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| openstackgerrit | Sean Dague proposed openstack/governance: Adds the Sphinx extension used to publish API reference docs https://review.openstack.org/317686 | 00:20 |
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| openstackgerrit | James Page proposed openstack/governance: Add Juju Charms for OpenStack https://review.openstack.org/224797 | 10:04 |
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| cdent | dtantsur: did you mean "believe" or "agree" or "approve of" ? | 11:13 |
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| cartik | can someone point me on how to perform neutron upgrade from kilo to mitaka, i just want to update neutron alone is it possible? | 11:19 |
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| dtantsur | cdent, I assume you mean my mail to "supporting Go"? rather believe (though you never know with a non-native speaker :) | 11:27 |
| cdent | dtantsur: yeah, I couldn't decide what you were trying to say. | 11:28 |
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| cdent | that people aren't doing what lifeless describes, or _shouldn't_ do what he describes, or something else | 11:29 |
| cdent | but since that thread is already all over the map didn't want to bring it up on the list... | 11:29 |
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| dtantsur | cdent, well.. that I don't think it's such a break-through as people hope it is. | 11:29 |
| dtantsur | +1 to not making this thread crazier :) | 11:29 |
| cdent | ah, okay, I get you now | 11:30 |
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| * dtantsur should improve this English for sure :D | 11:30 | |
| cdent | With that small piece of confusion cleared up I think I can get some lunch now :) | 11:31 |
| dtantsur | enjoy! | 11:31 |
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| njohnston | Hi, I have a stupid Gerrit question. In a change I am working on, I am listed as the Author, and another developer who contributed is the patch Owner. I want to make sure I have the correct Co-Authored-By tag. Who should I put as a co-author: the person who is not the change Owner, or the person who is not the change Author? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/288392 | 12:37 |
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| clarkb | njohnston: the person who is not the change Author. Owner is a gerrit thing so to get the right info in git you want to make sure the git author is correct then add additional info | 12:45 |
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| njohnston | Thanks clarkb, I appreciate the info. | 12:47 |
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| cdent | thanks for starting that "scope" thread ttx, long past due | 13:22 |
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| ttx | cdent: yeah, we can't keep on punting | 13:22 |
| cdent | ++ | 13:23 |
| ttx | even if that's much more comfortable | 13:23 |
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| cdent | ttx: I think maybe you're just jealous that notmyname started such a long thread so you came up with the one topic that will almost certainly be longer :D | 13:23 |
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| ttx | "what is openstack" is the ultimate bikeshed thread | 13:24 |
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| sdague | I guess for the meta meta question, how do we resolve it? Because past discussions demonstrate that we will not get to consensus. | 13:29 |
| sdague | so we need a framework for resolution up front | 13:29 |
| sdague | i.e. we're going to gather feedback from X, Y, Z areas for N timeframe. Then group A is going to do B with it. Then C is going to do F, and it's resolved, and we won't talk about it again for another 2 yeas. | 13:30 |
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| sdague | and declaring and agreeing to that framework up front, will make it possible to get to some resolution without people feeling like the rules have been changed on them half way through. | 13:32 |
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| sdague | because the framework exists up front | 13:33 |
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| cdent | sdague: lack of consensus is a favorable state for many of the participants | 13:35 |
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| sdague | right, so because of past experiences, doing this discussion without laying out a framework for potentially making a change, is mostly pointless. Because the default rule of consensus based decisions means nothing will change, because we won't get there. | 13:36 |
| sdague | so the net effect of the thread is people feeling personally smart about the points they have made :) | 13:37 |
| sdague | and nothing else | 13:37 |
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| cdent | "feeling personally smart" is a good way to put it | 13:40 |
| cdent | I reckon the TC is going to need to flex some muscle on this point. | 13:40 |
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| openstackgerrit | Julien Danjou proposed openstack/governance: Add Panko to Telemetry https://review.openstack.org/318675 | 13:47 |
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| dtroyer | cdent: you are assuming the TC even can get close to consensus, much less the wider community | 14:09 |
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| cdent | dtroyer: Not so much assuming that as declaring that a prereq. | 14:10 |
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| cdent | So perhaps in addition to "muscle" also "coherence" | 14:11 |
| cdent | and "balls" | 14:11 |
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| dtroyer | I do think there may be near-equal parts of "unwilling to do/say hard things" as well as actual differences of opinion and belief of what is best for OpenStack | 14:12 |
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| dtroyer | solving this for the TC case may be useful in solving it for the genral case | 14:12 |
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| cdent | dtroyer: I'm of two minds. Part of me feels that the TC should debate in their own space and present some proposals, thus to keep the noise down. Another part of me thinks that idea is entirely contrary to the open principles | 14:15 |
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| dtroyer | cdent: I think one of the places we are fooling ourselves is that OpenStack is truly open. It from the beginning has been corporate funded and subject to business needs. With that bounding box, the definition of in/out has business ramification all over, well beyond trademark usage and the like. So in this environment, what does "open principles" mean? It certainly isn't what my understanding was 25 years ago, or even 5. | 14:22 |
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| cdent | dtroyer: ah well, yeah, I've been trying to avoid that line of thinking because in some sense that path leads to despair. On any given day it is _very_ hard to call OpenStack opensource. Few of us work on this because we are scratching a personal itch. | 14:23 |
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| dtroyer | not just the traditional personal thing though, to me it is the product-driven parts that pinch. And is one reason I think we need to stay away from OpenStack itself being a product | 14:24 |
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| dtroyer | that is what keeps the motivation for the coopetition between our members and gives them some value-add that they need | 14:25 |
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| cdent | this converstation needs snacks, tasty beverage, nature | 14:27 |
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| dtroyer | :) | 14:28 |
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| sdague | cdent: I contest that "true open source" is only projects that are the hobbies projects. That's kind of like saying it's not art if you get paid for it. | 14:29 |
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| cdent | sdague: I'm not fully making that statement, just waving a hand in that direction as a factor influencing people's brains | 14:30 |
| cdent | mind you: in my perfect universe there won't be any money so I'm so far outside the current reality it is hard for me to maintain any consistent perspective on this stuff | 14:31 |
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| cdent | that are of thinking find the whole concept of coopetition to be reprehensible and just so much enterprisey bullshit to extract value from labor | 14:32 |
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| cdent | s/are/area/ | 14:32 |
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| sdague | cdent: sure, in Rodenberry's 24th century that's fine. But we aren't there :) | 14:32 |
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| cdent | "so far outside the current reality" | 14:33 |
| sdague | :) | 14:33 |
| cdent | However, that doesn't mean I should stay quiet about enterprisey bullshit... | 14:33 |
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| cdent | even though it is the hand that feeds me (or perhaps because it is the hand that feeds me) | 14:33 |
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| sdague | right, it's fine to call out things that are bad ideas because they are bad ideas. | 14:34 |
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| dtroyer | coopetition was baked into OpenStack from day 1, good or bad, without it OpenStack does't exist. There are a number of us who have the opportunity (or obligation!) to stand up and call out the bad ideas facing both directions (community vs employer). | 14:38 |
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| dtroyer | sometimes it seems like it is easier to tell $EMPLOYER no than it is to say it to the community | 14:38 |
| aloga | jamielennox: are you around for a second, regarding https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317968/ ? | 14:38 |
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| sdague | bknudson / notmorgan / ayoung - can you look at the oslo.policy stack for policy in code - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/313141/ ? | 14:59 |
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| ayoung | sdague, so the part I was still mulling was "Registering a policy with the same name twice is considered an error and will raise a DuplicatePolicyError exception." | 15:00 |
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| ayoung | not sure that should be an error. Might want to be able to overwrite. | 15:01 |
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| sdague | ayoung: you can overwrite it with the file | 15:01 |
| sdague | why would you want your code to have 2 instances that would race in their application based on what order the python code is evaluated? | 15:01 |
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| ayoung | sdague, OK, that makes sense. I see what it is doing now. I'm not thrilled with the name "Opt" as we have not been calling them Options thus far. | 15:10 |
| ayoung | And those are public interface, since that is what other apps are supposed to call in to create, right? | 15:11 |
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| sdague | alaski: ^^ | 15:12 |
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| ayoung | alaski, I like the general approach of the policy work, just a few questions on naming | 15:13 |
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| alaski | ayoung: yes, that is a public interface | 15:14 |
| alaski | I struggled with naming in general | 15:14 |
| alaski | Rule seemed too confusing | 15:14 |
| alaski | Policy as well, since we already call the components rule and/or policy | 15:14 |
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| alaski | I'm open to suggestions | 15:15 |
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| ayoung | alaski, so what do we call things thus far? THe term Rule is already dual purpose | 15:15 |
| ayoung | for example "identity:create_user" : "role:admin and proejct:admin" | 15:16 |
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| alaski | when a file is parsed it's put into a Rule object | 15:16 |
| ayoung | we would both call the whole thing a rule and the right hand side a rule | 15:16 |
| alaski | right | 15:16 |
| ayoung | so, lets agree that the whole thing is a rule. | 15:16 |
| ayoung | what you are really registering here is the target | 15:16 |
| ayoung | lets give that right hand side a better name, if only for now | 15:17 |
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| ayoung | RHS? | 15:17 |
| ayoung | Heh | 15:17 |
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| sdague | grant? | 15:17 |
| sdague | or is that already overloaded | 15:17 |
| ayoung | So a rule has a LHS:RHS form, which turns into a Rule when the policy is parsed | 15:17 |
| ayoung | grant is already overloaded | 15:18 |
| ayoung | what does Prolog call this? | 15:18 |
| alaski | I would naturally call it the policy, but that's also overloaded | 15:18 |
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| sdague | permit? allowance? | 15:18 |
| ayoung | A rule is of the form Head :- Body. | 15:18 |
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| sdague | I'm playing thesaurus games now | 15:18 |
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| alaski | definition? | 15:19 |
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| sdague | bequest? | 15:19 |
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| sdague | I was thinking mostly these are always things you are allowed to do | 15:19 |
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| ayoung | So it really is a Key Value setup, with the Key being the rule name, and the value being the rule logic | 15:20 |
| sdague | so the RHS having a word that means graning / allow | 15:20 |
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| sdague | ayoung: until we add more metadata | 15:20 |
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| ayoung | and the RHS can be built up by loking up other rules by their key | 15:20 |
| ayoung | inside the Policy we parse a rule and call it... | 15:21 |
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| alaski | ayoung: right, that's why currently I have the args as (name, rule) | 15:21 |
| ayoung | def __init__(self, kind, match): | 15:21 |
| sdague | ayoung: but this is the thing that describes the whole | 15:21 |
| ayoung | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslo.policy/tree/oslo_policy/_checks.py#n81 | 15:21 |
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| ayoung | sdague, so I think RuleDefinition is kindof OK | 15:21 |
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| sdague | PolicyAllowDefinition ? | 15:22 |
| ayoung | you can overwrite a definition with the file, but you can only initialize it once | 15:22 |
| sdague | because we never have negatives, right? | 15:22 |
| ayoung | really this call is doing two thins | 15:22 |
| sdague | this are always allows | 15:22 |
| alaski | ayoung: that's on the check object, so 'check' would be a consistent name to use | 15:22 |
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| ayoung | 1. Defining a Target and 2. Stating the default for a target | 15:23 |
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| ayoung | A rule is built out of checks | 15:24 |
| ayoung | so you could say rule = Target:Checks | 15:24 |
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| ayoung | So really the "only once" part is creating the Target | 15:24 |
| ayoung | sdague, the part you would want to catch is if two parts of the python code tried to register "compute:poweroff" right? | 15:25 |
| sdague | well, if 2 places in the code define the check | 15:26 |
| ayoung | Hmmmm....I could actually see that being allowable, but then throwing an exception if the Checks were different | 15:26 |
| sdague | because which one wins? | 15:26 |
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| ayoung | sdague, right, both should be allowed to say "I need this check" but then they better default to the same thing. THat can then be overwritten by a file | 15:26 |
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| ayoung | but for now, I think "HIghlander Syndrome" is appropriate | 15:27 |
| ayoung | alaski, so TargetDefault? | 15:27 |
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| ayoung | You don't need the work Policy in there, as it is all policy | 15:27 |
| ayoung | p = policy.TargetDefault(kwargs) | 15:27 |
| sdague | ayoung: so, I think the point is you really should have only 1 definition. Using a rule (calling Enforcer.authorize) happens everywhere | 15:28 |
| sdague | but you can't call that on unregistered policy | 15:28 |
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| ayoung | sdague, Yes, I can get behind that argument. | 15:28 |
| sdague | because that's part of what makes a ton of problems unsolvable today, that policy is ad hoc defined | 15:28 |
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| ayoung | And it does not matter if other places say "I need this rule" without specifying what it is, so long as it is defined "somewhere" | 15:29 |
| ayoung | really "I need this Target" | 15:29 |
| sdague | right | 15:29 |
| alaski | ayoung: I'm fine with TargetDefault | 15:29 |
| sdague | which is what alaski's stack is if I read it correctly | 15:30 |
| alaski | yes | 15:30 |
| sdague | if we just need a new name, that's cool | 15:30 |
| ayoung | Do we call it target? | 15:30 |
| sdague | just want to make sure we're good on the internals so we can get a name chosen and move it forward | 15:30 |
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| alaski | ayoung: right now it's PolicyOpt(name, rule, ...) but I can change it to TargetDefault(name, rule, ...) | 15:31 |
| alaski | or do you have concerns on name, rule? | 15:31 |
| ayoung | So...no target is the wrong term | 15:31 |
| ayoung | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslo.policy/tree/oslo_policy/policy.py#n542 | 15:31 |
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| ayoung | alaski, sorry to be a pain here...but we have to live with this. I'll be talking about it on stage for years, I am sure | 15:32 |
| sdague | PolicyRuleDefault, PolicyGrantDefault, PolicyAllowDefault, PolicyBequestDefault ? | 15:32 |
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| sdague | it is policy, and it is a default, I think we just need a reasonable middle word | 15:32 |
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| ayoung | OK, so we use rule to mean the name there: | 15:33 |
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| ayoung | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslo.policy/tree/oslo_policy/policy.py#n546 | 15:33 |
| alaski | I think we can drop Policy as it's in the policy module as ayoung pointed out | 15:33 |
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| ayoung | rule is the parameter we pass in. | 15:33 |
| sdague | alaski: as long as you don't put the class name in the repr | 15:33 |
| ayoung | so the functions should be register_rule and register_rules | 15:33 |
| sdague | it's kind of useful in those coses | 15:33 |
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| sdague | https://docs.python.org/2/library/pprint.html#pprint.PrettyPrinter | 15:34 |
| sdague | python likes to double up on naming | 15:34 |
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| ayoung | alaski, so RuleDefintion or Rule | 15:34 |
| alaski | sdague: that's fair. but what I did was to output just the name, rule input in the repr https://review.openstack.org/#/c/315712/2/oslo_policy/policy.py | 15:35 |
| sdague | alaski: yeh, but if you are in a debugger, and ask for classname | 15:35 |
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| sdague | anyway, that's minor if we can sort out other bits here | 15:36 |
| alaski | ayoung: Rule is already a class, it's the collection of rules used for enforcement. The naming in this module is already strange | 15:36 |
| ayoung | alaski, so only the code can register a Rule | 15:36 |
| ayoung | alaski, nope, that is Rules.... | 15:36 |
| alaski | sdague: agreed, I'm fine either way | 15:36 |
| ayoung | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslo.policy/tree/oslo_policy/policy.py#n299 | 15:36 |
| alaski | ayoung: ahh, right | 15:36 |
| sdague | RuleDefault ? | 15:36 |
| sdague | because, I think if we call something FooDefault | 15:37 |
| alaski | I'd rather not use Rule then and propagate confusion. RuleDefault or RuleDefinition | 15:37 |
| ayoung | I like Rule | 15:37 |
| ayoung | we make it so the code registers rules, and the files change the defaults | 15:37 |
| sdague | people will be less likely to think they can register it twice | 15:37 |
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| sdague | remembering that most of the people writing this code are going to be far from experts on oslo.policy, so every hint you can give them on doing it right is helpful | 15:38 |
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| alaski | sdague: I'm onboard with that | 15:38 |
| ayoung | sdague, and once we get this working, we add a switch that says "a rule must be Defined in code before it can be enforced" or something...we'll still need to allow the interim rules | 15:38 |
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| alaski | ayoung: my concern with Rule is also that Rules is not a collection of Rule objects | 15:38 |
| ayoung | I'm OK with RuleDefault, but I think I'd prefer Rule | 15:38 |
| ayoung | alaski, but it should be.... | 15:39 |
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| alaski | that would be a pretty big overhaul | 15:39 |
| ayoung | nah | 15:39 |
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| sdague | so then we conceptually have RuleDefaults and RuleOverrides (that can come from files, maybe other places). | 15:39 |
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| alaski | as right now Rules is a collection of checks | 15:39 |
| ayoung | sdague, I would argue that those are the same class, and we have different functions for managing collections of them | 15:40 |
| sdague | ok, so how about we agree on RuleDefault, that would let this move forward | 15:40 |
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| alaski | works for me | 15:40 |
| sdague | ayoung: except, you aren't going to overwrite description in an override, right? | 15:40 |
| sdague | the default is more than name & rule, it's more metadata | 15:40 |
| ayoung | sdague, RuleDefinition then? | 15:41 |
| sdague | the important thing is we don't box ourselves in | 15:41 |
| ayoung | where we provide a default? | 15:41 |
| sdague | ayoung: in code | 15:41 |
| ayoung | the params would be | 15:41 |
| ayoung | def __init__(self, name, default_checks, description=None): | 15:42 |
| ayoung | or just | 15:42 |
| ayoung | def __init__(self, name, checks, description=None): | 15:42 |
| alaski | checks implies we're passing in Check objects which is not the case | 15:42 |
| sdague | also, a non kwarg param can be changed later | 15:44 |
| alaski | I would go with 'policy' or 'rule' | 15:44 |
| sdague | so going with what's there right now, doesn't cost anything later if we want to change it. We should focus the naming on things that hurt if we have to change them | 15:45 |
| alaski | sure | 15:45 |
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| alaski | actually, 'value' might be good | 15:45 |
| ayoung | what is getting passed in there? | 15:45 |
| ayoung | its not JSON, is it? | 15:45 |
| alaski | the "rule:admin_or_owner" bit | 15:45 |
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| ayoung | alaski, in JSON format? | 15:47 |
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| sdague | ayoung, no, the json has been pulled appart already | 15:48 |
| alaski | ayoung: no. it's just the RHS of the json | 15:48 |
| sdague | this is just a string | 15:48 |
| alaski | or yaml | 15:48 |
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| alaski | sorry, yes just a string parsed from json or yaml | 15:49 |
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| ayoung | rule:admin_required or project_id:%(target.project.id)s | 15:52 |
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| alaski | so what would currently be '"compute:create": "rule:admin_or_owner"' in a policy file would be RuleDefault(name='compute:create', value='rule:admin_or_owner', description='blah') | 15:52 |
| ayoung | pre-parsed checks | 15:52 |
| alaski | yes | 15:52 |
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| alaski | otherwise a sample file can't be generated | 15:52 |
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| ayoung | checks_string or checks_default? | 15:53 |
| ayoung | I'm less worried about the param names | 15:53 |
| ayoung | but we abuse the term rule, so, I would be fine calling it checks_default and having the comment explain it is a string, not a check object | 15:54 |
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| alaski | sure, that's why I like value because it's not confusing | 15:54 |
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| alaski | but I'll rework the patches and we can see how things look | 15:55 |
| ayoung | alaski, one other thing | 15:55 |
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| ayoung | push the Exceptions up to the patches where they are raised | 15:55 |
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| ayoung | you define them in the base patch, and that threw me when looking at it | 15:56 |
| ayoung | I'm OK with squashing them, too, as I think you need the whole thing to be a unit | 15:56 |
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| ayoung | I do appreciate smaller==easier to review | 15:56 |
| alaski | yes, I like smaller patches | 15:57 |
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| alaski | I'll squash two together though | 15:57 |
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| alaski | actually three | 15:57 |
| alaski | leaving three reviews | 15:57 |
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| EmilienM | odyssey4me: hey | 16:19 |
| EmilienM | do we have meeting today or? | 16:19 |
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| stevemar | aloga: o/ | 16:34 |
| stevemar | aloga: thanks for all the openid patches! | 16:34 |
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| stevemar | aloga: the keystone folks are mostly in #openstack-keystone if you need to poke at us | 16:34 |
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| nikhil | stevemar: o/ | 16:35 |
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| nikhil | stevemar: I couldn't find tangchen_ online | 16:36 |
| stevemar | nikhil: he is offline during the day :( | 16:36 |
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| stevemar | nikhil: lives in china, so, sleeping now | 16:36 |
| nikhil | stevemar: gotcha. | 16:36 |
| nikhil | stevemar: can I follow up with you then? on stevemar: so trying to follow up with you on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/python-openstackclient/+spec/migrate-glanceclient-to-osc ? | 16:36 |
| stevemar | nikhil: also, i think he's traveling this weekend | 16:36 |
| stevemar | sure | 16:36 |
| nikhil | :) | 16:36 |
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| nikhil | ah ok | 16:36 |
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| stevemar | what questions do you have sir | 16:37 |
| nikhil | stevemar: I wanted us to avoid supporting images v1 API | 16:37 |
| nikhil | stevemar: we are planning to deprecate it as soon as nova moves to v2 fully | 16:37 |
| stevemar | nikhil: ah | 16:37 |
| nikhil | stevemar: it would be rather sad to support that in osc | 16:37 |
| nikhil | stevemar: I can comment this on the BP , not sure what process you follow | 16:38 |
| stevemar | nikhil: we have had v1 image support in osc for a while now (2 years?) | 16:38 |
| dtroyer | nikhil: we have to support it at least as long as it is available in a supported integrated release | 16:38 |
| stevemar | nikhil: it's easy enough for us to issue a deprecation message *shrugs* | 16:38 |
| dtroyer | and even then longer as just because a release is eol doesn't mean people stop using it | 16:38 |
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| nikhil | true that, people are still complaining about juno! | 16:39 |
| stevemar | but the work is already done, i see no reason to rip it out | 16:39 |
| nikhil | or even icehouse | 16:39 |
| nikhil | stevemar: dtroyer : noted. just trying to be extra cautious. people seem a bit.. disappointed with the transition. | 16:39 |
| dtroyer | the motivation to rip it out for me will be to dump the glanceclient dependency if the SDK doesn't support v1, even then | 16:39 |
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| dtroyer | I'll be sad | 16:39 |
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| dtroyer | people also seem to really not like v2 (we've talked about that already) | 16:40 |
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| * dtroyer cough warlock cough | 16:40 | |
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| dtroyer | happens to be what I am attempting to fix in our tests this minute | 16:40 |
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| nikhil | lol | 16:41 |
| nikhil | dtroyer: no one like warlock (even in glance) | 16:41 |
| dtroyer | I just found we've been testing v2 with the usual Resource object, so we're skipping things that didn't work due to not using warlock classes | 16:41 |
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| nikhil | it was bcwaldon's idea because it made sense then | 16:41 |
| briancurtin | dtroyer: sdk has some amount of both glance v2 and v1 (though I’m not really familiar with what is complete/missing at the moment) | 16:42 |
| dtroyer | I worked with him at the time, I remember the reactions | 16:42 |
| alaski | ayoung: I'm heading to lunch now, but see how https://review.openstack.org/#/c/313141/8 suits you | 16:42 |
| nikhil | briancurtin: any way we can avoid any further v1 support? | 16:42 |
| dtroyer | v1 is simple enough, I can fill in whatever SDK doesn't do. OSC already has some of that implemented | 16:42 |
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| nikhil | dtroyer: it's simple alright. it's too simple to be secure :D | 16:43 |
| briancurtin | nikhil: i mean we could just not do the work, but i’m not stopping anyone from that if they need it for something, e.g., for OSC | 16:43 |
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| nikhil | I want us to avoid further v1 support at all possible stages of development. We've downgraded the API to supported back in Kilo. http://docs.openstack.org/developer/glance/glanceapi.html#images-v1-api | 16:45 |
| briancurtin | nikhil: additionally, if people need v1 to talk to some cloud that only has v1 installed, i’m not going to stop them from being able to use it as well | 16:45 |
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| nikhil | briancurtin: all good things :) but if the right way of discouraging would be subtly reduce more support/functionality etc | 16:46 |
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| briancurtin | it’s not | 16:46 |
| nikhil | stevemar briancurtin: dtroyer : I'm trying to figure out a path for us where all the parties are happy because v1 isn't supported as much. The more we avoid it the easier it gets :) | 16:46 |
| stevemar | i'm totally good with filling in the spots where needed, and issuing deprecation messages | 16:46 |
| dtroyer | the right way is for it to not be deployed any more. when users don't have a coice, taking it out of the client means they have to get a different client | 16:46 |
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| dtroyer | inflicting this kind of pain on people who do not get to make the choice of what API is deployes is user abuse | 16:47 |
| briancurtin | bingo | 16:47 |
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| dtroyer | client != server | 16:47 |
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| nikhil | dtroyer: correct, so how can we get operators and users on the same page to set the right API? | 16:49 |
| nikhil | dtroyer: basically, we can safely assume that is a release isn't supported (i.e. it's stable branch isn't) then we move forward with not having it in osc ? | 16:49 |
| nikhil | s/is a/if a/ | 16:49 |
| dtroyer | not by throwing bricks or wet cats at users | 16:49 |
| dtroyer | nikhil: that is a minimum, not a maximum | 16:49 |
| dtroyer | when v1 is no longer available in a non-eol integrated release, then we can start talking about a timeline for removal from clients | 16:50 |
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| nikhil | dtroyer: it's a user operator relationship that has assumptions on what we are supporting in our code. I think we need to be stronger to send the message to both operators and user about some things are not in their best interest per say if not upgraded. | 16:50 |
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| nikhil | dtroyer: so let me ask a more explicit question: | 16:51 |
| nikhil | what should be the level of support on the API before we can deprecate it from all places? | 16:52 |
| dtroyer | deprecate or remove? | 16:52 |
| nikhil | SUPPORTED or DEPRECATED or something else | 16:52 |
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| dtroyer | honestly, I don't care about that difference. if it is there OSc is going to support it. removed in Ocata doesn't kill those using Liberty | 16:52 |
| dtroyer | the client timelines are very different from the server timelines | 16:53 |
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| nikhil | dtroyer: ok, so if Glance Deprecates v1 in Newton, we can start discussions in Ocata about slowly removing support? | 16:53 |
| dtroyer | if v1 were removed from the Newton release, we'd have this conversation in about 2 years | 16:53 |
| annegentle | dtroyer: nikhil: yeah this is over years time. | 16:53 |
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| nikhil | dtroyer: annegentle : let's say deprecated instead of removed ? | 16:54 |
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| annegentle | nikhil: deprecated, yeah. | 16:55 |
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| dtroyer | nikhil: it doesn't matter to clients. at the most, we'd throw a warning into stderr for deprecated | 16:55 |
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| annegentle | nikhil: for example, Block Storage v1 is listed as DEPRECATED http://developer.openstack.org/api-ref.html | 16:55 |
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| annegentle | nikhil: has been for years now | 16:55 |
| dtroyer | I may be alone in this, but I don't even like that immediately | 16:55 |
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| annegentle | dtroyer: which? :) | 16:56 |
| nikhil | annegentle: yeah, I'm worried this gunna stick around. trying to find a way to push people to move away from the sad v1 API. | 16:56 |
| dtroyer | deprecation warnings in the client at server api deprecation time | 16:56 |
| dtroyer | clients need to move line their feet are in tar WRT removing stuff | 16:57 |
| annegentle | dtroyer: yeah, pretty much not the clients world | 16:57 |
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| annegentle | nikhil: your first step is nova not ops right? | 16:57 |
| dtroyer | nikhil: focus on getting it out of deployemnts. | 16:57 |
| dtroyer | and other services ;) | 16:57 |
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| dtroyer | the demand goes away when there is no more supply | 16:58 |
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| nikhil | annegentle: atm it's nova. once nova moves away, then we've a few other ones including ops. | 16:58 |
| stevemar | nikhil: welcome to my world. i've been pushing people to v3 for 3 years | 16:58 |
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| nikhil | stevemar: gosh!!! | 16:59 |
| stevemar | nikhil: i've accepted that i will never remove certain APIs from keystone v2 (like auth) | 16:59 |
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| stevemar | its a slowwww grind | 16:59 |
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| stevemar | for exactly the reasons dtroyer says | 16:59 |
| nikhil | stevemar dtroyer: lol, that's a good meme for APIs :) | 16:59 |
| stevemar | lots of existing deployments aren't ready or willing to upgrade | 16:59 |
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| stevemar | but their users are going to use client tools like osc and the sdk, and expect them to work | 17:00 |
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| nikhil | yeah :/ | 17:00 |
| nikhil | stevemar: it almost feels like we're fighting this batter of most popular APIs vs. better performant. which many times ties to Public vs private. | 17:00 |
| nikhil | battle* | 17:00 |
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| odyssey4me | EmilienM as far as I've seen in terms of those responding to the etherpad or the emails, it's pretty much just you and me. :/ | 17:01 |
| nikhil | I am just worried about large scale deployments crying over not enough traction due to the same reasons | 17:01 |
| * stevemar shrugs | 17:01 | |
| stevemar | we can't break people, that's no bueno | 17:02 |
| stevemar | large deployments will upgrade when they can | 17:02 |
| EmilienM | odyssey4me: ok it's end of day for me (in europe this week) - can we catchup later? | 17:02 |
| nikhil | stevemar yes, that's understandable | 17:02 |
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| dtroyer | the other thing to keep in mind, there are many clients, most of which are not under any sort of even observation by OpenStack | 17:02 |
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| dtroyer | that's not an excuse to not clean up our act, but a reminder of how wide this problem is | 17:03 |
| nikhil | dtroyer: my worries on the support being added to different layer .. like the SDK which will have another set of client building over them! | 17:03 |
| nikhil | layers , clients ** | 17:03 |
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| dtroyer | ok, fair enough, but I have a goal of removing glanceclient, and if sdk doesn't do v1 then I'll do it in OSc directly (we have started already) | 17:05 |
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| nikhil | dtroyer: I think that sounds fair. | 17:06 |
| odyssey4me | EmilienM I'm in Europe anyway. Let's chat tomorrow and work something out. | 17:07 |
| nikhil | dtroyer: we (import refactor) team needs your insight on a few things :-) | 17:07 |
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| nikhil | dtroyer: let me link you to a review which would help a lot of folks from not speculating on the proposal and move sanely forward. Hence, your review is very much appreciated as you find time! | 17:08 |
| dtroyer | as you know, it is easy to get opinions out of me | 17:08 |
| EmilienM | odyssey4me: cool! | 17:08 |
| EmilienM | odyssey4me: I have a lot to share | 17:08 |
| EmilienM | odyssey4me: specially on Xenial and also on Ceph | 17:08 |
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| nikhil | dtroyer: people want your opinions. the earlier the better. I need all stakeholders fine with it and you are one of them as hinted by defcore folks. | 17:09 |
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| nikhil | dtroyer: I added you to the review directly, you should have received an email from jenkins ;-) | 17:11 |
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| clarkb | * from gerrit | 17:11 |
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| dtroyer | nikhil: I'll go search… I killfile those, there are too many | 17:12 |
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| nikhil | dtroyer: aight, ty! | 17:13 |
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| nikhil | clarkb: you are right. but my email says otherwise "Jenkins (Code Review) <review@openstack.org>" | 17:13 |
| clarkb | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318313/1/specs/mitaka/approved/image-import/image-import-refactor.rst ? | 17:13 |
| nikhil | dunno | 17:13 |
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| dtroyer | clarkb: that's one, the FAQ. the glance code is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/270980/ | 17:15 |
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| clarkb | kashyap: dtroyer one observation I have made recently of the current state of glance image imports using both normal PUT v2 and the rax task api is that both are "leaky". The client/user must know how and when it is safe to clean things up. For example on the PUT side you have to create the image before putting to it which means if the PUT fails you must also delete the image you created. On the rax | 17:24 |
| clarkb | task side the swift objects leak beacuse they are completely decoupled from glance after the initial import. Excet maybe they aren't. There is no communication of whether or not the life of the swift object must be the same as the life of the glance object. I do not know how or if new spec addresses this but that would make a good faq entry imo | 17:24 |
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| * kashyap reads the context | 17:25 | |
| clarkb | er | 17:25 |
| clarkb | kashyap: that is a bad highlight sorry | 17:25 |
| clarkb | nikhil: ^ | 17:25 |
| * clarkb crossed the highlight wires between channels | 17:25 | |
| kashyap | Ah, okay, then I can get back to making dinner | 17:26 |
| clarkb | nikhil: dtroyer: this is lessons learned doing 6 images * ~9 cloud region updates every day for the last few months | 17:31 |
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| nikhil | clarkb: if you could please provide a more explicit feedback on the spec, we would really appreciate it! | 17:44 |
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| nikhil | clarkb: the agreement was to provide a more discoverable API which exists today | 17:44 |
| nikhil | clarkb: and the API path to successfully import (advanced upload) of an image is schematized as in the spec :) | 17:44 |
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| nikhil | clarkb: for the new import, cleaning up can be done client side. if you can give us hints on the pain points, that's achievable at this point ;-) | 17:45 |
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| nikhil | oops not client side --- I meant 'Glance side' | 17:46 |
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| clarkb | it can be done client side too, the current problem is the lack of communication. Most users probbly don't know it needs to be done (I didn't until recently) and you don't know how to do it safely | 17:46 |
| nikhil | clarkb: so the take away is more documentation on best practices ? | 17:47 |
| clarkb | personally I would prefer the api make it a non issue but I think the ship has largely sailed on that | 17:47 |
| clarkb | eg don't have a two step PUT process, just one step | 17:47 |
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| clarkb | if it fails glance cleans up and client never cares | 17:47 |
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| dtroyer | clarkb: if the API can't do that, do we have enough information for OSC to do it? | 17:48 |
| dtroyer | I'm planning to hide absolutely as much of that as possible so the users get's a single=step import if at all possible | 17:49 |
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| clarkb | dtroyer: yes I think there is sufficient info for clients to handle it as long as they don't lose state midway through it. EG power outage or kernel panic | 17:49 |
| dtroyer | sure, I can live with that I think. coolness | 17:50 |
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| nikhil | clarkb: as much as we would like to, that's not possible on one step image import/activation | 17:53 |
| nikhil | clarkb: more so, as glance needs to support the nova way of snapshot creation | 17:54 |
| nikhil | clarkb: first the compute creates a record and then the virt driver does it's magic before uploading | 17:54 |
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| nikhil | clarkb: all those things are not brought into light into a small discussion :) | 17:55 |
| clarkb | nikhil: you could keep the existing stuff for backward compat, then add the new less broken thing, then change nova | 17:55 |
| clarkb | anyways I am writing up a comment on that change | 17:55 |
| nikhil | clarkb: change nova :P | 17:55 |
| nikhil | clarkb: lol | 17:55 |
| nikhil | clarkb: still laughing | 17:55 |
| nikhil | clarkb: it took almost 3 years to port nova go from v1 to v2 :P | 17:55 |
| clarkb | ok, you may find it funny but it isn't very productive | 17:55 |
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| nikhil | clarkb: tell me about it | 17:56 |
| nikhil | clarkb: ima being a practical here | 17:56 |
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| clarkb | as probably one of the bigger users of glance (I think we upload about half a terabyte of image per day) its really frustrating | 17:56 |
| nikhil | clarkb: I know!!!!!!!!!! | 17:56 |
| nikhil | hence the better API | 17:57 |
| nikhil | which never picked | 17:57 |
| nikhil | up* | 17:57 |
| nikhil | clarkb: the tasks API was supposed to help with all that s*****t | 17:57 |
| clarkb | except it made it worse :) | 17:57 |
| nikhil | anyway, I will shutup here else we're gunna have another troll session | 17:57 |
| clarkb | eh not trying to troll, I juts have new infos from recent debugging of our use of glance | 17:58 |
| nikhil | clarkb: that's because people kept arguing over it rather than mkaing it better | 17:58 |
| clarkb | wanted to share and I am writing comment on change | 17:58 |
| nikhil | clarkb: and now we've same situation with the new proposal :P | 17:58 |
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| nikhil | clarkb: ok, perfect. more (explicit) feedback, the better. | 17:58 |
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| clarkb | nikhil: and done | 18:04 |
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| nikhil | clarkb: woot! | 18:07 |
| nikhil | clarkb: ok to ping you for more feedback here? may be once a week to keep things in sync? | 18:07 |
| clarkb | sure | 18:07 |
| nikhil | (that's max -- once a week. I may never ping back :P ) | 18:07 |
| nikhil | clarkb: k, thanks much! | 18:08 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/governance: Add CloudKitty/Sahara repos to OpenStack-Ansible https://review.openstack.org/317936 | 18:19 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/governance: Add CloudKitty/Sahara repos to OpenStack-Ansible https://review.openstack.org/317936 | 18:26 |
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| ameade | got a simple devstack patch I need merged soon: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/316144/ | 19:34 |
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| mhickey | sigmavirus24: Hey | 19:59 |
| sigmavirus24 | Hi mhickey | 20:00 |
| mhickey | sigmavirus24: How are things? | 20:00 |
| sigmavirus24 | Not bad, you? | 20:01 |
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| mhickey | sigmavirus24: all good; coming to end of day! | 20:01 |
| sigmavirus24 | Awesome | 20:01 |
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| mhickey | sigmavirus24: Anything happening with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/309527/ at the moment? | 20:01 |
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| sigmavirus24 | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | 20:02 |
| sigmavirus24 | waiting on requirements cores | 20:02 |
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| sigmavirus24 | mhickey: just pinged some cores about it | 20:03 |
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| mhickey | sigmavirus24: deadly, thanks you. :-) | 20:03 |
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| sigmavirus24 | mhickey: should be approved | 20:08 |
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| mhickey | sigmavirus24: Saw that. That is pretty fast moving! Thanks dims and dhellmann. :-) | 20:10 |
| mhickey | dims_: ^ | 20:11 |
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| mhickey | sigmavirus24: have a good evening | 20:11 |
| sigmavirus24 | You too mhickey | 20:11 |
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