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| openstackgerrit | Martin André proposed openstack/governance: Add tripleo-validations to TripleO project https://review.openstack.org/319238 | 11:18 |
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| annegentle | ttx: ping | 13:25 |
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| ttx | annegentle: pong | 13:26 |
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| annegentle | ttx: do you have more of the problem statement for the "TC meeting jumps from dead boring rubberstamping to discussion so animated nobody can follow" -- is it the meeting attendees or the asynch readers later? | 13:27 |
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| annegentle | ttx: is the input from someone on the TC? And am I a culprit in the hard to follow? :) | 13:27 |
| ttx | meeting attendees saying it's just too busy in meeting to follow the discussion | 13:28 |
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| annegentle | ttx: I want to hear more about the problem statement. "As a TC member, I can't follow along to a) get my voice heard or b) collect my thoughts?" | 13:28 |
| annegentle | could be both | 13:29 |
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| annegentle | ttx: is it more that the debate is unfair? Or poorly structured? | 13:29 |
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| ttx | I think it's that at one point we reach so many activity you can't follow along (collect thoughts) | 13:30 |
| annegentle | ttx: or "I thought the tc would be a fun weekly argument instead it's a bunch of reviews?" | 13:30 |
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| ttx | so many active threads | 13:30 |
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| ttx | annegentle: no, I think we are past the "bunch of reviews", with the formal-vote system | 13:30 |
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| ttx | It's more that we can't really rreach any kind of consensus in meeting | 13:30 |
| ttx | feedback to my email seems to be that's fine | 13:31 |
| annegentle | ttx: no agreement in meeting, ok. | 13:31 |
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| ttx | i.e. people enjoy the possibility the just have that very active discussion | 13:31 |
| annegentle | ttx: that's helpful | 13:31 |
| ttx | s/the/to | 13:31 |
| annegentle | ttx: there isn't really another way to have it that lets outside observers read it asynch right? | 13:31 |
| ttx | I was just reaching out to see if that was a problem we should try to solve or not | 13:32 |
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| ttx | annegentle: we could have the discussion on a more async medium like email, but then some members talk in meeting and never in email | 13:33 |
| annegentle | ttx: yeah. I'm re-reading the thread and not sure I understood the problem so wanted to ask. I think you've outlined it well in the "major issue" paragraph. | 13:33 |
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| ttx | annegentle: the thread was more... "I heard some noise, do we have a problem ?" | 13:33 |
| ttx | like I said most answers to that were "no" | 13:33 |
| annegentle | ttx: yeah. | 13:33 |
| annegentle | ttx: ok, good. | 13:34 |
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| annegentle | ttx: I do feel like I don't often have one-on-ones with others in the tc for any issue. | 13:34 |
| ttx | I think we could do a bit more prep and be a bit more disciplined in-meeting, but that's margin improvements | 13:34 |
| annegentle | ttx: not sure if that's good or bad, just not sure of the measure of when / how often that's needed | 13:34 |
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| annegentle | (plus you note the exclusive part) | 13:34 |
| annegentle | ttx: yeah, agreed on the marginal improvements | 13:35 |
| sdague | so, one of the things which might be useful is when these things go all over the place is to figure out where our common ground is | 13:35 |
| sdague | which we could use the #vote construct on | 13:35 |
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| ttx | sdague: one issue is that the vote being recorded feels like more of a formal vote. So we would have to make it clear that we vote on reviews and not in-meeting | 13:36 |
| sdague | ttx: sure | 13:36 |
| ttx | and use #vote to get temp reading | 13:36 |
| ttx | it's just not very easy to get back control of the room once you have 10 threads and people finishing typing answers they started 20 seconds ago | 13:36 |
| annegentle | sdague: feels like a more positive framing too | 13:37 |
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| sdague | ttx: well, that's part of the vote construct. It's also part of slicing the topic a bit more. Yes, it will take time for stuff to prune down as people are still going on thoughts, but as long as we can come back to them its fine | 13:37 |
| sdague | I feel like the reason that the straggler debates keep going is that it's not clear there is another space for them | 13:38 |
| annegentle | I sense too that discussions as nuanced as the golang mean you type more carefully as you respond... | 13:38 |
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| sdague | I also think that on anything nuanced we're not going to get resolution in a line by line response mechanism | 13:39 |
| ttx | yeah so far we use the meeting more to raise the issue and see who cares | 13:39 |
| annegentle | sdague: for sure, feels that way to me too | 13:39 |
| sdague | https://m.signalvnoise.com/is-group-chat-making-you-sweat-744659addf7d#.xjpf4mz2k | 13:39 |
| ttx | rather than reach consensus | 13:39 |
| annegentle | sdague: Heh on "Group chat is like being in an all-day meeting with random participants and no agenda." | 13:39 |
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| sdague | annegentle: right, I think the most important bit is "Thinking a line at a time rather than a thought at a time. Most things worth discussing at length are worth discussing in detail over time. Because chat is presented one line at a time, complete thoughts have to unfold one line-at-a-time. But since people can jump in any time before you’ve had a chance to fully present yourself, making a point can become reall | 13:40 |
| sdague | y frustrating really quickly. " | 13:40 |
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| annegentle | sdague: I do think the meeting is well-run, structured with an agenda, but oh it's hard to make decent points (without writing it up ahead of time, which isn't the point) | 13:41 |
| annegentle | sdague: so true | 13:41 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Update Kuryr deliverable https://review.openstack.org/314057 | 13:41 |
| annegentle | sdague: ttx: it's like how you can't make a decent point on Twitter, not enough chars nor attention. | 13:41 |
| sdague | I feel like at this point in the discussion I'm not entirely sure what we are discussing. Because we have a proposal on go, which is mostly "we'll do due dilligence" and the details left to later | 13:42 |
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| sdague | but now we have a counter concept of changing the project structure again, which is still pre-concept phase (nothing concrete). | 13:42 |
| sdague | and the 2 things are easy to conflate and impact each other | 13:43 |
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| annegentle | sdague: and it's emotionally charged as people feel like it's a kick-out | 13:44 |
| annegentle | sdague: so it's the worst of all worlds | 13:45 |
| sdague | right | 13:45 |
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| ttx | sdague: yes, I can see the issue I created by actively conflating the two... The issue was that the available answers (yes or no) were not where the tension was. It's more between yes and actually-not-a-valid-question-if-we-do-X. Wanted to avoid us saying yes and then doing X. But agree reordering them this way created more confusion than clarity | 13:46 |
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| annegentle | ttx: I conflate all the time, so the reframe was helpful to me anyway :) | 13:48 |
| annegentle | ttx: and, it's way more nuanced than it's presented, so I think it's correct to not paint it black and white | 13:48 |
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| annegentle | (it being "include golang") | 13:49 |
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| annegentle | have to start online training, so offline for a bit. thanks ttx and sdague | 13:50 |
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| ttx | but then if most people think there is no relationship between language and scope, then I agree that it's not the moment to do any kind of witch hunt. Whoever wants one should start one, but the golang addition is not related | 13:50 |
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| anteaya | sdague: in response to your comment above that the straggler debates keep going because it isn't clear there is another space for them, I think there is lots of space I think the bit the speakers are looking for is the captive audience | 13:53 |
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| anteaya | and I thinik that abusing the captive audience is part of the grumbling that ttx was trying to raise | 13:54 |
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| anteaya | unfortunately I don't see a clear solution | 13:54 |
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| sdague | anteaya: maybe. I find a lot of them are a point that wasn't really resolved and people are still going back and forth on it | 14:01 |
| anteaya | fair enough | 14:01 |
| anteaya | I have seen that as well | 14:02 |
| anteaya | personally if I felt the group had moved on I would bring it up one on one with someone who had a thought about it earlier, for instance in -dev | 14:03 |
| anteaya | or take it too the mailing list so it didn't get lost, depending on how strongly I felt about the issue | 14:03 |
| anteaya | but perhaps those options aren't clear or others don't have as much faith in them | 14:03 |
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| * cdent takes dhellmann's bait | 16:07 | |
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| cdent | anteaya: ++ on [t 3QV6], I think that's an important observation | 16:12 |
| purplerbot | <anteaya> sdague: in response to your comment above that the straggler debates keep going because it isn't clear there is another space for them, I think there is lots of space I think the bit the speakers are looking for is the captive audience [2016-05-23 13:53:13] [n 3QV6] | 16:12 |
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| cdent | dhellmann: your post begs the question: Is defcore's definition of interoperable the same as "useful interoperability for human's who neither think nor want to think about corporate ephemera like 'trademarks'". I'd post that but I'm going out the door instead. | 16:55 |
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| dhellmann | cdent : that is one of their goals. so if it isn't yet, that's the mechanism we have in the community to make it so. | 16:56 |
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| dhellmann | cdent : in addition to technical design decisions within projects, of course | 16:56 |
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| stewie925 | hello all | 18:20 |
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| jasond | for some reason, pip isn't pulling in wrapt, funcsigs dependencies for oslo.config and monotonic and pytz for oslo.utils packages. has anybody seen this? | 20:26 |
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| lifeless | tonyb_: you pung? | 22:56 |
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| tonyb_ | lifeless: hey. Let me dig up an email which has the context in it | 23:37 |
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| tonyb_ | lifeless: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/095311.html the second point about not being able to do pip install -c /path/to/u-c.txt . (where . is a package listed in u-c.txt) | 23:41 |
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| tonyb_ | lifeless: is that something that we (I) can fix in pip or is or more or less workign as designed | 23:41 |
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| tonyb_ | lifeless: ihar has a work-around which installs openstack-requirements and uses edit-constraints but I'd kinda like to avoidf that if possible while still being able to use constraints in python-*client | 23:42 |
| lifeless | tonyb_: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/301541/ | 23:42 |
| lifeless | tonyb_: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317909/ | 23:42 |
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| lifeless | Nakato: ^ FYI | 23:42 |
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| tonyb | lifeless: Thanks. | 23:43 |
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| tonyb | lifeless: so we can cargo cult 317909 (or similar) but is this something we can change in pip | 23:45 |
| tonyb | lifeless: without compromising the ideas behind constraints | 23:46 |
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| sputnik13 | has anyone tried creating an ubuntu16.04 image with diskimage-builder? | 23:49 |
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| tonyb | sputnik13: Yup infra has: http://nodepool.openstack.org/ | 23:50 |
| tonyb | sputnik13: there are xenial logs at the end | 23:50 |
| sputnik13 | I keep getting errors about python not available in pre-install.d | 23:50 |
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| tonyb | sputnik13: sorry no idea, check the logs I pointed you at and see if there is anything special you need to do | 23:53 |
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| sputnik13 | tonyb thx | 23:53 |
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