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| prashanthr_ | hi flwang, | 05:51 |
|---|---|---|
| flwang | prashanthr_: hi | 05:51 |
| prashanthr_ | I was able to fix the bug : https://bugs.launchpad.net/marconi/+bug/1284995 | 05:53 |
| prashanthr_ | The functional tests run fine on my local machine, but on Jenkins the errors I am observing are not related to my code change. | 05:54 |
| prashanthr_ | My patch URL : https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82343/ | 05:54 |
| flwang | prashanthr_: ok, I will take a look at it after a session in 30 minutes | 05:55 |
| flwang | thanks for letting me know the patch :) | 05:55 |
| prashanthr_ | flwang: Sure , thank you ! You are welcome ! :) | 05:56 |
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| flwang | flaper87: morning | 10:20 |
| flaper87 | flwang: hey hey | 10:23 |
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| flwang | flaper87: how are you? good weekend? | 10:23 |
| flwang | flaper87: seems we have a lot items on our Juno to-do list | 10:24 |
| flwang | will we touch them in tomorrow weekly meeting? | 10:24 |
| flwang | I would like to see what I can help | 10:24 |
| flaper87 | flwang: yeah, that's a rough list, we need to make it shorter and prioritize | 10:25 |
| flwang | exactly | 10:26 |
| flaper87 | it'd be helpful if you could go through the proposed bps in that list and add some comments | 10:26 |
| flwang | flaper87: will do, it's on my today to-do list :D | 10:26 |
| flwang | btw, I think we need to also confirm the final to-do list is the expectation from the TC/community POV | 10:27 |
| flwang | flaper87: in other words, we need to interlock with those guys who has concerns now to make sure they are on the same page for all the next stages | 10:28 |
| flaper87 | flwang: yes and no, I think we need the TC feedback on the plan but we also need to run most of those things through the community | 10:28 |
| flwang | flaper87: I know i'm saying some rubbishs | 10:28 |
| flaper87 | the work we've to do is bigger that, we'll need to split it in several areas (we are kinda doing this in the etherpad) | 10:29 |
| flaper87 | there are some technical things that we've to take care of and other community aspects that we need to clear up | 10:29 |
| flwang | flaper87: yep | 10:29 |
| flwang | flaper87: okay, so i'm a new comer, I'm standing by to take some tasks :) | 10:30 |
| flaper87 | flwang: btw, if you get a chance, could you help me testing the client library? | 10:36 |
| flwang | for claims? | 10:36 |
| flaper87 | Testing some scenarios should be enough | 10:36 |
| flaper87 | like, queue's create, deletes, messages post, delete, claims etc | 10:37 |
| flaper87 | flwang: also, it'd be really cool if you could give it a try with keystone | 10:37 |
| flaper87 | we'd like to release a new version of the client library | 10:37 |
| flwang | flaper87: any deadline? | 10:38 |
| flwang | due date | 10:38 |
| flaper87 | tomorrow :P | 10:38 |
| flaper87 | nah, just kidding | 10:38 |
| flaper87 | so, I'd really, really, really like to release the new version tomorrow or Wednesday | 10:38 |
| flaper87 | the sooner the better | 10:38 |
| flwang | flaper87: i see. I can start to do it from today, but I can' guarantee to complete by tomorrow :D but I want to promise complete it by Wed, is it acceptable? | 10:40 |
| flwang | but you know, now it's my night, so most of the work I will start from my tomorrow | 10:41 |
| flaper87 | flwang: yeah, don't worry! Just take your time and do what you can | 10:45 |
| flaper87 | flwang: I'll be testing it too | 10:45 |
| flaper87 | I just wanted someone that double checks my: "It Works" :D | 10:46 |
| flwang | flaper87: ah, sounds good. | 10:46 |
| flwang | flaper87: I will interlock with you to make sure you're not lonely :D | 10:47 |
| * flaper87 doesn't feel lonely anymore | 10:47 | |
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| njirap | marconi ping.. anyone | 11:31 |
| njirap | i dont have MARCONI_TESTS_CONFIGS_DIR in my os environ where is it? | 11:34 |
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| AAzza | njirap: hmm... i'm new here, but i think you could set it via export MARCONI_TESTS_CONFIGS_DIR=/somedir/with/config | 11:40 |
| njirap | AAzza i cant see the dir anywhere even the marconi github repo doest have it | 11:41 |
| AAzza | njirap: the default dir is tests/etc as far as i can see (in tox.ini) | 11:43 |
| njirap | Aazza ok lemmie try it | 11:44 |
| njirap | Aazza i have it now.. thanks | 11:47 |
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| flaper87 | fwiw, MARCONI_TESTS_CONFIGS_DIR is optional :) | 12:10 |
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| njirap | flaperf87 ... am running test_claims.py line by line in python shell.. am tryna understand the functional tests.. so its kinda compulsory for me :) | 12:31 |
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| alcabrera | Good morning! :D | 14:35 |
| flaper87 | alcabrera: hey heyyy | 14:37 |
| flaper87 | how are you doing? | 14:37 |
| alcabrera | I'm feeling soooo laggy today, flaper87. Happy, though. | 14:37 |
| alcabrera | flaper87: how about you? | 14:38 |
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| flaper87 | alcabrera: happy that you're happy :D | 14:46 |
| flaper87 | alcabrera: I'm feeling great, hacking on marconi's client a bit and waiting for the US to wake up :D | 14:47 |
| malini | hello !! | 14:47 |
| flaper87 | malini: 'sup girl???? how are you doing? | 14:52 |
| alcabrera | hehe, I'm still not quite awake. :P | 14:53 |
| alcabrera | but sweet - marconiclient improvements | 14:53 |
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| malini | flaper87: good!! | 14:53 |
| alcabrera | malini: good morning! | 14:53 |
| malini | alcabrera: must be something in ATL..am not quite awake either | 14:53 |
| cpallares | malini, alcabrera, flaper87: Good morning | 14:53 |
| malini | good morning cpallares!! | 14:53 |
| flaper87 | alcabrera: malini in case you are curious http://paste.openstack.org/show/74146/ :D | 14:53 |
| flaper87 | cpallares: hey hey | 14:54 |
| malini | flaper87: that is awesome! | 14:54 |
| alcabrera | cpallares: good morning. :) | 14:56 |
| jbernard | flaper87: what exactly does "ninja approval" mean? | 14:56 |
| malini | flaper87, flwang: I dont know how easy it is to add client tests..But we'll have tests for those in Tempest. | 14:56 |
| malini | Its called CLI tests & we havent started anything for tht yet | 14:57 |
| malini | But we can start on tht sooner if it'll help | 14:57 |
| alcabrera | jbernard: it's when there's been only one +2 on a review and it gets approved. | 14:57 |
| alcabrera | sometimes, it's out of emergency needs | 14:57 |
| jbernard | ahh, i see | 14:57 |
| alcabrera | other times, it's because other +2s were given earlier but was lost between patch sets, and the changes were minor. | 14:57 |
| alcabrera | that's the gist of it. :) | 14:58 |
| flaper87 | jbernard: it's approving like a ninja | 14:58 |
| alcabrera | oh yeah - congrats, malini! You're core now, right? :D | 14:58 |
| flaper87 | jbernard: dude, haven't you ever seen ninja turtles ? | 14:58 |
| alcabrera | flaper87: in that case, all ninja approvals require pizza. | 14:59 |
| alcabrera | preferably supremely chessy pizza | 14:59 |
| flaper87 | alcabrera: fuck yeah! | 14:59 |
| flwang | manili: are you working on adding marconi client test cases for Tempest? | 14:59 |
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| malini | flaper87: not yet..but we can get started on tht | 15:00 |
| alcabrera | kgriffs: o/ | 15:00 |
| malini | sorry..tht was for flwang | 15:00 |
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| kgriffs | and...I'm back. ZNC gotchya when adding other servers. | 15:00 |
| malini | flwang: Somebody else has shown interest in working on Marconi Tempest integration | 15:00 |
| flaper87 | malini: you're now officially a marconi-core member, you've the power for making contributors sad or happy by -2ing and +2ing their patches | 15:01 |
| flwang | flaper87: +1 :D | 15:01 |
| malini | woohoo..I have the POWER ;) | 15:01 |
| flwang | malini: sounds cool | 15:01 |
| jbernard | malini: also, i prefer to have all of my patches ninja approved | 15:01 |
| flwang | malini: you're the superman now | 15:01 |
| jbernard | malini: just fyi ;) | 15:01 |
| malini | jbernard: Lets talk about the deal offline ;) | 15:01 |
| jbernard | malini: great, i will send pizza | 15:01 |
| malini | On a serious note, Thank you all! I will do my best to prove your opinions about me true :) | 15:02 |
| malini | I look forward to working on the code beyond tests. | 15:03 |
| flaper87 | malini: you've already done that. KEep up with the great work! | 15:03 |
| malini | Thanks flaper87! | 15:03 |
| flaper87 | jbernard: so, package ? | 15:03 |
| flaper87 | :D | 15:03 |
| jbernard | flaper87: im reviewing other fedora packages now | 15:04 |
| jbernard | flaper87: this is a requirement (i must be sponsored into the pacakging group before marconi can be approved) | 15:04 |
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| cpallares1 | yay malini congrats! | 15:04 |
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| malini | thank you cpallares !! | 15:04 |
| jbernard | flaper87: at least, that is my understanding current | 15:04 |
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| flaper87 | jbernard: erm, what? (plop) | 15:05 |
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| jbernard | flaper87: also, i suppose we'll need the client as well | 15:05 |
| jbernard | flaper87: see the last comment on the bug | 15:05 |
| flaper87 | jbernard: yeah but lets sort the server out first, I don't think you need to review other packages to get sponsored | 15:05 |
| flaper87 | who's your sponsor? | 15:05 |
| jbernard | flaper87: carlthered | 15:06 |
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| flaper87 | jbernard: mmh, maybe he has different requirements | 15:06 |
| jbernard | flaper87: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1075822#c6 | 15:06 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: FYI http://paste.openstack.org/show/74146/ :) | 15:06 |
| flaper87 | jbernard: yeah, he has different requirements, then! | 15:07 |
| jbernard | flaper87: no worries, i will update the ticket today | 15:07 |
| jbernard | flaper87: if the packages proves to be in good shape, then i think it won't take much effort to approve | 15:08 |
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| jbernard | flaper87: if you have time to test it, that would be awesome | 15:08 |
| jbernard | flaper87: i can fix any issues in parallel | 15:08 |
| flaper87 | jbernard: I will, thanks for your work there, like really thanks! | 15:09 |
| jbernard | flaper87: no problem | 15:09 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: thanks! | 15:09 |
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| malini | anybody seen the MagnetoDB discussions in the ML? | 15:12 |
| kgriffs | flaper87, malini: BTW, I spoke with Randall from Heat last Friday and he is going to propose a feature at the ATL that uses Marconi to surface events to end users | 15:13 |
| kgriffs | He's been wanting to do this for a while, FWIW. | 15:13 |
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| kgriffs | so it isn't like this is an artificial use case | 15:13 |
| malini | woohoo!! | 15:13 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: that's useful for Horizon too | 15:14 |
| amitgandhi | there had better be a Hotlanta analogy in there somewhere | 15:14 |
| alcabrera | sweet, re: Heat | 15:14 |
| flaper87 | and there's (or will be) a session proposed by one of the horizon cores | 15:14 |
| amitgandhi | i wouldnt mind seeing jay-atl1 do something similar for horizon | 15:14 |
| flaper87 | brb | 15:14 |
| amitgandhi | he's worked on similar types of stuff for an internal product here | 15:15 |
| alcabrera | oh yeah - the hands on: w/ marconi session was approved as an *alternate* | 15:15 |
| malini | alcabrera: what does *alternate* mean? | 15:15 |
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| alcabrera | if someone decides to not show up and talk, our talk will get a slot | 15:15 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: I was thinking maybe to do a lightning talk on Falcon | 15:16 |
| alcabrera | or could get a slot | 15:16 |
| kgriffs | with this outline | 15:16 |
| kgriffs | 1. What it is | 15:16 |
| alcabrera | depending on priority as an alternate | 15:16 |
| flaper87 | malini: a pessimist would say: "You ain't gonna make it but we'll let you figure that out yourself" | 15:16 |
| kgriffs | 2. Why it is complimentary to other frameworks | 15:16 |
| kgriffs | 3. Try it and tell me what you like and don't like | 15:16 |
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| kgriffs | Basically, I need to, in a public forum, say what I've been telling teams all along who have been evaluating Pecan and Falcon | 15:17 |
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| kgriffs | "try both and decide which tool works best for you; there are a lot of variables, and I am not going to tell you which one to choose." | 15:18 |
| mpanetta | amitgandhi: *Hot*lanta? We are having a low around 29 tomorrow :P | 15:18 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: sounds good to me! | 15:18 |
| flaper87 | we should also have an unconference about Marconi | 15:18 |
| amitgandhi | mpanetta: cos we are waiting for someone to bring the heat ;-) | 15:18 |
| flaper87 | I'm not taking the talk rejection as our final no | 15:18 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: I don't think there are unconferences anymore | 15:18 |
| mpanetta | amitgandhi: haha true | 15:18 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: yeah, the changed the name to something different but there's still a slot for random talking, IIRC | 15:19 |
| flaper87 | they* | 15:19 |
| kgriffs | I heard mentions about some parallel series of 15-minute talks or something. Can't remember what that was called. Is that what you were thinking? | 15:19 |
| amitgandhi | the hallways are big at the Georgia Conference Center. Worst case stand on a chair and start talking lol | 15:20 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: yeah, so this is my plan (cc alcabrera ) | 15:20 |
| alcabrera | we will conquer the hall way track | 15:21 |
| alcabrera | none shall resist the allure of poptarts | 15:21 |
| alcabrera | they shall queue for them | 15:21 |
| alcabrera | and we will give them the Message | 15:21 |
| flaper87 | the 3 of us should submit a one of those 15min lightning talks, request that they're put sequentially. Then, the first will introduce marconi, the second will talk about its internals and the third about deploying it | 15:21 |
| mpanetta | haha | 15:21 |
| flaper87 | :D | 15:21 |
| alcabrera | :) | 15:21 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: do you have info on where to submit those talks? I only heard a brief mention in the climate teem meeting last week | 15:22 |
| kgriffs | (they also got the shaft on talks) | 15:22 |
| flaper87 | I think that's not open yet | 15:22 |
| malini | It'll be good to have oz_akan_ talk about his real world Marconi deployment experience | 15:23 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: kk, can you watch for that and let us know ASAP so we can submit? I think you and Oz should definitely submit talks. Then one more from one of [me, malini, alcabrera] | 15:24 |
| kgriffs | I don't mind doing one, but I want people to see new faces so they get the idea this Marconi thing isn't just a Flavio-Kurt show | 15:24 |
| malini | We need to communicate that we are production ready | 15:25 |
| oz_akan_ | malini: and we are in production really | 15:25 |
| malini | Given the skeptical emails we had abt performance & tests | 15:25 |
| oz_akan_ | :) | 15:25 |
| malini | oz_akan_: exactly, that is what we need to communicate | 15:25 |
| amitgandhi | yeh if oz can talk about his experiences and if we can talk about our real customers | 15:26 |
| amitgandhi | megan_w: should be able to help with the customer part | 15:26 |
| mpanetta | marconi: drop dead easy to deploy. :) | 15:26 |
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| amitgandhi | and show real performance metrics from a production deployment (both realtime, as well as stress tests) | 15:27 |
| malini | amitgandhi: +1 | 15:27 |
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| kgriffs | pls. add notes to the etherpad on this stuff ^^^ | 15:28 |
| amitgandhi | message should be: "Its easy to deploy, we did it, and look at this cool graphs" | 15:28 |
| kgriffs | Let me add a section for the summit | 15:28 |
| kgriffs | amitgandhi: +1 for pictures | 15:28 |
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| kgriffs | I think we should have tons of pictures in our talks, on our wiki, etc. | 15:28 |
| kgriffs | not just graphs, obviously | 15:28 |
| amitgandhi | +1 | 15:28 |
| amitgandhi | "fluffy bunnies?" | 15:29 |
| kgriffs | whatever works. :) | 15:29 |
| kgriffs | amitgandhi: fluffy bunnies with pancakes on their heads | 15:29 |
| amitgandhi | kgriffs: i want a tshirt this time ;-) | 15:29 |
| alcabrera | oh yeah, t-shirts | 15:30 |
| oz_akan_ | performance is very relative, as I understand people are trying to compare this to rabbitmq and alike so won't be impressive for those. I think scalability and ease of management is more remarkable with marconi | 15:30 |
| mpanetta | kgriffs: I want your marconi shirt, speaking of :P | 15:30 |
| mpanetta | Why do people keep comparing marconi to rabbit? | 15:31 |
| amitgandhi | oz_akan_: i think performance comparisons need to be made with similar players (sqs, ironio, azure service bus, etc) | 15:31 |
| oz_akan_ | and for some it is still not clear whey people need marconi | 15:31 |
| malini | mayvbe its more realistic to compare our performance with SQS/ iron.io ? | 15:31 |
| mpanetta | I think so | 15:31 |
| amitgandhi | and customer use cases (how are our production customers using marconi.) | 15:31 |
| malini | I am sure amitgandhi was looking over my shoulders ;) | 15:31 |
| mpanetta | hah | 15:31 |
| amitgandhi | malini: no, i just read your mind, and can type faster ;-P | 15:32 |
| alcabrera | the relative comparison would draw the most attendees, I feel. kestrel/rabbitmq/iron.io/sqs/kafka/JMS/etc. as compared to marconi | 15:32 |
| oz_akan_ | iron.io and sqs would make the most sense | 15:32 |
| alcabrera | it depends, oz_akan_. Is marconi also interested in competing against self-hosted queuing solutions? | 15:34 |
| malini | We should also start sharing these numbers in the ML more often, not just when we are ready for grad review ;) | 15:34 |
| alcabrera | malini: +2/A | 15:35 |
| alcabrera | that A comes with pizza - because it's so ninja | 15:35 |
| alcabrera | :D | 15:35 |
| megan_w | are you guys still wanting a customer testimony? | 15:35 |
| malini | megan_w: Yes ! | 15:36 |
| malini | & FYI https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MagnetoDB | 15:36 |
| malini | We should start paying attention to this | 15:36 |
| alcabrera | malini: ah, sweet | 15:37 |
| alcabrera | magnetodb <=> dynamodb | 15:38 |
| alcabrera | interesting | 15:38 |
| alcabrera | yeah, that's definitely compelling | 15:38 |
| malini | we should pitch our needs to the MagnetoDB team | 15:38 |
| alcabrera | given how much good I've heard of cassandra | 15:38 |
| kgriffs | hmmm | 15:38 |
| amitgandhi | so why not just use cassandra? | 15:38 |
| kgriffs | amitgandhi: see my note on the etherpad about cassandra | 15:39 |
| kgriffs | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/marconi-incubation-round-2 | 15:39 |
| kgriffs | amitgandhi: cassandra is a really bad platform when you have high data churn | 15:39 |
| amitgandhi | oic | 15:39 |
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| oz_akan_ | cassandra is not good with frequent data deletion | 15:39 |
| amitgandhi | due to replication | 15:39 |
| oz_akan_ | hmm, magnetoDB is API for Cassandre | 15:40 |
| flaper87 | back | 15:40 |
| oz_akan_ | so no go | 15:40 |
| amitgandhi | so anyway, my ref above was why build magnetodb based on dynamodb when thats how cassandra came about. Why no use cassandra instead of forking magnetodb? | 15:40 |
| kgriffs | amitgandhi: not sure about because of replication, but certainly because it is a column store iirc | 15:40 |
| oz_akan_ | and few like DynomoDB | 15:40 |
| kgriffs | amitgandhi: oic | 15:40 |
| kgriffs | thought you meant why not use cassandra for Marconi vs. MagnetoDB | 15:41 |
| oz_akan_ | http://www.datastax.com/dev/blog/cassandra-anti-patterns-queues-and-queue-like-datasets | 15:41 |
| oz_akan_ | this is wh | 15:41 |
| oz_akan_ | why | 15:41 |
| amitgandhi | that was another question, answer helped. | 15:41 |
| oz_akan_ | though good to read the comments | 15:41 |
| oz_akan_ | i guess best approach would be try and see | 15:41 |
| amitgandhi | Apache Cassandra looks very suitable for that case due to having tunable consistency, easy scalability, key-value data model, ring topology and other features what gives us predictable high performance and fault tolerance. Cassandra data model perfectly fits MagnetoDB needs. | 15:41 |
| flaper87 | not sure what we're discussing here? | 15:42 |
| flaper87 | s/?// | 15:42 |
| amitgandhi | flaper87: magnetodb topic | 15:42 |
| amitgandhi | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MagnetoDB | 15:42 |
| amitgandhi | i think we sidebar'd into it =P | 15:42 |
| kgriffs | personally, I think Redis is our best bet for a non-AGPL data store. Maybe Riak. Other things aren't as battle-tested or you only get the good stuff in the commercial version (i.e., velocityDB) | 15:42 |
| oz_akan_ | we need something like redis and a ring algortihm | 15:42 |
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| mpanetta | Jez, how many DB's are there?! | 15:43 |
| flaper87 | TBH, I think we should focus on Redis and amqp based store now | 15:43 |
| alcabrera | mpanetta: no less than 20 | 15:43 |
| alcabrera | :D | 15:43 |
| mpanetta | Wow. That seems excessive heh | 15:44 |
| flaper87 | We also have to think about what's already being used in the community (although I think this deserves a separate time and discussion) | 15:44 |
| alcabrera | flaper87: +1 | 15:45 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: I would like for one of us to submit a patch to keystone middleware to use oslo cache | 15:45 |
| kgriffs | then we can say "use redis for cache and for Marconi" | 15:45 |
| kgriffs | oh, and we need oslo cache to support Redis too. :p | 15:45 |
| oz_akan_ | i think it is wrong approach | 15:45 |
| flaper87 | yeah :P | 15:45 |
| oz_akan_ | we should say redis because it is really good for marconi | 15:45 |
| oz_akan_ | not because others use | 15:45 |
| flaper87 | oz_akan_: trust me, that's how we think but there's also a community impact that we need to consider | 15:46 |
| kgriffs | oz_akan_: I agree, but I want all the pieces to be there and let people come to the above realization if they are concerned about having to manage "yet another DB" | 15:46 |
| flaper87 | it's not that A because N people use it | 15:46 |
| flaper87 | it's A because A is good *AND* other people use it | 15:46 |
| oz_akan_ | marconi has to be the best messaging service in the world, and any operator would like to provide the best service and would be willing to maintain it even if it means something to learn | 15:46 |
| kgriffs | oz_akan_: I like the way you think | 15:46 |
| flaper87 | oz_akan_: that's the goal | 15:47 |
| oz_akan_ | flaper87: yes AND approach if good to have but not something to start with | 15:47 |
| oz_akan_ | if = is | 15:47 |
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| oz_akan_ | marconi's problem, I think is, the willingness to support everything | 15:48 |
| amitgandhi | also everyones perception of good performance and scale is different depending on scale of deployment and intended usecases | 15:48 |
| kgriffs | nobody complains when they have to deploy Redis in order to use Sensu | 15:48 |
| flaper87 | marconi won't support everything | 15:48 |
| kgriffs | because they *want* sensu | 15:48 |
| flaper87 | but it shouldn't forbid other things to be implemented | 15:49 |
| oz_akan_ | flaper87: it would, mongodb, sqlalchemy, redis... | 15:49 |
| flaper87 | oz_akan_: that's not everything, we've talked about this several times | 15:49 |
| oz_akan_ | now it won't as mongodb has license issue, no one likes RDMS.. | 15:49 |
| flaper87 | we agreed to add 2 more stores | 15:49 |
| flaper87 | the rest can live elsewhere | 15:49 |
| oz_akan_ | so that I believe makes it complicated | 15:50 |
| kgriffs | with all the work we have coming up on backend stuff, benchmarking, docs, etc. I think we had better stick with HTTP transport for this cycle. My $0.02 | 15:50 |
| oz_akan_ | we need to choose what marconi is good for, so expectations on performance and scalability will be determined more realistically | 15:50 |
| kgriffs | plus, our talk on supporting other transports makes people confused | 15:51 |
| oz_akan_ | kgriffs: +1 | 15:51 |
| amitgandhi | i think an amqp transport/backend will confuse ppl more that we are trying to replace rabbit | 15:51 |
| oz_akan_ | I think we shall stay with http until we have the best messaging/queueing service out there over http | 15:51 |
| kgriffs | also, consider that HTTP 2.0 is just around the corner | 15:52 |
| kgriffs | oz_akan_: +1 | 15:52 |
| kgriffs | amitgandhi: could be | 15:52 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: what do you think? | 15:52 |
| flaper87 | amitgandhi: I disagree, if you put Marconi on top of an amqp store, it should be clearer that they don't go side-by-side | 15:52 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: can you elaborate? | 15:52 |
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| oz_akan_ | amitgandhi: if we position marconi as a RESTful queuing service (which it was), that can scale, expectations will be similar to SQS. if we say it will support amqp this and that, then race is against messaging software that are installed on 1-2 servers and most in memory | 15:54 |
| oz_akan_ | amqp people are looking for something else | 15:55 |
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| flaper87 | What I mean is that people is concern about 1) Marconi replacing other brokers, 2) marconi not being as fast as rabbit. If we go and say: "Hey, you don't have to drop rabbit, you can deploy marocni on top of it and create several rabbit shards for different purposes" | 15:55 |
| flaper87 | it should be clearer that we don't it to be a drop-in replacement but to be a tool that can play nice with the amqp technology that people have already installed | 15:55 |
| oz_akan_ | flaper87: if you have a rabbit cluster, why would you replace it with marconi? | 15:55 |
| flaper87 | oz_akan_: again, you *don't* have to replace it | 15:56 |
| amitgandhi | also the http adds latency so it will be slower | 15:56 |
| flaper87 | plus, rabbit has serious clustering issues which is one of the things we want to fix | 15:56 |
| flaper87 | amitgandhi: +1 | 15:56 |
| kgriffs | hmm | 15:56 |
| kgriffs | what about the bridge idea | 15:56 |
| amitgandhi | either way i feel redis is the higher priority | 15:57 |
| kgriffs | a more interesting use case to me is this: | 15:57 |
| kgriffs | "I have an existing thing that talks AMQP. I don't want to rip it out over night (or maybe ever). Can Marconi be bridged to AMQP?" | 15:57 |
| amitgandhi | kgriffs: why would they switch to marconi? | 15:57 |
| flaper87 | amitgandhi: why wouldn't they? Isn't marconi the best messaging service ever ? | 15:58 |
| flaper87 | :) | 15:58 |
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| kgriffs | amitgandhi: I don't think they would switch, they would say, I want AMQP to do this internal X thing, but I want Marconi to be the public face, when I need to communicate with users" | 15:58 |
| kgriffs | or, they may just switch if Marconi's performance is good enough, which for many apps it is | 15:59 |
| kgriffs | people like to think they need WAAAAAY more than they actually do. | 15:59 |
| oz_akan_ | I see this happening in real life, 1- only cloud vendors are installing / managing marconi 2- others consume it as a service 3- only reason someone switches to marconi is to get queuing as a service | 15:59 |
| flaper87 | I really don't see the huge problem here. We shouldn't limit the things marconi can do as far as they don't require us to break the API | 15:59 |
| kgriffs | I agree, the API is key | 16:00 |
| oz_akan_ | 4- marconi will always be slower due to http and being over internet 5- so it's audience is different than hard core rabbit users | 16:00 |
| flaper87 | We've been focusing on having a nice API since the very beginning | 16:00 |
| amitgandhi | flaper87: +1 but it comes back down to time and energy maintaining backends | 16:00 |
| flaper87 | an API that is common through *existing* technologies | 16:00 |
| kgriffs | swift doesn't say "gosh, you can't use X for your backend" | 16:00 |
| kgriffs | but they don't compromise their API to support X, either | 16:00 |
| flaper87 | The main goal has always been to not reinvent the wheel | 16:00 |
| oz_akan_ | I think, at this point, deciding on what we don't want to do is more critical than what we want to | 16:00 |
| oz_akan_ | flaper87: who do think will be installing marconi? | 16:01 |
| oz_akan_ | I don't see anyone other than cloud vendors and some larger companies that provide private clouds | 16:02 |
| amitgandhi | i feel it should be "who do we think will be using marconi" - lets think about the customer's and what they want to use it for, rather than the person installing the software on their cloud | 16:02 |
| flaper87 | oz_akan_: whoever needs a simple, stable, fast messaging service. We could add to this that people using marconi will likely have multi-tenancy requirements, and they will also likely use multiple stores | 16:02 |
| flaper87 | oz_akan_: why not? I could setup marconi for itnernal services | 16:02 |
| amitgandhi | customers could be app developers using it from their phone apps, or it could be infra apps sending messages around | 16:03 |
| oz_akan_ | flaper87: that wouldn't be marconi, that would be single something | 16:03 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: do you think Marconi should consider supporting a MagnetoDB driver? | 16:03 |
| kgriffs | </random> | 16:03 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: I think it should, the question is: SHould this driver be maintained by marconi cores - meaning, live in the code base- ? | 16:03 |
| oz_akan_ | installing marconi is not simple, it has sharding, catalog, different layers. | 16:03 |
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| flaper87 | oz_akan_: that's still marconi | 16:04 |
| kgriffs | oz_akan_: I think a scrappy startup might run marconi themselves if they have certain needs, like they want to install custom message pipeline filters | 16:04 |
| flaper87 | I think we won't ever know all the uses cases marconi can / cannot be good for | 16:04 |
| oz_akan_ | that is not marconi is intended for | 16:04 |
| oz_akan_ | a startup will run rabbitmq | 16:04 |
| flaper87 | really, I think it's wrong to waste time on that topic | 16:04 |
| oz_akan_ | to save money as it will require less hardware | 16:04 |
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| oz_akan_ | a startup will use marconi as a service | 16:04 |
| amitgandhi | we should build something that can be used in different ways and let customers surprize us | 16:05 |
| oz_akan_ | it won't even install though | 16:05 |
| flaper87 | I could simply say: Take the list of people using SQS and iron.mq, they can all use marconi | 16:05 |
| oz_akan_ | flaper87: +1 | 16:05 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: would you mind going to the next magnetoDB mtg or something and asking them if they would consider supporting something other than cassandra for a backend? I'm concerned about Marconi using it due to this, which was learned the hard way by Comcast with their SQS clone: http://www.datastax.com/dev/blog/cassandra-anti-patterns-queues-and-queue-like-datasets | 16:05 |
| oz_akan_ | no one, other than vendors, will install marconi, lets see a year after graduation to see how many active installations it will have | 16:06 |
| oz_akan_ | none of the SQS and iron.io users will ever install marconi even if they choose to use it | 16:06 |
| flaper87 | oz_akan_: but they can switch and use RAX's queuing service ;) :D | 16:06 |
| oz_akan_ | they use sqs and iron.io because they choose not to manage it | 16:06 |
| oz_akan_ | flaper87: yes, :) | 16:07 |
| oz_akan_ | I mean we need to aim big marconi installations | 16:07 |
| oz_akan_ | that can scale, support thousands of customers | 16:07 |
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| flaper87 | kgriffs: yeah, I can. I still think we have room for 2 more stores in marconi's code base: 1) Redis 2) amqp based | 16:07 |
| flaper87 | the rest can live in stackforge | 16:07 |
| flaper87 | or GH | 16:07 |
| flaper87 | or whatsoever | 16:07 |
| amitgandhi | can we ditch sqla | 16:07 |
| amitgandhi | ? | 16:08 |
| flaper87 | amitgandhi: we can, although it's useful for the gate and development | 16:08 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: agreed. maybe a third, but that would be the absolute limit | 16:08 |
| flaper87 | the sqlite driver is like the best thing when working on marconi | 16:08 |
| amitgandhi | true | 16:09 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: for example, a magnetodb driver would live in the magnetodb contrib or something | 16:09 |
| flaper87 | we always said that sqlite *shouldn't* be used in production | 16:09 |
| flaper87 | we can say the same thing about sqla | 16:09 |
| flaper87 | which is exactly the way I feel | 16:09 |
| amitgandhi | so keep sqla+sqlite, and ditch sqla+mysql | 16:09 |
| amitgandhi | or at that point it doesnt matter | 16:09 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: yeah | 16:09 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: yeah, maybe say it is there for mostly SQLite and definitely not for production | 16:10 |
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| flaper87 | the good thing is that the redis store is almost done (cc alcabrera ) | 16:10 |
| flaper87 | so, we'll likely get 2 stores doone for Juno | 16:11 |
| flaper87 | done | 16:11 |
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| kgriffs | I would love to have flavors done too | 16:11 |
| alcabrera | flaper87: the redis store feels pretty hacky atm. There are many bugs and is terrifyingly slow, given I went simple and careless with it. :P | 16:11 |
| alcabrera | though | 16:11 |
| kgriffs | so people realize that "one size doesn't fit all" | 16:11 |
| alcabrera | we've much interest from students wanting to make redis/marconi happen through GSoC | 16:12 |
| alcabrera | s/and is/and it's/ | 16:12 |
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| flaper87 | kgriffs: +1 for flavors | 16:12 |
| flaper87 | we should definitely have that session | 16:12 |
| kgriffs | alcabrera: ok. I think we should be willing to relax the FIFO guarantee or whatever if that makes the driver do less work and be blazing fast | 16:12 |
| alcabrera | kgriffs: +1 | 16:12 |
| amitgandhi | are our customers expecting FIFO (ie using it, and its critical to them?) | 16:13 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: alcabrera relazing FIFO is part of the flavors work, IMHO | 16:13 |
| flaper87 | relaxing* | 16:13 |
| oz_akan_ | yes to flavors | 16:14 |
| kgriffs | People want the ability to say "I want queue X with A durability and B performance and C guarantee | 16:14 |
| oz_akan_ | kgriffs: we don't really know what people want right? | 16:14 |
| kgriffs | 2-3 flavors, that hit the sweet spots on that spectrum | 16:14 |
| oz_akan_ | I think people want best of everything | 16:14 |
| flaper87 | the good thing is that with marconi they can pretty much get the best of everything as long as it's supported by the API | 16:15 |
| kgriffs | oz_akan_: yes, but given that is impossible, I've heard at least two people say they would be happy with a couple coarse-grained options that gives them the freedom to choose their tradeoffs | 16:15 |
| oz_akan_ | I think flavor support shouldn't include backend change, if possible, than great | 16:15 |
| alcabrera | that's the key to making flavors successful: there has to be a clear mapping from flavor -> parameter tweaking (perf, fifo, durability are interesting params) | 16:15 |
| oz_akan_ | kgriffs: I think it is possible | 16:15 |
| kgriffs | oz_akan_: that may be possible, depends on the tradeoff | 16:16 |
| flaper87 | I've always said that deploying and using marconi is like playing with lego bricks. You deploy / use what you need | 16:16 |
| oz_akan_ | after SSD's :) | 16:16 |
| kgriffs | oz_akan_: for instance, we could have a mongo driver that doesn't guarantee FIFO | 16:16 |
| oz_akan_ | yes | 16:16 |
| kgriffs | and even has lower durability - doesn't wait for a majority of replicas to ack the write, for instance | 16:16 |
| amitgandhi | do we need to provide flavors from everyone for everything or is 80% coverage good enough? | 16:17 |
| kgriffs | so flavors needs to be only loosely coupled to driver | 16:17 |
| oz_akan_ | I dream we manage replication of data and we have redis (something alike) as backend so we can manage durability vs performance etc. | 16:17 |
| oz_akan_ | and that is decided during queue creation | 16:17 |
| * amitgandhi hopes we dont build replication ourselves | 16:17 | |
| kgriffs | amitgandhi: I don't think we need every possible combination of variables. | 16:17 |
| kgriffs | people with special needs are the kind of people more attracted to private cloud anyway, IMO | 16:18 |
| oz_akan_ | kgriffs: that is right | 16:18 |
| alcabrera | amitgandhi: if we do, then we've failed - regarding build our own replication. :P | 16:18 |
| amitgandhi | private cloud still equals openstack cloud | 16:18 |
| kgriffs | the operator can choose some common flavors | 16:18 |
| oz_akan_ | public cloud is about standardization | 16:18 |
| kgriffs | it is up to them | 16:18 |
| flaper87 | I think people could create their own flavors too | 16:18 |
| kgriffs | (up to them how many/what kinds of flavors) | 16:18 |
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| flaper87 | I see the storage driver providing a set of supported features | 16:18 |
| flaper87 | like mongodb exposes a list of: [durable, performance, database] | 16:19 |
| oz_akan_ | about flavors, I think we can be really open minded and then evaluate how much of it makes sense | 16:19 |
| flaper87 | redis: [freaking_fast, in-memory, etc] | 16:19 |
| flaper87 | then we can combine those features and create flavors out of them | 16:19 |
| oz_akan_ | again, I think we shall have only one backend | 16:19 |
| oz_akan_ | flavors should also be just because of the hardware | 16:20 |
| amitgandhi | i think code can support multiple, deployment only deploys one backend | 16:20 |
| oz_akan_ | should = could | 16:20 |
| oz_akan_ | we circle around | 16:20 |
| flaper87 | oz_akan_: +1 about considering hardware | 16:20 |
| oz_akan_ | I will write a looong e-mail about tit | 16:20 |
| oz_akan_ | it | 16:20 |
| amitgandhi | oz_akan_: spam filters might block that email ;-) | 16:21 |
| oz_akan_ | haha | 16:21 |
| oz_akan_ | I will do a blog post then | 16:21 |
| kgriffs | etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-marconi-flavors | 16:22 |
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| kgriffs | oz_akan_: agreed, a driver can be configured to enable/disable certain guarantees, for example | 16:22 |
| kgriffs | same driver, configured differently. You could also pass it in to the driver on every call, but that would be less performant methinks | 16:23 |
| oz_akan_ | kgriffs: a shard might only support one flavor if it is installation time configuration | 16:23 |
| oz_akan_ | and we shall call flavors as flavios :) sounds more artistic | 16:23 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: flavors can be tricky with topics | 16:24 |
| kgriffs | oz_akan_: lol | 16:24 |
| alcabrera | oz_akan_: heh. :P | 16:24 |
| flaper87 | LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL | 16:25 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: mmh, why? | 16:25 |
| kgriffs | re topics vs. queues, I think some flavor variables are going to be more easily implemented for topics than others | 16:25 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: first off, if I have a message assigned to two topics, what flavor is the message? well, messages now are associated with a flavor, not a topic. So now, how do I query for messages that have both topic X and topic Y | 16:26 |
| flaper87 | btw, guys, March 27th, Marconi hangout. I'll take this opportunity go through some of the points in our FAQ | 16:26 |
| kgriffs | I have to query all backends - I don't know what cluster to look at since I don't know in advance what flavor the messages might be | 16:27 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: the message may have 2 flavors | 16:27 |
| flaper87 | ah wait | 16:27 |
| flaper87 | so yeah | 16:27 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: hangout was 1400 UTC? | 16:28 |
| flaper87 | basically, when we thought about flavors the first time, we said that the relation queue-flavor was 1:1, I think the same applies for topics | 16:28 |
| flaper87 | we can come up with really nice syntax to do this | 16:28 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: yeah, let me double check | 16:28 |
| kgriffs | hmmm | 16:28 |
| flaper87 | there'll be a default flavor if none is specified, but we could also get some sort of [(topic, flavor)] kind of thing | 16:29 |
| kgriffs | so, if I associate 2 topics with 1 message, I would basically duplicate the message to two different backends (potentially, depending on how flavors are implemented in driver land) | 16:29 |
| flaper87 | something to consider in the session | 16:29 |
| flaper87 | yeah, basically | 16:30 |
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| flaper87 | which IMHO, is fair | 16:30 |
| flaper87 | they are 2 different topics | 16:30 |
| amitgandhi_lunch | brb | 16:30 |
| kgriffs | and if I ask for messages that are in topic A and topic B, the service would have to find out which messages are in both backends | 16:30 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: not needed, IMHO | 16:30 |
| kgriffs | or we include metadata in both backends, so we just query one and we know where else it is | 16:31 |
| kgriffs | oh, wait | 16:31 |
| flaper87 | If I (a consumer) am listening on 2 different topics, I may get a message duplicated | 16:31 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: what if I want to do this: | 16:31 |
| flaper87 | that's fair, that would happen in rabbit too, FWIW | 16:31 |
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| kgriffs | topic a: AppUserID | 16:31 |
| kgriffs | topic b: UsersMachineAgentID | 16:32 |
| kgriffs | i want to broadcast all messages to agents for that ID, so I just send to topic a | 16:32 |
| kgriffs | but if I want to sent to a single agent, I would put both topics on a message | 16:32 |
| kgriffs | hmmm. I guess this isn't the same sort of use of topics that you are proposing | 16:33 |
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| kgriffs | this would be more like tags | 16:33 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: exactly | 16:33 |
| flaper87 | that would be tagging the message | 16:33 |
| flaper87 | which we can have as well | 16:33 |
| kgriffs | hmmm | 16:33 |
| kgriffs | so, one would be able to post to two topics, but only list/claim messages from *one* topic per request? | 16:34 |
| flaper87 | yeah | 16:35 |
| flaper87 | (which is how message brokers work too) | 16:35 |
| flaper87 | I mean, you have separate channels | 16:35 |
| kgriffs | yeah | 16:35 |
| kgriffs | I was just conflating topics and tags again | 16:35 |
| kgriffs | :p | 16:35 |
| kgriffs | I am convinced now that you can't simply create one affordance that covers both topic and tag semantics | 16:37 |
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| flaper87 | kgriffs: haha, yeah, they're pretty separate things | 16:37 |
| kgriffs | so, yes, it would make sense to add tags as a separate thing later | 16:37 |
| flaper87 | topics are key for routing messages | 16:37 |
| flaper87 | tags are a way to add more attributes to a message. Well, tagging it :P | 16:37 |
| flaper87 | anyway, very good discussions | 16:37 |
| flaper87 | damn, I love this channel | 16:38 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: BTW - I started adding notes to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/marconi-incubation-round-2 for summit planning | 16:42 |
| kgriffs | I left it in the same etherpad for now since it is related to graduation planning | 16:42 |
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| flaper87 | kgriffs: sounds good, I'll go through them in a bit | 16:46 |
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| kgriffs | cpallares: o/ | 17:13 |
| kgriffs | sorry for me taking so long to review your falcon patch | 17:13 |
| kgriffs | I just found a couple minor nits | 17:13 |
| cpallares | kgriffs: o/ | 17:14 |
| cpallares | kgriffs: thanks for reviewing it | 17:14 |
| kgriffs | cpallares: you are going to be in Atlanta for the summit, right? | 17:15 |
| flaper87 | cpallares: say no, say no | 17:15 |
| flaper87 | for your own good, say no | 17:15 |
| cpallares | hahaha | 17:15 |
| * flaper87 hides | 17:15 | |
| flaper87 | :D | 17:15 |
| cpallares | flaper87, kgriffs: I don't know yet, but I should know soon. | 17:16 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: no good, I have friends in the NSA | 17:16 |
| kgriffs | ;) | 17:16 |
| cpallares | haha | 17:16 |
| kgriffs | cpallares: kk | 17:16 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: I'm your friend in the NSA... | 17:16 |
| flaper87 | ops | 17:16 |
| kgriffs | because... I was thinking about setting up some hardware hacking schtuff at our project pod | 17:16 |
| flaper87 | I shouldn't have said that | 17:16 |
| kgriffs | ! | 17:16 |
| cpallares | haha flaper87, very high training you at the NSA nowadays. | 17:17 |
| * kgriffs was wondering what his real name was | 17:17 | |
| cpallares | kgriffs, flaper87: I actually heard Jacob Appelbaum give a talk this weekend. Over the internet, of course. | 17:18 |
| kgriffs | <random> | 17:20 |
| kgriffs | "Frogs in the head" | 17:20 |
| kgriffs | https://github.com/racker/falcon/pull/238/files | 17:20 |
| kgriffs | LOOOOOOOL | 17:20 |
| kgriffs | </random> | 17:20 |
| flaper87 | lol | 17:21 |
| flaper87 | sebasmagri: :P | 17:21 |
| kgriffs | I like this person's sense of humor. | 17:21 |
| kgriffs | :D | 17:21 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: he's sebasmagri :D | 17:21 |
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| kgriffs | alcabrera, malini: could use your eyes on this - https://github.com/racker/falcon/pull/238/files | 17:22 |
| mpanetta | Oh that is awesome | 17:22 |
| alcabrera | cuteness_in_the_head(req, resp) | 17:24 |
| alcabrera | fluffiness_in_the_head(req, resp): | 17:24 |
| alcabrera | you know this is a great patch | 17:24 |
| alcabrera | <2 | 17:24 |
| alcabrera | <3 | 17:24 |
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| malini | :D | 17:24 |
| alcabrera | it speaks to me as a human, and some of my fundamental concerns | 17:24 |
| kgriffs | can you folks just sanity check this patch for me? I am about ready to merge it as-is. | 17:24 |
| alcabrera | :D | 17:24 |
| alcabrera | but technically speaking | 17:25 |
| kgriffs | It's so dang cute | 17:25 |
| alcabrera | I'll look ot over now | 17:25 |
| alcabrera | *it | 17:25 |
| * malini checking now as well | 17:25 | |
| cpallares | haha aww alcabrera | 17:25 |
| alcabrera | self.assertEqual('fluffy', self.srmock.headers_dict['X-Fluffiness']) -- very important | 17:26 |
| alcabrera | kgriffs, sebasmagri: +1 on this patch | 17:27 |
| sebasmagri | thanks folks! | 17:27 |
| malini | kgriffs: LGTM | 17:30 |
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| kgriffs | thanks! | 17:37 |
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| flaper87 | brb, I'm going to get some gummy bears | 17:39 |
| flaper87 | and some food too | 17:39 |
| flaper87 | but gummy bears first | 17:39 |
| alcabrera | flaper87: w00t | 17:39 |
| alcabrera | yes of course. ;) | 17:39 |
| kgriffs | oz_akan_, flaper87: interesting article on microservices. Relevant when you talk about the trend towards more heterogeneous operating environments - http://martinfowler.com/articles/microservices.html | 17:41 |
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| kgriffs | (via @alcabrera) | 17:42 |
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| alcabrera | "The ultimate 'microservice' is a pure function." - via @pchiusano | 17:46 |
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| oz_akan_ | thanks kgriffs I will read it | 17:47 |
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| alcabrera | Take care, everyone. :) | 20:30 |
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| kgriffs | ciao | 20:48 |
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