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| openstackgerrit | Andreas Jaeger proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: add user landing pages for older releases https://review.openstack.org/486670 | 05:06 |
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| openstackgerrit | Alexandra Settle proposed openstack/openstack-manuals stable/newton: [install-guide] Adds memcached instructions to obs guide https://review.openstack.org/486942 | 08:38 |
| openstackgerrit | Alexandra Settle proposed openstack/openstack-manuals stable/ocata: [install-guide] Adds memcached instructions to obs guide https://review.openstack.org/486943 | 08:39 |
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| asettle | AJaeger: ^^ could you please grab those backports | 08:41 |
| asettle | See: https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1587777 for context if necessary | 08:41 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1587777 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "Mitaka: dashboard performance" [Undecided,New] | 08:41 |
| AJaeger | asettle: thanks, done | 08:45 |
| asettle | Thank you :) | 08:45 |
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| AJaeger | asettle: could you review dhellmann's series of changes to get rid of the 404s, please? | 08:45 |
| asettle | AJaeger: on it as we speak :) | 08:45 |
| AJaeger | great! | 08:45 |
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| AJaeger | 486210, 486294, 475227 are ready as well - but I might be biased on mine ;) | 08:47 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals stable/newton: [install-guide] Adds memcached instructions to obs guide https://review.openstack.org/486942 | 08:48 |
| asettle | AJaeger: you caught me looking at it :p | 08:49 |
| asettle | Okay, I think it should start falling now | 08:49 |
| asettle | I can't see anymore | 08:49 |
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| vharsh | Broken link -> https://docs.openstack.org/api/ found on -> https://docs.openstack.org/ocata/ | 08:51 |
| AJaeger | Let's merge and publish - and then review later whether the index pages are fine again... | 08:51 |
| asettle | vharsh: currently working on | 08:51 |
| AJaeger | vharsh: asettle just approved changes to correct this, please wait until publishing is done | 08:51 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals stable/ocata: [install-guide] Adds memcached instructions to obs guide https://review.openstack.org/486943 | 08:51 |
| asettle | AJaeger: okay | 08:51 |
| AJaeger | vharsh: should be fixed in two hours | 08:51 |
| vharsh | AJaeger, Thanks :) | 08:51 |
| AJaeger | vharsh: thanks for reporting | 08:51 |
| vharsh | AJaeger, I couldn't find the OpenStack book also Link -> https://docs.openstack.org/ops-guide/preface.html | 08:52 |
| asettle | vharsh: the operations guide was deleted - email was sent out a week or so ago? | 08:52 |
| asettle | You can find it (if necessary) in the before-migration tag in the openstack-manuals github repo :) | 08:52 |
| asettle | We are attempting to migrate that doc to the openstack wiki | 08:52 |
| asettle | And by 'we', I mean, the operators | 08:52 |
| vharsh | Thanks asettle :) | 08:52 |
| asettle | np - sorry for all the disruption, we're working on it all :D | 08:53 |
| asettle | AJaeger: what's next? | 08:54 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals stable/ocata: Update and expand cells config doc warning https://review.openstack.org/486724 | 08:54 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals master: run the link checks in parallel https://review.openstack.org/486728 | 08:54 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals master: add SERIES_TITLE template variable https://review.openstack.org/486209 | 08:55 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals master: add options to template generator to make it easier to only test links https://review.openstack.org/486729 | 08:55 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals master: remove series pages for EOL series https://review.openstack.org/486730 | 08:55 |
| asettle | Ah, here the yare | 08:55 |
| asettle | they are* | 08:55 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals master: add admin landing pages for older series https://review.openstack.org/486667 | 08:55 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals master: remove link to ops-guide from series landing pages https://review.openstack.org/486668 | 08:55 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals master: add api landing pages for older releases https://review.openstack.org/486669 | 08:55 |
| AJaeger | asettle: release notes is one discussion to have - with dhellmann later. | 08:55 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals master: add user landing pages for older releases https://review.openstack.org/486670 | 08:55 |
| AJaeger | asettle: I just read your comment on my change | 08:55 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals master: [www] Add install-guide for ceilometer https://review.openstack.org/486294 | 08:55 |
| asettle | AJaeger: yes absolutely. I just wanted to put my thoughts down | 08:55 |
| asettle | I'm happy to iterate | 08:55 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals master: [install-guide] The guide is version independent https://review.openstack.org/486210 | 08:56 |
| AJaeger | not sure what else is urgently needed - most should be on the futures etherpad. Will check back this evening again. | 08:56 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals stable/ocata: Update HyperVNovaCompute download https://review.openstack.org/475227 | 08:58 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals stable/ocata: Update the "neutron auto-allocated-topology-show" output https://review.openstack.org/475697 | 08:59 |
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| asettle | AJaeger: thanks :) | 09:03 |
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| openstackgerrit | Rob Cresswell proposed openstack/openstackdocstheme master: Serve minified CSS https://review.openstack.org/486956 | 09:20 |
| robcresswell | AJaeger, dhellmann, asettle: ^^ Thats my suggestion for serving minified CSS. It's fairly thoroughly explained in the commit message, though I may have misunderstood the requirements for stricter packaging ecosystems, like Debian. | 09:27 |
| robcresswell | minified css / js | 09:27 |
| asettle | Thanks robcresswell :) I'll get around to it shortly | 09:27 |
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| dhellmann | asettle, AJaeger : o/ | 10:29 |
| asettle | dhellmann: up early! | 10:29 |
| asettle | Malcolm... | 10:29 |
| dhellmann | actually, hungry human today | 10:30 |
| dhellmann | asettle : do you have time to have the release notes conversation or archiving conversation? | 10:31 |
| * dhellmann goes to check the kettle | 10:31 | |
| asettle | dhellmann: yeah man, you've got me for half an hour before I run off to lunch. | 10:31 |
| asettle | I'm fighting with the nova docs | 10:31 |
| asettle | I may just give up | 10:31 |
| dhellmann | that's the spirit! | 10:32 |
| asettle | I thought so | 10:32 |
| dhellmann | let's do release notes first | 10:32 |
| * asettle sits up straighter | 10:32 | |
| asettle | Okay | 10:32 |
| dhellmann | we're using reno for those, right? | 10:32 |
| asettle | We are indeed now, yes | 10:32 |
| dhellmann | ok | 10:32 |
| dhellmann | without branches, we'll need to maintain the list of versions for each series ourselves | 10:33 |
| dhellmann | that's not a big deal, but it's one more thing to do | 10:33 |
| dhellmann | so if we want series-specific pages, it's possible | 10:33 |
| asettle | dhellmann: so, reno isn't exactly entirely necessary for docs now - I mean, we included it at the beginning of this release because originally we were fumbling around with a million guides. | 10:33 |
| dhellmann | I don't feel strongly one way or the other for now | 10:33 |
| asettle | Prior to that we just wrote them manually per-release | 10:33 |
| dhellmann | but yeah, that's also true | 10:33 |
| dhellmann | we could just switch to writing the notes on the pages | 10:33 |
| dhellmann | that may actually be easier for folks to keep up with | 10:34 |
| asettle | I guess my point is, it would be easier to write something in a structured format (per cycle) than it would be for a reader to go 'oh wiat, what release was this?!' | 10:34 |
| dhellmann | yeah, reno will work, but it may be overkill | 10:34 |
| asettle | Little bit. It made sense when we had *all the things* | 10:34 |
| dhellmann | right | 10:34 |
| asettle | I guess I don't also want the release notes to be the responsibility of the PTL at the end of each release either | 10:35 |
| dhellmann | ok, so then maybe the plan is to migrate away from reno to just using regular rst pages | 10:35 |
| dhellmann | you'd still ask people to add release notes with their regular content changes, they would just not be reno files | 10:35 |
| asettle | omfg I think the nova docs just built omfg *passes out* | 10:35 |
| asettle | We have admittedly been very bad at that in the past. | 10:35 |
| asettle | But we would just have to ensure otherwise. | 10:35 |
| asettle | Which should be simple enough | 10:35 |
| dhellmann | yeah, deciding whether to use reno won't really have any bearing on that :-) | 10:36 |
| dhellmann | shall I put this down on the "future" page then? | 10:36 |
| dhellmann | asettle : what do you think about the idea of having release notes for each guide *in* that guide? | 10:37 |
| asettle | Let's. | 10:37 |
| asettle | dhellmann: that's not a bad idea, I could float with that. | 10:37 |
| dhellmann | a "history" or whatever | 10:37 |
| dhellmann | ok, noted | 10:38 |
| dhellmann | line 60 if you're reading along | 10:38 |
| dhellmann | so, talk to me about the requirements behind archiving | 10:38 |
| asettle | dhellmann: So, this discussion was chiefly Lana's domain, but I'll hand you what I know... | 10:40 |
| asettle | We wanted to come up with an archiving solution so we weren't storing *everything* on the web. I believe AJaeger said something about space requirements. My guess is that you don't want to overload the web server with so much content it will barely load | 10:40 |
| asettle | I could be wrong there. | 10:40 |
| asettle | Anyway, we were trying to come up with a solution that worked within our previous confines of having release specific documentation | 10:41 |
| asettle | Our solution at the time was creating tarball that the user would be able to download off the website, but was stored in github (I'd need to double check that) | 10:41 |
| asettle | Now, we have docs in a million different repos | 10:41 |
| dhellmann | probably stored on tarballs.openstack.org | 10:41 |
| asettle | I believe setuid has been looking into it (if he is awake?) | 10:41 |
| asettle | That'd be the one | 10:41 |
| dhellmann | I should skim the spec again | 10:42 |
| dhellmann | the main justification there has to do with removing EOL content | 10:42 |
| asettle | *nods* | 10:42 |
| dhellmann | oh, though it does mention the space thing for cloudsites | 10:43 |
| dhellmann | now that we're not hosted there, I don't know how much that's a factor | 10:43 |
| dhellmann | so that's something to check with fungi about | 10:43 |
| asettle | Here is the start of the thread that sparked it all: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-docs/2017-January/009493.html | 10:43 |
| asettle | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-docs/2017-January/subject.html | 10:43 |
| asettle | It was a *big* chat | 10:43 |
| dhellmann | oh, good, history | 10:43 |
| dhellmann | I'll read that today, too | 10:44 |
| dhellmann | I should do that before we get too far into details, but *if* we change the retention policy, do we still need archived docs? | 10:44 |
| asettle | Archiving was preferential to leaving EOL docs up and available. | 10:47 |
| asettle | Mostly because we want the user to be aware that this is not supported by dev. | 10:47 |
| asettle | That was another key factor. | 10:47 |
| dhellmann | ok | 10:48 |
| asettle | Also, at the time, our branches were being deleted - so we wouldn't be able to perform backports etc | 10:48 |
| asettle | We needed to have stamps on documentation etc | 10:49 |
| asettle | Also, another thing I just realised - we'll be pulling in docs from other repos, which will still be branching | 10:49 |
| dhellmann | right | 10:49 |
| asettle | Okay that's it down with nova. Nova doesn't get docs. | 10:49 |
| dhellmann | so, I think we need to stop deleting what we publish. at least so quickly. users trail *way* behind upstream. I don't think that's a problem. | 10:50 |
| dhellmann | I'll work on turning that into a more detailed position. | 10:50 |
| asettle | Agreed :) | 10:50 |
| AJaeger | we had release notes for each guide in the guide in the past - and can continue this way... | 10:50 |
| dhellmann | so if we stop deleting content, and it is just available on docs.o.o, and there are no space constraints, do we still need to come up with an archiving solution? | 10:50 |
| dhellmann | are there other use cases for archiving? | 10:50 |
| dhellmann | asettle : what error are you seeing with the nova docs? | 10:51 |
| AJaeger | dhellmann: space is not the factor - the problem is that we have EOLed guides that we do not maintain anymore. And still some people are interested in them. We often just removed them. | 10:52 |
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| asettle | Oh nothing, I was just having an argument with it while attempting to rebase. | 10:52 |
| dhellmann | AJaeger : right, I'm trying to understand the motivation for that fully so I can convince everyone it's a mistake to keep doing it. | 10:52 |
| asettle | AJaeger: I thought space was a factor? Sorry about that. | 10:52 |
| asettle | dhellmann: so, the mistake is - we get bugs when the out-of-date documentation requires an update. But dev isn't supporting $EOLRELEASE so we have no updates *for* the individual. | 10:53 |
| AJaeger | asettle: space was a concern on cloud sites- we were the largest site up there | 10:53 |
| asettle | The main concern was that we couldn't, and wouldn't, maintain out of date docs. But happy to leave it up there. | 10:53 |
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| dhellmann | asettle : can you give me an idea of how often that happens? | 10:53 |
| AJaeger | dhellmann: I never wanted archiving - I agree, it's the wrong solution to the problem. But we didn't come up with anything better | 10:53 |
| dhellmann | yeah, to be clear, I'm not suggesting we maintain them. just that we don't delete them. | 10:54 |
| AJaeger | dhellmann: problem is also CSS exploits - with our docbook toolchain, we had once to update old docs due to the integrated search ;( | 10:55 |
| asettle | dhellmann: the thread that I linked you above is a fair indication. Tom felt very strongly about it. But I'd say every couple of months we'd get a bug about 'not having icehouse docs' or 'updating mitaka' when it's already EOL'd | 10:55 |
| AJaeger | hope that won't hit us again | 10:55 |
| dhellmann | AJaeger : yeah, I do remember that one | 10:55 |
| dhellmann | asettle : ok, I'll read that thread and then we can talk again | 10:56 |
| dhellmann | maybe the solution is to extend the lifetime of the docs, but not indefinitely | 10:56 |
| AJaeger | dhellmann: space is still a concern - so, I don't think we should have for e.g. nova for each single release going back to version 1.0.0 and each branch documentation up on docs.o.o. WE need some kind of cleanup ... | 10:56 |
| dhellmann | or maybe we just say "if there is a security issue with a series of docs we can't rebuild we will delete them" | 10:56 |
| AJaeger | agreed, not indefinte. | 10:56 |
| AJaeger | And it's needs to be "scriptable" to deliete | 10:56 |
| dhellmann | good point | 10:57 |
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| dhellmann | AJaeger: if we're going to delete by age, isn't that just a script with rm and find? | 10:57 |
| asettle | How would we determine deletion? User survey? | 10:58 |
| AJaeger | dhellmann: yes. And with the root-marker fiels, we can easily do it now ;) | 10:58 |
| dhellmann | asettle : pick a number of years that seems reasonable? | 10:58 |
| AJaeger | https://docs.openstack.org/.root-marker | 10:58 |
| asettle | dhellmann: 1, perfect | 10:58 |
| AJaeger | the root-marker has no date but a revision. But timestamp on it we can check... | 10:59 |
| dhellmann | right, I was thinking timestamps | 10:59 |
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| dhellmann | at this point we can't easily resurrect old series content (though if we have someone who wants to it would be interesting to try) | 11:00 |
| AJaeger | bbl | 11:00 |
| dhellmann | so if we said from now on we won't delete content before it is 5 years old, what would that do? | 11:00 |
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| asettle | dhellmann: I believe setuid did want to try | 11:11 |
| * setuid perks | 11:11 | |
| asettle | Yo homie | 11:11 |
| asettle | Welcome to the EOL doc discussion | 11:11 |
| asettle | dhellmann: that woulddddd probably create some arguments somewhere but hey! TO the ML! | 11:12 |
| setuid | I haven't caught up on the scrollback yet | 11:12 |
| setuid | As long as you don't delete the _tags_ in github, we can still build out from those, with some patching, which we'll probably maintain in another publicly accessible repo in the short term | 11:12 |
| setuid | I'd rather not have those self-hosted elsewhere (RH owning their copy, Canonical owning their copy, etc.) | 11:13 |
| setuid | There's a small risk factor with some of the Js, but that's easily patched out/mitigated | 11:13 |
| setuid | Any of you happen to be in the NY Metro area? I'm heading into the city this morning, might be good to catch up over lunch, or... to the ML! :) | 11:14 |
| dhellmann | setuid : not in the area, I'm afraid | 11:15 |
| asettle | setuid: I am most definitely hangin' in sunny London :( sorry man | 11:15 |
| asettle | Okay I always hang in London | 11:15 |
| setuid | hahahah, np to both. I'll be in Edinburgh in about a month, trying to make my way down to London on a sleeper for a day trip | 11:15 |
| asettle | Hopefully it'll actually be a nice day :p | 11:15 |
| asettle | Plan wisely! | 11:16 |
| asettle | :p | 11:16 |
| setuid | So I've got the liberty-eol and mitaka tags building cleanly, though liberty needs both tox + mvn to build clean | 11:16 |
| asettle | brb lunch | 11:16 |
| asettle | setuid: yeah we made that nice and difficult just to annoy you :P | 11:16 |
| asettle | *thumbs up* | 11:17 |
| * asettle runs away | 11:17 | |
| setuid | Not annoying, just another few lines to script it out and some deps to install | 11:17 |
| setuid | The current challenge, is fixing all of the orphans that are deployed into the build copy by the XML refs that point to the upstream URLs which no longer exist | 11:18 |
| setuid | I haven't quite sorted how to make that a clean fix | 11:18 |
| dhellmann | asettle : cdent has a point on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/485249/, do you want to add a link in the commit message pointing to the ML discussion? | 11:19 |
| setuid | dhellmann: You going to the PTG in Sept? | 11:25 |
| dhellmann | setuid : yes, I'll be there | 11:25 |
| dhellmann | I expect this will be a big discussion for the team there | 11:25 |
| setuid | I'll find asettle and draft in behind to add my input where it makes sense | 11:26 |
| AJaeger | setuid: Edinburgh is so nice, stay a day longer instead of going to London ;) | 11:32 |
| AJaeger | setuid: liberty was transition from one to the other, so need both | 11:32 |
| setuid | AJaeger: Yep, trying to pack in as much as I can in Edinburgh, but taking a sleeper down to London to see the city would be nice too, might hire a car and drive around Scotland though. | 11:34 |
| setuid | With the patches I've built out, I may take a stab at pulling each tag and patching/building with the correct tool(s), up to current non-eol tags. | 11:34 |
| setuid | I support a big client and their ops team has nothing to refer to, so for now I've had to pull the tag and build an internal copy for them to refer to. They have a very complex set of mitm/ssl/proxy rules, which meant digging into the innards of Maven, MAVEN_OPTS, JAVA_FLAGS and all sorts of fun things to get all of that pushed down into maven's referenced plugins in the build tree. | 11:35 |
| AJaeger | setuid: what fun ;( | 11:36 |
| setuid | it's ok, I've sorted it. Turns out some plugins don't read the maven config, they read the environment flags, while others inherit what mvn parsed out of its own config. Similar with Java and the -Dhttp.foo flags | 11:37 |
| * asettle returns | 11:43 | |
| asettle | AJaeger: I gotta agree with you there, setuid you should definitely spend more time in Edinburgh | 11:44 |
| asettle | London is... ugly ;P | 11:44 |
| asettle | dhellmann: he does indeed. I'll have to go back and find our email | 11:44 |
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| d0ugal | +1 for Edinburgh | 11:47 |
| * d0ugal is biased | 11:47 | |
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| * AJaeger is biased as well | 11:56 | |
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| d0ugal | I guess we all are :) | 12:05 |
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| setuid | I'm biased, but I'm on the wrong side of the wrong pond :) | 12:13 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: link to keystone admin and config guides https://review.openstack.org/487026 | 12:13 |
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| fungi | i rather enjoyed edinburgh, though couldn't quite get accustomed to the taste of irn-bru | 12:31 |
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| asettle | I love that we've now got a group of people voting on setuid 's holiday | 12:34 |
| asettle | Nice work, team | 12:34 |
| asettle | fungi: irn-bru is rank - never liked it either | 12:34 |
| fungi | seemed like that's all anyone was drinking (mixed with vodka) | 12:35 |
| fungi | maybe the bar scene there has changed since my last visit | 12:35 |
| asettle | fungi: Ugh that sounds horrible :p | 12:35 |
| asettle | Potentially? | 12:35 |
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| fungi | it's been almost a couple decades at this point, i should revisit sometime | 12:36 |
| asettle | You should :) it's very pretty | 12:36 |
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| openstackgerrit | Alexandra Settle proposed openstack/security-doc master: [WIP] Add Key Management Chapter https://review.openstack.org/451965 | 12:41 |
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| AJaeger | fungi, they have good beer as well ;) But irn-bru is an acquired taste ;( | 13:09 |
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| fungi | yeah, i remember i was getting the local tavern ales when i could... though the "popular" beers with locals seemed to be terrible mass-market imports from the usa | 13:28 |
| fungi | obviously i wasn't going to sit in a bar in scotland and order american beer so terrible i wouldn't even drink it at home | 13:29 |
| AJaeger | yeah ;( | 13:31 |
| d0ugal | hah, I kind of like irn bru - but I have had years of practice | 13:32 |
| setuid | Well this escalated quickly :) | 13:32 |
| asettle | setuid: we're a merry band of travellers | 13:32 |
| setuid | Great, now I have that Robin Hood comedy stuck in my head | 13:33 |
| d0ugal | fungi: you need to pick your bars carefully - but there is lots of good local beers now. | 13:33 |
| asettle | setuid: Good movie | 13:33 |
| d0ugal | asettle: I'm not a traveller, I live in Scotland :) | 13:33 |
| setuid | Everyone pile into d0ugal's flat! | 13:33 |
| asettle | d0ugal: oh okay yes except for d0ugal he's the only one legitimate here | 13:33 |
| d0ugal | lol | 13:34 |
| setuid | Serious question, and "To the ML, Robin!" is a valid response.. if I tighten up these patches to build from the EOL tags, where's the logical place to hold those? | 13:35 |
| fungi | d0ugal: i will admit, i was almost 20 years younger and not nearly so good at sorting decent bars from miserable ones. i stand a much better chance of making reasonable choices when i go back | 13:35 |
| asettle | setuid: yeahhhh I think that's definitely a ML discussion. Although $10 on the table that discussion will end up being me, dhellmann AJaeger and Anne ... | 13:36 |
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| setuid | Ok, I can hold off until Sept. It'll give us a date to land some discussion on, which should sedate $CLIENT somewhat. | 13:37 |
| asettle | setuid: perfecto. We'll hold another discussion on the topic. Which reminds me, it's probably about time we started compiling that etherpad... | 13:37 |
| setuid | When's the need meeting in -meeting? | 13:38 |
| fungi | setuid: is the plan still to tar up the results so they're not web-browsable? i could see arguments for either serving them from tarballs.o.o or docs.o.o | 13:38 |
| setuid | s/need/next/ | 13:38 |
| asettle | setuid: next Thursday :) | 13:38 |
| asettle | also, setuid add your topic hurrr: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/denver-PTG | 13:38 |
| setuid | fungi: Right now, I'm building and hosting under nginx in a private space, just to make sure all of the orphans are working | 13:38 |
| fungi | i mean in the long run, but i guess that's part of what can get discussed in the ml thread | 13:39 |
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| setuid | In the long run, it would be ideal for them to be hosted on something like openstack-doc-archive.openstack.org, or docs.openstack.org/old/liberty, or similar. | 13:39 |
| setuid | There should be a clean rolloff/eol schedule for operators who need access beyond the eol dates, but we can talk through the specifics at the PTG, no need to beat that horse here | 13:40 |
| asettle | I kind of agree with the docs.o.o/$RELEASE | 13:40 |
| AJaeger | if we move them, than links will break... | 13:40 |
| asettle | *shudders* | 13:40 |
| setuid | Right, but the links are broken now anyway | 13:40 |
| AJaeger | WE might just have a BIG FAT warning on docs.o.o/EOL_release | 13:40 |
| asettle | I am very anti-link breaking rn | 13:40 |
| fungi | i thought at one point we had said that the newer work to start generating pdfs would also factor into the long-term archiving story going forward (so we could retain pdfs marked as being for eol releases, no longer supported upstream) and just not delete those | 13:40 |
| asettle | We did indeed | 13:41 |
| asettle | That would be going forward | 13:41 |
| AJaeger | setuid: I'm concerned about future updates - you're talking about old ones ;) | 13:41 |
| asettle | But we need to revive | 13:41 |
| setuid | Problem with PDFs, is they're not easily web-indexed, searchable, cut-and-paste'able (think operators here_) | 13:41 |
| setuid | AJaeger: That's why this needs to be strategic, not tactical | 13:41 |
| AJaeger | fungi: we're reopening that discussion now - since nobody signed up to archive... | 13:41 |
| setuid | archving can't be a one-and-done solution | 13:41 |
| fungi | setuid: well, one of the main reasons for not keeping old release docs online was that search engines had a tendency to return results for old documentation when users were looking for newer, and then they'd get confused... but that's probably also solvable with some sitemap and optimization voodoo | 13:42 |
| setuid | Something to correct xref in the XML when a branch goes eol, so the references dont' break, or when they get momved, they're not orphaned off | 13:42 |
| AJaeger | fungi, yes, our sitemap tool can omit releases... | 13:42 |
| setuid | fungi: You can control that with your ETag and Cache-Control directives | 13:43 |
| setuid | ^^ also sitemap.xml | 13:43 |
| setuid | There may be a way to be more explicit in your keywords directive too, which could help | 13:43 |
| fungi | well, point being even if we did keep old html online, the argument against pdfs of "not easily web-indexed" is fairly moot | 13:43 |
| fungi | since we wouldn't want the old html to be web-indexed either, right? | 13:43 |
| setuid | Right now, you're not leveraging keywords at all, so that's going to sting you later | 13:44 |
| setuid | You definitely want the old html to be indexed, but you don't want it showing up in incorrect SERPs | 13:44 |
| setuid | I wrote a free, web-based SEO tool years ago to help people get through this kind of hump | 13:44 |
| setuid | But... I like the BIG BOLD WARNING BOILERPLATE at the top of eol docs, web-indexed, so those seeking Ocata docs that land on a Liberty-eol SERP, know they're not the latest | 13:45 |
| * fungi just discovered that vera doesn't have an entry for "serp" | 13:45 | |
| setuid | SEarch Results PageS | 13:46 |
| fungi | this is what i get for involving myself in web design discussions when i hardly use a web browser ;) | 13:46 |
| setuid | It's less about the design and more about the content but point taken | 13:46 |
| setuid | Right now, d.o.o doesn't use keywords at all, so any search for 'nova' will return whatever Google deterimines is relevant. You can influence that with the correct keywords. | 13:47 |
| fungi | i'll leave the optimization planning to those of you versed in it. the last time i did any serious webmastering was in the '90s | 13:48 |
| fungi | but once you figure out what you want, i should be able to help you make it happen on the backend | 13:48 |
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| * asettle signs fungi up for all helping things | 14:18 | |
| fungi | you know where to find me! | 14:20 |
| AJaeger | asettle: fungi, is great but we might need to clone him first ;) | 14:20 |
| AJaeger | Remove the "," above, please | 14:20 |
| asettle | AJaeger: never! that comma will haunt you | 14:21 |
| asettle | fungi: every channel? :P | 14:21 |
| fungi | most of them anyway | 14:21 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstackdocstheme master: move the localtoc for the page into the sidebar https://review.openstack.org/487103 | 14:23 |
| fungi | dhellmann: thanks! | 14:23 |
| fungi | that was fast | 14:23 |
| dhellmann | fungi : it has been bothering me, but the gov site is a great example of why | 14:24 |
| fungi | well, the infra team page was a fairly extreme example | 14:24 |
| fungi | it didn't make most pages quite so problematic | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | the goals pages had similar issues | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | but yeah | 14:25 |
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| setuid | Anyone here happen to be going to the Mexico City Meetup? Was just told the specific issue around eol docs is going to be a session there for the operators; apparently several reps of large deployments are in back-rev openstack all the way to icehouse! | 14:46 |
| setuid | Is there a 'clean' target to tox? Or should I just use 'git reset --hard'? | 14:57 |
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| AJaeger | git clean -f | 14:58 |
| asettle | setuid: no to the Mexico City | 14:58 |
| AJaeger | git clean -f -x -d | 14:58 |
| AJaeger | setuid: ^ | 14:58 |
| setuid | Okee, I'll add some macros | 14:59 |
| dhellmann | setuid : it would be good to have someone collect feedback from that session and share it, can you do that? | 15:03 |
| setuid | $CLIENT is going to M.C., I asked if that feedback could come back up and be brought to the PTG, so I'll likely be part of that conduit | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | sounds good | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | there's usually an etherpad, but the notes there aren't always easy to interpret by someone who wasn't in the room | 15:06 |
| setuid | dhellmann: We'll try to put someone in every room, and make sure we're all talking/sharing, we definitely don't want any of this dropped or missed. | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | sounds like a good plan | 15:11 |
| setuid | Not every room at every conf, of course, but someone who can roll up the important bits and hot-potato that to the next person at the next conf ($CLIENT at M.C meetup, myself at PTG, etc.) | 15:12 |
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| dhellmann | it would be great to have those summaries sent to the appropriate mailing lists as a way of passing the potato | 15:14 |
| mihalis68 | hello | 15:14 |
| setuid | Yep, I'll do my best to capture the bits... "Off to the ML" is always the default op. | 15:15 |
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| setuid | asettle: Is there a deployment target that pushes the build trees into a single repo that can be hosted? Or do I have to cherry-pick them all and stitch them back together under nginx? | 15:21 |
| setuid | I'm trying to test out how to get the orphan xrefs to point to the local copies vs. the upstream/404 URIs | 15:22 |
| mihalis68 | setuid invited me to join this channel since I'm the one asking for older doc sets | 15:24 |
| asettle | setuid: uno momento :) on a meeting | 15:24 |
| dhellmann | hi, mihalis68 | 15:25 |
| mihalis68 | hi | 15:25 |
| setuid | Also, mihalis68 is goign to the Mexico City meetup, so there's some synergy with our efforts | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | setuid : the build does an rsync of the output of each build into a path derived from the project name and tag/version/series | 15:26 |
| setuid | dhellmann: Right, saw that, some are in ./target/ some are in ./build-$component/ | 15:26 |
| mihalis68 | is there any context I could provide which helps explain the request? | 15:26 |
| setuid | Just wondering if there's another chained target that extracts those to a tree | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | mihalis68 : oh, great! we're especially interested in the outcome of the discussion of moving the ops-guide to be owned by an operator group | 15:26 |
| mihalis68 | yes I agreed to participate in that discussion earlier today in the ops meet up team meeting on IRC | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | setuid : oh, I don't actually know how the older stuff works. waiting for asettle or AJaeger may be better | 15:27 |
| mihalis68 | I hear it is proposed to move to a wiki | 15:27 |
| mihalis68 | I should probably be upfront and mention my experience is wiki documentation asymptotically approaches garbage | 15:28 |
| mihalis68 | at least here at Bloomberg | 15:28 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstackdocstheme master: move the localtoc for the page into the sidebar https://review.openstack.org/487103 | 15:28 |
| dhellmann | mihalis68 : we are not prescribing the solution; the wiki was suggested by some operators | 15:29 |
| mihalis68 | ok | 15:29 |
| mihalis68 | noted | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | the key thing is that the docs team is not going to maintain the content, and has already removed it from our build | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | we can help recover it to move it somewhere else | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | that can be another git repo owned by a new team, or it can be the wiki | 15:29 |
| mihalis68 | I am involved in documentation efforts private to bloomberg. docs are hard | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | or something else, i guess, if there's a third option | 15:29 |
| setuid | mihalis68 is $CLIENT :D | 15:30 |
| dhellmann | yes, indeed, and we've lost several members of our team recently | 15:30 |
| setuid | There, the barn doors are open | 15:30 |
| mihalis68 | cover blown | 15:30 |
| dhellmann | we would love to have your help upstream :-) | 15:30 |
| mihalis68 | I seem to add value in proof-reading in more contexts than I do authoring new content. Glad to start with a bit of that | 15:31 |
| setuid | Right now, we're cobbling along with a local build of the tags, based on my patches (new patch forthcoming to fix orphans, testing that now), but that's a stopgap to a proper, strategic archival solution, whether that's moving docs to ./archive/$RELEASE/, docs.o.o/EOL_$RELEASE, a wiki or otherwise. All TBD. | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | mihalis68 : that would be good. doing that upstream on a recent version of the docs will mean working in project team repositories now that the content has moved. | 15:31 |
| setuid | fungi may end up catching some backend work to process keywords to help the search engines properly differentiate the release and eol branches, so the SERPs produce the desired pages, also TBD it sounds like | 15:32 |
| mihalis68 | if someone wants to point me at a specific review task I'll take one and see how I do. I'm not an openstack contributor yet | 15:32 |
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| dhellmann | setuid: I caught part of that conversation, but not all of it. How much does the sitemap impact page ranking? I have some ideas for generating that differently. | 15:33 |
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| asettle | This is what happens when I got on meetings | 15:33 |
| asettle | Barn doors are blown open | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | mihalis68 : I'm not sure if we have specific tasks, though asettle may be able to help there | 15:33 |
| asettle | and mihalis68 appears | 15:33 |
| asettle | dhellmann: I'll need to read scroll back when I'm done trying to get reno to dance to my merry tune | 15:34 |
| asettle | (downstream, not upstream) | 15:34 |
| dhellmann | asettle : let me know if I can help tame reno | 15:34 |
| mihalis68 | I'll just follow-along here and try to get my bearings | 15:34 |
| asettle | I don't think any of us have any bearings either | 15:35 |
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| mihalis68 | btw the operators meet up is $20 for two days lunch included. Obviously mexico city may be a challenge but the eventbrite is still open | 15:35 |
| setuid | dhellmann: It's all magical google ranking, some hand-waving algos that they don't publish, but I think you can 'weight' your sitemap | 15:36 |
| asettle | mihalis68: sadly London -> Mexican City is not the easiest stop over | 15:36 |
| mihalis68 | agreed | 15:36 |
| asettle | Mexican city? | 15:36 |
| asettle | Jeez Alex | 15:36 |
| asettle | Mexico* | 15:36 |
| setuid | I thought we were all piling into d0ugal's house for beers and scotch? | 15:36 |
| asettle | Oh we were, yes | 15:36 |
| dhellmann | mihalis68 : I'll be heading out for PTO around that time | 15:36 |
| mihalis68 | I don't know where any of you are, 'cept setuid | 15:36 |
| asettle | mihalis68: London is moi | 15:36 |
| mihalis68 | NYC here | 15:37 |
| asettle | I admittedly never remember where dhellmann is | 15:37 |
| asettle | Sorry dhellmann | 15:37 |
| asettle | AJaeger is Germany | 15:37 |
| dhellmann | setuid : my idea is to build a mini-sitemap for each individual doc build, then have one big sitemap index that links them all together. The sitemap index would only include a subset the the others, though (say, the ones for actively supported series). | 15:37 |
| dhellmann | asettle : Athens, Georgia, USA | 15:38 |
| fungi | setuid: i was talking more about backend work to handle ci publication of archived paths or tarballs of archived builds for upcoming eol activities, not anything specific around keywords (that's probably more fit for embedding in the content or theme repos) | 15:38 |
| asettle | dhellmann: oh man I never actually knew that | 15:38 |
| asettle | I had something different in my head | 15:38 |
| setuid | dhellmann: Ok, that's an option, and as long as 'something' provides an href to the older html rendered copies, Google will find them, index them. | 15:39 |
| setuid | So they won't need to be resident in the sitemap, but still indexed | 15:39 |
| setuid | fungi: *nod*, I think that's where I've got my foot stuck now, trying to figure out the best way to 'fix' the xrefs that get rendered and lead to public-facing 404 URIs, vs. the locally-staged build I've completed. | 15:40 |
| setuid | In a local build, everything should be self-referrant, imho, right now it's a hybrid | 15:40 |
| dhellmann | setuid : right. I mean, we could potentially list every single version in the sitemap index, but if we don't want the search engine to emphasize those results I'm not sure why we would | 15:41 |
| dhellmann | setuid : if you have a list of some of those links, we could look at whether it makes sense to set up redirects | 15:41 |
| setuid | dhellmann: Unfortunately, whether they show up on the top of a first page of results or not, isn't usually based on whether you call it out in sitemap or not, it's based on 'relevance' to Google's own algo. | 15:41 |
| dhellmann | ah, I thought the sitemap weight had more influence than that | 15:42 |
| setuid | So if you sitemap ocata, and get 10,000 operators all searching for liberty docs, finding them because Google indexed them after your sitemap, it may put the liberty results higher in the SERPs | 15:42 |
| dhellmann | at least within a given domain | 15:42 |
| setuid | I'll have to look at it again, I do know the spec had something about weighting | 15:42 |
| fungi | yeah, which is why in the past we resorted to taking those unsupported versions offline. it was an easy, if somewhat forcible, means of making sure they didn't turn up in search results | 15:43 |
| setuid | https://www.sitemaps.org/faq.html#faq_priority_and_page_rank | 15:44 |
| setuid | Wait, I was told the eol versions went away because the branches were deleted, is that not the case? | 15:44 |
| fungi | it was deemed much harder to find more elegant solutions to making sure people don't get outdated docs unless that's what they actually want, and won't report errata or assume the upstream community can help them with those old docs | 15:44 |
| dhellmann | asettle : it took some years of practice, but I've almost eliminated the southern accent from my typing | 15:44 |
| dhellmann | setuid : there are many reasons | 15:45 |
| tylerderosagrund | dhellmann you never loose the accent trust me | 15:45 |
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| asettle | dhellmann: very impressive | 15:45 |
| dhellmann | tylerderosagrund :-) | 15:45 |
| asettle | This is probably the most action this channel has had in ages | 15:45 |
| setuid | This may lend itself to having a separate tld for eol docs, so the sitemap domain ref is not the same (modulo the BIG RED BOILERPLATE at the top of eol docs, of course) | 15:45 |
| asettle | A wild tylerderosagrund appears | 15:45 |
| mihalis68 | I've lived in the US for 20 years. I still get identified as something something british within 20 minutes | 15:45 |
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| * tylerderosagrund waves | 15:45 | |
| asettle | o/ | 15:46 |
| tylerderosagrund | I'm here in San Antonio | 15:46 |
| asettle | mihalis68: hola yo. Although I guess I'm never going to get rid of my Australia accent | 15:46 |
| dhellmann | setuid : that's an intriguing idea | 15:46 |
| asettle | Unless drunk. Then you either get really bogan Alex, or really posh Alex | 15:46 |
| asettle | Depending on her mood | 15:46 |
| dhellmann | ooh, fun, I wonder which I'll see in Denver? | 15:46 |
| setuid | You're right, I really did kick up the channel density this am, didn't I :) | 15:47 |
| asettle | dhellmann: place your bets now :p | 15:47 |
| * setuid feigns guity | 15:47 | |
| asettle | setuid: you're good :P | 15:47 |
| fungi | setuid: the branches went away to prevent people from trying to update them and so we wouldn't have to maintain working build environments for them indefinitely. the rendered copies were removed because we had no easy means of rebuilding them and were hesitant to publish content we couldn't replace from source should the need arise | 15:47 |
| setuid | This is all good discussion, I'll try to summarize back to the ML this afternoon, see what others have to say about these various ideas | 15:47 |
| asettle | That would be very helpful, setuid :) | 15:47 |
| asettle | Also, I'll answer any questions once I'm off this meeting | 15:48 |
| tylerderosagrund | sounds like an intense meeting | 15:48 |
| asettle | tylerderosagrund: trying ot get shit built that doesn't want to fucking build | 15:48 |
| asettle | to* | 15:48 |
| asettle | A Downstream Story: By Alexandra Settle | 15:49 |
| setuid | dhellmann: This looks interesting, search for 'priority' in the table about 1/4 way down the page: https://www.sitemaps.org/protocol.html | 15:49 |
| tylerderosagrund | oh yea then I'll leave you too it then asettle :-D | 15:49 |
| dhellmann | setuid : ++ | 15:49 |
| mihalis68 | "trying ot get shit built that doesn't want to fucking build" a concise definition of this job, mostly | 15:49 |
| asettle | mihalis68: amen | 15:49 |
| dhellmann | setuid : we know the release names in order, so we could build a sitemap index that had higher priority for newer items | 15:50 |
| dhellmann | oh, although that's for a location in a sitemap, not for an index | 15:50 |
| dhellmann | https://www.sitemaps.org/protocol.html#index | 15:50 |
| mihalis68 | so nobody asked me anything | 15:51 |
| mihalis68 | such disappoint | 15:51 |
| setuid | It would be nice if the protocol allowed us to express negative weighting, but I guess anything below 0.5 does that by default | 15:51 |
| asettle | mihalis68: what should we be asking you? | 15:51 |
| mihalis68 | "hey mihalis68 why not upgrade, y u not CI CD" | 15:52 |
| mihalis68 | I already had that elsewhere, I don't mind | 15:52 |
| dhellmann | setuid : one issue with moving archives to a different domains is that there will be a lot of full URLs embedded in the docs | 15:52 |
| setuid | dhellmann: Some of those can be RST'd out, I think... some may not though. | 15:52 |
| setuid | That's now a second-order problem, you can't commit changes to tags and the branches are gone, chicken and egg problem | 15:52 |
| mihalis68 | the tl;dr is we got to Liberty and then got seriously busy and also had a lot of staff turnover, so today I still really need my nova-network docs to run our 9 production openstack clusters | 15:53 |
| mihalis68 | the end | 15:53 |
| dhellmann | any time someone embeds a full link instead of using a :doc: or :ref: directive :-/ | 15:53 |
| dhellmann | mihalis68 : I feel for you, really. | 15:53 |
| dhellmann | setuid : sure, let's try to figure out how to solve the problem for currently active releases and the future, then we can decide what to do with anything older | 15:54 |
| setuid | mihalis68 represents the operators/cloud team, I'm just a hired mercenary to fix all the pieces that fall apart | 15:55 |
| setuid | back in a lunch | 15:55 |
| mihalis68 | setuid has made strong contribs to our stack | 15:55 |
| mihalis68 | mostly rooting out my "programming" e.g. bash | 15:55 |
| dhellmann | setuid, asettle : at what cycle did we switch from docbook to rst? | 15:57 |
| asettle | dhellmann: Liberty, fairly sure. Liberty -> Mitaka | 15:57 |
| asettle | After Paris | 15:57 |
| dhellmann | k | 15:58 |
| asettle | I dunno it was a horrible time in my life I never want to see an RST converted table again | 15:58 |
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| asettle | OKAY I AM OFF THE MEETING NOBODY PANIC | 16:02 |
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| asettle | dhellmann: you had many questions | 16:03 |
| * tylerderosagrund doesnt panic | 16:03 | |
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| asettle | tylerderosagrund: ah jeez man | 16:08 |
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| tylerderosagrund | asettle I'm cool as ice | 16:09 |
| tylerderosagrund | but I may have paniced just a little | 16:09 |
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| asettle | Does that mean you melted? | 16:14 |
| asettle | heh | 16:14 |
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| tylerderosagrund | I guess I have | 16:16 |
| tylerderosagrund | Time to mop up my own mess | 16:16 |
| * tylerderosagrund goes back to work | 16:16 | |
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| asettle | tylerderosagrund: wait... you a Racker? | 16:19 |
| asettle | I just cottoned on that you said SA | 16:19 |
| tylerderosagrund | I am and just came back to the Rack | 16:20 |
| tylerderosagrund | Why am I in trouble now? | 16:20 |
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| asettle | tylerderosagrund: nah bro, just checking who else is also a Racker or not :p | 16:23 |
| tylerderosagrund | Ooooh nice :D Are you here in San Antonio too? | 16:23 |
| asettle | Nope, I hide out in the London office like a good Australian :p | 16:24 |
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| tylerderosagrund | Haha sounds like Cam B :-) | 16:24 |
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| setuid | dhellmann: Looks like liberty is both mvn+tox, mitaka is tox-only. mvn builds 522 docs, tox adds an additional 433 to the liberty-eol tree, but there are some orphans (yes, I owe you a list)( | 16:48 |
| openstackgerrit | Matt Riedemann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals stable/ocata: Fix cells doc link in cells v1 config reference https://review.openstack.org/487141 | 16:48 |
| dhellmann | setuid : which specific guides are you looking for again? | 16:49 |
| setuid | dhellmann: mihalis68 needs the networking guide at the moment, that appears after the tox pass, so I think we're good there. It wasn't part of the mvn rendering. | 16:51 |
| dhellmann | setuid : which series | 16:51 |
| setuid | He's got some challenges with his internal Xenial instance, unrelated to doc structure, so I'm building on my laptop | 16:51 |
| setuid | liberty-eol at the moment | 16:51 |
| setuid | That's where we're focused, mitaka after that, priority is liberty | 16:51 |
| dhellmann | https://docs.openstack.org/liberty/networking-guide/ | 16:51 |
| dhellmann | that exists | 16:51 |
| dhellmann | it may not be linked from anywhere | 16:51 |
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| dhellmann | same for https://docs.openstack.org/mitaka/networking-guide/ | 16:52 |
| setuid | *nod* | 16:52 |
| dhellmann | I'm finding all sorts of stuff on this web server that I didn't know existed | 16:52 |
| setuid | I don't think they're linked on the front/landing page, so not easy to find unless you know the URI | 16:53 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I'm going to see if I can address that after I find a sandwich | 16:53 |
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| setuid | This is interesting, what's the difference between: | 16:55 |
| setuid | ./publish-docs/liberty/networking-guide/index.html | 16:55 |
| setuid | ./doc/networking-guide/build/html/index.html | 16:55 |
| setuid | top one is from tox, bottom from mvn | 16:56 |
| setuid | I thought the build tools were additive, looks like they duplicate | 16:56 |
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| setuid | Following this structure: https://docs.openstack.org/contributor-guide/docs-builds.html#building-docs-from-end-of-life-releases | 16:56 |
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| AJaeger | dhellmann: we have priority already in our sitemap - set depending on location. See openstack-doc-tools repo | 17:32 |
| * AJaeger reads backscroll | 17:32 | |
| AJaeger | setuid: we rsync as tell of our build scripts to publish-docs, so there is no difference between those | 17:35 |
| setuid | AJaeger: That hasn't been my experience, but that may be a change post-mitaka | 17:36 |
| setuid | I'm rerunning builds now to check (scripted my own patching + CI/CD for these builds for the moment) | 17:36 |
| AJaeger | setuid: it depends on what job you call. If you call "mvn" directly, it does not copy. If you use tox for building, it copies for jobs like "checkbuild" | 17:40 |
| setuid | AJaeger: My read of the build process, the liberty tag requires building with mvn+tox to get a full copy of the docs, but mitaka-eol and later are all tox only | 17:40 |
| setuid | The docs I build with mvn (522 rendered files) all end up in ./doc/<component>/target/docbkx/* | 17:41 |
| AJaeger | setuid: yes, they end there - if you build with mvn directly. If you use the scripts as they have been invoked from our CI system, they copy everything to publishdocs and that's the big collecting place we use for pushing to the web server | 17:44 |
| setuid | The docs I build with tox (433 rendered files) all end up in a different top-level dir | 17:44 |
| setuid | ah, that's what I was looking for earlier, if there was a tox target to aggregate all the built docs into one tree for publishing | 17:44 |
| AJaeger | tox -e checkbuild | 17:45 |
| setuid | Yep, adding all the checks to my CI now | 17:45 |
| setuid | Going to loop through each of the tags and build, hopefully tox won't wipe out ./publish-docs/$rel/ at eaach pass | 17:45 |
| openstackgerrit | Andreas Jaeger proposed openstack/openstack-doc-tools master: sitemap: Add ocata https://review.openstack.org/487151 | 17:46 |
| AJaeger | no, we never cleanup up publishdocs | 17:46 |
| AJaeger | bbl | 17:46 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals stable/ocata: Fix cells doc link in cells v1 config reference https://review.openstack.org/487141 | 17:54 |
| dhellmann | setuid, mihalis68 : do you need a guide that is not listed at http://paste.openstack.org/show/616467/ ? | 17:55 |
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| setuid | Nope, that looks good for me/us.. | 17:59 |
| setuid | Can't speak for those at the Mexico City operator's meetup though, they may go back to icehouse | 17:59 |
| setuid | s/to/prior to/ | 18:00 |
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| mihalis68 | there is at least one on icehouse | 18:01 |
| mihalis68 | emagana (@meganap on twitter) | 18:01 |
| mihalis68 | also some of the NTT team appear to have some stake in older docs | 18:01 |
| setuid | Let's take this up to the ML also, I'll start off a topic later this afternoon, once I've pulled all the bits together, it's been a busy day here and $here. | 18:02 |
| openstackgerrit | Andreas Jaeger proposed openstack/openstack-doc-tools master: sitemap: Add ocata https://review.openstack.org/487151 | 18:03 |
| dhellmann | well, there's a config-reference for icehouse in there. did we have an admin guide then? | 18:03 |
| dhellmann | I'm trying to work out what might be missing. | 18:03 |
| dhellmann | I see config, install, and training guides on the old server | 18:04 |
| setuid | iirc, the networking-guide was missing | 18:04 |
| setuid | I'll know in a sec, I botched my mitaka-eol patch | 18:04 |
| AJaeger | dhellmann: admin guide is unversioned, so we never had one published from any stable/* branch | 18:05 |
| dhellmann | AJaeger : ok, that makes sense | 18:05 |
| AJaeger | setuid: I think networking-guide at liberty was in a very bad shape, so might not have been published. | 18:06 |
| AJaeger | checking tools/build-all-rst.sh in liberty-eol, it's not published | 18:06 |
| setuid | I'll see if I can get mihalis68 to proof that, maybe fix up the bits. We may end up with a number of updates that need to get captured somewhere (maybe this is where the 'wiki' discussion began?) | 18:06 |
| setuid | I'll dot out some of these on the etherpad (https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/denver-PTG) | 18:07 |
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| setuid | dhellmann: If I fork openstack-manuals and patch the eol tags so they build, what's the process to PR those back? (is that another TBD/open loop?) | 18:21 |
| dhellmann | there is no process for contributing to eol branches, that's sort of the point of deleting the branches | 18:21 |
| dhellmann | so yeah, we'd need a longer conversation | 18:21 |
| dhellmann | but please do not take that as a pre-commitment that patches would be accepted -- we should have that conversation before you invest too much time in the content | 18:22 |
| setuid | So here's a thought we had over lunch: What if the eol branches were broken off and put into their own repo, specifically for eol docs _only_, and patches to those were accepted? | 18:22 |
| setuid | Oh absolutely, at this point I'm just trying to satisfy the open request to have a working set of eol manuals | 18:22 |
| dhellmann | that would make publishing them more complicated than just resurrecting the branches in their current location | 18:22 |
| AJaeger | setuid: if somebody commits to maintain a branch, we can keep it longer open. | 18:22 |
| setuid | While we're kicking around how to manage this strategically | 18:22 |
| AJaeger | setuid: (for future branches) | 18:22 |
| dhellmann | ok, sure, I just wanted avoid setting your expectations too high | 18:22 |
| AJaeger | setuid: but so far the existing team with its resources had no bandwidth... | 18:22 |
| setuid | AJaeger: I'd rather pin that down before more branches go eol, so we don't multiply the effort | 18:23 |
| setuid | Totally understand, we're all under thin resources | 18:23 |
| AJaeger | setuid: just for the record, this is the first time it comes up -and we EOL branches for ages... | 18:23 |
| setuid | mihalis68's team was recently thinned, unexpectedly as well as our own recent haircuts | 18:23 |
| setuid | On the one hand, I'm surprised this is the first time, but on the other, solving it closes a number of issues out in the community | 18:24 |
| mihalis68 | it's true that I didn't complain about it before, but I definitely struggled to find the documents of the openstack I am deploying for years now | 18:24 |
| setuid | There's a gap between upstream project supported status and what we (Canonical) layer in on top of that with our LTS support of openstack on Ubuntu. | 18:25 |
| setuid | mihalis68 currently fell in that gap | 18:25 |
| mihalis68 | there is also the issue that sometimes when you select a supported release on the launch page, after a few link-follows you find yourself on latest, but perhaps don't even notice | 18:25 |
| setuid | I think the recent watermarking of release docs may make that a bit more obvious, but there could still be edge conditions | 18:26 |
| mihalis68 | I often find cool new features in what I think is the right documentation level and then find I was mistaken | 18:26 |
| mihalis68 | that sounds good. Not aware of it but if it makes a page self-represent its openstack version, that is awesome | 18:26 |
| setuid | mihalis68: Compare these: | 18:27 |
| setuid | https://docs.openstack.org/mitaka/networking-guide/intro-basic-networking.html | 18:27 |
| setuid | https://docs.openstack.org/liberty/networking-guide/intro-basic-networking.html | 18:27 |
| setuid | You should see two different watermarks, it probably could be more obvious, but that's just some styling | 18:28 |
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| mihalis68 | Well would you look at that! | 18:28 |
| mihalis68 | <oblivious> | 18:28 |
| mihalis68 | thanks guys that's a big help right there | 18:28 |
| setuid | I'd love to see one of the watermarks right at the top of the page, so it's obvious before you scroll down, but that may be an easy fix | 18:29 |
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| setuid | kilo patched, icehouse build working now... easier than I thought, once I worked out what needed tweaking | 18:40 |
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| setuid | Just found something interesting | 18:52 |
| setuid | If you check out juno-eol, all of the refs were correctly updated before that was tagged, later tags didn't have that step done, so I have to patch it back in | 18:53 |
| setuid | But icehouse-eol _does_ need that patching | 18:54 |
| AJaeger | setuid: yes, we pushed for juno-eol - before closing it - a patch for each guide to mark it eol | 18:54 |
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| AJaeger | And to build that patch, I needed to change content. | 18:55 |
| AJaeger | see change I1115dc8009d31d56e62290ca4019c910993b0433 | 18:55 |
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| setuid | *nod*, just noticing the discrepancy. If the same care was done to icehouse -> kilo -> liberty -> mitaka, these patches wouldn't be needed, leaving only the issue of eol doc residence the outstanding ask. | 18:56 |
| AJaeger | setuid: we marked those eol earlier and thus never run into the "problem" | 18:56 |
| AJaeger | setuid: it is a timing question. We retired with juno *later* then other repos and therefore hit that problem | 18:57 |
| AJaeger | Later we retired at the same time and thus did not run into the problem. Our liberty-eol tag was created at same time as nova-eol | 18:57 |
| setuid | Yep, makes sense. Maybe some rigor right before tagging as -eol, to add that final pass to fix the refs so they're not broken? | 18:57 |
| AJaeger | setuid: not possible if we retire at the same time ;) | 18:58 |
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| AJaeger | it only works if we retire later... | 18:58 |
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| setuid | What if there's a staged PR, never merged in, which contains that last 'fix', so when you do retire, whenever that is, you merge that 'eol PR' and it fixed itself! :) | 18:59 |
| AJaeger | which makes it more difficult, retiring is a global step for all repos... | 18:59 |
| AJaeger | setuid: doesn't work in practice | 18:59 |
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| AJaeger | setuid: yeah, we could make this work - but it was never needed in the past, so never on our check list | 19:00 |
| * dhellman_ thinks his hosting provider is having some trouble, as his bouncer keeps disconnecting him | 19:00 | |
| setuid | Right now, this is my hacky build script: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/f994b300/ | 19:01 |
| setuid | Trying to be a bit pedantic | 19:01 |
| AJaeger | setuid: tox -e checkbuild would be better... | 19:05 |
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| setuid | yep, rebuilding now | 19:06 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: add landing pages for historical versions https://review.openstack.org/487197 | 20:33 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: update release dates and status on all landing pages https://review.openstack.org/487198 | 20:33 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: move series dates into generator https://review.openstack.org/487199 | 20:33 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: use SERIES_INFO to pick up the message to describe the series status https://review.openstack.org/487200 | 20:33 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: move repetitive content from the index pages to the indexbase template https://review.openstack.org/487201 | 20:33 |
| *** phealy has joined #openstack-doc | 20:37 | |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: move series dates into generator https://review.openstack.org/487199 | 20:37 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: move repetitive content from the index pages to the indexbase template https://review.openstack.org/487201 | 20:37 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: use SERIES_INFO to pick up the message to describe the series status https://review.openstack.org/487200 | 20:37 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/docs-specs master: switch to openstackdocstheme https://review.openstack.org/487204 | 20:41 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: update release dates and status on all landing pages https://review.openstack.org/487198 | 20:49 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: move series dates into generator https://review.openstack.org/487199 | 20:49 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: add landing pages for historical versions https://review.openstack.org/487197 | 20:49 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: move repetitive content from the index pages to the indexbase template https://review.openstack.org/487201 | 20:49 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: use SERIES_INFO to pick up the message to describe the series status https://review.openstack.org/487200 | 20:49 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: the mistral team deleted their admin guide landing page https://review.openstack.org/487209 | 20:49 |
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| arbaindur | Is there any documentation on the openstack designate CLIs? | 21:12 |
| arbaindur | It is missing from: https://docs.openstack.org/python-openstackclient/latest/cli/command-list.html | 21:12 |
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| annegentle | arbaindur can offer https://github.com/openstack/python-designateclient/blob/master/doc/source/cli/index.rst for now | 21:22 |
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| arbaindur | Aren't those individual clients deprecated? and designate CLI only supports v1 API apparently. we have v1 api turned off in designate, only v2 | 21:24 |
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