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| EmilienM | lbragstad: I'm back online but maybe late for you | 02:16 |
|---|---|---|
| lbragstad | EmilienM o/ | 02:16 |
| EmilienM | lbragstad: how can I help? | 02:16 |
| lbragstad | EmilienM i saw your note about updating the pike goals | 02:17 |
| lbragstad | EmilienM i submitted a patch - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/440840/ | 02:17 |
| * EmilienM clocks | 02:17 | |
| EmilienM | clicks* | 02:17 |
| lbragstad | EmilienM i can't seem to find the exact blueprint we used for tracking that work in keystone - i believe it happened sometime between 2012 and 2013 though | 02:17 |
| EmilienM | lbragstad: well, that's good to me | 02:18 |
| EmilienM | keystone is the best example here, where everything was done already for long time :D | 02:18 |
| lbragstad | EmilienM process wise I'm not sure how much detail you want for completion documents | 02:18 |
| lbragstad | ;) | 02:18 |
| EmilienM | lbragstad: no worries, this patch is enough imho | 02:18 |
| lbragstad | EmilienM awesome - that was my question :) | 02:18 |
| EmilienM | lbragstad: cool! thanks for asking | 02:21 |
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| openstackgerrit | Anusha Ramineni proposed openstack/governance master: Add congress-dashboard to governance https://review.openstack.org/440952 | 07:05 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add os-traits project under nova governance https://review.openstack.org/437167 | 10:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add planning artifacts for goal-python35 https://review.openstack.org/437349 | 10:24 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add planning artifact for goal-deploy-api-in-wsgi https://review.openstack.org/437354 | 10:25 |
| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: Add congress-dashboard to governance https://review.openstack.org/440952 | 10:27 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: just reading though, I like the inclusion of delete orphaned resources | 13:04 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: once you catch up on the high level limits proposed spec - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/440815/ - let me know, because in intersection of your specs and the keystone ones, I'm starting to see things I think we need to take off the table to move forward | 13:04 |
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| openstackgerrit | Telles Mota Vidal Nóbrega proposed openstack/governance master: Sahara Artifacts to deploy through WSGI https://review.openstack.org/441117 | 13:13 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: ok, how is the reading going, I've got a fresh cup of coffee, and wanted to discuss a few things I think we have to do to ever move this forward | 13:15 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: almost there, just looking at your proposed stages | 13:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: cool, I am done | 13:21 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: I added a few comments, but nothing that changes things much | 13:21 |
| sdague | ok, cool. Let me just dump some thoughts here which aren't in that spec. | 13:23 |
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| sdague | stuff that we might need to just take off the table entirely, so that there is a path forward | 13:23 |
| johnthetubaguy | sure | 13:23 |
| sdague | 1) I think we need to dump user quota as a concept, only Nova seems to really implement this, and it's done largely to create 2 tier hierarchy with projects | 13:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: I think that was from the per user policy folks | 13:24 |
| sdague | right | 13:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: so, +1 | 13:24 |
| sdague | hierarchy should solve that | 13:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah | 13:25 |
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| sdague | 2) I think we need to take overbooking off the table for the next 2 cycles (though assume it might come back later) | 13:25 |
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| sdague | because what I have found is every discussion in this space turns into everyone thinking about how the math works in overbooking, and missing all the first steps | 13:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | I was thinking of talking hierarchy off the table, but I think taking all kinds of overbooking off the take is easier | 13:26 |
| sdague | and it's an interesting math problem, but it's so premature | 13:26 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so it depends what you think the no overbooking case is, I think I subscribe to the cinder model, which is different to what most folks were assuming | 13:27 |
| sdague | 3) quota classes need to be taken off the table. All they are is a macro for setting a bunch of limits at once | 13:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, will need that, but its a keystone problem now, and probably should match thier implied roles stuff anyways | 13:27 |
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| sdague | and quota classes get to be inside baseball pretty quick for folks that haven't thought about it | 13:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, its complexity we can punt on | 13:28 |
| sdague | I honestly think that with keystone primatives, you just implement that in ansible playbooks pretty easily | 13:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | it doesn't change the service <-> keystone interface I have in my head anyways | 13:28 |
| sdague | right | 13:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, most folks have scripted that on top right now | 13:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | (FWIW, that includes the people who added that code, AFAIK) | 13:29 |
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| sdague | also, while you gave a o_O to the common library having both the limits checks and quota checks in it, I would argue that this thing is really important to have the logic of sane limits match the logic of quota checking in that limits mode | 13:30 |
| dstanek | sdague: this is the first i've heard of quota classes | 13:30 |
| sdague | and while keystone will be the only consumer of limits interfaces, if they aren't all tested together, it's going to be buggy as well | 13:30 |
| sdague | as hell | 13:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: so what I imagine the common lib to do I noted in a comment in your spec just now | 13:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think its not far away from what you where thinking, if I read your spec correctly | 13:31 |
| dstanek | the "assume it might come back later" is important to me. i was just advocating this yesterday. don't implement, but take into account during design so we don't end up in another corner | 13:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: its a crazy nova bit of basically dead code, but the idea is interesting, longer term, best to ignore it for now | 13:32 |
| sdague | yeh, honestly though, I would make this thing something that knows nothing about context, and litterally is just a prologish "given this structure and this delta, are we good" | 13:32 |
| sdague | have as few requirements as possible, so it doesn't need branches, and should be safe to upgrade on all your projects whenever this is a bug fix | 13:33 |
| sdague | because that bug fix might be needed on both the setting side as well as the enforce side | 13:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: yeah, we can do that glue on the Nova side like we do for policy, thats probably better | 13:33 |
| sdague | yeh, or some other oslo lib that has convenience functions | 13:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: the bit I was meaning really is the register callback for the count functions | 13:33 |
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| sdague | but the actual core math feels like if we don't keep it pretty abstract, again things are going to get too complicated to manage | 13:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: like call this method, with the scope defined, to get answers for vcpu, ram and disk | 13:34 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: yeh, sure | 13:34 |
| sdague | I think that's kind of why that's going to take a whole cycle to figure out | 13:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | so the Nova code is almost written like that already, it needs to be different, but yeah, something a bit like that | 13:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: +1 | 13:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | this is very much something we should take to the forum to ask operators (and users) if it looks correct | 13:36 |
| sdague | yeh | 13:36 |
| sdague | well, the important thing though is moving the sets into keystone can move forward even if we don't have all the enforcement models figured out | 13:36 |
| johnthetubaguy | deprecation wise, maybe we deprecate user quotas this cycle, although thats a bit rude if we haven't replace it yet, but good for early feedback | 13:36 |
| sdague | it's good signaling | 13:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah | 13:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am all for good signaling | 13:37 |
| sdague | they won't go away until you can have hierarchy | 13:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, it feels a bit like nova-network (well hopfully not too like that) | 13:37 |
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| johnthetubaguy | this is crazy, please don't use this | 13:38 |
| johnthetubaguy | message | 13:38 |
| sdague | yep | 13:38 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: ok, in looking at the comments | 13:40 |
| sdague | I don't actually think that coherent limits in keystone is just UX, I think that if we can't trust the limit hierarchy to be clean, the enforcement code gets an order of magnitude more complicated | 13:40 |
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| sdague | I'm also really tempted to build out an entirely separate document with blockdiag of all the limit possibilities in the hiearchy I see so far | 13:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | so there is a case I was thinking about | 13:43 |
| sdague | I don't want it to distract from this, but I think we are often reusing words that mean different things | 13:43 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I think we need to describe what we mean by no overbooking | 13:43 |
| dstanek | sdague: i would like that. the rules for validating limits could be super simple or very complicated. | 13:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | in my head... | 13:43 |
| sdague | I also am not sure how the cinder model works here, because don't they decrement parent limits when they allocate child quota | 13:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | its basically a subtree is given exclusive quota | 13:43 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: they have a reservation thing, which tells you what is left for the parent | 13:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: at least I thoughts that what they intended | 13:44 |
| dstanek | i'm also curious to know if you guys have thought about the CRUD API for limits - lots of different ways to do it and i've not starting thinking about the trade offs yet | 13:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: something tells me we should do the service <-> keystone interface first, I am not sure why | 13:44 |
| sdague | dstanek: honestly, I haven't really yet, because I wanted to get concept buy in, and I'd be happy for keystone folks to weigh in on what they think it should be | 13:45 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: ?? | 13:45 |
| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, hi | 13:45 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: hey | 13:45 |
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| dstanek | johnthetubaguy: i don't see that one being too difficult. the hardest part is figuring out what parts of the hierarchy to return based on how enforcement will work | 13:46 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: I don't understand how you do this without doing the admin setting of the information first | 13:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: the thing in my head? or something else? | 13:46 |
| dstanek | sdague: happy to weigh in :-) | 13:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: oh, I see what you mean | 13:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | I guess in my head I see how we do the quota check | 13:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | if we can agree that info, and the logical space | 13:47 |
| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, when you define a relationship, sqlalchemy is able to expose a 1-n relationship into a list | 13:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | we then work out how admins have to set that up | 13:47 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: right, so I think you have to go the other way, do the admin putting information into the system | 13:48 |
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| sdague | then you have the constraints on what the data can look like, and you pull it onto the other side and do enforce on it | 13:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: you are right, maybe I did that in my head without realising actually | 13:48 |
| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, is it possible to have the same behavior without defining a relationship? | 13:48 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: a relationship has lots of behaviors. are you referring to an instance level, "obj.things" is a list of related objects? | 13:49 |
| sdague | I think if you don't start from how you create the limit structure, you can get into a "well, if I had this data" that is nice to operate on, but completely impossible to describe the operator steps to create | 13:49 |
| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, exactly ... typically defined with a backref | 13:49 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: taking your qeustion literally, you would say, "obj.things = session.query(RelatedThing).with_parent(obj).all()" | 13:49 |
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| sdague | dstanek / johnthetubaguy well my goal right now is to figure out how we get agreement on the broad strokes, then I think we can dive into the keystone setting interfaces | 13:50 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: if you'd like that to be "auto", then you'd use @property to run that code internally | 13:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah | 13:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: so that bit about definding what we mean by no overbook, I think that was actually me thinking about this operator API, my bad | 13:50 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: http://docs.sqlalchemy.org/en/latest/orm/join_conditions.html#building-query-enabled-properties | 13:51 |
| sdague | ok, so how about in anther document (maybe still in keystone?) I put together some of the quota trees and what may or may not happen there. I'll use blockdiag so hopefully the pictures become a little clearer. I definitely get lost on the ascii art | 13:51 |
| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, great so it allows to remove the dirty formatting in get_all_firewall_routers in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/440976/1/neutron_fwaas/db/firewall/firewall_router_insertion_db.py | 13:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: I keep thinking of operators defining a limit on a sub tree, then the parent of the subtree handing out quota to their children | 13:52 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: that assumes that you can't allocate a resource in the parent | 13:52 |
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| sdague | honestly, that's a scenario that I'll list, but I'm going to call it "Make Chet Sad" quotas | 13:53 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: im not seeing the connection w/ whatever that code is doing but if you say so :) | 13:53 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: no, no I assume you can allocate resources there, thats fine | 13:53 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: ok, but then you have to always go up the hierachy to check quota | 13:54 |
| sdague | let me draw things, you can yell at me after pictures | 13:54 |
| sdague | plus, need breakfast | 13:54 |
| dstanek | sdague: the other doc sounds great | 13:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: I think its easier than that though | 13:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: consider A with children B and C | 13:55 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: if you don't have pictures, I'm going to ignore you :) | 13:55 |
| sdague | other doc, other doc | 13:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: yeah, I think the pictures are in my spec for this | 13:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | but I over complicated it, obviously | 13:55 |
| dstanek | johnthetubaguy: my thought is for your A -> B/C example that keystone would have to return limits for all three | 13:57 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so there is one limit, and you always have to count resources for A, B and C, if you create anything in A, B or C | 13:57 |
| dstanek | in the general case it would have to return limits (if any) for the project and all siblings - plus the nearest parent with a limit as long as it doesn't cross a reseller boundary | 13:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | maybe thats the same thing | 13:57 |
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| dstanek | technically you don't need to siblings to make the go/no go decision, but i was thinking in terms of better messaging and/or the ability to over promise | 13:59 |
| dstanek | other systems i've used have had ranking and related features. | 14:00 |
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| dstanek | so as a first pass we probably won't need siblings | 14:00 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, thx | 14:07 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: dstanek: tried to draw out my idea here: https://github.com/JohnGarbutt/quota_ideas/blob/master/idea.py | 14:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | naturally its more complicated than it seemed in my head | 14:18 |
| dstanek | johnthetubaguy: not sure i understand the datastructure used there | 14:21 |
| dstanek | johnthetubaguy: also how does endpoint play a part in this? | 14:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: this is per endpoint, so I am thinking Nova side, we just get the limits that apply to that Nova endpoint | 14:21 |
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| openstackgerrit | Lance Bragstad proposed openstack/governance master: Update keystone goals for running in apache https://review.openstack.org/440840 | 14:24 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: the idea is you have to count the resources in a particular scope, when checking the limit | 14:24 |
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| dstanek | johnthetubaguy: so give 3 different limts set by nova i'm assuming that we'll always want to return all of them for a project and not just one in particular. is that true? | 14:35 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: I think we already return all, each one has a default | 14:36 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: I have more ideas cooking, will push in a sec | 14:36 |
| dstanek | and each endpoint would have values set for all defined limits? | 14:36 |
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| dstanek | so if you add a new region you would have to supply limits at that point | 14:37 |
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| dstanek | or would you have limits at the service level (nova says 10 vCPU per project) and have endpoints override (this endpoint only allows 8 since it have less hardware) and then override at the project level | 14:44 |
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| dstanek | i'm not familiar with the existing usecases | 14:44 |
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| openstackgerrit | Felipe Reyes proposed openstack/governance master: Add ceph-proxy charm https://review.openstack.org/441155 | 14:46 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: today its always per nova-api service that you set limits | 14:59 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: thats a fine starting point really | 14:59 |
| dstanek | so nova limits with project overrides? | 15:00 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: does this help? https://github.com/JohnGarbutt/quota_ideas/blob/master/idea.py | 15:05 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: I am adding more comments, its a bit opaque | 15:10 |
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| dstanek | jamesmcarthur: here is what i was thinking https://gist.github.com/dstanek/a8a343a3ab5ad4ad0862e3e1be332173 | 15:20 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: sdague: this script attempts to print out the idea in my brain: https://github.com/JohnGarbutt/quota_ideas/blob/master/idea.py | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | its always twice as complicated as it first seems | 15:26 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: honestly, I have a hard time not stack overflowing with these things in code | 15:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: if you run the script it gives text, let me get that somewhere | 15:27 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: dstanek: https://gist.github.com/JohnGarbutt/677154f6cad51f5f2a948b3aefa0621f | 15:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | hang out, thats un readable | 15:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | one sec | 15:28 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: not sure if this makes any sense, but the idea is a flow where operator sets default quota, then sets overrides, and nova does boot instance check: https://gist.github.com/JohnGarbutt/677154f6cad51f5f2a948b3aefa0621f | 15:31 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Update email for Cinder PTL https://review.openstack.org/441200 | 16:11 |
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| dims | smcginnis : i was just thinking that folks should have non-work alternate email address(es) :) | 16:12 |
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| smcginnis | dims: ;) | 16:15 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: https://review.openstack.org/441203 is starting to do the block diag thing | 16:16 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: it makes a ton more sense once you do the tox on it, once there is a draft build, I'll point you at it | 16:39 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/03/441203/2/check/gate-keystone-specs-docs-ubuntu-xenial/f4c0f1f//doc/build/html/specs/keystone/backlog/hierarchical-quota-scenarios.html | 17:08 |
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| dstanek | sdague: i did a real quick brain dump earlier about what i first thought when quotes came up at PTG https://gist.github.com/dstanek/a8a343a3ab5ad4ad0862e3e1be332173 | 17:10 |
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| sdague | dstanek: cool | 17:12 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: sweet | 17:19 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: does this one make any sense: https://gist.github.com/JohnGarbutt/677154f6cad51f5f2a948b3aefa0621f | 17:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: basically I flattened the checks, I think | 17:20 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: I'm having a hard time understanding count scope | 17:27 |
| dstanek | johnthetubaguy: don't you need to keep the hierarchy? | 17:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: I don't think we need it, when you flatten it | 17:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: ah, yeah | 17:28 |
| dstanek | sdague: i think that's just the list of things that have the same limits | 17:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | no... | 17:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | its different | 17:28 |
| dstanek | ok, then i don't get it either :-) | 17:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | so you need to count the resources | 17:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | the resources are assocaited with a project_id | 17:28 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so when counting resources I pass in a list of project_ids | 17:29 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so I filter the list of all resources in the system by the given list of project_ids | 17:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | to do the count | 17:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | so that limit applies to the sum of all resource usage, across the list of "scopes" | 17:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: now I forgot removing the user, scope can get flattened to just project_ids, oops | 17:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | does that make more or less sense now? | 17:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | probably less | 17:30 |
| dstanek | what project ids are you passing it? | 17:31 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: also, I do not understand at all why count scope would be different between resources | 17:31 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: it's not clicking for me honestly, this is why I went to the block diag model. | 17:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: that bit was a bit odd, it just came out of the use case I chose, which is probably bogus | 17:32 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: I think where you have 0, I was having -1 | 17:32 |
| dstanek | i was thinking that when a services is asked for a resource in a given project that it would just ask keystone for limits related to that project | 17:32 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: I don't understand how -1 is consistent | 17:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: but thats too much along the no-over commit spectrum I think | 17:33 |
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| sdague | because it means you allow overbooking | 17:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: so lets look at your diagram for A, with B, C and D | 17:33 |
| sdague | yep | 17:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | lets say 10, and all -1 | 17:34 |
| sdague | ok | 17:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | for me that gives us a limit check for 10, but we always have to count all resources in A, B, C and D | 17:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | so a single check, no matter if you create something in A, B, C or D | 17:34 |
| sdague | that means to compute quota violations you have to count all siblings at every level | 17:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: yes | 17:34 |
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| johnthetubaguy | thats what my scope thing was trying to represent | 17:35 |
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| sdague | so, when a division is represented | 17:35 |
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| sdague | so A has 20 children, and each child there has 20 children | 17:35 |
| sdague | then you need 400 values for every quota check | 17:36 |
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| johnthetubaguy | well, we would check resources for 400 projects, yes | 17:36 |
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| sdague | that seems like it's going to send you down a really wonky path | 17:37 |
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| johnthetubaguy | maybe thats a computationally stupid default, but as an operator its the behaviour I think I want | 17:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | so, lets take this one level on, it gets a bit less wonky... | 17:38 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so I have A=10, but I set B=5 | 17:38 |
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| johnthetubaguy | that means when I do anything in B, C or D, I have to check if we are over 5 | 17:38 |
| johnthetubaguy | if I do anything in A, I just check project A to see if there is more than 5 | 17:39 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: this is why the limits set behavior and the quotas enforce behavior need to be in the same library | 17:39 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: does it? | 17:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: it does the way I was seeing the world, which is maybe wonkey | 17:40 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: so you are saying that A=10, B=10, no allocation of resources | 17:40 |
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| sdague | trying to allocate a resource in A is an overquota error? | 17:40 |
| johnthetubaguy | yes | 17:40 |
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| johnthetubaguy | the use case here is that... | 17:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | the limit on A is set by the global operator | 17:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | A choses to delegate what it was given for its sub tree to some of its children | 17:41 |
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| sdague | and is only allowed to work with what's left? | 17:42 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: yes | 17:42 |
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| lbragstad | so A can *only* give out a max of 10 things to it's children | 17:42 |
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| johnthetubaguy | the operator only gave it 10, for it, and all its children | 17:42 |
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| johnthetubaguy | (in my head) | 17:42 |
| sdague | ok, so assuming that A gets to carve out it's own quota and limits how do you you deal with the following situation | 17:42 |
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| sdague | site admin allocates A, quota 10 | 17:43 |
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| sdague | A is self admin | 17:43 |
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| lbragstad | ugh | 17:43 |
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| * johnthetubaguy uh, oh | 17:43 | |
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| sdague | A spins up 5 things | 17:43 |
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| sdague | A creates child project B | 17:43 |
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| sdague | A gives B limit 10 | 17:43 |
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| sdague | which is can do, because limit changes don't check allocations | 17:43 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so that limit application would require --force in Nova today | 17:44 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: sure, but we're moving limits out | 17:44 |
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| lbragstad | so that would technically allow for overbooking, right? | 17:44 |
| sdague | and you definitely can't go check allocations when adjusting limits | 17:44 |
| sdague | lbragstad: well, that's the question | 17:44 |
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| lbragstad | hmm | 17:44 |
| sdague | that's why overbooking isn't really a useful word here, because there are tons of subtle behaviors that you might call overbooking | 17:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, you would be overquota until the resources are delete I guess, yeah | 17:45 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague : +1 for overbooking not really describing the situation properly here | 17:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | but for me, the delegated quota control is the use case that matters, but I could be getting the wrong end of the stick | 17:45 |
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| lbragstad | so - this might be a crazy bad idea | 17:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: its a good point though, thats nasty, I hadn't thought about that one | 17:46 |
| sdague | this is why I want the blockdiags of the different things, because I think that there are lots of edges here | 17:46 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: in my world, I would be allowing B to build its 10, and A would be erroring with overquota, but thats maybe what we want... | 17:46 |
| lbragstad | but what if we kept limit updates in keystone, but only make it something that the service can do? then we have the limit update go through the service since it can calculate and apply usage to the limit update? | 17:46 |
| sdague | let me start writing up Garbut Model | 17:47 |
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| johnthetubaguy | lbragstad: but we loose the operator gain of setting it centrally | 17:47 |
| lbragstad | johnthetubaguy what we we setting? | 17:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | lbragstad: operator configuring the limits centrally I mean | 17:48 |
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| lbragstad | johnthetubaguy as an operator don't I want to say "I'm going to give project A a limit of 20 'things'" | 17:48 |
| lbragstad | if those 'things' are owned by nova - would it make sense for the operator to talk to nova about that then? | 17:49 |
| sdague | lbragstad: well, the point was not to do that | 17:49 |
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| lbragstad | sdague ah | 17:49 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: +1 | 17:49 |
| sdague | lbragstad: that's what we have today | 17:49 |
| lbragstad | sdague johnthetubaguy sorry - i must have missed those bits | 17:49 |
| johnthetubaguy | if you look at horizon, thats the model people want really | 17:49 |
| sdague | and the net of it is we get all kinds of different modeling and behavior here | 17:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | lbragstad: I was totally originally thinking the same as you though, until I did that certified administror thingy | 17:50 |
| lbragstad | right | 17:50 |
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| lbragstad | yeah - i totally thought that would help in figuring out the usage versus limit problem | 17:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | there do appear to be almost infinite ways of slicing this one | 17:51 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: FWIW, I think why you are describing in the diagrams the current cinder model (at least I think thats how I understood it) | 17:51 |
| dstanek | johnthetubaguy: if your example the data that is coming back from keystone? | 17:51 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: I thought the cinder model is kind of the garbutt model | 17:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: yeah, for the context with project_id keystone gives me that dict back | 17:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: oh... its possible | 17:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: I think they default to 0 rather than -1, at least thats how I remembered it | 17:52 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: maybe, I don't know | 17:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | anyways, its probably good to have both options down, so we can discard one of them, based on the use cases / crazy behaviours | 17:53 |
| dstanek | johnthetubaguy: does that mean that keystone figures our the hierarchy values? | 17:53 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: yeah, based on whats set, keystone figures out what limit checks the service needs | 17:53 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: I guess I skipped that step there, I included example REST calls the operator makes to keystone in the code sample | 17:54 |
| dstanek | so that works if you must have explicit values set for each project in the hierarchy, but not if you want roll-up | 17:54 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: that is with the default of -1 set on all children, and the operator default project being set on all parent projects | 17:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: -1 means no need to count at that level | 17:55 |
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| johnthetubaguy | if -1 is a leaf node... | 17:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | oh man, this stuff gets so messy, in every corner | 17:56 |
| * lbragstad nods | 17:56 | |
| lbragstad | i think that's why this problem has been avoided for so long :-/ | 17:56 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: so I had another idea, with drop hierarch, and just do flat limits in the first version | 17:56 |
| johnthetubaguy | heh, can't even spell it properly | 17:56 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: right, so it is a reason I put flatland in my document | 17:56 |
| lbragstad | yeah - i'd be good with doing that in the initial version | 17:57 |
| sdague | ok, so, I pushed another rev to ask the question there | 17:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: ah, cool | 17:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | lbragstad: I attempted a POC of the quota lib: https://github.com/JohnGarbutt/quota_ideas but its messy in there | 17:57 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: it will be easier to see if you run the block diag locally, but in the garbutt scenario at the end | 17:57 |
| sdague | I actually have no idea what you'd define the world to be in the default -1 scenario | 17:58 |
| lbragstad | johnthetubaguy aha - yeah I was digging through that a little bit earlier | 17:58 |
| dstanek | johnthetubaguy: but if you say -1 i'm assuming you want the parent's value. without returning the hierarchy all children with -1 will return the parent's value and that would be more than they should use | 17:58 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: no, I return please check the whole sub tree doesn't exceed the parent's value, i.e. do your count across all the children that are marked as -1 | 17:59 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: ok, fixed the syntax issue | 18:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: yeah, I have parent projects defaulting to some value, and all children defaulting to -1 (instead of 0) | 18:00 |
| sdague | but look at that final example question | 18:00 |
| dstanek | johnthetubaguy: the counting happens on the service side though right? | 18:01 |
| sdague | in the A B C D tree | 18:01 |
| dstanek | for example, line 58 in https://gist.github.com/dstanek/a8a343a3ab5ad4ad0862e3e1be332173 - how does that get implemented in a flat way? | 18:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: yes, the count functions are registered with the library | 18:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: which line should I be looking at? | 18:01 |
| sdague | 212 | 18:01 |
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| sdague | what is the impact on D and B with that command | 18:02 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: so thats given all the resources to C, I think | 18:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: so that means A, B, D are not allowed anything | 18:03 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: so D would have limits = -1 | 18:04 |
| sdague | and be told "over quota" on all actions? | 18:04 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: .... yes, I guess so | 18:04 |
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| sdague | and junior admin gets the ticket, and logs into the system, and does what to resolve it? | 18:05 |
| sdague | or even understand the state of the world | 18:06 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: yeah, thats a good reason why its broken | 18:06 |
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| sdague | because, I am quite concerned with "you are over quota" without a clear way to increase the quota | 18:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, thats hard to debug | 18:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | and reason about | 18:07 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: not sure I understand the case on your line 58, just thinking it though | 18:08 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: ok, I'm just going to stop exploring the Garbutt Model then, and leave the open question | 18:09 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: yeah, I think you convinced me on defaulting to 0 | 18:09 |
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| dstanek | johnthetubaguy: it A (limit 10) -> B (nothing set) -> C (limit 4) | 18:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: is this the overcommit case? | 18:10 |
| dstanek | you have to know both 10 and 4 on the usage side to calculate correct | 18:10 |
| sdague | also, this is really really why I wanted us to write all these models down and ask questions. Because I think that in working memory everyone had an idea and some happy path behavior, but hadn't thought through | 18:10 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: +1 getting this written down | 18:10 |
| sdague | dstanek: you need to express more rules | 18:10 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I am missing some rules | 18:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | B = 0 or B= -1? | 18:11 |
| sdague | dstanek: because the Garbutt model is the only ruleset we wrote down so far that would let us get there | 18:11 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah | 18:11 |
| dstanek | johnthetubaguy: not exactly. simple example is A (limit 10) has two children B and C with B and C not having explicit limits | 18:11 |
| sdague | and I think we just crossed it off the list | 18:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | dstanek: we are saying the children have 0 quota by default here | 18:11 |
| sdague | dstanek: right, so the thing i was calling Strict Hierarchy Default Closed | 18:12 |
| sdague | wouldn't let you set that | 18:12 |
| sdague | Update C limit 4 would fail, because unset is effective 0 | 18:12 |
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| dstanek | sdague: that's what i was asking earlier. will everything have to have an explicit limit for every project? | 18:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah... so there is another rule set here | 18:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | dang it | 18:13 |
| sdague | dstanek: I think we are too early to ask that question | 18:13 |
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| sdague | dstanek: we need to write out what the possible models here that we are considering | 18:13 |
| sdague | and walk through their implications | 18:13 |
| dstanek | that's why i brought the case of not setting it. | 18:13 |
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| dstanek | sdague: when you say models what are you refering to? | 18:14 |
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| sdague | dstanek: right, so in SHDC, once you set a limit on a parent (including defaults being set) you have to give every child specific grants, in descending order | 18:14 |
| sdague | dstanek: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/441203 | 18:14 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I guess its the outcome of line 76 in here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/441203/4/specs/keystone/backlog/hierarchical-quota-scenarios.rst | 18:15 |
| sdague | sorry, I linked that earlier | 18:15 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: right | 18:15 |
| dstanek | i probably missed it while in a meeting | 18:15 |
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| sdague | dstanek: this is the follow on document of different quota models | 18:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think you remove the rule of the child needing more quota than its parent | 18:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | which is interesting | 18:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: so where I failed, I think, was only one one layer of hierarchy deep, mine falls apart when you got more than two deep really | 18:17 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: yeh, you definitely need to model with 2+ layers | 18:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | I kept thinking they are all sub trees, but thats nonsense | 18:17 |
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| alexismonville | the openstack team survey for FY17Q4 is ready to collect your inputs https://goo.gl/forms/S4SmLxq9hpzCbkpn1 | 18:18 |
| alexismonville | ooopppps... bad channel | 18:18 |
| alexismonville | sorry for that | 18:18 |
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| sdague | johnthetubaguy: yeh, especially as one of the key use cases is to make a project for a division, and let them self manage creating new projects to their hearts content. | 18:19 |
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| sdague | I guess we could just mandate that all organizations get rid of management hierarchies | 18:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: that works for me :) | 18:20 |
| * johnthetubaguy giggles | 18:20 | |
| sdague | smcginnis: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/03/441203/5/check/gate-keystone-specs-docs-ubuntu-xenial/7a38237//doc/build/html/specs/keystone/backlog/hierarchical-quota-scenarios.html is the document we're currently just trying to flesh out | 18:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I was thinking consider each sub tree one layer deep recursively, but that broke down really badly | 18:21 |
| smcginnis | If I rememeber right (big if) child projects get -1 and any can consume up to the parent quota in Cinder. | 18:21 |
| smcginnis | Ooh, pictures. | 18:21 |
| lbragstad | smcginnis that's how it works today | 18:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah, so I totally missed that | 18:21 |
| lbragstad | ? | 18:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | I thought it defaulted to 0 | 18:21 |
| dstanek | sdague: so i think i was describing my take on the Garbutt model | 18:21 |
| sdague | smcginnis: so... it's the Garbutt Model? | 18:22 |
| sdague | in which case, how do you handle the open question listed in there? | 18:22 |
| * smcginnis is reading through | 18:22 | |
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| sdague | smcginnis: just for reference, these are just trying to express rulesets and see where their edge conditions are | 18:23 |
| smcginnis | ack | 18:23 |
| sdague | towards eventually figuring out which ruleset(s) would be supported | 18:23 |
| smcginnis | Good exercise | 18:23 |
| smcginnis | I'm not sure we've captured this elsewhere. | 18:23 |
| smcginnis | Which would have really helped now to go back through and evaluate where we are at. | 18:24 |
| lbragstad | so in the Garbutt Model, if I set the limit of C to something that effectively takes the local limit from A, B is showing a local limit of 0? | 18:24 |
| dstanek | sdague: does -1 mean us up as much as a parent allows? | 18:24 |
| sdague | smcginnis: yeh, during the PTG I basically realized "If I don't have pictures and labels, I'm lost" | 18:24 |
| sdague | dstanek: yes | 18:25 |
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| lbragstad | if we didn't have a common diagram we'd all be whiteboarding this individually anyway | 18:25 |
| sdague | it means fail open vs. fail closed | 18:25 |
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| johnthetubaguy | smcginnis: is the current behaviour different to this one: http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/cinder-specs/specs/liberty/cinder-nested-quota-driver.html | 18:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | that said it defaults to 0, but I guess it maybe allows -1 as an override? | 18:26 |
| smcginnis | So I think what cinder has now is the Strict Hierarchy Default Closed model, with the exception of the default being -1 instead of 0. | 18:26 |
| smcginnis | johnthetubaguy: I thought it was -1. | 18:26 |
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| smcginnis | johnthetubaguy: The 'allocated' amount defaults to 0. | 18:28 |
| sdague | ok, need lunch, will be back in a bit | 18:28 |
| dstanek | i'm not completely grokking the idea of local limits. | 18:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | it could be, its just the spec is different | 18:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I should go now really | 18:28 |
| lbragstad | i think local limit is dedicated to that specific node | 18:28 |
| smcginnis | johnthetubaguy: Wouldn't be the first time our spec doesn't match what went in. :/ | 18:28 |
| sdague | dstanek: the local limit thing is that by giving a child limit allocation, it removes from yours | 18:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: thanks for your doc though, thats a big help | 18:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | smcginnis: true | 18:28 |
| lbragstad | so it should be used as a tool to not have *all* children consume everything | 18:28 |
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| lbragstad | aha - right... so if the local limit of A is 10 and limit for C is updated to 10, the local limits for both A and B are set to 0 | 18:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah | 18:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | so I guess that is the model I was thinking about | 18:29 |
| sdague | lbragstad: right, but it does put D in a weird place | 18:30 |
| sdague | to figure out how to get out of it | 18:30 |
| lbragstad | right | 18:30 |
| dstanek | sdague: ok, then my model is similar to Garbutt, but less strict | 18:30 |
| lbragstad | i think we're making progress understand the parent child relationship, but siblings is totally new | 18:30 |
| lbragstad | understanding* | 18:30 |
| sdague | dstanek: ok, how about you add a stanek model to the doc. Just let me know if you do so I don't accidentally overwrite | 18:31 |
| sdague | the blockdiag is pretty easy markup | 18:31 |
| dstanek | sdague: cool will do | 18:31 |
| lbragstad | alright - breaking for lunch and going to take care of a couple errands | 18:33 |
| dstanek | lbragstad: you're not supposed to be working anymore today :P | 18:33 |
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| lbragstad | dstanek neither are you! | 18:52 |
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| dstanek | lbragstad: sick kid here so i can't really leave the house anyway | 18:55 |
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| dstanek | sdague: i think i accurately captured my thoughts. is it safe to push the spec? | 19:18 |
| sdague | dstanek: go for it | 19:19 |
| sdague | I'll make sure to update my local copy to not clobber | 19:19 |
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| dstanek | i've added the 'Freedom Model' because nobody hates freedom | 19:22 |
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| sdague | oh dear :) | 19:25 |
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| dstanek | sdague: feel free to rename | 19:26 |
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| sdague | dstanek: ok, looking at your example | 19:37 |
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| sdague | so, here is the follow on question about how would we resolve this | 19:38 |
| sdague | C allocates 5 | 19:38 |
| sdague | E allocates 5 | 19:38 |
| sdague | F tries to allocate 1, is told they are over quota, even though they've not allocated anything | 19:39 |
| sdague | files a ticket to get quota | 19:39 |
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| sdague | what does the admin do? | 19:40 |
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| sdague | maybe I'll just put the questions into the document | 19:41 |
| dstanek | the admin would need to up the limit somewhere since the quotes | 19:41 |
| dstanek | another option would be to say that quotas that are explicitly set are independent from thier parent, but that seems like it would be harder to understand | 19:42 |
| dstanek | sdague: that's the same issue you'd have in the Garbutt model's first example right? | 19:43 |
| jungleboyj | dstanek: You don't want to make the quotas that are explicitly set independent from the parent. Then it isn't hierarchical. | 19:43 |
| dstanek | jungleboyj: yep, another reason not to do that | 19:43 |
| sdague | dstanek: yeh, so when computing usage, if we put unlimited in anywhere then we need to basically query and count everything in the tree | 19:43 |
| jungleboyj | :-) I was team lead for the guy who tired to get this in place so I know a little. | 19:44 |
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| sdague | dstanek: the other concern I have with ever defaulting to unlimitted, is you bring a new service/resource into play, and you need to go make a limit update to every project | 19:44 |
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| sdague | but maybe, that shouldn't be a huge concern | 19:45 |
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| dstanek | sdague: that where that additional global rules thought came in | 19:46 |
| dstanek | it would be used in the absence of finding any explicit limit upwards in teh tree | 19:47 |
| sdague | dstanek: ok, right, so this really continues to follow the resource default limit from the unified limits spec | 19:47 |
| sdague | the terminology shifted a little be there in your section, so that wasn't clear to me | 19:48 |
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| sdague | heh | 19:55 |
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| sdague | ok, well my brain is fully burnt on all of this today, but at least I think we're making some progress in writing ideas down. | 19:55 |
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| jungleboyj | sdague: If you need help on the Hiearchical Quota stuff in the future, let me know and I will see if I can dig up some knowledge. | 20:35 |
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| sdague | jungleboyj: well, right now, just trying to write down stuff that came from the PTG | 20:36 |
| sdague | and make sure we're all talking about the same things | 20:37 |
| jungleboyj | sdague: Ok. Sounds good. | 20:37 |
| sdague | because things like overbooking got used a lot | 20:37 |
| sdague | but people were having it mean different things | 20:37 |
| jungleboyj | sdague: That is a common problem for OpenStack. We have that problem in Cinder frequently as each company seems to have slightly different terminology for things. | 20:38 |
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| jungleboyj | And then we have the same challenge across OpenStack projects. :-( | 20:38 |
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| sdague | jungleboyj: yep, that's why I started making blockdiag diagrams | 21:28 |
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| openstackgerrit | Armando Migliaccio proposed openstack/governance master: Retire networking-ofagent https://review.openstack.org/441488 | 21:42 |
| jungleboyj | sdague: cool. Getting stuff like that easier to understand is a good thing. | 21:43 |
| sdague | jungleboyj: ++ | 21:44 |
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| jungleboyj | Thanks for working on it. | 21:47 |
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