| docaedo | Congrats on the Murano PTL role kzaitsev_ws ! | 00:13 |
|---|---|---|
| kfox1111 | kzaitsev_ws: contrats! :) | 00:23 |
| kfox1111 | oh... you beat me to it. :) | 00:23 |
| kfox1111 | docaedo: and congrats to you to. :) | 00:24 |
| docaedo | why thank you! I campaigned heavily and spend a great deal of money to make sure I could serve another term :P | 00:25 |
| kfox1111 | :) | 00:30 |
| kfox1111 | it looks like we might finally get into rdo proper this time around. | 00:31 |
| kfox1111 | we've been in delorean for a while, but never had the time to figure out how to get it into the final release for liberty. | 00:32 |
| kfox1111 | looks like its just automatically going to happen from now on out. :) | 00:32 |
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| docaedo | oh that's great! | 01:36 |
| openstackgerrit | Sahdev Zala proposed openstack/app-catalog: TOSCA web changes https://review.openstack.org/295376 | 03:19 |
| openstackgerrit | Sahdev Zala proposed openstack/app-catalog: TOSCA web changes https://review.openstack.org/295376 | 04:15 |
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| kfox1111 | kzaitsev_mb: saw the articles on planet.openstack.org. | 18:42 |
| kfox1111 | I'd really like to see the 20 click thing done with the app-catalog-ui in addition to murano-dashboard installed and see how many clicks that would be. I think it would be a lot less. | 18:43 |
| kfox1111 | plus a lot less hoping around, pasting things in, having to know what an environment was to create one, etc. | 18:44 |
| kfox1111 | I think we also should talk again at lengh at the summit about terminology. the murano = openstack app catalog thing and the community app catalog and glare is still really confusing to everyone. its bad enough that most devs kind of struggle with it, when our target audience is non devs. | 18:47 |
| kfox1111 | murano is something akin to a local application/component catalog and application engine. | 18:48 |
| kfox1111 | community app catalog is a shared/community supported application/component catalog. | 18:49 |
| kfox1111 | and glare is a local catalog of components. | 18:49 |
| docaedo | I'm definitely up for continuing the conversation in Austin and will do my best to be aroud for some of the Murano stuff | 18:49 |
| docaedo | The confusion sucks, but unlikely to get Murano team to abandon the phrase "application catalog" | 18:50 |
| docaedo | From the "app catalog PR" side, I'm thinking about prompting an updated mission statement (and dragging the TC into the conversation) | 18:50 |
| docaedo | which would also get more publicity/coverage for what we're doing | 18:51 |
| kfox1111 | they have renamed once.... | 18:51 |
| kfox1111 | Id say we all should probably all compromise and all abandon the term, and come up with new, non contentious ones maybe. | 18:51 |
| kfox1111 | all the projects are important, and complementery, | 18:52 |
| kfox1111 | but it doesn't seem that way due to bad naming/salesmanship. | 18:52 |
| docaedo | yeah I'm certainly up for the conversation :) | 18:53 |
| kfox1111 | I think it helps murano in a lot of ways to get a name fitting to the things it actually buys users. | 18:53 |
| kfox1111 | its way more then just a list of apps to run. | 18:54 |
| kfox1111 | which makes it sound a lot more like what we're doing here. | 18:54 |
| docaedo | to me the value of murano is as an OpenStack-native Application PaaS | 18:54 |
| kfox1111 | murano cloud application manager or something like that perhaps. | 18:54 |
| kfox1111 | yeah, but I almost see it one step higher at SaaS. | 18:55 |
| kfox1111 | you want a wordpress instance? bam. wordpress. :) | 18:55 |
| kfox1111 | it can do paas level stuff too, but it really shines the most at turnkey apps. | 18:56 |
| kfox1111 | we also should talk about moving forward with the thing we discussed last summit about making murano dashboard slide into the app-catalog-ui. | 19:01 |
| kfox1111 | I think we should have time to do that this cycle finally. | 19:01 |
| kfox1111 | that should greatly help reduce the confusion too. | 19:02 |
| docaedo | I'd definitely like to talk about that and see what direction makes the most sense | 19:04 |
| docaedo | (ie tighter connection to murano vs. work towards inclusion in Horizon) | 19:05 |
| docaedo | I don't think there's a way to do both, and the only way to get the app catalog ui piece to be "default" is move into horizon | 19:06 |
| kfox1111 | I still don't want to merge into horizon that closly yet. | 19:07 |
| kfox1111 | we'll have a hard time supporting older clouds if we do. | 19:07 |
| kfox1111 | and add new features. | 19:07 |
| kfox1111 | and horizon is pushing core stuff out of horizon, not pulling it in. | 19:07 |
| docaedo | true | 19:08 |
| kfox1111 | I think they recently spun off sahara and trove dashboards to their own repos? | 19:09 |
| kfox1111 | well, trove-dashboard for sure in mitaka. | 19:10 |
| docaedo | sure but those are different animals - a dashboard for a complicated local service vs. a panel that shows an external index with no local service requirements | 19:11 |
| kfox1111 | sure. but in some ways a remote service requirement's a harder thing to target then a local one. | 19:12 |
| kfox1111 | there's a reason google doesn't ship google play as an os level android thing. they ship it as an app, so they can upgrade it in somewhat close lockstep with their servers. | 19:12 |
| docaedo | true | 19:13 |
| kfox1111 | they support the local os for a long time, but the app store moves forward with the remote site. | 19:13 |
| kfox1111 | I think app-catalog-common vs app-catalog-ui may help somewhat with that, but hard to say until we have the split done and use it for a while. | 19:14 |
| kfox1111 | app catalog ui can provide the horizon base hooks, and frame, and then common can sit content into it. so might be easier to upgrade. but if we want to add new asset types for older clouds (likely), we'd probably have to be able to support newer app-catalog-ui's too. | 19:15 |
| kfox1111 | having the conversation with the rdo folks a little bit, I think we may want to really stop targeting the 6 month cycle and just release features as needed, independent, like some of the other projects (ironic) | 19:17 |
| kfox1111 | because our version 1.0 works with liberty & mitaka. | 19:17 |
| docaedo | much depends on how complicated the UI piece is, and how much more it does on top of just accessing the index of things | 19:17 |
| kfox1111 | 2.0, will probably work on liberty, mitaka, and newton, etc. | 19:17 |
| kfox1111 | right. | 19:18 |
| kfox1111 | for example, if we were part of horizon in liberty, we'd have to support our app catalog v1 api until liberty horizon went away. | 19:18 |
| kfox1111 | with seperate release, we can say, we can't suport v1 any more because ... X after this date. if your running liberty, upgrade just the app-catalog-ui component to 2.0 (supported) and things will work better. | 19:19 |
| kfox1111 | some day, I think we will be stable enough to consider entering horizon's tree if they will have us. right now, I think the negatives outweigh the positives. | 19:20 |
| docaedo | yeah I can agree that it's not time right now | 19:20 |
| docaedo | but I do think it's key for widespread adoption | 19:20 |
| kfox1111 | its the easiest way for widespread adoption for sure. | 19:21 |
| kfox1111 | otherwise we have to push through the packaging/config management bits ourselves. which is hard. | 19:21 |
| kfox1111 | but we've made some good progress there. | 19:21 |
| kfox1111 | we need to keep pushing though. this summit I intend to make the rounds again and try further. | 19:22 |
| docaedo | I feel like the packaging is relatively minor compared to just plain getting exposure | 19:22 |
| kfox1111 | I'm building kolla docker containers for work soon. which means I'll have to patch in the app-catalog-ui. so I can probably contribute that back. | 19:22 |
| kfox1111 | the exposure thing is a chicken and the egg issue. we need content to attract users and developers. we need developers contributing to attract users. :/ | 19:23 |
| kfox1111 | and we need a bloody sane cloud in order to attract developers too. :/ | 19:23 |
| docaedo | convincing people to add the package to their deployment is 10 (100?)x harder than convincing them to flip a bit in horizon config | 19:23 |
| kfox1111 | yeah, thats why config mangement part is important. | 19:24 |
| kfox1111 | with ansible, puppet, kolla, it should just be a flag. | 19:24 |
| docaedo | the biggest problem I see is that there's no such thing as an OpenStack Application | 19:24 |
| kfox1111 | the flag should just pull in the package and enable it. | 19:24 |
| docaedo | or, no concrete thing anyway - it's just a very vague hand-wavy thing | 19:24 |
| kfox1111 | yeah... | 19:24 |
| kfox1111 | some lower level services consider it not to be a thing at all. :/ | 19:25 |
| kfox1111 | The more I move up the stack and do the things I do these days using containers, I think nova's going to get relegated to the plumbing layer they seem to want to be, and container orchestration will be the main interface users will use. | 19:26 |
| docaedo | yeah I see the same future | 19:26 |
| kfox1111 | if that ends up being true, then the app catalog needs to target kubernetes/mesos/swarm+compose templates. | 19:26 |
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| docaedo | which I think would mean tight integration with Magnum, and some common way to package all those bits | 19:28 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. | 19:28 |
| kfox1111 | well, maybe... | 19:28 |
| docaedo | well .. guess if everyone assumes their docker piece is on dockerhub, that makes things easier | 19:28 |
| kfox1111 | the containers already have reasonable packaging/deployment system. | 19:28 |
| docaedo | but you still need your base image for swarn nodes and so on... | 19:28 |
| kfox1111 | its just the templates that need some packaging. | 19:28 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. that part wont go away. but thats like a dep thing, and can be done basically automatically for the user. | 19:29 |
| kfox1111 | magnum can work with the app catalog to pull the vm deps for launching if they don't exist locally already. | 19:29 |
| kfox1111 | then workflow is something like, user searches for an app, finds, say a kubernetes one, hits launch, | 19:30 |
| docaedo | yep | 19:30 |
| kfox1111 | we ask the user, do you want to run it on such and such existing kubernetes system in their tenant, | 19:30 |
| kfox1111 | or if they want to kick off the magnum new cluster workflow | 19:30 |
| kfox1111 | and then tell kubernetes to launch the template. | 19:31 |
| docaedo | sounds like it would work nicely | 19:32 |
| kfox1111 | even more awesome, if its done right with the new kubernetes deployments feature, | 19:33 |
| kfox1111 | you should be able to add an 'upgrade' option if there is an existing running deployment, and then kick off the rolling upgrade. :) | 19:33 |
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| docaedo | that would be nice :) | 19:43 |
| kfox1111 | so, we shoudl probably talk with the magnum folks at the summit too and talk through that idea. | 19:45 |
| kfox1111 | wow.... | 19:52 |
| kfox1111 | wget http://storage.googleapis.com/kubernetes-release/release/v${K8S_VERSION}/bin/linux/amd64/kubectl | 19:52 |
| kfox1111 | 39 mb binary... | 19:52 |
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| kfox1111 | http://technodrone.blogspot.com/2016/03/we-are-all-openstack-are-we-really.html | 21:06 |
| kfox1111 | interesting. he covers the different types of users appropriately. | 21:06 |
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| docaedo | skimmed, looks intereating and worth reading carefully, will do that shortly - thanks for sharing | 21:22 |
| docaedo | intereating? .. interesting I mean :) | 21:32 |
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