers, pdus, etc. | 17:27 |
| devananda | rloo: last time I spoke with the CI team, they said that nodepool v3 would include functionality to do this sort of thing, but that was ~6mo ago | 17:28 |
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| rloo | devananda: oh, maybe they have it done now :D (j/k) | 17:28 |
| JayF | Can I ask the flip-side question: Why wouldn't we want molteniron under the Ironic umbrella? | 17:28 |
| krtaylor | yes, but there were reasons it wouldnt work, for us anyway | 17:28 |
| JayF | It's used by ironic 3rd party UI, if it gets superceded later it gets superceded | 17:28 |
| * krtaylor looks at mjturek | 17:28 | |
| devananda | JayF: my only reason to object would be "only one vendor is using it". but that's not the case, apparently :) | 17:29 |
| JayF | I'm not sure I understand any scenario we'd say "no" to the question at hand | 17:29 |
| rloo | i think it makes sense to talk to the CI team, if they are going to do something similar soon, why not just help them get that going, instead of duplicating. | 17:29 |
| * dtantsur is still confused why we say yes | 17:29 | |
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| dtantsur | JayF, it depends on what we imply under "taking under our governance", I guess | 17:29 |
| jroll | right, so the tradeoff is "core team is responsible for it", but it means molteniron is able to publish to docs.o.o | 17:29 |
| mat128 | krtaylor, mjturek: is this only for CI or it's a full fledged cmdb? | 17:29 |
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| devananda | rloo: ++ | 17:29 |
| dtantsur | JayF, e.g. what prevents us taking ironic-staging-drivers under our governance? | 17:29 |
| jroll | (it could have a separate/additional core team, of course, but the ironic team would be responsible for it) | 17:30 |
| mjturek | matt128 currently just CI | 17:30 |
| sambetts | mat128: it is literally a tool for reserving a node to run tests against | 17:30 |
| sambetts | mat128: then giving it back for the next test run | 17:30 |
| JayF | dtantsur: I really wouldn't be opposed to that either, honestly | 17:30 |
| krtaylor | yes, just a tool for managing reservations for baremetal targets | 17:30 |
| rloo | I feel like this falls under CI, not ironic | 17:31 |
| devananda | taking it under our governance means the PTL is taking responsibility for it, we need to give time in meetings to the project, and granting election voting rights to contributors to that project | 17:31 |
| dtantsur | JayF, me neither. we don't include it, because we don't want to assume the same level of support as for our production drivers. | 17:31 |
| krtaylor | rloo, it is very ironic specific | 17:31 |
| jlvillal | maybe related. Today there was a thing with nodepool using ironic discussion: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-10-17-15.00.log.html | 17:31 |
| jroll | btw, this is the molteniron repo: | 17:31 |
| jroll | #link https://github.com/openstack/third-party-ci-tools/tree/master/nodepool/molteniron | 17:31 |
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| jroll | roughly 1500-2000 LOC, seems pretty simple | 17:32 |
| krtaylor | the third-party-ci-tools repo doesnt require tests,so we are looking to have automated tests,etc so a new project or a subproject is the question | 17:32 |
| rloo | krtaylor: you're going to be at the summit -- would you be willing to talk to CI folks about molteniron, see where/if nodepool works or if there is common ground? | 17:32 |
| dtantsur | I guess I'm just -0 to all inclusions, until we figure out what "being under our umbrella" fully requires and implies | 17:32 |
| jroll | I seem to remember quite a few talks between these folks an infra folks, but maybe I'm thinking of something else | 17:33 |
| rloo | dtantsur: to future inclusions? since we already have a few things under the ironic umbrella :) | 17:33 |
| krtaylor | yes, there have been several discussions, nodepool and also zuul were proposed | 17:33 |
| JayF | dtantsur: what devananda said above matches what I was thinking it meant; and tbh I don't like splitting a hair to say if you work on something like molteniron you get less rights than someone who works on inspector, bifrost, ipa, ironic, etc | 17:33 |
| dtantsur | rloo, well, we can always reconsider them too.. I don't remember anything feeling foreign, but maybe it's only me | 17:33 |
| JayF | dtantsur: I guess I'm just more +0 by default :D | 17:33 |
| rloo | dtantsur: i agree with you wrt knowing more specifically, what it means for things under the ironic umbrella | 17:34 |
| dtantsur | yeah, I'm only asking because we have some problems with ironic-staging-drivers, which could be worked around by it being under an official project | 17:34 |
| jroll | dtantsur: what sort of problems? | 17:34 |
| dtantsur | and this is not something out of blue, that's our drivers, developed by ironic contributors and reviewed by ironic core reviewers (a subset of them) | 17:34 |
| dtantsur | jroll, no docs, no release support, no i18n (to name a few) | 17:35 |
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| jroll | nod | 17:35 |
| lucasagomes | a better guide on what should be under the Ironic umbrella and what not would be very welcome | 17:35 |
| dtantsur | I've gone through all this with ironic-discoverd /me is nostalgic | 17:35 |
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| lucasagomes | but I also think that we probably should check nodepool first, if they are willing to extend it to support baremetal nodes we probably should help 'em out | 17:35 |
| * mat128 doesnt understand why projects not under governance can't have docs, but here is not the place for this | 17:35 | |
| rloo | seems like openstack should have a general guide, i don't know that ironic is special from other umbrellas | 17:35 |
| dtantsur | so, I'm not against "why not" approach, I just want it stated officially :) | 17:35 |
| krtaylor | re: nodepool, we could bring that up again, but generally there has not been much traction for third-party (non-infra) CI test changes | 17:36 |
| lucasagomes | mat128, it can, but not official under openstack (we use http://readthedocs.org) | 17:36 |
| JayF | mat128: being in the "big tent" gives you access to shared resources, such as docs | 17:36 |
| jroll | nodepool is also designed to only speak to nova, AIUI (intentionally such) | 17:36 |
| TheJulia | My understanding is that will be changing over the next six months or so | 17:36 |
| devananda | jroll: IIUC, that's changing in v3... | 17:36 |
| mjturek | right, the changes don't necessarily fit there. It's something we could propose, but we have a working solution sitting here | 17:36 |
| jroll | ok, I had not heard that yet | 17:37 |
| sambetts | so the problem with nodepool is that it is designed to solve a different problem, e.g. its designed to provide nodes to Zuul as test slaves, but we want to provide BM resources for the next layer down, i.e the instances created during the tests | 17:37 |
| jroll | but yes, in the meantime molteniron is useful for third party CI people | 17:37 |
| krtaylor | yes, thats what we've found | 17:37 |
| devananda | so we have two discussions going in parallel: a) should this CI tool be embraced, or deffered until nodepool gets better? b) should it be part of the ironic project team umbrella, and thereby get access to shared resources, give contributors voting rights, etc | 17:37 |
| mat128 | sambetts: so molteniron is about delegating hardware resources to a test run so you don't have resource clash | 17:38 |
| sambetts | mat128: yes | 17:38 |
| mat128 | sounds like our day to day problems from 7-8 years ago :) | 17:38 |
| mat128 | with a physical lab | 17:38 |
| krtaylor | exactly, and as late as possible | 17:38 |
| mat128 | got it then | 17:38 |
| devananda | I think that, regardless of (a), if molteniron is used today by two of our driver maintainers (ibm and dell) | 17:38 |
| JayF | devananda: and maybe c) What exactly does it mean to be a part of Bare Metal governance, and if we need clear guidlines about what is in/out | 17:38 |
| devananda | and the designated driver maintainers are the ones working on molteniron already | 17:38 |
| devananda | it's already being developd by the ironic project team and I don't see a reason not to include the project | 17:39 |
| mariojv | i think i'd be +1 to this if the mission of MoltenIron were something more general, instead of solely testing/ci. this would definitely be easier to decide if we had clearer definitions of what is/is not under our umbrella | 17:39 |
| devananda | JayF: what it means is quite clear, from a TC / Foundation perspective | 17:39 |
| dtantsur | devananda, do you propose that as a general guidance? | 17:39 |
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| devananda | JayF: voting rights in the PTL and TC election, access to cross-project resources, access to summit / PTG time (as determined by the PTL) | 17:40 |
| mat128 | mariojv: "Delegate parts of a physical lab to an Ironic installation" sounds generic enough | 17:40 |
| rloo | it may be clear from a TC/Foundation perspective but it isn't clear to us :-( | 17:40 |
| JayF | devananda: I agree with your logic about why it should be included. My question would then be: why wouldn't something like ironic-staging-drivers be included under the same logic? | 17:40 |
| devananda | rloo: ^ does that help? | 17:40 |
| jroll | devananda: the TC/foundation doesn't mandate what is part of a project team's governance, though, that's completely up to the project team | 17:40 |
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| devananda | JayF: because, AIUI, the core team prevoiusly said "we do not want to accept responsibility for maintaining these drivers" | 17:40 |
| devananda | jroll: indeed | 17:41 |
| rloo | krtaylor: so you want to be under the ironic umbrella why again? | 17:41 |
| jroll | some of the core team said that, yes | 17:41 |
| lucasagomes | yeah, all cores in the staging-drivers are also cores in ironic (/me don't want to diverge this conversation to it tho) | 17:41 |
| rloo | krtaylor: i mean, molteniron is being used as-is now. what will change (what do you want to have changed) if it is under our umbrella | 17:41 |
| sambetts | For those interested, https://www.openstack.org/summit/barcelona-2016/summit-schedule/events/16921/cross-project-workshops-where-to-draw-the-line-for-proprietary-code-with-drivers | 17:41 |
| sambetts | dtantsur: ^ | 17:42 |
| krtaylor | rloo, hehheh, we are splitting out of third-party-ci-tools repo, so either a nongoverned project or the ironic umbrella made sense to us | 17:42 |
| dtantsur | devananda, well, then "accept responsibility" is also an argument, right? | 17:42 |
| rloo | krtaylor: and i may have missed it. why are you splitting out? getting kicked out? | 17:42 |
| dtantsur | do we want to accept responsibility for this new thing? | 17:42 |
| krtaylor | rloo, no, not kicked out, we want to add tests, docs, ect | 17:42 |
| mjturek | right, it's hard for us to manage enhancements under it as well. | 17:43 |
| krtaylor | rloo, third-party-ci-tools repo is tests noop | 17:43 |
| rloo | krtaylor: ok. i think this is worth talking to infra folks about first. | 17:43 |
| dtantsur | fwiw you can add tests (even dsvm) for non-official projects | 17:43 |
| jroll | to be clear, you can use openstack... what dtantsur said | 17:43 |
| devananda | krtaylor: splitting the project code into a separate repository seems orthogonal to whether that is under ironic project team governance | 17:43 |
| dtantsur | ironic-staging-drivers has a dsvm job, for example | 17:43 |
| mat128 | devananda: ++ | 17:43 |
| devananda | krtaylor: you can easily create your own project, add tests, publish docs to readthedocs, etc | 17:43 |
| jroll | so maybe we should do this: | 17:44 |
| jroll | molteniron friends can work on making their own repo with tests running and such | 17:44 |
| devananda | and then very easily be added to ironic governance at any later time | 17:44 |
| jroll | while we go to the summit and bikeshed about the governance topic | 17:44 |
| krtaylor | devananda, agreed | 17:44 |
| devananda | jroll: ++ | 17:44 |
| mjturek | jroll: sounds reasonable to me! | 17:44 |
| TheJulia | jroll: ++ | 17:44 |
| JayF | I mean, I disagree | 17:44 |
| sambetts | sounds good | 17:44 |
| jroll | and send summary to the ML for those not at the summit | 17:44 |
| dtantsur | jroll++ | 17:44 |
| rloo | jroll: and talk to infra folks about molteniron | 17:44 |
| JayF | because I'd like people not at the summit to have input into the governance topic | 17:44 |
| jroll | and continue the conversation there | 17:44 |
| * jroll will talk in full thoughts | 17:45 | |
| lucasagomes | jroll, agree... maybe we should talk there and then ML the outcome | 17:45 |
| dtantsur | maybe we can start with the ML, then continue in person, then again the ML? | 17:45 |
| mat128 | JayF: we should have a virtual summit :) | 17:45 |
| dtantsur | to not exclude JayF and mat128 from the topic? | 17:45 |
| jroll | rewritten: molteniron friends can work on making their own repo with tests running and such, while we go to the summit and bikeshed about the governance topic, and send summary to the ML for those not at the summit, and continue the conversation there | 17:45 |
| krtaylor | that seems reasonable, mjturek you agree? | 17:45 |
| mjturek | +1 | 17:45 |
| lucasagomes | jroll, +1 | 17:46 |
| jroll | dtantsur: we could, yeah | 17:46 |
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| * rloo still wants to know what infra is thinking wrt v3, molteniron | 17:46 | |
| mat128 | jroll: I'm fine with that, but unsure if this is what JayF meant. Will let him answer though | 17:46 |
| dtantsur | starting with the ML could help us get ideas from other teams | 17:46 |
| dtantsur | e.g. neutron folks definitely have a different view ;) | 17:46 |
| JayF | I just wanna make sure folks not at the summit don't end up having zero input beyond just reading a consensus developed without them | 17:46 |
| jroll | dtantsur: heh | 17:46 |
| JayF | I know how well we take notes for these sort of ... "bikeshed about X" discussions at the summit | 17:47 |
| jroll | JayF: we won't stamp anything | 17:47 |
| JayF | and traditionally most of the decision is made there | 17:47 |
| mjturek | heh | 17:47 |
| * rloo glad that JayF isn't going to the summit so he can stand up for those that don't attend | 17:47 | |
| jroll | but we need to document it post-summit | 17:47 |
| krtaylor | agreed | 17:47 |
| JayF | I am -1 to a solution that ends in "talk about it at the summit". | 17:47 |
| * dtantsur prefers to see summits as "make up our own minds" rather than "set something in stone forever" | 17:47 | |
| jroll | JayF: which solution ended with that? | 17:47 |
| mat128 | dtantsur: nothing is ever set in stone :) | 17:47 |
| dtantsur | mat128, yeah, but I think you get the idea :) | 17:48 |
| JayF | Literally what you just said; the discussion happens at the summit with a summary to the ML. Myself and others not in Barcelona are going to be missing a whole truckload of context. | 17:48 |
| JayF | I mean, if that's what the majority says, it is what it is | 17:48 |
| jroll | JayF: "and continue the conversation there" (there == ML) | 17:48 |
| jroll | ... | 17:48 |
| JayF | but especially for governance things we need to ask how open it is to have the bulk of the conversation in aplace that requires $$$$ to attend | 17:48 |
| dtantsur | my version: molteniron friends can work on making their own repo with tests running and such, while we go to the summit and bikeshed about the governance topic, and propose a summary for further discussion to ironic-specs | 17:48 |
| mat128 | ^ i like that wording | 17:49 |
| rloo | JayF: what's the use of going to the summit then, if not to have discussions etc? | 17:49 |
| mat128 | less interepretation | 17:49 |
| jroll | rloo++ | 17:49 |
| jroll | JayF: it sounds like you're saying we shouldn't discuss anything at the summit | 17:49 |
| jroll | or anything important, at least | 17:49 |
| mariojv | i'm +1 to dtantsur's suggestion, as someone not going to the summit. we can still have input there at least | 17:50 |
| JayF | I'm saying, especially for governance stuff, we should be careful to ensure the conversations happen in a place where everyone has an equal voice. | 17:50 |
| JayF | I clearly wouldn't feel so strongly this way if I was going to the summit | 17:50 |
| mariojv | if it's something really important that's being discussed like governance, maybe require a stricter threshold for passing it, like 4 +2s | 17:50 |
| JayF | but I'm glad to have this experience to consider next time I *am* there hiow folks who are excluded might feel | 17:50 |
| devananda | JayF: it's the nature / purpose of the summit that important discussions happen | 17:50 |
| rloo | look, nothing gets totally passed at the summit. or shouldn't. i hope whatever was discussed/decided upon, is reflected in some patch that people can comment on post-summit | 17:51 |
| devananda | rloo: ++ | 17:51 |
| lucasagomes | rloo, yeah | 17:51 |
| jroll | +1 | 17:51 |
| dtantsur | that's why I propose an ironic-specs patch (or docs or whatever) later on | 17:51 |
| rloo | and if that isn't the case, please point it out | 17:51 |
| devananda | I don't think anyone has said we're going to decide once-and-for-all on anything at the summit | 17:51 |
| jroll | we can't just restrict discussions because folks may miss context, IMO | 17:51 |
| jroll | now, I'm totally +2 on starting the discussion now, in the ML | 17:52 |
| jroll | but I don't want to be the one to start that thread and then go on vacation for the week | 17:52 |
| devananda | but we can't NOT use that time to discuss important things -- it is the time with peak mass of people involved in the project | 17:52 |
| devananda | even this IRC meeting doesn't have every contributor, and for some years, we didn't even have every core here, because of timezone differences | 17:53 |
| jroll | (and still don't) | 17:53 |
| devananda | this is why TC uses gerrit | 17:53 |
| JayF | This IRC meeting is at least logged in its entirety. That's not true of summit sessions. At this point, it doesn't matter though, the path forward is decided. I just don't like it, and that's OK. | 17:54 |
| devananda | and requires every motion be posted for a certain number of days, and discussed in at least one meeting, before being passed | 17:54 |
| JayF | devananda: ++ tjat | 17:54 |
| JayF | *That's what I care more about; discussions at the summit are more opaque | 17:54 |
| jroll | JayF: like I said, we can start now in the ML, if somebody is willing to do that | 17:54 |
| jroll | other than that I see no alternatives | 17:54 |
| mjturek | jroll: I can start it up | 17:54 |
| mjturek | if that's preferred | 17:54 |
| JayF | thanks mjturek | 17:54 |
| jroll | mjturek: thanks | 17:55 |
| jroll | however | 17:55 |
| TheJulia | 5 minute warning | 17:55 |
| jroll | I would like the ML conversation to be around "what should and should not be in ironic's governance" | 17:55 |
| jroll | not "should molteniron be there" | 17:55 |
| mjturek | ahhh sorry | 17:55 |
| jroll | mjturek: you're still welcome to start that discussion, of course | 17:55 |
| jroll | just pointing out that's the real question here | 17:56 |
| jroll | going to move to open discussion in case there's anything else, thanks TheJulia | 17:56 |
| mjturek | jroll: sure, I'll post to the ML later | 17:56 |
| jroll | #topic open discussion | 17:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:56 | |
| jroll | mjturek: thanks | 17:56 |
| lucasagomes | so the doodle about the meetup in barcelona is here: http://doodle.com/poll/56qkr5rsxu447acr | 17:56 |
| lucasagomes | should I send it to the ML as well ? | 17:56 |
| jroll | lucasagomes: can't hurt | 17:56 |
| lucasagomes | jroll, ack, will do after the meeting | 17:56 |
| krtaylor | lucasagomes, nice | 17:57 |
| lucasagomes | so ppl willing to attend the meeting, please vote for the best date at | 17:57 |
| lucasagomes | #link http://doodle.com/poll/56qkr5rsxu447acr | 17:57 |
| dtantsur | lucasagomes, I'd wish it has "tentative" option | 17:57 |
| * lucasagomes is not doodle expert | 17:57 | |
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| lucasagomes | dtantsur, I can edit it and try to add | 17:57 |
| jlvillal | lucasagomes: Is that assuming in the evening? | 17:58 |
| dtantsur | lucasagomes, yeah, it's somewhere in "advanced" options | 17:58 |
| lucasagomes | jlvillal, yes | 17:58 |
| * lucasagomes should add it to the description | 17:58 | |
| lucasagomes | dtantsur, I will take a look | 17:58 |
| lucasagomes | that said, it's not guaranteed that we get a venue. I got some indications of possible ones and I will try to make it happen | 17:59 |
| lucasagomes | if not we just gather together at the summit and go to a pub or something :-) | 17:59 |
| dtantsur | ++ | 17:59 |
| jroll | ++ | 17:59 |
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| jroll | alright, that's time, thanks everyone | 17:59 |
| jroll | #endmeeting | 17:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:00 | |
| lucasagomes | ty | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Oct 17 17:59:59 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ironic/2016/ironic.2016-10-17-17.00.html | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ironic/2016/ironic.2016-10-17-17.00.txt | 18:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ironic/2016/ironic.2016-10-17-17.00.log.html | 18:00 |
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