| cyeoh | hey all :-) | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| etoews | here we go | 00:00 |
| etoews | #startmeeting api wg | 00:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Feb 19 00:00:18 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is etoews. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 00:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 00:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: api wg)" | 00:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'api_wg' | 00:00 |
| etoews | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/API-WG#Agenda | 00:00 |
| etoews | #topic mission statement | 00:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "mission statement (Meeting topic: api wg)" | 00:00 | |
| etoews | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/155911/ | 00:01 |
| etoews | the discussion is going well | 00:01 |
| etoews | not really much to say | 00:01 |
| etoews | except... | 00:01 |
| ryansb | Might we be ready for a vote? | 00:02 |
| etoews | rosmaita has a question..."My question is: what is the sense of "pragmatic" in this sentence?" | 00:02 |
| etoews | which ties into our next topic | 00:02 |
| rosmaita | we can kill 2 birds with one stone! | 00:02 |
| etoews | death to birds | 00:02 |
| * sigmavirus24 is suddenly feeling uncomfortable here as a bird with arms | 00:03 | |
| miguelgrinberg | these are big birds though, we need a bigger stone :) | 00:03 |
| etoews | rosmaita do you have a preference on which aspect you want to tackle this from? | 00:03 |
| sigmavirus24 | I know, we'll use miguelgrinberg as the stone =P | 00:03 |
| rosmaita | not really | 00:03 |
| rosmaita | maybe concrete first, though | 00:03 |
| etoews | discuss the abstract "pragmatic" or concrete review first | 00:03 |
| etoews | review it is | 00:04 |
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| etoews | #topic Glance and functional API | 00:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Glance and functional API (Meeting topic: api wg)" | 00:04 | |
| etoews | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/056968.html | 00:04 |
| etoews | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-adding-functional-operations-to-api | 00:04 |
| etoews | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135122 | 00:04 |
| etoews | thoughts and feels? | 00:05 |
| rosmaita | i was trying to explain the discussion to some glance devs this afternoon | 00:06 |
| rosmaita | they feel like we have a simple use case, disable an image | 00:06 |
| elmiko | i like jay's idea, but i think i prefer option C | 00:06 |
| rosmaita | it seems like a lot of extra overhead to create a resource | 00:06 |
| etoews | rosmaita the "heavyweight" | 00:07 |
| miguelgrinberg | rosmaita: I agree about the overhead | 00:07 |
| cyeoh | so I think Jay's is fine where have async calls | 00:07 |
| elmiko | cyeoh: yea, makes a ton of sense there | 00:07 |
| cyeoh | but it does seem heavy to me too for sync calls if the caller can know straight away if it succeded/failed | 00:07 |
| elmiko | agreed, i think that's why i prefer C in this case | 00:07 |
| cyeoh | so although this specific case only handles sync, will it ever expand with other actions which may be async? | 00:09 |
| nikhil_k | o/ | 00:09 |
| rosmaita | cyeoh: no, we have actual tasks for that | 00:09 |
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| rosmaita | (already) | 00:09 |
| sigmavirus24 | nikhil_k: o/ | 00:10 |
| * nikhil_k hi5s sigmavirus24 | 00:10 | |
| cyeoh | rosmaita: ok | 00:10 |
| sigmavirus24 | etoews: fwiw, the other "heavyweight" is using the existing /tasks endpoint for this | 00:10 |
| nikhil_k | Glance tasks are supposed to be user centric | 00:10 |
| nikhil_k | and this operations is admin/oper specific | 00:10 |
| nikhil_k | these* | 00:11 |
| nikhil_k | are* | 00:11 |
| rosmaita | plus tasks come with a framework to make them easy to implemenet | 00:11 |
| etoews | to me (c) sounds like a controller that operates on a resource as per "RESTful Web Services Cookbook" | 00:12 |
| etoews | (section 2.6) | 00:12 |
| etoews | rosmaita nikhil_k do either of you know if that was the intention? | 00:12 |
| * jaypipes likes jay's idea as well | 00:13 | |
| rosmaita | hi jay! | 00:13 |
| jaypipes | heh, hi :) | 00:13 |
| * sigmavirus24 likes jaypipes and his idea | 00:13 | |
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| nikhil_k | etoews: am looking into that section | 00:15 |
| nikhil_k | etoews: reading through half way seems to indicate that it was the intent (or one of the main ones) | 00:17 |
| rosmaita | i concur | 00:17 |
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| nikhil_k | Actaually, I was reading some blogs this afternoon which pointed me to retrospect of the same things | 00:18 |
| etoews | i'm starting to lean towards (c) | 00:19 |
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| rosmaita | i think it is a pragmatic and respectable solution | 00:20 |
| etoews | (d) seems to veer away from the stated intent of that api (async calls) | 00:20 |
| etoews | if the task resource wasn't dedicated to async, it would be a different story i think. | 00:21 |
| etoews | jaypipes miguelgrinberg thoughts? | 00:22 |
| sigmavirus24 | Yeah, I stopped having strong feelings either way a while ago, so while I like jaypipes's idea, I just want this discussion to finish up | 00:22 |
| etoews | sigmavirus24 +1 | 00:22 |
| miguelgrinberg | as I said in the ML, in my view none of the options currently in the table are the best, but of all I like jaypipes best | 00:22 |
| nikhil_k | jaypipes: hi | 00:23 |
| etoews | let me throw this out there | 00:23 |
| nikhil_k | jaypipes: I wanted to ask why your felt so strongly for task vs action ? | 00:23 |
| etoews | how would people feel about (c) being used in other apis? | 00:23 |
| etoews | or put another way, is what we come up with this decision to be a guideline going forward? | 00:24 |
| miguelgrinberg | I will never +1 such a guideline, sorry | 00:24 |
| sigmavirus24 | I think it shouldn't be a guideline | 00:24 |
| rosmaita | i am ok with other apis doing this where appropriate | 00:24 |
| nikhil_k | == rosmaita | 00:24 |
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| elmiko | i'm withi rosmaita, i'd be ok with it where it makes sense | 00:25 |
| sigmavirus24 | It seems to me that the people who already implemented this elsewhere regret it already so that should be a reason to avoid this (or maybe I'm thinking of a separate conversation) | 00:25 |
| elmiko | i also think there is an important distinction between sync/async | 00:25 |
| rosmaita | i think people who mixed sync and async in the same resource are the ones with regrets | 00:26 |
| * nikhil_k wonders if perfect ontology exists for scalable, maintainable, portable large scale computational systems | 00:26 | |
| cyeoh | yea, for sync calls I think (C) is good, when it can be async then tasks are appropriate | 00:26 |
| rosmaita | cyeoh: +1 | 00:26 |
| elmiko | cyeoh: +1 | 00:26 |
| cyeoh | if it is a resource that could have sync or async depending on the operation, then I'd prefer (d) as a recommendation | 00:27 |
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| elmiko | that makes sense to me | 00:27 |
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| cyeoh | but then I guess this part of "pragmatism" ;-) | 00:27 |
| elmiko | hehe | 00:27 |
| rosmaita | cyeoh: you brought us full circle! | 00:27 |
| cyeoh | :-) | 00:28 |
| etoews | sunrise sunet | 00:28 |
| etoews | s/sunet/sunset/ | 00:28 |
| sigmavirus24 | I like sunet better | 00:28 |
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| etoews | i think jaypipes got distracted (i know he has another meeting at this time) | 00:30 |
| etoews | i'm not sure what else to do besides put it to a vote. | 00:30 |
| sigmavirus24 | Yeah jaypipes has disappeared | 00:30 |
| rosmaita | if it's a tie we can call him back | 00:31 |
| nikhil_k | We also had flavio vote for option C on the ML | 00:32 |
| etoews | phrasing.... | 00:33 |
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| etoews | #startvote should glance use POST /images/{image_id}/actions/[deactivate|activate] (aka (c)) to put images into a deactive or active state? | 00:34 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: should glance use POST /images/{image_id}/actions/[deactivate|activate] (aka (c)) to put images into a deactive or active state? Valid vote options are Yes, No. | 00:34 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 00:34 |
| rosmaita | #vote Yes | 00:35 |
| elmiko | #vote Yes | 00:35 |
| elmiko | (gotta say this feels a little weird voting on what glance should do) | 00:35 |
| ryansb | well it's voting on the wg's recommendation | 00:36 |
| etoews | good point | 00:36 |
| sigmavirus24 | (they asked for our input) | 00:36 |
| ryansb | #vote yes | 00:36 |
| ryansb | #vote Yes | 00:36 |
| elmiko | ryansb: yea, exactly | 00:36 |
| etoews | ryansb uses words good | 00:36 |
| cyeoh | yea, when passing it on should probably clarify that its just a recommendation. We can't make them do anything | 00:36 |
| elmiko | lol | 00:36 |
| nikhil_k | #vote Yes | 00:36 |
| cyeoh | #vote yes | 00:36 |
| rosmaita | cyeoh: +1 | 00:36 |
| elmiko | right, vote on what we recommend they do. i guess that's implied. | 00:37 |
| etoews | my bad phrasing | 00:37 |
| elmiko | no worries | 00:37 |
| etoews | the point is well taken | 00:37 |
| etoews | #vote Yes | 00:37 |
| etoews | sigmavirus24 miguelgrinberg ? | 00:37 |
| * sigmavirus24 is abstaining purposefully =P | 00:38 | |
| etoews | imo a No vote is perfectly respectable. | 00:38 |
| sigmavirus24 | I don't feel strongly either way at this point | 00:38 |
| elmiko | etoews: +1 | 00:38 |
| etoews | but abstaining is okay too | 00:38 |
| miguelgrinberg | there's nothing that I find interesting, so I'm not voting | 00:38 |
| etoews | okay | 00:38 |
| etoews | #showvote | 00:39 |
| sigmavirus24 | I think it's #endvote, no? | 00:39 |
| etoews | meetbot y u no #showvote | 00:39 |
| sigmavirus24 | Even so it doesn't work =P | 00:39 |
| etoews | supposedly there's a #showvote | 00:39 |
| etoews | forget it | 00:39 |
| etoews | #endvote | 00:39 |
| openstack | Voted on "should glance use POST /images/{image_id}/actions/[deactivate|activate] (aka (c)) to put images into a deactive or active state?" Results are | 00:39 |
| stevelle | I'm pretty sure I have a sticky with a lead on that voting bug | 00:39 |
| sigmavirus24 | endvote is supposed to show the results but doesn't | 00:39 |
| sigmavirus24 | stevelle: /me assigns it to you | 00:40 |
| elmiko | hmm, that endvote bug really stings lol | 00:40 |
| etoews | #agreed the api wg recommends that glance use POST /images/{image_id}/actions/[deactivate|activate] (aka (c)) to put images into a deactive or active state | 00:41 |
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| sigmavirus24 | elmiko: 99% sure no one voted No ;) | 00:41 |
| sigmavirus24 | Besides jaypipes in spirit | 00:42 |
| etoews | well that wasn't an easy discussion but i do want to thank rosmaita and nikhil_k for reaching out to us. | 00:42 |
| elmiko | sigmavirus24: yea, that was softball | 00:42 |
| * nikhil_k thanks everyone for their valuable input and background knowledge | 00:42 | |
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| rosmaita | so it looks like "pragmatic" means there's some reasonable prior art, like for example the controller pattern in the web svcs cookbook? | 00:42 |
| nikhil_k | elmiko: thanks to you for that reference in the cookbook! | 00:43 |
| nikhil_k | etoews: ^ | 00:43 |
| elmiko | ? | 00:43 |
| sigmavirus24 | one of you e* people ;) | 00:43 |
| nikhil_k | elmiko: sorry, bad day | 00:43 |
| elmiko | =) | 00:43 |
| elmiko | nikhil_k: hope it gets better tomorrow | 00:43 |
| nikhil_k | :) | 00:44 |
| * nikhil_k still trying to digest the winter storm warning | 00:44 | |
| elmiko | oh man... that could be serious depending your locale | 00:45 |
| nikhil_k | no kidding | 00:46 |
| sigmavirus24 | I'm not sure why everyone's complaining. It's -15 with windchill here | 00:46 |
| sigmavirus24 | You don't hear me complaining | 00:46 |
| sigmavirus24 | (-15F) | 00:46 |
| etoews | rosmaita ya. to me "pragmatic" means taking into account the wider context. | 00:46 |
| cyeoh | 35C over here :) | 00:46 |
| rosmaita | etoews: that seems reasonable | 00:47 |
| sigmavirus24 | etoews: pretty sure that's convergence more than pragmatism | 00:47 |
| elmiko | sigmavirus24: about the same here, a tad warmer | 00:47 |
| nikhil_k | sigmavirus24: :) because MSP is always prepared for long and chilly winters! | 00:47 |
| sigmavirus24 | we have an existing well designed API practice, let's converge on that | 00:47 |
| sigmavirus24 | nikhil_k: heh, I'm only in this general region for ~2 years now though so, I wasn't last year | 00:47 |
| cyeoh | sigmavirus24: If the practice is clearly wrong, I think we can recommend what best practice is though (presumably has some advantages) and then expect over time that the older projects will converge to that | 00:48 |
| nikhil_k | :) | 00:48 |
| sigmavirus24 | cyeoh: correct | 00:49 |
| cyeoh | eventually ally the projects are going to have to tackle backwards incompatible changes (and probably in a way that allows them to do it over time rather than big version bumps. | 00:49 |
| sigmavirus24 | pragmatism I think means "without over-architecting an one aspect of an API" IMO | 00:49 |
| etoews | "pragmatic" is a mighty squishy term. | 00:50 |
| nikhil_k | == etoews | 00:50 |
| sigmavirus24 | perhaps we should squash it from the mission statement then | 00:50 |
| elmiko | agreed about squishy-ness, but sometimes squishy is called for | 00:50 |
| etoews | elmiko that's why i left it in there | 00:51 |
| etoews | it's a very subjective term | 00:51 |
| sigmavirus24 | "deferring to best current practice when one is available" | 00:51 |
| elmiko | my understanding is that we are using "pragmatic" to indicate that we will attempt to create guidelines that pay respects to best practices in the field as well as attempting to honor the existing choices that have been made. then making decisions that have the greatest gain with the least pain =) | 00:52 |
| nikhil_k | how feasible is it to apply webservices semantics to infrastructure system resources? | 00:52 |
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| etoews | elmiko i like that take on it | 00:53 |
| sigmavirus24 | nikhil_k: I think that's better asked "how feasible is it to expose infrastructure system resources through web services?" | 00:53 |
| nikhil_k | sigmavirus24: heh, abs. I think we need to un-cloud stuff now ;) | 00:53 |
| * sigmavirus24 wants his almost 3 year old nephews to use requests to make clouds go soon ;) | 00:53 | |
| * nikhil_k finds his magic wand | 00:54 | |
| sigmavirus24 | heh | 00:54 |
| etoews | if anyone feels strongly about the word pragmatic please comment on the mission statement review. | 00:54 |
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| rosmaita | i like what elmiko said above | 00:54 |
| etoews | #topic previous meeting action items | 00:55 |
| * nikhil_k like=then making decisions that have the greatest gain with the least pain | 00:55 | |
| *** openstack changes topic to "previous meeting action items (Meeting topic: api wg)" | 00:55 | |
| etoews | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2015/api_wg.2015-02-12-16.00.html | 00:55 |
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| etoews | *desparately wants to discuss versioning but knows we don't have enough time* | 00:56 |
| cyeoh | etoews: microversioning of apis? | 00:56 |
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| etoews | imo we need to say _something_ about versioning | 00:57 |
| etoews | it's always the second question we get. | 00:57 |
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| etoews | how do we go from x to y? | 00:58 |
| cyeoh | yea, projects should at least think about it early on before it gets even more expensive to do | 00:58 |
| etoews | exactly | 00:58 |
| cyeoh | the nova microversions will probably be enabled next wed | 00:58 |
| elmiko | could we develop some sort of checklist that might help for projects considering a version change? | 00:59 |
| cyeoh | and from what little I've seen of it, the ironic one looks very similar (at least from the user point of view) | 00:59 |
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| etoews | we'll need a survey of the current designs. | 00:59 |
| sigmavirus24 | And time | 01:00 |
| sigmavirus24 | at which point I'm going to grab dinner | 01:00 |
| sigmavirus24 | good night all | 01:00 |
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| etoews | #endmeeting | 01:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 01:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Feb 19 01:00:23 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 01:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2015/api_wg.2015-02-19-00.00.html | 01:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2015/api_wg.2015-02-19-00.00.txt | 01:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2015/api_wg.2015-02-19-00.00.log.html | 01:00 |
| etoews | cya. thanks all. | 01:00 |
| cyeoh | cya! | 01:00 |
| rosmaita | bye | 01:00 |
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| elmiko | later, etoews thanks! | 01:03 |
| rosmaita | yes, thanks etoews | 01:03 |
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| carl_baldwin | hi all | 15:00 |
| mlavalle | hi | 15:00 |
| pc_m | hi | 15:00 |
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| tidwellr1 | hi | 15:00 |
| pavel_bondar | hi | 15:00 |
| carl_baldwin | #startmeeting neutron_l3 | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Feb 19 15:00:53 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is carl_baldwin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| amuller | heya | 15:00 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_l3' | 15:00 |
| salv-orlando | aloha | 15:01 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Announcements | 15:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:01 | |
| mrsmith | G'day | 15:01 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Neutron-L3-Subteam | 15:01 |
| carl_baldwin | kilo-3 is four weeks away. That isn’t much time at all. | 15:01 |
| carl_baldwin | Voting for summit talks is open this week and will close soon. I’m not sure when. | 15:02 |
| pc_m | 23rd I think... | 15:03 |
| amuller | yeah | 15:03 |
| carl_baldwin | That sounds right. I’ve already voted. | 15:04 |
| carl_baldwin | Any other announcements? | 15:04 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Bugs | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:04 | |
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| carl_baldwin | I don’t have any bugs to bring up now. Are there any bugs to bring to our attention? | 15:05 |
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| salv-orlando | not from me. I am not aware of serious issues with l3 agent or dvr | 15:06 |
| salv-orlando | but this does not mean that there aren't issues - it's just that I'm not aware of them! | 15:06 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic L3 agent restructuring. | 15:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "L3 agent restructuring. (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:07 | |
| carl_baldwin | We’re winding down this effort but still trying to get patches merged | 15:07 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/restructure-l3-agent+status:open,n,z | 15:07 |
| carl_baldwin | If you remove the status:open from the query, you can see just how much has already been merged. We’re really on the tail end here. | 15:08 |
| carl_baldwin | Anything to discuss here? | 15:08 |
| carl_baldwin | We’ll just keep moving forward then. | 15:10 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic neutron-ipam | 15:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "neutron-ipam (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:10 | |
| carl_baldwin | How are we doing here? | 15:10 |
| tidwellr1 | new patch here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/148698/ | 15:11 |
| tidwellr1 | *patch set | 15:11 |
| salv-orlando | aloha | 15:11 |
| carl_baldwin | tidwellr1: Thanks. | 15:11 |
| salv-orlando | so I have two topics which I'd like to bring to your attention | 15:12 |
| carl_baldwin | tidwellr1: I will be sure to review it today. | 15:12 |
| pavel_bondar | New version of db_base re-factor, still WIP, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/153236/ | 15:12 |
| salv-orlando | 1) non blocking IP Allocation algorithms 2) what we can reasonably merge in Kilo | 15:12 |
| salv-orlando | I might become quite chatty - so if you want me to move this discussions to the mailing list I'll do that | 15:13 |
| carl_baldwin | pavel_bondar: Thanks. I will review it today. Hopefully others here can too. | 15:13 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: No worries. Let’s see what we can discuss here. | 15:13 |
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| salv-orlando | Ip allocation: https://github.com/salv-orlando/ip_allocation_poc | 15:13 |
| salv-orlando | I've tested 2 non-locking algorithms (that don't do lock for update) | 15:13 |
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| salv-orlando | and compared them with lock for update. executing a lock for update scales a lot better. Were you expecting that? | 15:14 |
| salv-orlando | I kind of was expecting this - since approaches based on retries are conceptually similar to active waits | 15:14 |
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| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: That kind of makes sense. | 15:15 |
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| salv-orlando | however the issue is that lock for update queries suffer of dataset validation issues in active/active clusters like galera | 15:15 |
| salv-orlando | so we need an alternative | 15:15 |
| carl_baldwin | Are both found in db.py in your link? | 15:15 |
| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: the algorithms package | 15:15 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: Thanks, I glanced right over that sub-package. | 15:16 |
| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: that github repo is kind of ok - I just need to add some documentation to explain the algorithms | 15:16 |
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| salv-orlando | I devised two - one based on primary keys. It's rather slow, and also I found out that in active active cluster also primary key violations trigger data set validation failures and hence db deadlocks | 15:17 |
| salv-orlando | so that approach is baddish as well. | 15:17 |
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| salv-orlando | the third one instead is a three-step approach which leverages compare-and-swap and also uses the same technique as the bully election to uniquely determine a winner | 15:17 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: I’m not I understand yet the data set validation failures with primary key violations. | 15:18 |
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| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: basically if you add two records with the same pkey on two nodes you won't know about the violation until the data sets are synchronized, and this will be signalled with a DBDeadlock error | 15:19 |
| salv-orlando | apparently dealing with these errors is quite expensive | 15:19 |
| salv-orlando | I say apparently because I do not have numbers to support a quantitative judgment. But somebody from Galera came to the ML to explain how things work. | 15:19 |
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| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: I see. It seems there is much I don’t know about the active/active clusters. I wouldn’t have expected such a delay. | 15:20 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: Do you have a link to that ML thread? | 15:20 |
| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: gimme one minute to find it. | 15:20 |
| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: I think the issue lies in the fact that the rollback upon a data set validation error is a lot more expensive that a rollback which can be triggered before a local commit (local == your local node) | 15:21 |
| * salv-orlando finding ML threads... please wait | 15:22 | |
| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: this is one thread -> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-May/035264.html | 15:22 |
| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: and this is the second one -> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/056007.html | 15:23 |
| salv-orlando | summarizing - I will post later on today a detailed analysis | 15:23 |
| salv-orlando | but my opinion is: give users a chance to choose the algorithms that better suits their needs. a query which does lock for update works in most cases. | 15:24 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: Thank you. This will take some time to review. | 15:24 |
| salv-orlando | And also provide support for DBDeadlock failures when doing LOCK...FOR UPDATE | 15:24 |
| salv-orlando | But then also offer an alternative which scales decently for people using ACTIVE/ACTIVE clusters | 15:24 |
| salv-orlando | finally, there are two more options to consider from an architectural perspective: | 15:24 |
| * carl_baldwin on the edge of his seat | 15:25 | |
| salv-orlando | - distributed locking at the application layer. We have avoided it so far not because "it does not scale" (as I've heard several times) but because it is a process which is intrinsecally error prone. So if we can avoid distributed coordination, it's better | 15:25 |
| salv-orlando | But if are better off with some distributed coordination, we should use it | 15:25 |
| amuller | salv-orlando: like dogpile? | 15:26 |
| carl_baldwin | Right, up to now, we’ve limited all distributed coordination to what we can accomplish with the db. | 15:26 |
| salv-orlando | - then we can also think of having a centralized IPAM server even when there multiple API workers. This conductor-like solution will greatly simplify the architecture and the implementation of IP Allocation strategies, at the expenses of reducing the level of concurrency supported by the IPAM service | 15:27 |
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| salv-orlando | amuller: dogpile but even memcached | 15:27 |
| salv-orlando | amuller: and if you want to find the best way to make your like more complicated, use zookeeper | 15:27 |
| salv-orlando | or even better, implement your own system! | 15:27 |
| amuller | using dogpile or memcache to retain 'select for update' "like" behavior but making Galera happy seems like such a braindead simple solution to me | 15:28 |
| salv-orlando | this is all for the first part I wanted to discuss (IP allocation) | 15:28 |
| amuller | much easier than shifting our entire locking paradigm throughout the code | 15:29 |
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| salv-orlando | amuller: while I am sure that adding a distributed lock among workers is kind of easy, I am not sure what do you about shifting the entire locking paradigm throughout the code. Anyway, we have plenty of time for in-depth technical discussions, because I think that for Kilo we should be happy to just have an IPAM driver which does IPAM as it's done todya. | 15:30 |
| carl_baldwin | We need to look in to it further. I’ve had it in the back of my mind that distributed coordination or a separate service will be the answer. | 15:30 |
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| salv-orlando | not because it's difficult to code, but simply because we are an opinionated community and reviews can lead to the most unexpected and spectacular results. | 15:31 |
| salv-orlando | anyway this lead me to the second point which is what we can merge on kilo. | 15:31 |
| salv-orlando | for kilo, sorry | 15:31 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: Right, we’ll have to look at this for Liberty. We need to discuss now what we can do for Kilo. | 15:31 |
| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: to cut a long story short I think 1) db_base refactoring that enables optional usage of ipam driver; 2) reference ipam driver 3) other drivers - but I'm not sure if we want to have them in openstack/neutron | 15:32 |
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| salv-orlando | Please do not hate me but I reckon it might be better to move subnet pools out to Liberty. I'm not sure we can get enough review cycles there and the necessary API changes in. | 15:32 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: So far, that matches what I was thinking. | 15:33 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: Are you aware that the API changes are up for review? | 15:33 |
| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: yes I am. But you know how it is with APIs ;) | 15:33 |
| salv-orlando | I have to leave because I have another meeting now - but I want just to mention that I think I'll have the IPAM driver ready by next weds | 15:34 |
| salv-orlando | and then I can move one to help with Pavel's patch review and ensure it gets merged in time. | 15:35 |
| salv-orlando | As with anything that touches the db_base_plugin class that might raise some eybrows | 15:35 |
| pavel_bondar | thanks, sounds good to me | 15:35 |
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| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: Thanks. Would you mind doing a review of the API changes before making any judgement? | 15:35 |
| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: I will. But I sense that you are then still confident to get the subnet pools merged in Kilo ;) | 15:36 |
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| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: I’m not ready to concede defeat, no. | 15:37 |
| carl_baldwin | :) | 15:37 |
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| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: In my opinion the API change is fine as long as it's backward compatible, but I'm not the only reviewer around! | 15:37 |
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| salv-orlando | anyway, I'll review these patches and provide a detailed update on IP allocation | 15:37 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: Who else should I get to review it? | 15:37 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: Thank you. | 15:38 |
| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: markmcclain in the past took interest in all the IPAM stuff | 15:38 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: I will talk to him. | 15:38 |
| salv-orlando | it might be worth to also get armax's and mestery's perspective on the release impact | 15:38 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: I will | 15:38 |
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| carl_baldwin | #action carl_baldwin will talk to Mark about subnet API. | 15:39 |
| salv-orlando | carl_baldwin: cool. Enjoy the rest of the meeting guys! | 15:39 |
| carl_baldwin | #action carl_baldwin will talk to mestery and armax about release impact. | 15:39 |
| carl_baldwin | salv-orlando: bye. | 15:39 |
| carl_baldwin | Anything more on ipam? | 15:39 |
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| carl_baldwin | Let’s get some review attention on the patchs the remainder of this week. I will be sure they can all be easily found from the L3 meeting page. | 15:42 |
| carl_baldwin | #action carl_baldwin will update meeting page to easily find ipam patches. | 15:42 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic neutron-ovs-dvr | 15:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "neutron-ovs-dvr (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:42 | |
| carl_baldwin | mrsmith: Rajeev: Swami: you around? | 15:43 |
| carl_baldwin | Anything to discuss? | 15:43 |
| carl_baldwin | viveknarasimhan alse | 15:43 |
| carl_baldwin | s/alse/also/ | 15:43 |
| mrsmith | I am just getting back up to speed from holiday | 15:43 |
| Rajeev | carl_baldwin: resuming work on HA | 15:44 |
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| Rajeev | and some other patches that were pending but nothing to discuss here for me. | 15:44 |
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| carl_baldwin | Thanks, I see that Swami’s patch merged. Is anyone keeping an eye on the dvr job failures? | 15:48 |
| carl_baldwin | I don’t see any significant improvement yet. | 15:49 |
| Rajeev | carl_baldwin: I think armax's graph will be the indicator | 15:49 |
| mrsmith | Slight drop ya | 15:49 |
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| mrsmith | Last I checked | 15:49 |
| carl_baldwin | I think it needs a little more time. | 15:50 |
| Rajeev | carl_baldwin: agreed | 15:51 |
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| Rajeev | we do have couple of talks submitted, please do vote | 15:52 |
| carl_baldwin | Rajeev: I did see them. Best of luck. | 15:53 |
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| Rajeev | carl_baldwin: Thanks. | 15:54 |
| carl_baldwin | Well, I think we’re about ready to wrap up. | 15:54 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Open Discussion | 15:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:54 | |
| carl_baldwin | Anyone have good talk abstracts to plug? ;) | 15:54 |
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| pc_m | carl_baldwin: Do think we're at a point where we can refactor the VPN device driver to access new router object, vs use VPN_service and agent? | 15:56 |
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| carl_baldwin | pc_m: Yes, I think we can get started on that. | 15:56 |
| pc_m | current device driver -> vpn service -> agent -> router | 15:56 |
| carl_baldwin | John submitted a talk on IPAM | 15:57 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://www.openstack.org/vote-vancouver/presentation/subnet-pools-and-pluggable-external-ip-management-in-openstack-kilo | 15:57 |
| pc_m | device driver has router_id, should we use that to get the router object and then move the methods into the driver? | 15:57 |
| carl_baldwin | rossella_s submitted a talk on L2/L3 agent improvements | 15:57 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://www.openstack.org/vote-vancouver/presentation/neutron-l2-and-l3-agents-how-they-work-and-how-kilo-improves-them | 15:57 |
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| carl_baldwin | sc68cal and I submitted one on IPv6 and L3 | 15:58 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://www.openstack.org/vote-vancouver/presentation/whats-coming-for-ipv6-and-l3-in-neutron | 15:58 |
| pc_m | carl_baldwin: driver needs to add/delete nat rules. Are there existing methods in the router class that can be used? | 15:58 |
| carl_baldwin | pc_m: Some of that might still be unmerged in the patch chain. | 15:59 |
| pc_m | carl_baldwin: OK. Will ping you off line to discuss | 15:59 |
| carl_baldwin | pc_m: It just occurred to me that (obviously) the advanced services can’t have patches that depend on unmerged patches in Neutron. | 15:59 |
| carl_baldwin | pc_m: Okay. | 15:59 |
| carl_baldwin | Okay, we’re out of time. | 16:00 |
| carl_baldwin | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Feb 19 16:00:11 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| pc_m | carl_baldwin: Yeah, just need to see if I should wait more, and if ready, how we proceed. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_l3/2015/neutron_l3.2015-02-19-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_l3/2015/neutron_l3.2015-02-19-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| pc_m | bye | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_l3/2015/neutron_l3.2015-02-19-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
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| carl_baldwin | Thanks, all for your great work. | 16:00 |
| carl_baldwin | We’ve made a lot of progress in all of these areas. | 16:00 |
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| VW_ | any meeting officially scheduled to start right now? | 16:05 |
| VW_ | need to sort out a meeting room conflict | 16:06 |
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| sigmavirus24 | VW_: is https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings#Openstack_Operators_Team_Meeting you? | 16:12 |
| VW_ | no, it's the Large Deployments Team (a subset of the above) | 16:13 |
| VW_ | we are admittedly behind on wiki stuff | 16:13 |
| VW_ | completely not the ansible group's fault | 16:13 |
| VW_ | I'll clean it all up and find us another spot | 16:13 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | yapeng: mageshgv: hi | 17:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Yi_: hi | 18:00 |
| rkukura | hi | 18:00 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: hi | 18:00 |
| mageshgv | SumitNaiksatam:hi | 18:00 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | s3wong: hi | 18:00 |
| yapeng | Hi | 18:00 |
| SumitNaiksatam | lets get started | 18:00 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #startmeeting networking_policy | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Feb 19 18:00:33 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is SumitNaiksatam. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking_policy)" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking_policy' | 18:00 |
| s3wong | hello | 18:00 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #info agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Neutron_Group_Policy#Feb_19th.2C_12th.2C_2015 | 18:00 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #info kilo-1 was released on Feb 16th | 18:01 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/057115.html | 18:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | our next milestone is March 16th | 18:02 |
| SumitNaiksatam | anything else anyone would like to share? | 18:02 |
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| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: Is there a plan to release stable-juno? | 18:03 |
| Yi_ | SumitNaiksatam: Hi | 18:03 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: i think we have a bunch of juno-backport potentials which have to be either backported or are waiting to be fixed | 18:04 |
| SumitNaiksatam | my hope was to get as many of those in before doing the next stable/juno | 18:04 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: Right. Was wondering if there is a target date. | 18:04 |
| SumitNaiksatam | however if you think it makes sense to do the stable/juno now, i dont have any objections | 18:04 |
| rkukura | Lets see after we discuss bugs whether there are backportable fixes coming soon. | 18:05 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: i personally dont have a date in mind, though i was kind of considering this as an asap activity | 18:05 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: good point to bring up, perhaps fixing a date will speed up the backport acitivity | 18:06 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Bugs | 18:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking_policy)" | 18:06 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | we touched on a number of bugs in the last couple of meetings | 18:06 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | anyone wants to report any updates on those | 18:07 |
| SumitNaiksatam | a few fixes were merged | 18:07 |
| SumitNaiksatam | but there is still a bunch that we need to close on | 18:07 |
| rkukura | I’ve added followup questions on a couple that were assigned to me, but haven’t seen responses yet. | 18:07 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: which ones? | 18:07 |
| rkukura | https://bugs.launchpad.net/group-based-policy/+bug/1417206/comments/1 | 18:08 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1417206 in Group Based Policy "GBP: PTG delete at times not cleaning neutron resources" [Undecided,New] - Assigned to Robert Kukura (rkukura) | 18:08 |
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| rkukura | https://bugs.launchpad.net/group-based-policy/+bug/1416527/comments/4 | 18:08 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1416527 in Group Based Policy "GBP: PTG delete errors out" [Undecided,New] | 18:08 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: okay let me follow up on those two | 18:09 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: thanks | 18:09 |
| SumitNaiksatam | hopefully i can get jishnu to join the meetings in the future, so that he can participate directly rather me being a proxy | 18:09 |
| rkukura | I should be able to knock off https://bugs.launchpad.net/group-based-policy/+bug/1417724 soon. | 18:09 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1417724 in Group Based Policy "GBP: Changing L3P of a in-use L2P, does not reflect in change in subnet of PTG" [High,Confirmed] - Assigned to Robert Kukura (rkukura) | 18:09 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: nice! | 18:10 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #action SumitNaiksatam to follow up with jishnub on 1416527 and 1417206 | 18:10 |
| SumitNaiksatam | KrishnaK updated offline that he is working on the bug in his plate, and he should be done soon | 18:11 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | we dont have enough time in this meeting to a complete bug scrub, but if our bug count grows or we are not able to clean up the current ones, we will need to schedule one separately | 18:12 |
| SumitNaiksatam | my request to everyone is to look at the bugs assigned to them and target them for the appropriage milestone | 18:12 |
| SumitNaiksatam | right now i have targeted mostly everything for K-2 | 18:13 |
| SumitNaiksatam | which may be actually be the case, but if its not please target appropriately | 18:13 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | i think we have a “future” milestone as well for anything that cannot be immediately fixed in kilo | 18:14 |
| SumitNaiksatam | or is not considered immediately relevant | 18:14 |
| SumitNaiksatam | any other blockers on the bugs | 18:14 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i dont see any new criticals so thats good | 18:14 |
| SumitNaiksatam | btw, i noticed some issues in the CLI as well especially when pointing to “neutron” resources | 18:15 |
| rkukura | I’d actually like to see more bugs being reported - evidence that the code is being used | 18:15 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: agree, but too many criticals would mean we are not doing a good job reviewing :-) | 18:16 |
| SumitNaiksatam | on the CLI issue, so if you try to creat a group, and point to a pre-created subnet, the CLI will fail | 18:16 |
| SumitNaiksatam | just in case if it anyone tries this | 18:16 |
| SumitNaiksatam | this is because we try to do a validation of the neutron resource in the CLI and the reference to the neutron client is not correct | 18:17 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i will check if there is a bug for this, else i will file one | 18:17 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | anything else to discuss in bugs today? | 18:17 |
| SumitNaiksatam | anyone blocked on anything? | 18:17 |
| SumitNaiksatam | LouisF: hi | 18:18 |
| LouisF | hi | 18:18 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ok moving on | 18:18 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Re-factor Group Based Policy with Neutron RESTful APIs | 18:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Re-factor Group Based Policy with Neutron RESTful APIs (Meeting topic: networking_policy)" | 18:18 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/153126 | 18:18 |
| SumitNaiksatam | did folks get a chance to review this spec? | 18:18 |
| SumitNaiksatam | the Yi_ yapeng team is in full force there today | 18:19 |
| rkukura | I read through it again, and will file a couple minor comments | 18:19 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: okay | 18:19 |
| rkukura | I’ll try to do that by the end of today | 18:19 |
| Yi_ | rkukura: thanks! | 18:19 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i am really hoping that at least at a spec level we close on this by enf of today | 18:19 |
| SumitNaiksatam | *end | 18:19 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: +1 | 18:19 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: okay | 18:19 |
| yapeng | rkukura, thanks, I updated the spec based on previous comments. | 18:19 |
| SumitNaiksatam | everybody else think thats doable? | 18:20 |
| rkukura | +1 | 18:20 |
| LouisF | +1 | 18:20 |
| SumitNaiksatam | we can always give comments on the implementation, but i think the spec has been waiting for a long time | 18:20 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: LouisF: ok thanks | 18:20 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Yi_: yapeng: lets work on this today close the spec, based on any outstanding review comments | 18:21 |
| SumitNaiksatam | mageshgv: did you get a chance to read? | 18:21 |
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| yapeng | SumitNaiksatam: sure | 18:21 |
| SumitNaiksatam | *read/review | 18:21 |
| Yi_ | SumitNaiksatam: sounds great! | 18:21 |
| mageshgv | SumitNaiksatam: Yes, looks ok | 18:21 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ok good, so we have some loose consensus here | 18:21 |
| SumitNaiksatam | thanks yapeng and Yi_ for your patience on this! | 18:22 |
| SumitNaiksatam | oh, and Yi_ you posted a WIP patch: #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/156856/ | 18:22 |
| SumitNaiksatam | thanks | 18:22 |
| Yi_ | as well as https://review.openstack.org/#/c/156776/ | 18:23 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ah sorry, i missed that | 18:23 |
| Yi_ | Yapeng and I also did some manual testing on this | 18:23 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Yi_: sweet | 18:24 |
| Yi_ | following the devstack example | 18:24 |
| Yi_ | for the base cases, we were able to do it | 18:24 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Yi_ yapeng: are there any blockers for you at this point (apart from the reviews) | 18:24 |
| SumitNaiksatam | anything that you would like to get resolved within the team? | 18:24 |
| Yi_ | SumitNaiksatam: so far so good | 18:24 |
| yapeng | not right now. | 18:24 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i know you had questions on the external connectivity | 18:24 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ok | 18:24 |
| rkukura | I’ve got a question on the client library | 18:25 |
| Yi_ | yes, if we can have clear instruction to test external connectivity, it would be great | 18:25 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: please | 18:25 |
| SumitNaiksatam | go ahead | 18:25 |
| rkukura | Will this mean all our current unit tests for the mapping_driver (and maybe others) will depend on a running neutron server? | 18:26 |
| Yi_ | rkukura: I don't think the client code should introduce any new dependency, but I miss something? | 18:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: good question | 18:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: the usual approach would be to mock, right? | 18:27 |
| yapeng | rkukura, depends, UT can mock some data | 18:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | yapeng: yeah | 18:27 |
| rkukura | Right now our “unit” tests depend pretty heavily on the direct calls into the neutron core plugin actually functioning. | 18:28 |
| rkukura | We obviously need to break this dependency, and this BP may be when we need to do it. | 18:28 |
| Yi_ | rkukura: I see your concern | 18:28 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: correct, i think you are also referring to some of the functional tests which are masquerading as “unit” tests :-) | 18:28 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: That’s why I quoted “unit” | 18:28 |
| SumitNaiksatam | those tests are very helpful though | 18:29 |
| rkukura | I’m not really clear on how neutron defines “functional test”, but could our functional tests depend on a running neutron-server? | 18:29 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i would have hoped that we dont lose the validation provided those tests when do this mock (meaning we actually trigger functional tests separately) | 18:29 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: this again goes to the tempest lib usage per project, right? | 18:30 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: Right, I’m thinking we’d move/copy the existing “unit” tests to be functional tests. | 18:30 |
| rkukura | Not really sure if tempest comes into play for this. | 18:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: and run the neutron server for those? | 18:30 |
| rkukura | right | 18:31 |
| yapeng | are these tests belong to tempest instead of UT? | 18:31 |
| rkukura | yapeng: I don’t think these specific tests really require tempest and a full deployment, but they could be done that way. | 18:32 |
| SumitNaiksatam | yapeng: i think the guidance is to move to a model of using a tempest lib, and putting the tests in each project | 18:32 |
| rkukura | Right now, these tests call the GBP API and then use neutron APIs to verify the resources were mapped correctly. | 18:32 |
| SumitNaiksatam | though i am not completely clear on the specifics of that | 18:32 |
| rkukura | We could do that with just the gbp-server and neutron-server, and not a full devstack/tempest setup. | 18:33 |
| Yi_ | SumitNaiksatam rkukura: shouldn't we have a seperated project/BP to tract such a movement? | 18:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Yi_: agreed | 18:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: any chance that you can investigate this? | 18:33 |
| rkukura | Yi_: I agree for the new server, but I’m concern about this BP breaking the existing test strategy | 18:34 |
| rkukura | I don’t think neutron will actually accept client HTTP connections when run in unit tests. | 18:34 |
| rkukura | But I could be wrong | 18:34 |
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| rkukura | If it does work in the current UT setup, then there is no immediate issue | 18:35 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: so if i understand your suggestion, as part of this refactoring, and before we actually move to a different service, your suggestion is move these tests to a “funcationa” test directory | 18:35 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: Maybe - if needed | 18:35 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: and not use the client lib | 18:35 |
| SumitNaiksatam | just keep the tests the way they are | 18:35 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i think i like that as an interim solution | 18:35 |
| rkukura | But the rmd is going to be using the client lib | 18:35 |
| rkukura | The question is whether mocking at the client lib level makes sense with the existing tests | 18:36 |
| rkukura | Or if those tests should become function tests where neutron-server does access client connections | 18:36 |
| rkukura | s/access/accept/ | 18:36 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: in the cases where you are using the direct neutron calls to validate the neutron resources, mocking would not make sense, right? | 18:37 |
| rkukura | I’ll include this test impact in a comment on the BP | 18:37 |
| rkukura | on the spec I mean | 18:37 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: Right, I think the tests would have to change drastically | 18:38 |
| rkukura | And I kind of agree these tests really should be functional rather than unit tests | 18:38 |
| rkukura | So maybe we should do proper mock-based unit tests for RMD. | 18:38 |
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| yapeng_ | was disconnected. I will check the spec comments. | 18:38 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: Yi_ yapeng_, if you guys dont mind can we meet sometime today in #openstack-gbp to close on this? | 18:38 |
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| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: sure | 18:39 |
| yapeng_ | sure | 18:39 |
| Yi_ | SumitNaiksatam: sure | 18:39 |
| SumitNaiksatam | great | 18:39 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i think we need rkukura to provide guidance on this since he has mostly written the RMD tests | 18:39 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: if you have time, please do join as well, but no pressure | 18:40 |
| rkukura | I’ll need to look over thest current tests to refresh my memory | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | mageshgv: i know it will be late for you, so you are excused ;-) | 18:40 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: sure | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: yes, lets not meet right after this, i will communicate offline with you guys | 18:40 |
| rkukura | ok | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | okay lets move on for now | 18:40 |
| Yi_ | ok. | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Floating IP support | 18:41 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Floating IP support (Meeting topic: networking_policy)" | 18:41 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | #link https://review.openstack.org/157298 | 18:41 |
| SumitNaiksatam | mageshgv: thanks for posting the spec | 18:41 |
| SumitNaiksatam | did anyone get a chance to review? | 18:41 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i did a quick read before the meeting | 18:41 |
| rkukura | I have not yet | 18:42 |
| SumitNaiksatam | but did not get a chance to post coments | 18:42 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | mageshgv: per ivar-lazzaro’s comment from last week, i think we need to clarify how the “nat_pool” resource relates to all this | 18:43 |
| mageshgv | SumitNaiksatam: It will be good to discuss here. Last week we did not reach a consensus in the meeting | 18:43 |
| SumitNaiksatam | okay | 18:43 |
| mageshgv | SumitNaiksatam: Right, I feel that nat_pool is not useful unless gbp does the natting by itself | 18:44 |
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| ivar-lazzaro | mageshgv: NAT pool should be the Neutron equivalent of a FIP pool | 18:45 |
| ivar-lazzaro | mageshgv: scoped per external segment | 18:45 |
| ivar-lazzaro | In Neutron, a FIP pool today is a portion of the external subnet, is that correct? | 18:46 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: i believe so | 18:46 |
| mageshgv | ivar-lazzaro: Ah, I get what you mean, but is the nat_pool originally intended to be used this way ? I still really get its use case as it is not used today | 18:46 |
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| rkukura | Is this for SNAT or DNAT? | 18:47 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: good question | 18:47 |
| ivar-lazzaro | mageshgv: it's not used today, but that was exactly the intention | 18:47 |
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| ivar-lazzaro | rkukura: it's for Floating IPs, so SNAT | 18:47 |
| rkukura | Is’nt that DNAT ivar-lazzaro ? | 18:48 |
| ivar-lazzaro | rkukura: DNAT is activated by the "PAT" attribute on the segment | 18:48 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: thats DNAT, right? | 18:48 |
| mageshgv | ivar-lazzaro: thanks for the clarification | 18:48 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: PAT is for SNAT (going from inside to the outside) | 18:48 |
| SumitNaiksatam | per the neutron model, doing the PAT one does not necessarily have to use the floating ip (or at least that was my understanding) | 18:49 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: PAT is Dynamic NAT | 18:49 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: or port address translation | 18:49 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: yes | 18:49 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: FIP are 1:1 addresses | 18:49 |
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| Yi_ | ivar-lazzaro: that's right | 18:49 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: so Static NAT | 18:49 |
| SumitNaiksatam | when we say DNAT here, it means destination NAT, not dynamic NAT | 18:49 |
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| ivar-lazzaro | oh | 18:50 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SNAT is static NAT | 18:50 |
| rkukura | FIP is DNAT since the destination is modified as packets enter | 18:50 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: yes, thats the terminology i am familiar with as well | 18:50 |
| ivar-lazzaro | DNAT for me means dynamic NAT, but thanks for clarifying | 18:50 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | ok that aside, i think the nat_pool will still tie into the current spec, right? | 18:51 |
| ivar-lazzaro | ok that's the thing, the NAT pool is the pool from which you retrieve addresses for 1:1 mapping | 18:51 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i think the current spec is talking in terms of using the entire subnet from the external subnet | 18:51 |
| ivar-lazzaro | 1:1 means that the SRC address gets modified for outgoing packets | 18:51 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | whereas nat_pool provides a way to restrict it | 18:51 |
| ivar-lazzaro | and DST address modified for incoming packets | 18:51 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: is it necessary to do the 1:1 for the outgoing packets (even when a floating IP is assigned)? | 18:53 |
| ivar-lazzaro | the PAT flag, on the other hand, is like the one we have on traditional IPv4 networks at home. N internal addresses are translated on the outgoing traffic into M (with M < N tipically) | 18:53 |
| ivar-lazzaro | and the translation is done by port number | 18:53 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: yes, PAT can be independent of the floating ip association | 18:53 |
| Yi_ | SumitNaiksatam: if it is NOT FIP, 1:1 is not required | 18:53 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: not sure how Neutron does today | 18:53 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: my understanding was that, for outgoing, neutron does a PAT | 18:54 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: but I would guess that a VM with a FIP reaching the outside world will have that FIP as source address | 18:54 |
| SumitNaiksatam | and if floating IP is defined, then it does a SNAT based on the floating IP for incoming | 18:54 |
| SumitNaiksatam | so i think we are discussing two points here: | 18:55 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: and outgoing IMHO. but that's an implementation detail isn't it? | 18:55 |
| SumitNaiksatam | 1. how/whether to use the “nat_pool” currently defined in the model | 18:55 |
| SumitNaiksatam | 2. how do we achieve outgoing address translation when a floating IP is defined for a port | 18:56 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | i think for the later we will have to follow the neutron model (whichever way its implemented) | 18:56 |
| SumitNaiksatam | so we should investigate that and document it in the spec | 18:57 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: note that the NAT pool may not restrict the external segment subnet! It may be a completely different set of addresses. | 18:57 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: okay | 18:57 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | and for (1), instead of using the external subnet, use the “nat_pool” for drawing the floating_ips | 18:57 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: mageshgv: does that sound, right? | 18:57 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: that sounds like the initial intent for that model :) | 18:58 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: which model? | 18:58 |
| mageshgv | sumitNaiksatam: sounds good | 18:58 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: the "nat_pool" object | 18:58 |
| Yi_ | SumitNaiksatam, mageshgv: the current nat-pool in neutron is related wirh LBaas, is that right? | 18:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: okay, is it documented somewhere, that way mageshgv make use of that reference | 18:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Yi_: no, not really | 18:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Yi_: the current “nat_pool” is a place holder, its not used | 18:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | hence the confusion | 18:59 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: the External connectivity spec should do the trick IIRC | 18:59 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: the spec says this: “Nat Policy A pool of IP addresses (range/cidr) that will be used by the drivers to implement NAT capabilities when needed. How and whether the Nat Policy will be used by the reference implementation is out of scope of this blueprint.” | 19:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | we are in a minute over | 19:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | good discussion | 19:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | mageshgv: do you think you have enough information now to wrap up the spec? | 19:01 |
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| mageshgv | I think we can continue tomorrow on IRC | 19:02 |
| SumitNaiksatam | mageshgv: okay sure, perhaps you can factor the current discussion into the spec and the rest of the team can review based on that, and we take it from there | 19:02 |
| SumitNaiksatam | mageshgv: thanks for working on this | 19:02 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Open Discussion | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking_policy)" | 19:02 | |
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| SumitNaiksatam | we skipped the taskflow discussion and the update on packaging | 19:03 |
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| ivar-lazzaro | I would like to bring up a couple of Vancouver talks we are proposing | 19:03 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: yes, we have a bunch of talks around GBP | 19:03 |
| ivar-lazzaro | #link https://www.openstack.org/vote-vanvouver/presentation/taking-security-groups-to-ludicrous-speed-with-open-vswitch | 19:04 |
| SumitNaiksatam | let post the talks on the wiki page | 19:04 |
| ivar-lazzaro | (not really GBP related that one, but still interesting) | 19:04 |
| SumitNaiksatam | so that everyone can see them | 19:04 |
| ivar-lazzaro | Ok good idea | 19:04 |
| ivar-lazzaro | we also are proposing a Lab session | 19:04 |
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| s3wong | cool | 19:05 |
| SumitNaiksatam | all please check the wiki page by end of today for the talks | 19:05 |
| SumitNaiksatam | and please vote :-) | 19:05 |
| SumitNaiksatam | thanks all | 19:05 |
| SumitNaiksatam | bye | 19:05 |
| yushiro | thank you | 19:05 |
| ivar-lazzaro | Me and rkukura are driving this, but it would be great to have at least one more core with deep experience on GBP's SC | 19:05 |
| Yi_ | bye | 19:05 |
| ivar-lazzaro | so let me know if you are interested :) byw! | 19:05 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ivar-lazzaro: needless to say, i will be participating as well | 19:06 |
| rkukura | bye | 19:06 |
| mageshgv | bye | 19:06 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #endmeeting | 19:06 |
| s3wong | ivar-lazzaro: assuming it is voted in :-) | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:06 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Feb 19 19:06:14 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:06 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_policy/2015/networking_policy.2015-02-19-18.00.html | 19:06 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_policy/2015/networking_policy.2015-02-19-18.00.txt | 19:06 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_policy/2015/networking_policy.2015-02-19-18.00.log.html | 19:06 |
| ivar-lazzaro | SumitNaiksatam: ofc :D | 19:06 |
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| mattgriffin | hello HA Guide team! | 21:00 |
| megm_ | Hi, Matt! | 21:00 |
| mattgriffin | hey megm_ | 21:00 |
| *** nickchase has joined #openstack-meeting-3 | 21:01 | |
| mattgriffin | hello nickchase | 21:01 |
| Sam-I-Am | hello | 21:01 |
| megm_ | While you're waiting, the start of the outline is at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/HAGuideImprovements/TOC | 21:01 |
| nickchase | hey, all | 21:01 |
| mattgriffin | megm_, great... going to officially start the meeting :) | 21:01 |
| Sam-I-Am | megm_: ah, i was going to suggest an etherpad for those | 21:01 |
| megm_ | Hey, Nick et alia | 21:01 |
| mattgriffin | #startmeeting HA Guide Update | 21:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Feb 19 21:01:47 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mattgriffin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: HA Guide Update)" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ha_guide_update' | 21:01 |
| mattgriffin | welcome megm_, nickchase | 21:02 |
| nickchase | Sam-I-Am we already had one in the wiki, actually | 21:02 |
| nickchase | from a while back | 21:02 |
| nickchase | I've talked to our HA people | 21:03 |
| nickchase | and they went through what we had and vetted it | 21:03 |
| nickchase | what's there is what they feel will give us good results. | 21:03 |
| Sam-I-Am | cool | 21:03 |
| mattgriffin | #info today's agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/HA_Guide_Update#Next_Meeting | 21:03 |
| nickchase | we can discuss, of course | 21:03 |
| nickchase | ok so I have a hard stop on the half hour, actually | 21:04 |
| nickchase | I apologize for that | 21:04 |
| mattgriffin | nickchase, cool | 21:04 |
| mattgriffin | np | 21:04 |
| nickchase | apparently nobody knows how to read a calendar :( | 21:04 |
| mattgriffin | haha | 21:04 |
| Sam-I-Am | time is overrated | 21:05 |
| mattgriffin | for the benefit of others, megm_, nickchase, sriram, and I had a Hangout on last Tues | 21:05 |
| megm_ | Can't you multitask? ;-) | 21:05 |
| * Sam-I-Am is looking over the TOC. didnt know about the link until now :/ | 21:05 | |
| mattgriffin | Notes added here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-basic-install-steps | 21:05 |
| nickchase | :) I can to some extent | 21:05 |
| mattgriffin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-basic-install-steps | 21:05 |
| * nickchase had forgotten about it until he asked Meg to see if there was already a blueprint (which there was). | 21:06 | |
| megm_ | We also have a blueprint that targets this for Kilo. | 21:06 |
| mattgriffin | we made some decisions on where we think the structure of the HA Guide should go in the future | 21:06 |
| mattgriffin | Sam-I-Am, sorry... should have sent around in a mailing list email | 21:07 |
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| mattgriffin | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/HAGuideImprovements/TOC | 21:07 |
| nickchase | Well, let's just make sure we do that in the minutes today. | 21:07 |
| Sam-I-Am | is there a separate ha mailing list, or is it just a tag on the docs list? | 21:07 |
| nickchase | tag: [ha-guide] I think | 21:08 |
| mattgriffin | nickchase, great stuff so far | 21:08 |
| nickchase | well, megm_ did the starting point and I handed it off to the SMEs so i can't take credit. :) | 21:09 |
| mattgriffin | nickchase, TOC still in progress? | 21:09 |
| mattgriffin | megm_, +1 :) | 21:09 |
| nickchase | the SME's have had at it from a content standpoint | 21:09 |
| Sam-I-Am | so there's still some pacemaker stuff in here | 21:09 |
| nickchase | we should look at it from a writing standpoint and see if there's some stuff we need to look at | 21:09 |
| nickchase | they do use pacemaker. if ... | 21:09 |
| megm_ | Nick, I just added a couple more sections and some details | 21:09 |
| Sam-I-Am | also dont see memcached (which doesnt really HA, but oslo supports hash synchronization among services) | 21:09 |
| nickchase | you feel it doesn't belong, let's talk about what you think it should be instead and we'll go back to them to see what the story is. | 21:10 |
| nickchase | that's why we're having this conversation. if you feel something is missing or out of place let's figure that out | 21:10 |
| * mattgriffin reads | 21:10 | |
| Sam-I-Am | i'm going to add some memcached stuff | 21:11 |
| nickchase | ok, please do. | 21:12 |
| nickchase | if you could add some context on why you think it should be there that'd be great too | 21:12 |
| mattgriffin | i think that's essentially homework for all - review the ToC | 21:12 |
| mattgriffin | nickchase, do these sections correspond with Install Guide sections? | 21:13 |
| mattgriffin | or mostly map to them? | 21:13 |
| megm_ | The Install Guide outline had memcached mentioned for Horizon | 21:13 |
| Sam-I-Am | for the most part | 21:13 |
| mattgriffin | looks like it to me | 21:13 |
| mattgriffin | ok | 21:13 |
| Sam-I-Am | megm_: theres a lot of places where memcached makes sense for performance reasons | 21:14 |
| megm_ | Yes, I basically structured this based on the etherpad that had the Install Guide structure | 21:14 |
| Sam-I-Am | also, apache on top of keystone | 21:14 |
| Sam-I-Am | its sort of performance-related, but also apache handled redundancy a little better imho | 21:14 |
| megm_ | then I annotated for HA based on the old HA guide, etc | 21:14 |
| nickchase | OK, so in the interest of time, what are our next steps? | 21:16 |
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| mattgriffin | review the ToC and update for next week | 21:16 |
| nickchase | great. | 21:16 |
| megm_ | Can we identify pieces of the old HA Guide that are worth preserving? | 21:16 |
| megm_ | Then set up the RST files and put those in? | 21:17 |
| mattgriffin | hopefully we can find some old Guide content to retain in the new structure | 21:18 |
| Sam-I-Am | there's probabably some stuff | 21:18 |
| nickchase | +1 | 21:18 |
| Sam-I-Am | should one person or all of us take that action item? | 21:18 |
| nickchase | but is it in docbook or rst? | 21:18 |
| nickchase | docbook, Iw ould think | 21:18 |
| mattgriffin | that can be homework too for next week. | 21:18 |
| Sam-I-Am | and make notes in the ToC as necessary | 21:18 |
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| megm_ | Yes, although maybe not a lot... | 21:18 |
| Sam-I-Am | nickchase: its docbook now, but we could converterate it | 21:18 |
| megm_ | Are we missing any "big" topics in the TOC? That should be a review priority. | 21:19 |
| nickchase | we should but can I request we postpone converterating it until we work the bugs out of converterating the Networking guide? | 21:20 |
| nickchase | (though I hope to have that fixed shortly) | 21:20 |
| nickchase | (see, I DO multitask. :)) | 21:20 |
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| megm_ | The old etherpad has links to specific HA Guide sections for each topic. We could use that to mark each section as Keep or Replace | 21:20 |
| Sam-I-Am | nickchase: luckily there's not much to do for the networking guide | 21:20 |
| nickchase | +1 on both | 21:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | megm_: TOC first, things we can convert second? | 21:21 |
| mattgriffin | megm_, which pad? | 21:21 |
| megm_ | Okay, but I'm thinking all new writing should be done in RST so we don't have more to convert | 21:21 |
| megm_ | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-basic-install-steps | 21:21 |
| mattgriffin | megm_, yes... TOC first then convert second if needed | 21:21 |
| nickchase | remember that etherpad is NOT the TOC for htis book | 21:22 |
| nickchase | it's only about the install guide | 21:22 |
| mattgriffin | yes. that was just a catalog of main steps at a high level | 21:22 |
| megm_ | I could move the links to the appropriate TOC sections here -- would that be too muddy? | 21:22 |
| mattgriffin | megm_, i think that would be helpful | 21:23 |
| megm_ | Perhaps in each section, just add an item like "Keep <link>" or "Replace <link>"? | 21:23 |
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| megm_ | Are we writing for Juno or Kilo or both? | 21:25 |
| mattgriffin | megm_, as we discussed on Tues, the sections of the HA Guide will handoff to the Install Guide (or other guides) sections so I don't think it would hurt to get started on adding those URLs | 21:25 |
| Sam-I-Am | megm_: kilo makes sense, especially in light of DVR/L3HA | 21:25 |
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| megm_ | Matt, I was referring to links to the old HA Guide here | 21:25 |
| nickchase | (my 430 got moved to 445 so I have another 15 minutes.) | 21:25 |
| mattgriffin | megm_, ah... gotcha. then i think starting on the keep/replace links is good | 21:26 |
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| megm_ | But yes, adding specific Install Guide links is also good. What is the URL I should use? | 21:26 |
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| Sam-I-Am | interestingly enough, wikis do not handle multiple editors :) | 21:27 |
| megm_ | Sam, you mean simultaneously, right? Can you edit the wiki if noone else is in it? | 21:27 |
| mattgriffin | megm_, for the Install Guide, the "basic-install-steps" pad has links to each section for the different services | 21:28 |
| megm_ | Be sure you're logged in -- it logs me out very quickly... | 21:28 |
| Sam-I-Am | megm_: you can, but sometimes changes get squished | 21:28 |
| megm_ | Ah, I see -- okay, I'll add those plus links to HA Guide | 21:29 |
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| mattgriffin | so the action item(s) for next week are to review and update the TOC. megm_ will start to add links to the TOC for content to keep/replace and links to the related areas in the Install Guide. | 21:29 |
| mattgriffin | let's wait on converting until the TOC is done-ish | 21:30 |
| megm_ | +1 on Matt's statement | 21:30 |
| nickchase | +1 | 21:30 |
| * Sam-I-Am is matt too lol | 21:30 | |
| Sam-I-Am | just call me sam, everyone else does | 21:30 |
| mattgriffin | hehe | 21:30 |
| Sam-I-Am | even at work | 21:30 |
| megm_ | Thanks, Sam -- I wondered about that... | 21:31 |
| mattgriffin | :) | 21:31 |
| mattgriffin | any other topics to discuss for this week? | 21:31 |
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| nickchase | I got nothing | 21:31 |
| mattgriffin | cool... ending meeting | 21:31 |
| Sam-I-Am | do the toc! | 21:31 |
| mattgriffin | :) | 21:31 |
| mattgriffin | #endmeeting | 21:31 |
| megm_ | Does anyone know of any specs, etc that we should be looking at? | 21:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:31 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Feb 19 21:31:55 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:31 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ha_guide_update/2015/ha_guide_update.2015-02-19-21.01.html | 21:31 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ha_guide_update/2015/ha_guide_update.2015-02-19-21.01.txt | 21:31 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ha_guide_update/2015/ha_guide_update.2015-02-19-21.01.log.html | 21:32 |
| nickchase | ok, guys, I'm out | 21:32 |
| Sam-I-Am | thanks everyone, things are looking good | 21:32 |
| Sam-I-Am | nickchase: see you tomorrow | 21:32 |
| mattgriffin | thanks all... later | 21:32 |
| nickchase | yep. :) | 21:32 |
| nickchase | later! | 21:32 |
| nickchase | bye | 21:32 |
| megm_ | Bye | 21:32 |
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