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| openstackgerrit | vikram.choudhary proposed openstack/governance: Adding neutron-dynamic-routing as a part of neutron governance project. https://review.openstack.org/268727 | 04:22 |
|---|---|---|
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| openstackgerrit | vikram.choudhary proposed openstack/governance: Adding neutron-dynamic-routing as part of neutron governance project https://review.openstack.org/268727 | 04:23 |
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| cartik | hi im getting CRITICAL neutron [-] ImportError: No module named oslo.middleware, while trying to update my existing env ro mitaka | 06:20 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Add openstack/designate-tempest to Designate project https://review.openstack.org/301218 | 12:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Mark Sahara as support-upgrade https://review.openstack.org/301301 | 12:04 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Mark Sahara as follows deprecation policy https://review.openstack.org/301306 | 12:04 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Add openstack/monasca-transform project https://review.openstack.org/301313 | 12:04 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: glance_store is vulnerability managed https://review.openstack.org/301315 | 12:05 |
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| cdent | mordred: am I wrong to think that last night's tc meeting was kind of depressing in the sense that nobody seemed to want to own or define openstack's identity. neither the board nor the tc? | 13:28 |
| mordred | cdent: I did not get that from it? | 13:29 |
| cdent | Huh. I found the discussion more than a little bit disturbing, but maybe there was some nuance I was missing. | 13:30 |
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| cdent | My take away was a) nobody knows what openstack _is_ b) nobody "in power" seems to want to own that | 13:30 |
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| mordred | cdent: I think the desire exists in both places, and actually both groups share a lot of the same thoughts - however, figuring out the best way to express it is not quick or easy given how we've structured the project | 13:30 |
| mordred | cdent: yah, I do not think that is the case | 13:31 |
| cdent | Yes, the structuring does make for some interesting boundary problems. | 13:31 |
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| mordred | cdent: I think the folks 'in power' are trying to figure out the best way to express things such that they are received well and acted upon | 13:31 |
| cdent | maybe there should be more frequent updates? | 13:32 |
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| mordred | seemingly simple statements like "nova delivering bare metal resources is super important" - which is disagreed by literally nobody at the board level, become controversial at the tech level | 13:32 |
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| cdent | mordred: I think the apparent lack of transparency and free flow of info is more damaging than the controversy raised by sharing incomplete idea | 13:33 |
| cdent | s | 13:33 |
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| cdent | but then I'm a bit of a hippy like that | 13:34 |
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| mordred | cdent: do you have suggestions on how to increase the transparency? (I'm assuming you're talking board there) | 13:34 |
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| cdent | mordred: that's a good question. I'm almost completely unaware of how to track the board, but that may be entirely because of ignorance of how to dos. | 13:35 |
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| cdent | But also the aforementioned bounding makes me unclear on how much the board should be driving the tc and how much the tc should be driving the board and how much either should be driving openstack at large. | 13:36 |
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| mordred | yah. well, neithre the board nor the tc are empowered to drive each other - they are separate but equal bodies | 13:36 |
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| mordred | we can definitely work on making it easier to learn how to track to the board - some of us may have forgotten that we have a bunch of pre-existing knowledge, so there's likely a missing | 13:37 |
| mordred | "so you wanna follow stuff" | 13:37 |
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| mordred | the final thing - "how much either should be driving openstack at large" is one of the current big open questions | 13:38 |
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| mordred | I think everyone is in agreement that "more than currently" is part of the answer | 13:38 |
| cdent | yes, yes please | 13:38 |
| mordred | but actioning that is complex | 13:38 |
| cdent | especially since actioning isn't a word | 13:38 |
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| mordred | yup | 13:39 |
| mordred | that's what makes it hard | 13:39 |
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| cdent | :) | 13:39 |
| mordred | we're big enough that corporate crapspeak happens :) | 13:39 |
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| cdent | this is good, thanks for the info, and keep fighting the good fight and all that | 13:39 |
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| jroll | cdent: I think yesterday's meeting was more of "holy cow, let's not talk about that with 10 minutes left" :P | 13:40 |
| mordred | cdent: if you don't already have travel booked that is conflicting - the board meets the sunday before the summit, and there is a joint tc/board thing starting at 2:30 I think ... both are open to the public | 13:40 |
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| mordred | jroll: ++ | 13:40 |
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| cdent | jroll: I thought it came up much earlier, but okay | 13:40 |
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| cdent | mordred: sadily I'm not at summit this time around | 13:41 |
| mordred | boo | 13:41 |
| cdent | otherwise I'd totally go | 13:41 |
| jroll | cdent: nah, open discussion happened with 10m left | 13:41 |
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| mordred | "what is an openstack application" has at least two staunchly divergent camps - the ones who are chasing cloud-native 12-factor devs, and the ones who are more focused on openstack as providing infrastructure that works more traditionally but through an API | 13:42 |
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| cdent | jroll: just to be pedantic my fear and dread started before here at the 19 minute mark: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-04-12-20.01.log.html#l-182 | 13:42 |
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| cdent | (russellb's comment is sort of the landmark) | 13:42 |
| jroll | cdent: oh, that one | 13:42 |
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| cdent | but there was stuff before that too | 13:43 |
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| mordred | I happen to be in the camp that thinks that we _can_ do both at the same time - but that k8s and friends are much better homes for 12 factor and we should focus on computers | 13:43 |
| jroll | right, the "what is openstack" question, not "what is an openstack application" question | 13:43 |
| mordred | but I haven't convinced eveyrone yet | 13:43 |
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| mordred | well - and the confusion that big tent is not a defintion of what openstack-the-product is | 13:43 |
| mordred | but an answer to the question "who are openstack the people" | 13:43 |
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| cdent | mordred: in your copious free time it would be great if you could write up the history of that split and your thoughts on keeping it joined | 13:44 |
| mordred | cdent: sure! | 13:44 |
| jroll | mordred: I'm in a similar camp in that we can do both, but we should make our IaaS good/best before we focus on SaaS-y things | 13:44 |
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| mordred | jroll: well, I'm actually more referring to the IaaS side | 13:44 |
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| mordred | because there is IaaS-that-pretends-to-be-12-factor - and there is IaaS-that-looks-like-computers | 13:44 |
| jroll | mordred: oh, so you think we should focus on a subset of the IaaS stuff? | 13:44 |
| jroll | yeah | 13:44 |
| cdent | I'm sure at least some people fear that the time it will take to get "good" iaas is long enough to expire into irrelevancy | 13:45 |
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| mordred | I think we should not pretend that 12 factor devs are going to target openstack _ever_ | 13:45 |
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| mordred | because they're not | 13:45 |
| mordred | ever | 13:45 |
| mordred | going to target openstack | 13:45 |
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| jroll | until the openstack PaaS happens | 13:45 |
| mordred | however, people running frameworks that 12 factor devs are going to target need to run non-12 factor apps, such as the k8s control plane | 13:45 |
| mordred | and we're EXCELLENT for that | 13:45 |
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| jroll | (I call PaaS the "other side" of IaaS that you're talking about) | 13:45 |
| mordred | cdent: but we have "good" iaas right now | 13:46 |
| mordred | cdent: what we don't have is "Good" 12 factor platform | 13:46 |
| cdent | /me isn't so sure | 13:46 |
| mordred | API inconsistencies around image uploading and attaching IPs to vms notwithstanding | 13:46 |
| cdent | heh | 13:47 |
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| mordred | when you remove the outlier clouds from the picture, there is actually a very clear set of "this is how it works" and it works pretty darned well | 13:47 |
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| mordred | _and_ works remarkably consistently given lack of strong-armed direction | 13:47 |
| mordred | one or two snowflakes notwithstanding | 13:47 |
| jroll | and yet aws and google are the winning public clouds | 13:47 |
| jroll | always | 13:47 |
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| mordred | that's a very US centric view | 13:48 |
| jroll | that may be unrelated to openstack's goodness | 13:48 |
| jroll | oh? | 13:48 |
| cdent | I think a lot of interpretation is biased by the challenges/difficulties in openstack the development community (people who make openstack not use it) | 13:48 |
| mordred | aws and google are winning public clouds via the lens of silicon valley | 13:48 |
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| cdent | s/interpretation/my interpretation/ | 13:48 |
| mordred | cdent: yup | 13:48 |
| cdent | e.g. zomg, maintenance nightmare | 13:48 |
| mordred | there are _many_ openstack public clouds, some run by as few as 5 people | 13:49 |
| mordred | and they are taking advantage of one of the things that AWS and Google can literally never do | 13:49 |
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| mordred | which is have multiple providers, some specific to country geographies | 13:49 |
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| mordred | elastx is a great example here - they run a public cloud in the czech republic | 13:50 |
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| mordred | I'm sorry, I misspoke - ultimum is the one in czech republic | 13:51 |
| jroll | mordred: interesting, good to know | 13:51 |
| jroll | I haven't tried many, but my experience has been poor | 13:51 |
| mordred | jroll: yah. we don't hear much about international clouds from the likes of gartner | 13:51 |
| jroll | rackspace is basically not even nova | 13:52 |
| jroll | so it's difficult to use | 13:52 |
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| mordred | yah. I include rackspace in the snowflake bucket above, sadly | 13:52 |
| jroll | I couldn't convince ovh to give me api access | 13:52 |
| mordred | no? I have an ovh account and it works well | 13:52 |
| mordred | I recommend poking at vexxhost and citycloud | 13:52 |
| jroll | yeah, auth didn't work, then I found a page to add an api user to my project, and that button didn't work | 13:52 |
| mordred | jroll: heh. nice. to be fair, the ovh guys made me my account before it was public, so I may have skipped an onboarding step there | 13:53 |
| jroll | heh | 13:53 |
| mordred | jroll: vexxhost is based in canada, has the same prices as amazon - and mnaser, their CEO, hangs out in the infra channel :) | 13:53 |
| jroll | anyway, good to learn that openstack public clouds are doing well outside of US | 13:54 |
| jroll | nice! | 13:54 |
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| mordred | that reminds me - I need to go get an account on zetta.io so I can add it to os-client-config vendors | 13:55 |
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| mordred | jroll: also, don't forget that internap has an openstack cloud now - they might have a non-zero amount of presence and market penetration | 13:58 |
| mordred | and the new versoin of dreamhost's dreamcompute is _awesome_ | 13:59 |
| jroll | nice | 13:59 |
| mordred | (especially now that it does networking the happymaking way) | 13:59 |
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| anteaya | cdent: many of the board meetings during the year offer a telephone number so you you can dial in and listen | 14:02 |
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| anteaya | cdent: I have done so in the past, when time permits and it has been educational | 14:02 |
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| cdent | anteaya: do they publish minutes anywhere regularly and officially? | 14:02 |
| anteaya | cdent: it might be possible that there is a telephone number for you to dial into the joint board/tc meeting | 14:02 |
| anteaya | cdent: oh they have to | 14:02 |
| clarkb | yes the email them to one of the lists and post meeting details on the wiki | 14:03 |
| anteaya | cdent: do you know about this mailing list? http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation-board | 14:03 |
| cdent | anteaya: yes | 14:04 |
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| cdent | clarkb, anteaya: The issue is that it is all a bit sort of folklore-ish. You have to know to ask, and then you have to know where to look, it's not a part of the regular flow. | 14:04 |
| cdent | That seems unfortutunate somehow. | 14:05 |
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| cdent | (so does my typing) | 14:05 |
| clarkb | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2016-April/002325.html | 14:05 |
| anteaya | cdent: this should also be useful: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation#OpenStack_Board_of_Director_Meetings | 14:05 |
| cdent | anteaya: yes, it is, thank you | 14:05 |
| anteaya | cdent: you are welcome | 14:05 |
| anteaya | well part of it is that the definition of "the regular flow" differs from person to person | 14:06 |
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| anteaya | so if you have a way of integrating this information into the regular flow that is great | 14:06 |
| anteaya | also | 14:06 |
| cdent | anteaya: indeed that is very true. I tend towards the "GIVE ME A GIANT FIREHOSE" end of the spectrum | 14:07 |
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| anteaya | I have never ever felt that asking questions shouldn't be part of the regular flow | 14:07 |
| clarkb | that and any participation in anything tends to require proactive involvement | 14:07 |
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| anteaya | cdent: that is good to know | 14:07 |
| anteaya | clarkb: ++ | 14:07 |
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| cdent | clarkb: I'm unable to parse that? | 14:08 |
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| anteaya | cdent: he is saying having to ask is part of the regular flow | 14:08 |
| clarkb | of life | 14:08 |
| anteaya | proactive involvement == asking in the way I read that sentence | 14:08 |
| anteaya | clarkb: indeed | 14:08 |
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| clarkb | to do anything you have to proactively participate | 14:08 |
| cdent | a) yes, b) it's useful as a community to proactively enable participation by increasing transparency | 14:09 |
| anteaya | sure that is fine | 14:09 |
| anteaya | where are we not being transparent? | 14:09 |
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| cdent | Well if you roll back up the log I think it is clear that a lot of people are unclear about and/or unaware of the efforts by both the board and the tc to improve influence over the direction of openstack. | 14:11 |
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| anteaya | folks are unclear about a lot of things | 14:11 |
| cdent | hah, yeah | 14:11 |
| anteaya | that doesn't necessarily mean we are not transparent | 14:11 |
| anteaya | for instance | 14:11 |
| anteaya | just yesterday I worked with a third party operator who was having difficulty | 14:11 |
| anteaya | took them into the infra channel with me | 14:12 |
| anteaya | told them that they had to specify that when they ask questions about their tooling that they specify it is there tooling not ours | 14:12 |
| anteaya | then they asked a question once in the infra channel which on first appearance looked they they were asking about a bug in our tooling | 14:12 |
| anteaya | I was transparent, they were unclear | 14:13 |
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| anteaya | their not being clear had nothing to do with my ablity to be transparent or not | 14:13 |
| anteaya | now | 14:13 |
| anteaya | if I am not being transparent, do tell me and I will work harder | 14:13 |
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| anteaya | or if you see an instance of something not being transparent do say something | 14:13 |
| anteaya | and of course suggestions are welcome | 14:14 |
| cdent | I am, and I do. | 14:14 |
| anteaya | yes, you do and that's great, thank you | 14:14 |
| cdent | and thank you | 14:14 |
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| anteaya | but just because someone is unclear does not mean the fault lies with the person or group that is trying to explain | 14:14 |
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| cdent | anteaya: I'm not trying to assign blame to anyone or anything here | 14:15 |
| anteaya | the person recieveing has a respsonsbility to try to listen to what is being offered | 14:15 |
| anteaya | cdent: no I get that | 14:15 |
| cdent | In fact I think the situation is almost entirely blameless | 14:15 |
| cdent | the issues are structural | 14:15 |
| anteaya | you are looking for ways to ensure clarity | 14:15 |
| anteaya | and clarity is a great goal | 14:15 |
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| anteaya | I think the issues are more nebulous than structural personally | 14:16 |
| anteaya | but the first manifestation upon which we can build agreement is the structure | 14:16 |
| cdent | However, I do think that there needs to be greater acknowledgment that there _are_ issues. | 14:16 |
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| cdent | and unfortunately that is not something that can be done once and declared done | 14:16 |
| anteaya | one of the hard parts to understand about openstack is that our greatest failings are also our greatest strengths | 14:16 |
| cdent | it is a permanent state of affairs | 14:16 |
| anteaya | yes, it is | 14:16 |
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| anteaya | and benefits from being discussed | 14:17 |
| cdent | this is useful, and thank you, but I need to dash | 14:17 |
| anteaya | cdent: yup, thanks for the chat | 14:17 |
| cdent | I have a 3pm thing that I'm late for :) | 14:17 |
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| anteaya | cdent: if you are looking for more board artifacts and can't find them, do ask | 14:17 |
| anteaya | someone will know how to find them | 14:18 |
| anteaya | cdent: travel safely | 14:18 |
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| clarkb | ya I have no problem with making it easier to participate. but I wanted to avoid the implication that participation somehow magically happens | 14:31 |
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| anteaya | it is a relationship, not a product | 14:38 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: do you happen to know how to add a custom font file into a sphinx build process? | 14:56 |
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| TrevorV | Hey anyone active in here that can help with someone trying to sign the ICLA and getting an error upon submission? | 15:21 |
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| clarkb | TrevorV: sure, can you make sure you have followed the steps in http://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/developers.html#getting-started | 15:22 |
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| dhellmann | sdague : I may have an example, let me poke around | 15:25 |
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| dhellmann | sdague : I think you just add it as a static file, then reference it from the stylesheet | 15:25 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: ok, so it just ends up in _static | 15:25 |
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| sdague | I think I get it now | 15:26 |
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| sdague | the crux being that this is using bootstrap, which assumes a certain structure | 15:27 |
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| TrevorV | Oh clarkb its not for me, its for a colleague who is trying to sign on to contribute. Basically he's filled out the form correctly, but after typing "I AGREE" and submitting it responds saying "Cannot store contact details" | 15:27 |
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| sdague | guess I'll just have to do search/replace on the minimized css | 15:28 |
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| clarkb | TrevorV: usually thats related to account setup. That document should cover what is rewuired | 15:28 |
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| dhellmann | sdague : yeah, and then you'd do something like this in your template: {{ pathto('_static/path/to/font/file', 1) }} | 15:30 |
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| TrevorV | clarkb I verified that he completed all the previous steps in the document. I'll look through your link again real quick and double check. | 15:30 |
| TrevorV | Yeah clarkb that's the same link. | 15:30 |
| clarkb | TrevorV: specifically not having a foundation account or not having details match in gerrit and foundation account cause that error | 15:31 |
| sdague | dhellmann: it turns out, this is deeply embedded in the bootstrap.css itself | 15:31 |
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| clarkb | TrevorV: the requirements for these things should be in that doc | 15:31 |
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| TrevorV | Alright clarkb we'll take a closer look | 15:31 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: maybe https://pypi.python.org/pypi/sphinx-bootstrap-theme/ would be useful? | 15:32 |
| sdague | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/305358/ | 15:32 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: I think that's probably going to just generate more work | 15:32 |
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| sdague | as then that theme needs to be retooled to be like the oslosphinx base | 15:33 |
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| dhellmann | sdague : yeah, what you have there looks legit | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | the diff is ugly, though | 15:33 |
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| Frito | clarkb: TrevorV is helping me onboard. The submission error even happens when trying to update the contact information (even without the ICLA). | 15:38 |
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| clarkb | yes | 15:38 |
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| auggy | sdague_: thanks for picking up that actions thing! i think that was my next step was to figure out how much of that tree we *actually* needed | 16:55 |
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| agentle | sdague_: thanks for the ML post! I've emailed individual project API liaisons to make sure they plan for migration this release | 16:57 |
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| sdague_ | auggy: yeh, I stuck my debugger on it this morning, but actuall found I needed print debugging to see the pattern :) | 17:00 |
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| auggy | sdague_: i was printing out too, those xmls nodes are nasty | 17:00 |
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| sdague_ | http://docs-draft.openstack.org/58/305358/1/check/gate-nova-api-ref/9ae5bc9//api-ref/build/html/ the font css is even fixed there | 17:01 |
| auggy | oh nice! | 17:01 |
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| sdague_ | so, I think the next thing to do is figure out some launchpad code to build a bunch of bugs with specific enough instructions so that we can fan out the content work | 17:03 |
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| sdague_ | I'm a bit in and out over the next couple of hours | 17:10 |
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| sdague_ | but we should resync this afternoon to pick up next steps. I'm just chugging on sphinx ext fixes right now. | 17:30 |
| auggy | sdague_: ok cool | 17:30 |
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| auggy | sdague_: should i see about creating something to auto log bugs based on those missing pieces? | 17:43 |
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| auggy | we can also discuss that further to see the best way to do that, i know agentle has a screen scraper tool that offers some comparison statistics | 17:44 |
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| agentle | auggy: sdague_: what's the command line now for wadl2rst? I have to indicate an output file? | 18:35 |
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| auggy | agentle: the command line you can use is tox -e api | 18:40 |
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| auggy | agentle: it should specify nova.yaml as part of the tox config | 18:41 |
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| agentle | auggy: oh right. ok. but I want to make and specify another yaml, keystone.yaml. There seems to be a lot of nova-specifics here now. Bummed. | 18:46 |
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| agentle | like for the index.rst -- we will need to make that configurable | 18:46 |
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| agentle | I'll keep poking at it | 18:47 |
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| agentle | like a bear with a stick hehe | 18:47 |
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| auggy | hahaah like a pooh bear with a stick and a bee hive | 18:49 |
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| auggy | agentle: yeah we can probably change the directive in that tox thing, i think the idea was just to figure out what we needed for nova and then we can adapt to something more generic or per-project specific | 18:50 |
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| agentle | auggy: okay. Really Karen's right, fairy-slipper has about the same "mostly" done, just need to get templates that match what are in wadl2rst. | 18:54 |
| agentle | auggy: I can look at that | 18:54 |
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| auggy | agentle: sure, let me know if you need me to look at anything | 18:55 |
| auggy | i had tried running the fairy slipper stuff and never got it working locally for me | 18:55 |
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| auggy | but i didn't spend a ton of time on it | 18:55 |
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| sdague_ | agentle: right, so to get to the last mile I hard coded in a few things | 19:03 |
| sdague_ | but, that should at least be clear what you'd want to parametrize out | 19:03 |
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| agentle | sdague_: ok, yep. | 19:06 |
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| sdague_ | auggy: you want to jump on hangouts to talk about fanning out bugs? | 19:07 |
| agentle | sdague_: is the idea that people will run fairy-slipper for their params? I think I left that out of the doc I wrote up. | 19:07 |
| auggy | yeah! | 19:07 |
| sdague_ | agentle: right now, yeh | 19:07 |
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| agentle | sdague_: okie. | 19:08 |
| agentle | I need to revise instructions | 19:08 |
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| agentle | sdague: oh I never knew the .inc trick | 19:47 |
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| sdague | agentle: yeh, it gets past all the rst double warnings | 19:48 |
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| sdague | we have to try to figure out a way to get down to zero warnings so we can make warnings errors on the jobs and make them vote | 19:48 |
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| agentle | nice | 19:51 |
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| sdague | agentle: if you wanted to figure out the last bit of the publish pipeline so we actually publish some where real on the post job, that would be cool | 19:52 |
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| agentle | sdague: ok, on it | 20:00 |
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| auggy | it's funny, pycharm keeps thinking the .inc files are Pascal hahah | 20:02 |
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| auggy | like wow there's a language i haven't touched since like what, MacOS 9??? | 20:02 |
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| bknudson | global-requirements has both decorator and wrapt, which seem to do the same thing | 20:55 |
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| bknudson | decorator seems to be more common | 20:56 |
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| dmsimard | Wow, a change from 2014 just merged https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103368/ stevemar you guys are persistent. :D | 23:10 |
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| stevemar | dmsimard: :) | 23:30 |
| stevemar | dmsimard: it needed the config options *not* in each project | 23:30 |
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