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| openstackgerrit | Kevin Fox proposed stackforge/apps-catalog: Convert Murano assets to common format. https://review.openstack.org/210487 | 15:01 |
|---|---|---|
| openstackgerrit | Kevin Fox proposed stackforge/apps-catalog-ui: Initial Depends and Bundle support added https://review.openstack.org/210488 | 15:03 |
| openstackgerrit | Kevin Fox proposed stackforge/apps-catalog: Add a test server https://review.openstack.org/209933 | 15:31 |
| kfox1111 | doh. that created a new review... | 15:32 |
| kfox1111 | oh well. | 15:32 |
| kfox1111 | oh. no it didn't. | 15:32 |
| kfox1111 | docaedo: alive? | 15:34 |
| docaedo | kfox1111: better than that - about to give feedback on 210487! | 15:34 |
| kfox1111 | cool. thanks. :) | 15:35 |
| kfox1111 | once we merge that one, it should be pretty easy to merge them all together into one file. | 15:36 |
| docaedo | only issue is murano bundle name doesn't show up in input box at the top of detail page (but murano packages work properly) | 15:37 |
| docaedo | I didn't dig in though to see exactly why | 15:37 |
| kfox1111 | The whole websites needing an overhaul. :/ | 15:37 |
| kfox1111 | its not going to be easy to add other format types to it the way it is I think. | 15:38 |
| kfox1111 | I'm wandering if we can share code between the horizon ui and the website. | 15:38 |
| kfox1111 | I'm really digging the ansible stuf. makes it really easy. | 15:38 |
| docaedo | thats an interesting idea | 15:39 |
| kfox1111 | we need to add a bundles top level resource type in the website to handle bundles I think. | 15:39 |
| kfox1111 | I contemplated adding a glance bundle as part of the review but didn't want to do too much in one review. | 15:41 |
| kfox1111 | like, a commmon jeos images bundle. | 15:41 |
| kfox1111 | centos, ubuntu, debian, and cirros or something like that. | 15:41 |
| docaedo | I think breaking murano bundles is something to be concerned with here | 15:41 |
| docaedo | Murano already has the bundle concept, which muran UI and CLI handle | 15:42 |
| docaedo | so if the app catalog has a bundle concept that steps on how murano handles bundles, that's a bad precedent to set | 15:42 |
| kfox1111 | yeah, and I think they overstepped there. :/ | 15:42 |
| kfox1111 | we can add new types, and they cant handle them. | 15:43 |
| docaedo | (not saying app catalog can't have bundles, but that app catalog bundle concept should not impact any services) | 15:43 |
| kfox1111 | why should murano know how to install glance images? | 15:43 |
| kfox1111 | or solum language packs? | 15:43 |
| docaedo | murano should know how to install a glance image because it's one of the basic things murano does, and has always done | 15:43 |
| kfox1111 | so when murano gains solum support? kubernetes? mistral? | 15:45 |
| docaedo | we shouldn't break things that are working, and the murano UI can fetch things from the app catalog by first fetching a bundle (which describes the dependencies in the bundle) | 15:45 |
| kfox1111 | what about the systems that don't have murano installed? | 15:45 |
| docaedo | then they won't be fetching murano things anyway? | 15:45 |
| kfox1111 | but simply changing the entries from multiple files to one is going to break things. | 15:46 |
| kfox1111 | they are depending on an unstable api. :/ | 15:46 |
| kfox1111 | thats why I was pushing a while back for a /v1/x or something. | 15:46 |
| kfox1111 | so we can version things. | 15:46 |
| docaedo | IMO it shouldn't break anything - we started with three YAMLs, which assumed three different asset types (glance, heat, murano) | 15:46 |
| kfox1111 | Relying on the raw data in /static/*.yaml means we can't ever change it, because we won't know what will break. | 15:47 |
| docaedo | combining three asset types into a single file at least COULD have been as easy as just including "asset-tpe | 15:47 |
| docaedo | er | 15:47 |
| kfox1111 | it will when we merge, cause murano_apps.yaml won't exist any more. | 15:47 |
| docaedo | asset-type field with that entry | 15:47 |
| kzaitsev1mb | murano does not rely on murano_apps.yaml being available anywhere. | 15:47 |
| docaedo | kzaitsev1mb thanks, I was about to say that | 15:48 |
| kfox1111 | then how do they care about bundles at all? | 15:48 |
| docaedo | murano just needs to know the name of the package or bundle | 15:48 |
| kfox1111 | they seem to be a app-catalog construct. | 15:48 |
| kzaitsev1mb | it just searches for a file on a http server | 15:48 |
| kfox1111 | there is no source to them. | 15:48 |
| kfox1111 | ... | 15:48 |
| kzaitsev1mb | murano bundles are just json-files, that list packages murano wants | 15:49 |
| kfox1111 | ... | 15:49 |
| kzaitsev1mb | they're searched the same way packages are | 15:49 |
| kfox1111 | ok. lets verify that.. | 15:49 |
| kfox1111 | if you go to apps.openstack.org, | 15:49 |
| kfox1111 | click murano, | 15:49 |
| kfox1111 | search for bundle, click on one, | 15:49 |
| docaedo | http://apps.openstack.org/#tab=murano-apps&asset=Application%20Servers%20Bundle | 15:50 |
| kfox1111 | what do you do with the bundle name? | 15:50 |
| docaedo | bundle name is "app-servers" | 15:50 |
| kfox1111 | for example "app-servers" | 15:50 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. | 15:50 |
| docaedo | if you put that in murano UI, urano grabs the app-servers bundle from (hold one sec for URL...) | 15:50 |
| kfox1111 | so, where does that go? how does murano resolve that to some list of stuff without pulling murano_apps.yaml? | 15:50 |
| kzaitsev1mb | `murano bundle-import app-servers` from console or paste it to the UI dialog | 15:50 |
| kfox1111 | Its got to come from a catalog somewhere... | 15:51 |
| docaedo | the murano bundles are independent of what's in the catalog | 15:51 |
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| docaedo | it gets dependencies based on what's in the YAML in the zip file that murano grabs | 15:52 |
| kfox1111 | from where? | 15:52 |
| kfox1111 | it cant be magic. :) | 15:52 |
| kzaitsev_mb | then it goes to MURANO_REPO_URL (that's pointing to storage.apps.openstack.org by default now) and fetches http://storage.apps.openstack.org/bundles/app-servers.bundle | 15:52 |
| kzaitsev_mb | there's no magic really =) | 15:52 |
| docaedo | kzaitsev_mb: thanks that's the URL I was about to verify | 15:53 |
| kfox1111 | hmm.... | 15:53 |
| kfox1111 | is there a way to browse whats in there? | 15:54 |
| kzaitsev_mb | it is most likely possible to create a concept of bundles on top of app-catalog, that would not break murano stuff, and then teach murano to support that kind of stuff | 15:54 |
| kzaitsev_mb | kfox1111: I don't think there is as of now | 15:54 |
| kfox1111 | just wondering what other kinds of things are in there. | 15:54 |
| kfox1111 | so a murano bundle json file contains basically whats in the app catalog entry. | 15:55 |
| kfox1111 | potential for getthing things out of sync though. | 15:55 |
| kzaitsev_mb | well, murano expects apps/ bundles/ and images/ directories to contain some stuff. | 15:55 |
| docaedo | definitely potential for getting things out of sync, but that's kind of a murano issue (or at least should be considered a murano issue IMO) | 15:55 |
| kfox1111 | but its ours for reviewing things that go in. | 15:56 |
| kfox1111 | if we don't know it exists, we allow badness to creap in. | 15:56 |
| kfox1111 | good to know it exists. | 15:56 |
| kfox1111 | so... must images be in images? | 15:56 |
| kfox1111 | what about external images? | 15:56 |
| kfox1111 | or are those links to images? | 15:57 |
| kzaitsev_mb | oh, about browsing — I guess docaedo should have access | 15:57 |
| docaedo | the murano link to the app-catalog doesn't handle external images | 15:57 |
| kfox1111 | :/ | 15:57 |
| docaedo | the cloud-files directory with bundles only has six entries, they are: | 15:58 |
| docaedo | app-servers.bundle, container-based-apps.bundle, databases.bundle, docker-n-kubernetes.bundle, docker_kubernetes.bundle and monitoring.bundle | 15:58 |
| kfox1111 | so those are just json files. we could even autogenerate those from the catalog entries to keep them in sync. | 15:59 |
| docaedo | you can see any of those with curl http://storage.apps.openstack.org/bundles/app-servers.bundle | 15:59 |
| kzaitsev_mb | kfox1111: sure, I actually thought, that at some point those would be api calls or something | 16:00 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. poking at them now. | 16:00 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. we really realy need to come up with a stable api, or document format, or whatever, | 16:00 |
| kfox1111 | if folks are going to start relying on it. | 16:00 |
| kfox1111 | trying to do that with the merge. | 16:00 |
| kfox1111 | ok. so, for now, it does seem like murano bundles are a thing... | 16:01 |
| kfox1111 | an unfortunate thing, but a thing. | 16:02 |
| kfox1111 | so I'll redo things so that they are murano only entries rather then bundles. | 16:02 |
| kfox1111 | this will further confuse the ui... | 16:02 |
| kfox1111 | we have bundles, and murano bundles. :/ | 16:02 |
| docaedo | murano had bundles first :) | 16:03 |
| docaedo | (just sayin' ;) ) | 16:03 |
| kfox1111 | murano has had a bunch of things first, but it doesn't mean its the right place for it. :/ | 16:03 |
| kfox1111 | it seems to do too much. :/ | 16:04 |
| kfox1111 | the usual openstack mantra is, try and do one thing well. | 16:04 |
| kzaitsev_mb | that's usual unix mantra, isn't it? | 16:05 |
| kfox1111 | murano's a local app catalog, orchestration engine, environment management engine, etc. | 16:05 |
| docaedo | I don't have a strong opinion on that, but changing the way the app catalog works is definitely not the right way to drive change in murano | 16:05 |
| kzaitsev_mb | (= | 16:05 |
| docaedo | sorry if I'm sounding harsh - my belief is that app catalog should be as unopinionated as possible | 16:06 |
| kfox1111 | so, we'll have to deal with the user confusion probably the same way we have to deal with the user confusion of murano itself. tag the murano bundles as "Murano Bundles". | 16:06 |
| kfox1111 | I mostly agree with you. but I also care about user experience. | 16:07 |
| docaedo | as a showcase of things you can get for an openstack cloud, it can't be the arbiter of how different projects should name/categorize stuff | 16:07 |
| kfox1111 | having to explain to a scientist what murano is just so they can find stuff seems like a wrong thing. | 16:07 |
| docaedo | that I can agree with :) | 16:08 |
| kfox1111 | they shouldn't have to care about the individual services. just, I want X app. | 16:08 |
| kfox1111 | its like, say I write gui to consume the app catalog data. | 16:11 |
| kfox1111 | If I want to have part of it look for "bundles" to present to the user, | 16:12 |
| kfox1111 | if each service type as their own notion of bundle, then the code's crazy to write. | 16:12 |
| kfox1111 | and maintain. | 16:12 |
| kfox1111 | every time a new service gets added, all the codes need updating. | 16:12 |
| kfox1111 | we'll add back murano for now, and we should try and deprecate it. :/ | 16:13 |
| kfox1111 | murano bundles | 16:13 |
| docaedo | that's one reason I think the app catalog should be relatively dumb in that respect, and should not try to be smart enough to grab things the user might not realize they need | 16:14 |
| kfox1111 | what else is in storage? | 16:14 |
| kfox1111 | its not the users in that case, its the consumers of the catalog data. | 16:16 |
| kfox1111 | I am glad to see there is a small abstraction between murano and the catalog, by way of the bundle files. | 16:17 |
| docaedo | sure, but then the app catalog starts to look very much like a PaaS .. | 16:17 |
| kfox1111 | that will at least allow us to fix the schema and not break things. | 16:17 |
| kfox1111 | when it comes to running "apps", why does a user care if its iaas, paas, etc? | 16:17 |
| docaedo | but yes, should be able to fix the schema without breaking murano entries or behavior | 16:18 |
| kfox1111 | the app could be launched on solum, which stands up a paas to run it in. | 16:18 |
| kfox1111 | or it could be launched on a vm, being just iaas. | 16:18 |
| kfox1111 | or kubernetes which is another paas, sort of... | 16:18 |
| kfox1111 | kind of half way inbetween a paas and iaas really... :/ | 16:18 |
| docaedo | sure, but the user should be making the choice, catalog can just hold the bits and pointers (i.e. choose to run something in kubernetes maybe with Magnum, or let Murano launch/manage, or heat, or whatever) | 16:19 |
| kfox1111 | the way I've been looking at it, is components are "things to load into openstack services", and the app catalog is "applications to run on openstack" | 16:20 |
| docaedo | ah gotta step away for a minute but will be back - enjoying this debate :) | 16:20 |
| kfox1111 | components don't nessisarily need dependency handling. the user is in the mindset of installing stuff. | 16:21 |
| kfox1111 | apps, users just want to use. so some dep installing really helps that workflow. | 16:21 |
| kfox1111 | kk. | 16:21 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. its a good discussion to have. | 16:21 |
| kfox1111 | so what happens when magnum comes along and says to the app catalog, we want you to support magnum bundles, which magnum handles and are just collections of magnum images and glance images? We're kind of setting an ugly precedent. | 16:34 |
| docaedo | If magnum handles bundles in their own way, why can't the app catalog handle that? IMO we should aim to be agnostic - just hold assets, let the different projects make their own choices about managing all the bits that are in their own realm | 16:46 |
| docaedo | I think of this as something like holding RPMs and DEBs in the same directory, rather than trying to dictate how the package managers should build/manage packages | 16:47 |
| docaedo | there are user experience implications that come along with being agnostic and all inclusive, but I think we can solve those problems over the longer term at a much higher level (so .. uh, let's fix openstack in Tokyo!) | 16:49 |
| docaedo | longer term I think actually the app-catalog-ui getting into horizon is the wedge for that (because similar to oslo, we can start encouraging commonalities across projects through that) | 16:50 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. thats what I was thinking. by being the gate keeper to the catalog, we have some ability to encurage commonality. | 16:55 |
| kfox1111 | like common tag meanings inside the catalog, or catagories if we decide to support those. | 16:55 |
| openstackgerrit | Kevin Fox proposed stackforge/apps-catalog: Add a test server https://review.openstack.org/209933 | 16:58 |
| kfox1111 | docaedo: can we merge that test server? Its kind of painful not having it in the branch for testing the murano changes. | 17:03 |
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| docaedo | kfox1111: will take a quick look right now | 17:11 |
| kfox1111 | thx. | 17:11 |
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| kfox1111 | ok. I think I have a way forward for the murano bundle thing. | 17:14 |
| kfox1111 | i tagged them as type bundle like a normal one, and just put the murano_package_name into the service metadata. | 17:15 |
| kfox1111 | a little ugly, but it will show up as a normal bundle then. | 17:15 |
| kfox1111 | its just a detail the engine has to care about. | 17:15 |
| kfox1111 | lets not do too many of these though. :/ | 17:16 |
| openstackgerrit | Kevin Fox proposed stackforge/apps-catalog: Convert Murano assets to common format. https://review.openstack.org/210487 | 17:17 |
| kfox1111 | thx. | 17:21 |
| kfox1111 | docaedo: what do you think of that review? It seems to fix the murano bundles again. | 17:36 |
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| docaedo | kfox1111: will take a quick look now (then probably not back for a while, contractor here and I'm helping with some of the house stuff) | 17:42 |
| kfox1111 | kk. | 17:43 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged stackforge/apps-catalog: Add a test server https://review.openstack.org/209933 | 17:43 |
| docaedo | 210487 looks great, I'm going to merge it, thanks | 17:46 |
| docaedo | ok, will swing past the computer randomly throughout the day :) | 17:47 |
| kfox1111 | cool. thanks. :) | 17:51 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged stackforge/apps-catalog: Convert Murano assets to common format. https://review.openstack.org/210487 | 18:39 |
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