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| openstackgerrit | Alex Xu proposed openstack/api-wg: Clarify the return code when server have hard-code length limit https://review.openstack.org/181784 | 03:32 |
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| openstackgerrit | Alex Xu proposed openstack/api-wg: Clarify the return code when server have hard-code length limit https://review.openstack.org/181784 | 03:41 |
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| sdague | cdent: you around? | 14:03 |
| sdague | I wanted to spitball about what should be added to the http section to fill it out more completely | 14:03 |
| cdent | yeah, did you see the updates I made this morning? | 14:05 |
| cdent | sorry forgot my sdague ^ | 14:05 |
| sdague | I saw a POST / PUT one | 14:06 |
| cdent | I made some additional comments on your "background" review | 14:06 |
| sdague | ok cool, I didn't look yet | 14:07 |
| sdague | yeh, my concern about sending people directly to the rfc ... is that's how we got the massive missuse of 501 | 14:08 |
| sdague | the rfc is like legal code | 14:08 |
| sdague | it doesn't exist in a vacuum, precedents are also important | 14:08 |
| sdague | so better to cycle back around if there is vaguery | 14:08 |
| cdent | well sure, but if during that cycling around you take some time to review the rfc[s] then all the better for the ensuing conversations | 14:10 |
| cdent | I don't think we want these guidelines to allow people to not have at least glanced at the rfcs | 14:10 |
| cdent | and that for things like 5xx we need catch all rules of thumb (don't use 5xx unless you are really sure you know what you're doing) | 14:13 |
| cdent | a server should produce 500, not an app | 14:13 |
| cdent | and unfortunately we tend to think of the api services as servers | 14:14 |
| sdague | so, I was thinking about this a bit differently, which is that instead of this being a patch on top of the rfc to clarify it for our use case, it is really the entry point document and should uplift the cliff notes of http use in OpenStack | 14:14 |
| sdague | because, honestly, most people looking at this are going to be developers that aren't all that familiar just trying to add another feature to a project | 14:15 |
| cdent | yeah, and we should slow down the process of adding features as much as possible in the name of quality ;) | 14:16 |
| cdent | (not actually serious, but I could almost be convinced to be so) | 14:16 |
| sdague | :) | 14:16 |
| sdague | yeh, well, I don't think that's the job of this spec :) | 14:16 |
| cdent | I reckon the job of the spec is to make sure the apis are good | 14:17 |
| cdent | and the challenge is that there are differing levels of good within and without the group | 14:17 |
| cdent | and different thoughts on the strategies | 14:17 |
| cdent | I think the guidelines are aspirational | 14:17 |
| cdent | others think they should validate the current state and use that as the basis for consistency | 14:18 |
| cdent | given the amount of "oh my god it does what!" in some of the apis, I'd much prefer that the guidelines drive change | 14:18 |
| cdent | unfortunate we've already got so much other change that needs to happen, and that endless drive for features that it is likely that too much aspiration will just get washed away | 14:19 |
| cdent | or ignored | 14:19 |
| cdent | I've tried several times to get the "what are these guidelines for" or "what angle are we coming at this from" question resolved several times with little success | 14:20 |
| cdent | I think, as with so many things, it's incremental change in the belly of gerrit that rules the day. Thus my encouragement for you to put your historical context front and center at the top of the document | 14:21 |
| elmiko | i thought we've discussed the aspirational notion of the guidelines, that they aren't supposed to be hard rules | 14:22 |
| sdague | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/api-wg-http | 14:22 |
| sdague | so... that's my rought brain storm of an outline | 14:23 |
| elmiko | i think the process of improving the apis across openstack is, by nature, a slow process that will involve getting more folks informed about the guidelines | 14:23 |
| elmiko | i've seen small improvements with more folks wanting to investigate the guidelines and take action based on the advice | 14:24 |
| sdague | sure, but there is even a lot of best practice that's currently in the heads of folks, and mostly writing that down, has a big impact | 14:24 |
| elmiko | +1 | 14:24 |
| cdent | elmiko: I guess there is agreement that they are aspirational but not sure if there is agreement on the height of the aspiration | 14:24 |
| sdague | there are a lot of lurkers that just read these things and run with them | 14:24 |
| elmiko | cdent: good point | 14:24 |
| cdent | sdague: that seems a good outline | 14:25 |
| elmiko | sdague: looking at the etherpad, do you think we should keep this as one guideline, because i can see 2 (one for response codes, and one for method usage) | 14:25 |
| cdent | I think your last point, though, is at the core of why so much of these discussion are troubling for me | 14:25 |
| sdague | cdent: which point? | 14:26 |
| cdent | if we model the requests as raw then of course they will work with most libraries | 14:26 |
| cdent | unless those libraries can't do http | 14:26 |
| sdague | maybe | 14:26 |
| cdent | and if those libraries can't do http we should be using them | 14:26 |
| cdent | (e.g. wsme) | 14:26 |
| cdent | shouldn't! | 14:26 |
| sdague | so... by libraries, I don't mean ours, I mean things like client libs | 14:27 |
| sdague | like the DELETE with body question | 14:27 |
| sdague | where it's an odd edge case | 14:27 |
| sdague | and you shouldn't assume that DELETE calls with a body are going to work with all libraries and proxies | 14:27 |
| cdent | I didn't understand why that was edge case at all. It was just wrong. | 14:27 |
| sdague | cdent: yeh, though not directly verbotten in the spec | 14:28 |
| sdague | I did reread a bunch, and whoever called that out, was right | 14:28 |
| cdent | indeed, why your point about "writing down the wisdom contained in heads" makes good sense | 14:28 |
| sdague | but it was a context issue | 14:28 |
| sdague | I agree that if we have libraries that massively violate http in our universe we should call them out | 14:29 |
| sdague | anyway, I need to run and do errands then lunch, I mostly want to figure out if that outline looked sane, and if so, get people to (ircnick) bullets they want to write, and we can patch flood in a bunch of stuff and flesh this all out quickly | 14:30 |
| sdague | because as a divide and conquer we could get a bunch of stuff in, and that would be great | 14:30 |
| cdent | it is sane | 14:30 |
| cdent | thanks for putting it together | 14:31 |
| cdent | (shame about that mapping to CRUD thing though :P ) | 14:31 |
| cdent | I hope its understood that my stance as an HTTP idealist is for the sake of balance, not because I'm (only) a total jerk. | 14:33 |
| elmiko | lol | 14:37 |
| sdague | cdent: heh | 14:42 |
| cdent | there's plenty of "let's just get on with it" so we need one or two "ingrates, purify thineselves" | 14:43 |
| sdague | :) | 14:48 |
| sdague | dude, I'll say again, I'm super happy you are in the middle of these conversations cdent | 14:48 |
| cdent | Ditto, I'm glad you are hopping in to the fray with enthusiasm. I really don't know how you manage the time slicing you seem to do. | 14:49 |
| elmiko | cdent: so, are you talking about more emphasis on evangelism as opposed to just creating guidelines? | 14:50 |
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| * cdent thinks | 14:51 | |
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| cdent | I guess in fantasy world all of OpenStack would include considerably more "active leadership" which is probably another word for "evangelism". | 14:52 |
| cdent | There's an extent in which this entire project is a huge boondoggle for levelling people up in the understanding of all kinds of stuff. | 14:52 |
| elmiko | i can see that | 14:52 |
| cdent | And if that's the case then it would be great to take advantage of it and churn out folk who are teh ossum | 14:53 |
| elmiko | imo, i think we could do more with the liaisons that i think could help drive the change | 14:53 |
| elmiko | +1 | 14:53 |
| cdent | Of course all that assumes that those of us who are actively invested in that idea are not spread very thinly across a giant map. | 14:54 |
| elmiko | good point | 14:55 |
| cdent | and/or that our funders will let us devote the time | 14:55 |
| elmiko | and that's part of the issue, everyone has differing levels of time they can commit to seemingly "extraneous" activities | 14:56 |
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| cdent | I feel like we're gathering some good momentum. In large part because people are forming relationships that allow them to actually understand one another a bit. From there all kinds of awesome can happen so it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few months. | 15:04 |
| elmiko | cdent, sdague, should we bring this etherpad up at the meeting tonight to get more folks onboard? | 15:04 |
| cdent | After that bit of optimism I need some coffee. biab | 15:04 |
| cdent | elmiko: yes | 15:04 |
| elmiko | cdent: agreed about relationships =) | 15:05 |
| cdent | tonight is the midnight meeting, yeah? can't make it :( | 15:05 |
| * cdent coffees | 15:05 | |
| elmiko | cdent: no worries, i'll bring it up. i just want to make sure i understand the intent. | 15:06 |
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| sdague | elmiko: when are meetings? I will probably not be able to make today because of childcare things | 17:55 |
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| elmiko | sdague: meeting is at 00:00UTC (8pm eastern) | 18:12 |
| elmiko | sdague: i just wanted to make i understood you, so essentially i'll show the etherpad and see if anyone wants to volunteer to write a section? | 18:13 |
| sdague | yeh, that will almost never work for me due to family things | 18:14 |
| sdague | but that's fine | 18:14 |
| sdague | yes, my intent is to "fill out" the http section to get everything out of people's heads and onto paper, hopefully quickly | 18:14 |
| sdague | the etherpad is an attempt to outline what I think we need, and to make it managable basically have people submit content for like 1 bullet per patch, and split it up on any authors that want to contribute | 18:15 |
| elmiko | ok, cool. sounds good | 18:16 |
| elmiko | i'll shop it around and see if we can get some interest | 18:16 |
| ryansb | elmiko: I'm interested but can't make the meeting tonight either :( | 18:23 |
| elmiko | ryansb: if you are interested in handling one of the topics in the etherpad just mark your irc nick next to it | 18:23 |
| elmiko | and no worries, i'm sure we'll get to talk about this more next week =) | 18:24 |
| ryansb | elmiko: indeed, we have actual *physical* work sessions. Weird | 18:24 |
| elmiko | hehe | 18:24 |
| ryansb | am I silly and missed the etherpad link somewhere? | 18:26 |
| ryansb | ah, never mind https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/api-wg-http | 18:26 |
| sdague | elmiko: I can write more word things in the etherpad to set the tone | 18:34 |
| elmiko | sdague: if you have a spare moment that would be awesome, but if not i think i get where you are going. | 18:36 |
| sdague | elmiko: ok, more words in the etherpad | 18:43 |
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| elmiko | sdague: +1 thanks | 18:48 |
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| * sigmavirus24 wont' make it to the meeting tonight, if we're still having one | 19:37 | |
| sigmavirus24 | sorry | 19:37 |
| elmiko | i'll be there, but we'll see if we have a quorum | 19:40 |
| elmiko | sigmavirus24: thanks for the heads up | 19:40 |
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| etoews | i just caught up on this conversation | 22:08 |
| etoews | added a link to sdague's etherpad for the liberty etherpad for the api wg sessions. | 22:08 |
| elmiko | awesome | 22:09 |
| etoews | i still can't make it to the meeting tonight though :( | 22:10 |
| elmiko | =( | 22:10 |
| elmiko | it sounds like it might be fairly light though | 22:10 |
| etoews | yep | 22:11 |
| etoews | *adds meeting times to list of things to discuss at the summit* | 22:11 |
| elmiko | +1 | 22:11 |
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