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| blogan | hello everyone | 15:34 |
|---|---|---|
| dougwig | morning | 15:45 |
| dougwig | i grabbed those bp's you mentioned last night. | 15:45 |
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| dougwig | jorgem: hmm, mechanism is tasty. | 16:07 |
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| jorgem | dougwig: you don't like gizmo?!?!?! ol | 16:25 |
| jorgem | lol | 16:25 |
| jorgem | man I was secretly going for that | 16:25 |
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| blogan | dougwig: awesome, thanks! | 17:56 |
| blogan | anyone have any comments about the blueprint process in general? | 18:02 |
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| sbalukoff | blogan: I'm looking into what you wrote earlier. I'll poke you if / when I have specific comments. :) | 18:10 |
| blogan | sbalukoff: okay | 18:12 |
| blogan | dougwig are you saying you like the term mechanism? | 18:13 |
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| openstackgerrit | Brandon Logan proposed a change to stackforge/octavia: Initial migration for database structure https://review.openstack.org/114671 | 18:41 |
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| dougwig | blogan: yes, i like mechanism or appliance or backend about 1000x more than device. | 22:22 |
| openstackgerrit | Trevor Vardeman proposed a change to stackforge/octavia: Initial creation of db models, modules, and tests https://review.openstack.org/116718 | 22:24 |
| dougwig | of course, i like vm and container the most, and i seem to be in a minority there. | 22:25 |
| blogan | i think appliance or backend is the best | 22:26 |
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| dougwig | my only problem with appliance is that if octavia eventually becomes the front-end of openstack lbaas, then we'll be shunting to hardware appliances at the same layer, or software appliances one layer deeper. | 22:27 |
| sbalukoff | dougwig: I don't quite follow why that's a problem. | 22:28 |
| sbalukoff | dougwig: Also, I actually don't want Octavia to be the front-end for OpenStack LBaaS. Even if the two projects are run by essentially the same people, I think they should probably remain separate long-term. | 22:29 |
| sballe_ | was listening on the old lbass channel. I am usign an old laptop and I guess I hadn't updated all the channels :-( I am back :-) | 22:29 |
| dougwig | there's a lot that hardware appliances don't need: scheduler, nova magic, HA monitoring, etc. so if we eventually plumb those in, we will have two depths of backends, so to speak. and one is already well known as "appliance". | 22:30 |
| dougwig | sballe_: welcome back | 22:30 |
| sballe_ | dougwig, :-) | 22:30 |
| sbalukoff | As someone pointed out, among other things, Octavia is a framework for managing a whole bunch of load balancer virtual appliances. A hardware solution is fundamentally incompatible in many ways with that model. But both can certainly do load balancing. | 22:30 |
| dougwig | sbalukoff: not that i'm advocating merging. just a possible naming collision that seems pointless to bake in, when there are like 20 possibilities. | 22:30 |
| sbalukoff | dougwig: I hear you. | 22:31 |
| sballe_ | sbalukoff, I understand that YOU might not want the two projects merged but other might | 22:31 |
| sbalukoff | sballe_: I've yet to hear a good technical reason why they ought to be merged. *shrug* | 22:32 |
| sbalukoff | But I think I just threw out one that is a good reason not to merge. :P | 22:33 |
| sbalukoff | I suspect there are others. | 22:33 |
| sballe_ | sbalukoff, I think we just have different goals with these projects and that is naturla given that we are in different businesses | 22:33 |
| dougwig | gauntlet thrown. if octavia eventually has its own rest api, keystone plumbing, cli, etc, then it might be expedient to simply make it the basis of openstack lbaas, especially as the ref driver is already baked in. the objects the user interacts with having nothing to do with virtual appliances on the backend. | 22:33 |
| sballe_ | The problem I have with not merging Octavia into the incubator LBaaS project is that we could end up with the existing reference implementation being deemed good enough and at that point Octavia will be a Stackforge project with no hope of becoming part of OpenStack. | 22:34 |
| dougwig | sbalukoff: again, i'm not advocating that. but there are reasons both ways. | 22:34 |
| sballe_ | but you all know my opinion on this now | 22:34 |
| sbalukoff | sballe_: This harkens back to your mandate to only use openstack-branded products. | 22:34 |
| blogan | sballe_: if the goal is for spinning out of neutron then gettign Octavia into the LBaaS tree will be fairly easy | 22:35 |
| dougwig | blogan: +1 | 22:35 |
| sballe_ | blogan, yes but sbalukoff just said he is not interested in that | 22:35 |
| sbalukoff | sballe_: Er... no I didn't? | 22:35 |
| * sballe_ looking back in the IRC to find where I thought sbalukoff said that | 22:36 | |
| blogan | sballe_: then the only real question is should it be in the same tree or not, and if its not in the same tree then will become an openstack project | 22:36 |
| sbalukoff | sballe_: I have no interest in getting burnt again on this project mostly be introducing leadership here who don't have its best interests in mind (or are too distracted with other things to prioritize it.) | 22:36 |
| sbalukoff | I really, *really* don't want to get burnt again, and especially be Neutron core leadership. :/ | 22:37 |
| blogan | sbalukoff: are you saying you'd be fine with octavia in the same tree as LBaaS if LBaaS got spun out and governed itself? | 22:38 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: Yep. | 22:38 |
| sballe_ | blogan, +1 | 22:38 |
| blogan | excellent | 22:38 |
| blogan | now do we all agree we want to spin out? | 22:38 |
| sbalukoff | Yep. | 22:38 |
| sballe_ | sbalukoff, blogan Wow we are in agreement :-) | 22:38 |
| sbalukoff | I think we've been violently agreeing most of the time. | 22:39 |
| sballe_ | Spin out of the Neutron: YES Spin out of Networking Program: No I believe LBaaS belogn there | 22:39 |
| sballe_ | sbalukoff, I agree :) | 22:39 |
| sbalukoff | I just am really, really not game for putting this project in a position where it can either become a political pawn, or red-headed stepchild of Neutron leadership. | 22:39 |
| sbalukoff | We gave them the benefit of the doubt once. | 22:39 |
| dougwig | i do want to see the incubator in action for a few months. | 22:39 |
| sbalukoff | They need to earn that trust back again if they want to have a say in this project. :/ | 22:40 |
| sballe_ | dougwig, +1 | 22:40 |
| blogan | i think we're all fine with reamining in the Networking program as long as we can govern ourselves. Though being under the networking program will probably have some other governing body but I'd be fine with dealing with that | 22:40 |
| sbalukoff | It all has to do with what degree of autonomy we enjoy. | 22:41 |
| sbalukoff | I like the technical advice and experience the Neutron folks bring. | 22:41 |
| blogan | yep | 22:41 |
| sbalukoff | I don't like the politics. | 22:41 |
| dougwig | let's not devolve into another incubator rant. there are reviews to be done. | 22:42 |
| sbalukoff | dougwig: +1 | 22:42 |
| sbalukoff | But, I'd like to see this talk of a merge put to rest until we actually have something that's a lot closer to being something that could be merged. | 22:43 |
| sbalukoff | (I think it's pretty distracting from actually making the product / making the product better.) | 22:43 |
| sballe_ | sbalukoff, +1 on the technical advice and experience the Neutron folks brin | 22:43 |
| blogan | well i think the end goals should be known to everyone so if those goals are not in line with some then why would they want to contribute to something they can't use? | 22:44 |
| sballe_ | blogan, +1 | 22:44 |
| blogan | so i see that as a reason this discussion should happen, but I think we just needed to state our goals clearer | 22:45 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: Is anyone here advocating a load balancer that isn't merged into OpenStack in some fashion in the long run? | 22:45 |
| dougwig | sbalukoff: some company's involved here might need more of the process laid out, for their management or whatnot. it's not code, sure, but let's get the question answered for them and move on. | 22:45 |
| sballe_ | blogan, I totally agree with that | 22:45 |
| sballe_ | dougwig, +1 | 22:45 |
| blogan | sbalukoff: no but I can see how the confusion could happen before this conversation that Octavia should just remain in stackforge | 22:45 |
| sballe_ | Also while we are working on Octavia in Stackforge what would prevent somebody from coming in an redoing the refrence implementaiton so it is good enought and bar the way for Octavia to make it in | 22:46 |
| blogan | sballe_: good enough for whom? | 22:46 |
| sbalukoff | Point number 1 in our constitution: | 22:46 |
| sbalukoff | Octavia is an OpenStack project | 22:46 |
| sbalukoff | ------------------------------- | 22:46 |
| sbalukoff | This means we try to run things the same way other "canonized" OpenStack | 22:46 |
| sbalukoff | projects operate from a procedural perspective. This is because we hope that | 22:46 |
| sbalukoff | Octavia will eventually become a standard part of any OpenStack deployment. | 22:46 |
| sballe_ | blogan, we ran into that situation when we tried to get libra accepted into openstack and we were told by the TC that the Neutron lBaaS was good enough | 22:47 |
| blogan | hahaha, thats funny | 22:47 |
| sbalukoff | sballe_: If someone wants to make an open source operator-grade load balancer faster than us to spite us all, I have no problem with that! We get to enjoy the fruits of that labor in any case. | 22:47 |
| blogan | not funny good, funny sad | 22:48 |
| sballe_ | sbalukoff, is that even legal: Octavia is an OpenStack project? | 22:48 |
| sbalukoff | sballe_: What do you mean? | 22:48 |
| sballe_ | I believe they are rules for what can be called OpenStack | 22:49 |
| sbalukoff | It's a philosophical point. We're not making a legal statement there. | 22:49 |
| sbalukoff | If they come to us and tell us to change that, that's fine. | 22:49 |
| blogan | unless you consider the constitution an advertisement | 22:49 |
| sballe_ | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Programs | 22:49 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: It'd be a pretty shitty advertisement. ; | 22:49 |
| sbalukoff | ;) | 22:49 |
| blogan | you'd need the micromachines guy to put that into a 30 second radio or tv spot | 22:50 |
| sballe_ | sbalukoff, I understand what you are saying | 22:50 |
| sbalukoff | sballe_: If you have a problem with that wording, feel free to submit a gerrit change request. | 22:50 |
| sbalukoff | :P | 22:51 |
| sballe_ | but that would probably have been ok a couple of releases ago but now the whole openstack thingy is pretty rigid | 22:51 |
| sbalukoff | sballe_: What is the point in bickering about this? | 22:51 |
| sballe_ | sbalukoff, Let me just run it by our TC member | 22:51 |
| sbalukoff | Seriously? | 22:51 |
| blogan | sballe_: do you know any more details on the Programs? that wiki is lacking any details | 22:51 |
| sballe_ | sbalukoff, I understand you feel this is bickering... Sorry about that.. | 22:53 |
| sbalukoff | sballe_: It's actually worse than that. I feel like these are supremely unimportant details that delay us from getting real work done. | 22:54 |
| sbalukoff | Again, if someone has a problem with the wording in the constitution, I'll happily take a look at a gerrit review to change it, eh. | 22:54 |
| sballe_ | sbalukoff, Will do | 22:55 |
| sballe_ | sbalukoff, I will look into it since we need to make sure we comply with OpenStack policies. That is my last comment on this. | 22:56 |
| sbalukoff | sballe_: Thank you. | 22:57 |
| blogan | alright im out for now, ill be on later, probably start working on another blueprint | 23:00 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: Thanks! | 23:00 |
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| dougwig | sballe_: is there something specific, process-wise, that HP needs to see? i don't think we're going to have any new answers any time soon. | 23:03 |
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| sballe_ | dougwig I just chatted with sbalukoff about this. | 23:18 |
| a2hill | He referenced 'micromachines' heh :) So, 'device' is out the window i assume? :D | 23:20 |
| dougwig | i hate 'device' with the passion of a thousand burning suns. alas, i have but one vote to cast against it's mediocrity. | 23:21 |
| sbalukoff | toaster | 23:21 |
| sbalukoff | I'm now throwing my weight behind calling it the toaster. | 23:21 |
| dougwig | battlestar-loadtaillica | 23:22 |
| a2hill | All hail toaster! | 23:22 |
| a2hill | lol | 23:22 |
| a2hill | that works too! | 23:22 |
| a2hill | I'm ok with whatever! The naming arguments always gets me, I see why theyre important to some degree, I'm just horrible at it and think its silly to spend too much time on things like that. JS | 23:23 |
| a2hill | but battlestart-loadtallica sounds pretty slick ;) | 23:23 |
| sbalukoff | Only two difficult problems in computer science: Cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors. | 23:24 |
| a2hill | ^^^ | 23:24 |
| a2hill | lol | 23:24 |
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| * rm_work just finished dealing with cache invalidation in python-barbicanclient, naming is a nice reprieve | 23:37 | |
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