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| openstackgerrit | Adam Harwell proposed a change to stackforge/octavia: TLS Data Security Overview https://review.openstack.org/130659 | 00:23 |
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| mestery | lbaas folks: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130864/ | 18:16 |
| mestery | That's the merge commit to bring master into feature/lbaasv2 | 18:16 |
| mestery | Once it passes Jenkins, I'll put it in the queue. | 18:16 |
| mestery | And then we can land the second patch which failed jenkins yesterday. | 18:16 |
| mestery | blogan: ^^^^ | 18:16 |
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| blogan | mestery: thanks! | 18:57 |
| mestery | blogan: Hopefully it passes the check queue soon and then I'll get it in the merge queue. Apologies it took longer than I thought, but I wanted to be careful I was doing it correct. :) | 18:58 |
| blogan | mestery: understandable, i appreciate you doing it and keeping us up to date | 19:00 |
| blogan | mestery: what are the chances this happens again though? | 19:00 |
| mestery | blogan: I think I'm going to plan to pull master into feature/lbaasv2 at least every 2 weeks, it's not that hard and almost always will be without conflict I think., | 19:01 |
| mestery | This will keep it fresh. | 19:01 |
| mestery | I'll make sure to sync with you folks on this though. | 19:01 |
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| rm_work | Hey guys -- I was looking at what TrevorV is working on right now, and it's a specification for an *implementation* of an interface (for which there is already a spec)... I am a little bit concerned if this is going to become the norm | 20:22 |
| rm_work | Can we agree that we don't need to write a spec document for each *implementation* since it will by definition contain only implementation details? | 20:23 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff / sballe / xgerman | 20:24 |
| rm_work | Or at least that you can make a spec if you want to, but if it's literally just detailing "this is the function in some library i'm going to call to achieve what the interface specification already detailed" then it isn't really useful | 20:25 |
| blogan | mestery: i think there would be a conflict almost always with the migrations, but those are easy to fix | 20:26 |
| mestery | ack | 20:26 |
| TrevorV | mestery syn | 20:26 |
| mestery | lol | 20:26 |
| rm_work | I'm recommending he abandon the WIP spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130640/ | 20:26 |
| rm_work | mestery / TrevorV: you guys are doing it backwards. it hurts T_T | 20:26 |
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| TrevorV | I like it | 20:28 |
| rm_work | is TrevorV a time-traveler? >_> | 20:28 |
| rm_work | or rather I guess mestery would be | 20:29 |
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| mestery | rofl | 20:29 |
| xgerman | I like specs | 20:31 |
| rm_work | xgerman: yeah but we're entering spec overload territory | 20:32 |
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| xgerman | well, I think the specs are pretty light -- at least you have figured out the functions before writing code. If you use a piece of paper you can as well write a quick spec | 20:33 |
| xgerman | but I understand that some specs add little value beyoned focusing a person thoughts | 20:34 |
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| sballe | rm_work: I think we need specs. Othewise we are back to where we where in Atlanta where the documentation is "read the code" | 20:35 |
| sballe | and then we cannot discuss design | 20:35 |
| blogan | sballe: i think he is arguing that some specs arent necessary for implementing interfaces that already ahve specs, so is it worth doing them? | 20:37 |
| rm_work | sballe: yeah we need specs, we just don't need to write specs for implementations for interfaces that have specs | 20:37 |
| rm_work | because at that point it is, literally by definition, purely implementation details | 20:37 |
| TrevorV | Another thing to consider, sballe, we all agree that specs provide good documentation, but in this case the documentation is necessary for the interface, not so much for the implementation of it, since the documentation can be literally the same. | 20:39 |
| blogan | well i can see how an implementation of an interface could require some extra details that would be spelld out in a spec | 20:41 |
| blogan | similar to how neturon lbaas drivers require a spec even though they are implementing the driver interface | 20:41 |
| rm_work | which is why i said "feel free if you want to, but please don't say it's required" | 20:41 |
| blogan | meh if it's not a lot of work then it won't be hard to do and won't take much time, if it is a lot of work then it is worth doing | 20:44 |
| TrevorV | I follow rm_work here. In cases where an implementation may be ambiguous, it would make sense to have a spec for it for sorting out that ambiguity. In the case of the aforementioned spec, I feel like its just a copy-paste of the interface spec is all. | 20:44 |
| ptoohill | http://i.imgur.com/LhYwbW6.jpg | 20:45 |
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| openstackgerrit | Adam Harwell proposed a change to stackforge/octavia: TLS Data Security Overview https://review.openstack.org/130659 | 20:52 |
| rm_work | Anyway, the only reason I bring that up is so that when TrevorV abandons his review (and when I don't do specs for implementations on my CertManager interface) people won't freak out | 20:56 |
| blogan | im going to freak out | 20:56 |
| rm_work | you do that :P | 20:57 |
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| sbalukoff | I'll take a closer look at that and register an opinion. In my experience though-- two people looking at the same trivial problem will often come up with different ways to solve it, one of which is usually better. Sometimes that could emerge if things are specced out beforehand and save people some trouble. | 21:05 |
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| sbalukoff | I definitely agree that all interfaces need to be specced, otherwise people can't work in parallel on different components and expect them to actually work together. | 21:06 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: yeah but at the level of detail that you'd realize that, you practically have the implementation coded | 21:06 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: Depends on the case. | 21:06 |
| rm_work | which is why i keep saying "feel free if you think it's worth it" | 21:06 |
| rm_work | just don't want to get people complaining if I don't make one :P | 21:07 |
| sbalukoff | I don't want a hard and fast rule here because I don't think it's appropriate. But just know that if you write an implementation that isn't specced, you may end up in a situation where you end up having to rewrite much of your code because "obvious assumptions" to you weren't necessarily obvious to other people. | 21:07 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: Right. Flip side of that is: Don't complain if we come back and say "You did this totally wrong, please rewrite all of it." ;) | 21:08 |
| sbalukoff | Again, I haven't had time to look closely at the spec you've linked. Will do so later and register an opinion on whether I think it should be abandoned. | 21:08 |
| TrevorV | sbalukoff its my first spec, and its REALLY rough, so please provide ANY suggestions you come up with | 21:10 |
| TrevorV | I'll work on it over the next week tinkering around | 21:10 |
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| sbalukoff | TrevorV: Actually, I think that both ptoohill and blogan have raised good questions here, on it. And looking at this spec, even though it's pretty simple-- I'd say it's worth it to have it. | 21:12 |
| sbalukoff | (ex. answering the question "How will these actually make calls to nova?" is a good thing to clarify here, eh.) | 21:13 |
| rm_work | uhh | 21:14 |
| rm_work | "using python-novaclient" | 21:14 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: Good. Glad you aren't curling an API interface yourself. XD | 21:14 |
| rm_work | anything more detailed than that and you may as well just be writing the implementation | 21:14 |
| sbalukoff | I think blogan's point above is still valid: If it's a simple spec, it'll be quick to do, and is a good sanity check (for things you may not have thought about). If it's a more complicated spec, it's needed even more. | 21:15 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: I'll make sure to write a nice one-liner spec for my CertManager implementation, just for you :P | 21:16 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: Seriously, I'm not really understanding what the big deal is. | 21:16 |
| rm_work | it's a waste of time | 21:16 |
| rm_work | and it's not just a waste of writers time, it's a waste of the time of all of the people that have to go review and +2 it | 21:17 |
| rm_work | but *again*, I just want to make sure people won't freak out when I *don't* write a spec for every single tiny implementation CR I do | 21:18 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: I probably won't freak out. Just note again-- if it's not specced, we may ask you to rewrite significant portions of your code (and even go back and write a spec so we understand your intention is with the code). | 21:20 |
| sbalukoff | I'm all for following formalized process where it makes sense and abandoning it where it doesn't. | 21:21 |
| sbalukoff | Again, I'm not interested in a hard-fast rule here... just understand what the trade-offs might be. | 21:21 |
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| sbalukoff | rm_work: Have I succeeded in frustrating the hell out of you with my ambiguous response? ;) | 21:24 |
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| rm_work | more like amused | 21:25 |
| rm_work | classic sbalukoff | 21:25 |
| sbalukoff | Said another way, my response is: "Don't waste your time doing stupid things, but understand that what I think is | 21:25 |
| sbalukoff | 'stupid' and what you think is 'stupid' may not be the same thing." | 21:26 |
| rm_work | meanwhile, review this more worthwhile spec instead: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130659 :P | 21:31 |
| rm_work | oh whoops, i forgot to change the BP link *in* the spec | 21:32 |
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| blogan | everyone, i just sent an email to the neutron lbaas and octavia list, please look at it and respond | 21:48 |
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| rm_work | oh, what: http://sphinx-doc.org/ext/graphviz.html | 22:03 |
| rm_work | are we actually using that extension? | 22:03 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: Yes. | 22:11 |
| rm_work | i had assumed we were just randomly including dotfiles :P | 22:12 |
| rm_work | cool | 22:12 |
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| sbalukoff | blogan: Responded! Let's hope others in this community are amenable to that idea, too. | 22:18 |
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| blogan | thanks sbalukoff, and I hope so too | 22:23 |
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| mestery | blogan: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130864/ merged, rebase https://review.openstack.org/#/c/123468/ now if you have time yet tonight! | 23:07 |
| mestery | blogan: Thanks! | 23:08 |
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| openstackgerrit | Adam Harwell proposed a change to stackforge/octavia: TLS Data Security Overview https://review.openstack.org/130659 | 23:37 |
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