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| xarses_ | mordred: wow, that was quick. I'll give it a whirl. tyvm | 00:01 |
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| Anticimex | mordred: re trolling (pg depr comments earlier) - it wasn't really trolling, as much as a reading of apparent sentiment from the outside (biases etc apply) | 01:35 |
| Anticimex | mordred: i assume you agree that catching a race error in neutron, such as https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1691176 , is valuable? | 01:36 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1691176 in neutron "test_verify_duplicate_network_nics[id-1678d144-ed74-43f8-8e57-ab10dbf9b3c2] race fails during port deletion on postgresql job" [High,Fix released] - Assigned to Kevin Benton (kevinbenton) | 01:36 |
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| Anticimex | i'm not versed enough in the CI/gate to know the required steps in order to fly around and pick up on "postgres" errors (have yet to ever see one that is caused by something which is pg's fault), but it could be an interesting hobby, that perhaps some operators could care about | 01:38 |
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| LuigiOpenstack | Hi team, | 05:48 |
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| LuigiOpenstack | I need some help with my code | 05:48 |
| LuigiOpenstack | Where can I put the code? | 05:48 |
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| LuigiOpenstack | Can anyone help me with the code at http://paste.openstack.org/show/609741/ | 07:56 |
| LuigiOpenstack | I am not able to list images | 07:56 |
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| johnthetubaguy | lbragstad: I will try, not 100% sure at this point | 08:12 |
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| ttx | johnthetubaguy: do you remember who signed up (if anyone) to distill the vision feedback into actionable points ? | 09:01 |
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| dims | Hi feisky | 09:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: I don't think anyone did, although I was keen to help with that | 09:46 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: yesterday we had cdent and dtroyer volunteering to help, too | 09:47 |
| ttx | maybe you 3 can reach out to gothicmindfood and get it started | 09:47 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: see the email I just sent to openstack-tc about the new status tracker @ https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 09:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: cool, sounds like a plan, I am not employed right now though, so online off and on right now, I will try get to that | 09:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: nice :) | 09:48 |
| * dims waves to ttx and johnthetubaguy | 09:48 | |
| * johnthetubaguy waves back | 09:49 | |
| dims | feisky : i don't see your groups setup in gerrit https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/ | 09:49 |
| dims | feisky : i was expecting a stackube-core and stackube-release there | 09:49 |
| feisky | I'm not sure how to do this. Could you offer a help? | 09:49 |
| ttx | dims: if you want to help Stackube through the submission process, I can add you as sponsor/driver on that proposal in the tracker :) | 09:49 |
| dims | ttx : sure | 09:50 |
| * ttx adds | 09:50 | |
| dims | feisky : we'll need to request help from the infra folks...yet another channel feisky (#openstack-infra) | 09:50 |
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| feisky | dims: joined the channel. | 09:51 |
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| dims | thanks feisky | 09:53 |
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| jamespage | icey: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bug/1691428 fairly simple resolution to that one | 10:00 |
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| icey | jamespage: had my eye on those, waiting on jenkins :) | 10:00 |
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| jamespage | icey: ta | 10:01 |
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| dims | feisky : can you join #openstack-kuryr, #openstack-containers, #openstack-helm, #openstack-kolla, #openstack-golang and lurk there, i will make introductions as and when folks show up | 10:11 |
| feisky | ok | 10:12 |
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| dims | oh, and #openstack-zun as well feisky | 10:17 |
| ttx | wow, lotsa channels I'm not on | 10:19 |
| dims | ttx :) | 10:26 |
| flaper87 | ttx: rofl | 10:29 |
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| efried | lbragstad Sphinx 1.6.1 has been blocked in g-r for many projects, but looks like keystone-specs isn't in the bot's list. | 12:48 |
| efried | Appropriate to propose manually? | 12:48 |
| efried | (ref: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/460344/) | 12:48 |
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| efried | lbragstad https://review.openstack.org/#/c/465543/ | 12:53 |
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| efried | lbragstad Rebased https://review.openstack.org/#/c/460344/ on it. | 12:54 |
| efried | Feel free to unwind & slap wrist if that ain't the right thing ;-) | 12:54 |
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| mordred | Anticimex: catching a race error in neutron is valuable - but that can be done with mysql as well, should anyone care to. setting SQL_MODE=TRADITIONAL will throw the same error. if we want the db layer to throw more errors and help catch more bugs lke that, we shoud set that flag in our mysql. highlighting that you think people are biased against pg doesn't really help anything. also, the pg | 12:59 |
| mordred | deprecation discussion is not based on anti-pg sentiment. I've said multiple times I'd be just as happy scrapping mysql and picking pg - the point is picking ONE thing so we can do a good job with it | 12:59 |
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| cdent | I'm still not fully convinced that "picking ONE thing" is a good thing | 13:01 |
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| fungi | we're not really good at distinguishing between "picking two things" and "picking all things" though | 13:03 |
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| openstackgerrit | dane-fichter proposed openstack/governance master: Add Queens goal split out tempest plugins https://review.openstack.org/369749 | 13:10 |
| sdague | so, if someone that cared a lot about pg did the following: 1) made consistent utf8 4 byte naming across core infrastructure 2) fixed server list by ip to use the db (not filter in python which falls down if more than 1000 servers got to that filter) 3) made it so new developers didn't need pg driver to run unit tests on all the projects | 13:10 |
| sdague | I would have less objections | 13:11 |
| sdague | if we deprecate pg, all of those become easier problems to solve | 13:11 |
| sdague | making them accessable to more people | 13:11 |
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| sdague | the bar to address a whole set of problems right now is so high because you have a leaky abstraction in sqla, so the abstraction only helps the easy stuff, not the hard stuff, and the hard stuff gets harder | 13:13 |
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| cdent | sdague: the fact that sqla can be leaky seems like a big reason why we _should_ test with both mysql and pg, not a reason why we shouldn't | 13:20 |
| cdent | I'm trying hard not to become too overly engaged with this issue, because there are only so many issues a single brain can think usefully about, but it is hard because I keep getting drawn for some reason. | 13:21 |
| sdague | cdent: it's odd to me that you are arguing the perspective you are, because most of the time you are on the "move fast and break things so it's better for users in the future" | 13:22 |
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| sdague | this isn't just a test issue | 13:22 |
| cdent | I know, I'm surprised too | 13:23 |
| sdague | this is a whole lot of things that have now become too hard to do because of supporting multiple backends | 13:23 |
| cdent | but the thing "associated tooling" issue that came up in boston was extremely compelling (for me) | 13:23 |
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| cdent | it's seems inconsistent to be concerned about api-scripts, but not about database-scripts | 13:24 |
| sdague | our database is not a public api | 13:24 |
| cdent | but also, I just find it really weird to _not_ support multiple databases. that's just how things are done | 13:24 |
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| sdague | cdent: that's how things are done in trivial applications that don't need advance features | 13:24 |
| cdent | openstack's use of the database is trivial! | 13:25 |
| sdague | except when it isn't | 13:25 |
| * cdent shrugs | 13:25 | |
| mordred | well - at the very least, we shoujld probably set sql_mode=traditional in our sqla engine creation and get _that_ item taken care of | 13:26 |
| cdent | mordred++ | 13:26 |
| sdague | mordred: I was pretty sure that's already a thing | 13:26 |
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| sdague | cdent: so in the open source software I use, multiple database support isn't granted | 13:27 |
| mordred | sdague: if https://review.openstack.org/#/c/427667/ happened, then it's not | 13:27 |
| sdague | wordpress / drupal those both have a supported back end (mysql) and some folks of on the side that do other backends. But definitely not upstream supported. | 13:27 |
| mordred | cdent: multi-database support is also not a thing for any of the large-scale systems out there - facebook runs on one database, not on an optional set | 13:28 |
| sdague | mordred: I thought that group_by was special | 13:28 |
| fungi | https://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Alternative_Databases is a nice reference example | 13:28 |
| sdague | zzzeek said something to that affect in his email response | 13:28 |
| cdent | you guys are talking about applications, which is fine, but out of another mouth people will talk about openstack as composable toolkits | 13:29 |
| mordred | sdague: group_by behavior gets covered by TRADITONAL as part of ONLY_FULL_GROUP_BY | 13:29 |
| sdague | mordred: ok | 13:29 |
| mordred | https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.7/en/sql-mode.html#sqlmode_only_full_group_by | 13:29 |
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| cdent | in _frameworks_ using multiple dbs is common and accepted, and a reason why sqla gained a lot of traction | 13:29 |
| sdague | cdent: it's still composable, at the service level. | 13:29 |
| fungi | cdent: how about openstack as composable (server-side) applications? ;) | 13:29 |
| sdague | cdent: for applications that don't need to handle zero downtime mix and match code levels with database schema | 13:30 |
| * fungi isn't sure what about an api service daemon makes it not an application too | 13:30 | |
| cdent | I don't know, I really don't know that I want to care about this, but I'm not sure how easily we can dismiss people with existing pg-based deployments and tooling. | 13:30 |
| mordred | cdent: yes. but I think with the push to interoperable end-user apis, I value openstack-as-thing more than I value openstack-as-cloud-construction-toolkit. but that may just be me | 13:30 |
| mordred | cdent: I agree | 13:30 |
| sdague | cdent: which is why, step 1 - warn new people | 13:30 |
| mordred | yup | 13:30 |
| cdent | yes, I'm totally pro warning people | 13:31 |
| sdague | not doing so is basically lying to our users | 13:31 |
| mordred | and then actually talk in real terms about cost on both sides | 13:31 |
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| mordred | becaues there are real costs to both sides of the coin | 13:31 |
| cdent | but it needs to be a warning couched in "we can fix this" rather than "this is the inevitable trend" | 13:31 |
| sdague | cdent: ok, but then I don't understand why you -1ed the proposal, because the concrete actions were "warn people", and see what a migration looks like | 13:31 |
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| cdent | because the beginning of it is all "we really only do mysql and doing mysql is really the only way people should be doing things and gosh isn't doing things with mysql great" rather than a more truthful "we have appeared to supports lots of dbs for a long time" and a more respectful "using different dbs is a common choice that different environments might make" | 13:33 |
| cdent | I think the proposal can and should be a) much shorter, b) more forward looking about ways "out" | 13:34 |
| cdent | there's no need to shame people for having got it "wrong" because they didn't | 13:34 |
| mordred | sdague: hrm. I verify that oslo.db is defaulting to TRADITIONAL. now I'm curious as to what went further wrong there | 13:34 |
| sdague | cdent: if you want to write an alternative, feel free. | 13:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | cdent: I saw this more as shaming ourselves for not telling people its been ages since we did the work to support anything else | 13:35 |
| cdent | sdague: I was going to ask you about that, but haven't rolled around to that part of my day yet. It crossed my mind that that would probably be a lot easier. At the same time, having this kind of discussion is, I think, pretty important because it helps reveal biases and attitudes more completely than simply reviewing proposals. I can still write an alternate if that seems like a good idea, but it may be more than 2 | 13:36 |
| sdague | because I feel like my process of trying to reduce the complexity of a bunch of problems we want solved, that are too complicated for anyone to take on, is getting responded with "but what we really want is a detailed plan for engineering proposal that's the minimum orgs need to fund to keep this complexity" | 13:36 |
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| cdent | I didn't say that myself. I just said we should punt this to the board as an example of a shortfall. Not with a detailed engineering plan. We don't need that. | 13:37 |
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| openstackgerrit | dane-fichter proposed openstack/governance master: Add Queens goal split out tempest plugins https://review.openstack.org/369749 | 13:38 |
| cdent | I did, however, say that the statement that "this is complex" doesn't seem to be as well understood as it should be. | 13:38 |
| sdague | cdent: I disagree, that's actually the sticking point. That's been the constant come back "tell us what the problems are in detial" | 13:38 |
| cdent | from who | 13:38 |
| sdague | in the review, in the room | 13:38 |
| sdague | right now | 13:38 |
| mordred | cdent: everyone who is opposed to the idea of deprecation | 13:38 |
| sdague | mordred: ++ | 13:38 |
| cdent | that's not at all what I heard | 13:38 |
| sdague | "define complex" | 13:38 |
| cdent | what I heard in the room is people saying "we've got postgres already and switching will be hard" | 13:39 |
| sdague | which was step 2, that suse is exploring | 13:39 |
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| sdague | that was one bit, the other was "we would not have done what we'd done over the last 12 months if we knew this wasn't supported" | 13:40 |
| cdent | I guess to some extent on the review is "this is being supported by assertions of complexity, show me the evidence" but that seems rather fair when we have existing passing tests using pg | 13:40 |
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| sdague | cdent: passing tests has nothing to do with reducing the complexity of a bunch of unsolved problems | 13:41 |
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| mordred | yah. that | 13:41 |
| sdague | I litterally am sick to death of "but it's just a gate job" | 13:41 |
| mordred | the root problem from my POV is that there are no PG humans actively involved upstream | 13:41 |
| fungi | backing up a bit, we're not currently expending effort to "support" postgres so it's already at risk of breaking if people use it. regardless of whether we might entertain offers to help us "support" more than mysql in the future, can we just say that (and correct our documentation where it claims we're supporting something we haven't been)? | 13:41 |
| cdent | I don't dispute that. And as I keep saying: I'm happy to see the docs change | 13:41 |
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| sdague | having gone through that gate job with a fine toothed comb (and built it in the first plac) the amount of differential testing that it exposes is really really smal | 13:42 |
| cdent | I _want_ to see the docs change | 13:42 |
| fungi | we're not saying "we're going to take away postgres support" we're saying "we haven't been supporting postgres, our documentation was wrong, and we're really sorry you wound up coosing to use it based on incorrect information" | 13:42 |
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| cdent | I'll write up an alternative, and try to make it more straightforward. | 13:42 |
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| mordred | fungi, cdent: well, we should be clear that we're _thinking_ about taking away postgres support - we haven't decided to do that, and may not, but it's important that people understand it's a real consideration | 13:43 |
| sdague | right | 13:43 |
| sdague | because there is this assumed "forever" bit today | 13:44 |
| fungi | i think it totally depends on your definition of te word "support" | 13:44 |
| mordred | not to me it doesn't ... I believe one of the possible outcomes is "make openstack take an active role in the management of your database resources" | 13:45 |
| sdague | mordred: ++ | 13:45 |
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| fungi | it doesn't seem to me like we're supporting postgres even now, but perhaps the minimal level of testing we have for it counts as support to some people | 13:46 |
| mordred | well. that and the fact that the docs say we support postgres explicitly | 13:46 |
| mordred | I think that may be the largest smoking gun on people getting the idea we support it ;) | 13:47 |
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| sdague | mordred: right | 13:47 |
| sdague | chris read the manual section alloud for ocata in the room where it says that | 13:47 |
| mordred | but there's basic "SQL statements execute" - which is regression prevention - then there's "orchestrating maint tasks in an online fashion" - which would imply active design | 13:48 |
| fungi | i don't think we've had a policy in the past about what the documentation reviewers are allowed to approve as a statement of support for some technology without conferring with the teams who would actually be the ones making support decisions | 13:48 |
| sdague | fungi: sure, there are lots of ways we got into this | 13:48 |
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| mordred | yup. we can pass the blame around broadly | 13:48 |
| fungi | did nova's core reviewers claim support for postgres, or did someone work out how to set up postgres, propose an addition to the install guide and documentation reviewers approved it? | 13:48 |
| mordred | I'm sure it's my fault in some number of ways | 13:49 |
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| sdague | fungi: I got it working in the gate in devstack, and got it voting, 4 years ago | 13:49 |
| sdague | and from that, it filtered through to "supported" | 13:49 |
| sdague | organically | 13:49 |
| mordred | in fact, I think I was one of the ones who argued in favor of sqla back when the argument was sqla vs. redis | 13:49 |
| mordred | so ... sorry | 13:49 |
| fungi | well, thank you for not choosing redis ;) | 13:50 |
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| sdague | fungi: but regardless of how we got here, we also need to understand what a wind down looks like | 13:50 |
| mordred | ++ | 13:50 |
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| sdague | because since the first time deprecating pg came up 2 years ago, we're probably about 4 - 6 person months of effort in discussions and arguments | 13:51 |
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| sdague | if the cost of removing something that is used at a low rate is that high | 13:51 |
| sdague | the barriers to bringing new things in are going to be even higher, because no one wants to have to do the remove fight | 13:51 |
| fungi | completely agree there | 13:51 |
| sdague | which is a giant chilling effect on trying experiments | 13:51 |
| mordred | ++ | 13:52 |
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| mordred | I also think we need, not an "engineering plan" - but we need to understand what the pg supporters could do to make us feel honestly warm and fuzzy about keeping the complexity | 13:53 |
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| mordred | sdague: made a list above - I donm't think it's a complete list from my end, because it doesn't cover forward-looking design concerns | 13:53 |
| persia | Is there any means to adjust the definitions of the identities concerned, so that the pg supporters are the pg maintainers, without needing to be part of the "us" used above? | 13:53 |
| sdague | persia: it's not about a driver in isolation | 13:53 |
| fungi | so anyway, my point about the documentation is that we probably need more people reviewing docs specifically with the goal of identifying things we wouldn't want to commit to supporting long-term so they can be wrapped in eye-catching "experimental" admonitions | 13:54 |
| ttx | ideally you want those resources to be embedded into existing support teams | 13:54 |
| sdague | persia: if it was completely hidden behind a full driver abstraction, it would be different | 13:54 |
| ttx | not just be "the pgsql person" | 13:54 |
| sdague | right, people need to be all through the code | 13:54 |
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| persia | sdague: No, it's about a huge mass of work: it's just that in most reprititions of the conversation there are statements like mordered's "make us feel honestly warm and fuzzy", and most of the anecdotes I've heard about pg users are that they are downstream-ish. I just wondered if there was a way to capture them. | 13:55 |
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| mordred | persia: actually, I think the problem is that the pg supporters are not currently part of the 'us' if they _were_ part of the us, we'd collectively feel like we have the resources to do both things | 13:55 |
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| sdague | mordred: ++ | 13:55 |
| sdague | right, if you are just going to be downstream, then you get what upstream gives you | 13:55 |
| persia | mordred: Right. Hence my question: can we make the pg supporters part of "us"? | 13:55 |
| mordred | but right now, 'us' only includes people with the mysql background, so 'our' opinion of our ability to do well by pg folks is low | 13:55 |
| sdague | that's kind of the definition of streams | 13:55 |
| mordred | persia: yes. I agree - that is ultimately the thing that needs to happen for future pg work in openstack to be successful | 13:56 |
| sdague | I also think about this a lot - https://blogs.gnome.org/markmc/2014/06/06/an-ideal-openstack-developer/ | 13:56 |
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| sdague | because if we continue to ask the world of new developers, our entire onboarding and learning model will be broken | 14:06 |
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| openstackgerrit | Chris Dent proposed openstack/governance master: Document lack of posgresql support https://review.openstack.org/465589 | 14:08 |
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| cdent | sdague, mordred, fungi ^: same as sdague's version in action, but shorter | 14:08 |
| cdent | and with a typo in the commit summary orz | 14:08 |
| openstackgerrit | Chris Dent proposed openstack/governance master: Document lack of postgresql support https://review.openstack.org/465589 | 14:08 |
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| sdague | cdent: you forgot the operator community | 14:10 |
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| cdent | that's kind of intentional. we're making a statement about the ATC community. also we already know from forum discussion that we actually don't have a very good view onto the operator community; only the operator community that happens to talk to us | 14:12 |
| sdague | we do have many views | 14:13 |
| sdague | it's not just the survey | 14:13 |
| sdague | the posts and answers on openstack-operators are at least 20 to 1 on the mysql side | 14:14 |
| openstackgerrit | Chris Dent proposed openstack/governance master: Document lack of postgresql support https://review.openstack.org/465589 | 14:14 |
| sdague | every operators mid cycle has sessions devoted to mysql best practices, there has never been one on pg | 14:14 |
| cdent | sdague: yeah, I know that, but that's not all that relelvant for this discussion | 14:14 |
| sdague | cdent: it's completely relevant | 14:14 |
| cdent | what matters is that we're not doing things with it (either testing or using) at the atc level | 14:14 |
| cdent | the rest of the information is extraneous | 14:15 |
| sdague | I don't understand why the level of share and expertise and getting real answers isn't relevant here | 14:15 |
| sdague | no, I completely disagree | 14:15 |
| sdague | this is about ecosystem | 14:15 |
| sdague | the whole thing matters | 14:15 |
| cdent | I know we disagree, that's why I made an alternate :) | 14:16 |
| cdent | From my standpoint what matters is that we don't have people who want to care and feed postgres. Not that we do have people that want to care and feed mysql. That's well known. | 14:17 |
| cdent | In order for the de-documenting situation to change, we need people to care and feed postgres. If we don't get that, then the path continues. | 14:17 |
| cdent | If we do, we reconsider | 14:18 |
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| cdent | sdague: just in case it's not clear, I didn't write the alternate because I want it to be the one to be published, but because hopefully it makes my concerns with the other one more clear | 14:24 |
| sdague | maybe, but the thing that seems to be clear is not feeling that operator data is relevant, which boggles my mind :) | 14:25 |
| Anticimex | mordred: the bias i mentioned was my own. i see that i didn't make that very clear though. i.e. my own biases in the way i from the outside read & interpret from threads, meetings and reviews the situation | 14:25 |
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| cdent | sdague: I'm not dismissing operators as a class. In fact I'd argue that I'm being more concerned about the invisible operators. what I'm trying to state, though, is that there are a smaller number of factors in the decision than your version asserts: | 14:27 |
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| cdent | it's not about mysql is supported by most people | 14:28 |
| cdent | it's about posgresql is not getting support | 14:28 |
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| cdent | the mysql part simply isn't relevant to what we do with posgresql | 14:28 |
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| cdent | if we make it about mysql then it is very easy for the document to become a contentious thing in which people want to flame | 14:29 |
| cdent | and that's not useful | 14:29 |
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| sdague | support includes not only upstream developer support, which is all theory, and includes no actual large running systems | 14:29 |
| cdent | the simple truth is: we're not testing and exploring postgresql sufficiently to currently declare it supported | 14:29 |
| cdent | in fact the whole doc could be just that one phrase | 14:29 |
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| cdent | I think we've established there are plenty of running postgres deployments, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say when you say "no actual"? | 14:31 |
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| sdague | no running systems on the dev side | 14:32 |
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| sdague | I didn't mean to say there are no pg deploys | 14:32 |
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| sdague | I'm saying support in a community is more than just devs, it's also operators cross supporting each other in various scenarios. Some of which is tribal knowledge there, and some gets back propogated to help change data models and optimizations in the platform | 14:33 |
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| cdent | yes, I understand that | 14:34 |
| cdent | but I disagree that the presence or lack thereof of that community is an _actual_ direct factor in this decision | 14:35 |
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| cdent | it's nice information, good to know, but distracting | 14:36 |
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| cdent | sometimes that context is extremely useful (and I'm usually very much in favor of it), but in this case, it is sending people off on tangents | 14:36 |
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| sdague | ok, well that least is a clear axis of disagreement. | 14:37 |
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| cdent | If the goal is to make mysql the one true db, it is very useful info. If the goal is to use the database abstraction layer to the fullest including the story is using the current state of the universe as an explanation for how the universe ought to be, which is bad pool. | 14:38 |
| Anticimex | sdague: there's a selection bias in the mysql vs pg thing. i believe operators that choose pg does so because they have expertise on it already. many shops do, obviously. therefore the ones that choose to use pg are by a bit of selection bias probably more senior than the average mysql user | 14:38 |
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| Anticimex | since it's an basically active choice to pick postgres since it's so very narrowly mentioned and documented, my gut feeling is that ~95% of everything openstack documentation kind of assumes mysql | 14:39 |
| sdague | Anticimex: that's definitely possible. And if it's clear that you might need to be doing some picking up on your own, and you are cool with that, so be it | 14:40 |
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| Anticimex | and i don't think this a 'complex' issue, but a multi-dimensional one. there's the dimension of developers and lack of pg skills in dev community (which probably gets excarbated due to lack of a range of good mysql settings, where pg gets incorrect blame among devs) | 14:40 |
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| Anticimex | then there's, at least for me, a dimension of intention among test coverage and data correctness (not said as pg fan, but as operator who really would be hurt by database corruption etc). this dimension obviously does not require postgres | 14:42 |
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| Anticimex | and then i think i saw what could be a third or fourth dimension but those two are the ones i see as major | 14:42 |
| sdague | during the in room session when folks in the pg camp spoke up, there was definitely shock that large sites were running on mysql. Like they didn't really believe me when I said it. So I think there is also some tribalism in there which leaks out. | 14:43 |
| sdague | Anticimex: I definitely agree that data corruption is bad | 14:43 |
| Anticimex | well, migration paths for existing users (depends on intetion/direction and eventual actual delivery of whatever is missing for "supporting" pg), unclear documentation etc (easily fixable once intention/direction is concluded), are other issues | 14:44 |
| sdague | I think zzzeek figured out one more flag we need to help there, but we did lock things down | 14:44 |
| sdague | it's not quite the wild west it once was | 14:44 |
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| Anticimex | sdague: yeah i attended the forum session as well | 14:46 |
| sdague | Anticimex: ok, cool, my irc to meatspace mapping not all that great :) | 14:46 |
| Anticimex | i have lack of insight into how many gate tests are doing onesided testing etc | 14:46 |
| Anticimex | so i'm blind there | 14:46 |
| Anticimex | sdague: yeah i'm quite a lurker also | 14:46 |
| sdague | there are zero gates of base iass on pg | 14:47 |
| sdague | that was turned off over 6 months ago | 14:47 |
| Anticimex | but i react to the allusion that pg tests breaks things for devs because i don't see that actually substantiated | 14:47 |
| Anticimex | so i'd be super happy if we could enumerate the "what's missing" list | 14:47 |
| Anticimex | or "what's painful" | 14:47 |
| Anticimex | that mordred began on | 14:47 |
| sdague | Anticimex: sure, I provided 3 examples above | 14:48 |
| sdague | plus the zero downtime keystone plan | 14:48 |
| Anticimex | i think zero downtime is a red herring but that's another discussion i think | 14:48 |
| Anticimex | or maybe not | 14:48 |
| sdague | Anticimex: why is it a red herring? | 14:48 |
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| Anticimex | perhaps it's a question of definition of "zero downtime" | 14:48 |
| Anticimex | i may be wrong ) | 14:49 |
| Anticimex | google SRE book says 100% uptime usually isn't worth it | 14:49 |
| sdague | keystone actually needs to be zero downtime if you are going to have a cloud without service windows | 14:49 |
| Anticimex | yeah but who has cloud without any type of service window? | 14:49 |
| sdague | public clouds | 14:49 |
| Anticimex | aws has service windows | 14:50 |
| Anticimex | for computes at least whenever xen breaks | 14:50 |
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| sdague | they don't have a change window for their auth system | 14:50 |
| fungi | they don't live migrate instances off computes, upgrade the hypervisors and migrate them back on? | 14:50 |
| sdague | fungi: well, they now live patch xen | 14:50 |
| fungi | hah | 14:51 |
| Anticimex | anyway, the scope of the keystone zero downtime thing implies some dev/test on postgres as well then if it really requires some db-engine specific triggers etc | 14:51 |
| sdague | so they don't take down time for that any more | 14:51 |
| fungi | that's gotta be _really_ fun ;) | 14:51 |
| Anticimex | fungi: aws is: "hello dear useryour instances are gonna get shut off and hopefully booted again on XXXX" | 14:51 |
| sdague | Anticimex: right, which basically takes it off the table if we're saying pg is actually supported | 14:51 |
| Anticimex | or "your instance will get wiped because we're decomissioning the hw" :P | 14:51 |
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| Anticimex | sdague: yeah but i think that's going at the issue of pg deprecation from the wrong angle. | 14:52 |
| sdague | Anticimex: that is very different from instances failing to build because keystone is in the middle of an upgrade | 14:52 |
| sdague | and fails token calls | 14:52 |
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| Anticimex | an etherpad for enumeration? | 14:53 |
| sdague | Anticimex: well, if someone of that opinion wants to solve the keystone zero downtime problem, again I'm happy to stop caring | 14:53 |
| Anticimex | yeah, which comes back to communication | 14:54 |
| sdague | my issue remains lots of people saying "it's not bad", "well here are some things no one is tackling because of complexity, and this makes it worse" | 14:54 |
| Anticimex | i think most operators that have picked pg assumed it was "supported" | 14:54 |
| sdague | Anticimex: right, and they were wrong | 14:54 |
| sdague | and we have to communicate that fact | 14:54 |
| fungi | (because our documentation was wrong, but yes) | 14:54 |
| Anticimex | so i'm all for communicating accurately what the level of support it, but conditioning path forwards based on a set of possible results/outcomes | 14:54 |
| sdague | and then ponder what to do with previous mistakes | 14:54 |
| Anticimex | ultimatum-like i guess | 14:54 |
| fungi | s/was/is still, unfortunately/ | 14:55 |
| sdague | fungi: right, we definitely gave them bad info | 14:55 |
| Anticimex | but i don't think it is wrong of openstack to support pg | 14:55 |
| Anticimex | and i'm not sure a consumer of openstack can be put to blame for what the docs says either | 14:55 |
| Anticimex | they were allowed to pick pg, they happily did. *shrug* | 14:55 |
| sdague | Anticimex: sure, again, if people that cared were solving all the problem that are made complicated by it, I would actually have no cares | 14:55 |
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| fungi | i don't think we blame them, but at the same time it's being asserted that we can't afford to actually make good on what the documentation promised there | 14:56 |
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| Anticimex | fungi: nod and i agree it's high time to communicate this | 14:56 |
| cdent | this is why I want to be sure the document doesn't talk about mysql a great deal. If it does, we are making a statement that the path forward is to only support mysql, rather than fixing the fundamental problem: getting people who care about stuff that people use. | 14:56 |
| cdent | s/fixing/talking about/ | 14:57 |
| Anticimex | but i think communicating "we're killing it!" already is early (yeah, message changed but that was the original premise in the discussion) | 14:57 |
| fungi | just wishing that what the documentation says would become reality is not enough, as much as that might be nice if it worked tat way | 14:57 |
| sdague | Anticimex: right, the message did change, based on feedback | 14:57 |
| Anticimex | i would be very satisfied if the current communication is among the line sof: we're havign the following clear discrepancies / deficiencies / deltas between mysql and pg support so keep this in mind, and we're considering removing pg support in xx time unless these are being addressed | 14:58 |
| Anticimex | s/current// | 14:58 |
| Anticimex | something like that seems fair to me anyway | 14:58 |
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| Anticimex | perhaps word the consideration for removal as punted to xx time in the future. splitting hairs perhaps? but like, "we'll re-evaluate the situation at XX ATC meeting" or sth | 14:59 |
| Anticimex | sdague: nod | 15:00 |
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| sdague | Anticimex: in the current proposal, what are your objections? | 15:00 |
| sdague | I guess that's where I'm having issues with because I thought the current proposal was that | 15:00 |
| Anticimex | i have to reread. i'll check cdents too | 15:00 |
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| Anticimex | sdague: the aura of the current wording in 427880 first two paragraphs is "everyone's using mysql so you should too", 3rd paragraph is ~"some projects are really sloppy with sql and pg breaks our devs work", 4th one begins addressing the documentation issue, the warning message is only communicating current state, and doesn't refer to the bucket list of things to do to reconcile the level of suppo | 15:06 |
| Anticimex | rt. the resolution then proceeds to ... | 15:06 |
| Anticimex | ... detail that migration investigation controls future decision on killing it (presumably, if it is possible to migrate out it should be killed) | 15:06 |
| Anticimex | in summary the intent of the resolution as it reads to me is "we want to kill pg" | 15:07 |
| cdent | Anticimex: that's how it reads to me too | 15:08 |
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| Anticimex | cdents text is much more condensed in spelling out why this resolution is happening, and has the same warning test proposal. keeps the same recommendations but adds also a short paragraph about way forward for keeping PG | 15:27 |
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| Anticimex | i think that last part is very thin, i'm missing a more specific problem set somewhere | 15:27 |
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| cdent | yeah, I would have said more there except I'm not entirely sure what needs to (or can) be said. I think enumerating all the issues has happened in discussion but not on the documents. I'm not sure it is entirely necessary as the required outcome is the same: either people don't care and we kill pg, or they do and we don't. | 15:29 |
| Anticimex | so i'm not sure how these tc resolutions work, clearly i'm not TC or anything, so perhaps TC is within its right to decide what to do with openstack and that is fine. but to me it is quite significant and important that this is done on honest and transparent grounds | 15:29 |
| openstackgerrit | Sean Dague proposed openstack/governance master: Declare plainly the current state of Posgresql in OpenStack https://review.openstack.org/427880 | 15:30 |
| sdague | cdent / Anticimex thank you for feedback, hopefully the new draft addresses much of that | 15:30 |
| Anticimex | cdent: right, and as a related feedback on that, i'm missing the communication towards operators/users about the lay of the land | 15:30 |
| Anticimex | the warning only says "stay away" | 15:30 |
| Anticimex | or well, "be warned" perhaps is more appropriate. | 15:31 |
| sdague | Anticimex: how would you communicate the current state of the world | 15:31 |
| Anticimex | i don't know yet. let's see your new 427880 | 15:31 |
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| jd_ | who else is pbr-core and can merge the latest Sphinx fix? | 15:36 |
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| Anticimex | sdague: quite a rewrite, and one step back in push for kill | 15:38 |
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| Anticimex | but i wonder if this resolution isn't subordinated to a TC intention of what do with databases, which was biefly mention in this discussion a bit back | 15:39 |
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| Anticimex | i.e. pros/cons on having multi-engine db support, as the first question | 15:40 |
| Anticimex | if yes, then what does that depend on and what are the deltas, if no, well, then the discussion is much simpler | 15:40 |
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| Anticimex | the preoposed resolution(s) seems to walk this a bit backwards, ie is reactive rather than prescriptive | 15:45 |
| dims | jd_ : done | 15:45 |
| jd_ | dims: <3 | 15:45 |
| dims | jd_ : at your service :) | 15:46 |
| dims | cdent : we don't want folks to ask folks to show up with postgres skills, patches, ci jobs etc do we? | 15:46 |
| dims | sdague : ^ | 15:46 |
| cdent | dims: we don't? | 15:47 |
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| dims | cdent : i don't see a shout out to the readers of the resolution to come help in upstream hence asking | 15:48 |
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| cdent | my alternate includes a 4th todo statement of "make this the board/foundation's problem" | 15:49 |
| Anticimex | i think it's a bit backward and would be much easier if agreement was made that the pros outweigh the cons on going to single-sql-engine | 15:49 |
| arslanq | hi guys i just deployed openstack devstack (Master)..I am unable to access horizon...when i checked the httpd service it is listening like: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/9021999 | 15:49 |
| Anticimex | or well, it would also be more clear if it was concluded that multi-engine support is worth its money | 15:49 |
| arslanq | also i cant do "screen -x" | 15:49 |
| cdent | dims: because we've been asserting all over the place that the people already reading this stuff aren't the ones who have the solution | 15:49 |
| dims | cdent : lines 61-65? | 15:50 |
| clarkb | arslanq: screen is no longer used by default (so screen behavior is expected) | 15:50 |
| cdent | dims: 35-39 on this one https://review.openstack.org/#/c/465589/3/resolutions/20170517-document-lack-of-postgres-support.rst | 15:50 |
| Anticimex | single-engine con: risk of engine suddenly disappearing or getting bought and closed down (or similar) | 15:51 |
| arslanq | clarkb: whats about the horizon issue? and also if there is no screen then how can i check/restart services? | 15:51 |
| clarkb | arslanq: services are managed with systemd by default now so you use systemctl and journalctl to manage services | 15:52 |
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| clarkb | I dont know about horizon, currently rebooting home network gear so camt quite check yet | 15:52 |
| dims | ack reading that carefully cdent | 15:52 |
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| cdent | dims: it's meant as a way to think about alternate ways of saying the same stuff, not as a ready-to-use | 15:53 |
| dims | cdent : sorry i was reading the other one | 15:53 |
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| arslanq | clarkb: ok....any workaround for now? i need it now | 15:54 |
| mordred | Anticimex: ah - gotcha (re bias statement - working chronologically through scrollback, haven't gotten any further yet) | 15:55 |
| dims | cdent : i like yours better. will drop a note about the warning in review | 15:55 |
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| Anticimex | dims: if the objective is to sneak to single-engine usage, i guess it's counterproductive to ask for all those things? which is why it seems to me more straighforward and simplified to work out multi-vs-single engine goal first | 15:56 |
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| clarkb | arslanq: is the horizon service enabled? thats first thing I would check, then from there check if there is a vhost for it | 15:56 |
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| clarkb | arslanq: then check the logs for horizon assuming everything else checks out | 15:56 |
| arslanq | clarkb: i don't see any logs for any service except ovs-vswitch in /opt/stack/logs | 15:57 |
| clarkb | arslanq: right you have to use journalctl now | 15:57 |
| clarkb | arslanq: it should be documented let me find the fiel | 15:58 |
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| Anticimex | mordred: by the way, based on what sdague is listing, the choice for single-sql-engine openstack is clearly pretty obvious | 15:58 |
| clarkb | arslanq: doc/source/systemd.rst | 15:58 |
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| arslanq | clarkb: you wanna take a look to this https://pastebin.mozilla.org/9022000 | 15:59 |
| mordred | Anticimex: so much scrollback - I agree and disagree with too many things all at once!!! | 15:59 |
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| Anticimex | but it's not at all as clear that single-engine is the better way forward, i don't know what to think, i would need lots of facts and pros/cons to form a proper opinion :) | 16:00 |
| clarkb | arslanq: cool that implies horizon is running, next step is checking the logs with journalctl as documented in the file I posted | 16:00 |
| arslanq | ok let me check that and tell you | 16:00 |
| dims | Anticimex : right, that's why i was asking that question | 16:00 |
| Anticimex | and multi-engine support could still be conditionalized, so there's no reason that such a discussion would deadlock or leave devs out to dry etc | 16:00 |
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| dims | cdent : some feedback on the warning | 16:01 |
| dims | dhellmann : have some time today to chat about the containers / publish thread? | 16:02 |
| cdent | dims: the warning is copied verbatim from sdague's version, but will give it a look see | 16:02 |
| Anticimex | i also think people could be a bit more objective if put to evaluate the pros/cons of multi-vs-single engine | 16:02 |
| arslanq | clarkb: i am not sure what is the key word for horizon like for nova-compute it is n-cpu....never mind my stupid question | 16:03 |
| mordred | Anticimex: I believe there are even some base philosophical intents that are not necessarily agreed on yet. such as - should openstack take an active role in managing and administering the databases it needs, or should it assume that there is a black-box DB url that is being managed | 16:03 |
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| mordred | one allows for providing more help to the operator at the expense of making things harder for the teams who do have a set of people who want to manage the database tier | 16:04 |
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| mordred | and the more openstack is in the business of taking an active role in admin style tasks, the more multi-db becomes a liability rather than a strength | 16:05 |
| mordred | whereas if the db tier is a blackbox that sql is sent to, the relative cost for multi-db is low, but the amount that each operator is expected to tend to is higher | 16:05 |
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| Anticimex | mordred: i think that's a much more fruitful topic area to discuss, rather than driving to there in reverse | 16:07 |
| arslanq | clarkb: these are the service which are enabled : https://pastebin.mozilla.org/9022003 | 16:07 |
| Anticimex | ( sdague has provided two data points that indicates that mysql folks asks twice the amount of questions ;) ) | 16:08 |
| Anticimex | mordred: that seems to make up aspects of a multi-vs-single discussion | 16:08 |
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| mordred | Anticimex: maybe I'll start a mailing list thread on that topic area | 16:08 |
| Anticimex | are there any projects that have asked for this? | 16:08 |
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| Anticimex | sounds like a good start i guess | 16:09 |
| mordred | Anticimex: and also, you made a point earlier that the people who chose postgres tend to do so because of the existence of postgres expertise already - whereas mysql is the default | 16:09 |
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| mordred | so we're more likely to get people in the mysql ecosystem who do not know mysql best practices | 16:09 |
| Anticimex | yeah that's fairly clear i think | 16:09 |
| mordred | Anticimex: I know that I have received complaints from operators that openstack is a bucket of parts that still expects the operators to handle the hard bits | 16:10 |
| Anticimex | mordred: i just gave a comment in the same direction to cdents alternative resolution proposal, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/465589 | 16:10 |
| mordred | and that we should provide much clearer and managed integrations with the standard operator needs | 16:10 |
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| mordred | this is at odds with early-on operator desires that we stay out of their way because they already had established operatational patterns | 16:11 |
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| mordred | I think the shape of the ecosystem has changed since then, but the pattern of engaging has not | 16:11 |
| Anticimex | i think experienced mysql or pg shops would rather do it themselves and have openstack focus on something they don't already have expertise in | 16:12 |
| mordred | yes. I agree | 16:12 |
| Anticimex | but for the less experienced.. well, openstack is probably "yikes" | 16:12 |
| mordred | but on the other hand, I think the number of shops with experienced mysql or pg teams is an unfortunately small percentage of the shops deploying openstack | 16:12 |
| mordred | yup | 16:12 |
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| Anticimex | it's not clear that "managed mysql" or "refernece architecture" (are there any well-known success stories of 'reference architectures'? from my personal experience they're usually crap :D) | 16:13 |
| Anticimex | i honestly believe mysqls lack of awesome defaults complicates it a little for deployers. also the almost dangerous suggestions that you just apt-get install galera and all is fine and dandy | 16:14 |
| * Anticimex is certainly not going to suggest that openstack drop mysql, so read it correctly :) | 16:15 | |
| mordred | yah. this is why I think it's potentially important for openstack to take a stronger hand - because defaults out of the box are not sufficent | 16:15 |
| Anticimex | if you're setting up public cloud you need expertise IMHO | 16:15 |
| Anticimex | i think galera is overkill (it bit me) | 16:16 |
| mordred | you do - but honestly we have folks running openstack public clouds with 4-person ops teams | 16:16 |
| Anticimex | it seems to skid a bit on ACID etc, at least master/master | 16:16 |
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| Anticimex | mordred: yeah, and i'm not against simplifications that also address their needs, not at all | 16:16 |
| mordred | so the more we say "clearly your db team should handle that" is the more we're making it harder for those teams to be successful - potentially | 16:16 |
| Anticimex | there's no inherent value in complicating things at all | 16:17 |
| mordred | Anticimex: and yes - galera is an excellent example of where openstack needs to be deployment architecture aware - it turnsout to successfully galera, you need to behave in certain ways | 16:17 |
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| mordred | the way you write an application for a galera cluster, vs a master-slave async replication setup, vs an active/passive failover are all a bit different | 16:18 |
| Anticimex | yeah | 16:18 |
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| mordred | and the answer as a db consultant is often "you need to structure your application in the following way" not "you need to do these things as an admin" | 16:18 |
| Anticimex | to me galera seems a poor fit for openstack typical use case, but a good fit for geo/globally distributed sql | 16:18 |
| Anticimex | yeah | 16:18 |
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| Anticimex | seems obvious to me you need dto be aware that galera doesn't really give you strong ACID. you need to beware and take care | 16:19 |
| Anticimex | gotta go, sorry for all the ramblings here :) | 16:19 |
| Anticimex | looking forward to the ml thread | 16:20 |
| mordred | Anticimex: thanks for the rambling! | 16:20 |
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| arslanq | clarkb: any update? | 16:39 |
| clarkb | arslanq: I still think you need to look at logs | 16:40 |
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| clarkb | arslanq: horizon isn't in the enabled systemd services so I would check apache and if nothing there then check the devstack log itself | 16:40 |
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| arslanq | clarkb: i just checked "/var/log/httpd/horizon_access.log" : https://pastebin.mozilla.org/9022009 | 16:43 |
| arslanq | these are few lines from bottom | 16:43 |
| arslanq | clarkb: i successfully launched VMs from CLI | 16:44 |
| clarkb | that looks like logs from placement api and keystone leaking into horizon | 16:44 |
| clarkb | so can't really tell if anything horizon is running from that | 16:44 |
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| fungi | is horizon maybe disabled by default in devstack now? we stopped enabling it in our default devstack-gate/tempest jobs right? | 16:49 |
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| dhellmann | dims: I'm eating lunch, but maybe in 15-20 min? | 17:03 |
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| sdague | fungi: it's still on by default in devstack | 17:13 |
| sdague | but we could turn it off in testing, I'm not sure there are real tests there | 17:13 |
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| fungi | ahh, i was misremembering then | 17:14 |
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| sdague | I usually turn it off locally to safe time as it's about 60 seconds additional install time | 17:17 |
| sdague | but, people like having the interface to poke with, so on by default still makes sense | 17:18 |
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| arslanq | clarkb: i just added another compute node but i cant see it in openstack host list | 17:37 |
| clarkb | arslanq: you have to run the discovery command | 17:38 |
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| arslanq | clarkb: and what is it? | 17:40 |
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| clarkb | arslanq: I don't know off the top of my head, you'll need to look it up | 17:40 |
| arslanq | clarkb: ok i'll do | 17:41 |
| arslanq | clarkb: Thanks | 17:41 |
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| breton | clarkb: i guess it happens because keystone now runs on port :80 too | 18:16 |
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| cdent | \o/ on losing authenticating request ids | 19:09 |
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| fungi | as simple as possible, but no simpler | 20:05 |
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| efried | mordred yt? | 21:09 |
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| mordred | efried: sup? | 21:16 |
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| efried | mordred Wanted to bend your ear about the idea of moving get_service_url() entirely out of nova and into ksa | 21:16 |
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| efried | ...so it can be useful to other services. | 21:16 |
| efried | mordred Ref: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/458257/ | 21:17 |
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| efried | specifically https://review.openstack.org/#/c/458257/8/nova/utils.py | 21:17 |
| mordred | efried: oh - yes. this is definitely a thing I believe we shoudl do - but I believe we need to go a couple of more rounds on the API-WG specs before we do | 21:17 |
| mordred | efried: which I intend to update tomorrow after having chatted with folks last week, then we can start badgering people for agreement | 21:18 |
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| efried | mordred Okay, I don't have a frame of reference there - does that mean "within the life of this change set," "after this change set but before pike feature freeze," "some time after pike," ...? | 21:20 |
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| mordred | efried: I'm _definitely_ aiming for before feature freeze | 21:22 |
| mordred | like, within the next couple of weeks | 21:22 |
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| efried | mordred Okay, nice. Kinda trying to gauge what I should be doing, if anything, with that change set. | 21:23 |
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| mordred | efried: nod. I'll ping you tomorrow with the spec follow up and see what you think | 21:24 |
| efried | mordred Sounds good. Meanwhile... are you my go-to for the service token thing as well? | 21:25 |
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| mordred | efried: maybe? I'm probably not the _worst_ one | 21:27 |
| edleafe | mordred: btw - heading out to PyCon tomorrow, so I won't be reviewing your voluminous patches for a little while | 21:28 |
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| edleafe | mordred: didn't want you to think that you scared me off | 21:28 |
| mordred | edleafe: :) | 21:30 |
| mordred | edleafe: I'll think that anyway | 21:30 |
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