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| amrith | has anyone noticed not getting some emails that were sent to the openstack-dev mailing list ... I've checked all the usual things, spam folder and the like. Still missing. Anyone else seen this kind of thing? | 00:35 |
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| anteaya | sometimes your provider can bounce your emails | 00:41 |
| anteaya | and then you get removed from the list | 00:41 |
| anteaya | ask in infra and provide your email address and if there is a list admin they might be able to check the logs | 00:41 |
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| amrith | anteaya, I'm still on the list. | 00:46 |
| amrith | I've got other emails | 00:46 |
| amrith | the one email that I didn't receive (literally, one) is the one that mriedem sent re: stable PTL | 00:46 |
| amrith | I just looked at the list on the ML website and reconciled with our mail server's message trace | 00:46 |
| amrith | others in my company got that mail | 00:46 |
| amrith | Only one person didn't, ... me. | 00:47 |
| amrith | very odd. | 00:47 |
| anteaya | I'm saying say so in infra | 00:47 |
| anteaya | and perhaps someone with email admin abilities can look it up | 00:47 |
| amrith | yes, will wander over to infra now ... | 00:47 |
| anteaya | I don't have email admin permissions | 00:47 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/governance: Add Designate & Zaqar roles to OpenStack-Ansible Project https://review.openstack.org/292335 | 09:17 |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: Gerrit is going to be restarted | 11:13 | |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: Gerrit had to be restarted because was not responsive. As a consequence, some of the test results have been lost, from 08:30 UTC to 10:30 UTC approximately. Please recheck any affected jobs by this problem. | 11:32 | |
| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: Gerrit had to be restarted because was not responsive. As a consequence, some of the test results have been lost, from 09:30 UTC to 11:30 UTC approximately. Please recheck any affected jobs by this problem. | 11:35 | |
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| openstackgerrit | Oleg Gelbukh proposed openstack/governance: Add fuel-octane and tuning-box repos https://review.openstack.org/291380 | 12:10 |
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| dansmith | thingee: hmm, I made a bunch of comments on something else of his and hadn't seen this spec yet.. I guess the other thing was a user story (per sdague's comments)? | 13:31 |
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| tenaglia | hi all | 13:52 |
| tenaglia | I'm trying to sign the ICLA at https://review.openstack.org/#/settings/new-agreement but I get "Server Error - Cannot store contact information". How can I get this through? | 13:52 |
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| tenaglia | OK nevermind it works now. | 14:15 |
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| cdent | sdague: you're harshing my mellow, but not in an unpleasant fashion | 14:26 |
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| cdent | sdague: basically on where the boundaries of "the community" are and should be | 14:30 |
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| mriedem | jamespage: i'm assuming that ceph backport for trusty is not yet available? https://bugs.launchpad.net/cinder/+bug/1551305 | 14:31 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1551305 in ceph (Ubuntu Trusty) "backup service crashes in ceph job with "pure virtual method called"" [Critical,In progress] - Assigned to Chris Holcombe (xfactor973) | 14:31 |
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| sdague | cdent: sure, I'm trying to be firm on the fact that we don't move forward if we keep context switching venues | 14:33 |
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| sdague | and requests that look like that need to be pushed back on by policy. If there is a reason someone is raising an exception to the TC for change of venue for a problem, there should be good justification on it. | 14:34 |
| sdague | otherwise we just get and encourage a stream of "in magical fairy land networks should work like this" at the TC instead of working with the community that understands the ground game on that one. | 14:34 |
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| madhuri | Hi I am trying to setup devstack | 14:38 |
| madhuri | But getting error "ovs-ofctl: br-int is not a bridge or a socket" | 14:38 |
| madhuri | Can anyone please help? | 14:38 |
| openstackgerrit | Dan Smith proposed openstack/governance: Add testing requirement to assert:supports-upgrade tag https://review.openstack.org/292918 | 14:39 |
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| cdent | sdague: that all makes sense, but there could be an argument to be made that the nova scheduler team is far too attached and embedded within the concept of scheduling vms, rather than scheduling stuff. Nova is _super_ conservative. I personally think the chance of there being a separate scheduler (and in fact much improvement in nova in general) is much higher if it the work is started outside of nova, but availing i | 14:45 |
| cdent | experience of nova | 14:45 |
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| cdent | As a community it sure seems like we tend to take lessons from failures (as in "well we don't do that again" without thinking enough about the root cause reasons for the failures. | 14:47 |
| cdent | Mind you this is all based on my relatively naive and fresh view, but sometimes that's useful. | 14:47 |
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| sdague | I think that attempt crashed and burned once already | 14:48 |
| cdent | Yes, that's my point. So now we will never ever ever do it that way again. | 14:48 |
| sdague | starting from working code means there is a better change of having working code at the end | 14:48 |
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| cdent | Not saying don't start from existing code. | 14:48 |
| cdent | (nor saying that it should) | 14:49 |
| sdague | so the question is where we put the burden of effort | 14:49 |
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| cdent | yes, that is frequently the question and one "we" (whoever that is) fail to answer effectively | 14:50 |
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| sdague | in all those cases I fall back to standard open source economics, new contributors need to level up to existing activities and work within that system. Anything else basically immediately becomes tragedy of the commons as you over commit your key experts having to engage with folks with wild ideas that will never follow through. | 14:52 |
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| cdent | sdague: Do you really, and I ask this in all seriousness, think that "standard open source economics" is in operation in the kind of entersource that OpenStack is? | 14:53 |
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| sdague | I think it's as good a model as exists for our resource allocations. | 14:57 |
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| cdent | Interesting. I'll have to think on that, because I think it is probably the main difference in our analytic toolkits. | 14:58 |
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| thingee | sdague, dansmith there are couple of things happening here with this cross-project spec on rolling upgrades. | 15:12 |
| sdague | thingee: ok, well that's not obvious in that document | 15:13 |
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| thingee | sdague: take a deep breath. I didn't write this document | 15:14 |
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| sdague | thingee: I know :) | 15:14 |
| sdague | I've seen that document in other contexts | 15:14 |
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| sdague | 6 months ago | 15:14 |
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| dansmith | thingee: were you going to elaborate on the other things? | 15:15 |
| dansmith | I reviewed the user story a lot... | 15:15 |
| thingee | sdague: right except the problem is it was nova specific details and not all of it pertains to every project in OpenStack. What I would like to see with cross-project specs is the idea of a concept and general shared solutions being agreed on. | 15:15 |
| thingee | and a place where people can find already existing solutions to not go and reinvent things. | 15:16 |
| sdague | thingee: no, I saw *this* document in this format 6 months ago | 15:16 |
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| thingee | sdague: ok fair enough | 15:16 |
| dansmith | I'm totally confused because this document doesn't have any substance, that I can see | 15:16 |
| sdague | dansmith: agreed | 15:17 |
| thingee | dansmith: ok now that leads me to my second part | 15:17 |
| thingee | dansmith: so the product working group is just surfacing up the use cases. it takes someone with technical knowledge in the area to put in the info I just spoke of earlier. | 15:17 |
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| dansmith | thingee: so the user story document is up and merged, and that makes sense I think | 15:18 |
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| sdague | this document is a wish list out of the product working group having which misses any analysis of where things actually stand | 15:18 |
| dansmith | thingee: I'm not really sure what technical bits you think belong in here.. we could document what nova is doing, what neutron is doing differently, etc, but that doesn't seem like a spec | 15:18 |
| thingee | sdague: right, so I think it's reasonable for us to say what's already done, and what is a wish list. I think this document should reflect today where we stand. | 15:19 |
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| dansmith | sdague: well, the user story document is a wish list, but it's a more appropriate place for such a thing | 15:19 |
| thingee | dansmith: well now if we look at other cross-project specs, isn't that the point? | 15:19 |
| dansmith | thingee: but that's what the user story was.. I don't see why we need this as well | 15:19 |
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| sdague | that's fine, I get concerned by us committing a wish list that is not informed by reality to a repo like this | 15:19 |
| sdague | because it makes some assumption that is where we are headed | 15:19 |
| thingee | dansmith: ok, so if I have project tacker, which is new, how to find out how quotas are done in openstack? | 15:19 |
| thingee | or rolling upgrades? | 15:20 |
| dansmith | thingee: I think the most useful cross-project specs are things like the api guidelines and stuff | 15:20 |
| sdague | some of those things are done, some are easy, some are infinitely hard | 15:20 |
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| sdague | like "rollback" | 15:20 |
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| sdague | and if you merge a thing like that, then you'll have lots of people point to it and say "openstack is going to support rollback" or even "openstack supports rollback" when there is really no interest in that being a thing | 15:22 |
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| sdague | from the projects | 15:22 |
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| dansmith | yeah, that was my concern which I asserted on the user story as well | 15:23 |
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| thingee | sdague: so that's reasonable, again I'm fine with pulling out what's a wish list item. I told ken to do his best in figuring out what has already been agreed on in use cases. using existing specs from individual projects. | 15:23 |
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| sdague | thingee: I think that before moving forward on any of this the PWG should actually also include the state of the world in that document. | 15:24 |
| dansmith | thingee: so you expect that in this spec, we'll have a section for every project that currently has an upgrade strategy, where we document how it works? | 15:24 |
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| sdague | that was my issue when I dealt with this document in september. There as a giant list of "openstack doesn't do X" which was about 50% wrong. | 15:26 |
| thingee | sdague: sure, this is why I pulled dansmith in to leave comments on this document. | 15:26 |
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| sdague | thingee: ok | 15:26 |
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| thingee | dansmith: no, this is all general concept of what we're trying to achieve and general solutions to solve it. | 15:26 |
| dansmith | well, the user story covers the wishlist | 15:27 |
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| dansmith | so what are the general things? | 15:27 |
| dansmith | like "if you have RPC, it prolly should be versioned and stuff" ? | 15:27 |
| thingee | dansmith: if individual projects need more specific things to discuss like things with their individual services that involve rolling upgrades, they can do that within their own spec repo or whatever. | 15:27 |
| sdague | it still feels like the spec proposer should own that analysis. I guess if dansmith is effectively becoming the spec owner, that's fine, but that should be explicit | 15:27 |
| thingee | dansmith: yes | 15:27 |
| dansmith | sdague: hey now... :) | 15:27 |
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| sdague | never in the history of openstack have we ever turned a spec into reality without a strong owner | 15:28 |
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| sdague | maybe that's the meta issue I have with this | 15:28 |
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| sdague | because I saw this in basically exactly this format 6 months ago | 15:29 |
| thingee | sdague: I agree, someone still needs to own this spec. Ken just surfaced use cases from the product working group. | 15:29 |
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| sdague | thingee: the PWG should also surface state of the art analysis | 15:29 |
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| dansmith | thingee: this is almost exactly like the way the user story document started | 15:29 |
| dansmith | like, I'd bet the first patch on each was nearly identical | 15:29 |
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| dansmith | thingee: maybe what I'm trying to get at is: | 15:31 |
| thingee | dansmith: ok that's too bad. I did tell ken to take a close look at some related specs I found and reflect off those, since this document should just be the state. I view what we have now, that ship has sailed. We can always do more, but that's the point of this doucment at this point | 15:32 |
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| dansmith | I can see us having a cross-project spec for "if you're going to do RPC with oslo.messaging, i should be versioned and look kinda like $this" | 15:32 |
| dansmith | and | 15:32 |
| thingee | that's not the point* | 15:32 |
| dansmith | "if you're going to do database migrations, you should do $these things" | 15:32 |
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| thingee | dansmith: yeah that's what I was imagining for this spec | 15:33 |
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| thingee | and surfacing ideas like oslo.versionedojects | 15:33 |
| dansmith | thingee: that makes more sense to me than a "upgrades wishlist" as a spec driven by product people | 15:34 |
| sdague | right, and it's super important we don't have landed specs that are random wishlists IMHO, because that's just going to set all the expectations incorrectly | 15:34 |
| dansmith | thingee: the user story document has most of those topics in it already, | 15:34 |
| dansmith | and pointers to which projects have done them | 15:35 |
| sdague | right, the user story document is actually the much better version of this document | 15:35 |
| sdague | although it still has rollback in it | 15:35 |
| dansmith | sdague: yeah, well, I argued at least.. | 15:35 |
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| dansmith | there was more and he removed quite a bit | 15:36 |
| dansmith | so.. | 15:36 |
| thingee | sdague, dansmith: ok, but that's the second part. I think the product working group is doing their best to engage with the rest of the community instead of in their own repo. This one is kind of a bad example since we've already made progress in it. future items, they could propose a similar spec with use cases that was agreed on in their repo. They would create a cross-project spec that just includes | 15:36 |
| thingee | the use cases of an idea. | 15:36 |
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| thingee | sdague, dansmith that would be the time to disagree with the use cases if you happen to not be involved in that repo. | 15:37 |
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| dansmith | thingee: making either global specs or user story wishlist documents is engaging with the community? | 15:38 |
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| thingee | dansmith: well how would you like them to engage on ideas they're surfacing up? | 15:39 |
| thingee | if they involve more than one project | 15:39 |
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| sdague | I dug through my email folder, apparently I just gave them feedback via email, and didn't put it in the review | 15:39 |
| * thingee has a really unreliable hotspot and in a cab | 15:40 | |
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| dansmith | thingee: start in one place, prove out a method and pollinate to the rest? | 15:41 |
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| dansmith | thingee: or approach leadership in a few related projects and try to spawn some actual work? | 15:41 |
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| dansmith | just a list of requirements doesn't really apply well, IMHO | 15:42 |
| thingee | dansmith: not sure I follow. They started in their repo, one place... now they're surfacing up to cross-project spec with ideas that have been sitting | 15:42 |
| dansmith | heh | 15:42 |
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| sdague | everywhere else we expect a spec to come with action items relevant to the problem, and people signed up for the thing | 15:43 |
| thingee | dansmith: again, it's understood this spec needs an owner that understands the technical details. What I really wanted was use cases that is already solved by the progress we made today. | 15:43 |
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| dansmith | thingee: then why is rollback in there? | 15:44 |
| thingee | sdague, dansmith: and I think their approach brings it up to a wider audience and advertises someone who might be interested in taking ownership. | 15:44 |
| dansmith | that kind of "everyone already agreed not to do that thing" is not a case of "already solved by the progress we made today" | 15:44 |
| thingee | dansmith: again, *What I wanted* | 15:44 |
| sdague | thingee: I think that's a massively unrealistic assumption that elves will sweep in here and just take ownership of this | 15:45 |
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| dansmith | well, I guess my point is: starting in a repo of wishes off in a corner and coming to projects with "ideas" that have already been decided against is just not a healthy path | 15:45 |
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| * dansmith coins the term "repo of wishes" | 15:45 | |
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| thingee | sdague: so is anything | 15:46 |
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| thingee | dansmith: if you don't want to participate in surfacing these ideas, we can find others I suppose and iterate a bunch of times to get it right. | 15:47 |
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| thingee | but I got other things to do todya than argue the point of a work group :) | 15:48 |
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| cdent | sdague: at least week's tc meeting when mtreinish brought up the issue with testing in one of the projects and was asked to provide a bunch of information and analysis you defended him by saying something along the lines of "are we always going to assume that people who bring up issues will have to be the ones to solve them or be completely prepared, if so nobody will ever bring anything up" | 15:48 |
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| sdague | cdent: that's fine, there is a user story - http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/openstack-user-stories/user-stories/proposed/rolling-upgrades.html | 15:49 |
| sdague | which is wrong, even after feedback was provided | 15:49 |
| sdague | a spec is a very specific kind of artifcat | 15:49 |
| cdent | then just -1 it | 15:50 |
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| sdague | I did | 15:50 |
| thingee | sdague: it still has use cases. If a group wants to contribute that portion, that's fine | 15:50 |
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| thingee | I don't see anything wrong with someone contributing what they can and then others if interested filling in the other pieces they can. And if they don't, *you* yourself don't have to worry about that. | 15:51 |
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| sdague | thingee: but they did that, in a place, for user stories | 15:51 |
| thingee | sdague: it's a silo | 15:52 |
| sdague | thingee: I do have to worry about that, because openstack-specs is defined direction for the project | 15:52 |
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| sdague | and this includes things that are definitively not | 15:52 |
| thingee | sdague: and this is your chance to say "no",..,, and they can take revise | 15:52 |
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| sdague | thingee: and my confidence in any of that energy being spent well is approximately 0, given that I gave the *same* feedback before it landed in the other repo | 15:53 |
| thingee | sdague: so participate then. I'm not sure what you're arguing about at this point. They proposed something, you can still review it and say no. | 15:53 |
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| thingee | sdague: well they don't own this repo, the TC does | 15:53 |
| thingee | sdague: so nothing is going to happen unless we have your consensus and others | 15:53 |
| cdent | thingee: isn't the fundamental issue here that this is making more work for people who already have too much? | 15:54 |
| cdent | it's true that dansmith and sdague have expertise in this area, but where do they have the time to take it on? | 15:55 |
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| thingee | sdague: ok so you and dansmith don't have to do anything. I just asked dansmith if he wanted to. It's fine to say no. | 15:55 |
| thingee | my goodness... | 15:55 |
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| cdent | except that if they don't take it on, we now have this thing which is effectively wrong floating around :) | 15:56 |
| dansmith | well, what I really want is to -1 the concept of a live upgrades wishlist cross-project spec | 15:56 |
| dansmith | maybe I should make that clear(er) in gerrit | 15:56 |
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| sdague | that was basically what my review was | 15:57 |
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| thingee | dansmith: and I'm totally fine with that. Again what I was hoping for was the use cases we've already made progress in cross-project. and Here are some general concepts and solutions. | 16:00 |
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| amrith | mriedem, would you have some time this afternoon to chat about the soon to be stable/mitaka? | 16:16 |
| mriedem | amrith: sure | 16:16 |
| amrith | mriedem, may I ping you here, it may be ~230/3pm eastern. | 16:17 |
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| mriedem | _amrith_: sure, or in #openstack-stable | 16:20 |
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| thingee | cdent: I just realized you asked about this creating more work for people, not sdague | 16:23 |
| thingee | cdent: I guess I don't really understand the question. There is going to be some form of work to surface ideas as cross-project initiatives yes. | 16:23 |
| cdent | thingee: no worries, I was just trying to indicate how things looked from the side, as the conversation didn't seem to be going anywhere good | 16:23 |
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| cdent | What I took from what d&s were saying was that by being "wrong" the pwg was creating redundant work for people (like them) who are already too busy. | 16:24 |
| cdent | and if you have to spend all your time protecting against people wrong, that's just a real bear | 16:25 |
| thingee | cdent: first of all, I never brought sdague into this. That's purely up to him to get involved. | 16:25 |
| cdent | of course I could be reading the situation completely wrong | 16:25 |
| thingee | cdent: it's ok to say no to work | 16:25 |
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| thingee | cdent: I asked dansmith, who can also say no | 16:25 |
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| thingee | cdent: with that said, everyone has been ignoring something I keep repeating. | 16:26 |
| cdent | thingee: Yes, agreed. I was just trying to make some sense of the apparent confusion or tension. | 16:26 |
| thingee | cdent: the intention was to surface use cases that are already achieve by our current progress. | 16:26 |
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| thingee | cdent: I agree, and it's clear as day in the spec that ken did not do that. | 16:27 |
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| thingee | cdent: but more importantly to surface the general concept of rolling upgrades and general solutions that exist today | 16:28 |
| thingee | cdent: I don't want someone recreating oslo.versionedobjects for example | 16:28 |
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| cdent | as we keep creating things like openstack-specs and api-wg and service-type-auth and related stuff we're going to keep having this issue of not enough people | 16:28 |
| cdent | thingee: yeah, I get it | 16:28 |
| thingee | cdent: In OpenStack today, for anyone like a new project tacker, to figure out what we have already agreed on to some ideas that involve multiple projects, you have to already be in the know | 16:29 |
| cdent | yes, I agree | 16:29 |
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| cdent | I was complaining about a very similar thing on a different cross-project spec earlier today | 16:29 |
| thingee | what nova has done today, whether or not neutron is doing something different is sort of an accepted idea for rolling upgrades. other projects like cinder are following suit | 16:29 |
| thingee | and I think it makes sense to surface these up to a wider audience than how things are today | 16:30 |
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| cdent | Yes. Unfortunately, that's a fairly involved process. | 16:31 |
| thingee | but people instead want to argue about the point of the product working group. | 16:31 |
| thingee | or how ken missed the point of what I wanted initially in the spec. | 16:31 |
| cdent | I didn't actually hear the first, but did the second | 16:32 |
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| jaypipes | mugsie: does Designate have gating grenade jobs? | 18:53 |
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| amrith | mriedem, ... pinged you on #openstack-stable ... | 18:57 |
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| mugsie | jaypipes: not currently | 19:00 |
| jaypipes | mugsie: k, thx for the info. you are planning one? | 19:00 |
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| mugsie | yes - it is in the plans, but we have been focusing on tempest currently | 19:01 |
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| mugsie | also, I have nothing more that "plan to look at grenade" - I am not sure what is involved in setting it up | 19:02 |
| jaypipes | mugsie: k. I ask because of this: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/292918/ | 19:02 |
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| mugsie | ah | 19:02 |
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| mugsie | if it means we have to remove that tag so be it. | 19:03 |
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| mugsie | or not merge it as the case may be | 19:03 |
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| mugsie | it will be at least post RC before I get to look at it | 19:04 |
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| mugsie | jaypipes: is there other options for this test, or a plugin model? there does not seem to be many projects listed in the repo | 19:07 |
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| jaypipes | mugsie: yeah, so obviously that patch is just in a proposed state, but I wanted to bring it to your attention because it means you'd need to remove the supports-upgrades tag. The expectation introduced by that proposal is that a grenade test would be gating, yes. No other functional/integration tests are considered, AFAICT, but you can verify that with dansmith | 19:09 |
| mugsie | OK, cool. thanks for the heads up | 19:10 |
| jaypipes | np at all | 19:10 |
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| EmilienM | jamespage, coreycb: did you update sahara? | 19:39 |
| EmilienM | it's broken now | 19:39 |
| EmilienM | http://logs.openstack.org/21/287521/24/check/gate-puppet-openstack-integration-scenario003-tempest-dsvm-trusty/deb612a/console.html#_2016-03-15_18_19_51_071 | 19:39 |
| EmilienM | zigo: ^ | 19:39 |
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| coreycb | EmilienM, we synced b3 from debian | 19:40 |
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| EmilienM | coreycb: don't you test sahara? | 19:41 |
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| openstackgerrit | Oleg Gelbukh proposed openstack/governance: Add fuel-octane and tuning-box repos https://review.openstack.org/291380 | 19:44 |
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| EmilienM | coreycb: zigo updated sahara, is it possible to have a sync in proposed? | 19:53 |
| EmilienM | (please) | 19:54 |
| coreycb | EmilienM, yes no problem | 19:54 |
| EmilienM | thanks | 19:54 |
| coreycb | EmilienM, we carry sahara in universe btw which means it's community supported (vs main which is canonical supported) so we just sync it from debian | 19:55 |
| EmilienM | k | 19:55 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Adding Horizon extra-atc https://review.openstack.org/290188 | 20:06 |
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| thingee | kencjohnston, sdague, dansmith I updated my thoughts on the cross-project spec https://review.openstack.org/#/c/290977/1 | 20:08 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Add dencaval to extra-atcs for Manila https://review.openstack.org/289408 | 20:08 |
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| thingee | sdague, dansmith: that trove example might be a bit much to surface everything that involves more than one project into cross-project to help communication, but I'd like hear feedback. | 20:12 |
| dansmith | thingee: I was just typing that | 20:12 |
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| thingee | dansmith: :) | 20:13 |
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| thingee | dansmith, sdague so perhaps in the future, instead of the product working group just pushing something up, I can bridge a gap with something up in the cross-project meeting they feel is ready for cross-project spec and advertise anyone interested in owning it to write the spec with their use cases. And then commence usual reviewing | 20:15 |
| thingee | dansmith, sdague and if no one cares, no one cares :) | 20:16 |
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| thingee | dansmith, sdague but that should avoid the wish list problem | 20:17 |
| dansmith | thingee: FWIW, I'm trying to pay attention to the TC meeting, so responses are delayed | 20:17 |
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| openstackgerrit | Dan Smith proposed openstack/governance: Add testing requirement to assert:supports-upgrade tag https://review.openstack.org/292918 | 21:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | lifeless proposed openstack/governance: Call out GPL style licenses in testing/validation. https://review.openstack.org/293140 | 21:10 |
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| thingee | dansmith: now discussing rolling upgrades in #openstack-meeting-cp | 21:38 |
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| jroll | cdent: my fear with this wsme thing is that someone will try to prescribe (again) that projects must use $framework | 22:01 |
| thingee | dansmith: would it make sense for us to be in a different repo? | 22:01 |
| jroll | iirc that's where pecan/wsme came from | 22:01 |
| * cdent has totally gone non-framework | 22:01 | |
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| cdent | yeah, I'd hate to see that happen | 22:02 |
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| cdent | expose a wsgi app, how you do, up to you | 22:02 |
| cdent | that's my thinking | 22:02 |
| jroll | yeah, I agree | 22:02 |
| clarkb | it was a strong suggestion at the portland summit to make it easier for people to move between rojects | 22:02 |
| dhellmann | yeah, the point really was to get folks *off* of the home-grown thing that was so painful for new contributors and had no documentation | 22:02 |
| thingee | dansmith: I kind of feel like having the TC agree a general direction we want to go with certain problems makes sense? | 22:02 |
| * jroll looks back at the falcon thing | 22:02 | |
| jroll | falcon/barbican* | 22:02 |
| thingee | lets just go back to wsgi.py | 22:03 |
| * jroll runs away | 22:03 | |
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| cdent | def myapp(environ, start_response): # done | 22:03 |
| dansmith | thingee: with certain problems for sure. logging standards totally make sense to me | 22:03 |
| thingee | wsgi.py and paste forever \m/ | 22:03 |
| cdent | paste-- | 22:03 |
| cdent | utterly hate it | 22:03 |
| jroll | cdent++ | 22:03 |
| cdent | and haven't we decided that is a proto-config nightmare? | 22:04 |
| cdent | sorry crypto-config (like crypto-fascist) | 22:04 |
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| thingee | dansmith: so the fact that *some* projects have rpc compat and database problems is what prevents you to accept it in cross-project? | 22:05 |
| thingee | dansmith: I'm trying to understand how many projects it takes for it to be cross-project | 22:06 |
| dansmith | thingee: three? | 22:06 |
| thingee | dansmith: heh I think we have more than three for this right? | 22:06 |
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| dansmith | thingee: for what? that's the problem.. there isn't one solution that everyone needs to adopt | 22:07 |
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| dansmith | thingee: ceilometer doesn't use versioned rpc or objects, yet claims to be cool for upgrades. neutron is doing some very different things from nova on their rpc versioning, and definitely with their database | 22:07 |
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| dansmith | thingee: cinder is pinning object versions during upgrade, nova is not | 22:07 |
| jroll | cdent: anyway, I'd love to move to flask or falcon for ironic, just need someone to make the effort (and better tempest tests to make sure we don't break the world) | 22:07 |
| cdent | jroll: a) tempest needs gabbi, b) ask me about that in a couple months if you haven't heard anything from anybody else | 22:08 |
| cdent | (a) because tempest api tests are inscrutable and do bad http) | 22:08 |
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| jroll | cdent: heh, yeah | 22:09 |
| dansmith | thingee: so we can document nova-style versioned rpc, which will apply to a few projects, but not to all, and some could use objects entirely and not have any versioned rpc | 22:09 |
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| dansmith | thingee: which is why I think it needs to be split into specific areas, and areas which have significant adoption, or where something is clearly the way we need to enforce that something be done | 22:10 |
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| cdent | dansmith, thingee: somewhere "the things that have worked before" need to be captured but calling that a "spec" is awkward. It seems like much of what cross-project wants to be is capturing info that's useful to lots of projects | 22:10 |
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| cdent | but we've got hung up on the review of a spec process | 22:11 |
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| dansmith | thingee: a lot of my concern here comes from two places: | 22:11 |
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| dansmith | 1. People in other projects being turned off about even worrying about upgrades because they were under some impression that objects was a silver bullet that they had to adopt (and adapt to) | 22:12 |
| dansmith | 2. People going around and telling people that they had to do all the things that nova did and that if they did those bits, they'd magically have upgrades | 22:12 |
| dansmith | when in reality, 75% of it is culture | 22:12 |
| jroll | ++ | 22:13 |
| cdent | >75 I'd say | 22:13 |
| dansmith | cdent: well, I wrote most of the rest, so don't devalue my stuff :) | 22:13 |
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| * dansmith exaggerates a bit | 22:13 | |
| cdent | not much greater | 22:14 |
| cdent | just some greater | 22:14 |
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| * cdent has been at for too long | 22:15 | |
| cdent | lots of interesting chats today | 22:15 |
| cdent | goodnight | 22:15 |
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| dims | zigo : on that packaging thread, we just need a review to get it into governance? | 22:31 |
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| zigo | dims: Packaging-Deb is *already* in the big tent. | 22:32 |
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| zigo | But nothing happens on OpenStack infra because we don't have a Debian image and the necessary tools online. | 22:32 |
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| clarkb | to be fair a debian image is not a strict requirement | 22:35 |
| clarkb | it is a strong desire | 22:35 |
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| dims | zigo : what's the next logical step needed? do we know that? | 22:42 |
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| zigo | clarkb: How do you propose to test Debian packages with tempest without a Debian image? | 22:43 |
| zigo | dims: For me, just keep things at it is, and leave more time to the project to get started. | 22:44 |
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| zigo | dims: Either that, or count the commits on the OpenStack PKG group on Alioth. | 22:44 |
| clarkb | zigo: I don't, BUT you can test that packages build and that is an excellent place to start | 22:45 |
| clarkb | zigo: since it is a necessary first step to testing with tempest | 22:45 |
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| zigo | clarkb: I already have that implemented with my Jenkins setup on each git push, there's no point to move to OpenStack infra just for that. | 22:46 |
| zigo | Hum... | 22:46 |
| clarkb | zigo: ok, but that is your decision | 22:46 |
| zigo | There's the point that it'd be a check before pushing. | 22:46 |
| clarkb | you can do that on our system | 22:46 |
| clarkb | and then none of this would be an issue | 22:46 |
| clarkb | and it will get you familiar with managing jenkins jobs and so on | 22:47 |
| zigo | I am already familliar with Jenkins. | 22:47 |
| zigo | :) | 22:47 |
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| clarkb | ok, I am just pointing out it is your choice not to be working on our gerrit | 22:47 |
| zigo | clarkb: Could we discuss the way forward, rather than looking backward? | 22:47 |
| clarkb | there is nothing preventing that other than a desire to only work with debian images | 22:48 |
| clarkb | yes my suggestion is and always has been that step one is just get one package building | 22:48 |
| clarkb | and use ubuntu or centos or fedora to do that I don't care which | 22:48 |
| clarkb | since the build are all done in a chroot anyways aiui that should be fine | 22:48 |
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| zigo | My experience is that you do need stuff installed outside of the sbuild chroot, which are distro specific. | 22:48 |
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| zigo | For example, things needed by the clean target are called before entering sbuild. | 22:49 |
| clarkb | during the summit session consensus seemed to be that debian was not a requirement to build a package | 22:49 |
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| zigo | Not a consensus. | 22:49 |
| zigo | From all parties not doing the actual Debian packaging. | 22:49 |
| clarkb | well other than you | 22:49 |
| zigo | Yeah... | 22:50 |
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| clarkb | what would break by building a single debian package on ubuntu? | 22:50 |
| zigo | Things installed in the OS for clean could differ. | 22:50 |
| clarkb | and lifeless is a debian ackager aiui and suggested this would work | 22:50 |
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| lifeless | what did I do? | 22:51 |
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| clarkb | lifeless: in tokyo you said that building packages for debian on ubuntu should work bceause its all in a chroot anyways | 22:51 |
| clarkb | iirc | 22:51 |
| lifeless | definitely | 22:52 |
| clarkb | so my suggestion was at the time and still is that zigo start with that then when a debian image is available switch the jobs to that image | 22:52 |
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| dims | +1 to clarkb 's suggestion if it's possible since familiarity with the project-config et.al is invaluable for later work | 22:52 |
| clarkb | and then worry about temest | 22:53 |
| zigo | My experience differs. | 22:53 |
| lifeless | zigo: pass -udcar to get those run in the chroot | 22:53 |
| clarkb | my 'p' key is not working well anymore | 22:53 |
| lifeless | oh hmm, thats sbuild-update; let me look a little more | 22:53 |
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| zigo | lifeless: The issue is *outside* the chroot. Things needed by the clean. Clean is called by git-buildpackage *before* entering the sbuild chroot. | 22:53 |
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| lifeless | zigo: that sounds very much like a git-buildpackage bug to me | 22:54 |
| zigo | Editing /etc/git-buildpackage/gbp.conf to do "cleaner = /bin/true" doesn't work (it's a bug...). | 22:54 |
| zigo | lifeless: Correct, it really is a bug. | 22:54 |
| lifeless | zigo: so - how about we fix that, and install the fixed version in infra | 22:54 |
| zigo | lifeless: How about we get the Debian image going ? | 22:54 |
| zigo | What's the problem with it?!? | 22:55 |
| dims | sounds like progress lifeless | 22:55 |
| zigo | I really don't get why you guys are insisting so much. | 22:55 |
| zigo | My understanding is that we only need to get the first Depends-On of this one: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/264726/ | 22:55 |
| lifeless | I don't have an opinion TBH: was just discussing the clean issue | 22:55 |
| zigo | to be removed. | 22:55 |
| zigo | Then that's done ... | 22:55 |
| zigo | Though I'm not a specialist of DIB. | 22:55 |
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| zigo | That's what Igor Belikov wrote. | 22:56 |
| zigo | lifeless: Could you confirm? | 22:56 |
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| zigo | Igor wrote that because of a patch that Monty wrote, the first Depends-On is useless, though I don't have the reference to such commit. | 22:57 |
| clarkb | zigo: no one has a problem with it other than it is the slow option and you can make real progress today if you just attemt to | 22:57 |
| clarkb | its a choice is what I am saying | 22:57 |
| zigo | Ok. :) | 22:57 |
| clarkb | you can choose to make progress | 22:57 |
| clarkb | or you can choose to complain and not | 22:57 |
| dims | +1 to make progress :) | 22:58 |
| zigo | I choose to not complain, and get things done this way, with the Debian image, even if it's slower. | 22:58 |
| zigo | Because I know of the issues I found trying to do the way you suggest. | 22:58 |
| zigo | lifeless: Do you have time to review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/264726/ ? | 23:00 |
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| lifeless | zigo: nope | 23:01 |
| zigo | :/ | 23:01 |
| lifeless | zigo: I'm not involved with dib anymore | 23:01 |
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| zigo | ok | 23:01 |
| lifeless | zigo: plenty of other folk around - greghaynes, SpamapS, mordred, not to mention all the folk working on tripleo | 23:02 |
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| zigo | lifeless: greghaynes's https://review.openstack.org/#/c/211859/ is the one that is blocking the Debian image. I attempted multiple times to get Monty's help, he's too busy. Clint already wrote a +2 on the patch. | 23:04 |
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| zigo | lifeless: Jeremy Stanley did, sorry, Clint did on greghaynes's CR. | 23:05 |
| zigo | lifeless: I don't know any TripleO folks, though they are all working for RedHat... | 23:05 |
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| lifeless | zigo: I suggest asking for reviews in either the infra meeting or the tripleo meeting or both; since dib is shared betwixt the two teams | 23:06 |
| zigo | Ok, thanks. | 23:06 |
| zigo | Will try. | 23:07 |
| lifeless | that said | 23:07 |
| lifeless | 211859 has merge conflicts | 23:07 |
| lifeless | if you don't need it for your patch, I would indeed just remove the depends-on from your patch | 23:07 |
| zigo | That's what Igor Belikov wrote in a Mirantis private list, yes. | 23:07 |
| zigo | But I can't get him to comment on it more. | 23:07 |
| zigo | Let's attempt to do that. | 23:08 |
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| fungi | zigo: lifeless: also be aware that the infrastructure team are not core reviewers on diskimage-builder, we're merely consumers of it | 23:12 |
| fungi | if you have changes proposed to diskimage-builder which aren't gaining attention from its core reviewers, you need to be engaging with the tripleo team | 23:12 |
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| fungi | i have reviewed some of the dib changes involved, but i can only -1/+1 them | 23:13 |
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| lifeless | fungi: well, some are. You're not :) | 23:13 |
| fungi | there is some overlap, yes | 23:14 |
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| zigo | clarkb: fungi: I removed the bad Depends-On, could you review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/264726/ ? | 23:32 |
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| fungi | zigo: the change uses elements/debian-packageinstall from diskimage-builder, but the diskimage-builder change mentioned in the commit message to add that element isn't approved yet. i'm not sure under what logic that qualifies it as a "bad Depends-On" | 23:40 |
| fungi | we won't be able to build that image without all the elements it's trying to call | 23:40 |
| zigo | fungi: What is this element for? | 23:42 |
| zigo | fungi: Shouldn't I just remove it? | 23:42 |
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| zigo | fungi: It's bad, because the review is opened since last August, and greghaynes wrote he can't work on it... | 23:43 |
| greghaynes | Hrm? It's just being slow, I think ianw and I came to an agreement on the way forward though | 23:43 |
| greghaynes | With that last comment | 23:43 |
| zigo | greghaynes: Ah, nice to see you here! :) | 23:44 |
| greghaynes | Yep, I am around :) | 23:44 |
| zigo | greghaynes: So what's the way then? | 23:44 |
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| greghaynes | I am going to do what he suggested, essentially - make the element depend on the various ways you can get ssh keys and working networking | 23:45 |
| zigo | greghaynes: Should I restore the Depends-On in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/264726/ then? | 23:47 |
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| greghaynes | zigo: no, but the nodepool.yaml needs to be changed to be debian-minimal not debian-packageinstall | 23:49 |
| ianw | zigo: does debian-minimal work? | 23:49 |
| greghaynes | It should... | 23:49 |
| zigo | ianw: Yes, it has been tested by Igor Belikov. | 23:49 |
| ianw | zigo: so that seems to keep it in sync with fedora/centos/ubuntu | 23:50 |
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| greghaynes | zigo: that patch it used to depend on is backwards compatible so there's no reason for it to require that depends-on. Also nodepool images are typically -minimal | 23:51 |
| zigo | Ok, switched to debian-minimal then. | 23:51 |
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| zigo | ianw: greghaynes: Thanks for your useful comments. | 23:51 |
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| ianw | greghaynes: while we're talking about things, i don't want to be too much of an ass in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/290894/ but i also wonder if having gentoo functional testing in the main test is practical | 23:55 |
| ianw | greghaynes: i'm of the feeling we should have a non-voting job | 23:56 |
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| ianw | honestly, i think we can put the image-based fedora & centos stuff in there too and just gate on -minimal | 23:56 |
| greghaynes | ianw: whats the reasoning against having it? My thinking was that currently some of our distros fail a lot due to mirror issues and gentoo mirrors seem pretty reliable based on test results so I feel like telling them no isnt being very fair | 23:57 |
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| greghaynes | ah, you commented on the patch | 23:58 |
| * greghaynes reads | 23:58 | |
| greghaynes | Yea, I am not opposed to non voting, I don't think it makes a big difference either way TBH | 23:59 |
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