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| ttx | notmyname: not yet, but it's a good idea to add one. I'll try to collect them and push one | 07:48 |
|---|---|---|
| notmyname | ttx: awesome, thanks :-) | 07:48 |
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| nishaYadav | hey! | 08:56 |
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| gitudaniel | Hello everyone, I'm a software development neophyte getting started on openstack | 09:30 |
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| mtreinish | jroll, johnthetubaguy, stevemar: how does this look for the steps to split out a plugin: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tempest-separate-plugin | 16:34 |
| mtreinish | I tested the local stuff | 16:34 |
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| mtreinish | clarkb: ^^^ did I get the project-config side right? It's been a bit since I had to do that | 16:35 |
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| clarkb | mtreinish: the infra manual creators doc should be up to date so that loosk fine | 16:37 |
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| mtreinish | ok, cool | 16:37 |
| jroll | mtreinish: I wasn't planning on #2, but that's actually super helpful, thanks! | 16:38 |
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| jroll | was also wondering how I would cut things over | 16:38 |
| jroll | I like | 16:38 |
| mtreinish | jroll: well it's too late for #2 for you. You've already got the repo in gerrit so you can't rewrite the history now | 16:39 |
| mtreinish | if you did #2 and did a git review, it would generate a patch for everything in the history :) | 16:39 |
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| jroll | mtreinish: oh, because we did new repo instead of a copy, right | 16:40 |
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| mtreinish | yep | 16:41 |
| jroll | oh well :) | 16:41 |
| jroll | thanks | 16:41 |
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| stevemar | mtreinish: #6 -- i'm assuming you mean a github account/repo? | 16:51 |
| stevemar | why not just to #7 right away? | 16:52 |
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| mtreinish | stevemar: it doesn't have to be hosted on github, just somewhere that can be cloned into gerrit | 16:52 |
| mtreinish | it's a prereq for #7 at: http://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/creators.html#add-the-project-to-the-master-projects-list #3 | 16:53 |
| mtreinish | the "upstream" field | 16:53 |
| stevemar | mtreinish: ah, "If you have a lot of history to import, please use the upstream field instead of creating a repository and then pushing the patches one at a time. " | 16:54 |
| stevemar | okay, i'm good | 16:54 |
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| openstackgerrit | Flavio Percoco proposed openstack/governance: Amend new-language reference document https://review.openstack.org/418487 | 16:59 |
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| preilly | Has anybody seen https://www.openstack.org/summit/barcelona-2016/summit-schedule/speakers/3659 around? | 19:44 |
| preilly | aka Martin Klein from SAP. | 19:45 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Add extra-atc nomination for Trove https://review.openstack.org/414764 | 20:15 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Reference doc for new language additions https://review.openstack.org/398875 | 20:17 |
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| jroll | thingee: it's more... I don't see the point in creating overhead of using extra-atcs and "specially approved" docs.o.o access for unofficial projects, when project teams need to spend the time to validate those, so why not just make them part of the project team itself (same effort, same results) | 21:03 |
| thingee | continuing discussion from tc meeting flaper87 ttx fungi sdague EmilienM dtroyer stevemar mordred dhellmann I think actually writing something up to address things for #3 would be good. | 21:04 |
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| thingee | dims^ | 21:04 |
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| persia | Some project teams have historically been more welcoming than others. | 21:04 |
| thingee | mtreinish ^ | 21:05 |
| dims | o/ | 21:05 |
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| mtreinish | thingee: heh | 21:05 |
| thingee | persia sure | 21:06 |
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| fungi | yeah, a lot of the concern seems to be that neutron doesn't consider driver developers, even for supported drivers, to be part of their team, and whether the tc can (or even should?) do anything to "fix" that | 21:06 |
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| fungi | i still feel strongly that driver support is a "states" (team-level) choice, and the "national" (tc-level) governance should keep their noses out of it | 21:07 |
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| fungi | defining a refugee program for driver authors who feel they're mistreated or ignored by their consuming projects doesn't feel like the right solution | 21:08 |
| persia | It is not only neutron, although it is some neutron | 21:08 |
| jroll | from what I can tell, it's more that neutron doesn't have the time to validate hundreds of drivers | 21:08 |
| jbryce | i think that dhellmann and flaper87 are both trying to bring in the external view though | 21:08 |
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| jroll | (fair point) | 21:08 |
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| thingee | jroll to be clear, cinder has more driver than neutron, and doesn't have a problem. that's not excuse. | 21:09 |
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| jroll | O_o | 21:09 |
| dims | fungi : reminds me of Union territories we have in India (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_territory) | 21:09 |
| dtroyer | That external view doesn't seem to differentiate between OpenStack projects, it's about "OpenStack". To fungi's point, that makes it a national issue whether we liek it or not. | 21:09 |
| jbryce | we actually do need drivers and the broad support across products has historically been a strong selling point for users | 21:09 |
| thingee | jroll this opposition stems from something else which I don't really want to talk about here | 21:09 |
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| fungi | dims: interesting analogy! | 21:10 |
| persia | A team not having time for validation may be a signal that the team is not asking the folk whose work is to be validated for help with valudation. | 21:10 |
| jroll | thingee: interesting | 21:10 |
| sdague | I think there is a lot of history on the neutron side, including a lot of issues with drivers preventing neutron from having a common user facing API, so don't think we should dismiss those team concerns out of hand | 21:10 |
| thingee | sdague exactly | 21:11 |
| jbryce | in order to provide a well functioning, well integrated driver (however we define that—full spec implementation, CI reporting), do we expect a company to be fully involved in more openstack development work than just that integration piece? | 21:11 |
| fungi | i still don't know if we have an actual problem getting vendors to write drivers for their products. encouraging people to write drivers in the same open fashion we write other official openstack projects seems like a good thing. somehow crediting any driver authors for their work feels more like we're trying to generalize for a single case | 21:12 |
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| thingee | jbryce in my experience, driver maintainers mainly contribute to an openstack project because they want to add a feature to call back to their product, or fix a bug because their customer is using openstack with their product and reported the problem to them | 21:12 |
| dtroyer | jbryce: we want to encourage that, and to those of us looking from across the room, those vendors that do not participate more fully do not seem to stick around as long… | 21:12 |
| jbryce | and i think that there are multiple valid answers to that question, but right now we have a range of answers across different projects that can be difficult for companies to understand what the expectations and requirements are, and how stable those expectations and requirements will be | 21:12 |
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| fungi | and the extremely fuzzy definition as to what constitutes a "driver" makes it a pretty vague choice | 21:13 |
| persia | jbryce: I think the question isn't just whether organisations should contribute more widely, but whether organisations consider themselves to be contributing or deriving. I've spoken with a number of organisations who view "the integration piece" as a necessary work, without any interest in even discussing roadmap for the related project, or working anywhere except against vendor trees on downstream distributions. | 21:14 |
| fungi | granted, i hope that the tc would be aware enough that they would reject any driver-team applications for things that aren't really supporting backends for official services and are merely trying to explain themselves as being such | 21:14 |
| dtroyer | fungi: the old "we'll know it when we see it" definition | 21:15 |
| mtreinish | fungi: heh, no aws nova driver? :) | 21:15 |
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| fungi | but there remains the question as to whether we would, under the current driver-teams plan, accept driver teams whose work was kicked out of official projects for justifiable reasons | 21:16 |
| dtroyer | mtreinish: that's the new back-end for the ec2-api? | 21:16 |
| fungi | mtreinish: it's been argued that there are no nova "drivers" ;) | 21:16 |
| dtroyer | fungi: I would hope we see that too. | 21:16 |
| ttx | oh look, a continuation discussion | 21:16 |
| fungi | ttx: and in an appropriate venue! | 21:17 |
| mtreinish | dtroyer: oh I like that ec2-api -> nova -> aws :) | 21:17 |
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| fungi | anyway, a big reason i'm favoring the "discoverability first, governance later" approach is that i have a strong suspicion many (enough to make the rest an exception we can handle in a one-off fashion) driver authors sought atc status based on a misunderstanding as to what benefits that offers and what responsibilities that would entail | 21:19 |
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| persia | fungi: Also consider when organisations misunderstand ATC, such that even when the individual concerned understands the model, they may have skewed incentives of various sorts (e.g. bonuses, time limits, etc.) | 21:21 |
| jbryce | fungi: i think discoverability is part of it, but i have heard complaints about the differences and inconsistencies between projects and also the changes over time in how a single projects handle drivers. it just makes it more difficult and confusing for companies to understand what they’re supposed to be doing | 21:22 |
| persia | (not that this necessarily influences governance, but it ought at least influence documentation and education) | 21:22 |
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| ttx | jbryce: I don't think the proposals on the table make it a lot better or a lot worse | 21:22 |
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| jbryce | what dtroyer said about the external view being that they are trying to create “openstack” support for their product | 21:22 |
| fungi | jbryce: understandable. and that's probably something i would propose tackling differently openstack-wide | 21:22 |
| fungi | i don't think the driver-teams proposal does anything to add consistency between different services and how they handle driver support | 21:23 |
| ttx | jbryce: although arguably having all driver teams under TC's oversight would help (although I'm not 100% convinced driver teams would accept that oversight) | 21:23 |
| jbryce | i absolutely think we need to fix discoverability, and to me, that is as much a user issue as it is a vendor/company/driver dev issue. that one matters to everyone it hink | 21:23 |
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| dims | they would apply only if they wish to accept oversight.. right? | 21:24 |
| jbryce | ttx, fungi: agreed that the existing proposals don’t necessarily fix the consistency issue | 21:24 |
| fungi | dims: assuming they understand what they're asking for | 21:24 |
| persia | dims: Depends on their understanding of oversight, the source of their incentives to be "part of openstack", etc. | 21:24 |
| ttx | dims: they would need to understand that. The two way street | 21:24 |
| dims | right | 21:24 |
| dims | for all 3 of your comment :) | 21:25 |
| ttx | jbryce: but yes we need to address it! | 21:25 |
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| jbryce | ttx: yeah that’s basically what i’m saying. i want to fix discoverability asap but i don’t think it addresses some key issues even if some people may be less squeaky after that | 21:26 |
| persia | Development within openstack is good in many ways, and we have lots of lovely tools, but the way that things are done can be especially frustrating for traditional product managers who must ship code named in certain ways and carrying certain authenticity marks by certain deadlines. If nothing else, there's no good way to ensure that things *happen* except if one cuts off a corner and takes control (without oversight). Most of the folk in this | 21:26 |
| persia | conversation know that one can likely do better with close collaboration between all concerned parties, but we know each other more than we know the hypothetically described product manager with a job to lose. | 21:26 |
| fungi | for consistency concerns, the tc could attempt to broker some consensus across projects as to what standards they enforce for considering a driver supported, but before we can do that we probably need some sort of definition as to what a "driver" even is | 21:27 |
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| ttx | jbryce: and I'm also not totally convinced by fungi's argument that how to organize drivers is a states issue rather than a national issue | 21:27 |
| ttx | there is value in a common definition of "driver" | 21:27 |
| jbryce | and the result is that i know some of these cmpanies maintain separate drivers outside of any public repository, not because they believe they have to keep the code private, but just because they’re not clear on what the “right” way to do that work is anymore | 21:27 |
| persia | fungi: "Modular code that adapts a project to better interoperate with a specific technology outside that project"? | 21:28 |
| fungi | ttx: fwiw, i'm not convinced by many of my arguments either ;) | 21:28 |
| dims | haha | 21:28 |
| persia | jbryce: There are also groups that maintain things in non-openstack public places, for the same reasons. | 21:28 |
| fungi | persia: i'd be willing to work from that definition, thanks! | 21:29 |
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| dtroyer | persia: I'd love to add "using public interfaces/contracts" but know some of our drivers can't meet that today | 21:30 |
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| ttx | I'll have to jump off that discussion and go to bed, been a long day | 21:30 |
| fungi | have a good night, ttx! | 21:30 |
| persia | dtroyer: I think that's a reasonable goal, although we're not there yet. | 21:30 |
| ttx | but +1 on starting to fix discovery and build common expectations around drivers now | 21:31 |
| ttx | also fun fact; "common" is lurking on this channel. I hope (s)he doesn't have highlights | 21:31 |
| jbryce | ha | 21:31 |
| fungi | common is such a common word, i can't imagine they would | 21:32 |
| ttx | fungi: you mean common is such a common word, you can't imagine common would | 21:32 |
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| persia | :) | 21:32 |
| fungi | touché | 21:32 |
| jbryce | Modular code that adapts a project to better interoperate with a specific technology outside that project, using public interfaces/contracts where available | 21:32 |
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| persia | jbryce: My fear is that this might scare away the folk who don't have the public interfaces yet. I'm a big fan of first defining a consensus shared identity, and then asking the members of that identity if change is acceptable. If we predefine that we need public, some things might end up being "not drivers, really", which could frustrate things. | 21:34 |
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| persia | That said, I personally think that this would be a good future definition. | 21:34 |
| jbryce | i’ve gotta jump too for a little bit. i’m very willing (and even eager) to update the driver visibility on the marketplace or other places on www.o.o if we can come up with a good strategy for managing the data file they pull from | 21:34 |
| jbryce | persia: makes sense, was just free-brainstorming a combined definition with dtroyer’s addition = ) | 21:35 |
| dtroyer | It is not a new idea that some of these driver sets (Nova's hypervisors for example) know they want/need a public interface, it's just a huge pile-o-work to get there from here. Making it so everything that exists plus everything going forward meets that is what I think we should aim for | 21:35 |
| thingee | jbryce it's in progress. that's why we start the conversation at the last summit : https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/driverlog-validation | 21:36 |
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| dtroyer | "everything that exists" += "with that interface today" | 21:36 |
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| jbryce | thingee: yeah i’ve been following the etherpad. just wanted to make it clear i’m supportive of that and on board with exposing the results more broadly as it progresses | 21:38 |
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| fungi | dtroyer: so basically the more restrictive definition, with extra things we think should get there eventually grandfathered in? | 21:40 |
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| dtroyer | yup. I think we should encourage that progress | 21:41 |
| fungi | seems reasonable, though that does invariably create a double-standard where it's hard or frustrating for newcomers to meet stricter standards than the early adopters | 21:41 |
| dtroyer | it does. but that should be a ratchet so nobody goes backwards. how else to we make progress? | 21:42 |
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| fungi | no, i agree it's probably necessary, just worth keeping in mind the friction points that will generate | 21:47 |
| persia | If we have confirmation from the teams that don't yet meet that standard that they would like to meet that standard, then I remove my objections to starting with the more restrictive definition (with exceptions). If people actively disagree with the idea, I think that discussion should be separate from the foundational discussions. | 21:47 |
| * persia likes the ratchet idea, but not at the cost of a smaller initial group sharing the target identity | 21:48 | |
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| Maegner | hey can someone help-me on how do i actually get started working on a project? | 22:46 |
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| clarkb | Maegner: sure, anything specific you need help with or just big picture overview? maybe both? | 22:46 |
| Maegner | maybe both | 22:47 |
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| clarkb | to start openstack is large and diverse, probably easiest to find a project that interests you for some reason, then look through their bug list and grab something low hanging and/or ask that project on irc for specific guidance in what would be a good place to start | 22:48 |
| clarkb | with that done you will likely need a dev env. For many projects I think people run devstack locally to ensure everything keeps working. | 22:48 |
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| Maegner | clarkb im slightly lost in thw website trying to find projects | 22:49 |
| Maegner | and theyr respective bug list | 22:49 |
| clarkb | And with code/docs/whatever written you will need to push that up to Gerrit, details on that can be found at http://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/developers.html (includes other useful info too) | 22:49 |
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| clarkb | Maegner: there are many which probably doesn't help, but most will have their bug tracker at https://launchpad.net/projectname | 22:50 |
| clarkb | Maegner: https://www.openstack.org/software/project-navigator/ may be useful as far as digging through the projects and what they do | 22:51 |
| jbryce | Maegner: do you have a topic area you’re the most interested in? storage? virtualization? networking? containers? | 22:52 |
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| Maegner | clarkb thank you! | 22:52 |
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| Maegner | jbryce probably networking | 22:53 |
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| jbryce | Maegner: then you probably want to start with neutron. there are also other networking related projects like kuryr (implementing networking for containers through libnetwork and cni, etc), octavia (implementing load balancing as a service) and several others | 22:55 |
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| njohnston | Is there an IRC channel for the Tap-as-a-Service folks? | 22:56 |
| clarkb | njohnston: they have weekly meetings on irc at least http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Tap_as_a_Service_Meeting I am not finding a specific channel for them though | 22:58 |
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| Maegner | jbryce i'm going to try neutron the thing is that i'm still a lil bit of a noob so i'm not sure how i'll be able to help | 22:58 |
| njohnston | Thanks, clarkb, that matches my observations. I wasn't sure if there was tribal knowledge about a channel though. | 22:59 |
| njohnston | I'll drop by their meeting tonight | 22:59 |
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| Maegner | Can someone help me/guide me in how should i start working on neutron? | 23:42 |
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| clarkb | kevinbenton: ^ you wouldn't happen to know where a good palce to start is? | 23:44 |
| Maegner | There is really a lot of docomentation and ir dont really know where to start from | 23:48 |
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