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| lifeless | morganfainberg: you had your meeting, wht was the outcome for keystone-mapper ? | 00:29 |
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| lifeless | morganfainberg: (186827) | 00:29 |
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| morganfainberg | lifeless: we're not splitting it | 02:03 |
| morganfainberg | lifeless: for now | 02:03 |
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| morganfainberg | lifeless: commented on the review | 02:05 |
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| lifeless | morganfainberg: so, abandon? | 02:06 |
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| morganfainberg | lifeless: yep. i said it can be abandoned in the comment | 02:07 |
| lifeless | ah cool | 02:08 |
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| flaper87 | etoews: no, they are not (yet): https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/python-zaqarclient+branch:master+topic:bp/cli,n,z | 05:34 |
| flaper87 | etoews: would appreciate your review on those patches :) | 05:34 |
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| rushiagr | I just installed devstack with stable/icehouse branch, on a fresh trusty VM. I just installed keystone and cinder services | 08:03 |
| rushiagr | and when I sourced openrc, and tried to run command 'cinder list', it throws this line and does nothing else: "ERROR: 'SessionClient' object has no attribute 'get_project_id'" | 08:05 |
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| rushiagr | devstack bug? or it's only me? | 08:05 |
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| rushiagr | first page of google search for this error yields nothing relevant | 08:06 |
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| frickler | rushiagr: I assume the icehouse branch for devstack is largely unmaintained/untested now, do you have a specific reason not to use some newer branch like stable/kilo? | 08:28 |
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| frickler | rushiagr: also, IIRC icehouse was supposed to run on precise | 08:29 |
| rushiagr | frickler: thanks for the info | 08:29 |
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| rushiagr | frickler: yea, we internally have a test-cloud running icehouse currently | 08:30 |
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| flaper87 | jaypipes: around? You're in the API WG, right? | 11:53 |
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| jaypipes | flaper87: yes, sir! | 11:54 |
| flaper87 | jaypipes: if so, I could use some feedback on this review: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186345/5/specs/liberty/pre-signed-url.rst,cm | 11:54 |
| flaper87 | jaypipes: awesome :D | 11:54 |
| jaypipes | flaper87: I'd be happy to review :) thanks for letting me know about it! | 11:54 |
| flaper87 | jaypipes: np | 11:55 |
| flaper87 | jaypipes: do you guys have a channel ? | 11:55 |
| flaper87 | :) | 11:55 |
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| jaypipes | flaper87: if we do, I don't know about it :) | 11:55 |
| jaypipes | flaper87: generally, we are on the "other" channels.... lurking! | 11:55 |
| flaper87 | jaypipes: hehe, ok ok! | 11:55 |
| flaper87 | if you feel like it, it'd be nice to have you around in #openstack-zaqar | 11:56 |
| flaper87 | or I can just ping you here | 11:56 |
| flaper87 | :) | 11:56 |
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| jaypipes | flaper87: just ping me here :) I already have 20+ channels open on Freenode... | 11:56 |
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| flaper87 | jaypipes: fair enough | 11:57 |
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| eandersson | Are there any good guides on how to keep a fork of common openstack services locally using Github Enterprise? | 12:04 |
| eandersson | Primarily to import patches still in review. | 12:04 |
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| kragniz | flaper87, jaypipes: #openstack-api | 12:11 |
| flaper87 | kragniz: wut ? | 12:13 |
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| kragniz | flaper87: I lurk in too many places! | 12:13 |
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| flaper87 | kragniz: and work in none of them? | 12:14 |
| * flaper87 ducks | 12:14 | |
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| kragniz | flaper87: naturally | 12:14 |
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| jaypipes | flaper87: k, reviewed. | 14:03 |
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| flaper87 | jaypipes: danke | 14:14 |
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| ayoung | sdague, what is the driving concern that leads you to want to put the policy defaults in the code? | 14:28 |
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| sdague | ayoung: have you read my email threads? | 15:20 |
| sdague | I really tried to describe it all there | 15:20 |
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| ayoung | sdague, yes, I read it...and I think I get it...just trying to ensure it matches up with how I understand it: | 15:26 |
| ayoung | sdague, we want to make it possible for end operators to fine tune policy, but keep them from breaking things | 15:27 |
| sdague | ayoung: right | 15:27 |
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| sdague | so there is knowledge in Nova of "yeh, doing this is probably a bad idea" | 15:27 |
| ayoung | sdague, the example I gave was "wjhere do we find the project_id" to match in the request, as we might need to fetch an object from the DB first | 15:27 |
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| ayoung | but saying "this operation which was deeemd admin only can be exposed to me end users" is within the realm of consideratiojn...and the reverse | 15:28 |
| sdague | ayoung: maybe we're thinking past each other on that point. Because my concern was more "oh, you made servers create admin only" | 15:28 |
| ayoung | sdague, heh | 15:28 |
| sdague | yeh | 15:28 |
| ayoung | sdague, so, in the case of neutron, I know some people that do almost the same thing | 15:28 |
| ayoung | they say "you need to be a special person to create a network, but anyone in the project can connect to it" | 15:29 |
| sdague | right, which is fine, and honestly we have the set of knobs that are that fine grained in nova | 15:29 |
| sdague | but we still want to be helpful and warn people when they are doing weird things | 15:29 |
| ayoung | sdague, so, if you look at the current Nova defaults, they don't even check the roles | 15:29 |
| ayoung | they just check that the project matches | 15:29 |
| sdague | ayoung: we do admin role | 15:30 |
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| ayoung | sdague, heh, but that is not scoped, so admin anywhere is admin everywhere | 15:30 |
| sdague | sure | 15:30 |
| ayoung | Bug 968696 | 15:30 |
| openstack | bug 968696 in Keystone ""admin"-ness not properly scoped" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/968696 - Assigned to Adam Young (ayoung) | 15:30 |
| sdague | yes, I agree that needs to change | 15:31 |
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| sdague | anyway, back to the requirements, because I think if we get too far into implementation we'll just talk past each other | 15:31 |
| dstanek | ayoung: that number is imprinted in my subconscious after your talk | 15:31 |
| ayoung | sdague, yeah...we want to identify that "you changed policy in such a way that you broke everything" before they deploy | 15:32 |
| sdague | we'd like sane defaults to be encoded somewhere (probably code) and annotated in a way that we can warn people when they change things in a way that might be terrible for compatibility or even working | 15:32 |
| ayoung | sdague, so I did write a tool along the lines of checking... | 15:32 |
| sdague | and I think that domain knowledge has to be in the projects, because that's where people who know the project know it | 15:32 |
| ayoung | sdague, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/170978/ | 15:33 |
| sdague | ayoung: that doesn't have domain knowlegde that turning off servers end point is a bad idea | 15:34 |
| ayoung | sdague no..it is just a start | 15:34 |
| ayoung | sdague, but you could then check the output to see if it matched some criteria | 15:34 |
| sdague | sure, but where do you encode that criteria? | 15:34 |
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| ayoung | sdague, in the scope of the dynamic policy approach, I would think it would be before you make a given policy active | 15:36 |
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| ayoung | you would modify policy, but have it in a "staging" state | 15:36 |
| ayoung | and then test the policy...and see "and you just broke deleting servers" | 15:36 |
| sdague | ayoung: that's where you process it | 15:36 |
| sdague | I'm coming back to the more fundamental question of where does that information live | 15:36 |
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| ayoung | sdague, I'm assuming you've worked wtih SELinux. With SELinux, you often find that some operation is broken due to the SELinux policy. The fix is usually (in a development environmnet) run SELinux in permissive mode, and see what the opolicy was that caused things to break, and change that policy. I would think that, in your concenrs, we would want to have the same kind of workflow. You don't prevent people from modifying pol | 15:41 |
| ayoung | icy, and remove their ability to break things. You give them solid defaults, and tools to identify faults | 15:41 |
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| ayoung | so, as far as the soldi defaults, that is why I am proposing this: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/134656/ | 15:41 |
| sdague | I've worked with it a little, and I've found it massively lacking in "you did a silly thing" | 15:41 |
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| sdague | the tools will resolve "you tried to do an impossible thing" | 15:42 |
| ayoung | it would take the inventory of policy enforcement points and make sure that they are consistent in how they enforce policy | 15:42 |
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| sdague | but not that next level of logic of "that's probably a bad idea" | 15:42 |
| sdague | which is why people turn it off a lot | 15:42 |
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| ayoung | sdague, people also ride motocycles without Helmuts. | 15:43 |
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| sdague | sure :) | 15:43 |
| ayoung | People that turn off SELinux instead of figuring out why it is breaking them are taking a risk that is, for most cases, unnecessary. | 15:43 |
| ayoung | POlicy, however, is not something that we let people "turn" off | 15:44 |
| ayoung | instead, we currently just provide a naive set of defaults | 15:44 |
| ayoung | and, we can't break people by changing the defaults | 15:44 |
| sdague | ok, so with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/134656/7/specs/backlog/policy-unified.rst,cm do you believe it's really 1 file in 1 git tree, or is it a composite | 15:44 |
| sdague | that is unclear from the spec | 15:44 |
| ayoung | instead, we need to provide a mechanism to let them migrate forward | 15:44 |
| ayoung | sdague, so...I would start with one file, but probably makes more sense to have it be One header, plus one file per project team | 15:45 |
| ayoung | and then compose it dynamically | 15:45 |
| ayoung | however...what I care about is the end state of that, not the process. | 15:45 |
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| sdague | sure, the 1 file I don't think works, because I don't see how it addresses Nova CD upgrading while Keystone remains at an older version | 15:46 |
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| ayoung | sdague, but regardless of the structure of the repo, I would start with the existing policies from Nova etc, and focus on where they contradict each other first | 15:47 |
| sdague | or in the more general case, components being rolled forward on different upgrade cadencts | 15:47 |
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| ayoung | sdague, right. In general, there is no harm in pre-positioning a rule in the policy file before it is enforced. | 15:48 |
| ayoung | But identifying that you need that rule is certainly based on each projects ongoing development | 15:48 |
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| sdague | ayoung: well with our microversions mechanism, I'd expect new rules to happen a reasonable amount | 15:48 |
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| ayoung | sdague, I would expect it to happen along these lines: | 15:48 |
| sdague | that are pretty tightly coupled to the code that's deployed | 15:48 |
| ayoung | start with getting a reasonble unified default that captures a snapshot in time | 15:49 |
| ayoung | split it into "header" and project specific regions | 15:49 |
| sdague | which is why I proposed an API resource on the server to get what the current code actually supports | 15:49 |
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| ayoung | sdague, I actually really like that idea...I was thinking it could be the result of a unauthenticate request for the resource, even | 15:50 |
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| ayoung | "if I ask to create a server with no token, give back a 401 with a "here is the policy you need to pass in order to make this call" | 15:50 |
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| sdague | so, I was thinking a little different | 15:50 |
| sdague | in that there would be a /policy resource | 15:50 |
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| sdague | and it would give you the policy definition, which looks like policy.json today, so tooling like horizon could do that instead of reading files, and keystone dynamic policy could use that as the original seed of truth | 15:51 |
| sdague | which would then get overridden on the keystone side with dynamic rules | 15:51 |
| ayoung | sdague, it seems like that would be a common mechanism, and would cause a lot of development chunr on each project | 15:51 |
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| sdague | ayoung: in what way? | 15:52 |
| ayoung | each one would implement in a slightly different way... | 15:52 |
| ayoung | we have pecan and flask and django... | 15:52 |
| sdague | sure | 15:52 |
| sdague | but we define the interface | 15:52 |
| ayoung | and, as you pointed out, the policy does not map to the APIs ecxept indirectly. | 15:52 |
| sdague | and some helpers in oslo.policy | 15:52 |
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| ayoung | I like what you were saying about cleaning that up | 15:52 |
| sdague | and, yes, projects will have to implement things | 15:52 |
| ayoung | there are, as I can see it, 3 classes of policy | 15:52 |
| ayoung | 1. policy that is agnostic of the resource | 15:53 |
| sdague | but, if we are talking about a big tent model, I don't think it's sustainable to think there will be a central registry | 15:53 |
| ayoung | 2. policy that knows the resources container without looking up the object | 15:53 |
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| ayoung | 3. policy that has to look up the object first | 15:53 |
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| ayoung | we can handle the first two in middleware | 15:53 |
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| ayoung | sdague, I have to admiut, I am less concerned about a central registry than in having a common set of definitions. I see the single default as a means to that ends, not in an ends itself | 15:55 |
| ayoung | and, buig tent, you are right | 15:55 |
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| ayoung | sdague, actually ,for big tent, we want to be able to namespace roles, so that nova:admin (or more fine grained) is different than neutron:admin | 15:55 |
| sdague | ayoung: sure, but I actually think that it's going to be problematic from a nova perspective because of our change rate and deployment model, so it's a non starter for us | 15:55 |
| sdague | ayoung: 100% agree with that | 15:56 |
| ayoung | sdague, good to know...so, how do we get to something attainable? | 15:56 |
| sdague | I think namespacing the admins in the existing mechanisms is a no brainer | 15:56 |
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| ayoung | unified should be composed from resources from each project? | 15:56 |
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| sdague | ayoung: yeh, I think so, that lets people that deploy nova from CD have correctly reflected policy for the API they have | 15:57 |
| sdague | I think namespacing admins could happen even before that | 15:57 |
| sdague | because getting rid of global admin makes a ton of sense | 15:57 |
| ayoung | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/125704/ is for roles inherit roles...I prefer the term composed roles, but the NIST term is hierarchical. That is differnt, though, than namespacing, which is more like this one: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/133855/ | 15:58 |
| flaper87 | jaypipes: thanks again, submitted the updated version | 15:58 |
| ayoung | We want both: assigning nova:admin implies nova:member, and so on | 15:59 |
| sdague | right | 15:59 |
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| sdague | so, yeh, I guess getting the roles thing sorted out first seems like the first concrete step | 16:00 |
| ayoung | sdague, so project member should be broken down into multiple smaller roles that can be individually assigned. | 16:00 |
| sdague | sure | 16:00 |
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| ayoung | sdague, ok, so now you see the field of windmills, and the number of lances I've broken upon them | 16:00 |
| sdague | :) | 16:00 |
| ayoung | sdague, thanks for driving things from your side. If we are not solving things for nova at least, it is a non-starter. | 16:01 |
| sdague | well, it's a broad reaching set of changes. I like the concept, there are just a lot of details to get right | 16:01 |
| ayoung | agreed | 16:01 |
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| sdague | ok, I think I need some food. I'd say it would probably be good to try to drive more of the discussion to resolution on the list, because with such a broad reaching set of changes, it will be important to make sure that it's evolution is visible to folks | 16:02 |
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| sdague | otherwise we might trip over a non-starter very late in the process | 16:02 |
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| ayoung | sdague, so I think the default, unified policy file for the core services is a starting point. I'll indicate that this is not an endstate, though, and put together a follow on spec to "build the unified policy file from fragments managed by each proejdct" | 16:02 |
| sdague | so, I don't think a unified policy file is useful | 16:03 |
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| sdague | and it will honestly break nova | 16:03 |
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| sdague | I think the starting point is admin namespacing | 16:03 |
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| sdague | which would let you composite things together manually if you really needed to | 16:03 |
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| sdague | then work on the composite | 16:04 |
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| sdague | anyway, I need to grab some food here, being lunch time. Talk to you later. | 16:06 |
| ayoung | sdague cool | 16:06 |
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| jlvillal | sdague: I uploaded a patch for gerrit-dash-creator: https://review.openstack.org/186923 I would be interested in feedback when you have time :) | 17:03 |
| sdague | jlvillal: ok, I can look quick | 17:03 |
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| jlvillal | sdague: Thanks | 17:04 |
| sdague | so.... | 17:04 |
| sdague | I'd actually like to not do that | 17:04 |
| sdague | for the following reason | 17:04 |
| sdague | that's actually the gerrit dashboard format | 17:04 |
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| sdague | https://review.openstack.org/Documentation/user-dashboards.html | 17:04 |
| sdague | which can be pushed server side as well | 17:05 |
| sdague | so if we add new syntax, it stops being able to be that | 17:05 |
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| jlvillal | Oh :( | 17:05 |
| jlvillal | I like the dynamic nature though :) | 17:05 |
| sdague | yeh, dansmith was yelling at me about the syntax the other day | 17:05 |
| sdague | and didn't realize I didn't invent it | 17:06 |
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| dansmith | sdague: I was so not yelling | 17:06 |
| jlvillal | sdague: What if it was a template file then? | 17:06 |
| sdague | you were speaking in unkind voice :) | 17:06 |
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| dansmith | sdague: I was speaking in a calm, but clearly disappointed, voice :) | 17:06 |
| sdague | heh | 17:06 |
| jlvillal | Which generated the dashboard file? | 17:06 |
| sdague | jlvillal: yeh, doing templates that generated dashboard files I think would be ok | 17:06 |
| jlvillal | sdague: Okay, If I get some time I will work on another revision then. | 17:07 |
| sdague | ok, cool | 17:07 |
| jlvillal | sdague: Thanks for the feedback. | 17:07 |
| sdague | no prob | 17:07 |
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| stevemar | ayoung, sdague are y'all going to be chatting about policy again? | 17:30 |
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| sdague | stevemar: honestly, I was hoping we'd take it to the ML :) | 17:32 |
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| ayoung | stevemar, soon!@ | 17:57 |
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| elmiko | anyone know where the magnetodb folks hang out? | 18:37 |
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| elmiko | ah, found it #magnetodb | 18:39 |
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| lifeless | I'm looking for a +2+A on https://review.openstack.org/184392 | 18:42 |
| lifeless | mordred: ^ | 18:42 |
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| ayoung | lifeless, um. you have red. py26, 27,34, and db-tox-sqla_09. | 18:45 |
| lifeless | I do? hmm | 18:46 |
| lifeless | nuts wrong review. cp failure | 18:46 |
| lifeless | ayoung: mordred: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187907/ | 18:46 |
| lifeless | [sorry!] | 18:47 |
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| ayoung | lifeless, much prettier. I like the green | 18:59 |
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| lifeless | me too | 18:59 |
| ayoung | only a net loss of 19 lines, though. Was hoping this would be like "we cut the amount of test code down to a single if block." Oh well. | 19:00 |
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| lifeless | ayoung: well, I am pondering another cross cut to make a chunk of it scenario driven | 19:00 |
| ayoung | cool | 19:00 |
| lifeless | ayoung: also 11 lines of copyright header :) | 19:00 |
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| ayoung | lifeless, ah, yeah...the price of a new file | 19:05 |
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| lifeless | mordred: you might have missed my ping, since I saw your client flap | 19:14 |
| lifeless | mordred: did you? | 19:14 |
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| russellb | dtroyer: so, neutron in devstack ... i need to do some work to support rolling upgrade testing with neutron enabled, similar to the testing done with nova. can i hack neutron-legacy for this? or is that code effectively frozen? | 19:15 |
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| mordred | lifeless: looking | 19:18 |
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| mordred | lifeless: +3 | 19:21 |
| lifeless | thanks | 19:21 |
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| dtroyer | russellb: don't wait for me to finish the neutron re-write for that. although it should be simpler to do things like that once the cruft is gone… | 19:23 |
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| russellb | dtroyer: ok thanks ... basically just need to be able to control start/stop of the l2 / ovs agent by itself | 19:24 |
| russellb | instead of a single funciton that does all the agents | 19:24 |
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| dtroyer | that should be simple enough | 19:25 |
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