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| jroll | mriedem: osic-cloud1 is having some networking issues with the mirror, I guess | 00:31 |
|---|---|---|
| mtreinish | mriedem: we pushed a new tempest release last week, but that isn't really used anywhere | 00:31 |
| jroll | between mirrors and afs | 00:31 |
| mtreinish | mriedem: it looks like a mirror issue: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/hacking | 00:31 |
| mriedem | yeah it's mirror issues | 00:31 |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: Jobs running on osic nodes are failing due to network issues with the mirror. We are temporarily disabling the cloud. | 02:47 | |
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| openstackgerrit | Steve Martinelli proposed openstack/governance: fix warnings when building docs https://review.openstack.org/384816 | 05:30 |
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| soren | Is there a sample database dump available somewhere that I can use to test a db migration? | 07:23 |
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| openstackgerrit | Andreas Jaeger proposed openstack/governance: Add irc-channel for charms https://review.openstack.org/384972 | 12:23 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance: Simplify governance website title https://review.openstack.org/382399 | 13:13 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Add deb-zaqar-ui https://review.openstack.org/379990 | 13:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Release os-apply-config with release:cycle-with-milestones https://review.openstack.org/380398 | 13:45 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Add deb-glare https://review.openstack.org/380780 | 13:45 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Create a generic linters tox environment https://review.openstack.org/381394 | 13:45 |
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| stevemar | dtroyer: if you're interested... https://review.openstack.org/#/c/366296/ | 14:10 |
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| openstackgerrit | Matthew Treinish proposed openstack/governance: Add "Contributing Is Our Currency" to principles doc https://review.openstack.org/382110 | 14:29 |
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| mtreinish | tonyb: heh, your governance linters stuff is a bit aggressive in what it checks: http://logs.openstack.org/10/382110/2/check/gate-governance-linters-ubuntu-xenial/6c8ae21/console.html | 15:42 |
| mtreinish | tonyb: we probably don't need to check yaml lint for packages installed in the venv | 15:42 |
| anteaya | ha ha ha | 15:43 |
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| nishaYadav | hey all o/ | 16:01 |
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| nishaYadav | I was going through this documentation, https://github.com/openstack/tripleo-quickstart which says, You will need a host machine (referred to as $VIRTHOST) with at least 16G of RAM, preferably 32G. Is there any other way to setup environment using tripleo-quickstart? | 16:01 |
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| nishaYadav | Or should I follow this link, http://docs.openstack.org/developer/tripleo-docs/environments/environments.html. It says, I need 3 VM with at least 4 GB of memory and 32 GB free memory in baremetal machine. | 16:08 |
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| nishaYadav | I have 8 GB RAM in my host machine | 16:09 |
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| anteaya | nishaYadav: you might find more tripleo developers in the #tripleo channel, I think it is #tripleo not #openstack-tripleo | 16:57 |
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| nishaYadav_ | anteaya, thanks a lot, will ask there | 16:59 |
| anteaya | welcome | 16:59 |
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| mmdurrant_ | I'm trying to semi-automate data entry on a few pages I'm testing the logic on - what's the easiest way to have an Action / Workflow auto-populated its fields? Using `initial` ? | 17:11 |
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| jdandrea | Has anyone experienced trouble installing in a venv without doing a manual 'pip install pbr' as a first step? http://paste.ofcode.org/3b3nHFcZMuPsJmVwWFvkRMA | 17:14 |
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| mmdurrant_ | Apologies if the question seems silly - didn't sleep well last night and brain is on the fritz. I also know a lot of folks are in planning meetings right now. | 17:14 |
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| clarkb | jdandrea: make sure you have a current virtualenv (and if not update pip and setuptools in the virtualenv first) | 17:16 |
| mmdurrant_ | jdandrea, if you install pbr>=1.8 as the first step, does it install from the same location without SSL errors? | 17:16 |
| mmdurrant_ | clarkb, I'm curious why you would suggest that. I don't agree or disagree, merely curious. | 17:16 |
| jdandrea | clarkb: You got it. To confirm, I'm using virtualenv 15.0.3, python 2.7.12, pip 8.1.2, wheel 0.30.0.a0, and setuptools 18.5. | 17:16 |
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| clarkb | mmdurrant_: beacuse historically pip and setuptools handling of ssl has been very poor. Newer pip *should* fix most of the issues that older pip and setuptools had | 17:17 |
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| mmdurrant_ | Thank you. :) | 17:17 |
| clarkb | mmdurrant_: and virtualenv bundles both pip and setuptools so a new virtualenv comes with new pip and new setuptools | 17:17 |
| jdandrea | mmdurrant_: Yes, no ssl errors. I filed this under virtualenv as well just in case ... https://github.com/pypa/virtualenv/issues/964 | 17:17 |
| clarkb | I guess it was mostly setuptools with bad ssl handling | 17:17 |
| clarkb | and pip trying to work with it | 17:17 |
| jdandrea | mmdurrant_ Check out my latest comment. :-o | 17:18 |
| mmdurrant_ | Right. | 17:18 |
| jdandrea | virtualenv 14.0.6 reportedly solved an SSL issue regarding certs. I'm on the latest so I figured ... :) | 17:18 |
| mmdurrant_ | Makes sense | 17:18 |
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| jdandrea | So installing pbr manually first is fine ... until I go to use tox. :( | 17:19 |
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| mmdurrant_ | jandrea: with existing tox env? | 17:19 |
| clarkb | ya I don't know why that would fail with new pip | 17:20 |
| clarkb | dstufft: ^ any idea of what is going on there? | 17:20 |
| mmdurrant_ | If his tox environment isn't being recreated, doesn't he still have the old stuff in `bin` or does that get recreated on every run? I was under the impression it stayed unless it had orders to do otherwise. | 17:21 |
| dstufft | clarkb: probably setup_requires failing? | 17:21 |
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| clarkb | mmdurrant_: most of our tox.ini's either have an upgrade step or enforce constarints meaning oackages should get upgraded to latest or to current constraint | 17:21 |
| jdandrea | I have tox 2.3.1. | 17:21 |
| mmdurrant_ | good to know, I should hang with you guys more often :) | 17:22 |
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| clarkb | dstufft: but the error reported is python setup.py egg_info can't verify pypi's ssl cert? | 17:22 |
| clarkb | oh I wonder are you behind a proxy and new urllib3 doesn't play nice with it? | 17:22 |
| jdandrea | From what I can tell, everything's at the latest rev. What's weird is why a manual install of pbr is all it takes for subsequent installs (even without cache) to "just work." Hmm... *thinking* | 17:22 |
| dstufft | clarkb: setup_requires get installed for egg_info | 17:23 |
| clarkb | dstufft: right, but why the ssl error is my question | 17:23 |
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| dstufft | clarkb: presumably setuptools can't verify PyPI's cert. would need to dig into that specifically, if you have an old openssl via homebrew you might not have an updated cert needed where setuptools looks? Or a proxy issue could be a problem for sure | 17:24 |
| jdandrea | fwiw: no proxy needed where I'm at. Using OpenSSL 1.0.2j 26 Sep 2016 if that helps? | 17:25 |
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| dstufft | jdandrea: try installing certifi first | 17:27 |
| jdandrea | Ahh, certifi. Sure. | 17:28 |
| * jdandrea makes new venv to try it out | 17:28 | |
| clarkb | I can make requests with urllib3 and certifi locally against pypi.python.org and that works | 17:28 |
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| jdandrea | dstufft Installing certifi let me install the main package with no errors! :) But then tox -e genconfig failed due to CERTIFICATE_VERIFY_FAILED. :( | 17:31 |
| jdandrea | So close. | 17:31 |
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| dstufft | jdandrea: your OpenSSL doesn't have SSL certificates available for it if certifi makes it workable | 17:32 |
| jdandrea | Guessing it's the venv tox makes and we're back to square one. Hmm. | 17:32 |
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| dstufft | installing certifi in the environment provides certificates for setuptools | 17:32 |
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| dstufft | pip isn't affected because pip bundles it's own certificates | 17:32 |
| jdandrea | dstufft Ok. Now if I don't install certifi and install pbr manually, that also leads to the install working. | 17:32 |
| jdandrea | dstufft *nod* re: pip | 17:32 |
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| jdandrea | dstufft Or perhaps I install certifi in my default/root env, unless that's immaterial. | 17:33 |
| dstufft | installing pbr works because that's the only thing in setup_requires, so if it's already available setuptools doesn't need to hit PyPI so it never needs to verify HTTPS | 17:33 |
| jdandrea | dstufft Ohhhh. | 17:33 |
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| jdandrea | Anyone else on macOS having this issue? :/ | 17:33 |
| jdandrea | (Yes, I have ubuntu VMs, but I'd like to do some local dev to the degree that I can.) | 17:33 |
| dstufft | jdandrea: presumably your openssl is just misconfigured, is it from Homebrew? | 17:34 |
| jdandrea | MacPorts. | 17:34 |
| dstufft | ah, I'm not familar with MacPorts | 17:35 |
| jdandrea | *nod* | 17:35 |
| dstufft | maybe there is another package you need to install to get certificates | 17:35 |
| jdandrea | dstufft Will check. | 17:35 |
| jdandrea | https://www.macports.org/ports.php?by=library&substr=curl-ca-bundle - but that's for curl | 17:35 |
| dstufft | does macports put the OpenSSL binary anywhere you can execute it? | 17:36 |
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| jdandrea | dstufft Yup. I can just type openssl and get a prompt | 17:36 |
| anteaya | cdent: in my reply to your mailing list post, I signed off and then had another inline question below my signature | 17:37 |
| cdent | anteaya: yeah, I noticed, just sent a response :) | 17:37 |
| anteaya | cdent: just wanted you to be aware in case you stopped reading when you saw I signed off | 17:37 |
| anteaya | cdent: thanks | 17:37 |
| jdandrea | (MacPorts puts everything under /opt/local and then I can activate it so my python, openssl, anything from the MacPorts version just works.) | 17:37 |
| jdandrea | (Including in venvs.) | 17:38 |
| dstufft | jdandrea: what does `openssl s_client -connect pypi.python.org:443` return, interested in the very last line, Verify Return Code | 17:38 |
| jdandrea | dstufft Lots of stuff, then "Verify return code: 20 (unable to get local issuer certificate)" | 17:38 |
| jdandrea | Well well. | 17:38 |
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| jdandrea | So if I solve *that* ... | 17:39 |
| dstufft | jdandrea: Ok, so it's definately a problem with your OpenSSL then :) I don't know enough about MacPorts to answer further though | 17:39 |
| dstufft | probably best to take it up with them or someone more familar | 17:39 |
| jdandrea | dstufft Thanks, I appreciate it. This gets me further. | 17:39 |
| jdandrea | Now I'll see about solving that! | 17:39 |
| dstufft | np | 17:39 |
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| jdandrea | dstufft Boom: http://andatche.com/blog/2012/02/fixing-ssl-ca-certificates-with-openssl-from-macports/ | 17:40 |
| jdandrea | dstufft Now getting Verify return code: 0 (ok) :) | 17:41 |
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| jdandrea | \o/ | 17:41 |
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| dstufft | jdandrea: awesome :] | 17:43 |
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| * dstufft continues to feel vindicated in pip's choice to ship our own CA bundle | 17:43 | |
| jdandrea | Now I get a pg_config executable not found error for ceilometer, but I'll go hunt that one down. XD | 17:44 |
| jdandrea | No SSL issues. | 17:44 |
| jdandrea | dstufft Ha! Right, that was smart. | 17:44 |
| dstufft | _theortically_ using the OS bundle is better, since it integrates with the platform better, but the OS is broken regularly :( | 17:45 |
| jdandrea | *nodnod* ... and that would be very very painful for pip. | 17:45 |
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| cdent | clayg: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/385128/ | 19:23 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance: wording tweaks on the tc-approved-release tag definition https://review.openstack.org/382064 | 19:34 |
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| clayg | cdent: yup wfm | 19:40 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Update TC membership for Ocata https://review.openstack.org/384543 | 20:08 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Propose Thierry Carrez as TC chair for Ocata https://review.openstack.org/384546 | 20:13 |
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| cdent | harlowja: I think what you're talking about with the events is in the long term vision for the nova stuff, but given that it is nova it presumably on a several cycle timetable | 20:38 |
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| harlowja | cdent fair | 20:39 |
| cdent | I'm not sure fair is the word I'd use, but did want you to know about it :) | 20:39 |
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| harlowja | ya, i'm like being nice :-P | 20:39 |
| cdent | Oh, is that still something we're supposed to be doing? | 20:40 |
| * cdent recalibrates | 20:40 | |
| harlowja | not sure | 20:40 |
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| * harlowja just wants a way to say do the following | 20:41 | |
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| harlowja | curl nova/v2/event_schemas | schema2py -m "mymodule" | 20:41 |
| harlowja | or something like that | 20:41 |
| cdent | yeah | 20:42 |
| harlowja | or schema2java (for those that care) | 20:42 |
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| harlowja | odd how things get created backwards like this, lol | 20:42 |
| harlowja | but i'm being nice!!! | 20:43 |
| harlowja | lol | 20:43 |
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| sdague | harlowja: so, consider the current state of the art to be a progression from "this stuff changes randomly at will" to "we locked it down with a schema in code" | 20:45 |
| harlowja | sdague i get that :) | 20:45 |
| harlowja | progression is a word for it :-P | 20:45 |
| sdague | autogenerating consumption from that in various languages... perhaps useful, but also might end up being more work than most folks need | 20:46 |
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| harlowja | i need it :-P | 20:48 |
| harlowja | for example, consuming event stream into servicenow (which is afaik java) | 20:49 |
| sdague | harlowja: vs just hand rolling the parts you need? | 20:49 |
| harlowja | i know what u mean | 20:49 |
| harlowja | its a tradeoff in a few ways | 20:49 |
| harlowja | hand rolled or machine built | 20:49 |
| sdague | writing a parser for the language by hand is probably an order of magnitude easier that writing the code generator | 20:50 |
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| sdague | make it an openstack project, and off you run | 20:50 |
| harlowja | thing i'm unsure about is there a jsonschema -> code (that makes less than crap code) | 20:50 |
| harlowja | that's the typical problem with generated crap | 20:50 |
| harlowja | is that it sorta turns into crap, lol | 20:50 |
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| sdague | yeh, I'm not sure there is quite enough info in jsonschema to really do that for you | 20:50 |
| sdague | it's mostly useful as a validator afterwards | 20:51 |
| sdague | but ++ on starting a java library as an openstack project that consumes these things | 20:51 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: wording tweaks on the tc-approved-release tag definition https://review.openstack.org/382064 | 20:51 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Simplify governance website title https://review.openstack.org/382399 | 20:51 |
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| harlowja | ya, at least some basic ones i think then sdague (maybe not auto-generated, idk) | 20:51 |
| sdague | right, that at least gets you rolling. If autogeneration looks good in the future, cool | 20:52 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Record OpenStack-Salt as a Legacy project https://review.openstack.org/382536 | 20:52 |
| sdague | but, I know that various community experiences dealing with k8s swagger to generate code have been... less than optimal | 20:52 |
| harlowja | ya, the part that idk about is that swagger i think uses autogen | 20:53 |
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| sdague | and people end up having to just go do it by hand | 20:53 |
| harlowja | sdague right, is that situation getting better though | 20:53 |
| sdague | harlowja: sure | 20:53 |
| harlowja | that's the nicer thing about auto-gen | 20:53 |
| cdent | harlowja: you know ingy? | 20:53 |
| harlowja | if it gets better in the generator it usually gets better for everyone | 20:53 |
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| cdent | harlowja: if you wanna go new and left field: http://www.schematype.org/ | 20:53 |
| harlowja | cdent whats ingy | 20:54 |
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| cdent | ingy is a he | 20:54 |
| sdague | harlowja: yeh, but if there are any bugs in the generator you are dead in the water :) | 20:54 |
| clarkb | ingy is a person taht writes code in yaml then cross compiles to python js ruby perl etc | 20:54 |
| harlowja | sdague agreed, with great power comes great responsiblity :-P | 20:55 |
| harlowja | clarkb is that for real? | 20:55 |
| harlowja | lol | 20:55 |
| sdague | we basically unwound the generator bits of the the API from wadl, because it was all dead in the water, and found manual worked better | 20:55 |
| clarkb | harlowja: yup | 20:55 |
| cdent | actually, ingy would probably prefer to be a they | 20:55 |
| cdent | harlowja: ingy invented a language, called c'dent that would compile to python, js, ruby etc | 20:55 |
| clarkb | ingy is also yaml's author | 20:55 |
| cdent | he named it after me to try to get a rise out of me | 20:55 |
| harlowja | cdent is that your pappa | 20:55 |
| harlowja | pappa cdent | 20:56 |
| cdent | as I was not being properly appreciative of his fancy things | 20:56 |
| clarkb | its sort of lisp like | 20:56 |
| harlowja | hmmm | 20:56 |
| harlowja | lol | 20:56 |
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| cdent | depending on mood | 20:56 |
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| harlowja | you can't change your pappa depending on your mood | 20:56 |
| harlowja | thats not how it works :-P | 20:57 |
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| cdent | I don't understand this things, probably because ingy never explained them | 20:57 |
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| harlowja | birds | 20:58 |
| harlowja | and some bees | 20:58 |
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| cdent | are you going to be my new papa harlowja ? | 20:59 |
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| EmilienM | piet_: hey, you around? | 21:01 |
| dims | piet_ : ping | 21:01 |
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| piet_ | Yeah | 21:02 |
| harlowja | cdent sure | 21:02 |
| harlowja | lol | 21:02 |
| piet_ | A couple of links | 21:02 |
| johnthetubaguy | piet_: I will read the scroll back, sounds like you have interesting data that I have been looking for, but its 10pm here, and I need to go and unwind now | 21:02 |
| EmilienM | piet_: I'm curious now, could you give some rough summary of your concerns? | 21:02 |
| dims | good night johnthetubaguy | 21:03 |
| Rockyg | I can idenitfy a couple of issues....workflow -- if the SW doesn't match what the users consider a sensible workflow, they make more mistakes and like the SW less | 21:04 |
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| Rockyg | It also causes lots of confusion | 21:04 |
| piet_ | EmilienM If you really look closely at the User Survey you'll notice that usability is really a barrier to adoption. Generally, people aren't really asking for new features as much as asking for the current ones to be usability | 21:04 |
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| Rockyg | EmilienM, it is often a frame of reference. every design decision in isolation could be perfectly reasonable, but when put in the context of processes, becomes confusing/error prone, tediouys, etc. | 21:06 |
| EmilienM | piet_: have we documented the issues somewhere public? have we communicated on public mailing list? | 21:06 |
| dims | piet_ : did you post the links? | 21:06 |
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| Rockyg | EmilienM, often times, the first documentation is through a bug report. Unfortunately, they are often marked "invalid" or "enhancement" because there is nothing actually wrong with the code itself. | 21:08 |
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| piet_ | dims EmilienM Actually our biggest challenge is helping to drive the community to resolve some of the issues that are being identified from the user research. However, that issue isn't unique to just UX | 21:08 |
| piet_ | Some links | 21:08 |
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| piet_ | Cloud Operator Interviews: Quota Management at Production Scale https://youtu.be/OobZWrDtFSM | 21:09 |
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| piet_ | Cloud Operator Interviews: Information Needs https://youtu.be/dktorTIqU5s | 21:10 |
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| piet_ | Application Developer usability: Horizon novice user experience https://youtu.be/cWj3ogTIgQ8 | 21:10 |
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| piet_ | We should have at least two more reports for the summit | 21:12 |
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| anteaya | piet_: is the information available in any format other than video? | 21:14 |
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| piet_ | anteaya I was hoping to post the presentations to the wiki, but not sure you can upload PDFs anymore | 21:15 |
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| anteaya | well we can't due to spamming | 21:16 |
| anteaya | however if the pdfs are all slides I think that still leaves some holes | 21:17 |
| Rockyg | piet_ has also done a lot of research on "roles" that are common in the user community. We know ops, app devs and endusers, but really understanding what they want to do and how/whether OpenStack allows it is really useful | 21:17 |
| anteaya | is there anyway there can be a summary written up of your findings? | 21:17 |
| anteaya | you seem to have some | 21:17 |
| anteaya | I think folks are wanting to have the information you are wanting to convey | 21:18 |
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| Rockyg | Actually, piet_, could you do pdf to html conversion then cut and paste to the wiki? | 21:18 |
| anteaya | but so far we don't have an agreed upon format for delivering that information | 21:18 |
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| anteaya | or just a summary? | 21:18 |
| stevemar | ttx: did the times for sessions move? everything is now an hour earlier from when I last looked at design sessions | 21:18 |
| anteaya | starting with a summary would be great for context | 21:18 |
| anteaya | then folks know enough about what you are talking about to ask questions | 21:19 |
| anteaya | stevemar: I think he is offline for the night now | 21:19 |
| Rockyg | anteaya, I keep advocating for "take a dev to work day" so devs can experience the thrill of Cyber Monday ;-) | 21:19 |
| piet_ | Rockyg could also post to google docs and share the link, but not open source at that point | 21:19 |
| anteaya | Rockyg: I have no idea what the context of that comment is | 21:19 |
| anteaya | piet_: do you have a summary? | 21:20 |
| anteaya | is there a text summary? | 21:20 |
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| anteaya | at this point folks don't want a presentation | 21:20 |
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| anteaya | they would like a summary | 21:20 |
| anteaya | for some context | 21:20 |
| Rockyg | anteaya, a way to convey the information the community is trying to convey to devs -- what it's like to manage clouds realtime | 21:20 |
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| anteaya | well here's the thing | 21:21 |
| anteaya | I'm a good listener and I'm listening | 21:21 |
| anteaya | others are good listeners and they also are listening | 21:21 |
| Rockyg | And piet_ and I truly appreciate that. | 21:21 |
| anteaya | if the information appears in text somewhere where we can find it we will consume it | 21:22 |
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| anteaya | so if they information isn't currently in text, can it become some form of text? | 21:22 |
| Rockyg | piet_, could the pdfs be put into a git repo? Then you are talking the devs' language | 21:22 |
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| anteaya | is it impossible to create some text? | 21:23 |
| Rockyg | And no worries about google | 21:23 |
| cdent | anteaya++ | 21:23 |
| anteaya | cdent: see I knew others were listening | 21:23 |
| cdent | having something to read is really critical to gaining a widespread audience | 21:23 |
| anteaya | we would really like this information | 21:24 |
| anteaya | and it is really frustrating for me to be handed links to 3 videos | 21:24 |
| anteaya | I would like to read something | 21:24 |
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| Rockyg | So, pdf is an image that is readable, but there are also convertre that will convert to HTML. Then it would be like reading a wiki page or an online doc. I think the issue is that ascii alone doesn't work well for conveying the info. | 21:26 |
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| piet_ | anteaya Rockyg the general need is to have someone from the PWG (or another group) to help drive the recommendations with the projects. For example, legible log files were identified as a huge issue for operators when triaging issues with production clouds. | 21:26 |
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| piet_ | Rockyg You're right - most of our presentations are image heavy | 21:27 |
| Rockyg | piet_, I've been trying to drive the logs. Then I got pulled other ways. I think I've found a dev team that wants to move forward with some of the work. | 21:27 |
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| stevemar | anteaya: thanks for the heads up | 21:27 |
| Rockyg | But, yeah. I hear you. And understand your frustrations | 21:28 |
| piet_ | Rockyg That would be good. Huge priority for operators (as you likely know) | 21:28 |
| clarkb | on the Horizon front, I often wonder if that would more naturally sort itself out if we focused on the underlying APIs first. Horizon does a lot of excellent work to sit between you and the APIs but a lot of the APIs are hard to use and that often reflects through the clients whether it is openstackclient or Horizon or $sdk | 21:28 |
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| clarkb | its great that people want to make horizon better but that ignores a lot of the underlying issues | 21:29 |
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| piet_ | Rockyg anteaya Heading out - thanks for talking me down | 21:30 |
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| Rockyg | the Openstack client is really important and I'm pretty sure piet_ has been working closely with them. | 21:30 |
| Rockyg | Yeah. See you at the summit! | 21:30 |
| clarkb | Rockyg: yes but my point is working at that level is less efficient and valuable than working at the layer below | 21:30 |
| clarkb | because you will fix the same problems over and over again in openstackclient, shade, horizon, etc | 21:31 |
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| clarkb | or you can fix the problem once in the APIs | 21:31 |
| Rockyg | clarkb, that's where the api wg could help if it had more power to get people to listen/act. | 21:31 |
| clarkb | I don't think the api wg has been trying to explicitly fix things though? more guidelies but cdent can correct me on that | 21:31 |
| Rockyg | Consistency of api's across projects is really important | 21:31 |
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| Rockyg | I think it | 21:32 |
| clarkb | consistency isn't really the problem though | 21:32 |
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| Rockyg | s because they don't have a mandate to fix; only to suggest. | 21:32 |
| clarkb | (like that is an issue but ist one of the least important issues) | 21:32 |
| cdent | clarkb: I'd _love_ to fix things, but we don't have mandate to do that, especially in the older projects | 21:32 |
| cdent | so effectively what we do i provide guidelines that are a compromise between what already exists and should exist | 21:32 |
| dtroyer | clarkb: the APIs really is not the right place…yes things can improve by making OSC and Horizon do su much to hide fussy APIs, but the end result is it has to be the direct user experience | 21:32 |
| Rockyg | Consider how nice it would be if ever project's "list" api was structured the same way with arguments in the same order. | 21:33 |
| cdent | clarkb: we also discovered that there was a great deal that needed to be done simply in terms of http education the lack of which was leading to poor decision making in api design in the first place | 21:33 |
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| clarkb | cdent: gotcha | 21:33 |
| cdent | sadly the need to maintain some form of backwards compatibility has been a speedbump, understandably so | 21:34 |
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| Rockyg | So, it would be great if upstream university could have classes like how to use/work with http for *ALL* devs. Then anyone could drop in for a refresher | 21:35 |
| anteaya | piet_ left unfortunately, hopefully he can provide information in some version of text in future | 21:35 |
| clarkb | Rockyg: in my experience the bigger issues in the APIs are consistency within a project (nova can do all sorts of different things absed on hypervisor for example, neutron the same based on network model, etc) and complexity of things that should be simple like give me working networking or how do I make a security group that will allow gre? | 21:35 |
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| clarkb | and I think solving those problems will only make openstackclient, horizon, et al better | 21:36 |
| cdent | clarkb Rockyg I think that a lot of that can be resolved by having a porcelain api over the plumbing pais | 21:36 |
| cdent | s/pais/apis/ | 21:36 |
| dtroyer | that is what we are shooting for, and why we're doing another study in Barcelona | 21:36 |
| Rockyg | So, consistency *within* a project is the first layer, then across projects, etc. | 21:36 |
| Rockyg | and that | 21:36 |
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| Rockyg | is why I think OSC is doing a great job of applying porcelain | 21:37 |
| cdent | Rockyg: that's a different kind of porcelain | 21:37 |
| cdent | one that is great | 21:37 |
| anteaya | dtroyer: nice work on the porcelain | 21:37 |
| clarkb | oh definitely, osc is my go to client now and if I have to use a different client I tend to at least try and file a bug with osc first or look at fixing | 21:37 |
| cdent | but putting it in the client layer means you are losing the value and sense of a client indepedent and robust API | 21:38 |
| dtroyer | yeah, I think cdent is referring to another REST API layer that contains more business logic, the kind of stuff that shade and OSC do today | 21:38 |
| clarkb | dtroyer: btw we haev tls-proxy enabled in a bunch of tests now. Considering the osc issues with neutron and https what do yo uthink about enabling it on the osc jobs? | 21:38 |
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| dtroyer | clarkb: yes! | 21:38 |
| clarkb | dtroyer: great, I will whip up taht change today if I don't run out of time | 21:38 |
| cdent | if we lose the value of a clean API at the http layer, why bother with an http layer at all? | 21:38 |
| dtroyer | I'm building the study DevStack setup with it all on and it's been working fine so far | 21:38 |
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| Rockyg | So, it may be possible to use the OSC's lessons learned on consistency to direct improvements further down the stack as new apis are written or old ones refactored | 21:39 |
| cdent | yes | 21:39 |
| dtroyer | Rockyg: that's where (I think) the API WG is setting, to get everything new to look 'right' | 21:40 |
| Rockyg | Exactly! | 21:40 |
| * dtroyer declines to define 'right' today | 21:40 | |
| cdent | patches accepted ;) | 21:40 |
| clarkb | dtroyer: also I finally got used to use openstack ip floating * and now I hae to learn openstack floating ip :P | 21:41 |
| Rockyg | Wouldn't it be great to have a meetup specifically focused on driving consistency into the apis? | 21:41 |
| dtroyer | clarkb: sorry, that one annoyed me forever… | 21:41 |
| Rockyg | neuton interfaces --- argh! Runaway! | 21:42 |
| Rockyg | Anyway, I also need to run. Great exchange here. Thanks everyone! | 21:42 |
| dtroyer | clarkb: hopefully the new ones are more consistent with everything else, Neutron introduced some things | 21:42 |
| cdent | Rockyg: I think "consistency" is a difficult word. On what dimension(s)? According to whom? To what end? Etc. | 21:43 |
| dtroyer | cdent: which is why writing down the rules is importnat… api-wg guidelines, Horizon and OSC's human interface guides, etc | 21:43 |
| * cdent nods | 21:43 | |
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| Rockyg | ++ that's why it deserves its own workshop. By the end, we might have a clue. | 21:44 |
| Rockyg | ttfn! | 21:44 |
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| harlowja | for osc can anyone make openstack -h not spew out so much :-P | 21:44 |
| harlowja | maybe have a -h -detailed to show all the commands? | 21:44 |
| harlowja | :) | 21:44 |
| harlowja | and -h to keep it simpe | 21:44 |
| harlowja | *simple | 21:45 |
| dtroyer | harlowja: its on our list… but some other things needed to be done first | 21:45 |
| harlowja | kk | 21:45 |
| harlowja | huge help | 21:45 |
| harlowja | huggggee | 21:45 |
| dtroyer | also, it'll take some munging of argparse | 21:45 |
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| EmilienM | Rockyg: sorry I was afk. A lot of thoughts in scrollback. I'm trying to understand what actions we could take to improve the situation | 21:47 |
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| cdent | g'night all, and thanks | 21:50 |
| EmilienM | cdent: o/ | 21:51 |
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| harlowja | dtroyer ya, any idea what the other things done first are? | 22:01 |
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| harlowja | i don't mind seeing if i can munge argparse help formatters | 22:01 |
| harlowja | and/or massage | 22:01 |
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| dtroyer | would love the help! | 22:02 |
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| harlowja | k, the help thing bothers me so i'll see what i can do | 22:02 |
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| harlowja | 10 pages of help when i run -h | 22:02 |
| harlowja | lol | 22:02 |
| dtroyer | I spent most of the summer doing osc-lib and rewriting the auth bits to properly account for all of the new features os-client-config grew | 22:02 |
| harlowja | cool | 22:03 |
| dtroyer | we're planning to talk about that more in BCN, get specific on how it should work | 22:03 |
| harlowja | the -h command? | 22:03 |
| harlowja | it should output some help | 22:03 |
| harlowja | but not to much | 22:03 |
| harlowja | lol | 22:03 |
| dtroyer | the vast majority of the rest of development time went into Network and Volume support | 22:03 |
| dtroyer | -h, —help and the help command all used to do different things | 22:04 |
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| harlowja | -h, —help used to do different things? | 22:04 |
| dtroyer | now, the overview is for -h and —help to give basically an index on how to find more help | 22:04 |
| dtroyer | yeah, that one was a bug :) | 22:04 |
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| clarkb | it might help if the top level help just emitted top level commands | 22:07 |
| clarkb | the you have to help on eg server to get those things | 22:07 |
| dtroyer | so list the resources? there are a lot if you have all of the plugins installed :) | 22:07 |
| dtroyer | which is also going to become a thing | 22:07 |
| dtroyer | optional | 22:08 |
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| tonyb | mtreinish: Oh right .... clearly I need to fix that. Sorry | 23:10 |
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| clarkb | dtroyer: ya I often forget how to eg check my quotas and its not a quota command its a limit command | 23:10 |
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| mtreinish | tonyb: heh, no worries. It's nv so it's not like it breaks anything | 23:11 |
| clarkb | dtroyer: so getting a listing of the base level commands with description that you can then dig into might be good? I think right now we just get all comamnds and sub commands which is a bit verbose | 23:11 |
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| tonyb | mtreinish: good job it's nv :) | 23:13 |
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| tonyb | mtreinish: I particularly like the yamllint failed it's own yaml file ;P | 23:26 |
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| mriedem | jd__: does ceilometer only get metrics from other openstack services? or can you plugin in other monitors? | 23:38 |
| mriedem | like if you wanted to get compute node metrics for cpu usage, can ceilometer consume that from something that's not nova? | 23:39 |
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