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| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Batch sync change by commit tasks https://review.openstack.org/172691 | 00:51 |
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| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Batch sync change by commit tasks https://review.openstack.org/172691 | 00:57 |
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| jeblair | tchaypo: ^ there's another one for you. It should get rid of a large number of simple, serial http requeusts (which probably each take a second or so for you) | 00:58 |
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| tchaypo | Oooooooooooh | 00:59 |
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| openstackgerrit | Steven Dake proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Make a check experiemtal bandit for for python-magnumclient https://review.openstack.org/172460 | 01:03 |
| openstackgerrit | Steven Dake proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Make a check experiemtal bandit for for python-magnumclient https://review.openstack.org/172460 | 01:05 |
| tchaypo | running it now | 01:05 |
| tchaypo | check experimental bandit? | 01:05 |
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| openstackgerrit | Steven Dake proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Make a check experimental bandit job for Magnum https://review.openstack.org/171954 | 01:07 |
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| openstackgerrit | Khai Do proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Add a job to build Gerrit javamelody plugin ver 2.10 https://review.openstack.org/172692 | 01:12 |
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| tchaypo | jeblair: yeah, that last patch has an enormous impact | 03:55 |
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| tchaypo | doing a full refresh a few seconds after the last one, the queue hits about 70 for me | 03:58 |
| tchaypo | without that patch it drops at a rate of about 1 per second | 03:58 |
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| tchaypo | hrm. Actually a bit of A/B testing suggests it’s not quite that simple | 04:01 |
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| tchaypo | jeblair: i have a log file for you with some weird behaviour. After starting gertty, it seems to do a full sync (queue hits 70 then drops to 0 in a few seconds) followed by a second slower sync (queue hits 70 again but this time drops at a rate of two/three per second or so) | 04:02 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack-infra/project-config: Run keystoneclient functional tests on master only https://review.openstack.org/172658 | 06:35 |
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| openstackgerrit | Boris Pavlovic proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Move Rally to OpenStack https://review.openstack.org/172701 | 08:33 |
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| dstanek | jeblair: gui was a little tongue-in-cheek. thanks for the feedback, i'll take a look a little later today | 11:49 |
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| jeblair | tchaypo: okay, please send me the log file (same place as last time) | 12:15 |
| jeblair | dstanek: heh, tounge-in-cheek is fine; i leave it at your discretion :) | 12:16 |
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| openstackgerrit | Joshua Hesketh proposed openstack-infra/os-loganalyze: Add support for non-text files https://review.openstack.org/107267 | 12:20 |
| openstackgerrit | Joshua Hesketh proposed openstack-infra/os-loganalyze: Tidy up generators into contained objects https://review.openstack.org/172711 | 12:20 |
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| bknudson | http://logs.openstack.org/56/172256/3/check/gate-tempest-dsvm-neutron-src-python-keystoneclient/6b9954b/logs/screen-s-proxy.txt.gz | 14:28 |
| bknudson | Looks like swift-proxy is failing to start | 14:28 |
| bknudson | pkg_resources.ContextualVersionConflict: (python-keystoneclient 1.1.0.post1 (/opt/stack/new/python-keystoneclient), Requirement.parse('python-keystoneclient<=1.1.0,>=0.10.0'), set(['ceilometer'])) | 14:28 |
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| bknudson | this is on keystoneclient stable/juno branch | 14:33 |
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| bknudson | global requirements has "python-keystoneclient>=0.10.0,<=1.1.0" on stable/juno. | 14:34 |
| fungi | looks like stable/juno python-keystoneclient is capped <=1.1.0 and the stable/juno branch tip of it has a 1.1.0 tag present? | 14:34 |
| fungi | yup | 14:35 |
| fungi | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/python-keystoneclient/log/?h=stable/juno | 14:35 |
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| fungi | the tip of that branch is tagged 1.1.0 which is too new for http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/requirements/tree/global-requirements.txt?h=stable%2Fjuno#n112 | 14:35 |
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| bknudson | so the 1.0.0 tag should have been picked for the branch? | 14:36 |
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| bknudson | I'm wondering why it's <=1.1.0 and not <1.2? | 14:37 |
| fungi | the <=1.1.0 says up to and including 1.1.0 which means any commits after 1.1.0 are going to get development versions newer than works there (1.1.0.post1 et cetera) | 14:37 |
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| fungi | i agree <= is a silly choice for a cap | 14:37 |
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| fungi | it should have been, e.g., <1.2.0 and then made sure not to release any 1.2.x versions with non-backward-compatible changes (and release them only from its stable/juno branch) | 14:38 |
| fungi | er, any 1.1.x versions | 14:38 |
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| bknudson | I think that was the plan... unless 1.1.0 was picked for the branch where 1.0.0 should have been used... | 14:39 |
| bknudson | but then the req <=1.2.0 makes no sense. | 14:39 |
| fungi | well, there was a screwup like that for keystonemiddleware which i helped morganfainberg correct a couple days ago, but he double-checked kclient at the time and was fine with it | 14:40 |
| bknudson | I mean req <=1.1.0. | 14:40 |
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| bknudson | keystonemiddleware>=1.0.0,<1.4.0 | 14:40 |
| bknudson | that one has <1.4.0 which makes sense. | 14:40 |
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| fungi | right | 14:40 |
| bknudson | so maybe it's just the requirements is off. | 14:40 |
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| fungi | could be. i'd check for outstanding changes proposed to fix it, but it's sundau | 14:41 |
| fungi | sunday too | 14:41 |
| fungi | my grill is calling | 14:41 |
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| fungi | but yeah, my guess is that juno should say <1.2.0 rather than <=1.1.0 | 14:45 |
| fungi | because <= is a very strange way to cap things you're also going to test from source | 14:46 |
| bknudson | I'll propose the g-r change | 14:46 |
| fungi | i think <= was being used for other dependencies where we couldn't trust them to follow semver, but it definitely won'r work for stable branch src jobs | 14:47 |
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| bknudson | should I just do keystoneclient or all the *clients ? (if they're not correct, haven't checked) | 14:47 |
| bknudson | python-ceilometerclient>=1.0.6,<=1.0.12 | 14:48 |
| bknudson | some of them as expected -- python-neutronclient>=2.3.6,<2.4.0 | 14:48 |
| fungi | we should probably do them all (any library with a stable branch, especially if it's got src job variants running for those branches) | 14:48 |
| bknudson | They don't all have stable branches... none for python-ceilometerclient. | 14:52 |
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| bknudson | I'm still going to update them all just in case a stable branch gets created... seems like we wanted all the libs to have stable branches. | 14:53 |
| fungi | agreed. i just don't know if someone was proposing those stable reqs updates incrementally as each lib got its wings^H^H^H^H^Hstable branches | 14:53 |
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| bknudson | gerritbot -- https://review.openstack.org/#/c/172718/1 and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/172719/ are the g-r changes. | 14:58 |
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| mordred | btw: http://engineering.pinterest.com/post/116038532184/learn-to-stop-using-shiny-new-things-and-love | 15:11 |
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| BobBall | Any ideas why nodepool might create nodes, get registered in jenkins, but never run jobs? I've tested connection to gearman from jenkins and that's fine, but it seems that zuul never sees the nodes | 15:18 |
| fungi | BobBall: is the jenkins-gearman plugin enabled? | 15:19 |
| BobBall | enabled for all jobs, yes | 15:20 |
| BobBall | Are there any useful log files that might give a clue? | 15:20 |
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| fungi | in /var/log/jenkins | 15:22 |
| BobBall | I might have just found one actually... zuul merger is complaining about a bad SSH key so it can't clone a repository | 15:22 |
| fungi | i assume you've already checked the gearman admin protocol's "status" command output and confirmed that only zuul's built-in workers are present | 15:22 |
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| fungi | oh, well problems with zuul-merger aren't going to prevent your jenkins workers from registering in gearman though | 15:23 |
| fungi | when you say "zuul never sees the nodes" i'm interpreting that as they're not listed in the gearman status | 15:24 |
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| BobBall | No - I hadn't checked the gearman status... *looks up how to do that* | 15:24 |
| BobBall | oh. Heh. So I restarted zuul-merger and it's all working now. | 15:24 |
| fungi | use something like netcat to connect to the gearman socket and enter the word "status" | 15:25 |
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| BobBall | very useful, thanks. | 15:25 |
| fungi | so, yeah, not a gearman problem, and zuul did actually "see" your nodes | 15:25 |
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| BobBall | yes - I see now. The status command is useful and will hopefully help me understand more next time something goes wrong. | 15:27 |
| fungi | absolutely. you should be able to see the pending counts for various jobs (jenkins and those internal to zuul) that way, as well as the number of workers registered to handle them and any which are actively processing them | 15:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | Khai Do proposed openstack-infra/puppet-gerrit: Fix Gerrit mimetype setting for direct downloading of files https://review.openstack.org/172722 | 15:57 |
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| bknudson | something must not have done semver properly since https://review.openstack.org/#/c/172719/ failed ... seems to be picked up newer oslo.config | 16:43 |
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| bknudson | swift-proxy is really good at catching these things. | 16:44 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sumit Naiksatam proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Move GBP experimental job to check queue https://review.openstack.org/172726 | 17:22 |
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| mrmartin | er | 17:29 |
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| fungi | mrmartin: hey there, i just replied to reed's e-mail after i got the site back up and running | 17:31 |
| mrmartin | hi fungi | 17:32 |
| mrmartin | so | 17:32 |
| mrmartin | something is leaking | 17:32 |
| fungi | certainly seems that way | 17:32 |
| mrmartin | could be interesting to see whether we experience some extra traffic that can cause this | 17:32 |
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| mrmartin | as a temporary workaround what do you think about a daily scheduled redis restart as a workaround until we don't have a permanent solution? | 17:33 |
| mrmartin | and add ask.openstack.org into cacti, and measure redis memory consumption | 17:34 |
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| mrmartin | what was the ip of the previous ask.o.o instance? | 17:34 |
| fungi | mrmartin: 166.78.49.245 or 2001:4800:7811:0513:3bc3:d7f6:ff04:afd3 | 17:37 |
| mrmartin | I check the original redis config there | 17:38 |
| fungi | if you see anything in its /etc/redis.conf which might have been keeping it happy, we should try adding it to the one in puppet | 17:38 |
| mrmartin | yeap, I plan to do a quick diff | 17:39 |
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| mrmartin | what is the exact error msg in the logs you see? | 17:41 |
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| mrmartin | fungi: I found one difference | 17:48 |
| mrmartin | maxmemory have a default setting to 1GB in puppet-redis module | 17:49 |
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| fungi | yeah, i saw that, we had it lowered to 256m in openstack_project::ask | 17:49 |
| fungi | and then i bumpted that to 512m last week | 17:49 |
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| fungi | er, bumped | 17:49 |
| fungi | mrmartin: the error in the apache logs is "ResponseError: command not allowed when used memory > 'maxmemory'" | 17:50 |
| mrmartin | strange, because we are using the same redis for openstackid, and it works well there | 17:50 |
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| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack-infra/system-config: Add ask.o.o to cacti https://review.openstack.org/172729 | 17:54 |
| jeblair | mrmartin, fungi: ^ | 17:54 |
| fungi | jeblair: thanks! | 17:55 |
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| jeblair | in-session conference hacking! | 17:56 |
| fungi | mrmartin: i'm not sure restarting redis will help either. i think when i was troubleshooting it last week, restarting without raising the memory limit just started it back up in an already broken state | 17:57 |
| fungi | the maxmemory configuration setting seems to mean "break horribly once you start using this much memory" | 17:57 |
| mrmartin | fungi, are you executed a flushall ? | 17:57 |
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| fungi | mrmartin: i did not, simply restarted the service. that's probably what i was missing | 17:58 |
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| mrmartin | yeah, I suggest to do a flushall to empty the cache | 17:58 |
| fungi | e.g. ran `service redis restart` | 17:58 |
| mrmartin | I'm not sure that it is a redis issue | 18:00 |
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| mrmartin | this option is missing from redis.conf: maxmemory-policy allkeys-lru | 18:03 |
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| mrmartin | it defaults to volatile-lru | 18:05 |
| mrmartin | remove the keys which have an expire-set, meanwhule the allkeys-lru evict keys trying to remove the less recently used (LRU) keys first, in order to make space for the new data added. | 18:06 |
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| mrmartin | this key is missing from puppet-redis template | 18:07 |
| mrmartin | I make the patch for that | 18:08 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack-infra/system-config: Add ask.o.o to cacti https://review.openstack.org/172729 | 18:08 |
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| openstackgerrit | Marton Kiss proposed openstack-infra/puppet-redis: Add maxmemory-policy configurable https://review.openstack.org/172731 | 18:15 |
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| mrmartin | fungi, jeblair ^^^ | 18:15 |
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| jeblair | mrmartin: was that set on the old server? | 18:17 |
| dstanek | jeblair: do you have a few mins today to chat? i have a quick question about my gertty changes | 18:17 |
| mrmartin | yeap | 18:17 |
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| mrmartin | that was the only interesting difference of redis.conf | 18:18 |
| fungi | that would explain why we're getting keys piling up in redis on the new server | 18:18 |
| mrmartin | I hope it solves our problem, maybe lowering the maxmemory to 128mb can bring out this memory issue faster | 18:18 |
| jeblair | mrmartin: +2; i'm at a conference so should not aprv right now | 18:18 |
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| fungi | i'll approve and babysit it into production | 18:19 |
| jeblair | dstanek: sure thing, i'm going to 511 next (pbs QoS), want to catch me after that (15:00)? or meet somewhere around that time? | 18:19 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack-infra/puppet-redis: Add maxmemory-policy configurable https://review.openstack.org/172731 | 18:41 |
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| openstackgerrit | Christoph Gysin proposed stackforge/gertty: tox: Fix flake8 setup https://review.openstack.org/172734 | 18:54 |
| openstackgerrit | Christoph Gysin proposed stackforge/gertty: flake8: Fix whitespace https://review.openstack.org/172735 | 18:54 |
| openstackgerrit | Christoph Gysin proposed stackforge/gertty: flake8: Fix E251,E261,E262 https://review.openstack.org/172736 | 18:54 |
| openstackgerrit | Christoph Gysin proposed stackforge/gertty: flake8: Fix E721 https://review.openstack.org/172737 | 18:54 |
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| openstackgerrit | Christoph Gysin proposed stackforge/gertty: flake8: Fix F821,F841 https://review.openstack.org/172738 | 18:54 |
| openstackgerrit | Christoph Gysin proposed stackforge/gertty: flake8: Fix E711,E712 https://review.openstack.org/172739 | 18:54 |
| openstackgerrit | Christoph Gysin proposed stackforge/gertty: flake8: Fix F401,F403 https://review.openstack.org/172740 | 18:54 |
| openstackgerrit | Christoph Gysin proposed stackforge/gertty: flake8: Break lines longer than 109 chars https://review.openstack.org/172741 | 18:54 |
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| fungi | wow | 18:56 |
| fungi | that's a lot of whitespace | 18:56 |
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| mordred | jeblair: I have an option for you ... | 19:00 |
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| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Add notes on pep8 and pyflakes https://review.openstack.org/172743 | 19:08 |
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| fungi | mrmartin: redis-server is restarted on ask.o.o with that config update in place and seems is doing fine back at the maxmemory 512m now, so that seems to have fixed it i think. thanks! | 19:16 |
| fungi | i'll keep an eye on it throughout the evening to make sure it stays operational | 19:16 |
| mrmartin | fungi, great, let's wait what happens. | 19:16 |
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| openstackgerrit | Steven Dake proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Make a check experiemtal bandit for for python-magnumclient https://review.openstack.org/172460 | 19:44 |
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| openstackgerrit | Monty Taylor proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Add gleam to infra https://review.openstack.org/172749 | 20:04 |
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| openstackgerrit | Monty Taylor proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Add glean to infra https://review.openstack.org/172749 | 20:08 |
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| * fungi wonders which it is | 20:13 | |
| mordred | fungi: :) | 20:13 |
| mordred | fungi: turns out "gleam" is taken on pypi | 20:13 |
| fungi | that latest patchset changes the commit subject, but not the files (not all at least) | 20:13 |
| mordred | which means my gleaming the cube reference is undercut | 20:13 |
| mordred | oh - piddle. thanks | 20:13 |
| openstackgerrit | Monty Taylor proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Add glean to infra https://review.openstack.org/172749 | 20:14 |
| mordred | that should do it | 20:14 |
| mordred | greghaynes: ^^ | 20:14 |
| mordred | greghaynes: I found a couple of places where the tests leaked the executing environment | 20:15 |
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| mordred | greghaynes: (it's pretty obvious since my laptop does not have a working eth0 :) ) | 20:15 |
| fungi | mordred: hrm, i'm having trouble cloning from that url | 20:18 |
| mordred | fungi: OH! they seem to not support git urls... | 20:19 |
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| openstackgerrit | Monty Taylor proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Add glean to infra https://review.openstack.org/172749 | 20:19 |
| mordred | fungi: https://gitorious.org/mordred-temp/glean.git | 20:19 |
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| fungi | yep, that's what i suggested in my review comment | 20:22 |
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| mordred | fungi: I believe I agree with your review comment | 20:23 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: flake8: Fix F821,F841 https://review.openstack.org/172738 | 20:24 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: flake8: Fix F401,F403 https://review.openstack.org/172740 | 20:24 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Add notes on pep8 and pyflakes https://review.openstack.org/172743 | 20:24 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Add extra note about pep8 https://review.openstack.org/172751 | 20:24 |
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| jeblair | flake8 finds bugs ^ :) | 20:24 |
| jeblair | er pyflakes, that is | 20:24 |
| mordred | jeblair: yah. flake8 is good | 20:25 |
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| mordred | jeblair: you have a trailing whitespace in that patch ;) | 20:26 |
| jeblair | mordred: you have something on your chin.... | 20:28 |
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| morganfainberg | fungi, looks like we messed up on the keystoneclient branch as well :( | 20:36 |
| morganfainberg | fungi, sorry | 20:36 |
| morganfainberg | fungi, for stable/juno | 20:37 |
| morganfainberg | i'm chasing down wtf is going on | 20:37 |
| morganfainberg | but basically looks like ceilometer has a bad requirements | 20:38 |
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| morganfainberg | or something | 20:38 |
| morganfainberg | oh i see what is up. | 20:39 |
| morganfainberg | looks like g-r needs to be fixed to be <1.2.0 not <=1.1.0 | 20:39 |
| * morganfainberg shakes fist at the capping headaches | 20:40 | |
| jeblair | morganfainberg: i've seen that in channel here before -- you may want to check scrollback | 20:42 |
| jeblair | morganfainberg: (i'm not really up on things, just trying to fyi since i saw something similar scroll by earlier) | 20:43 |
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| morganfainberg | jeblair, yeah i *think* https://review.openstack.org/172753 will fix my issue | 20:43 |
| morganfainberg | but basically 1.1.0.post2 > 1.1.0 | 20:43 |
| morganfainberg | so 1.1.0.post2 fails. | 20:44 |
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| morganfainberg | i *think* | 20:44 |
| morganfainberg | and then we need to go prod the other projects | 20:44 |
| morganfainberg | but right now I can't land anything in keystoneclient because the requirements can't resolve | 20:45 |
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| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: flake8: Fix F821,F841 https://review.openstack.org/172738 | 20:51 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: flake8: Fix F401,F403 https://review.openstack.org/172740 | 20:51 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Add extra note about pep8 https://review.openstack.org/172751 | 20:51 |
| fungi | morganfainberg: yeah, i think bknudson is trying to address in https://review.openstack.org/172718 and/or https://review.openstack.org/172719 | 20:52 |
| morganfainberg | ah cool i can abandon mine it looks like | 20:52 |
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| morganfainberg | fungi, thankfully keystonemiddleware was already a <1.X.0 | 20:54 |
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| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Don't display draft approvals in change list https://review.openstack.org/172755 | 21:04 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged stackforge/gertty: tox: Fix flake8 setup https://review.openstack.org/172734 | 21:07 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged stackforge/gertty: Add notes on pep8 and pyflakes https://review.openstack.org/172743 | 21:08 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged stackforge/gertty: flake8: Fix F821,F841 https://review.openstack.org/172738 | 21:08 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged stackforge/gertty: flake8: Fix F401,F403 https://review.openstack.org/172740 | 21:08 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged stackforge/gertty: Add extra note about pep8 https://review.openstack.org/172751 | 21:08 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged stackforge/gertty: Don't display draft approvals in change list https://review.openstack.org/172755 | 21:08 |
| jeblair | and of course that just made all of the outstanding changes have merge conflicts. though overall, i still think it's worth it for pyflakes. | 21:10 |
| jeblair | well, all but one | 21:11 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged stackforge/gertty: Add is:watched to p_is_term() https://review.openstack.org/168495 | 21:11 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged stackforge/gertty: Explain how to install on openSUSE https://review.openstack.org/172470 | 21:13 |
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| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Fix searching for message https://review.openstack.org/172667 | 21:19 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Do not enqueue duplicate tasks https://review.openstack.org/172650 | 21:20 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Support regexes in search https://review.openstack.org/172649 | 21:20 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Make "limit" a noop in queries https://review.openstack.org/172670 | 21:20 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Fix searching by reviewer account id https://review.openstack.org/172669 | 21:20 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Batch sync change by commit tasks https://review.openstack.org/172691 | 21:20 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed stackforge/gertty: Fix age searching https://review.openstack.org/172668 | 21:20 |
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| notmyname | mordred: should I expect any issues proposing a merge commit from feature/* to master later this week? | 23:01 |
| notmyname | mordred: ie I expect everything to work. just checking if that's true | 23:02 |
| mordred | notmyname: no issues I can think of | 23:02 |
| notmyname | mordred: ok, great :-) | 23:02 |
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| notmyname | mordred: I'm likely to do it tuesday around lunch (pacific) | 23:03 |
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| jhesketh | Morning | 23:09 |
| mordred | jhesketh: morning! | 23:12 |
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| dstufft | mordred: I demand you please my pedantic world view | 23:15 |
| dstufft | :D | 23:15 |
| mordred | dstufft: :) | 23:15 |
| mordred | dstufft: I try every chance I get | 23:16 |
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| dstufft | mordred: fwiw from a future (tm) stand point it doesn't really matter which way pbr goes, the only difference between then and now is you'll bake the requirements into some static metadata at sdist creation time instead of re-parsing it on every setup.py invocation | 23:17 |
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| mordred | dstufft: yah - I Think that day is a lovely future state | 23:17 |
| mordred | dstufft: for now though, I honestly don't understand the problem we're solving since metadata-2.0 isn't available yet - it seems like churn for no benefit | 23:18 |
| tchaypo | jeblair: thanks. | 23:19 |
| tchaypo | I’m looking forward to giving it a proper workout tomorrow morning | 23:19 |
| dstufft | mordred: I do think it contributes to the confusion around what requirements.txt and install_requires actually _do_, and it teaches people that requirements.txt is where you define that thing which is knowledge that won't transfer to a non openstack project | 23:19 |
| dstufft | mordred: I don't know if the churn is worth it, but I think it does mean that the concepts people learn via openstack will translate better to other python projects | 23:20 |
| tchaypo | dstufft: more than that - I think that requires.txt and install_requires *do different things*, and pbr takes away functionality by trying to pretend they’re the same | 23:21 |
| tchaypo | but I seem to be missing context. Will re-read logs over coffee | 23:21 |
| mordred | tchaypo: we do it on purpose | 23:21 |
| dstufft | tchaypo: there's a mailing list thread | 23:22 |
| mordred | dstufft: I'm not sure I agree that the difference is pervasive | 23:22 |
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| mordred | dstufft: as in, I do not concede that "people" get this right in other places | 23:22 |
| mordred | larely beacuse setuptools has been so broken for so long | 23:22 |
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| dstufft | mordred: There's confusion in the python world where people think pip will recursively read requirements.txt files, I think pbr contributes to that by teaching people that it does that where they don't realize that functionality is provided by pbr and isn't an inherient part of pip or the other packaging tools | 23:23 |
| dstufft | I don't think it's all pbr's fault though | 23:23 |
| mordred | dstufft: totally | 23:23 |
| mordred | I agree with both statements | 23:23 |
| mordred | I honestly think we got behind the 8-ball in this area during the chasing of distutils2 | 23:24 |
| mordred | and in teh mean time, some patterns emerged in the world | 23:24 |
| dstufft | (To be clear, I have a strong opinion that the way pbr does it is wrong, but I don't have a strong opinion about whether it makes sense for pbr to change at this point since that's going to be disruptive and I don't know that you'll ever be able to _stop_ reading a requirements.txt file so it might end up making things more magical than before) | 23:26 |
| tchaypo | to look at this from a different angle | 23:26 |
| mordred | I think this is the "right" way: http://doc.crates.io/guide.html#cargo.toml-vs-cargo.lock | 23:26 |
| tchaypo | let me find link.. | 23:26 |
| mordred | and until we get to that, we'll be all doing it the wrong way | 23:27 |
| mordred | because that is very clear and understandable and behaves as expected every single time | 23:27 |
| mordred | which none of our current approaches do | 23:27 |
| mordred | pbr may be doing it wrong currently | 23:27 |
| tchaypo | actually I just saw the title of the thread and I think it says what I was about to say | 23:27 |
| tchaypo | but if lifeless is saying it he probably says it better than me | 23:27 |
| dstufft | mordred: I don't actually think that's the right way for Python, because the difference between Python and Rust is that you don't deploy rust using cargo, cargo is entirely a build tool | 23:28 |
| mordred | but I contend that every other way is just as broken currently | 23:28 |
| mordred | dstufft: sure - but I think the semantic distinctions are important, as are the thing that is communicated in terms of how someone interacts with it in their source repo | 23:28 |
| dstufft | mordred: not sure I understand that sentence | 23:29 |
| mordred | what's right about it is that it contains a clear description of "do this, put this file here, put this file in git, these things will happen" | 23:29 |
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| dstufft | ah right, the python toolchain sucks at documentation and sucks at user friendly, and it's sort of inevitable given that requirements.txt are more user friendly than setup.py. That's basically just due to history and we're trying to move away from that :D | 23:30 |
| mordred | yah | 23:31 |
| mordred | :) | 23:31 |
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| mordred | the python toolchain has also historically sucked at telling anyone that there is One Obvious Way to do anything | 23:31 |
| mordred | which is HI-LARIOUS | 23:31 |
| dstufft | yea | 23:31 |
| mordred | config choices == failure in most cases related to this | 23:32 |
| dstufft | that largely comes from the fact that there was no coherent vision for what the toolchain should look like or act, and we just tacked on whatever features people wanted for whatever strange situation people were in | 23:32 |
| mordred | yup | 23:32 |
| dstufft | and we had nobody saying "yes" or "no" at the top, so th esolutions that got through were the ultra flexible ones (at the expense of sanity) | 23:32 |
| mordred | pbr does have a strong opinion on right vs. wrong and it enforces it. so, if we go to a split model like lifeless proposes, we need to be able to expresss clearly and articulately so that a python n00b can understand the waht and the why | 23:33 |
| lifeless | oh look | 23:33 |
| lifeless | people | 23:33 |
| mordred | because it can do that right now | 23:33 |
| * lifeless reads backlog | 23:33 | |
| dstufft | (at least half of what I do is be an opinionated jerk who'll push back on crazy) | 23:33 |
| dstufft | as far as packaging tooling goes | 23:34 |
| mordred | dstufft: it's why we get along :) | 23:34 |
| dstufft | (let's just talk for a moment about the fact that linking to my blog post about requirements.txt is part of the documentation about how you should use requirements.txt) | 23:36 |
| mordred | :) | 23:36 |
| mordred | dstufft: the part where I still disagree with you on that, btw, is that non-versioned dependencies in libraries do not work most of the time | 23:38 |
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| mordred | dstufft: beacuse most of the python libraries out there break the world all the time | 23:38 |
| mordred | I _firmly_ agree about not including information about where to get things | 23:39 |
| dstufft | mordred: so "unversioned" isn't exactly what I mean, it's more about "use the least restrictive specifier that, given the project's policies, you think will continue to work" | 23:39 |
| dstufft | compared to == | 23:39 |
| mordred | yes | 23:39 |
| dstufft | for some projects it might even be == (but seriously, don't use those projects) | 23:40 |
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| mordred | yes - I agree with this | 23:40 |
| mordred | although I think that _nova_ should have == pins for everyting | 23:40 |
| mordred | because I don't expect things to import nova | 23:40 |
| mordred | and everyhting breaks it constantly because people are bad people | 23:40 |
| mordred | I keep losing that battle though | 23:40 |
| mordred | :) | 23:40 |
| mordred | for the others, I think we're in strict agrement - the version ranges we have _Are_ the least restrictive version ranges we can provide | 23:41 |
| mordred | we almost never change them except in response to a) someone needing to express a lower bounds because they started using a new feature of a library or b) something actually broke | 23:41 |
| dstufft | yea I don't have any problems with the content of the requirements.txt from pbr, jsut the location | 23:41 |
| mordred | yah - and I'm fine with putting them in setup.cfg ... I just don't care enough to have done the work to change the tooling around it | 23:42 |
| mordred | I _don't_ think we need them in two places - that's confusing | 23:42 |
| lifeless | ok, read up | 23:43 |
| dstufft | I think if pbr were starting fresh it'd be a no brainer to put them in setup.cfg | 23:43 |
| mordred | dstufft: ++ | 23:43 |
| lifeless | rust cargo is entirely unlike pip and pbr | 23:43 |
| mordred | lifeless: yes. we already covered that :) | 23:43 |
| dstufft | backwards compatability and such makes it a harder question | 23:43 |
| lifeless | but you had the reason its unlike it wrong | 23:43 |
| mordred | oh, ok. cool | 23:44 |
| lifeless | I had to dig a little | 23:44 |
| lifeless | cargo is a source only package manager | 23:44 |
| mordred | yes. as is pip | 23:44 |
| lifeless | no | 23:44 |
| * mordred waves hands at wheels | 23:44 | |
| lifeless | cargo only goes as far as setuptools | 23:44 |
| dstufft | pip is more like apt-get than pbuilder | 23:44 |
| lifeless | doesn't even know how to install | 23:44 |
| mordred | sure | 23:44 |
| mordred | that's what dstufft was saying | 23:45 |
| dstufft | cargo is more like pbuilder than apt-get | 23:45 |
| lifeless | more pedantically, it only covers easy_install :) | 23:45 |
| lifeless | yup | 23:45 |
| mordred | actually | 23:45 |
| dstufft | <insert favorite debian build tool thing> | 23:45 |
| mordred | I tink you're both wrong | 23:45 |
| dstufft | unpossible, I'm never wrong | 23:45 |
| mordred | because rust produces staticaly compiled binaries | 23:45 |
| mordred | "installing" is not a complex task | 23:45 |
| mordred | so doesn't have a tool | 23:45 |
| mordred | "install" is "cp target/release/foo /usr/local/bin/" | 23:46 |
| mordred | done | 23:46 |
| dstufft | jsut because it doesn't have an apt-get equivilant doesn't mean that cargo is apt-get | 23:46 |
| mordred | there is no run-time linking needed, or run-time dependency installation needed | 23:46 |
| mordred | you don't have to install depends | 23:46 |
| mordred | because depends are strictly a compile-time action | 23:46 |
| lifeless | mordred: except for associated artifacts like .mo files | 23:46 |
| mordred | it still doesn't have run time deps | 23:47 |
| mordred | which is the hard part | 23:47 |
| dstufft | I'm working with people who are trying to get something like a "statically compiled" binary for Python, and you won't build those with pip because pip isn't a build tool | 23:47 |
| mordred | and which is where this all comes off the rails anywya | 23:47 |
| mordred | I'm not saying that pip should make static binaries - i agree, that would be crazy | 23:47 |
| mordred | I'm saying that as a developer, your interaction with the tools fills the same personal space | 23:47 |
| mordred | "installing" a rust libarary is a non-action | 23:48 |
| mordred | it isn't a thing you do | 23:48 |
| lifeless | debian will force it to be | 23:48 |
| lifeless | sadly | 23:48 |
| mordred | so "pip install requests" doesnt' have an analogue - EXCEPT - at build time | 23:48 |
| lifeless | [hhos] | 23:48 |
| mordred | lifeless: well, don't even get me started o nthat - we'll rathole too quickly | 23:48 |
| lifeless | mordred: we need hard liquor for that | 23:48 |
| mordred | yah | 23:49 |
| lifeless | ok so | 23:49 |
| lifeless | problem statement | 23:49 |
| mordred | s/statement/statement for openstack/ | 23:49 |
| lifeless | today, we have docs that contradict what folk will find if they read the docs for the lower layers of the tooling | 23:49 |
| lifeless | we tell folk to use pip | 23:49 |
| lifeless | but we also tell folk to do things differently to pip, for mostly historic reasons | 23:50 |
| mordred | raelly? | 23:50 |
| mordred | can you give an example? | 23:50 |
| lifeless | requirements.txt | 23:50 |
| mordred | nono | 23:50 |
| mordred | we don't tell people to do thigns with that | 23:50 |
| mordred | or, I believe your example may be to general | 23:50 |
| SpamapS | Side noet: AFAICT Debian has all the pieces in place to start shipping static binaries btw. The security team is just unwilling or unable to provide the automation to be sure all 'Built-Using' are specified properly, and then rebuild machinery to rebuild everything when a lib is updated. | 23:50 |
| mordred | "I want to install python-novaclient" | 23:50 |
| lifeless | mordred: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/pbr/#requirements | 23:51 |
| tchaypo | So it seems to be that one of the big differences between apt-get and pip is that apt-get has a per-environment database of dependencies and tries not to ever break any installed package’s dependencies | 23:51 |
| mordred | lifeless: yes - that is how to develop on a source repo that uses pbr | 23:51 |
| lifeless | mordred: which is something we give people guidance for | 23:51 |
| tchaypo | whereas pip only looks at the dependencies of the package it’s installing right this second and will happily conflict with packages it installed 3 minutes ago | 23:51 |
| lifeless | tchaypo: no, thats not entirely true | 23:52 |
| mordred | lifeless: can you please tie that back to the problem statement - I'm not sure how we're telling peopel to interact with pip differently | 23:52 |
| tchaypo | which leads to some of the broken tests we have now - package A is installed, which pulls in version x.y.z of package B; then package C is installed and B is upgraded to x.y+2.0, and then the app from package A refuses to run | 23:52 |
| lifeless | one of the things I've uncovered in the last few weeks is that openstack folk have not actually debugged where pip and Openstack CI needs have gone awry | 23:52 |
| lifeless | e.g. one of the big failures actually turns out to be a setuptools bug | 23:52 |
| SpamapS | tchaypo: I think what you meant is, apt-get generally has a distribution team that tries not to break things. The actual dependency resolver that exists in apt-get is a symptom of this. :) | 23:53 |
| lifeless | (it doesn't handle an installed but incompatible setup_requires). | 23:53 |
| tchaypo | could you expand on what you mean by “where pip and Openstack CI needs have gone awry”? | 23:53 |
| dstufft | tchaypo: so that's a difference, but it's not a "core" difference, its not inherent to what makes pip, pip. Just nobody has gotten around to fixing it | 23:53 |
| lifeless | tchaypo: e.g. when I bumped setup_requires for testtools and broke the world in openstack | 23:53 |
| mordred | yeah - honestly - this is a hard enough topic - let's not add general statements | 23:53 |
| tchaypo | does “gone awry” mean “diverged” or “are doing a thing that makes everyone’s life harder”? | 23:53 |
| mordred | I'd really like to understand the current tangible problem that modifying how we do things in pbr will be addressing | 23:54 |
| mordred | because I _know_ the general situation is a mess | 23:54 |
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| tchaypo | this is true. | 23:54 |
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| lifeless | tchaypo: I mean, there are about three folk that understand whats really happening, and none of them are involved in the day-to-day,so problems get written off as 'pip needs a resolver' which is not actually the cause of the problem that bit us. Or even more than tangentially related. | 23:54 |
| lifeless | tchaypo: can we finish this arc and get back to the thing mordred and I were discussing? | 23:55 |
| tchaypo | yes, sorry | 23:55 |
| lifeless | mordred: so the specific problem I was raising is nothing to do with the behaviour of people merely using openstack packages. | 23:55 |
| tchaypo | I agree that this is tangential | 23:55 |
| lifeless | mordred: it was to do with the folk who are developing openstack packages | 23:56 |
| mordred | awesome | 23:56 |
| mordred | that's a good clarification | 23:56 |
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| lifeless | mordred: and that they can't follow the upstream docs, because pbr does something that is effectively incompatible | 23:56 |
| mordred | please define upstream | 23:56 |
| lifeless | setuptools and pip | 23:56 |
| lifeless | upstream of our tooling | 23:56 |
| mordred | there are no docs to follow | 23:56 |
| dstufft | there are some docs | 23:56 |
| mordred | the best there is is dstufft's blog post | 23:57 |
| dstufft | not great docs | 23:57 |
| mordred | there is no "do this" | 23:57 |
| mordred | so I reject a premise that people cannot follow something | 23:57 |
| mordred | because it simply does not exist | 23:57 |
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| dstufft | There are things like https://packaging.python.org/en/latest/distributing.html | 23:57 |
| mordred | right. ununderstandable by lay peple | 23:57 |
| lifeless | mordred: I call overly-pedantic. There is documentation. Folk asking for help in forums get consistent answers. | 23:57 |
| mordred | ok | 23:58 |
| mordred | so - but by that line of reasoning, using pbr is out | 23:58 |
| mordred | because we tell people to not edit setup.py | 23:58 |
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| mordred | they necessarily must operate differently | 23:58 |
| lifeless | Well, I'm working on that upstream. Nearly have pip beaten into shape, and then setuptools comes next. | 23:58 |
| mordred | but you'll never get it far enough | 23:58 |
| mordred | will you? | 23:59 |
| dstufft | I think that telling people "when using pbr, the things you normally define in setup.py goes in setup.cfg" is easier to explain the delta than "when using pbr the things you normally define in setup.py goes in setup.cfg and requirements.txt and test-requirements.txt etc" | 23:59 |
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| mordred | dstufft: sure- and that's a good point | 23:59 |
| lifeless | It seems entirely possible to get it to the point that pbr can shrink to just policy on top of the basic mechanism, rather than having to implement a large chunk of the mechanism. | 23:59 |
| mordred | lifeless: that would be neat | 23:59 |
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