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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: gerrit has been restarted to clear a problem with its event stream. change events between 13:09 and 13:36 utc should be rechecked or have approval votes reapplied as needed to trigger jobs | 13:47 | |
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| ttx | o/ | 15:00 |
|---|---|---|
| NikitaKonovalov | hi | 15:00 |
| krotscheck | #startmeeting StoryBoard | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Apr 27 15:00:38 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is krotscheck. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'storyboard' | 15:00 |
| krotscheck | hey hey | 15:00 |
| ttx | ohai all | 15:01 |
| krotscheck | Just a sec, I've had some traffic issues this morning and am still getting situatied. | 15:01 |
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| ttx | Filled the SB@YVR etherpad with some rancom braindump | 15:01 |
| ttx | random even | 15:01 |
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| krotscheck | Agenda: | 15:03 |
| krotscheck | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/StoryBoard#Agenda | 15:03 |
| krotscheck | #topic Actinons from last week | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actinons from last week (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 15:03 | |
| krotscheck | Nothing. | 15:03 |
| krotscheck | #topic Urgent Items: | 15:03 |
| krotscheck | Has anything come up in the last week? | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Urgent Items: (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 15:03 | |
| krotscheck | ping?j | 15:03 |
| NikitaKonovalov | nothing that I've noticed | 15:03 |
| krotscheck | Well, subscriptions turned out to not be working, so I fixed that. | 15:04 |
| krotscheck | #topic User Feedback | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "User Feedback (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 15:04 | |
| NikitaKonovalov | krotscheck: can you share the etherpad link again please | 15:04 |
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| krotscheck | I got a note from a team internal to HP that's interested in using a "Topic Tracker that means we don't have to enter bugs twice in upstream and downstream" | 15:05 |
| krotscheck | NikitaKonovalov: This one? https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/storyboard-vancouver-may-2015 | 15:05 |
| NikitaKonovalov | yes, thanks | 15:05 |
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| krotscheck | I told them about storyboard. I'm starting to think that if we're going to keep storyboard alive, the federation piece may be a good lifeline | 15:06 |
| krotscheck | Any other user feedback? | 15:06 |
| yolanda | hi, just joining, sorry | 15:06 |
| ttx | it definitely is a selling point | 15:06 |
| yolanda | did i miss something important? | 15:06 |
| ttx | (federation) | 15:06 |
| krotscheck | yolanda: Not really. | 15:07 |
| krotscheck | krotscheck: I got a note from a team internal to HP that's interested in using a "Topic Tracker that means we don't have to enter bugs twice in upstream and downstream" | 15:07 |
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| krotscheck | With that in mind, I'd like to have someone put time into a federation spec. | 15:07 |
| yolanda | HP seems to be quite integrated into Jira | 15:07 |
| krotscheck | But we can discuss that later. | 15:07 |
| krotscheck | yolanda: Yep. | 15:07 |
| krotscheck | yolanda: That was the horizon team. | 15:07 |
| yolanda | so that will be our case in our team now, if we work in upstream we'll need to reflect that on upstream bug tracker and inr our downstream task trackers | 15:08 |
| yolanda | some some integration between SB - Jira could help | 15:09 |
| krotscheck | #topic Discussion: What questions do we need to have answered in Vancouver? | 15:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discussion: What questions do we need to have answered in Vancouver? (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 15:09 | |
| ttx | Dumped a few notes on the economics of the discussion | 15:09 |
| krotscheck | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/storyboard-vancouver-may-2015 | 15:09 |
| ttx | not properly questions, but where I think the decision hinges | 15:10 |
| krotscheck | ttx: Those are good questions. | 15:10 |
| yolanda | so i had questions from related people these weeks, and all they tend to think that openstack will remain on launchpad | 15:11 |
| krotscheck | Interesting. | 15:11 |
| peristeri | One thing that might be interesting is the migration strategy from launchpad to storyboard. | 15:12 |
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| krotscheck | peristeri: go on? | 15:12 |
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| ttx | One interesting development might be that StoryBoard continues as a separate project, and no longer is totally aligned with openstack needs. We can make sure it doesn't stray too far off, but that way it may ttract external contribs | 15:12 |
| krotscheck | Another interesting thing could be a "StoryBoard as a Service" platform. | 15:13 |
| krotscheck | But that'd have to be independently funded. | 15:13 |
| peristeri | I see that if there's a strategy, we could have openstack groups expressing what is important to capture. | 15:13 |
| ttx | Where are VCs when we need them | 15:13 |
| yolanda | +1 on that, ease of use will attract people | 15:13 |
| yolanda | but krotscheck, that's a relevant feature, needs dedicated resources for sure | 15:13 |
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| krotscheck | peristeri: We have a strategy, though it has been poorly communicated. After we get 1.2 done, the 'floodgates' were supposed to be open for projects to start moving over, based on their own needs. | 15:14 |
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| krotscheck | Ok, so we have a lot of different angles from which we can attach this topic, which one do we start with? I'm thinking that whether or not the project is viable is largely dependent on whether OpenSTack continues to use it. | 15:16 |
| peristeri | krotscheck, I see, changing to a more iterative approach might be less stressful and less cognitive load. | 15:16 |
| krotscheck | Because, quite frankly, without OpenStack wanting it, HP's going to ask some serious questions. | 15:16 |
| ttx | Been proposing a "task tracking for openstack" on the infra planning etherpad | 15:16 |
| krotscheck | peristeri: You mean: Pick a project, meet their needs, move to the next project? | 15:17 |
| ttx | There (if accepted) we show off the current state | 15:17 |
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| ttx | and how far we expect to be in 6 months based in commitments | 15:17 |
| ttx | Same for the Maniphest option | 15:17 |
| ttx | (see who commits to support that) | 15:17 |
| yolanda | ttx, Maniphest? what's taht? | 15:18 |
| yolanda | a new alternative? | 15:18 |
| ttx | Phabricator's task tracker | 15:18 |
| peristeri | krotscheck, yes. Start with one of the more isolated ones such as oslo (fewer dependencies) | 15:18 |
| yolanda | ah ok | 15:18 |
| krotscheck | ttx: I'm not certain that that's a good idea. Most of the work has been done on the backend, and we'd be showing frontend things that haven't really changed much since Paris. People respond to pretty things. | 15:18 |
| ttx | true | 15:18 |
| krotscheck | Fact is that the future of storyboard is entirely out of our hands. | 15:20 |
| krotscheck | I mean yeah, we can keep hacking on it in our spare time, but unless openstack uses it, we won't get paid to do so. | 15:20 |
| krotscheck | And that decision lies, ultimately, with the board and the TC> | 15:21 |
| yolanda | krotscheck, agree, having dedication on free time won't take project anywhere | 15:21 |
| yolanda | need justification to work on it | 15:21 |
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| yolanda | for HP side, having SB adopted as Storyboard, and provide integration with Jira of some sort, could be a win | 15:22 |
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| yolanda | SB adopted into Openstack i mean | 15:23 |
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| krotscheck | If JIRA has an API, we could set it as a federated upstream. | 15:23 |
| yolanda | it has, we've done some automation inside | 15:23 |
| krotscheck | Ok, so that's an avenue we can explore. | 15:24 |
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| krotscheck | This suggests that the next storyboard planning meeting is going to be "Survival features". Things we need to even compete. | 15:24 |
| yolanda | :) | 15:25 |
| krotscheck | Ok, so let's go back to what we need to ask in Vancouver. | 15:26 |
| krotscheck | So: Is storyboard going to continue to be used? | 15:27 |
| krotscheck | I think the answer to that is "Yes until an alternative is found" | 15:27 |
| krotscheck | (And it could be that an alternative is never found) | 15:27 |
| ttx | ack | 15:27 |
| yolanda | if that is the answer, i'd ask for "resources dedicated to StoryBoard" | 15:28 |
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| krotscheck | Right. Because the status of StoryBoard "right now" is "used by infra and we're anticipating more teams start adopting us in Liberty" | 15:28 |
| krotscheck | And that hasn't really changed. | 15:28 |
| yolanda | and who is really dedicated to that, paid for? Aleksei and NIkita? | 15:29 |
| krotscheck | What has changed is that members of the Board have started to ask for things that storyboard won't support without additional resources, and have asked the question of "Why not something else" | 15:29 |
| krotscheck | NikitaKonovalov: I agree with what you're writing in the etherpad right now. | 15:29 |
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| ttx | krotscheck: that sounds a bit inconsistent though | 15:30 |
| krotscheck | Quote: "If StoryBoard is going to be developed further the feature planing should be done more granually. (Having a huge search spec is great, but noone is willing to implement that)" | 15:30 |
| krotscheck | ttx: What do you mean? | 15:30 |
| ttx | asking for more features without providing more resources | 15:30 |
| krotscheck | ttx: Isn't that a regular management tactic though? I don't want to pay for the features I need, can't I use open source? | 15:31 |
| ttx | those board members are supposed to know better, but meh | 15:32 |
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| krotscheck | So to NikitaKonovalov's comment, we've spent a lot of effort, maybe too much, trying to get the architecture and the implementation "perfect". | 15:33 |
| yolanda | even using open source an integration job needs to be done, nothing comes for free | 15:33 |
| krotscheck | So we've churned a lot trying to get everyone's buy-in | 15:33 |
| * krotscheck hasn't been good at that either. | 15:33 | |
| krotscheck | But even so, we can't have people building features without discussion with the rest of the team. | 15:34 |
| krotscheck | Ugh, I'm derailing | 15:34 |
| krotscheck | Sorry | 15:34 |
| yolanda | krotscheck, you've done a great work on-boarding people and engage in collaboration | 15:35 |
| krotscheck | So: StoryBoard will continue to be used. It needs more resources. | 15:35 |
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| krotscheck | I'm going to keep working on it, as best I can. | 15:35 |
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| yolanda | i cannot do more than reviews right now, or hack a bit on free time | 15:35 |
| krotscheck | I appreciate aripinine's work, though it'd be nice if I could talk to him and have discussions about design. | 15:35 |
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| * krotscheck has never actually talked to aleksey | 15:36 | |
| krotscheck | (On IRC or in person) | 15:36 |
| NikitaKonovalov | Just to make clear what I mean is we've planed to have SDK, but we had no use cases for it mind when doing that. It resulted in the SDK that is there, but I thing not everyone even here has tried it | 15:36 |
| krotscheck | NikitaKonovalov: .... | 15:36 |
| krotscheck | NikitaKonovalov: Wow. yes. That's an excellent point. | 15:37 |
| krotscheck | NikitaKonovalov: It's something speicfic that Infra asked for, and yet Infra itself is not willing to do the integration work. | 15:37 |
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| krotscheck | Which tells me that if they want to move to Maniphest, they will similarly not bother doing the integration work. | 15:37 |
| krotscheck | which is.... reassuring. | 15:38 |
| yolanda | then it means launchpad forever | 15:38 |
| krotscheck | Yep | 15:38 |
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| krotscheck | Seems to me like we should really set expectations with all of our customers as to what we are going to deliver. It could be that the assumption in Paris was: Oh, the StoryBoard team is going to deliver an SDK _and_ integrate it. | 15:40 |
| krotscheck | And our assumption was "We're going to deliver an SDK" | 15:40 |
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| krotscheck | This seems to me that the ultimate survival feature for SToryBoard is "momentum" | 15:41 |
| yolanda | krotscheck, do you mean, more involvement of the teams that want to adopt it' | 15:41 |
| yolanda | ? | 15:41 |
| krotscheck | yolanda: More.... people are already using it, if we continue to push our way into their infrastructure then it'll survive because our users don't want to put up the effort to integrate a new thing. | 15:43 |
| yolanda | then we should ask for a set of topics that are a completely need to ensure adoption | 15:44 |
| krotscheck | yolanda: That's the roadmap. | 15:44 |
| NikitaKonovalov | yolanda: exaclty | 15:44 |
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| yolanda | ok, show roadmap and prioritize things | 15:45 |
| NikitaKonovalov | the more detailed it is the better | 15:45 |
| krotscheck | Urm. I don't actually think we're going to get that from infra. | 15:45 |
| krotscheck | I think we're going to get that from the openstack teams. Nova, Horizon, etc. | 15:45 |
| krotscheck | Ironic, for instance, really wants security bugs. | 15:45 |
| krotscheck | If I recall correctly, they want security bugs, zuul/gerrit integration. | 15:46 |
| krotscheck | I think that's it | 15:46 |
| krotscheck | Oh, and release management | 15:46 |
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| krotscheck | NikitaKonovalov, yolanda: It sounds like you have very specific requests for this, maybe you can both look at the roadmap and make the edits you're looking for? https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/StoryBoard#Vision_.26_Roadmap | 15:48 |
| yolanda | let me check | 15:48 |
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| yolanda | well, federation is there but unscheduled | 15:49 |
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| NikitaKonovalov | krotscheck: ok, I'll try to add details there | 15:50 |
| krotscheck | Cool, thank you. | 15:50 |
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| krotscheck | Honestly, I wouldn't mind some help on managing the roadmap, I keep feeling like I have these massive things to work on, and as a result it's difficult to get started. | 15:53 |
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| krotscheck | Anyway, I think we've talked about this enough, let's do open discussion. | 15:54 |
| krotscheck | Any disagreements? | 15:54 |
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| yolanda | nope | 15:54 |
| NikitaKonovalov | nope | 15:54 |
| krotscheck | #topic Open Discussion | 15:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 15:54 | |
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| krotscheck | I want to do release emails. | 15:55 |
| krotscheck | Like: Hey, here's a new feature! | 15:55 |
| krotscheck | I feel it'll help with visibility. | 15:55 |
| yolanda | on an independent mailing list? | 15:56 |
| krotscheck | For the moment, probably on Openstack-dev/infra. | 15:56 |
| krotscheck | Maybe a blog? | 15:56 |
| krotscheck | Who's our audience | 15:56 |
| NikitaKonovalov | openstack-infra is a good list for that I think | 15:56 |
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| yolanda | ah, i was just going to propose it, depending on the relationship with infra... have some blog, tweet... | 15:57 |
| krotscheck | 3 minutes | 15:57 |
| krotscheck | The easiest right now is just an email to -dev and -infra I think. | 15:58 |
| yolanda | do we have some stats of usage in number of users, bugs, etc? | 15:58 |
| NikitaKonovalov | could we have the change log in StoryBoard itself and send links to that | 15:58 |
| krotscheck | Setting up a blog and a twitter account gets into foundation branding things. | 15:58 |
| NikitaKonovalov | so people open StoryBoard at least to read that | 15:58 |
| NikitaKonovalov | and probably go and explore | 15:58 |
| krotscheck | NikitaKonovalov: That sounds brilliant. Maybe a link to the project group page that collects all the changes? | 15:59 |
| NikitaKonovalov | krotscheck: as an option ... | 15:59 |
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| ttx | ++ to communicating progress | 15:59 |
| krotscheck | Ok, we're out. Thanks everyone! | 16:00 |
| krotscheck | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Apr 27 16:00:12 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storyboard/2015/storyboard.2015-04-27-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storyboard/2015/storyboard.2015-04-27-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storyboard/2015/storyboard.2015-04-27-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
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