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| * regXboi pads in | 14:59 | |
| mestery | Hi folks, we'll start the neutron-drivers meeting soon and discuss summit schedules | 14:59 |
|---|---|---|
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| * regXboi wonders what the definition of "soon" is :) | 15:00 | |
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| jschwarz | soon (tm) | 15:00 |
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| regXboi | jschwartz: nice :) | 15:00 |
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| regXboi | er - fingers aren't working this morning | 15:01 |
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| jschwarz | I'm here to please :> | 15:01 |
| * regXboi goes to look for more caffeine | 15:01 | |
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| salv-orlando | aloha | 15:01 |
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| marun | hi | 15:01 |
| amotoki | hi | 15:01 |
| mestery | #startmeeting neutron-drivers | 15:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Oct 22 15:02:00 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:02 |
| regXboi | moo | 15:02 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron-drivers)" | 15:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_drivers' | 15:02 |
| sweston | Is Salvatore in Hawaii? :-) | 15:02 |
| mestery | #topic Kilo Summit Schedule | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Kilo Summit Schedule (Meeting topic: neutron-drivers)" | 15:02 | |
| markmcclain | hi | 15:02 |
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| mestery | We'll discuss this today, and that's about it since I estimate it will take the full hour | 15:02 |
| regXboi | mestery: etherpad link? | 15:02 |
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| amotoki | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-neutron-summit-topics-distilled | 15:04 |
| mestery | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-neutron-summit-topics-distilled | 15:04 |
| mestery | amotoki: You beat me :) | 15:04 |
| mestery | We have 4 slots on Wed, and 7 slots Thur | 15:04 |
| * regXboi wonders if #undo works | 15:05 | |
| mestery | So very limited compared to Atlanta | 15:05 |
| regXboi | #undo | 15:05 |
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| * regXboi guesses not for non chairs | 15:05 | |
| mestery | The drivers team has taken all the feedback from the original etherpad and condensed it into what is on the distilled page | 15:05 |
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| markmcclain | regXboi: yeah non chairs don't get many commands | 15:05 |
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| mestery | In an attempt to get something manageable | 15:05 |
| mestery | The goal with Kilo is paying down technical debt, per my email to the list. | 15:06 |
| mestery | And we're trying to focus on things which require F2F time in Paris, not things which can be done on ML or IRC | 15:06 |
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| mestery | So, that's the back story. | 15:06 |
| markmcclain | also we've got the tables on Friday | 15:06 |
| mestery | markmcclain: Good point, thanks for reminding me of that. | 15:07 |
| markmcclain | so topics of interest to sub groups within the community fit better there | 15:07 |
| mestery | Any questions so far from people? | 15:07 |
| marun | yes | 15:07 |
| marun | I've requested a number of times that we include time for lightning talks in the schedule. | 15:08 |
| mestery | You mean like taking one 40 minute slot for 5 minute lightning talks? | 15:08 |
| marun | To ensure that those that don't get summit time do get to present to the community briefly about what they want to meet about in the unscheduled times. | 15:08 |
| marun | Yes | 15:08 |
| * mestery thinks on this for a minute | 15:08 | |
| marun | I think that's only fair given how many people won't be getting time due to the focus on community stuff. | 15:09 |
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| marun | time -> time in the regular sessions | 15:09 |
| * regXboi notes: marun: +1 | 15:09 | |
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| amotoki | it is useful to form some small groups or BoF. | 15:09 |
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| markmcclain | so we're very limited on slots | 15:09 |
| marun | That's a poor excuse. | 15:10 |
| markmcclain | what if we kept a backlog of lightning talk requests | 15:10 |
| marun | I think we can spare a single slot. | 15:10 |
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| markmcclain | and if any sessions run short of their allocation we pull from backlog? | 15:10 |
| markmcclain | marun: if the nova/neutron session gets pushed back into our track we'll be in a big time crunch | 15:10 |
| mestery | I don't think it's a poor excuse, rather the realities of the situation, but I understand your point of view as well marun. | 15:10 |
| marun | While that seems reasonable on its face, I don't think it's wise. | 15:10 |
| marun | markmcclain: ^^ | 15:10 |
| salv-orlando | let’s just look at cost/benefits | 15:11 |
| marun | The whole point of lightning talks is that they are scheduled. | 15:11 |
| salv-orlando | the cost is 1 slot = 9% of neutron summit time | 15:11 |
| marun | Those that are giving them and those that want to attend have a time to be in the same room. | 15:11 |
| salv-orlando | what about the benefit? | 15:11 |
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| salv-orlando | I mean my concernis what benefit there will be in talking 5 minutes about something? Merely community exposure? | 15:11 |
| marun | 9% seems a pretty tiny amount to allow the community to focus on what they want to focus on in addition to everything that we consider core. | 15:11 |
| marun | Exposure, yes. | 15:12 |
| markmcclain | marun: what do you propose we cut? | 15:12 |
| marun | markmcclain: good question | 15:12 |
| marun | markmcclain: Do you have a priority listing of the sessions scheduled thus far? | 15:12 |
| mestery | marun: It's on the etherpad we linked | 15:13 |
| marun | markmcclain: Such that you know what would be worth giving up? | 15:13 |
| mestery | We've allocated the slots. | 15:13 |
| mestery | As best as we could so far. | 15:13 |
| marun | You all have been thinking about this an awful lot more than any of us. | 15:13 |
| mestery | Thus, something from there needs to go if we were to do this. | 15:13 |
| marun | I think my point is that community focus doesn't just include the technical. | 15:13 |
| marun | It includes giving people the opportunity to participate. | 15:13 |
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| mestery | Fair point | 15:14 |
| markmcclain | marun: I agree with that sentiment | 15:14 |
| marun | So, olive branch. | 15:14 |
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| marun | There are many that are going to be upset that they don't get time in from of everyone they way they have in the past. | 15:14 |
| mestery | Well, no matter what we do, there will be many people who are upset. | 15:15 |
| marun | I think most would agree that it's a positive change, because we have lots we have to talk about to ensure our continued success. | 15:15 |
| marun | But I don't think it's unreasonable that people still get a limited forum to present why their ideas are important. | 15:15 |
| salv-orlando | marun: I think there will be many people wishing to argue on the “continued success” statement ;) | 15:15 |
| marun | Anyway, I've spoken my piece. | 15:16 |
| mestery | marun: I'm thinking of what we can cut out out now to give a lightning talk slot. | 15:16 |
| * regXboi notes looking at the list of slots, the only one that might make sense to give up is the last one on the list... | 15:16 | |
| * regXboi notes *MIGHT* not does | 15:17 | |
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| amotoki | a question is how many folks would like lighting talks. Does 8 LT slots fit? who can present? | 15:17 |
| marun | I'm not sure why we need a whole session on rpc, frankly | 15:17 |
| marun | amotoki: lottery? | 15:17 |
| marun | amotoki: the logistics are less important than getting the slot. | 15:17 |
| mestery | 6 is more reaslistic | 15:17 |
| mestery | 8 is too manyu for 40 mionutes | 15:17 |
| marun | mestery: we could do 8 | 15:17 |
| mestery | marun: Do you agree? | 15:17 |
| mestery | marun: How? | 15:17 |
| mestery | 40 minutes, time for swapping, 8 is tight, right? | 15:17 |
| * mestery rhymes his way to reason | 15:17 | |
| markmcclain | haha | 15:18 |
| amotoki | From the driver discussion last week, slots with a bit weeker need is "Plugin/RPC API" (a partof API sessions). | 15:18 |
| marun | again, the logistics could be resolved if the commitment is made | 15:18 |
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| marun | it could be put to a vote, frankly. | 15:18 |
| dougwig | 8 only works if you assume no teardown/setup time. which is unrealistic. | 15:18 |
| amotoki | CLI slot might not need a full slot. | 15:18 |
| marun | but let's not focus on that. | 15:18 |
| mestery | Agreed. | 15:18 |
| markmcclain | marun: so folks want exposure for stuff right? | 15:18 |
| markmcclain | what if had slides or page of links to ideas and contacts? | 15:19 |
| marun | dougwig: they do it at pycon :) | 15:19 |
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| s3wong | doing 8 means there is absolutely no time for Q&A --- so it is really just getting the 5 minutes exposure (5 minutes pitch) | 15:19 |
| marun | markmcclain: There is something special about lightning talks for galvanizing interest in your ideas. | 15:19 |
| marun | s3wong: q&a can come after, informally | 15:20 |
| markmcclain | marun: that I agree with | 15:20 |
| markmcclain | but given time constraints | 15:20 |
| mestery | lightning talks have no Q&A | 15:20 |
| markmcclain | just concerned | 15:20 |
| marun | markmcclain: I think it's better than nothing. | 15:20 |
| markmcclain | alternatively we could steal 5 mins of some slots | 15:20 |
| marun | but why don't we take this to the list? | 15:20 |
| salv-orlando | should we allocate a lightning talk on the tail of each session? | 15:20 |
| salv-orlando | or some? | 15:20 |
| marun | Ask if people think it's a good idea, and how to do it? | 15:21 |
| marun | I mean, the value is really up to the community at large. | 15:21 |
| mestery | OK, I think we'll need to allow for some time for lightning talks | 15:21 |
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| mestery | Logistically, I'll figure out how to make it work. | 15:21 |
| mestery | marun: Sound fair? | 15:21 |
| s3wong | actually doing 5 minutes on tail end of each session is a good idea, instead of bombarding community with 8 non-stop talks | 15:21 |
| -amotoki- am afraid allocating the last 5min of each session does not work.. | 15:22 | |
| marun | s3wong: it's not so bad, ask anyone who's been to pycon | 15:22 |
| marun | s3wong: the energy around lightning talks means that they fly by | 15:22 |
| marun | s3wong: no chance to get bored | 15:22 |
| marun | anyway, mestery has agreed to make it work (thank you!) so we can probably move on. | 15:23 |
| s3wong | marun: not bored for sure. wonder if the presentations would stick into people's mind --- but agree we can try | 15:23 |
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| armax | marun: +1 | 15:23 |
| dougwig | s3wong: from my experience at atlanta, 40 minutes was either dreadfully too short, or the session in question could've been 15 minutes. and with some of the contentious slots on the schedule... | 15:23 |
| mestery | Lets move on, as marun indicated, we'll slot this in somehow. | 15:23 |
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| amotoki | +1 | 15:23 |
| mestery | OK, getting back to what is on the agenda, lets look at Day 1 now. | 15:24 |
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| mestery | Day has: Dev Process and Procedures, Neutron split, and CLI/Client lib. | 15:24 |
| mestery | Nothing contentious in there at least ;) | 15:24 |
| regXboi | mestery: well | 15:24 |
| mestery | Seems like a solid first day to move forward with. Comments from people? | 15:25 |
| regXboi | I *could* argue that CLI/Client Lib goes along with the whole REST/RPC/Plugin API discussion | 15:25 |
| mestery | regXboi: You could, sounds like you may? ;) | 15:25 |
| regXboi | no, just wondering if I can create a slot | 15:26 |
| mestery | regXboi: Heh :) | 15:26 |
| regXboi | but otherwise day 1 looks solid | 15:26 |
| marun | I'm not sure what we'll have to discuss around client/cli, honestly. | 15:26 |
| marun | It's a serious problem, no question. | 15:27 |
| markmcclain | marun: imploding them :) | 15:27 |
| marun | But most seem to accept its deficiencies and may not have much to say about what needs to be done. | 15:27 |
| salv-orlando | the client side discussion is more about reconsidering our approach to what we call client now and discussiing hot it could be reworked | 15:27 |
| salv-orlando | regardless of the shape of the API | 15:27 |
| marun | It may be worth floating a proposal for refactor on the ML and see if there are any detractors that suggest a session is necessary. | 15:27 |
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| markmcclain | also we need folks to help align our efforts with the openstack sdk work | 15:27 |
| marun | salv-orlando: fair enough. | 15:27 |
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| markmcclain | the client lib is a consistent complaint we get from users | 15:28 |
| salv-orlando | we probably won’t have even time to talk about usability of the CLI | 15:28 |
| marun | I guess my point is that the point of the summit sessions now is discussion. | 15:28 |
| markmcclain | many still use nova as a proxy because of our client is bad | 15:28 |
| marun | That would imply we need a critical mass of interested parties to participate. | 15:28 |
| marun | And even though I am one of them, I'm not sure we have that critical mass. | 15:28 |
| mestery | That's what summits are for? | 15:28 |
| marun | But if you are sure, please ignore me. :) | 15:28 |
| * marun is sorry for nitpicking | 15:29 | |
| marun | please continue with day 2 | 15:30 |
| mestery | marun: Not nit-picking, I appreciate your input here for sure. | 15:30 |
| mestery | OK | 15:30 |
| mestery | Day 2 (unless there are more comments on Day 1) ... | 15:30 |
| amotoki | at least we need to decide the direction of our cli. it may not need a full slot. | 15:30 |
| markmcclain | amotoki: the cli is one side of it.. we also have the lib side of it | 15:30 |
| mestery | Day 2 starts with a doozie: REST/RPC/Plugin/API | 15:30 |
| mestery | Lots to discuss there. | 15:30 |
| amotoki | markmcclain: yes. | 15:31 |
| salv-orlando | mestery: the last separator should not be a / but a space | 15:31 |
| salv-orlando | REST/RPC/Plugin API ;) | 15:31 |
| marun | I'm sure of the need for REST and Plugin API. | 15:31 |
| mestery | salv-orlando: Ack | 15:31 |
| marun | Not so sure about RPC - what exactly is contentious here? | 15:31 |
| mestery | Nothing contentious about RPC | 15:31 |
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| markmcclain | we have design issues to work through | 15:32 |
| * regXboi wonders if he should ask the async/sync question | 15:32 | |
| * mestery hopes regXboi has had his coffee this morning | 15:32 | |
| regXboi | so... i'll ask - in this block is there any intent to start looking at async operations or is that already in scope and I've missed it? | 15:33 |
| * regXboi is thinking towards multi-region support | 15:33 | |
| markmcclain | regXboi: yes! | 15:33 |
| regXboi | markmcclain: :) | 15:33 |
| marun | markmcclain: Don't those issues more properly belong in the agent refactor discussion? | 15:33 |
| markmcclain | that flows into part of the REST API and the behavioral semantics of the what happens | 15:33 |
| markmcclain | marun: that too | 15:33 |
| marun | markmcclain: We need a common framework designed around distributed system principles. | 15:33 |
| markmcclain | it overlaps with both | 15:34 |
| marun | markmcclain: I'd rather see the agent refactor get more time and include discussion around rpc. | 15:34 |
| salv-orlando | the funny fact is that most neutron operations are already async. Problem is that we’ve got no indication of that anywhere. | 15:34 |
| marun | markmcclain: Or is the goal to provide slack time for rest and plugin api? | 15:34 |
| markmcclain | salv-orlando: right | 15:34 |
| marun | markmcclain: I think I'd rather see those 2 just get 3 slots rather that pretending that RPC needs our full attention there. | 15:35 |
| markmcclain | marun: yes… rpc is fills in a portion of that block | 15:35 |
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| marun | salv-orlando: async, but not eventually consistent :/ | 15:35 |
| markmcclain | I would not look at that block as 3 items needing equal time allocation in the 3 slot block… it's really a weighted | 15:35 |
| marun | markmcclain: fair enough | 15:36 |
| regXboi | honestly, I read it the same way as markmcclain: it's a 120 minute block that can be used as needed | 15:36 |
| markmcclain | distribution and we wanted the ability to flow and 3 slots felt like a natural allocation for all 3 items but 1 slot was not enough for some | 15:36 |
| mestery | See? Nothing contentious about the first slot on day 2. :) | 15:36 |
| * mestery ducks | 15:36 | |
| * regXboi hopes mestery was joking :) | 15:36 | |
| salv-orlando | marun: no need to disturb eventual consistency… suffice to say that there’s no tracking of the operation, expect for what the agent decides to tell us indirectly about it | 15:37 |
| marun | salv-orlando: magic? ;) | 15:37 |
| * regXboi wonders - do we need a slot for adv svc spin out? | 15:37 | |
| amotoki | i think the slots are to dicsuss what behaviors are expected and visible to REST API, so there are many potential topics including tasks. | 15:37 |
| * regXboi is reading ahead | 15:37 | |
| salv-orlando | marun: it is correct to say that we currently rely on the agents being nice and merciful | 15:37 |
| markmcclain | regXboi: we have to walk through the mechanics | 15:37 |
| mestery | regXboi: Surely you jest? | 15:37 |
| markmcclain | and timing | 15:37 |
| -amotoki- wonder where the item on taks is gone | 15:37 | |
| markmcclain | amotoki: tasks is part L2 agent refactor and part plugin API | 15:38 |
| salv-orlando | regXboi: the adv svc spin out poses challenges regarding API design and db management that we need to achieve consensus on. | 15:38 |
| regXboi | markmcclain, mestery: wondering what the end result is supposed to be - but I'll ask that when we get there | 15:38 |
| mestery | Note that IPAM now has it's own cozy slot in Paris. | 15:38 |
| armax | amotoki: what do you mean? | 15:39 |
| s3wong | salv-orlando: agreed, I think adv. service spin out is an important item to discuss with some f2f time | 15:39 |
| regXboi | mestery: yeah, that one still doesn't quite grok | 15:39 |
| carl_baldwin | Did I hear IPAM? | 15:39 |
| amotoki | armax: "task" related topic is related to API. | 15:39 |
| markmcclain | carl_baldwin: yep.. we're actually going to talk about it | 15:39 |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: You did, and pluggable IPAM even | 15:39 |
| armax | amotoki: currently it’s being captured in the etherpad for ‘Resource lifecycle and status representation' | 15:40 |
| armax | amotoki: but that can be moved | 15:40 |
| carl_baldwin | I’ve had IPAM on my mind for a while. | 15:40 |
| markmcclain | instead of kick can down the road | 15:40 |
| amotoki | it is a topic how we manage states of operations. | 15:40 |
| amotoki | armax: thanks | 15:40 |
| regXboi | so... I'll come back and ask on the adv svc spin out (since that's the next slot) - the etherpad doesn't reveal what the expected outcomes might be | 15:40 |
| mestery | regXboi: I think markmcclain indicated what we expect, to work out some details and finalize a roadmap for this in Kilo. | 15:41 |
| regXboi | a roadmap for Kilo or a roadmap for future releases starting with Kilo? | 15:41 |
| armax | regXboi: I guess the outcome is to be determined at the session | 15:41 |
| s3wong | mestery: regXboi made a great point --- for all these selected design sessions, do we have designated people to prepare for presentation? | 15:42 |
| * regXboi is trying to nail down the ambiguity | 15:42 | |
| armax | regXboi: we can start brainstorm on the etherpad for sure | 15:42 |
| * regXboi wonders where he made the point ascribed to him | 15:43 | |
| mestery | s3wong: Yes for most, for others we're working on this. | 15:43 |
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| salv-orlando | s3wong: we might designate session chairs but I don’t think we need presentations or slides | 15:43 |
| mestery | regXboi: Me too actually, I don't know how s3wong made that correlation :) | 15:43 |
| * mestery thinks we should ban slides again | 15:43 | |
| mestery | Because ... PPT | 15:43 |
| salv-orlando | or keynote for that matter, or even openoffice | 15:44 |
| regXboi | so... I'm still trying to nail down an ambiguity - a roadmap for Kilo or a roadmap for future releases starting with Kilo? | 15:44 |
| salv-orlando | it’s just the idea of the “talk” that should be banned | 15:44 |
| mestery | regXboi: Roadmpa for adv svcs spinout? | 15:44 |
| mestery | salv-orlando: +1000 | 15:44 |
| regXboi | mestery: yes | 15:44 |
| markmcclain | mestery: +100000000000 for banning PPT | 15:44 |
| anteaya | s3wong: I think what neutron is trying to do is move away from presentation format, which other programs don't use, and move to discussion format, which is rather the point of the summit | 15:44 |
| mestery | anteaya: +1000000000 | 15:44 |
| mestery | regXboi: The roadmap for both, kilo and the spinout | 15:45 |
| s3wong | regXboi: when you said you didn't know what to discuss in adv. service spinout session --- it implies there has to be people responsible for the actual discussion point --- that's how I perceive it :-) | 15:45 |
| markmcclain | right… we'll someone to facilitate discussion | 15:45 |
| salv-orlando | s3wong: that would setup in an etherpad collaboratively compiled before the summit | 15:45 |
| markmcclain | and probably have a strawman proposal to work from | 15:45 |
| s3wong | salv-orlando: sounds good | 15:45 |
| * regXboi hopes rooms have whiteboards or easels for unconference type things | 15:45 | |
| salv-orlando | I think we already did is for Atlanta, didn’t we | 15:45 |
| mestery | Less leaders, more collaboration? | 15:45 |
| markmcclain | it should be noted that the spinout depends on the results of the discussion from day 1 | 15:46 |
| * salv-orlando is a follower looking for a leader | 15:46 | |
| markmcclain | so would expect changes | 15:46 |
| mestery | Yes, some of this is dynamic, as these types of things tend to be | 15:46 |
| regXboi | hmm, ok I see my confusion... in my head, I'm already thinking of adv svcs as described in the etherpad as an 'M" thing | 15:47 |
| dougwig | M? as in release M? | 15:48 |
| mestery | regXboi: Moar coffee | 15:48 |
| * regXboi doesn't drink coffee | 15:48 | |
| s3wong | salv-orlando: in design summit session? no --- we didn't use whiteboard (just etherpad); in pod area, yes | 15:48 |
| * regXboi notes nobody wants to see him hopped up on caffeine | 15:48 | |
| mestery | Lets not confuse adv. svcs (LBaaS, VPNaaS, and FWaaS) with service chaining here, which is I think what regXboi was doing. | 15:49 |
| regXboi | mestery: not precisely | 15:49 |
| s3wong | particularly when we talk about "spinning out" --- clearly it is in context of the existing advanced services (LB/FW/VPN) | 15:49 |
| mestery | s3wong: Yes | 15:49 |
| regXboi | um | 15:50 |
| regXboi | mestery: that etherpad needs updating because that context is *NOT* clear | 15:50 |
| mestery | regXboi: Please feel free to update. :) | 15:50 |
| mestery | Time to move on: Eveyrone is ok talking IPAM? /cc carl_baldwin | 15:50 |
| mestery | ??? | 15:50 |
| carl_baldwin | I am | 15:51 |
| salv-orlando | Or anybody NOT OK talking about IPAM? | 15:51 |
| mestery | salv-orlando: That's a beter way to discuss this I think. | 15:51 |
| mestery | Or frame it, rather | 15:51 |
| * salv-orlando if you’re one of those I’ll assign you all the deadlock and lock wait timeout bugs that come out from ipam | 15:51 | |
| mestery | OK, IPAM it is. Moving on. | 15:51 |
| mestery | Refactoring in agents and paying down technical debt there. | 15:52 |
| mestery | This is an area which overlaps a few things. | 15:52 |
| mestery | And finally, we have a slot for retrospective. | 15:53 |
| mestery | I'm personally of the opinion that this is ok, but that it would be better to do this post-Summit once people ahve recovered from partying (and design summit sessions). | 15:54 |
| regXboi | mestery: that was the slot I was thinking of suggesting for LTs | 15:54 |
| s3wong | mestery: that is a prime candidate to be replaced by lighting talks? | 15:54 |
| mestery | regXboi: Me as well to be honest | 15:54 |
| mestery | I think the first Neutron meeting post-Summit could be used entirally for priorities and we could nail them down there. | 15:55 |
| * mestery notes 5 minutes left ... | 15:55 | |
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| amotoki | don't we need to discuss about Friday? | 15:55 |
| mestery | amotoki: Yes, but really we can allow signups there as we have 2 3.5 hour blocks | 15:56 |
| mestery | At a round table in a room with other round tables and discussions going on | 15:56 |
| mestery | So for that, we can push things which require a smaller # of people or things which overflow. | 15:56 |
| mestery | Just my current thinking | 15:56 |
| markmcclain | there will also be the pods as in past years too | 15:57 |
| mestery | OK, since we're almost out of time, I think we can wind this down now. | 15:57 |
| markmcclain | so I think that can help folks advertise when pods sessions are occuring too | 15:57 |
| mestery | I will finalize the schedule and upload to sched.org by Friday. | 15:57 |
| mestery | So please reach out to me if you have questions or concerns before then. | 15:57 |
| markmcclain | since in many instances lightning talks are really just open to recruit more for wider discussion | 15:58 |
| mestery | And thanks for attending this week everyone! | 15:58 |
| mestery | #endmeeting | 15:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Oct 22 15:58:23 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2014/neutron_drivers.2014-10-22-15.02.html | 15:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2014/neutron_drivers.2014-10-22-15.02.txt | 15:58 |
| salv-orlando | adieuuuuu | 15:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2014/neutron_drivers.2014-10-22-15.02.log.html | 15:58 |
| s3wong | bye | 15:58 |
| armax | bye | 15:58 |
| amotoki | good night | 15:58 |
| markmcclain | bye | 15:58 |
| regXboi | oom | 15:58 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: natarajk: hi | 18:30 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: hi | 18:31 |
| natarajk | hi | 18:31 |
| SridarK | natarajk: k | 18:31 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #startmeeting Networking FWaaS | 18:31 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Oct 22 18:31:43 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is SumitNaiksatam. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:31 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:31 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking_fwaas' | 18:31 |
| SumitNaiksatam | seems like everyone is busy preparing for the summit ;-) | 18:32 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | #info kilo design summit etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-fwaas | 18:32 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #info neurtron kilo design summit topics: #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-neutron-summit-topics-distilled | 18:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | lets get started with the standing items on the agenda | 18:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Bugs | 18:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:33 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | I dont see anything new popping up | 18:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: ? | 18:33 |
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| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: not much to report | 18:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i know badveli was going to do some additional testing | 18:34 |
| SumitNaiksatam | but he doesnt seem to be here | 18:34 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | lets check back with him offline | 18:34 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: will do | 18:34 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | i dont think any of the untriaged bugs are critical | 18:35 |
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| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: i will also take a look | 18:36 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: thanks | 18:36 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Docs | 18:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Docs (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:36 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: any updates? | 18:36 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: not much on this | 18:36 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: let me know if you need anything from me, happy to jump in… | 18:37 |
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| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: will do | 18:37 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ok moving on | 18:37 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Kilo blueprints | 18:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Kilo blueprints (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:38 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: i noticed that you added a vendor blueprint for the CSR | 18:38 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: hi there! | 18:38 |
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| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: yes resubmitted what we had for Juno | 18:39 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: thats a good thing | 18:39 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: we need to start refocussing on getting the process going | 18:39 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: lo! | 18:39 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: now our dependencies are in | 18:39 |
| SridarK | glebo: hi | 18:39 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: agreed | 18:39 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: is vishnu planning to repost the service groups blueprint? | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | natarajk: what about your vendor spec? | 18:40 |
| natarajk | i was planning to submit it after the design summit | 18:40 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: absolutely | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | natarajk: ok sure | 18:40 |
| glebo | I'll ping him on it | 18:40 |
| glebo | suprised he didn't do it already | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: yes, i think better to put it in at earliest | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: he might have had, and i might have missed it | 18:41 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: ack | 18:41 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: apologies in advance if i missed it | 18:41 |
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| glebo | #action: glebo to encourage vishnu to submit service groups BP asap | 18:41 |
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| * glebo surprised vishnu not on the chat here himself | 18:42 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: thanks for adding the AI | 18:42 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #action: glebo to encourage vishnu to submit service groups BP asap | 18:42 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #chairs SridarK natarajk glebo | 18:43 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | #chair SridarK natarajk glebo | 18:43 |
| openstack | Current chairs: SridarK SumitNaiksatam glebo natarajk | 18:43 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: i checked, i dont think its in | 18:43 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: but its perfectly understandable if badveli is a bit confused and frustrated here | 18:44 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: ya, me too. Already pinged him on it | 18:44 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: LOL!! | 18:44 |
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| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: honestly, if he wasn't, I wouldn't be here | 18:44 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: :-) | 18:44 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i think we all are! | 18:44 |
| SumitNaiksatam | anyway | 18:45 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: moving on | 18:45 |
| SumitNaiksatam | so in terms any additional blueprints to be posted | 18:45 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | i think we need the design summit discussion to go through | 18:45 |
| glebo | badveli joining any second now | 18:45 |
| badveli | thanks glebo | 18:45 |
| badveli | sorry | 18:45 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ah badveli just joined | 18:45 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: not worries | 18:46 |
| SumitNaiksatam | *no | 18:46 |
| glebo | badveli: good to see someone is still able to get emersed in coding | 18:46 |
| glebo | badveli: ah… the good ol days… | 18:46 |
| badveli | thanks glebo, sorry today being diwali | 18:46 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: we handed you an AI while you were busy actually working! ;-) | 18:46 |
| badveli | sorry sumit, did not see it | 18:47 |
| glebo | badveli: let's go ahead and have u resubmit the BP for service groups | 18:47 |
| glebo | badveli: ack? | 18:47 |
| badveli | the blue print? | 18:47 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: yeah, the service groups | 18:47 |
| badveli | the blue print is already approved | 18:47 |
| glebo | badveli: and do so asap, yeah, BP, spec and code, all in kilo | 18:47 |
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| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: that's the proper process? | 18:48 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: yeah, we have to go by that, until we decide or are told to do something else | 18:48 |
| badveli | sumit, do we submit the bp and code by branch names? | 18:49 |
| SridarK | badveli: u need to resubmit spec | 18:49 |
| badveli | thanks sridark, i will try to do that | 18:49 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: resubmit the blueprint (you will have to make minor modifications since the template has changed slightly) | 18:49 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: code can just be rebased | 18:49 |
| badveli | should we get the approvals again? | 18:49 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: yes, we need the approvals again on the spec | 18:50 |
| badveli | for the blue print? | 18:50 |
| * glebo here it comes, ducking | 18:50 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: yes | 18:50 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: :-) | 18:50 |
| * glebo feels deja vu for badveli, and for all here, really | 18:50 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: so things are clear on the process? | 18:50 |
| * glebo lavers, rinses, repeats | 18:50 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: deja vu for the nth time! | 18:50 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: so, is that deja vu vu vu vu vu vu vu | 18:51 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: :-) | 18:51 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: or just more simply deja vu^9 | 18:51 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: is the process clear? | 18:51 |
| glebo | maybe we ought to get shirts printed up for sumit, just for FWaaS team to wear, "deja vu^9" | 18:52 |
| badveli | yes, but this will still delay and not able to get why we are doing this again | 18:52 |
| glebo | and maybe we'll bring enough for the LBaaS and VPNaaS teams too | 18:52 |
| badveli | and getting the approvals | 18:52 |
| badveli | again??? | 18:52 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: :-) | 18:52 |
| glebo | since u know they are having the exact same tongue n cheek exchange in their mtgs this week too | 18:52 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: i share your frustration, and we are trying to find a solution | 18:52 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: badveli: +1000 | 18:53 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: but until then we have to stay the course | 18:53 |
| glebo | badveli: Let's u and I take it offline. I can coach u thru it tomorrow, k? | 18:53 |
| badveli | fine with me, thanks glebo | 18:54 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: open to your suggestions as well, if you think a different approach might be helpful | 18:54 |
| badveli | Sumit, as you know how hard it is getting the approvals | 18:54 |
| badveli | and going through it again | 18:54 |
| glebo | *badveli pictures blow torches* | 18:54 |
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| glebo | badveli: time check. Let's take it offline | 18:55 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: agree, and hence we had team discussions to explore options | 18:55 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ok moving on | 18:55 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Kilo design summit discussion | 18:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Kilo design summit discussion (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:56 | |
| s3wong | badveli: it is probably going to be worse this time. only five selected cores can give your spec a +A in Kilo cycle :-) | 18:56 |
| SumitNaiksatam | s3wong: now you are really rubbing it in! | 18:56 |
| s3wong | SumitNaiksatam: :-) | 18:56 |
| glebo | s3wong: at least now we know which core's reviews really matter | 18:56 |
| SumitNaiksatam | s3wong: yeah sad but (absolutely) true | 18:56 |
| badveli | thanks s3wong | 18:57 |
| glebo | s3wong: that's a step in the right direction, or bright side | 18:57 |
| SumitNaiksatam | s3wong: btw, welcome to fwaas! | 18:57 |
| s3wong | glebo: well, you still need the 2 +2's , but you need an extra step to get the +A in case the two cores that gave you +2's aren't one of the five | 18:57 |
| * glebo snaps for s3wong | 18:57 | |
| glebo | s3wong: ack. Exactly | 18:58 |
| s3wong | SumitNaiksatam: just happened to be on #openstack-meeting-3; sorry for the interruption, please move on | 18:58 |
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| glebo | s3wong: but at least now we KNOW that | 18:58 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | ok Kilo design summit discussion | 18:58 |
| glebo | s3wong: Which, you know, is nice | 18:58 |
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| s3wong | glebo: :-) | 18:58 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | i provided link to the etherpad earlier #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-fwaas | 18:59 |
| glebo | s3wong: actually, very helpful "interruption". Everyone needs to be clear on that process step | 18:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | please enter your input | 18:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | s3wong: right, you are welcome to stick around | 18:59 |
| * glebo scanning epad | 18:59 | |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: the entries in the kilo epad have been preserved here | 19:00 |
| glebo | brb | 19:00 |
| s3wong | BTW, guys, in this morning's neutron-drivers meeting, a new "lighting talks" session is suggested and probably will replace the "retrospective" session | 19:00 |
| SumitNaiksatam | so as we had discussed within the team earlier, the following seem to be community priorities for FWaaS: | 19:00 |
| SridarK | i think that does reflect our priorities for kilo | 19:00 |
| SumitNaiksatam | 1. Get FWaaS out of experimental status (address router insertion) | 19:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | 2. Support FWaaS for E-W scenario in DVR. | 19:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | 3. Service Groups (since this code is posted and in review) | 19:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | 4. Metering capabilities (Ceilometer dependency) | 19:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | 5. Flavors - we might need to support if this gets implemented | 19:01 |
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| s3wong | so don't be discouraged if your proposal didn't make the initial cut of design summit, you may still get to do a 5 minutes lighting talk | 19:01 |
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| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: +1 | 19:01 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | i would propose that we keep our focus on the above during the discussions | 19:02 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: +1 | 19:02 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | on point 1, i myself am not clear as to why FWaaS is qailified as “experimental” | 19:02 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i was consulted on this point in the first release of fwaas, and my feedback was based on the insertion issue | 19:03 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: i think this is probab only open issue | 19:03 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: yeah | 19:04 |
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| * glebo back | 19:04 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | are there any disagreements within the team on the above priorities? | 19:04 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | the above obviously does not include vendor specific stuff | 19:05 |
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| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: agree, i guess we also have to see how this "services coming out of neutron" story plays out | 19:05 |
| SumitNaiksatam | the above also in the context of Kilo | 19:05 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: agreed | 19:05 |
| SridarK | and how that impacts our list | 19:05 |
| glebo | on the above priorites, | 19:06 |
| glebo | I think we will gain a lot of cred in the community at large if | 19:06 |
| SumitNaiksatam | the key to any “coming out” discussion is who are the cores | 19:06 |
| glebo | we are shown to be talking about pulling out vendor plugins from main | 19:06 |
| glebo | and creating an interface for them to easily be loaded as plugg-able modules | 19:07 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: as i mentioned before pulling out vendor plugins is not a discussion just in the context of FWaaS | 19:07 |
| glebo | as I've mentioned before, it's a huge sticking point for several of the TC, | 19:07 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: understood | 19:07 |
| glebo | but | 19:07 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: this has been on the table for a long time, and i believe it will happen in Kilo | 19:07 |
| glebo | each service element will need to address it for themselves, | 19:07 |
| glebo | so, if we show we are doing our part, it will earn us some cred | 19:08 |
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| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: exactly why we need to have it on our list, | 19:08 |
| glebo | so that we are being good citizens to the deeper architectural direction | 19:08 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: yeah, sure we can put it on the list, but we will just be following what the rest of neutron is doing | 19:08 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: make sense? | 19:08 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: sure, and | 19:09 |
| glebo | it indicates are are "cheefully complying" and | 19:09 |
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| glebo | if we can add some value there, the community will like that too, and | 19:09 |
| glebo | we need to ensure that the hooks, plugs, interfaces, structures, etc. that we need in order to succeed in such an extraction are present | 19:10 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: yes we will definitely comply, i dont think we will have a choice, and we definitely prefer that option | 19:10 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: so, it becomes a pretty big work item for us in kilo, | 19:10 |
| glebo | I'll add it to the epad | 19:10 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: “interfaces” for plugging into neutron is not a FWaaS-specific topic | 19:11 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: that becomes a general services’ discussion | 19:11 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: agreed, and | 19:11 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: feel free to add to the etherpad, since it reinforces the discussion | 19:11 |
| glebo | FWaaS has it's side of it | 19:11 |
| glebo | it's our part of the service insertion model, our domain-specific elements | 19:12 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: but i wanted to make sure that we dont get lost in that disucssion and hence stall on the features for FWaaS that are sort of independent of that aspect | 19:12 |
| SumitNaiksatam | by “that” i mean the “service insertion” related conversation | 19:13 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: not to be sarcastic, but to then go ahead and be sarcastic… those features aren't really "getting in" right now anyway | 19:13 |
| SumitNaiksatam | since this has happened in the past two cycles | 19:13 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: job 1: unstick the system, whatever it takes. Job 2: make FWaaS feature rich | 19:14 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: doing 1 w/o 2 is wheel spinning, no? | 19:14 |
| SumitNaiksatam | also, in the past we have tried justify the value/need of the service insertion framework using FWaaS as an exmaple/case study | 19:14 |
| SumitNaiksatam | however the net result of that was that we could neither get the service framework in, and we couldn’t solve the problem for fwaas either (and thus continue to be branded experimental) | 19:15 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: so most of what you are saying is deja vu to me ;-) (and not trying to be sarcy there) | 19:16 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: totally empathetic | 19:16 |
| SumitNaiksatam | okay so the meta point was, please put your comments on the etherpad :-) | 19:16 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: right. Will do | 19:16 |
| glebo | ;-) | 19:17 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: ;-) but could be :-( just as well! | 19:17 |
| glebo | (some of my points are already there, prepended with [glebo]) | 19:17 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: nice | 19:17 |
| SumitNaiksatam | so what the above list means is that we miss out very critical features like zones and address groups | 19:17 |
| SumitNaiksatam | and logging and hit counts | 19:18 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | the fact that none of features were allowed to go through in the last two cycles has created a huge backlog of items | 19:19 |
| SumitNaiksatam | and that will take a long time to clear up in the current process/system (if at all) | 19:19 |
| glebo | (hit counts is a very cool feature. We have them in our product, and customers LOVE them) | 19:19 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: absolutely agree | 19:20 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: its critical for firewalls | 19:20 |
| SumitNaiksatam | so any way the point i wanted to make is that we havent lost track of these features | 19:20 |
| SumitNaiksatam | but we will unlikely have time for them with the current constraints | 19:21 |
| SumitNaiksatam | since we are veering more into open discussion territory | 19:21 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Open Discussion | 19:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 19:21 | |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: re: backlog, that's sort of ok, for the short term, because we aren't trying to build an open source FW here, just trying to define policy blobs. In reality, all the products can define their own policy blobs in their config / mgmt systems, so there is a work around in the short run, for operators, automatable through vendor API | 19:21 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: people prefer a single pane of glass | 19:22 |
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| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: any update from the service teams strategy session last week. As you know I left early. Saw the write up. Commented. But not sure if any response came back after that. ? | 19:23 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: i responded to your emails | 19:23 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: i did not notice your emails until yesterday | 19:23 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: ok, must have missed it | 19:23 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: will check | 19:24 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: for some reason the thread got buried and popped only because of s3wong’s email yesterday | 19:24 |
| glebo | SumitNaiksatam: re: 1 glass: for sure. Wouldn't be here otherwise. | 19:24 |
| SumitNaiksatam | glebo: :-) | 19:24 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ok if nothing else to discuss we can get 5 mins of our time back | 19:24 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: perhaps we can all start thinking about the priority list | 19:25 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: sure | 19:25 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: so in terms of spec etc we can get some early discussion at the summit | 19:25 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i would also propose that we popularize this etherpad and make sure that we get a good critical mass of folks for the F2F discussions in the summit | 19:26 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ok thanks folks for attending today | 19:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | bye! | 19:27 |
| SridarK | bye all | 19:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #endmeeting | 19:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:27 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Oct 22 19:27:41 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:27 |
| glebo | cheers | 19:27 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_fwaas/2014/networking_fwaas.2014-10-22-18.31.html | 19:27 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_fwaas/2014/networking_fwaas.2014-10-22-18.31.txt | 19:27 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_fwaas/2014/networking_fwaas.2014-10-22-18.31.log.html | 19:27 |
| badveli | bye | 19:28 |
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